Hello, this is really kewl getting help from people who know what there talking about lol. Anyways i just bought 2 rockford fostgate T1. Which are 1200 w 600 RMS. Now my amp i had 1000 d class sony explode took a crap. Im wondering what kind of amp i should buy and cap. Im looking to send a couple hundred bucks. Ive been searching for both of them. I found a power acoustik BAMF4000-1D class for 230 dollars http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/5057486/vpcsid/0/SFV/30046/order/desc/order_by/sell_price look that the following link. However, is this a good amp? also what kind of cap is good Stinger farad 5? would this be good thank you jason
Replies (33)
swez on 04/2/2009 05:14:21
The RF T1's come in two configurations. (2+2 and 4+4 Dual Coil subs) Do you know which version you have now?
Skip the Cap. They don't deliver the results you'll need with a pair of these subs and any amp large enough to power them properly. A better choice is a High Output Gel Cel Battery in the trunk to help feed the sub amp.
Depending on what sub coils are used in your T1's, the PA 2000/1D or 4000/1D would be fine. The 2000/1D is fused at 80A's while the 4000/1D is fused at 120A's. Here's a copy of the manual for both to review and study:
http://www.poweracoustik.com/pa2006/manual%20and%20catalog/4.23%20BAMF%20MANUAL.pdf
Either way, both amps draw a good deal of current at the power levels they can deliver. The stock electricals in this car will need some modifications.
1. Big 3 wiring upgrade, #4 gage wires
2. H.O. Gel Cell, 750 CCA or higher
3. H.O. ALT may be needed for the 4000/1D amp (225-250A output)
Comments/questions?
Swez
PS Your stock front door speakers are 4" x 6" (Not 4" x 9")
jasonjamesnorth on 04/2/2009 11:28:09
ya the T1 can be both 2 or 4 ohms. I have them wired right now at 4 ohms. Also i was looking at an Orion amp also 2400w D class on ebay for 91 bucks. Is that a good deal? Also, i have another question. When i turn my radio on and turn up the volume sometimes the radio will shut off. Is this because my interior speakers are drawing to much juice and over amping the cd play. Thanks so much very much apperiate it.
swez on 04/2/2009 14:22:09
That Orion amp is a great price if it works properly. If damaged, figure about $80 - $100 in repairs and parts. It's still a great bargain if minor repairs are needed.
The T1 subs, am not clear on which model number you have. Are these both T112D2 or T112D4's? Need to know which model you have to insure the best amp fit for them.
As for the HU turning off at high volume settings, that often means there is a shorted speaker wire on one channel. The easiest way to find out which one is giving ya trouble, is to use an Ohmeter and measure resistance of each speaker at the HU speaker outputs. (Output harness disconnected from the HU)
If the connections and speakers are good, the meter will read just under 4 ohms. If you find one that reads below 1.5 ohms, that is likely to be the problem child and you'll have to check the wiring and speaker for shorting against the mounting panel. (A few stray wires are enough to cause a problem)
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/2/2009 16:05:29
Sorry about not being clear about which subs i have. I have the T112d2. Never use an ohmeter guess ill look that up lol.
TO be clear on what i have.
Hu- alpine cda 9855
6"x9" infinity reference 9603i
4"x6" think thier infinity also not sure how to take the door apart to check
Lighting Audio 4 gauge ground and power wire. With 40 amp fuse
RCA scosche
Speaker wire 12 gauge high purity copper speaker cable
Battery Titanium 870 amp 700 cold crank amps
Alternator not sure
Also i was wondering which HU is better. Alpine cda 9855 "which is currently installed" or Sony CDX-MP70
The sony HU and Infinity speaker where already installed when i bought the car. Just so you know
swez on 04/2/2009 21:24:35
This Sony HU came out in 2002, but has adequate features if you wish to keep it for now. If you wanted to add and Aux In for MP3 or I-Pod, that's another story. Speakers mentioned are correct for this model car.
The power cable you have now will need to be changed if you go for one of the larger amps mentioned before. #4 is good up to 80-100 A's, depending on total length. 1/0 would be required if you went above 120A's.
Tech Tip: Keep your #4 handy as it will be needed for your Big 3 wiring upgrade.
I believe the stock ALT in this package is only 75-80 A's at full output. At idle, figure 50% of that is available. The vehicle needs about 40-50A's to operate all main electricals. That leaves little margin for high power amplifiers w/o a H.O. ALT. (~200 + A's at full output)
What I am trying to share with you, think it through! Get the knowledge before diving in deep and count the cost VS benefits. This is a big set of steps in time & $$$.
