Hello everyone! Im trying to figure out how to get 10, 12" Alpine Type-E's into one 2500 mono amplifier, or 10 12" Type-S's into a 3000 mono amp ( have'nt searched for the amps yet.)!
Insane I know but I'm tryn to build a nice show car and am wondering if I need the 2ohm or 4ohm subs. I've narrowed my amps down to either a Kicker ZX2500.1, Orion HCCA-d5000, or a Hifonics BXi 2610D for the type-e's. I believe these are all stable @2ohms and would like to get the setup as low an ohm load as possible.
Believe it or not but this setup will be cheaper than my setup in my Charger which i spent over 3,000 dollars on!!!
P.S.- I am aware of all this setup will need i.e- extra batt, alt and a good cap, and this will take me about a year to accomplish! I havent decided on the car I will by yet but am tryn to get the jist of the setup! Thank you for any info you guys supply!
Replies (15)
swez on 03/22/2009 19:08:13
Ray,
This plan is well outside the realm of what we normally do here at CK. If you wish to build a large format SPL machine, go to the guys who have done this and find out what they have learned in the process.
That means research, lots of planning and a large wallet to fund it all. The first thing that comes to mind is a used 1/2-3/4 ton Cargo Van as your vehicle of choice. With the market for such things being very poor, there's a good chance you can pick one up for cheap and gut it in preparation for sound dampening.
The planning stage will require a lot of thought about woofer placement and power amps to drive them. Then, the issue of powering the amps adequately will be a big part of the process too.
Anyone else have some words of wisdom to add to this can of tuna?
Swez
T-RAY on 03/22/2009 22:25:04
I see... I was tryn to figure out what ohm subwoofer, either 2 or 4, would it take to get them all wired in to a net 2 ohm or 1, recently seen a memhpis that had the 1ohm rms load i was looking for.
As for the vehicle I was thinking actually a compact enclosure for my enclosure... like an old blazer or a wagon. The cargo van would be another option, but not really looking for something that big. This guy from my trusted local installer had a blazer ( 4 door ) with 12 12's so I know its possible!
As for the planning stage, I said this will take me around a year to fully accomplish. All I'm tryn to do is setup all the hardware, buy it when I have the extra doe, then search for the vehicle to cram it all into!! My local shop has an excellent fiberglass worker and is a good friend of mine! They've done many SPL machines and have the trophies to back up their work!
swez on 03/23/2009 09:35:03
That's good. It sounds like you have a few local places to learn and pull this plan together.
Was pondering your sub/amp senario and it seems best to do it in groups of 4 subs per amp. A set of four SWE-1243's with 4 ohm SVC's in parallel will give you a 1 ohm load and 1000 watts RMS to power them. This makes sense as if one sub goes out, you'll still have bass to the three remaining subs. For max efficiency, USE ONLY Class D amps.
Amps: http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=19580
Doing this in groups of 3's, you can use 12 subs and 3 amps. If one amp goes down, you still have 2 that are powering 8 subs in all.
As for sub enclosure designs, consider a sealed Isobaric loading option. This gives the power handling of 2 subs, but 1/2 the airspace of 1 sealed sub is all that is needed. This is a small footprint where 6 chambers are used and 12 subs as well.
You'll need some input/research on how to configure this type of sub array, but it would indeed fit in the back of a Blazer or similar SUV. The wiring side of this plan is nice as the subs have external access points for wiring up each array.
Comments?
Swez
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxes2.asp#2
newB on 03/23/2009 13:52:28
what car?
I would personally run three under rated 1kw amps and do four single 4ohm (or dual 2ohm) woofers. This will need a High output Alternator, several runs of 1/0ga wire, and if possible several batteries (no caps).
What will make or break your setup will be the box. I have a few tips for arrangement but i'll need to get an idea on what size and alignment your working with.
-Drew
newB on 03/23/2009 13:54:18
Amps:
Diablo Audio
Sundown Audio
Incriminator Audio
Atomic
Rockford Fosgate (power T1k is a good amp if you can get it cheap)
and DC Sound lab will have 1kw amps under rated coming out shortly.
-Drew
swez on 03/23/2009 19:05:41
Would like to see you to work your magic on enclosure thought Drew.
However, running 10-20% underrated amps is costly and not a real solid bang for the buck.
Why? Let's say we have 1 Kw to a bank of subs and all subs are power to rated RMS values. Okay, now we throw in an expensive amp that delivers say 1.5 KW to the same subs. What is the added SPL one can expect? Do the math and it will be a very minimal bump up in dB.
