Ok, here we go, Amp: Kenwood Excelon KAC-X20. Two channels @ 2 Ohm 260wrms x 2 wired to a dual 10" mtx blue thunder full range wedge box first (75wrms? x 2 @ 4 Ohms) and a 12" mtx pro 123 full range wedge box (125wrms? x 2 @ 4 Ohms) behind in parallel. The wedge boxes are so old I am not sure. And the 12" have Orion XTR3 500w max in them now, pretty sure they would be about 200wrms. This might work but it would be unballaced? and the 10" would be louder and the 12"s weaker? I'm a silly man, But, I would like to know what the deal is just the same it you have time to answer this silly question. All the thanks I can muster mister, fmarlon
Replies (23)
Ash on 08/22/2009 07:25:04
Wow! A MTX Blue Thunder?!! That is old but certainly not a bad series back in it's time. Why run both full range boxes? With the subs in them you may be able to build a new box to house 1 or 2 of the woofers for a cleaner setup. Just a suggestion....
Even if the subs had the same sensitivity rating you could almost be promised that there would be tonal differences between the size and design. Not to mention the MTX's have been replaced with Orion which may not be suited to that enclosure.
The Kenwood amp has good rated wattage in a 4 ohm stereo load that it may do a little justice running two of the subs that way. If the Orions are dual voice coil then it can push them bridged series parallel as well. Not as efficient as a class D amp but may do ok with it's rated power as long as it's not overdriven.
Looks like you have some better options here if you take a step back and do some planning
swez on 08/22/2009 07:44:36
Was looking at your other post on the gear you have accumulated and in this case, "less is usually more". It looks like you are covered well on the HU and full range amp for the door speakers. The "bass engine" selection is what needs to be paired down to a well-matched system with minimal woofers and an adequate amp to power the sub(s) you wish to use.
I'm with Ash on the mix and match issues on your present subs and amps. It's not easy to get it right unless we consider breaking the bass system into limited frequency ranges and amp them to compliment each other. (12's are generally more efficient for deep lows, [35-60 Hz] while 10's can be crossed over a little higher, [60-150 Hz] for more punch) Much of this depends on the music you like most and how much bass power you want for the subs used.
Finally, running a bridged 2 channel in MONO to a 2 ohm load is a ticket to amplifier melt down and this can take out your subs in the process. In a nutshell, simplify and let the Gold's here at CK guide your efforts to the best possible results.
Comments/Questions?
Swez
fmarlon on 08/22/2009 10:01:17
Ash, thanks for the reply, do you mean salvage the 2- 10" 4ohm blue thunders and make a new box for them and junk the full range wedge (or take the mids and horns out of the box and seal it up and reuse it only with the 2-10") As for the Orions, they must be old or odd balls also, I searched and searched the Inet for them but couldn't find em. I took them out first and looked at them, 500W max SVC. The closest info I could find mentioned 12" Orion (some model) SVC 500W max ran at 200 wrms. So, I was guessing they might pull close to that? That MTX Pro 123 full range wedge is in super good shape and I am contemplating it's future with maybe better subs and taking out the mids and giant horns and sealing it up also. I don't know right now. Thanks for the clues, now I have a better idea of where to go from here. fmarlon
fmarlon on 08/22/2009 10:22:50
swez, these aren't for the Tahoe I am just trying to salvage them. I am glad I found you guys here. I didn't try that set up in a car. My Tahoe is tight already, I might be able to peddle some of this stuff to my brother or my nephew, he burns up stereo equipment like nobodys business. Oh btw, is it ok to remove the mids and horns out of those wedges and seal them up and reuse them with just the 10"s in the one, or the 12"s in the other or better 12"s or would the cubic ft be off to much? I could reuse the materials at the least. I was a Journeyman Carpenter for 30 years with spealties in cabinetry, millwork and finish. I don't have a shop but I could get er done. As for the Tahoe the American Pro is coming out and the Kenwood KAC-9104D is going in with the new wiring kit for use on the MTX tri 10's. I'll be gentle untill I can upgrade those subwoofers to a more suitable match also..right!...The Big 3 shouldn't be a problem either, I have been working on cars since I was 9 years old. Thank you both so much for all the help and advice, it helps a lot. At least I'm not using extention cords to wire up speakers any more,,,well at least not MY speakers...haha...fmarlon
Ash on 08/22/2009 10:36:30
Usually if the equipment is not too old and the manufacturer keeps spec sheets on file you can look it up at their website. Unfortunately the Blue's may be too old, but if you know someone with a woofer tester they may have use as they can draw up the actual specs per woofer. As for the Orions I found those here:
piertopier.us/orionpdf/xtr3sub.pdf
Being single voice coil your options weigh thin but not bad. The amp and Orions subs match fairly good in wattage. If budget constraints are tight I would opt for a custom box built to the specs in the sheet. Ported or sealed depends on your tastes but the amp can handle either since it includes a sub sonic filter (15/25hz -24db) not far off from 35hz tuning frequency of the Orions in the recommended ported box. Those subs also boast a efficient 93db sensitivity rating which will take real advantage of the amp's power.