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/3/2009 01:41:05
Thanks for all the advice. Sucks i need so much more. However hopefully will your help ill have the system i always wanted and dont have to worrie about messing my car up. Also with the amp im not going to get the orion ive been betting on amp though ebay.
So now a need a amp, new power cable, new alt, a H.O battery
swez on 04/3/2009 02:32:05
Don't mean to discourage you here, but am giving you the longer view of what it will take to get there. If your not planning to compete heavily in DB Drags, you can build this system in stages as time and $$$ permits.
Frankly, you could easily start with one amp and one sub initially. The amp will need to deliver 500-600 watts RMS @ 2 - 4 ohms. A fine amp if you can find it at a great price, would be the JL 500/1. It has excellent features, has been a proven product for years and a used one should not be too hard to find off ebay. Going this route will buy you time and not waste $$$ on inferior gear.
Using one amp for now, will power 1 or 2 subs w/o expensive electrical upgrades right off the bat. If you want more bass later, then you'll need the H.O. ALT and another 500/1. (One amp per sub)
As for the sub enclosure, if you can build your own, it will cost about $85.00 in materials at most. Go ported if you like Rap or Hip Hop. If you like Jazz, Rock and such, sealed is a good choice, smaller and less work too.
There's no reason not to do this in stages. If you plan ahead well, the results will come when the $$$ is available.
Comments?
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/3/2009 11:58:18
I already have a box. Its Q logic ported in the center. Money isn't the problem, just time is. Im a very impatient person. Always seems i have the hardest time with anything i try to do. Thank you so much. jason
swez on 04/3/2009 17:42:29
What is the model # of that Q-Logic box you have now?
My Dr. Phil hat is on: Impatience and lack of experience often makes any hobby a very expensive series of costly mistakes, lots of frustration and damaged gear. Unfortunately, the only cure for impatience is time, experience and a wiser buddy to watch our backside. ;-)
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/3/2009 18:55:19
I have to go check on the box. I would right now but its raining and freezeing right now in michigan ****ty ass weather. This isn't the frist system I ever had. I know a little bit. However it nice to have someone who actually knows. However, hopefully ill win a JL 1000/1 amp. Ive been looking up new alternators. So lets say i get a new alternator like 200 + will i still need a battery in the trunk. Also when u referred to the BIG 3 what excatly does that mean. Thank jason P.S Dr. Phil hat is on LOL
swez on 04/3/2009 19:49:59
Michigan huh? Same here... Western burbs of Detroit to be more specific. (Yeah, spring is trying to arrive, but another week or 2 should be on track again) Have seen this cycle for over 50 years and remember winters that were much worse than we have seen in the past 10 years. I track it patiently as the Trout season opener is now here. Time to break out the fly fishing gear and get ready.
The Big 3:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/cgi-bin/car_audio_faq/faq.cgi?g3481
A JL Slash 1000/1 would be a great option here. It's one of the best amps out there for design, reliability and versatility. JL engineers came up with a real winning package with this amp series.
This amp draws just under 100A's at full power. A typical vehicle needs 40-60A's to operate all main electrical systems and usually 20-30A's available for add ons can be tolerated.
GM used the CS-130 ALT for most cars in the late 80's to present. This ALT produces about 55 A's at idle and a max of 105 A's at 2200 RPM and above. (Note the peak output requires cruising speed RPMs to get the power up)
At idle and lights, A/C-Blower and a few other circuits on, will use up
most of the current draw available and that's all she wrote. The Big 3 wiring upgrade helps lower the wiring resistance and allows more efficient transfer of watts to the entire electrical system. That's why we recommend it so often in larger audio installs.
As for local H.O. alternator suppliers, consider www.motorcityreman.com. They are located in Eastpoint MI and offer a wide range of H.O. ALTs for common US made cars. Their prices are very reasonable and if you live near Detroit, go pick one up and save on S/H if it makes sense. "I want it All... I want it Now".
http://www.motorcityreman.com/
http://www.motorcityreman.com/high-amp-alternators-pontiac-sunfire.html (The list price is "steep" for the 200A model, so get the right model number and shop their e-bay site)
There are 2 ways to go on this install:
1. Use the stock ALT with a smaller diameter pully and add a 2nd H.O battery in the trunk. Here, it would be wise to use a dual ALT charging device called a Battery Isolator Kit. (More on that later)
2. The more expensive route is a H.O. ALT and only one battery for the whole system. Here, we look for >100A's output at idle speeds and these often have smaller diameter pullies as well. (The faster the ALT spins VS engine RPM, the more power the ALT will deliver at low engine RPMs.
Does this car use the GM Quad-Four engine package? Man, I was impressed the first time I drove one of those. They were a bit doggy below 3,000 RPM, but above that threshold, this engine came to life rapidly.
