Hey all,
I was trying to do some research and figure out which set of components I would be most happy with in my 4Runner. So far (on paper) the CDT-HD642 (http://www.cdtaudio.com/hd42_cdt4.htm)
3 way seems to be the best. The thing is, it is really an expensive set of speakers. I was asking around the shop where I work, and nobody had even heard of CDT. So, my question is...how good are they? All I have to compare them to is a set of Infinity Perfect 6.5" components, and the Alpine Type R 6.5" components. Just curious what everyone thinks.
Thanks,
Pinch
Replies (16)
Swez on 09/29/2003 19:42:22
A friend of mine went with 4 of these and loved them. Also, several guys have gone to the Zeb and snarffed up that special on CDT CL-61a Classic Comps.
From all reports and feedback I have gotten back, they are great speakers... especially the midbass and a smooth, natural tweeter. (Excellent crossovers too)
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/specials_speakers.html
http://www.cdtaudio.com/classic_series.htm
Can't beat the price or performance on a HSQ speaker line. In fact, my next upgrade will include these too.
Swez
ttocs on 09/29/2003 22:21:33
they are really good from what I hear. Never heard a bad thing about them, but never heard them either. Another brand I would throw into the running is diamond audio. I have a set of the 3 ways I am waiting to install. I have heard these. They are not cheap, but very clean and loud.
Pinch on 09/30/2003 01:20:47
Cool, thanks for the input guys. Just out of curiosity though, how would you stack the Alpine Type-R components and the Infinity Perfects against the likes of CDT or Diamond?
snipe523 on 09/30/2003 05:52:55
I have the CDT-CL61's. This is CDT's lowest level comp and to tell you the truth they smoke both the Infinity and ALpine comps. They have good strong midbass when givin the right power and the tweets and midrange are awsome. The tweets never seem to get harsh no matter how loud or what type of music I play. They are very detailed and leave me with nothing more to be desired. If you are going to be buying them I would defintaley say go to www.thezeb.com and get them there. Right now you can get the Classics for $150 and they have an awsome deal on last years Euro Sport line which is there top line for $539 for the 6.5" set which is an awsome deal. If I wasn't saving for my wedding right now I would already have them.
Pinch on 09/30/2003 16:51:04
Sweet, I think I may give them a try. Right now I'm thinkin' about this set:
http://www.audionmore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?store_code=ANM&screen=PROD&product_code=HD642
It was on the Zeb for a while, but I don't see it there now. Also, how would wiring a 3-way component system work? If it is co-axial (as in most 6X9 3-ways I've seen) the speaker would still be a net 4 ohm load, but would this be the case for a set of separates? So is it going to be possible to run a 3-way set off a bridged 4 channel amp? I was going to go with this amp:
http://www.circuitcity.com/detail.jsp?c=1&b=g&catoid=-8865&qp=0&bookmark=bookmark_9&oid=63683
Thanks again
Swez on 09/30/2003 20:19:15
Nice SQ choices and these will get loud with that amp as well. This is the high end of the line for CDT and yes... 3 way, 4 ohms in all due to crossover design. One of the best in class systems here.
Here's the specs: http://www.cdtaudio.com/hd42_cdt4.htm
That Alpine amp you noted... think it may not be all that you really think it is... even when bridged. A 4 channel amp has a lot of extra circuits you'll be paying for but not use or need. May I suggest that you consider a better 2 channel amp to drive these CDT's?
1. DA2800 Amplifier - 200x2 @ 4ohm - 560 watts RMS total $397.99 http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/directed_amplifiers.html
2. SS-450.2 Amplifier - 175x2 @ 4ohm - 450 watts RMS total
$199.99 http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/autotek.html
3. ZX 7500 Amplifier - 200x2 @ 4ohm - 1000 watts RMS total $559.99 http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/hifonics.html
All these are fine quality amps and deliver the power you need, but not the extra channels you won't be using or needing. The CDT's are rated at 200 RMS so any quality amp that can give you 150-200 watts RMS @ 4 ohms will be suitable. Since these speakers are very efficient, a smaller amp will still net plenty of power... SPL (91.2dB is efficiency) With 150 watts RMS/ch, you should hit very close to 110 dB from these speakers... so why pay for power that will not net more SPL.