I'd say go for that setup and since the amp is not bridged it won't draw maximum current nor have heat issues as bad. Treat it with care and you may enjoy it enough to leave it be.
fmarlon on 08/22/2009 11:23:00
hey, thanks for the link man and all the advice and info. Life is good...Have a good day and talk with you later. fmarlon
swez on 08/22/2009 21:34:58
You can remove the horns for the Pro 123 Wedges if you like and seal up the horn baffles or make a new face panels. I cannot find this model in MTX's archives under that name, but am guessing they are Pro Audio stage monitors. Knowing the spec on the woofers and recommended enclosure designs would best come from MTX Tech Service. If they are pro stage monitors, they may not do well below 50 Hz.
http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/contactMTX.cfm
The 10" Blue Thunders are actually a pretty decent pair of subs. This series is best used in sealed boxes with an airspace of ~ 0.75 (minus the sub displacements) cf/chamber/sub.
I also had a pair of the 12" Blue Thunder subs and gave them to my daughter. After trying MTX recommended sealed, (1.25 cf/sub) they were boomy and sloppy. From testing results, I found that <1.0 cf/chamber was best for power and clarity.
Good luck and keep coming back as needed,
Swez
fmarlon on 08/22/2009 23:00:32
Swez, I couldn't find them either, I looked in the archievs and such, but no luck, just somewhat close....like a hand gernade or a horseshoe toss. Your diagnosis sounds right, I will salvage the 10" Blue Thunders and also the 12" Orions. You know what the sub cutouts are both on the inside of both wedges. I found the formula tables for calculating cu/ft and making wedges accordingly. I bet I could modify those wedges by cutting the ends off of each wedge and come out with the exact cu/ft for each new wedge box. A sealed wedge for the old 10" Blue Thunders and a Ported wedge for the MTX/12" Orion box. We have the technology and the manpower !!! If not, something else will make itself known in the future. Thank you guys so much. ps: the tweeter and mid from the Blue Thunder box were both 8 Ohm so I would think the 10" Blue Thunder would also be 8 Ohm, wrong I just removed one, the numbers and 4 Ohm are stamped on the side of the magnet. never mind....thanks again,,,
I just now email MTX , it will be interesting if I can actually find any info on that stuff. thx.
fmarlon
swez on 08/23/2009 08:43:56
Yep, let the pot simmer a while and wait until the sause reaches full flavor. You'll get a better outcome with the right recipe and time.
Not surprised these wedge woofers are 4 ohms while the mid/highs are 8 ohm units. That's common to give the woofers more wattage as they are way less efficient than horns and tweets. The passive crossovers do the rest to match the desired impedence load to its amplifier. Some of the better systems even allow the use of dual channel amps. (One for the woofers and the other for tweets and mids. (Biamping is the term)
In the meantime, let's wait for some feedback from MTX. I spoke with a tech named Scott a few years back on my own 12" RT's and he sent me complete data on the subs and a box recommendation that was just a tad off.
Swez
fmarlon on 08/23/2009 15:30:01
Good cooking,,,I learned about Fs , Qes, and how to calculate the EBP. And studied sealed and vented enclosures for 10" and 12" subwoofers. I am just get started, but with you all tutoring me I am getting a very good start. I looked up that guy who started MTX when he was 16 or 17 years old and what it is now, wow. Mitek home, LoydIvey.com and on wikipedia. I covered more than I planned on my research last night. Big time. Man, this is more fun than poking a rat with a stick. (I wouldn't do that though). fmarlon
swez on 08/23/2009 18:45:52
Good work! CLAP
EBP's of less than 50 mean the sub is best suited for sealed boxes. Above 50, you can port if desired. Once you get the specs and MTX's recommendations, be prepared to try an adjustable box with wood inserts as needed. If they sound sloppy or boomy, add more wood inside each chamber until you get the best sound possible.
A suggested "Q FACTOR" of 0.8 - 0.95 is a good match. Do not consider a box lower than that, (0.7) or you'll be unhappy with the sloppy bass results and poor power handling.
Swez
fmarlon on 09/14/2009 19:23:41
swez, the mtx guy said that the 10" 4 Ohm Blue Thunders were probably put in the wedge by somebody and the original subs were taken out. He didn't give the specs on either. I guess I should just email again and just ask for specs for the 10" Blue Thunders and salvage them later on in the future, I know something will come along for them, it usually does. Thanks again
marlon
swez on 09/14/2009 21:42:16
I would venture to say that the 10" Blues are fine in a sealed box with roughly 0.75 cf/sub. The 200 Wrms sounds about right as the 12's are 250 Wrms per sub.
This series 10" sub might go down to 60 Hz., and be fine above 300 Hz., as well. They would make good MB drivers with 100 Wrms per speaker. Then a 12" or 15" for 60 Hz., and lower. It would be best if one had a very good EQ and perhaps a 3-4 function active crossover.
Something to think about later huh?
Swez
fmarlon on 09/15/2009 10:19:12
Yes, I was at Wallmart (wallyworld as I like to call em) last night and they have single 10" and 12" sub boxes by Scosche for about 35.00. The 10" are 0.75 cu ft. But, I was just looking for reference.
I have been playing with the EQ and X-over on my HU. It is very hard for me to get it to sound right. Apline CDA-9813. It has a lot of features, let me tell you.