Comments?
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/4/2009 02:15:08
you like the little sunfire lol its ok im not really sure if thier is a Quad four engine package. Its a 4 banger with a 2.4 twin turbo. I'll do the big 3 my best friend dad a auto macanic ill print out the dirtections. Hopefull i win the amp.
jasonjamesnorth on 04/4/2009 02:15:35
oh ya i live in flint michigan by the way and was in detriot today myself lol
swez on 04/4/2009 12:12:20
Yeah, nice little car for the money and I would think it good on gas as long as the turbos are not used too much. I looked it up and they do not mention the Quad four engine package on the GT model.
I hope you win that amp on ebay. It's a nice piece of gear and will give your subs some serious bump too. A new one is just under $1,000.00, but a good used price would be under $300.00.
Swez
PS Did not mention this before, but we are PG site at CK. Even though we have filters, we ask all users to refrain from "colorful language". Thanks in advance for your cooperation. SMILE
jasonjamesnorth on 04/4/2009 14:28:59
ya the car is good on gas. It ride ruff tho doesn't help that i have some 17 inch verda scropions on it. Sorry about the language totally understand.
swez on 04/5/2009 11:35:31
Thanks for your cooperation on the language thing. CK is different from most other car audio sites and we like it that way.
We don't flame others that come for help or dis their product selections either. Ck is all about quality information in a professional style. We hope you like the difference.
Swez USFLAG
jasonjamesnorth on 04/5/2009 20:07:34
Hey swez if i win the Al Amp would i stilll need to install a 1/0 guage wire because its only 100 max amps. Also if i buy a H.0 alternator will i need to do the BIG 3 wireing. Thanks jason
swez on 04/6/2009 12:35:47
Any amp package that draws less than 100 A's, #4 gage wire is good. If the wire goes longer than ~16 feet, some voltage drops show up. We generally try to avoid voltage drops of more than 1/2 volt on the main line. (We go larger wiring to eliminate that)
Either way, most will benefit from the Big 3 upgrade. Factory stock wires alone are not designed for the added current of larger amplifiers.
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/7/2009 10:23:25
Hey Swez, I got the new power cable. 1/0 gauage. Hopefully i win the amp by tonight ill know so far im the leader. winning it at 355 dollars with a max bid at 450 for the jl 1000/1 amp
jasonjamesnorth on 04/7/2009 21:26:39
Hey Swez, i won the amp im so pumped lol. Anyways with shiping which will take 4-9 days i paid 420. SO next step big 3 wire and installing power cord.
swez on 04/7/2009 23:42:28
Congratulations on winning a fine amp! CLAP You're going to love this amp!
If this is the only amp you plan to install, looking hard for a #2 gage power/ground kit will do. (#2 is rated for 160A's, but hard to find) If that is not possible, then 1/0, (Rated at 300A's is your choice and use the present #4 you have now for the Big 3 upgrade. With a #2 or 1/0 line, you can easily add a modest 2 or 4 channel amp to bring up the Mid/Highs too.
Comments?
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/7/2009 23:56:59
already have the 1/0 gage. Im going to go bu the end fitting for the #4 to do the Big 3 upgrade. Have my friends dad do it for me.
swez on 04/8/2009 00:10:25
You will need 6 crimp on ring terminals that accept #4 gage wires. The rest is easy for a guy with the right tools.
Note: Try the install w/o an extra battery initially and see if your electrical system can handle the sub amp w/o major light dimming issues at high Bass SPL. If the dimming gets too bad, (Low RPM) we'll have to consider a buffer battery in the trunk to keep the amp well-fed with current draw demands.
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/8/2009 10:57:39
ok thanks. Ya hopefully sometime next week ill have everything finally up and runing. Swez honestly how load is this going to be. Also with the JL amp being 1000 RMS each speaker is 600 RMS so the amp shouldnt beable to blow the speaker.
swez on 04/8/2009 13:09:10
You'll be fine as this is a balance between RMS power to the subs and keeping the lights from dimming real bad on deep bass hits.
One thing most guys don't understand/get, are the relationship between power to their subs, sub efficiency, enclosure efficiencies, "cabin gain affects" and overall output SPL. This is complex and takes time to learn, but will give you a few highlights to whet the appitite.