NOTE: Not sure if that 91.2 SPL is derived from 1 watt/1meter or 2.83 volts/1meter (2 watts)
Assuming it may be the 2.83 volts they use to derive the eff., rating, here's a break down of SPL vs Power input:
2 watts = 91.2 dB SPL
4 watts = 94.2
8 watts = 97.2
16 watts = 100.2
32 wats = 103.2
64 watts = 106.2
138 watts = 109.2
150 watts = ~110
200 watts = ~112
Any output SPL above 110dB is getting into the danger zone for permanent hearing damage. YES... PERMANENT HEARING LOSS !!!
Keep that in mind as you build your system OK?
Swez THINK
Pinch on 10/1/2003 13:00:32
As far as SPL is concerned, I'm not terribly concerned. I plan on listening at a resonable volume level. My desire is for clarity. As I mentioned above, I had planed on getting a nice 4-Channel amp to bridge and drive the set. However, after reading your responses (and hearing the advice of my co-workers), I think I may go with 2-2 channel amps.
http://www.circuitcity.com/detail.jsp?c=1&b=g&catoid=-8865&qp=0&bookmark=bookmark_4&oid=50838
(The reason for going Alpine is I can get a pretty good deal through accomidations.)
My question is, do you think it is better to get a single larger 2 channel amp, or 2 smaller 2 channel amps (one for each side) and bridging them? To me, it makes sense that an amp driving a 2 ohm load (a bridged 2 channel for example) won't have to work as hard as one driving a pair of 4 ohm loads. I am concerned though that the amp above will not meet my needs as a mids and highs power supply due to the crossover settings available. I see that it has high and low pass settings, but the fine tuning is for the lower end of the spectrum ( 15Hz-400Hz @ 12dB/Octave). Do you think that will pose a problem?
ttocs on 10/1/2003 16:06:06
I don't think you have that just right. An amp at 2 ohms works harder then an amp at 4 ohms. It will put out more pwr, but with decreased efficiency(more heat ect) and more pwr requirements. Think of it as towing a trailer behind your truck. It is designed to do it, and will easily, but you will use more gas....
Pinch on 10/1/2003 16:25:42
Right, and if that trailer were...say, a Nimitz class aircraft carrier my truck would have to work harder than if it were one of those little carts you can put a kid in to tow behind a bicycle.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but efficiency is pwr out/pwr in. So just using ohm's law, a more resistive load will mean less current gets through. If P=IV, and less current is getting through @ the same voltage...power is less. Therefore, pwr out would be less than pwr in (or, rather, even less than it already is due to the natural inefficiency of things), and efficiency would then, be less. Am I confused?
Swez on 10/1/2003 19:30:09
Yes, you have the power idea down well enough and yes, there are inefficiencies that account for a considerable loss when using Class A/B (high fidelity) amps. These amps normally have efficiency ratings between 55-60%. So, a 100 watt input would net 60 watts output. The rest is lost to heat etc.
About bridging... if you bridge an amp from 4 channels to 2, (or 2 channels to Mono) you will get more power output, but each channel is limited to a 4 ohm load min. Any load less than that would put you into a different class of amplifier... High Current (HC) amps. These are very expensive, but net very high power output when used in ultra-low ohmic loads. Good fidelity in full range applications, but more common in sub applications.
You mentioned a 2 ohm load in this last piece... "To me, it makes sense that an amp driving a 2 ohm load (a bridged 2 channel for example) won't have to work as hard as one driving a pair of 4 ohm loads".