As for seperate EQ, I have had some cheap yard sale ones a long time ago, but I really have never quite been able to set them properly, I guess. I just set it kind of like a rainbow with the right side leveling off and kind of going up. Because I like mellow bass and some mid and really high and loud highs. One of my eardrums got blown out by a big gun in the Navy. So, I try to keep them from buzzing. My ears have been working good lately, but I have deffinate damage. So, I mostly like my music set to how I like it and not most like what it should be set at. I don't really know what those settings would be actually. So, I haven't had too much luck with EQ's. But, I still might learn,,,eh?
Hey, thanks for the into above and I'll put em in my note books. I have started two. I can't seem to remember stuff...hehe....
marlon
ps: MB drivers with 100wrms per speaker (MB?) ? and fine above 300 Hz? Swez, what's that? I thought subs won't take a signal that high. Help please. I just woke up and can't catch it...
m
swez on 09/15/2009 15:40:12
There are many types of subs out on the market today. However, the "old school" ones were a bit more able to reproduce audio well above 500 Hz., and relatively well balanced. They can be used in 2 or 3-way systems depending on how high the woofer remains somewhat flat or linear in the response curve plot. Take a look at this frequency plot:
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-460s.pdf
Note the sub is linear at the lower end of the spectrum and flattens at around 200 Hz. Above that, there are some spikes and dips out to about 5 KHz. This wooder is actually a decent extended range woofer that could be used all the way up to 5 KHz., with some EQ tweaking above 1KHz. Frankly, the low end performance in this plot is not so hot. But it would make a very good MB driver from 100 - 2.5 Khz.
EQing is a difficult thing to master if the listener's ears are injured. To do it fast and accurately as in live sound systems and large club systems, we use the RTA, (Real Time Analyzer) to spot peaks and dips. Then, comes the tweaking of those peaks and dips with a Parametric EQ system. My brother is very adept at this and can bring a house system into target in under 15 minutes. (Years of experience)
One big mistake most newbies are especially prone to, trying to EQ a system at more than 100dB of SPL by ear. The results will not be very good in most cases and the curve looks like a smile w/ a few bumps in the deep low and upper highs. Nope... that won't work in most cases. The volumn levels are too high and the human ear is actually most attuned to midrange. If they start the EQ process at about 85dB, they'll have a better shot at getting good results later.
Also, we want to use less boost in the deep lows and upper highs. This means the mids are attenuated below 0dB as needed and we only raise the lows and highs a few +dB to obtained the desired results.
How's that ring the old bell?
Swez
PS I just awoke from a nice nap too. Nothing like a good nap on a warm day when we can. Had the day off and am contemplating a trip out to the ol fishin' hole tonigh??? The last trip out netted a nice LM Bass. (17-18" long and maybe 3+ lbs) Not bad for this part of the state.
fmarlon on 09/15/2009 22:10:44
Ok , I have the music turned way low when I have been trying to adjust the EQ (cut-off frequency, level and slope. Then after I turn it up about almost 1/2 way and see if I like what it sounds like. It's closer all the time, but not right.
From using the charts and graphs and instructions to adjust it, it doesn't sound nothing like what it sounds like not using that stuff at all. Or what I think it is supposed to sound like, I mean I think it should be full and more beautiful or pleasant or something like that.
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/500/500CDA9815.PDF
Anyway here is the manual of the HU CDA-9813.
I have been on 2 way for years, but swithced to 3 way to practice for my next amp. Because when I finally do get it, I am taking two of the Polk momo's off the main amp and hooking them up to the 2 ch amp I am now using for my subs and using that amp for the mids instead (80wrms x 2 @ 4 Ohms) next step. After I eventually get that ordered amp or some other amp. (I don't know what's going on right now, no movement on the tracking # today either.)
So for me, I am going to be like Captain Kirk; But not! You know... going where no man has gone before. But, apparently, you golds have all gone there already (BIG SMILE)...
ps: the mtx guy sent a reply to my new question. Three models, BTW, Legend, or Extreme. We are going to figure out which one it is next...thanks for that link too.....
m
marlon
swez on 09/16/2009 22:29:24
Marlon,
Have you ever had your hearing tested by an audiologist? Folks who are exposed to combat type percussions, (Big guns and bombs) tend to have hearing losses at some level to one or both ears. You may be one of them. Hopefully, the GI Medical Bill would cover this test.
Once we know where our hearing impairements are, (Or not) then we can compensate for them to some degree. What sounds good to your ears may sound terrible to others and visa-versa. So, we tweak to our own preferences as this is a very personalized experience.
Finally, will look at your HU features tomorrow as I am "dead to the bone" from a long day at work. That, (9818) is one of the better HU's Alpine has put out in the past 6 years. Would like to review its features before making any additional comments. (Than we can dig deeper)
Swez
fmarlon on 09/16/2009 23:37:37
I have medical at the VA, but no % yet. Ears have been tested and matched to pre service tests. Big difference. Hole in eardrum causes buzzing and low and high loss, and 10 second ringing every once in a while.
I just discovered yesterday that the 9813 has a 5 band graphic equalizer as well as HPF, LPF Cut-off at 1/3 oct steps, slope at 0 (flat or off), 1 -6dB/oct, 2 -12 dB/oct, 3 -18 db/oct, and 4 -24 dB. oct. and level ( 0 to -12 dB) adjustments for Low, Mid L, Mid H, High, and they all are saveable and recallable.