1. SPL, (How much sound pressure is produced) is not a linear function... it's logrithmic. Say what there Swez? Well, let's look at RMS Power vs SPL output and driver eff. Here's the plot: A sub that is rated at (88dB/1W@ 1m) eff will produce the following SPL levels at a given input RMS Power input:
Eff: RMS power: SPL:
88.0 2 watts 88dB
88.0 4 watts 91dB
88.0 8 watts 93dB
88.0 16 watts 96dB
88.0 32 watts 99dB
88.0 64 watts 102dB
88.0 128 watts 105dB
88.0 256 watts 108dB
88.0 512 watts 111dB
88.0 1024 watts 114dB
Each time we double the RMS power (watts) to a given speaker, we add +3 dB more SPL. A +3dB bump seems noticable at low wattage input, but as we get past 100 dB, the same +3 dB is barely heard, but is taxing on the power supply, (Charging system) to feed the amp.
To give us an acoutical doubling of what the ear hears, we need a +9 dB bump. (90 dB vs 99dB is doubling the power we actually hear. Got all that?
Now, let's look at a few freebies to up the ante.
1. Cabin gain will yield a + 10-15dB more SPL, depending on the vehicle we are working with. Larger SUV's, Hatchbacks and extended cab trucks are closer to +15 free dB of low bass. Sedans and trunk mounted subs are closer to +10dB. (Interior airspace gives us a nice bump in extra bass around 55-70 Hz.) Not bad huh?
2. The type of enclosure used will also help in that department. Sealed boxes are the smoothest in response curves, but not as efficient as ported or Bandpass enclosures.
a. The sealed box is most natural for SQ and SQL systems.
b. The port tuned box will net a +3dB bump in the tuning frequency
range. (30-45 Hz.)
c. The BP tuned box will give us a +3-5dB bump in a very narrow band of bass, depending on the design used.
3. If we double the cone size and run the same power to each sub, we pick up another +3dB of bass.
The trick is to get as many free dB as possible, without over-extending the woofer's power handling abilities. In your case, the JL 1000/1 will deliver a solid 500 watts RMS per sub. (Nothing to sneeze at here Jason)
FYI: This is much more bass SPL than most Bass Players use on stage with their amps. The bulk of the Bass SPL comes from the sound reinforcement system up front and not on stage. (Huge amps and 15"-18" subs on each side of the stage or in front and below the stage do all the heavy lifting)
OK, digest that a while as best you can. Either way, your ride is going to have some serious Bass SPL after it's dialed in properly.
Finally, if you don't have a Digital Multimeter already, borrrow or buy one as you will need it when the tweaking process comes later. ($20.00 will get you a nice meter and it will become part of every good installer's tool kit too)
Comments/Questions?
Swez
PS Not to worry... I've been down this path many times with others and they came out very pleased with the results. So will you! SMILE
jasonjamesnorth on 04/9/2009 15:50:21
Maybe one day i can come down and see u.
swez on 04/9/2009 19:28:18
That might work as it warms up... if you don't mind working with an older guy... hehe (Am probably your parents age) GRIN
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/9/2009 21:58:34
not at all. Just you would know how to turn it in just right and would really appericate it. could possiable give ya a few bucks.
swez on 04/9/2009 22:19:09
Yes, have the tools and such as needed and always glad to meet a fellow CK'er too. Like working with JL products as they are just superb gear and tops in this game! (once one knows the drill)
Looking ahead, let's see how the weather and our schedule match. Do you have another scheduled stop in Detroit soon?
Swez
PS Sony xPlod vs JL, "We're not in Kansas anymore Toto"! Not even in the same zip code. ;-)
jasonjamesnorth on 04/10/2009 14:02:37
lol like the comment. Um im usally free. Besides the next two weeks because of finals. After that im free. Kinda have to play it by ear. Is thier only a certian time you are available, i can work around your schedule. Thank jason
swez on 04/10/2009 16:43:03
Get your finals out of the way and we'll just play things by ear. It's only a 90 minute drive from Flint to where I live and most of it's freeway driving too. By then, the weather should be more cooperative.
Are you familiar with US-23 south to I-96 east to Livonia, MI route? Am only 5 miles south of I-96 in Garden City, MI. (Map it)
Saturday's are good here right now. (after 2:00 PM) Depending on the work required, allow an hour or so for the dial in steps and any other tweaking that is needed.
Sound good to you?
Swez
PS When we get closer to the end of this month, we can swap e-mails and phone #'s to discuss your needs ahead of time.
jasonjamesnorth on 05/13/2009 23:09:31
They swez sorry its been a little while since i last been on here. So anyways ya this system is totally ridiculas lol. I haven't gotten the big 3 wireing done yet nor did the 0 gauage wire never came in so i didn't get that installed yet. However, i only have the amp like a 1/3 or so and the EQ on the HU all the way down and the Extra BS all the way down and it just slams to the point where my friends say that cant handle it. Its so funny when i have my lights on at night looks like strob lights anyways hopefully i can get the H O alt so i can turn it all the way up
swez on 05/14/2009 05:34:29
So, I take it this JL amp and RF subs exceed your expectations? hehe
Yeah, that's a great combo, but when you dial up the bass, the lights are definitely going to dim. The Big 3 wiring upgrade will help, but a H.O. ALT is the best answer.
