So long story short, I currently have a Pioneer 600W KAC-792S and a 12" Infinity 1220W Reference in a typical Circuit City Qlogic box...
I wandered into a car audio shop looking for something else and they tried to convince me into "upgrading". Here's their deal: SoundStorm 500W x 2 f500, JL Audio 10W0-4/8 10" in a pretty big slotted box for 350$ plus I give them my Kenwood and Infinity...
Now I had them hook up in my car real quick and it BUMPED - a lot more than my current setup, but I held off on buying because I hadn't had time to research. Come to find out I can get all of this for about $300 on the 'net... But my real question is - why did what they put in bump so much more than my current setup? From my research the two setups seemed pretty similar - all except the slotted box - could that make that much of difference?
I'm just lookin for some comments/suggestions on what to do... I really liked how what they put in sounded, but I'm definently not going to go to them for it - not at that price atleast! I guess I'm possibly looking to upgrade, just thinkin/lookin around at the moment and like I said looking for suggestions. So anything would help - thanks a lot!!!
Replies (23)
Swez on 10/11/2003 10:17:53
That's a Kenwood amp number and I think it is an older model as well... 2000 or so? This one is rated at 100 Watts x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo and if bridged, 300 RMS @ 4 ohms. Good woofer match too... 300 RMS, 4 ohms.
The difference you heard, was the port tuned enclosure and a slightly larger amp (200 RMS x2 @ 4 ohms, 500 bridged @ 4 ohms) This combination they showed you, gave you about +5 or 6 dB more bass
than what you have now.
The amp is really not a high quality product, but the sub is pretty good. The box may have been good for that sub too... but as you say, you can buy most of that stuff off the web for under $300. But the box was their ace in the hole.
You can probably sell what you have now for $150-200.00, and apply that cash to a larger sub amp and different sub/enclosure.
How much bass do you want, or should I say... how much of an up grade are you willing to pay for? Can show you a few options that will blow away what they showed you. If you can build your own box, that will save a few bucks as well.
Swez
MUSoccer on 10/11/2003 11:54:55
Swez- thanks for the great response - just the kind of information i was looking for. Ya - its a Kenwood - I don't know where I came up with Pioneer...
How much bass... well I don't need anything that will shatter windows a block away, and I like how my setup sounds now, BUT I really liked how what they put in sounded - it was a good bit louder, and the bass sounded a little deeper, more solid and just better basically. I listen to a lot of rap/hip hop so I like the big bass, but I also want something that is versatile enough to sound good with other kinds. I go to a lot of drive-in movies for example.
$150-$200 was pretty much what I was figuring I could sell my stuff for. So figure I get $150 on my old stuff - I would think about spending between 250$-350$ to upgrade. How much would building my own box save? With the plans I'm sure thats possible.
I basically understand the differences between a sealed box, bandpass, slot port, etc - but what is the difference is quality and sound? If that slot port was the ace in the hole - why even use sealed boxes? If you have a good link or something you could share that would be great. Thanks again guys - this forum is great.
Swez on 10/11/2003 12:38:47
Hey man, just trying to give you some news you can use.
Sealed sub enclosures are overall the flattest and natural sounding for every day bass. The size of the woofer and box make all the difference, based on Theil/Small parameters of the sub(s) used and a box to match those parameters.
Let me run a few products at you and see what makes sense to you.
AMPS:
1. JBL 600.1 http://ikesound.com/product-product_id/186 $189.00
2. http://ikesound.com/product-product_id/642 $270.00
3. http://ikesound.com/product-product_id/1385 $259.00
4. http://www.audiobahninc.com/products/detail.asp?productsID=58
A2801Q Amplifier - 200x2 @ 4ohm - 560 watts total $249.99! available at: http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/audiobahn_amplifiers.html
Now, that's a good sampling of quality SQL amps that are in the 500-600 watt (RMS) range and under $300.00
These will give you more kick and much more relaiable than that Sound Storm amp you demo'd earlier. Those SS amps are cheap in every way!
The best bang for your buck, is the JBL 600.1. It nets +600 watts RMS @ 1 or 2 ohms.
As for subs... there are several (single/dual) subs out there in 10, 12 & 15" versions that will handle that kind of power in a port tuned box.
The larger the sub, the deeper the bass, more power handling and larger the enclosure will be. What we need to figure out.. is how many cubic feet of space you have for your enclosure and pick a
sub(s) that will give you that deep, pounding bass as well.
About enclosures... the best premade enclosures I have seen yet are made by Subzone. Qulaity materials and good designs all the way. They have sealed, ported and BP designs (avoid BP as these are very specialized and you have to know what you are doing with these designs) that will meet most install needs. Not too expensive, but higher than Q-Logic boxes.
Have a look: http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/subzone.html
If you elect to build your own box, figure ~$60-80.00 in materials and supplies and maybe 5-8 hours build time, depending on your skills, tools you have and attention to finer details. Port tuning is the key to matching the sub(s) to the enclosure design you use.
Realistically, your completed system will break down to a dollar figure of ~ $450-600, depending on the items you choose. Minus the sale of your present gear.