I have been practicing setting the X-over (start on page 15) Adjusting and storing (page 16) HPF and LPF, and all those settings for the last couple days. Reading your faq deffinitions and searching on line for other clues about things also. Like the audible hearing range of the human ear 20Hz to 20kHz. And, getting a better idea of what the speakers limits are and the amps and the HU.
It's fun but takes a lot of gas, cause I can't play with that stuff with the car off, the amps would drain my new bat in no time. I haven't let that happen in years, so I keep the car running when I am making adjustments, and then when I drive around to get food and such I listen to what I have done and see where I can improve it. I sit in the parking lot at wallyworld for a couple minutes when I get there and then when I leave playing with the HU. Way out in the middle,,then the security car comes and drives circles around me a couple times. And sometimes I have the back open while I adjust an amp. But, they are used to me, and know me since I have been shopping there since it opened. This is the WallMart that the money truck runner got shot and killed a couple months ago in Lakewood Washington, partial inside job,,people are just sad...
I just notice the 5 band EQ, the other day. (pg 14.) I really didn't even bother to set the clock (had this stuff for 6 years,,,,d'oh) until about a month ago. The Alpine manual is quite thick an I didn't want to get involved with it before now. hehe
On a happier note, the Kenwood KAC-9104D, (you know is not my or our best choice after all) will be here Friday!!! I am grateful to be receiving it, a little saving was involved. It represents 1/2 of a monthly income. It might not be much, but it is a lot to me. I am sure I will be more than happy with it just the same,,,right ?
Sorry about all the babble, I just woke up for my second daily nap, and it was a good one.
marlon
swez on 09/17/2009 08:04:59
Was looking at the specs on that Kenwood amp and I think you will be pretty satisfied as it is 1-ohm stable and say 900 watts RMS and a subsonic filter as well. (A blessing afterall)
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KAC9104/Kenwood-KAC-9104D.html?tp=115
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KAC9104/Kenwood-KAC-9104D.html?tp=115&tab=detailed_info
As for the EQ and other features in your Alpine HU, just keep reading and tweaking so you get a feel for what sounds best to your likes. I have not looked at that manual in a long time, but remeber it has some great features, bells & whistles too.
Also, a young child can hear sound above 20 KHz. However, as we age, that ability fades and most adults over 40 are lucky to hear much above 12 KHz. (Especially if they have worked in loud places like factories and construction or the military)
Swez
PS On a personal note, it bugs/burns me that injured vets, (Like you) get such sub-par benefits and live in poverty after serving in active combat and are disabled for life. OK, so the VA helps with health care needs, but there's more to life than that.
Who can live on well under $10,000 a year without assistance from family, friends and food stamps and welfare alottments? That's just not right! Maybe I am reading this wrong, but vets deserve better than that.
End rant!
fmarlon on 09/17/2009 15:21:04
I have been on the rant many times, but "we can't find your medical file" anger has passed many years ago. Fellow "brothers and sisters" (armed forces fellow vets, what we call each other sometimes) encourage me to get "back" at the VA by pursuing my 100% disability again. I probably will, but it's the relive/rehash situation I dread, big time.
I get by, due to the grace of the good Lord.
Yes, I have been studying and studying the manual (CDA-9813) and fiddling with the adjustments, bells and whistles. There are a lot of goodies to play with, and I am getting use to adjusting 'em on the go, like at red lights now. With CK forum's helping hands and CK's FAQ's , articles and archives I am sponging it all in. Very good forum, I applaud you all....(CLAP)...shear dedication.
I have been studying all of the specs and manuals for each and every item I have hooked up in the Tahoe. And also stuff I don't even have (hahahah). Also the KAC-9104D manual and specs for about a month also. I know what's going on. It's just learning how to apply the print to the hardware. But, I am an apt student of yours now, so we will get 'er done !!! Right !!!
marlon
swez on 09/17/2009 15:31:55
Yes brother! It's an uphill battle to face the VA and hope they get it right this time, but if one prevails, the good Lord will be in your corner.
I'd like to swap e-mails or chat w/ ya on the phone some time. I have a sense we have a lot in common and can encourage each other as well. Have an interesting story or two to share as well. When the Lord finally stepped in, WOW!
You're jaw will drop as I share this story in some detail and I am certain you have a few similar stories to share as well. When the Lord sees his kids being mistreated, he steps in bigtime and it game over for the bad guys.
Swez
PS Off to work now... enjoy your day
fmarlon on 09/17/2009 15:36:43
Me again, MTX gave me enough clues finally to get the correct specs on those old 10" 4 ohm Blue Thunder subs. BTW104: SPLO: 88 dB, Freq Response (+/-3dB) 24Hz - 2.1kHz, RMS Power Handling 150 watts. Release date: 1/21/94 That's just some of the specs. Interesting, huh? They still sound pretty good though. Email mtx and get the specs if you want to see the rest. thanks I can email to you but I can't find that old artilcle with it. I can't find that picture sending thing either, whats the name of it? or I would send the attachement myself...sorry..
ps: just read your message above, it slipped in whilst I was editing this one. , I check that about every day and we can go from there. I fell about the same too. So, have a good one and catch up with ya later.
marlon
swez on 09/18/2009 10:23:32
Read your message and have shot off an email too. when you get it, respond as you wish and then edit the last thread and remove your e-mail addy so you don't get spammed later.