Swez
Replies (33)
swez on 04/2/2009 05:14:21
The RF T1's come in two configurations. (2+2 and 4+4 Dual Coil subs) Do you know which version you have now?
Skip the Cap. They don't deliver the results you'll need with a pair of these subs and any amp large enough to power them properly. A better choice is a High Output Gel Cel Battery in the trunk to help feed the sub amp.
Depending on what sub coils are used in your T1's, the PA 2000/1D or 4000/1D would be fine. The 2000/1D is fused at 80A's while the 4000/1D is fused at 120A's. Here's a copy of the manual for both to review and study:
http://www.poweracoustik.com/pa2006/manual%20and%20catalog/4.23%20BAMF%20MANUAL.pdf
Either way, both amps draw a good deal of current at the power levels they can deliver. The stock electricals in this car will need some modifications.
1. Big 3 wiring upgrade, #4 gage wires
2. H.O. Gel Cell, 750 CCA or higher
3. H.O. ALT may be needed for the 4000/1D amp (225-250A output)
Comments/questions?
Swez
PS Your stock front door speakers are 4" x 6" (Not 4" x 9")
jasonjamesnorth on 04/2/2009 11:28:09
ya the T1 can be both 2 or 4 ohms. I have them wired right now at 4 ohms. Also i was looking at an Orion amp also 2400w D class on ebay for 91 bucks. Is that a good deal? Also, i have another question. When i turn my radio on and turn up the volume sometimes the radio will shut off. Is this because my interior speakers are drawing to much juice and over amping the cd play. Thanks so much very much apperiate it.
swez on 04/2/2009 14:22:09
That Orion amp is a great price if it works properly. If damaged, figure about $80 - $100 in repairs and parts. It's still a great bargain if minor repairs are needed.
The T1 subs, am not clear on which model number you have. Are these both T112D2 or T112D4's? Need to know which model you have to insure the best amp fit for them.
As for the HU turning off at high volume settings, that often means there is a shorted speaker wire on one channel. The easiest way to find out which one is giving ya trouble, is to use an Ohmeter and measure resistance of each speaker at the HU speaker outputs. (Output harness disconnected from the HU)
If the connections and speakers are good, the meter will read just under 4 ohms. If you find one that reads below 1.5 ohms, that is likely to be the problem child and you'll have to check the wiring and speaker for shorting against the mounting panel. (A few stray wires are enough to cause a problem)
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/2/2009 16:05:29
Sorry about not being clear about which subs i have. I have the T112d2. Never use an ohmeter guess ill look that up lol.
TO be clear on what i have.
Hu- alpine cda 9855
6"x9" infinity reference 9603i
4"x6" think thier infinity also not sure how to take the door apart to check
Lighting Audio 4 gauge ground and power wire. With 40 amp fuse
RCA scosche
Speaker wire 12 gauge high purity copper speaker cable
Battery Titanium 870 amp 700 cold crank amps
Alternator not sure
Also i was wondering which HU is better. Alpine cda 9855 "which is currently installed" or Sony CDX-MP70
The sony HU and Infinity speaker where already installed when i bought the car. Just so you know
swez on 04/2/2009 21:24:35
This Sony HU came out in 2002, but has adequate features if you wish to keep it for now. If you wanted to add and Aux In for MP3 or I-Pod, that's another story. Speakers mentioned are correct for this model car.
The power cable you have now will need to be changed if you go for one of the larger amps mentioned before. #4 is good up to 80-100 A's, depending on total length. 1/0 would be required if you went above 120A's.
Tech Tip: Keep your #4 handy as it will be needed for your Big 3 wiring upgrade.
I believe the stock ALT in this package is only 75-80 A's at full output. At idle, figure 50% of that is available. The vehicle needs about 40-50A's to operate all main electricals. That leaves little margin for high power amplifiers w/o a H.O. ALT. (~200 + A's at full output)
What I am trying to share with you, think it through! Get the knowledge before diving in deep and count the cost VS benefits. This is a big set of steps in time & $$$.
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/3/2009 01:41:05
Thanks for all the advice. Sucks i need so much more. However hopefully will your help ill have the system i always wanted and dont have to worrie about messing my car up. Also with the amp im not going to get the orion ive been betting on amp though ebay.
So now a need a amp, new power cable, new alt, a H.O battery
swez on 04/3/2009 02:32:05
Don't mean to discourage you here, but am giving you the longer view of what it will take to get there. If your not planning to compete heavily in DB Drags, you can build this system in stages as time and $$$ permits.