Not sure how you came up with a 2 ohm load for your speakers??? They are 4 ohms total per side. If you ran 2 sets (6 drivers and 2 crossovers constitutes a set) and wired them in parallel to an amp channel, that would be a 2 ohm load. A non HC amp will not take that kind of load when bridged. HC amps will, as will Class D sub amps... but Class D is not designed for anything but bass.
Can you clarify your intentiions on this 2 ohm issue?
Again, if you are only planning to run 1 set of 3-ways and the crossover, a solid 2 channel amp is still your best alternative. More power, smaller foot print and stable. Yes... it would be possible to run 2 smaller amps (2 channel) in bridged mode for more power to each driver set. But here again, will be a 4 ohm load that the amp will see. It may be cheaper to do it this way as well
Finally, about filtering... you will only need the HPF feature on a given amp to the full range speakers. The proper setting of the HPF will be determined by how much power and how little distortion the speakers net when the midbass driver is used for say 50-60 Hz and up. The LPF is not used here.
That LPF is more for bass applications whereby a 4 channel amp is used in the Tri-mode configuration. Meaning front 2 channels are for mids/highs (stereo) and the rear 2 channels are bridged for sub(s). Here, the LPF is used on the rear channels to feed subs only bass. (typically ~100 Hz and lower)
Are we clear on that one?
Swez
Pinch on 10/1/2003 21:32:48
First off, thanks so much for your input Swez!
Secondly, the "2 ohms" I mentioned may have been a misunderstanding on my part. I thought that when you took a 2 channel amp and bridged it to a 4 ohm load, it only "saw" 2 ohms (a reflection of a single impedance being shared between 2 channels). If I am wrong, my bad. :)
Regardless though, am I to understand that my best option is to bridge 2 small amps (one to each side)? Like I said before, I am most concerned with clarity, and if using a bridged 2 channel is going to yield lots of distortion I would like to seek another route.
Swez on 10/2/2003 08:11:45
Using a pair of smaller 2 channel amps bridged to MONO (1 channel per side) is an option you can use. You'll want to consider a pair that is matched (obviously) and have a net output between 150 - 200 watts RMS @ 4 ohms. (rating of your CDT 3-ways is 200 RMS)
A brand many are looking at more these days is US Acoustics. You can find them at the Zeb or Crutchfield. If you really want to stick with Alpine amps (because of your contacts at CC) there are a few options to explore there as well. Have a browse at these:
1. http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-j3VSmHahnUv/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=110&I=235USB2080&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N
2. http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-j3VSmHahnUv/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=110&I=235USP200&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N
Item #1 has plenty of reserve power for your system as you get 280 watts RMS @ 4 ohms when bridged mono.
Item #2 is rated at 160 RMS @ 4 ohms when bridged mono. Adequate power, cheaper and less current draw.
If you want to stick with Alpine amps, 60-80 RMS per channel will net adequate power when bridged.
1. http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-j3VSmHahnUv/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=110&I=500MRVT320&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N $299.00 ea.
2. http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-j3VSmHahnUv/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=110&I=500MRPT220&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N $129.00 ea.
Either of these will do an effective job powering your CDT's when bridged MONO. Just depends on how many watts RMS you wish to use. Check these out with your buddy at CC and see what he can do on the price.
When bridging amps, the distortion values are still well below what you can detect as long as you don't overdrive the amp with improper gain and HPF settings. Most guys cannot detect distortions until they exceed ~3% THD. All these amps are rated well below that, even when bridged.
Are we getting closer to an option you can use?
Swez
Pinch on 10/2/2003 17:28:02
Yeah, I think that Alpine MRVT320 will be the amp I go for. I'll get one for each side, bridge them and see how that works. Now, I'm planning on a fairly major project here. Ideally, I'm gonna fiberglass some kickpanels for the components. I was going to use the stock mounting location for the 4" (in the dash, pointed down), and put the 6.5" & the tweet down in the kick angled towards the dome light. Also, I am planning on Dynamatting (Tsunami from CC in my case) the interior. I know there is a layer of factory goo all over the floorboards, but another coat can't hurt. I think the important parts are the doors, and behind the side panels in the back. Maybe another layer on the firewall too. I've got some other ideas, but that is PLENTY for now :)
-Pinch
Swez on 10/2/2003 19:08:11
That's a plan... This amp set should be more than adequate for your CDT's.