Swez
Replies (23)
Ash on 08/22/2009 07:25:04
Wow! A MTX Blue Thunder?!! That is old but certainly not a bad series back in it's time. Why run both full range boxes? With the subs in them you may be able to build a new box to house 1 or 2 of the woofers for a cleaner setup. Just a suggestion....
Even if the subs had the same sensitivity rating you could almost be promised that there would be tonal differences between the size and design. Not to mention the MTX's have been replaced with Orion which may not be suited to that enclosure.
The Kenwood amp has good rated wattage in a 4 ohm stereo load that it may do a little justice running two of the subs that way. If the Orions are dual voice coil then it can push them bridged series parallel as well. Not as efficient as a class D amp but may do ok with it's rated power as long as it's not overdriven.
Looks like you have some better options here if you take a step back and do some planning
swez on 08/22/2009 07:44:36
Was looking at your other post on the gear you have accumulated and in this case, "less is usually more". It looks like you are covered well on the HU and full range amp for the door speakers. The "bass engine" selection is what needs to be paired down to a well-matched system with minimal woofers and an adequate amp to power the sub(s) you wish to use.
I'm with Ash on the mix and match issues on your present subs and amps. It's not easy to get it right unless we consider breaking the bass system into limited frequency ranges and amp them to compliment each other. (12's are generally more efficient for deep lows, [35-60 Hz] while 10's can be crossed over a little higher, [60-150 Hz] for more punch) Much of this depends on the music you like most and how much bass power you want for the subs used.
Finally, running a bridged 2 channel in MONO to a 2 ohm load is a ticket to amplifier melt down and this can take out your subs in the process. In a nutshell, simplify and let the Gold's here at CK guide your efforts to the best possible results.
Comments/Questions?
Swez
fmarlon on 08/22/2009 10:01:17
Ash, thanks for the reply, do you mean salvage the 2- 10" 4ohm blue thunders and make a new box for them and junk the full range wedge (or take the mids and horns out of the box and seal it up and reuse it only with the 2-10") As for the Orions, they must be old or odd balls also, I searched and searched the Inet for them but couldn't find em. I took them out first and looked at them, 500W max SVC. The closest info I could find mentioned 12" Orion (some model) SVC 500W max ran at 200 wrms. So, I was guessing they might pull close to that? That MTX Pro 123 full range wedge is in super good shape and I am contemplating it's future with maybe better subs and taking out the mids and giant horns and sealing it up also. I don't know right now. Thanks for the clues, now I have a better idea of where to go from here. fmarlon
fmarlon on 08/22/2009 10:22:50
swez, these aren't for the Tahoe I am just trying to salvage them. I am glad I found you guys here. I didn't try that set up in a car. My Tahoe is tight already, I might be able to peddle some of this stuff to my brother or my nephew, he burns up stereo equipment like nobodys business. Oh btw, is it ok to remove the mids and horns out of those wedges and seal them up and reuse them with just the 10"s in the one, or the 12"s in the other or better 12"s or would the cubic ft be off to much? I could reuse the materials at the least. I was a Journeyman Carpenter for 30 years with spealties in cabinetry, millwork and finish. I don't have a shop but I could get er done. As for the Tahoe the American Pro is coming out and the Kenwood KAC-9104D is going in with the new wiring kit for use on the MTX tri 10's. I'll be gentle untill I can upgrade those subwoofers to a more suitable match also..right!...The Big 3 shouldn't be a problem either, I have been working on cars since I was 9 years old. Thank you both so much for all the help and advice, it helps a lot. At least I'm not using extention cords to wire up speakers any more,,,well at least not MY speakers...haha...fmarlon
Ash on 08/22/2009 10:36:30
Usually if the equipment is not too old and the manufacturer keeps spec sheets on file you can look it up at their website. Unfortunately the Blue's may be too old, but if you know someone with a woofer tester they may have use as they can draw up the actual specs per woofer. As for the Orions I found those here:
piertopier.us/orionpdf/xtr3sub.pdf
Being single voice coil your options weigh thin but not bad. The amp and Orions subs match fairly good in wattage. If budget constraints are tight I would opt for a custom box built to the specs in the sheet. Ported or sealed depends on your tastes but the amp can handle either since it includes a sub sonic filter (15/25hz -24db) not far off from 35hz tuning frequency of the Orions in the recommended ported box. Those subs also boast a efficient 93db sensitivity rating which will take real advantage of the amp's power.
I'd say go for that setup and since the amp is not bridged it won't draw maximum current nor have heat issues as bad. Treat it with care and you may enjoy it enough to leave it be.
fmarlon on 08/22/2009 11:23:00
hey, thanks for the link man and all the advice and info. Life is good...Have a good day and talk with you later. fmarlon
swez on 08/22/2009 21:34:58
You can remove the horns for the Pro 123 Wedges if you like and seal up the horn baffles or make a new face panels. I cannot find this model in MTX's archives under that name, but am guessing they are Pro Audio stage monitors. Knowing the spec on the woofers and recommended enclosure designs would best come from MTX Tech Service. If they are pro stage monitors, they may not do well below 50 Hz.
http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/contactMTX.cfm
The 10" Blue Thunders are actually a pretty decent pair of subs. This series is best used in sealed boxes with an airspace of ~ 0.75 (minus the sub displacements) cf/chamber/sub.