Frankly, you could easily start with one amp and one sub initially. The amp will need to deliver 500-600 watts RMS @ 2 - 4 ohms. A fine amp if you can find it at a great price, would be the JL 500/1. It has excellent features, has been a proven product for years and a used one should not be too hard to find off ebay. Going this route will buy you time and not waste $$$ on inferior gear.
Using one amp for now, will power 1 or 2 subs w/o expensive electrical upgrades right off the bat. If you want more bass later, then you'll need the H.O. ALT and another 500/1. (One amp per sub)
As for the sub enclosure, if you can build your own, it will cost about $85.00 in materials at most. Go ported if you like Rap or Hip Hop. If you like Jazz, Rock and such, sealed is a good choice, smaller and less work too.
There's no reason not to do this in stages. If you plan ahead well, the results will come when the $$$ is available.
Comments?
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/3/2009 11:58:18
I already have a box. Its Q logic ported in the center. Money isn't the problem, just time is. Im a very impatient person. Always seems i have the hardest time with anything i try to do. Thank you so much. jason
swez on 04/3/2009 17:42:29
What is the model # of that Q-Logic box you have now?
My Dr. Phil hat is on: Impatience and lack of experience often makes any hobby a very expensive series of costly mistakes, lots of frustration and damaged gear. Unfortunately, the only cure for impatience is time, experience and a wiser buddy to watch our backside. ;-)
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/3/2009 18:55:19
I have to go check on the box. I would right now but its raining and freezeing right now in michigan ****ty ass weather. This isn't the frist system I ever had. I know a little bit. However it nice to have someone who actually knows. However, hopefully ill win a JL 1000/1 amp. Ive been looking up new alternators. So lets say i get a new alternator like 200 + will i still need a battery in the trunk. Also when u referred to the BIG 3 what excatly does that mean. Thank jason P.S Dr. Phil hat is on LOL
swez on 04/3/2009 19:49:59
Michigan huh? Same here... Western burbs of Detroit to be more specific. (Yeah, spring is trying to arrive, but another week or 2 should be on track again) Have seen this cycle for over 50 years and remember winters that were much worse than we have seen in the past 10 years. I track it patiently as the Trout season opener is now here. Time to break out the fly fishing gear and get ready.
The Big 3:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/cgi-bin/car_audio_faq/faq.cgi?g3481
A JL Slash 1000/1 would be a great option here. It's one of the best amps out there for design, reliability and versatility. JL engineers came up with a real winning package with this amp series.
This amp draws just under 100A's at full power. A typical vehicle needs 40-60A's to operate all main electrical systems and usually 20-30A's available for add ons can be tolerated.
GM used the CS-130 ALT for most cars in the late 80's to present. This ALT produces about 55 A's at idle and a max of 105 A's at 2200 RPM and above. (Note the peak output requires cruising speed RPMs to get the power up)
At idle and lights, A/C-Blower and a few other circuits on, will use up
most of the current draw available and that's all she wrote. The Big 3 wiring upgrade helps lower the wiring resistance and allows more efficient transfer of watts to the entire electrical system. That's why we recommend it so often in larger audio installs.
As for local H.O. alternator suppliers, consider www.motorcityreman.com. They are located in Eastpoint MI and offer a wide range of H.O. ALTs for common US made cars. Their prices are very reasonable and if you live near Detroit, go pick one up and save on S/H if it makes sense. "I want it All... I want it Now".
http://www.motorcityreman.com/
http://www.motorcityreman.com/high-amp-alternators-pontiac-sunfire.html (The list price is "steep" for the 200A model, so get the right model number and shop their e-bay site)
There are 2 ways to go on this install:
1. Use the stock ALT with a smaller diameter pully and add a 2nd H.O battery in the trunk. Here, it would be wise to use a dual ALT charging device called a Battery Isolator Kit. (More on that later)
2. The more expensive route is a H.O. ALT and only one battery for the whole system. Here, we look for >100A's output at idle speeds and these often have smaller diameter pullies as well. (The faster the ALT spins VS engine RPM, the more power the ALT will deliver at low engine RPMs.
Does this car use the GM Quad-Four engine package? Man, I was impressed the first time I drove one of those. They were a bit doggy below 3,000 RPM, but above that threshold, this engine came to life rapidly.
Comments?