How does this information hit you so far?
Swez
MUSoccer on 10/15/2003 19:41:25
Thanks again for the great information - this is definently the place to be for some good info! I think the JBL sounds good, but as I was looking around at different places I found some Phoenix Gold stuff, at what seems like a pretty good price. My friend has some older PG stuff and he is happy with it. Here's what I was thinking of...
Phoenix Gold Octane-R Renewed Subwoofer Mono Amp
250W Class D Octane-R Series • 500 Watts Maximum • Backlit Carbon Fiber Badge • Factory Renewed $199.95
OR
Phoenix Gold Octane-R Renewed Subwoofer Mono Amp
300W Class D Octane-R Series • 800 Watts Maximum • Backlit Carbon Fiber Badge • Factory Renewed $249.95
AND
Phoenix Gold Octane-R 12d Subwoofer
12" Dual 4-Ohm Octane-R Series • Aluminum-Plated Polypropylene Cone • Blue Power LED $99.95
Size isn't really an issue - the Jetta has a pretty big trunk. I took a look at the http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/subzone.html and I'm thinkin I would go with the single 12" vented; or build my own. Depending on how hard you think it is to make a vented box like that compared to the $$$ I would save....
So what do you think? If not the PG stuff - what subs would you recommend(Alpine Type-R, Infinity Perfect/Kappa?)??? If i went with the box(119) the PG 12"(99) and the PG 500W(199) I would be at about 450$ minus the 150$ for my old stuff for a total of 300$.
So in your opinion - do you think the new system will sound 300$ better than the old???
MUSoccer on 10/15/2003 20:09:54
Oh ya - any opinions on www.sounddomain.com? I noticed the amp is factory renewed - whats your feelings on that...
Relax_The_Mind on 10/16/2003 01:33:11
PG still makes high quality stuff but yes as swez said that JBL amp is the best bang for your buck (it puts about the same amount of power of both of the amps you mentioned combined). They are pretty beefy little amps. They are also are becomming more and more common as I see more cars using JBL amps in competitions.
PG used to be one of the top notch gear back in the late mid-late 90s. If you want to buy gear for the name feel free...but PG seems to have gone more into flashier marketing than real world performance advancements.
If you can spend roughly $100-200 less and have a much louder and cleaner sounding system (more to spend on a better quality designed box)
About factory renewed stuff. basically speaking all they do most of the time is switch out the guts or part of the guts to solve a previous problem. Noting the fact that they have enough in stock to distribute on a website (relatively speaking) can make you wonder about the craftmanship of the product (amp).
As swez said about making your own box. It can be fun and very rewarding if you take the time and patience to do it right the first time. Get the most out of your gear. If you get one done at a shop, most likely their "custom" boxes are only custom fit to your trunk not to the speakers themselves.
Swez on 10/16/2003 08:51:16
The 2 PG amps mentioned are 250/300 RMS respectively and less power than the JBL 600.1... which is rated at 600+ RMS (1200 peak) so we are not talking the same critter. The JBL is cheaper, very reliable and will net +3dB more than either of the PG amps which cost more and not new.
Basically, if you went w/ PG, you have about the same power as the Kenwood amp now... just a better brand name, but same power as you have now. No real net gain here.
As for subs, both the Alpine Type R and Infinty Kappa are fine subs for lower power systems. If you go with only 1 x12", the JBL will shred either one of them due to the higher RMS power this amp puts out. (especially in a ported box)
May have to look at a different sub here, if you go JBL 600.1 If you go with the PG amps, either sub will work there. But if you want that extra few dB, the 600.1 and a beefier sub are needed.
SubZone makes a pretty good sub enclosure. Very good materials, well engineered and come in a variety of sizes... sealed or ported. The $120.00 is not a bad price and free shipping is a real plus too.
Looks like you have a fork in the road to choose.... JBL or PG amp. Depending on which way you want to go, may have to find a more potent sub for the JBL. You tell me what you want to do next, then we can take a look at the best sub choices in the power range you need to match the amp.
Swez
PS I don't have an issue with factory refurbished amps. In fact, they are often a very good value if the amp has a full factory warrantee to go with it. I bought a refurb JBL for my subs a few years back and it cost $100.00 w/ full factory warrantee. It was almost $300.00 new back then. So, from my experience, refurbs are not a bad way to get quality gear at well below market prices.
SD is a good place to shop in general. I have looked at some of their offerings and found them to be high quality gear at reasonable prices.
MUSoccer on 10/17/2003 21:00:53
I thought those 2 PG amps were 500 and 600W RMS (x 1 ch @ 2 ohms) which is close to or the same as the JBL. The one thing that was kinda turning me off to the JBL is the lack of the subsonic filter. I heard that those seemed to be pretty important - especially with a ported box. But ya know - you guys are the experts ;-) So either way it looks like I'm going to be in the 500-600W rms range right? So now the next question is - would I be better off for example with 2 of the PGs I mentioned(for some reason I kinda would like a matching combo of speaker/amp - really not SUPER important though) or the Kappas, Type-Rs etc... OR one higher power handling better quality sub? Like I said - space isn't a huge issue (although I think I would kinda prefer to stay with one 12 rather than two...)