I also had a pair of the 12" Blue Thunder subs and gave them to my daughter. After trying MTX recommended sealed, (1.25 cf/sub) they were boomy and sloppy. From testing results, I found that <1.0 cf/chamber was best for power and clarity.
Good luck and keep coming back as needed,
Swez
fmarlon on 08/22/2009 23:00:32
Swez, I couldn't find them either, I looked in the archievs and such, but no luck, just somewhat close....like a hand gernade or a horseshoe toss. Your diagnosis sounds right, I will salvage the 10" Blue Thunders and also the 12" Orions. You know what the sub cutouts are both on the inside of both wedges. I found the formula tables for calculating cu/ft and making wedges accordingly. I bet I could modify those wedges by cutting the ends off of each wedge and come out with the exact cu/ft for each new wedge box. A sealed wedge for the old 10" Blue Thunders and a Ported wedge for the MTX/12" Orion box. We have the technology and the manpower !!! If not, something else will make itself known in the future. Thank you guys so much. ps: the tweeter and mid from the Blue Thunder box were both 8 Ohm so I would think the 10" Blue Thunder would also be 8 Ohm, wrong I just removed one, the numbers and 4 Ohm are stamped on the side of the magnet. never mind....thanks again,,,
I just now email MTX , it will be interesting if I can actually find any info on that stuff. thx.
fmarlon
swez on 08/23/2009 08:43:56
Yep, let the pot simmer a while and wait until the sause reaches full flavor. You'll get a better outcome with the right recipe and time.
Not surprised these wedge woofers are 4 ohms while the mid/highs are 8 ohm units. That's common to give the woofers more wattage as they are way less efficient than horns and tweets. The passive crossovers do the rest to match the desired impedence load to its amplifier. Some of the better systems even allow the use of dual channel amps. (One for the woofers and the other for tweets and mids. (Biamping is the term)
In the meantime, let's wait for some feedback from MTX. I spoke with a tech named Scott a few years back on my own 12" RT's and he sent me complete data on the subs and a box recommendation that was just a tad off.
Swez
fmarlon on 08/23/2009 15:30:01
Good cooking,,,I learned about Fs , Qes, and how to calculate the EBP. And studied sealed and vented enclosures for 10" and 12" subwoofers. I am just get started, but with you all tutoring me I am getting a very good start. I looked up that guy who started MTX when he was 16 or 17 years old and what it is now, wow. Mitek home, LoydIvey.com and on wikipedia. I covered more than I planned on my research last night. Big time. Man, this is more fun than poking a rat with a stick. (I wouldn't do that though). fmarlon
swez on 08/23/2009 18:45:52
Good work! CLAP
EBP's of less than 50 mean the sub is best suited for sealed boxes. Above 50, you can port if desired. Once you get the specs and MTX's recommendations, be prepared to try an adjustable box with wood inserts as needed. If they sound sloppy or boomy, add more wood inside each chamber until you get the best sound possible.
A suggested "Q FACTOR" of 0.8 - 0.95 is a good match. Do not consider a box lower than that, (0.7) or you'll be unhappy with the sloppy bass results and poor power handling.
Swez
fmarlon on 09/14/2009 19:23:41
swez, the mtx guy said that the 10" 4 Ohm Blue Thunders were probably put in the wedge by somebody and the original subs were taken out. He didn't give the specs on either. I guess I should just email again and just ask for specs for the 10" Blue Thunders and salvage them later on in the future, I know something will come along for them, it usually does. Thanks again
marlon
swez on 09/14/2009 21:42:16
I would venture to say that the 10" Blues are fine in a sealed box with roughly 0.75 cf/sub. The 200 Wrms sounds about right as the 12's are 250 Wrms per sub.
This series 10" sub might go down to 60 Hz., and be fine above 300 Hz., as well. They would make good MB drivers with 100 Wrms per speaker. Then a 12" or 15" for 60 Hz., and lower. It would be best if one had a very good EQ and perhaps a 3-4 function active crossover.
Something to think about later huh?
Swez
fmarlon on 09/15/2009 10:19:12
Yes, I was at Wallmart (wallyworld as I like to call em) last night and they have single 10" and 12" sub boxes by Scosche for about 35.00. The 10" are 0.75 cu ft. But, I was just looking for reference.
I have been playing with the EQ and X-over on my HU. It is very hard for me to get it to sound right. Apline CDA-9813. It has a lot of features, let me tell you.
As for seperate EQ, I have had some cheap yard sale ones a long time ago, but I really have never quite been able to set them properly, I guess. I just set it kind of like a rainbow with the right side leveling off and kind of going up. Because I like mellow bass and some mid and really high and loud highs. One of my eardrums got blown out by a big gun in the Navy. So, I try to keep them from buzzing. My ears have been working good lately, but I have deffinate damage. So, I mostly like my music set to how I like it and not most like what it should be set at. I don't really know what those settings would be actually. So, I haven't had too much luck with EQ's. But, I still might learn,,,eh?