Here, efficient woofers and high efficiency enclosures would be far more bang for the buck than using 3 expensive amps. Think it over carefully before you respond.
Swez
T-RAY on 03/24/2009 00:35:48
Okay... appreciate all the input guys! What Im taking from this is not to wire them all into 1 large amplifier but spread them out into multiple amlifiers.
I suppose that would make better sense for effeciency... but as for the setup I was imagining I suppose that would'nt work...?
I could go with a 4x4 setup I suppose if I was going to multiple amps why not 4 type e's to one amp each.... brings the total to 16 12's but if it's gona be SPL why not! Like I said in my first post this is just my planning stages and you guys are helping alot with the ideas! I already know the enclosure is gona be custom fiberglass. How It will be done is not gona be known till I actually buy the vehicle and start hammering out ideas!
I suppose im willing to spend about 4-5 thousand ( maybe more ) after everything is all said and done if the gives everyone some figures to work around with matchable products!
Victor on 03/24/2009 06:10:27
I got a question for you that would help us guide you in the right direction.
1 - are you obsessed with the number of subs ?
2 - or any option ( combination of products ) is fine till you get the desired SPL number ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would suggest 4 x 15" subs, of around 500wrms to 750wrms with a good x-max and sensitivity. In a horn loaded BP enclosure.
Use 3-4 amps as per the power requirement, use amps that can be stacked.
lots of damping.
alt + batteries, big 3 etc is of course understood.
This has the potential to take you well near the 160db SPL mark.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or are you trying to achieve something like this...???
T-RAY on 03/24/2009 08:44:40
Well Vic, somwhere along those lines.... maybe not so fancy and more rustic unless I win he lotto! Say... something complex but simple! I suppose I am open to any option that may be better than my setup I was planning.
Take the subwoofer setup for example. I was either ( comparing to an engine ) setting them in a v-block type fashion or perhaps now a multiple inline fashion, but I won't know for sure until I have everything in hand. 3x4 I suppose would be sufficient enough to get the 1kw per block ratio ( dunno why I posted 4x4 ).
newB on 03/24/2009 23:17:19
Victor- it will be very hard to reach 160 on the TL with four 15s GRIN
i know two locally and one has a db drag wall and does 160db flat with two 18s on 15kw and can only do that number at around 63hz
other one bass races 159.9 with six 18s and 22,000w
Lade (not local, but a friend) does 159.9 with 16 15s and i think 30kw? idk but he has 16 bats :-O
alright- all this depends on what car you choose to get, then we can hammer out designs like you mentioned. you can get fewer nicer drivers and give them plenty of power or many small drivers and spread the power over several coils. Both routes have been proven to show good results and just require different angles to get where you want to be.
btw i've heard 150db @25hz and 160dbn at 30hz and it cannot be described. you need to consider what frequencies you want to play, and if you want more low end extension or high end intensity
-Drew
T-RAY on 03/25/2009 00:00:17
Well newB... all Im really looking for is to move the DB meter! SQ would be great but you have to somewhat sacrifice one to get the other right? For the driver I was looking for a low price, low rms that can be easily replaced, but for an amp I don't wana skimp because I would like to get the full potential of the subwoofer!
Therefore, I think I might go with either Type-E's or R's now ( would be half the subs but the same in the end correct ) as my drivers ( ?any objections? ) and as Swez said the 3x4 (or 3x2) setup would be more effecient. However the 6 type R's would be cheaper!!!
As for the amp I am starting to kinda lean toward the the Memphis PR-1.1000 as they are grossly underated and not a bad price either! Plus I've personally seen them in action and they are no joke!!! Unless perhaps someone has a better recommendation!
Also I found a great deal on an 85 blazer at home ( 2 door ) but still not for sure if thats what I'll be buying.
Victor on 03/25/2009 04:21:58
have made quite a few horn loaded enclosures recently.. using various drivers.
a single 6ohm 6.5" sony ( home audio ) sub, powered with just 120 wrms metered 115 db @ 50 Hz ( this enclosure has an external volume of 2.5 cu.ft ) .... have used blaupunkt-velocity 8" subs and jbl 10" subs... all have exhibited inherent acoustic gain of more than 10db over a ported design.