Well - its back on you experts... thanks guys!
Swez on 10/17/2003 23:06:39
Here's what you wrote about the PG amps:
"Phoenix Gold Octane-R Renewed Subwoofer Mono Amp
250W Class D Octane-R Series • 500 Watts Maximum • Backlit Carbon Fiber Badge • Factory Renewed $199.95
OR
Phoenix Gold Octane-R Renewed Subwoofer Mono Amp
300W Class D Octane-R Series • 800 Watts Maximum • Backlit Carbon Fiber Badge • Factory Renewed $249.95 "
Neither one will match the JBL 600.1 for power. (1200 watts max) Is rated at 600 watts RMS @ 1 or 2 ohms. Not in the same game at all !!!
As for the lack of subsonic filtering and ported box.... you can easily by inline subsonic filters to protect your subs from lows below the tuning frequency.
Look here: http://www.hlabs.com/products/page3.html
http://www.hlabs.com/technical/crossovers/
Come in several frequency cutoff ranges for subs sonic filters and ~$30.00 a pair. Pick the FMod that suits your tuning frequency.
Swez
MUSoccer on 10/18/2003 00:44:02
Ok - so isn't the higher PG close to the JBL in power - and it also has a subsonic filter... but anyways - what about speakers man?
Swez on 10/18/2003 13:44:25
The larger PG is 50% less watts than the 600.1.
Now subs, lots of great choices and you don't have to spend a ton of cash either. Have a look at these: All are high SPL and high SQ drivers.
1. http://www.adireaudio.com/mobile_audio/drivers/shiva.htm $125.00 each, Good SQ/SPL driver... need a pair of these to get the most from a 2 ohm amp.
2. http://www.justwoofers.com/Woofer_Pages/
Infinity/infinity_Kappa.htm 300 RMS, $185.00/pr.
3. http://www.justwoofers.com/Woofer_Pages
/Infinity/infinity_KappaPerfect.htm 400 RMS, $300.00/pr.
These are all 12" woofers. If you want to go with only 1 woofer, can search for a 12" or 15" that meets power.... just need to know your price range.
Swez
PS If you can get a 2nd Ref 1220W to match, a pair of these will handle the power... 300 RMS, SVC 4 ohm, well under $30.00 on ebay, that'll work and save you some cash as well. A pair of 1220W
Infinity subs has been reported by others to do a very good job on bass in sealed enclosures of ~1.25 cf/sub.
GOTO: http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?xpufu=x&query=infinity+1220w&newu=1&krd=1
MUSoccer on 10/21/2003 20:08:28
I'm really thinkin I wanna stick with only one 12".
Well... In general - what's gonna give better SQL 1 really good 12 or 2 average 12s? And what type of box - vented or sealed?
Swez on 10/21/2003 23:42:34
Single 12" speaker, vented or ported that offer high SQL performance will not be cheap in the power range we are talking about... +600 watts RMS (1200 peak)
Here are a few I have heard about from others that use thsm and are well pleased"
1. http://www.edesignaudio.com/ep2/12a.htm
2. http://www.respl.com/flash_index.html SC or HC series
3. http://www.justwoofers.com/Woofer_Pages/JBL/JBL-GTI.htm
4. http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/audiobahn_subwoofers.html
AW1200X 2001 Model Closout! 12" Subwoofer w/ dual 4ohm voice coils - 700 watts RMS $ 99.99
5.http://ikesound.com/product-product_id/426
Audiobahn AW1200Q $82.00
AMP: http://ikesound.com/product-product_id/186 JBL BP600.1
Have a look about!
Swez
MUSoccer on 10/22/2003 21:29:53
Any one have any opinions - whats better overall sound quality - 1 really good 12 or 2 good 12s?
Relax_The_Mind on 10/23/2003 03:34:46
is that an oxymoron?
what sounds better... 1 really good 12 or 2 good 12s
the more subs you have the louder of course it will be.
the quality (engineering) of the subwoofer and craftmanship of the speaker box is what defines sound quality.
RTM
MUSoccer on 10/26/2003 20:52:44
Ok so I think I have decided on the JBL 600.1 and I really like both the RE and ED 12s.... I see that the 600.1 is stable at 2 ohms, but what do you think about 1? Theyre both dual 2 ohm so I could get 1 ohm out of it right? What do you think the power output would be at 1?
Do you know of any places to buy either sub at? The ED looks like you can buy it from their site, but what about the RE?
And - in your humble opinion whats the best of the subs for the price? (Throw in the adire brahama - it looks like its not that much more than the ED) Thanks guys!
snipe523 on 10/27/2003 04:08:07
if you are going with the JBL 600.1 your best bet from ED would be the 12o.44 but just to let you know they are only meant for sealed or IB installs. They have awsome SQ and will get pretty damn loud. If you had an extra $100 bucks to spend you could get 2 12K.14's and run them both sealed at 2ohms. That wold give you awsome SQL. I have owned one of there K's and an A series and both are awsome subs. If you don't want to spend that much and would want to try a 15" I can sell you a almost brand new dual 4ohm Kicker Comp VR 15". It would match up pretty good with that JBL as you could run it at 2ohm and give it the full 600W. The RMS on the kikcer is 500W but as long as you aren't gain crazy it could take 600W with no problem. Oh and by the way to buy from re send them an email to sales@respl.com with any questions you have about there prices and such and then I think you can call them(number is on their site) to order your subs.