I agree that custom kick panels may be a good way to go for high and mids. You may want to consider installing the midbass drivers in the rear door panels. This will save you loads of headaches, trying to fit all these speakers into a custom pod... short of fiberglass door panel.
I have a buddy who bought Diamond audio 3-ways and he bought 2 sets, installed all 3 drivers, one in each door panel on a PT Cruiser. He had to have all 4 door panels custom made in fiberglass and it took months for the guy to get the job done well. Cost a pretty penny too! He liked the sound and imaging... but this install is way over the top.... like $25,000 plus for speakers, HU, 10 amplifiers, dual 31 band EQ's and 4 Brahma subs. Get the picture?
He even had to install a 2nd ALT and a bank of Optima batteries to feed all the amps. I think he removed the rear seats, cut a hole in the flooing and installed the batteries there. Once all this was installed, the PT had no pep due to all the extra weight. So, he added a turbo charger and blew a few rods as the turbo boost was set too high from the factory.... serious game huh?
Well, hope you don't get that deep into this project, but heading in the right direction... excellent comp speakers. What are you thinking about for the low end... subs?
BTW, these amps you are buying soon only draw 30A each at full power. But you need to run heavy gage power wire if you want a decent sub system as well. A HD alternator may be part of your needs in the near terms as well. Not sure what size ALT & BAT are stock on your truck... do you know that off hand?
Swez
Pinch on 10/3/2003 12:45:02
I've got 4 awg wire running back to my amp now, but I am going to upgrade to 0 awg I think as I will also be throwing a sub amp into the mix at some point. As far as my alternator is concerned, I have not had a chance to check the stamp on it yet. It went bad shortly after I bought the vehicle, and I had it replaced. I would assume it is with one similar to stock, but at the time I was not concerned with maximizing my current output (Hindsight really is 20/20). I'll look into that maybe later today.
Swez on 10/3/2003 12:58:13
Yes, knowing what the current and voltage from ALT & BAT are going to be a big issue when you add a sub system to the mix.
I would think, 500-600 watts RMS will be plenty of bass power with a good set of subs and well matched enclosure. Here, a Class D amp will draw somthing on the order of 55-60A max power for the sub amp. But the duty cycle of a Class D amp is so short, that the net current draw could be below 40A nominal.
This much power and a pair of quality subs can be had for ~ $500.00 plus the box. The Shiva Mark III 12 ($125.00 each) is a very good SQ and SPL choice. They can take pretty high power per sub (~650 RMS each) but it really depends on the enclosure. If you go sealed, get a nice tight response and deep low bass as well in 1.0-1.25 cf/chamber.
As for amps, Alpine makes a few good sub amps in Class D configuration and you can get a pretty good deal on same, a nice matched set of amps.
This one makes sense, if you can get a decent price below $300.00
http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-PLSC9Xrt2IY/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=130&I=500MRDM500&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N
MRD-M500 has a 60A fuse, rated at 500 RMS @ 2 ohms but this is at 14.4 volts input. This amp is a bit overrated as 13.5 volts is a good number for most alternator output capabilities... so you're really looking at ~450 RMS in real output.
The MRD-1000D: http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-PLSC9Xrt2IY/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=130&I=500MRDM100&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N is a possible option as you get a tad under 1000 watts RMS into a 2 ohm load. This amp is fused at 80A and the subs mentioned will take that power... but a very expensive amp that draws lots of currents as well.
A major ALT/BAT upgrade for all 3 amps, if you choose this route. Looking at a 150A ALT and a large CCA rated battery as well. (1000 CCA) should do it... but this is not a cheap upgrade either.
THINK it over carefully as you look ahead...