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/4/2009 02:15:08
you like the little sunfire lol its ok im not really sure if thier is a Quad four engine package. Its a 4 banger with a 2.4 twin turbo. I'll do the big 3 my best friend dad a auto macanic ill print out the dirtections. Hopefull i win the amp.
jasonjamesnorth on 04/4/2009 02:15:35
oh ya i live in flint michigan by the way and was in detriot today myself lol
swez on 04/4/2009 12:12:20
Yeah, nice little car for the money and I would think it good on gas as long as the turbos are not used too much. I looked it up and they do not mention the Quad four engine package on the GT model.
I hope you win that amp on ebay. It's a nice piece of gear and will give your subs some serious bump too. A new one is just under $1,000.00, but a good used price would be under $300.00.
Swez
PS Did not mention this before, but we are PG site at CK. Even though we have filters, we ask all users to refrain from "colorful language". Thanks in advance for your cooperation. SMILE
jasonjamesnorth on 04/4/2009 14:28:59
ya the car is good on gas. It ride ruff tho doesn't help that i have some 17 inch verda scropions on it. Sorry about the language totally understand.
swez on 04/5/2009 11:35:31
Thanks for your cooperation on the language thing. CK is different from most other car audio sites and we like it that way.
We don't flame others that come for help or dis their product selections either. Ck is all about quality information in a professional style. We hope you like the difference.
Swez USFLAG
jasonjamesnorth on 04/5/2009 20:07:34
Hey swez if i win the Al Amp would i stilll need to install a 1/0 guage wire because its only 100 max amps. Also if i buy a H.0 alternator will i need to do the BIG 3 wireing. Thanks jason
swez on 04/6/2009 12:35:47
Any amp package that draws less than 100 A's, #4 gage wire is good. If the wire goes longer than ~16 feet, some voltage drops show up. We generally try to avoid voltage drops of more than 1/2 volt on the main line. (We go larger wiring to eliminate that)
Either way, most will benefit from the Big 3 upgrade. Factory stock wires alone are not designed for the added current of larger amplifiers.
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/7/2009 10:23:25
Hey Swez, I got the new power cable. 1/0 gauage. Hopefully i win the amp by tonight ill know so far im the leader. winning it at 355 dollars with a max bid at 450 for the jl 1000/1 amp
jasonjamesnorth on 04/7/2009 21:26:39
Hey Swez, i won the amp im so pumped lol. Anyways with shiping which will take 4-9 days i paid 420. SO next step big 3 wire and installing power cord.
swez on 04/7/2009 23:42:28
Congratulations on winning a fine amp! CLAP You're going to love this amp!
If this is the only amp you plan to install, looking hard for a #2 gage power/ground kit will do. (#2 is rated for 160A's, but hard to find) If that is not possible, then 1/0, (Rated at 300A's is your choice and use the present #4 you have now for the Big 3 upgrade. With a #2 or 1/0 line, you can easily add a modest 2 or 4 channel amp to bring up the Mid/Highs too.
Comments?
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/7/2009 23:56:59
already have the 1/0 gage. Im going to go bu the end fitting for the #4 to do the Big 3 upgrade. Have my friends dad do it for me.
swez on 04/8/2009 00:10:25
You will need 6 crimp on ring terminals that accept #4 gage wires. The rest is easy for a guy with the right tools.
Note: Try the install w/o an extra battery initially and see if your electrical system can handle the sub amp w/o major light dimming issues at high Bass SPL. If the dimming gets too bad, (Low RPM) we'll have to consider a buffer battery in the trunk to keep the amp well-fed with current draw demands.
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/8/2009 10:57:39
ok thanks. Ya hopefully sometime next week ill have everything finally up and runing. Swez honestly how load is this going to be. Also with the JL amp being 1000 RMS each speaker is 600 RMS so the amp shouldnt beable to blow the speaker.
swez on 04/8/2009 13:09:10
You'll be fine as this is a balance between RMS power to the subs and keeping the lights from dimming real bad on deep bass hits.
One thing most guys don't understand/get, are the relationship between power to their subs, sub efficiency, enclosure efficiencies, "cabin gain affects" and overall output SPL. This is complex and takes time to learn, but will give you a few highlights to whet the appitite.
1. SPL, (How much sound pressure is produced) is not a linear function... it's logrithmic. Say what there Swez? Well, let's look at RMS Power vs SPL output and driver eff. Here's the plot: A sub that is rated at (88dB/1W@ 1m) eff will produce the following SPL levels at a given input RMS Power input:
Eff: RMS power: SPL:
88.0 2 watts 88dB
88.0 4 watts 91dB
88.0 8 watts 93dB
88.0 16 watts 96dB
88.0 32 watts 99dB
88.0 64 watts 102dB
88.0 128 watts 105dB
88.0 256 watts 108dB
88.0 512 watts 111dB
88.0 1024 watts 114dB
Each time we double the RMS power (watts) to a given speaker, we add +3 dB more SPL. A +3dB bump seems noticable at low wattage input, but as we get past 100 dB, the same +3 dB is barely heard, but is taxing on the power supply, (Charging system) to feed the amp.