Swez on 10/27/2003 09:18:41
FYI, the Power series from JBL can do 1 & 2 ohm loads and same power at either load.
Kicker is a popular sub, but it is really designed more for SPL than anything else. SPL is good, SQ is fair. The ported designs require a large box to get them to play low.
Swez
MUSoccer on 10/27/2003 18:43:53
Ya - not really interested in the Kicker - I'm definently between the ED and the RE and maybe the adire. Why did you suggest the O instead of the A series snipe? I see avionix seems affiliated with ED - and on the site they are selling Tsunami amps that they made and have left over - anyone know anything about that?
1100 WATT DIGITAL POWER AMPLIFIER
* Series II Class D Mono Advanced High Efficiency Digital Design
* Cascade with an Additional DB-1100D for 2200 Watts RMS Power @ 2 Ohms.
* 1 x 330 WRMS @ 4 Ohm Mono .05% THD.
* 1 x 650 WRMS @ 2 Ohm Mono .1% THD.
* 1 x 1100 @ 1 Ohm Mono .5% THD.
* High Thermal Efficiency Heat Sink Design
* Distinctive Back Lit Logo Badge
* Signal to Noise Ratio -90dB
* Variable Input Sensitivity 250mV to 6V
* Variable Low Pass Filter 15-50 Hz
* Variable Sub-Sonic Filter 15-50 Hz
* Variable Phase Control 0-180 Deg.
* Remote Gain Control
* Current and Thermal Protection
All Tsunami Amplifiers are packaged with a 1 year warranty against defect. All warranty situations are taken care of directly through Avionixx and fixed at our facilities.
Model Direct Price
Tsunami DB1100 $220.00 -
But which of the 3 subs would you recomend?
snipe523 on 10/28/2003 01:06:22
Swez not disagreeing with you completely because I do think the SQ on the solobarics is fair at best but the comp VR's actually have pretty damn good sq.
MU: Avionixx was associated with Elemental for a while but I think they are kind of in the process of moving away from each other. That Tsunami amp is a very good amp. They are made by avionixx but just with slightly lower quality parts than the Avionixx. Now don't take that the wrong way because I am not saying that they are bad amps at all. They are actually very good amps its just the Avionixx are built slightly better. Either way you go Avionixx/Tsunami you should be very happy. The only reason I was suggesting the O over the A was going by the amount of money it looked like you were going to spend. I might have misread your post and if I did i'm sorry. The O and A will have almost the same SQ which in both is awsome, and the A will have an edge in SPL. One thing to look at with Elemental subs is that they are very efficient. There are quite a few guys that run the A series with 500W or so and are happy with it(these are mostly SQ guys) I ran mine while I had it with the Avionixx AXT800.2 and it was an absolutely amazing sub.
Swez on 10/28/2003 09:21:48
Snipe,
No harm in differing opinions... My comment on SQ of the Comp VR subs is based on working with a guy on a different forum as he is looking into Comp VR's 12/15's as well.
After reading the .pdf file details on these subs and LEAP graph plots, there is an obvious spike between 50-60 Hz, depending on the enclosure style used. The F3 point ranges are still pretty high until you get into the larger sealed or ported enclosures. Then the low bass gets better... but the issue, a very large enclosure is needed to get good SQ from these subs. (4-6 cf for a pair)
The Compact box design offers lots of SPL and punch, but poor low end response. (below 40 Hz) That's fine for Rap or Rock... but not high SQ designs. Yes, cabin gain will help kick up the lows a bit... but the basic design Kicker uses is geared primarily toward SPL applications. To get high SQL with Kicker Comps, a large box and good bass EQ control are a given.
Am not saying that Kicker does not make a good SPL sub... they do. But the trade off to get better SQ performance, is a huge enclosure design. (sealed or ported)
snipe523 on 10/28/2003 09:46:06
That is the one main draw back is the large box needed to not get a big peak. I had mine in 2.5 cubes a piece sealed and the response was fairly flat. Now they were by no means at the level of sq of say an ED A, Adire Brama, or RE XXX, but wasn't bad. I bought mine just to kind of screw around with in between subs(I have no idea why the hell I sold my A series :( ) I am one of those poeple that can't seem to keep anything in his car for more than a month at a time lol.
Swez on 10/28/2003 19:45:01
Got it... I think we are pretty much on the same page with Comp VR's. The smaller box (Compact) designs net good punchy bass but poor low end extension.
As one moves up to the larger box designs (Street Machine and SPL COMP designs) the box is much larger, better low bass extension but not very flat either. The peak bass just shifts a bit lower as box size increases... but the peaks are still very much there, better F3 , but still a large spike in the 45-60 Hz range.