4 x 15's with 8-10kw power ... in a horn loaded bp ... i am sure it can definitely come near the 160db mark, although within a very limited bandwidth...
loads of damping and a solid power supply is taken for granted.
there are electrical ( the power game ) as well as acoustical ( enclosure design, damping, reinforcement etc... ) methods of getting a higher SPL number.
the reason why most use the electrical one ( more power more surface area ) is space and design constrains of an automobile.
the only problem here would be space, as doing a horn loaded bp for 4 x 15"ers requires some real space, around 10 cu.ft per sub depending on the tuning freq. desired and T/S parameters of the sub.
if you have thought about using 6 x 12" .. probably a ported design , you would require around 3 cu.ft per sub ...
meaning 40 cu.ft vs 20 cu.ft ... get the point
that is why it becomes a power and number game during automobile SPL competitions...
newB on 03/25/2009 11:53:02
i agree 100% GRIN
a buddy of mine has two bassteck 7 cabinets (servo drive 15s) and the only think stopping us from doing 3 in an asstro van is designing the Hyperbolic (sp?) horn needed. Very few are remaining, and there is not enough info on the drivers to design the horn. oh well-
to the OP a blazer would be sweet- see how many 12s you can fit in the space and plan around that. I would think subs up port back in that space will do nicely GRIn
-Drew
**found a vid for you- buddy of mine who is local and his love of 12s as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4o0EdkUemY
T-RAY on 03/25/2009 21:30:35
Crazy insane or insane crazy! HAHAHA
That setup is mad crazy yo! I believe he's running at least 12k to 15k to them right? Those are PB 3xl's if Im not mistaken!
The style setup he had going is kinda the idea I had as the multiple inline... but I dont quite have the pocket for that much! Even when this is actually said and done, I would mite still add to it in the future! Maybe a life long project to break the SPL record... lord knows what it will be by then! But for right now Im reaching for the mid 50's to possibly that 160 mark!
newB on 03/25/2009 22:27:30
Good Luck man!! we need more information to help you further.
i have one 18 on 3,000wrms ( www.youtube.com/user/eagle10s ) and i do 146.6db @40hz on music, it is VERY hard to break 150 much harder than people would like to think. The world record now is 181.x db and around 155db you have to seal all the air in the car because you can feel the blasts of air shooting through every gap and crack.
Takes lots of money and time- but its not impossible to get daily drivers into the 150+ range
-Drew
Insane I know but I'm tryn to build a nice show car and am wondering if I need the 2ohm or 4ohm subs. I've narrowed my amps down to either a Kicker ZX2500.1, Orion HCCA-d5000, or a Hifonics BXi 2610D for the type-e's. I believe these are all stable @2ohms and would like to get the setup as low an ohm load as possible.
Believe it or not but this setup will be cheaper than my setup in my Charger which i spent over 3,000 dollars on!!!
P.S.- I am aware of all this setup will need i.e- extra batt, alt and a good cap, and this will take me about a year to accomplish! I havent decided on the car I will by yet but am tryn to get the jist of the setup! Thank you for any info you guys supply!
Replies (15)
swez on 03/22/2009 19:08:13
Ray,
This plan is well outside the realm of what we normally do here at CK. If you wish to build a large format SPL machine, go to the guys who have done this and find out what they have learned in the process.
That means research, lots of planning and a large wallet to fund it all. The first thing that comes to mind is a used 1/2-3/4 ton Cargo Van as your vehicle of choice. With the market for such things being very poor, there's a good chance you can pick one up for cheap and gut it in preparation for sound dampening.
The planning stage will require a lot of thought about woofer placement and power amps to drive them. Then, the issue of powering the amps adequately will be a big part of the process too.
Anyone else have some words of wisdom to add to this can of tuna?
Swez
T-RAY on 03/22/2009 22:25:04
I see... I was tryn to figure out what ohm subwoofer, either 2 or 4, would it take to get them all wired in to a net 2 ohm or 1, recently seen a memhpis that had the 1ohm rms load i was looking for.
As for the vehicle I was thinking actually a compact enclosure for my enclosure... like an old blazer or a wagon. The cargo van would be another option, but not really looking for something that big. This guy from my trusted local installer had a blazer ( 4 door ) with 12 12's so I know its possible!
As for the planning stage, I said this will take me around a year to fully accomplish. All I'm tryn to do is setup all the hardware, buy it when I have the extra doe, then search for the vehicle to cram it all into!! My local shop has an excellent fiberglass worker and is a good friend of mine! They've done many SPL machines and have the trophies to back up their work!
swez on 03/23/2009 09:35:03
That's good. It sounds like you have a few local places to learn and pull this plan together.