Swez
I was trying to do some research and figure out which set of components I would be most happy with in my 4Runner. So far (on paper) the CDT-HD642 (http://www.cdtaudio.com/hd42_cdt4.htm)
3 way seems to be the best. The thing is, it is really an expensive set of speakers. I was asking around the shop where I work, and nobody had even heard of CDT. So, my question is...how good are they? All I have to compare them to is a set of Infinity Perfect 6.5" components, and the Alpine Type R 6.5" components. Just curious what everyone thinks.
Thanks,
Pinch
Replies (16)
Swez on 09/29/2003 19:42:22
A friend of mine went with 4 of these and loved them. Also, several guys have gone to the Zeb and snarffed up that special on CDT CL-61a Classic Comps.
From all reports and feedback I have gotten back, they are great speakers... especially the midbass and a smooth, natural tweeter. (Excellent crossovers too)
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/specials_speakers.html
http://www.cdtaudio.com/classic_series.htm
Can't beat the price or performance on a HSQ speaker line. In fact, my next upgrade will include these too.
Swez
ttocs on 09/29/2003 22:21:33
they are really good from what I hear. Never heard a bad thing about them, but never heard them either. Another brand I would throw into the running is diamond audio. I have a set of the 3 ways I am waiting to install. I have heard these. They are not cheap, but very clean and loud.
Pinch on 09/30/2003 01:20:47
Cool, thanks for the input guys. Just out of curiosity though, how would you stack the Alpine Type-R components and the Infinity Perfects against the likes of CDT or Diamond?
snipe523 on 09/30/2003 05:52:55
I have the CDT-CL61's. This is CDT's lowest level comp and to tell you the truth they smoke both the Infinity and ALpine comps. They have good strong midbass when givin the right power and the tweets and midrange are awsome. The tweets never seem to get harsh no matter how loud or what type of music I play. They are very detailed and leave me with nothing more to be desired. If you are going to be buying them I would defintaley say go to www.thezeb.com and get them there. Right now you can get the Classics for $150 and they have an awsome deal on last years Euro Sport line which is there top line for $539 for the 6.5" set which is an awsome deal. If I wasn't saving for my wedding right now I would already have them.
Pinch on 09/30/2003 16:51:04
Sweet, I think I may give them a try. Right now I'm thinkin' about this set:
http://www.audionmore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?store_code=ANM&screen=PROD&product_code=HD642
It was on the Zeb for a while, but I don't see it there now. Also, how would wiring a 3-way component system work? If it is co-axial (as in most 6X9 3-ways I've seen) the speaker would still be a net 4 ohm load, but would this be the case for a set of separates? So is it going to be possible to run a 3-way set off a bridged 4 channel amp? I was going to go with this amp:
http://www.circuitcity.com/detail.jsp?c=1&b=g&catoid=-8865&qp=0&bookmark=bookmark_9&oid=63683
Thanks again
Swez on 09/30/2003 20:19:15
Nice SQ choices and these will get loud with that amp as well. This is the high end of the line for CDT and yes... 3 way, 4 ohms in all due to crossover design. One of the best in class systems here.
Here's the specs: http://www.cdtaudio.com/hd42_cdt4.htm
That Alpine amp you noted... think it may not be all that you really think it is... even when bridged. A 4 channel amp has a lot of extra circuits you'll be paying for but not use or need. May I suggest that you consider a better 2 channel amp to drive these CDT's?
1. DA2800 Amplifier - 200x2 @ 4ohm - 560 watts RMS total $397.99 http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/directed_amplifiers.html
2. SS-450.2 Amplifier - 175x2 @ 4ohm - 450 watts RMS total
$199.99 http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/autotek.html
3. ZX 7500 Amplifier - 200x2 @ 4ohm - 1000 watts RMS total $559.99 http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/hifonics.html
All these are fine quality amps and deliver the power you need, but not the extra channels you won't be using or needing. The CDT's are rated at 200 RMS so any quality amp that can give you 150-200 watts RMS @ 4 ohms will be suitable. Since these speakers are very efficient, a smaller amp will still net plenty of power... SPL (91.2dB is efficiency) With 150 watts RMS/ch, you should hit very close to 110 dB from these speakers... so why pay for power that will not net more SPL.