Better subs (as you mentioned) do control that peak issue better... but we pay for it too. Much flatter response and they do get a lot lower too.
Swez
I wandered into a car audio shop looking for something else and they tried to convince me into "upgrading". Here's their deal: SoundStorm 500W x 2 f500, JL Audio 10W0-4/8 10" in a pretty big slotted box for 350$ plus I give them my Kenwood and Infinity...
Now I had them hook up in my car real quick and it BUMPED - a lot more than my current setup, but I held off on buying because I hadn't had time to research. Come to find out I can get all of this for about $300 on the 'net... But my real question is - why did what they put in bump so much more than my current setup? From my research the two setups seemed pretty similar - all except the slotted box - could that make that much of difference?
I'm just lookin for some comments/suggestions on what to do... I really liked how what they put in sounded, but I'm definently not going to go to them for it - not at that price atleast! I guess I'm possibly looking to upgrade, just thinkin/lookin around at the moment and like I said looking for suggestions. So anything would help - thanks a lot!!!
Replies (23)
Swez on 10/11/2003 10:17:53
That's a Kenwood amp number and I think it is an older model as well... 2000 or so? This one is rated at 100 Watts x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo and if bridged, 300 RMS @ 4 ohms. Good woofer match too... 300 RMS, 4 ohms.
The difference you heard, was the port tuned enclosure and a slightly larger amp (200 RMS x2 @ 4 ohms, 500 bridged @ 4 ohms) This combination they showed you, gave you about +5 or 6 dB more bass
than what you have now.
The amp is really not a high quality product, but the sub is pretty good. The box may have been good for that sub too... but as you say, you can buy most of that stuff off the web for under $300. But the box was their ace in the hole.
You can probably sell what you have now for $150-200.00, and apply that cash to a larger sub amp and different sub/enclosure.
How much bass do you want, or should I say... how much of an up grade are you willing to pay for? Can show you a few options that will blow away what they showed you. If you can build your own box, that will save a few bucks as well.
Swez
MUSoccer on 10/11/2003 11:54:55
Swez- thanks for the great response - just the kind of information i was looking for. Ya - its a Kenwood - I don't know where I came up with Pioneer...
How much bass... well I don't need anything that will shatter windows a block away, and I like how my setup sounds now, BUT I really liked how what they put in sounded - it was a good bit louder, and the bass sounded a little deeper, more solid and just better basically. I listen to a lot of rap/hip hop so I like the big bass, but I also want something that is versatile enough to sound good with other kinds. I go to a lot of drive-in movies for example.
$150-$200 was pretty much what I was figuring I could sell my stuff for. So figure I get $150 on my old stuff - I would think about spending between 250$-350$ to upgrade. How much would building my own box save? With the plans I'm sure thats possible.
I basically understand the differences between a sealed box, bandpass, slot port, etc - but what is the difference is quality and sound? If that slot port was the ace in the hole - why even use sealed boxes? If you have a good link or something you could share that would be great. Thanks again guys - this forum is great.
Swez on 10/11/2003 12:38:47
Hey man, just trying to give you some news you can use.
Sealed sub enclosures are overall the flattest and natural sounding for every day bass. The size of the woofer and box make all the difference, based on Theil/Small parameters of the sub(s) used and a box to match those parameters.
Let me run a few products at you and see what makes sense to you.
AMPS:
1. JBL 600.1 http://ikesound.com/product-product_id/186 $189.00
2. http://ikesound.com/product-product_id/642 $270.00
3. http://ikesound.com/product-product_id/1385 $259.00
4. http://www.audiobahninc.com/products/detail.asp?productsID=58
A2801Q Amplifier - 200x2 @ 4ohm - 560 watts total $249.99! available at: http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/audiobahn_amplifiers.html
Now, that's a good sampling of quality SQL amps that are in the 500-600 watt (RMS) range and under $300.00
These will give you more kick and much more relaiable than that Sound Storm amp you demo'd earlier. Those SS amps are cheap in every way!
The best bang for your buck, is the JBL 600.1. It nets +600 watts RMS @ 1 or 2 ohms.
As for subs... there are several (single/dual) subs out there in 10, 12 & 15" versions that will handle that kind of power in a port tuned box.
The larger the sub, the deeper the bass, more power handling and larger the enclosure will be. What we need to figure out.. is how many cubic feet of space you have for your enclosure and pick a
sub(s) that will give you that deep, pounding bass as well.
About enclosures... the best premade enclosures I have seen yet are made by Subzone. Qulaity materials and good designs all the way. They have sealed, ported and BP designs (avoid BP as these are very specialized and you have to know what you are doing with these designs) that will meet most install needs. Not too expensive, but higher than Q-Logic boxes.
Have a look: http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/subzone.html
If you elect to build your own box, figure ~$60-80.00 in materials and supplies and maybe 5-8 hours build time, depending on your skills, tools you have and attention to finer details. Port tuning is the key to matching the sub(s) to the enclosure design you use.
Realistically, your completed system will break down to a dollar figure of ~ $450-600, depending on the items you choose. Minus the sale of your present gear.
How does this information hit you so far?