Hey, thanks for the into above and I'll put em in my note books. I have started two. I can't seem to remember stuff...hehe....
marlon
ps: MB drivers with 100wrms per speaker (MB?) ? and fine above 300 Hz? Swez, what's that? I thought subs won't take a signal that high. Help please. I just woke up and can't catch it...
m
swez on 09/15/2009 15:40:12
There are many types of subs out on the market today. However, the "old school" ones were a bit more able to reproduce audio well above 500 Hz., and relatively well balanced. They can be used in 2 or 3-way systems depending on how high the woofer remains somewhat flat or linear in the response curve plot. Take a look at this frequency plot:
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-460s.pdf
Note the sub is linear at the lower end of the spectrum and flattens at around 200 Hz. Above that, there are some spikes and dips out to about 5 KHz. This wooder is actually a decent extended range woofer that could be used all the way up to 5 KHz., with some EQ tweaking above 1KHz. Frankly, the low end performance in this plot is not so hot. But it would make a very good MB driver from 100 - 2.5 Khz.
EQing is a difficult thing to master if the listener's ears are injured. To do it fast and accurately as in live sound systems and large club systems, we use the RTA, (Real Time Analyzer) to spot peaks and dips. Then, comes the tweaking of those peaks and dips with a Parametric EQ system. My brother is very adept at this and can bring a house system into target in under 15 minutes. (Years of experience)
One big mistake most newbies are especially prone to, trying to EQ a system at more than 100dB of SPL by ear. The results will not be very good in most cases and the curve looks like a smile w/ a few bumps in the deep low and upper highs. Nope... that won't work in most cases. The volumn levels are too high and the human ear is actually most attuned to midrange. If they start the EQ process at about 85dB, they'll have a better shot at getting good results later.
Also, we want to use less boost in the deep lows and upper highs. This means the mids are attenuated below 0dB as needed and we only raise the lows and highs a few +dB to obtained the desired results.
How's that ring the old bell?
Swez
PS I just awoke from a nice nap too. Nothing like a good nap on a warm day when we can. Had the day off and am contemplating a trip out to the ol fishin' hole tonigh??? The last trip out netted a nice LM Bass. (17-18" long and maybe 3+ lbs) Not bad for this part of the state.
fmarlon on 09/15/2009 22:10:44
Ok , I have the music turned way low when I have been trying to adjust the EQ (cut-off frequency, level and slope. Then after I turn it up about almost 1/2 way and see if I like what it sounds like. It's closer all the time, but not right.
From using the charts and graphs and instructions to adjust it, it doesn't sound nothing like what it sounds like not using that stuff at all. Or what I think it is supposed to sound like, I mean I think it should be full and more beautiful or pleasant or something like that.
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/500/500CDA9815.PDF
Anyway here is the manual of the HU CDA-9813.
I have been on 2 way for years, but swithced to 3 way to practice for my next amp. Because when I finally do get it, I am taking two of the Polk momo's off the main amp and hooking them up to the 2 ch amp I am now using for my subs and using that amp for the mids instead (80wrms x 2 @ 4 Ohms) next step. After I eventually get that ordered amp or some other amp. (I don't know what's going on right now, no movement on the tracking # today either.)
So for me, I am going to be like Captain Kirk; But not! You know... going where no man has gone before. But, apparently, you golds have all gone there already (BIG SMILE)...
ps: the mtx guy sent a reply to my new question. Three models, BTW, Legend, or Extreme. We are going to figure out which one it is next...thanks for that link too.....
m
marlon
swez on 09/16/2009 22:29:24
Marlon,
Have you ever had your hearing tested by an audiologist? Folks who are exposed to combat type percussions, (Big guns and bombs) tend to have hearing losses at some level to one or both ears. You may be one of them. Hopefully, the GI Medical Bill would cover this test.
Once we know where our hearing impairements are, (Or not) then we can compensate for them to some degree. What sounds good to your ears may sound terrible to others and visa-versa. So, we tweak to our own preferences as this is a very personalized experience.
Finally, will look at your HU features tomorrow as I am "dead to the bone" from a long day at work. That, (9818) is one of the better HU's Alpine has put out in the past 6 years. Would like to review its features before making any additional comments. (Than we can dig deeper)
Swez
fmarlon on 09/16/2009 23:37:37
I have medical at the VA, but no % yet. Ears have been tested and matched to pre service tests. Big difference. Hole in eardrum causes buzzing and low and high loss, and 10 second ringing every once in a while.
I just discovered yesterday that the 9813 has a 5 band graphic equalizer as well as HPF, LPF Cut-off at 1/3 oct steps, slope at 0 (flat or off), 1 -6dB/oct, 2 -12 dB/oct, 3 -18 db/oct, and 4 -24 dB. oct. and level ( 0 to -12 dB) adjustments for Low, Mid L, Mid H, High, and they all are saveable and recallable.