NOTE: Not sure if that 91.2 SPL is derived from 1 watt/1meter or 2.83 volts/1meter (2 watts)
Assuming it may be the 2.83 volts they use to derive the eff., rating, here's a break down of SPL vs Power input:
2 watts = 91.2 dB SPL
4 watts = 94.2
8 watts = 97.2
16 watts = 100.2
32 wats = 103.2
64 watts = 106.2
138 watts = 109.2
150 watts = ~110
200 watts = ~112
Any output SPL above 110dB is getting into the danger zone for permanent hearing damage. YES... PERMANENT HEARING LOSS !!!
Keep that in mind as you build your system OK?
Swez THINK
Pinch on 10/1/2003 13:00:32
As far as SPL is concerned, I'm not terribly concerned. I plan on listening at a resonable volume level. My desire is for clarity. As I mentioned above, I had planed on getting a nice 4-Channel amp to bridge and drive the set. However, after reading your responses (and hearing the advice of my co-workers), I think I may go with 2-2 channel amps.
http://www.circuitcity.com/detail.jsp?c=1&b=g&catoid=-8865&qp=0&bookmark=bookmark_4&oid=50838
(The reason for going Alpine is I can get a pretty good deal through accomidations.)
My question is, do you think it is better to get a single larger 2 channel amp, or 2 smaller 2 channel amps (one for each side) and bridging them? To me, it makes sense that an amp driving a 2 ohm load (a bridged 2 channel for example) won't have to work as hard as one driving a pair of 4 ohm loads. I am concerned though that the amp above will not meet my needs as a mids and highs power supply due to the crossover settings available. I see that it has high and low pass settings, but the fine tuning is for the lower end of the spectrum ( 15Hz-400Hz @ 12dB/Octave). Do you think that will pose a problem?
ttocs on 10/1/2003 16:06:06
I don't think you have that just right. An amp at 2 ohms works harder then an amp at 4 ohms. It will put out more pwr, but with decreased efficiency(more heat ect) and more pwr requirements. Think of it as towing a trailer behind your truck. It is designed to do it, and will easily, but you will use more gas....
Pinch on 10/1/2003 16:25:42
Right, and if that trailer were...say, a Nimitz class aircraft carrier my truck would have to work harder than if it were one of those little carts you can put a kid in to tow behind a bicycle.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but efficiency is pwr out/pwr in. So just using ohm's law, a more resistive load will mean less current gets through. If P=IV, and less current is getting through @ the same voltage...power is less. Therefore, pwr out would be less than pwr in (or, rather, even less than it already is due to the natural inefficiency of things), and efficiency would then, be less. Am I confused?
Swez on 10/1/2003 19:30:09
Yes, you have the power idea down well enough and yes, there are inefficiencies that account for a considerable loss when using Class A/B (high fidelity) amps. These amps normally have efficiency ratings between 55-60%. So, a 100 watt input would net 60 watts output. The rest is lost to heat etc.
About bridging... if you bridge an amp from 4 channels to 2, (or 2 channels to Mono) you will get more power output, but each channel is limited to a 4 ohm load min. Any load less than that would put you into a different class of amplifier... High Current (HC) amps. These are very expensive, but net very high power output when used in ultra-low ohmic loads. Good fidelity in full range applications, but more common in sub applications.
You mentioned a 2 ohm load in this last piece... "To me, it makes sense that an amp driving a 2 ohm load (a bridged 2 channel for example) won't have to work as hard as one driving a pair of 4 ohm loads".