Was pondering your sub/amp senario and it seems best to do it in groups of 4 subs per amp. A set of four SWE-1243's with 4 ohm SVC's in parallel will give you a 1 ohm load and 1000 watts RMS to power them. This makes sense as if one sub goes out, you'll still have bass to the three remaining subs. For max efficiency, USE ONLY Class D amps.
Amps: http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=19580
Doing this in groups of 3's, you can use 12 subs and 3 amps. If one amp goes down, you still have 2 that are powering 8 subs in all.
As for sub enclosure designs, consider a sealed Isobaric loading option. This gives the power handling of 2 subs, but 1/2 the airspace of 1 sealed sub is all that is needed. This is a small footprint where 6 chambers are used and 12 subs as well.
You'll need some input/research on how to configure this type of sub array, but it would indeed fit in the back of a Blazer or similar SUV. The wiring side of this plan is nice as the subs have external access points for wiring up each array.
Comments?
Swez
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxes2.asp#2
newB on 03/23/2009 13:52:28
what car?
I would personally run three under rated 1kw amps and do four single 4ohm (or dual 2ohm) woofers. This will need a High output Alternator, several runs of 1/0ga wire, and if possible several batteries (no caps).
What will make or break your setup will be the box. I have a few tips for arrangement but i'll need to get an idea on what size and alignment your working with.
-Drew
newB on 03/23/2009 13:54:18
Amps:
Diablo Audio
Sundown Audio
Incriminator Audio
Atomic
Rockford Fosgate (power T1k is a good amp if you can get it cheap)
and DC Sound lab will have 1kw amps under rated coming out shortly.
-Drew
swez on 03/23/2009 19:05:41
Would like to see you to work your magic on enclosure thought Drew.
However, running 10-20% underrated amps is costly and not a real solid bang for the buck.
Why? Let's say we have 1 Kw to a bank of subs and all subs are power to rated RMS values. Okay, now we throw in an expensive amp that delivers say 1.5 KW to the same subs. What is the added SPL one can expect? Do the math and it will be a very minimal bump up in dB.
Here, efficient woofers and high efficiency enclosures would be far more bang for the buck than using 3 expensive amps. Think it over carefully before you respond.
Swez
T-RAY on 03/24/2009 00:35:48
Okay... appreciate all the input guys! What Im taking from this is not to wire them all into 1 large amplifier but spread them out into multiple amlifiers.
I suppose that would make better sense for effeciency... but as for the setup I was imagining I suppose that would'nt work...?
I could go with a 4x4 setup I suppose if I was going to multiple amps why not 4 type e's to one amp each.... brings the total to 16 12's but if it's gona be SPL why not! Like I said in my first post this is just my planning stages and you guys are helping alot with the ideas! I already know the enclosure is gona be custom fiberglass. How It will be done is not gona be known till I actually buy the vehicle and start hammering out ideas!
I suppose im willing to spend about 4-5 thousand ( maybe more ) after everything is all said and done if the gives everyone some figures to work around with matchable products!
Victor on 03/24/2009 06:10:27
I got a question for you that would help us guide you in the right direction.
1 - are you obsessed with the number of subs ?
2 - or any option ( combination of products ) is fine till you get the desired SPL number ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would suggest 4 x 15" subs, of around 500wrms to 750wrms with a good x-max and sensitivity. In a horn loaded BP enclosure.
Use 3-4 amps as per the power requirement, use amps that can be stacked.
lots of damping.
alt + batteries, big 3 etc is of course understood.
This has the potential to take you well near the 160db SPL mark.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or are you trying to achieve something like this...???
T-RAY on 03/24/2009 08:44:40
Well Vic, somwhere along those lines.... maybe not so fancy and more rustic unless I win he lotto! Say... something complex but simple! I suppose I am open to any option that may be better than my setup I was planning.