I have been practicing setting the X-over (start on page 15) Adjusting and storing (page 16) HPF and LPF, and all those settings for the last couple days. Reading your faq deffinitions and searching on line for other clues about things also. Like the audible hearing range of the human ear 20Hz to 20kHz. And, getting a better idea of what the speakers limits are and the amps and the HU.
It's fun but takes a lot of gas, cause I can't play with that stuff with the car off, the amps would drain my new bat in no time. I haven't let that happen in years, so I keep the car running when I am making adjustments, and then when I drive around to get food and such I listen to what I have done and see where I can improve it. I sit in the parking lot at wallyworld for a couple minutes when I get there and then when I leave playing with the HU. Way out in the middle,,then the security car comes and drives circles around me a couple times. And sometimes I have the back open while I adjust an amp. But, they are used to me, and know me since I have been shopping there since it opened. This is the WallMart that the money truck runner got shot and killed a couple months ago in Lakewood Washington, partial inside job,,people are just sad...
I just notice the 5 band EQ, the other day. (pg 14.) I really didn't even bother to set the clock (had this stuff for 6 years,,,,d'oh) until about a month ago. The Alpine manual is quite thick an I didn't want to get involved with it before now. hehe
On a happier note, the Kenwood KAC-9104D, (you know is not my or our best choice after all) will be here Friday!!! I am grateful to be receiving it, a little saving was involved. It represents 1/2 of a monthly income. It might not be much, but it is a lot to me. I am sure I will be more than happy with it just the same,,,right ?
Sorry about all the babble, I just woke up for my second daily nap, and it was a good one.
marlon
swez on 09/17/2009 08:04:59
Was looking at the specs on that Kenwood amp and I think you will be pretty satisfied as it is 1-ohm stable and say 900 watts RMS and a subsonic filter as well. (A blessing afterall)
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KAC9104/Kenwood-KAC-9104D.html?tp=115
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KAC9104/Kenwood-KAC-9104D.html?tp=115&tab=detailed_info
As for the EQ and other features in your Alpine HU, just keep reading and tweaking so you get a feel for what sounds best to your likes. I have not looked at that manual in a long time, but remeber it has some great features, bells & whistles too.
Also, a young child can hear sound above 20 KHz. However, as we age, that ability fades and most adults over 40 are lucky to hear much above 12 KHz. (Especially if they have worked in loud places like factories and construction or the military)
Swez
PS On a personal note, it bugs/burns me that injured vets, (Like you) get such sub-par benefits and live in poverty after serving in active combat and are disabled for life. OK, so the VA helps with health care needs, but there's more to life than that.
Who can live on well under $10,000 a year without assistance from family, friends and food stamps and welfare alottments? That's just not right! Maybe I am reading this wrong, but vets deserve better than that.
End rant!
fmarlon on 09/17/2009 15:21:04
I have been on the rant many times, but "we can't find your medical file" anger has passed many years ago. Fellow "brothers and sisters" (armed forces fellow vets, what we call each other sometimes) encourage me to get "back" at the VA by pursuing my 100% disability again. I probably will, but it's the relive/rehash situation I dread, big time.
I get by, due to the grace of the good Lord.
Yes, I have been studying and studying the manual (CDA-9813) and fiddling with the adjustments, bells and whistles. There are a lot of goodies to play with, and I am getting use to adjusting 'em on the go, like at red lights now. With CK forum's helping hands and CK's FAQ's , articles and archives I am sponging it all in. Very good forum, I applaud you all....(CLAP)...shear dedication.
I have been studying all of the specs and manuals for each and every item I have hooked up in the Tahoe. And also stuff I don't even have (hahahah). Also the KAC-9104D manual and specs for about a month also. I know what's going on. It's just learning how to apply the print to the hardware. But, I am an apt student of yours now, so we will get 'er done !!! Right !!!
marlon
swez on 09/17/2009 15:31:55
Yes brother! It's an uphill battle to face the VA and hope they get it right this time, but if one prevails, the good Lord will be in your corner.
I'd like to swap e-mails or chat w/ ya on the phone some time. I have a sense we have a lot in common and can encourage each other as well. Have an interesting story or two to share as well. When the Lord finally stepped in, WOW!
You're jaw will drop as I share this story in some detail and I am certain you have a few similar stories to share as well. When the Lord sees his kids being mistreated, he steps in bigtime and it game over for the bad guys.
Swez
PS Off to work now... enjoy your day
fmarlon on 09/17/2009 15:36:43
Me again, MTX gave me enough clues finally to get the correct specs on those old 10" 4 ohm Blue Thunder subs. BTW104: SPLO: 88 dB, Freq Response (+/-3dB) 24Hz - 2.1kHz, RMS Power Handling 150 watts. Release date: 1/21/94 That's just some of the specs. Interesting, huh? They still sound pretty good though. Email mtx and get the specs if you want to see the rest. thanks I can email to you but I can't find that old artilcle with it. I can't find that picture sending thing either, whats the name of it? or I would send the attachement myself...sorry..
ps: just read your message above, it slipped in whilst I was editing this one. , I check that about every day and we can go from there. I fell about the same too. So, have a good one and catch up with ya later.
marlon
swez on 09/18/2009 10:23:32
Read your message and have shot off an email too. when you get it, respond as you wish and then edit the last thread and remove your e-mail addy so you don't get spammed later.
Swez
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