Not sure how you came up with a 2 ohm load for your speakers??? They are 4 ohms total per side. If you ran 2 sets (6 drivers and 2 crossovers constitutes a set) and wired them in parallel to an amp channel, that would be a 2 ohm load. A non HC amp will not take that kind of load when bridged. HC amps will, as will Class D sub amps... but Class D is not designed for anything but bass.
Can you clarify your intentiions on this 2 ohm issue?
Again, if you are only planning to run 1 set of 3-ways and the crossover, a solid 2 channel amp is still your best alternative. More power, smaller foot print and stable. Yes... it would be possible to run 2 smaller amps (2 channel) in bridged mode for more power to each driver set. But here again, will be a 4 ohm load that the amp will see. It may be cheaper to do it this way as well
Finally, about filtering... you will only need the HPF feature on a given amp to the full range speakers. The proper setting of the HPF will be determined by how much power and how little distortion the speakers net when the midbass driver is used for say 50-60 Hz and up. The LPF is not used here.
That LPF is more for bass applications whereby a 4 channel amp is used in the Tri-mode configuration. Meaning front 2 channels are for mids/highs (stereo) and the rear 2 channels are bridged for sub(s). Here, the LPF is used on the rear channels to feed subs only bass. (typically ~100 Hz and lower)
Are we clear on that one?
Swez
Pinch on 10/1/2003 21:32:48
First off, thanks so much for your input Swez!
Secondly, the "2 ohms" I mentioned may have been a misunderstanding on my part. I thought that when you took a 2 channel amp and bridged it to a 4 ohm load, it only "saw" 2 ohms (a reflection of a single impedance being shared between 2 channels). If I am wrong, my bad. :)
Regardless though, am I to understand that my best option is to bridge 2 small amps (one to each side)? Like I said before, I am most concerned with clarity, and if using a bridged 2 channel is going to yield lots of distortion I would like to seek another route.
Swez on 10/2/2003 08:11:45
Using a pair of smaller 2 channel amps bridged to MONO (1 channel per side) is an option you can use. You'll want to consider a pair that is matched (obviously) and have a net output between 150 - 200 watts RMS @ 4 ohms. (rating of your CDT 3-ways is 200 RMS)
A brand many are looking at more these days is US Acoustics. You can find them at the Zeb or Crutchfield. If you really want to stick with Alpine amps (because of your contacts at CC) there are a few options to explore there as well. Have a browse at these:
1. http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-j3VSmHahnUv/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=110&I=235USB2080&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N
2. http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-j3VSmHahnUv/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=110&I=235USP200&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N
Item #1 has plenty of reserve power for your system as you get 280 watts RMS @ 4 ohms when bridged mono.
Item #2 is rated at 160 RMS @ 4 ohms when bridged mono. Adequate power, cheaper and less current draw.
If you want to stick with Alpine amps, 60-80 RMS per channel will net adequate power when bridged.
1. http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-j3VSmHahnUv/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=110&I=500MRVT320&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N $299.00 ea.
2. http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-j3VSmHahnUv/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=110&I=500MRPT220&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N $129.00 ea.
Either of these will do an effective job powering your CDT's when bridged MONO. Just depends on how many watts RMS you wish to use. Check these out with your buddy at CC and see what he can do on the price.
When bridging amps, the distortion values are still well below what you can detect as long as you don't overdrive the amp with improper gain and HPF settings. Most guys cannot detect distortions until they exceed ~3% THD. All these amps are rated well below that, even when bridged.
Are we getting closer to an option you can use?
Swez
Pinch on 10/2/2003 17:28:02
Yeah, I think that Alpine MRVT320 will be the amp I go for. I'll get one for each side, bridge them and see how that works. Now, I'm planning on a fairly major project here. Ideally, I'm gonna fiberglass some kickpanels for the components. I was going to use the stock mounting location for the 4" (in the dash, pointed down), and put the 6.5" & the tweet down in the kick angled towards the dome light. Also, I am planning on Dynamatting (Tsunami from CC in my case) the interior. I know there is a layer of factory goo all over the floorboards, but another coat can't hurt. I think the important parts are the doors, and behind the side panels in the back. Maybe another layer on the firewall too. I've got some other ideas, but that is PLENTY for now :)
-Pinch
Swez on 10/2/2003 19:08:11
That's a plan... This amp set should be more than adequate for your CDT's.