Swez
MUSoccer on 10/15/2003 19:41:25
Thanks again for the great information - this is definently the place to be for some good info! I think the JBL sounds good, but as I was looking around at different places I found some Phoenix Gold stuff, at what seems like a pretty good price. My friend has some older PG stuff and he is happy with it. Here's what I was thinking of...
Phoenix Gold Octane-R Renewed Subwoofer Mono Amp
250W Class D Octane-R Series • 500 Watts Maximum • Backlit Carbon Fiber Badge • Factory Renewed $199.95
OR
Phoenix Gold Octane-R Renewed Subwoofer Mono Amp
300W Class D Octane-R Series • 800 Watts Maximum • Backlit Carbon Fiber Badge • Factory Renewed $249.95
AND
Phoenix Gold Octane-R 12d Subwoofer
12" Dual 4-Ohm Octane-R Series • Aluminum-Plated Polypropylene Cone • Blue Power LED $99.95
Size isn't really an issue - the Jetta has a pretty big trunk. I took a look at the http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/subzone.html and I'm thinkin I would go with the single 12" vented; or build my own. Depending on how hard you think it is to make a vented box like that compared to the $$$ I would save....
So what do you think? If not the PG stuff - what subs would you recommend(Alpine Type-R, Infinity Perfect/Kappa?)??? If i went with the box(119) the PG 12"(99) and the PG 500W(199) I would be at about 450$ minus the 150$ for my old stuff for a total of 300$.
So in your opinion - do you think the new system will sound 300$ better than the old???
MUSoccer on 10/15/2003 20:09:54
Oh ya - any opinions on www.sounddomain.com? I noticed the amp is factory renewed - whats your feelings on that...
Relax_The_Mind on 10/16/2003 01:33:11
PG still makes high quality stuff but yes as swez said that JBL amp is the best bang for your buck (it puts about the same amount of power of both of the amps you mentioned combined). They are pretty beefy little amps. They are also are becomming more and more common as I see more cars using JBL amps in competitions.
PG used to be one of the top notch gear back in the late mid-late 90s. If you want to buy gear for the name feel free...but PG seems to have gone more into flashier marketing than real world performance advancements.
If you can spend roughly $100-200 less and have a much louder and cleaner sounding system (more to spend on a better quality designed box)
About factory renewed stuff. basically speaking all they do most of the time is switch out the guts or part of the guts to solve a previous problem. Noting the fact that they have enough in stock to distribute on a website (relatively speaking) can make you wonder about the craftmanship of the product (amp).
As swez said about making your own box. It can be fun and very rewarding if you take the time and patience to do it right the first time. Get the most out of your gear. If you get one done at a shop, most likely their "custom" boxes are only custom fit to your trunk not to the speakers themselves.
Swez on 10/16/2003 08:51:16
The 2 PG amps mentioned are 250/300 RMS respectively and less power than the JBL 600.1... which is rated at 600+ RMS (1200 peak) so we are not talking the same critter. The JBL is cheaper, very reliable and will net +3dB more than either of the PG amps which cost more and not new.
Basically, if you went w/ PG, you have about the same power as the Kenwood amp now... just a better brand name, but same power as you have now. No real net gain here.
As for subs, both the Alpine Type R and Infinty Kappa are fine subs for lower power systems. If you go with only 1 x12", the JBL will shred either one of them due to the higher RMS power this amp puts out. (especially in a ported box)
May have to look at a different sub here, if you go JBL 600.1 If you go with the PG amps, either sub will work there. But if you want that extra few dB, the 600.1 and a beefier sub are needed.
SubZone makes a pretty good sub enclosure. Very good materials, well engineered and come in a variety of sizes... sealed or ported. The $120.00 is not a bad price and free shipping is a real plus too.
Looks like you have a fork in the road to choose.... JBL or PG amp. Depending on which way you want to go, may have to find a more potent sub for the JBL. You tell me what you want to do next, then we can take a look at the best sub choices in the power range you need to match the amp.
Swez
PS I don't have an issue with factory refurbished amps. In fact, they are often a very good value if the amp has a full factory warrantee to go with it. I bought a refurb JBL for my subs a few years back and it cost $100.00 w/ full factory warrantee. It was almost $300.00 new back then. So, from my experience, refurbs are not a bad way to get quality gear at well below market prices.
SD is a good place to shop in general. I have looked at some of their offerings and found them to be high quality gear at reasonable prices.
MUSoccer on 10/17/2003 21:00:53
I thought those 2 PG amps were 500 and 600W RMS (x 1 ch @ 2 ohms) which is close to or the same as the JBL. The one thing that was kinda turning me off to the JBL is the lack of the subsonic filter. I heard that those seemed to be pretty important - especially with a ported box. But ya know - you guys are the experts ;-) So either way it looks like I'm going to be in the 500-600W rms range right? So now the next question is - would I be better off for example with 2 of the PGs I mentioned(for some reason I kinda would like a matching combo of speaker/amp - really not SUPER important though) or the Kappas, Type-Rs etc... OR one higher power handling better quality sub? Like I said - space isn't a huge issue (although I think I would kinda prefer to stay with one 12 rather than two...)