To give us an acoutical doubling of what the ear hears, we need a +9 dB bump. (90 dB vs 99dB is doubling the power we actually hear. Got all that?
Now, let's look at a few freebies to up the ante.
1. Cabin gain will yield a + 10-15dB more SPL, depending on the vehicle we are working with. Larger SUV's, Hatchbacks and extended cab trucks are closer to +15 free dB of low bass. Sedans and trunk mounted subs are closer to +10dB. (Interior airspace gives us a nice bump in extra bass around 55-70 Hz.) Not bad huh?
2. The type of enclosure used will also help in that department. Sealed boxes are the smoothest in response curves, but not as efficient as ported or Bandpass enclosures.
a. The sealed box is most natural for SQ and SQL systems.
b. The port tuned box will net a +3dB bump in the tuning frequency
range. (30-45 Hz.)
c. The BP tuned box will give us a +3-5dB bump in a very narrow band of bass, depending on the design used.
3. If we double the cone size and run the same power to each sub, we pick up another +3dB of bass.
The trick is to get as many free dB as possible, without over-extending the woofer's power handling abilities. In your case, the JL 1000/1 will deliver a solid 500 watts RMS per sub. (Nothing to sneeze at here Jason)
FYI: This is much more bass SPL than most Bass Players use on stage with their amps. The bulk of the Bass SPL comes from the sound reinforcement system up front and not on stage. (Huge amps and 15"-18" subs on each side of the stage or in front and below the stage do all the heavy lifting)
OK, digest that a while as best you can. Either way, your ride is going to have some serious Bass SPL after it's dialed in properly.
Finally, if you don't have a Digital Multimeter already, borrrow or buy one as you will need it when the tweaking process comes later. ($20.00 will get you a nice meter and it will become part of every good installer's tool kit too)
Comments/Questions?
Swez
PS Not to worry... I've been down this path many times with others and they came out very pleased with the results. So will you! SMILE
jasonjamesnorth on 04/9/2009 15:50:21
Maybe one day i can come down and see u.
swez on 04/9/2009 19:28:18
That might work as it warms up... if you don't mind working with an older guy... hehe (Am probably your parents age) GRIN
Swez
jasonjamesnorth on 04/9/2009 21:58:34
not at all. Just you would know how to turn it in just right and would really appericate it. could possiable give ya a few bucks.
swez on 04/9/2009 22:19:09
Yes, have the tools and such as needed and always glad to meet a fellow CK'er too. Like working with JL products as they are just superb gear and tops in this game! (once one knows the drill)
Looking ahead, let's see how the weather and our schedule match. Do you have another scheduled stop in Detroit soon?
Swez
PS Sony xPlod vs JL, "We're not in Kansas anymore Toto"! Not even in the same zip code. ;-)
jasonjamesnorth on 04/10/2009 14:02:37
lol like the comment. Um im usally free. Besides the next two weeks because of finals. After that im free. Kinda have to play it by ear. Is thier only a certian time you are available, i can work around your schedule. Thank jason
swez on 04/10/2009 16:43:03
Get your finals out of the way and we'll just play things by ear. It's only a 90 minute drive from Flint to where I live and most of it's freeway driving too. By then, the weather should be more cooperative.
Are you familiar with US-23 south to I-96 east to Livonia, MI route? Am only 5 miles south of I-96 in Garden City, MI. (Map it)
Saturday's are good here right now. (after 2:00 PM) Depending on the work required, allow an hour or so for the dial in steps and any other tweaking that is needed.
Sound good to you?
Swez
PS When we get closer to the end of this month, we can swap e-mails and phone #'s to discuss your needs ahead of time.
jasonjamesnorth on 05/13/2009 23:09:31
They swez sorry its been a little while since i last been on here. So anyways ya this system is totally ridiculas lol. I haven't gotten the big 3 wireing done yet nor did the 0 gauage wire never came in so i didn't get that installed yet. However, i only have the amp like a 1/3 or so and the EQ on the HU all the way down and the Extra BS all the way down and it just slams to the point where my friends say that cant handle it. Its so funny when i have my lights on at night looks like strob lights anyways hopefully i can get the H O alt so i can turn it all the way up
swez on 05/14/2009 05:34:29
So, I take it this JL amp and RF subs exceed your expectations? hehe
Yeah, that's a great combo, but when you dial up the bass, the lights are definitely going to dim. The Big 3 wiring upgrade will help, but a H.O. ALT is the best answer.
Swez
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