I agree that custom kick panels may be a good way to go for high and mids. You may want to consider installing the midbass drivers in the rear door panels. This will save you loads of headaches, trying to fit all these speakers into a custom pod... short of fiberglass door panel.
I have a buddy who bought Diamond audio 3-ways and he bought 2 sets, installed all 3 drivers, one in each door panel on a PT Cruiser. He had to have all 4 door panels custom made in fiberglass and it took months for the guy to get the job done well. Cost a pretty penny too! He liked the sound and imaging... but this install is way over the top.... like $25,000 plus for speakers, HU, 10 amplifiers, dual 31 band EQ's and 4 Brahma subs. Get the picture?
He even had to install a 2nd ALT and a bank of Optima batteries to feed all the amps. I think he removed the rear seats, cut a hole in the flooing and installed the batteries there. Once all this was installed, the PT had no pep due to all the extra weight. So, he added a turbo charger and blew a few rods as the turbo boost was set too high from the factory.... serious game huh?
Well, hope you don't get that deep into this project, but heading in the right direction... excellent comp speakers. What are you thinking about for the low end... subs?
BTW, these amps you are buying soon only draw 30A each at full power. But you need to run heavy gage power wire if you want a decent sub system as well. A HD alternator may be part of your needs in the near terms as well. Not sure what size ALT & BAT are stock on your truck... do you know that off hand?
Swez
Pinch on 10/3/2003 12:45:02
I've got 4 awg wire running back to my amp now, but I am going to upgrade to 0 awg I think as I will also be throwing a sub amp into the mix at some point. As far as my alternator is concerned, I have not had a chance to check the stamp on it yet. It went bad shortly after I bought the vehicle, and I had it replaced. I would assume it is with one similar to stock, but at the time I was not concerned with maximizing my current output (Hindsight really is 20/20). I'll look into that maybe later today.
Swez on 10/3/2003 12:58:13
Yes, knowing what the current and voltage from ALT & BAT are going to be a big issue when you add a sub system to the mix.
I would think, 500-600 watts RMS will be plenty of bass power with a good set of subs and well matched enclosure. Here, a Class D amp will draw somthing on the order of 55-60A max power for the sub amp. But the duty cycle of a Class D amp is so short, that the net current draw could be below 40A nominal.
This much power and a pair of quality subs can be had for ~ $500.00 plus the box. The Shiva Mark III 12 ($125.00 each) is a very good SQ and SPL choice. They can take pretty high power per sub (~650 RMS each) but it really depends on the enclosure. If you go sealed, get a nice tight response and deep low bass as well in 1.0-1.25 cf/chamber.
As for amps, Alpine makes a few good sub amps in Class D configuration and you can get a pretty good deal on same, a nice matched set of amps.
This one makes sense, if you can get a decent price below $300.00
http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-PLSC9Xrt2IY/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=130&I=500MRDM500&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N
MRD-M500 has a 60A fuse, rated at 500 RMS @ 2 ohms but this is at 14.4 volts input. This amp is a bit overrated as 13.5 volts is a good number for most alternator output capabilities... so you're really looking at ~450 RMS in real output.
The MRD-1000D: http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-PLSC9Xrt2IY/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=130&I=500MRDM100&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N is a possible option as you get a tad under 1000 watts RMS into a 2 ohm load. This amp is fused at 80A and the subs mentioned will take that power... but a very expensive amp that draws lots of currents as well.
A major ALT/BAT upgrade for all 3 amps, if you choose this route. Looking at a 150A ALT and a large CCA rated battery as well. (1000 CCA) should do it... but this is not a cheap upgrade either.
THINK it over carefully as you look ahead...
Swez
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