Well - its back on you experts... thanks guys!
Swez on 10/17/2003 23:06:39
Here's what you wrote about the PG amps:
"Phoenix Gold Octane-R Renewed Subwoofer Mono Amp
250W Class D Octane-R Series • 500 Watts Maximum • Backlit Carbon Fiber Badge • Factory Renewed $199.95
OR
Phoenix Gold Octane-R Renewed Subwoofer Mono Amp
300W Class D Octane-R Series • 800 Watts Maximum • Backlit Carbon Fiber Badge • Factory Renewed $249.95 "
Neither one will match the JBL 600.1 for power. (1200 watts max) Is rated at 600 watts RMS @ 1 or 2 ohms. Not in the same game at all !!!
As for the lack of subsonic filtering and ported box.... you can easily by inline subsonic filters to protect your subs from lows below the tuning frequency.
Look here: http://www.hlabs.com/products/page3.html
http://www.hlabs.com/technical/crossovers/
Come in several frequency cutoff ranges for subs sonic filters and ~$30.00 a pair. Pick the FMod that suits your tuning frequency.
Swez
MUSoccer on 10/18/2003 00:44:02
Ok - so isn't the higher PG close to the JBL in power - and it also has a subsonic filter... but anyways - what about speakers man?
Swez on 10/18/2003 13:44:25
The larger PG is 50% less watts than the 600.1.
Now subs, lots of great choices and you don't have to spend a ton of cash either. Have a look at these: All are high SPL and high SQ drivers.
1. http://www.adireaudio.com/mobile_audio/drivers/shiva.htm $125.00 each, Good SQ/SPL driver... need a pair of these to get the most from a 2 ohm amp.
2. http://www.justwoofers.com/Woofer_Pages/
Infinity/infinity_Kappa.htm 300 RMS, $185.00/pr.
3. http://www.justwoofers.com/Woofer_Pages
/Infinity/infinity_KappaPerfect.htm 400 RMS, $300.00/pr.
These are all 12" woofers. If you want to go with only 1 woofer, can search for a 12" or 15" that meets power.... just need to know your price range.
Swez
PS If you can get a 2nd Ref 1220W to match, a pair of these will handle the power... 300 RMS, SVC 4 ohm, well under $30.00 on ebay, that'll work and save you some cash as well. A pair of 1220W
Infinity subs has been reported by others to do a very good job on bass in sealed enclosures of ~1.25 cf/sub.
GOTO: http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?xpufu=x&query=infinity+1220w&newu=1&krd=1
MUSoccer on 10/21/2003 20:08:28
I'm really thinkin I wanna stick with only one 12".
Well... In general - what's gonna give better SQL 1 really good 12 or 2 average 12s? And what type of box - vented or sealed?
Swez on 10/21/2003 23:42:34
Single 12" speaker, vented or ported that offer high SQL performance will not be cheap in the power range we are talking about... +600 watts RMS (1200 peak)
Here are a few I have heard about from others that use thsm and are well pleased"
1. http://www.edesignaudio.com/ep2/12a.htm
2. http://www.respl.com/flash_index.html SC or HC series
3. http://www.justwoofers.com/Woofer_Pages/JBL/JBL-GTI.htm
4. http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/audiobahn_subwoofers.html
AW1200X 2001 Model Closout! 12" Subwoofer w/ dual 4ohm voice coils - 700 watts RMS $ 99.99
5.http://ikesound.com/product-product_id/426
Audiobahn AW1200Q $82.00
AMP: http://ikesound.com/product-product_id/186 JBL BP600.1
Have a look about!
Swez
MUSoccer on 10/22/2003 21:29:53
Any one have any opinions - whats better overall sound quality - 1 really good 12 or 2 good 12s?
Relax_The_Mind on 10/23/2003 03:34:46
is that an oxymoron?
what sounds better... 1 really good 12 or 2 good 12s
the more subs you have the louder of course it will be.
the quality (engineering) of the subwoofer and craftmanship of the speaker box is what defines sound quality.
RTM
MUSoccer on 10/26/2003 20:52:44
Ok so I think I have decided on the JBL 600.1 and I really like both the RE and ED 12s.... I see that the 600.1 is stable at 2 ohms, but what do you think about 1? Theyre both dual 2 ohm so I could get 1 ohm out of it right? What do you think the power output would be at 1?
Do you know of any places to buy either sub at? The ED looks like you can buy it from their site, but what about the RE?
And - in your humble opinion whats the best of the subs for the price? (Throw in the adire brahama - it looks like its not that much more than the ED) Thanks guys!
snipe523 on 10/27/2003 04:08:07
if you are going with the JBL 600.1 your best bet from ED would be the 12o.44 but just to let you know they are only meant for sealed or IB installs. They have awsome SQ and will get pretty damn loud. If you had an extra $100 bucks to spend you could get 2 12K.14's and run them both sealed at 2ohms. That wold give you awsome SQL. I have owned one of there K's and an A series and both are awsome subs. If you don't want to spend that much and would want to try a 15" I can sell you a almost brand new dual 4ohm Kicker Comp VR 15". It would match up pretty good with that JBL as you could run it at 2ohm and give it the full 600W. The RMS on the kikcer is 500W but as long as you aren't gain crazy it could take 600W with no problem. Oh and by the way to buy from re send them an email to sales@respl.com with any questions you have about there prices and such and then I think you can call them(number is on their site) to order your subs.