Take the subwoofer setup for example. I was either ( comparing to an engine ) setting them in a v-block type fashion or perhaps now a multiple inline fashion, but I won't know for sure until I have everything in hand. 3x4 I suppose would be sufficient enough to get the 1kw per block ratio ( dunno why I posted 4x4 ).
newB on 03/24/2009 23:17:19
Victor- it will be very hard to reach 160 on the TL with four 15s GRIN
i know two locally and one has a db drag wall and does 160db flat with two 18s on 15kw and can only do that number at around 63hz
other one bass races 159.9 with six 18s and 22,000w
Lade (not local, but a friend) does 159.9 with 16 15s and i think 30kw? idk but he has 16 bats :-O
alright- all this depends on what car you choose to get, then we can hammer out designs like you mentioned. you can get fewer nicer drivers and give them plenty of power or many small drivers and spread the power over several coils. Both routes have been proven to show good results and just require different angles to get where you want to be.
btw i've heard 150db @25hz and 160dbn at 30hz and it cannot be described. you need to consider what frequencies you want to play, and if you want more low end extension or high end intensity
-Drew
T-RAY on 03/25/2009 00:00:17
Well newB... all Im really looking for is to move the DB meter! SQ would be great but you have to somewhat sacrifice one to get the other right? For the driver I was looking for a low price, low rms that can be easily replaced, but for an amp I don't wana skimp because I would like to get the full potential of the subwoofer!
Therefore, I think I might go with either Type-E's or R's now ( would be half the subs but the same in the end correct ) as my drivers ( ?any objections? ) and as Swez said the 3x4 (or 3x2) setup would be more effecient. However the 6 type R's would be cheaper!!!
As for the amp I am starting to kinda lean toward the the Memphis PR-1.1000 as they are grossly underated and not a bad price either! Plus I've personally seen them in action and they are no joke!!! Unless perhaps someone has a better recommendation!
Also I found a great deal on an 85 blazer at home ( 2 door ) but still not for sure if thats what I'll be buying.
Victor on 03/25/2009 04:21:58
have made quite a few horn loaded enclosures recently.. using various drivers.
a single 6ohm 6.5" sony ( home audio ) sub, powered with just 120 wrms metered 115 db @ 50 Hz ( this enclosure has an external volume of 2.5 cu.ft ) .... have used blaupunkt-velocity 8" subs and jbl 10" subs... all have exhibited inherent acoustic gain of more than 10db over a ported design.
4 x 15's with 8-10kw power ... in a horn loaded bp ... i am sure it can definitely come near the 160db mark, although within a very limited bandwidth...
loads of damping and a solid power supply is taken for granted.
there are electrical ( the power game ) as well as acoustical ( enclosure design, damping, reinforcement etc... ) methods of getting a higher SPL number.
the reason why most use the electrical one ( more power more surface area ) is space and design constrains of an automobile.
the only problem here would be space, as doing a horn loaded bp for 4 x 15"ers requires some real space, around 10 cu.ft per sub depending on the tuning freq. desired and T/S parameters of the sub.
if you have thought about using 6 x 12" .. probably a ported design , you would require around 3 cu.ft per sub ...
meaning 40 cu.ft vs 20 cu.ft ... get the point
that is why it becomes a power and number game during automobile SPL competitions...
newB on 03/25/2009 11:53:02
i agree 100% GRIN
a buddy of mine has two bassteck 7 cabinets (servo drive 15s) and the only think stopping us from doing 3 in an asstro van is designing the Hyperbolic (sp?) horn needed. Very few are remaining, and there is not enough info on the drivers to design the horn. oh well-
to the OP a blazer would be sweet- see how many 12s you can fit in the space and plan around that. I would think subs up port back in that space will do nicely GRIn
-Drew
**found a vid for you- buddy of mine who is local and his love of 12s as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4o0EdkUemY
T-RAY on 03/25/2009 21:30:35
Crazy insane or insane crazy! HAHAHA
That setup is mad crazy yo! I believe he's running at least 12k to 15k to them right? Those are PB 3xl's if Im not mistaken!
The style setup he had going is kinda the idea I had as the multiple inline... but I dont quite have the pocket for that much! Even when this is actually said and done, I would mite still add to it in the future! Maybe a life long project to break the SPL record... lord knows what it will be by then! But for right now Im reaching for the mid 50's to possibly that 160 mark!
newB on 03/25/2009 22:27:30
Good Luck man!! we need more information to help you further.
i have one 18 on 3,000wrms ( www.youtube.com/user/eagle10s ) and i do 146.6db @40hz on music, it is VERY hard to break 150 much harder than people would like to think. The world record now is 181.x db and around 155db you have to seal all the air in the car because you can feel the blasts of air shooting through every gap and crack.
Takes lots of money and time- but its not impossible to get daily drivers into the 150+ range
-Drew
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