Swez on 10/27/2003 09:18:41
FYI, the Power series from JBL can do 1 & 2 ohm loads and same power at either load.
Kicker is a popular sub, but it is really designed more for SPL than anything else. SPL is good, SQ is fair. The ported designs require a large box to get them to play low.
Swez
MUSoccer on 10/27/2003 18:43:53
Ya - not really interested in the Kicker - I'm definently between the ED and the RE and maybe the adire. Why did you suggest the O instead of the A series snipe? I see avionix seems affiliated with ED - and on the site they are selling Tsunami amps that they made and have left over - anyone know anything about that?
1100 WATT DIGITAL POWER AMPLIFIER
* Series II Class D Mono Advanced High Efficiency Digital Design
* Cascade with an Additional DB-1100D for 2200 Watts RMS Power @ 2 Ohms.
* 1 x 330 WRMS @ 4 Ohm Mono .05% THD.
* 1 x 650 WRMS @ 2 Ohm Mono .1% THD.
* 1 x 1100 @ 1 Ohm Mono .5% THD.
* High Thermal Efficiency Heat Sink Design
* Distinctive Back Lit Logo Badge
* Signal to Noise Ratio -90dB
* Variable Input Sensitivity 250mV to 6V
* Variable Low Pass Filter 15-50 Hz
* Variable Sub-Sonic Filter 15-50 Hz
* Variable Phase Control 0-180 Deg.
* Remote Gain Control
* Current and Thermal Protection
All Tsunami Amplifiers are packaged with a 1 year warranty against defect. All warranty situations are taken care of directly through Avionixx and fixed at our facilities.
Model Direct Price
Tsunami DB1100 $220.00 -
But which of the 3 subs would you recomend?
snipe523 on 10/28/2003 01:06:22
Swez not disagreeing with you completely because I do think the SQ on the solobarics is fair at best but the comp VR's actually have pretty damn good sq.
MU: Avionixx was associated with Elemental for a while but I think they are kind of in the process of moving away from each other. That Tsunami amp is a very good amp. They are made by avionixx but just with slightly lower quality parts than the Avionixx. Now don't take that the wrong way because I am not saying that they are bad amps at all. They are actually very good amps its just the Avionixx are built slightly better. Either way you go Avionixx/Tsunami you should be very happy. The only reason I was suggesting the O over the A was going by the amount of money it looked like you were going to spend. I might have misread your post and if I did i'm sorry. The O and A will have almost the same SQ which in both is awsome, and the A will have an edge in SPL. One thing to look at with Elemental subs is that they are very efficient. There are quite a few guys that run the A series with 500W or so and are happy with it(these are mostly SQ guys) I ran mine while I had it with the Avionixx AXT800.2 and it was an absolutely amazing sub.
Swez on 10/28/2003 09:21:48
Snipe,
No harm in differing opinions... My comment on SQ of the Comp VR subs is based on working with a guy on a different forum as he is looking into Comp VR's 12/15's as well.
After reading the .pdf file details on these subs and LEAP graph plots, there is an obvious spike between 50-60 Hz, depending on the enclosure style used. The F3 point ranges are still pretty high until you get into the larger sealed or ported enclosures. Then the low bass gets better... but the issue, a very large enclosure is needed to get good SQ from these subs. (4-6 cf for a pair)
The Compact box design offers lots of SPL and punch, but poor low end response. (below 40 Hz) That's fine for Rap or Rock... but not high SQ designs. Yes, cabin gain will help kick up the lows a bit... but the basic design Kicker uses is geared primarily toward SPL applications. To get high SQL with Kicker Comps, a large box and good bass EQ control are a given.
Am not saying that Kicker does not make a good SPL sub... they do. But the trade off to get better SQ performance, is a huge enclosure design. (sealed or ported)
snipe523 on 10/28/2003 09:46:06
That is the one main draw back is the large box needed to not get a big peak. I had mine in 2.5 cubes a piece sealed and the response was fairly flat. Now they were by no means at the level of sq of say an ED A, Adire Brama, or RE XXX, but wasn't bad. I bought mine just to kind of screw around with in between subs(I have no idea why the hell I sold my A series :( ) I am one of those poeple that can't seem to keep anything in his car for more than a month at a time lol.
Swez on 10/28/2003 19:45:01
Got it... I think we are pretty much on the same page with Comp VR's. The smaller box (Compact) designs net good punchy bass but poor low end extension.
As one moves up to the larger box designs (Street Machine and SPL COMP designs) the box is much larger, better low bass extension but not very flat either. The peak bass just shifts a bit lower as box size increases... but the peaks are still very much there, better F3 , but still a large spike in the 45-60 Hz range.
Better subs (as you mentioned) do control that peak issue better... but we pay for it too. Much flatter response and they do get a lot lower too.
Swez
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