ive have a car audio shop in indonesia and I've some serious problems on car audio result..
i've using RTA phonic paa3 and audio control for seeing the freq resp on my car audio system but i just have some problem on it.
1. how to make the right ways eq for SQ?is there any standard freq respns on this section??i really need the picture of the right graphics freq response.so i can boost or cut my EQ near to the standar EQ of SQ (VOKAL,JAZZ,R n B, House Music)
2.. i've tried to make the freq resp near to flat but the sound itsnt good.its look the vocal and the instrument more like racing.harshnnes,andsome kind like riot on the song .IoI.
i really need some solution from the profesional installatur
thx a lot people....
Replies (5)
swez on 03/15/2009 22:48:31
Welcome to CK! (Indonesia huh? You're our first)
Think I can help you a little here on the details.
1. Set the HU tone controls to FLAT, Loudness contour off
2. Use full range "Pink Noise" as your audio test signal
3. Turn on your RTA and set your calibrated mike in the middle of the front stage, but isolated from any rattles and other unwanted noise
4. Turn off the subs for now (Add them last to blend)
5. Tweak your EQ to obtain the flattest response possible on the RTA display (Use very little +dB boost and mostly cut dB as needed
6. Do this test at 90 - 95 dB at most
The goal is to flatten all peaks and spikes as well as shore up any major dips on the RTA display. We are trying to obtain as flat a line as possible. Yes, it will sound terrible with music, but we are not done yet.
Once you get the RTA as flat as possible, bring in the subs for that nice, controlled rumble.
That's it for the EQ adjustments. Record the slider/dial readings for each for future reference. (If things get out of hand, you have the reference point handy to start over.
See, this stage is all about taking out resonances peaks and cancellation dips that naturally occur in any acoustical enviornment. Once the plot is as flat as we can get it, the Audio Control EQ is set and leave it alone!
Now it's time to get down to critical listening with music we are very familiar with. We can now use the HU tone controls, Preset EQ's or Parametric EQ sound shaping devices to adjust sound preferences on the fly from the dash.
As you have problably noticed, some music is mixed very well and balanced right off the media, (CD's, DVD's and MP3's) and needs very little tonal adjustments. However, some types of music are recorded by tone deaf mixing engineers. We can enhance a bad mix a little with additional EQ tools and maybe some DSP features as well.
The last tool we can use is a remote bass control feature at the dash. If we desire a few more/less dB of bass in the mix, that will do the job. Some of the better HU's have advanced Bass management tools. They work well, but a bit cumbersome to a real SQ user.
Questions/Comments?
Swez
PS Am not a Pro Installer for mobile gear, (Done a few nice systems, but not a daily event) have done a lot of live sound and large venue events. The trick is to take out as much ambient sound issues as possible in the pre-mix setup. From there, once the room acoustics are almost flat, we use other processors, time delay lines and the mixing console features to dial in a dynamic mix. That takes time to master and lots of hours of serious testing to obtain the best sound possible in a given sound system/environ.
These tools are great for the extreme SQL customer and very expensive too. However, not every install will have a 1/3 octave Master EQ. This has to be done by ear and some help from the RTA to get the best results possible with the limited tools they buy.
dave on 03/17/2009 07:17:53
THX A lot man!!!.i'll try then
just for the information, now im using:3ways speaker hertz hsk165,2ch zapco s300z refernce(front),2 ch audio system twister F190 for sub,a cerwin vega10" subW.my HU alpine9855,
i,ve another questions now if u dont mind ;)
1. how about the phase of each drivers on tweet,midR,midB, what must i do?i'll make them (+) all or make tweet +,midR-,MidB+ or something else?
.because some people tell me that i must make all my driver phase (+) maybe this theories are correct in a home audio but in car?..,but someone else tell me,i must listening n try bout the phases(????)
2.how about the cut point of my crossover?ve u any idea,now i cut my 3ways on hpf63hz slope12db,subW on lpf63 slope18db
3. is there any instant ways or patent eq to make freq resp nice on a jazz music, where i must boost n cut the freq points?
thx again swez..
swez on 03/17/2009 16:19:32
Hi Dave,
Was searching google on your Hertz speakers. I see they offer a 2-way Component set and a 2-way Coaxial set plus the crossovers. I do not see a 3-way Comp or Coaxial system in the HSK series. Can you find a link to the ones you have so I can review the details on them?
As for phase issues, most 12dB/oct passives will invert the tweeter to 180 degrees out of phase in Component tweets to compensate for the passive filter network. The RTA will show the crossover points of each driver as a slight dip at the crossing frequency range. If you can get a +/- 2 dB from flat at that point, you're in the game.
As for crossover points and HPF/LPF settings on your amps, we commonly use 80 Hz., as the starting point. This allows more bass from the woofer range and less stress on the MB drivers for clean and more accurate sound staging. The MB drivers are less efficent below 80 Hz and tend to need more EQ boost to bring up that 1/3rd octave if "cabin gain", (Transfer function) does not do it automatically. (It often does between 55-80 Hz., depending on the vehicle)
The HPF filter is commonly a 12dB/oct slope. The LPF here is 18dB/oct slope and that's a -90 degrees phase shift in polarity to the HPF settings. Many good sub amps have variable phase adjustment tools to match them up well. Again, the RTA will show those transition points. Again, a +/- 2dB from flat at the transition point, is very good.
Finally, most HU's offer preset EQ settings for Jazz, Rock, Voice and perhaps a few others too. They are good approximations for the average listener, but do not account for speaker response curves and transfer function affects in a given vehicle. That's where a quality 5-7 band EQ in the HU tools will come in very handy. We shape the sound based on what we hear in a very complex acoustical environment. That can drive a good sound tech batty in the process.
Comments?
Swez COFFEE
Also,
dave on 03/20/2009 08:40:17
THX swez...im very appreciate for your concern to help my problem.
are u an expert on your country??nice to know you...
my speakers are hi energy hsk163 3way system( www.hertzaudiovideo.com).
ive tried it before cut the hpf on 80,the higher sound more clear n smooth but my midB arent more powerfull,i think the midbasses from HERTZ more tough.if i cut the hpf on 63 12oktv.the bass can more fokus on the middle on the dashboard
i just try before to make my subW on lpf 80,12oktv, but i hear the basses from subW not came from the front,but came from on my back m using MPV car, i put my sub towards to my back window, in EMMA rules it woul be better to make the subw voices came on the front with a clear n tight form, in my country usually poeple cut the lpf on 63,12otv or below
have u any clue about this problem?
do i must to make all of my drivers phase on + using a polarity checker on paa3?
sorry swez if i have to many questions hahaha thx swez...
swez on 03/20/2009 16:55:19
Definition of an Expert: "A man from out of town, carrying a briefcase".
No, am not an "expert" after 10 years on this forum and many hours in the field as a Pro Sound Tech. So, though the processes are similar, the tools and acouctical issues vary so much from project to project, we're always on a steep learning curve.
Am not familar with EMMA rules and regs, but we do know that shifting the subW to various possible locations in a vehicle, can produce several desirable or detrimental outcomes. A little experimentation will tell what works best in a given vehicle.
Okay, did find the HSK-163 info mentioned and yes, they look like first rate 3-way Comps. The question I would try to answer initially, what is the LF rolloff rate for the MB driver in your vehicle. We normally look at where F3, (-3dB) point is and work from there.
I do not see any free air plots to tell us where Fs and F3 are for the 165 woofer??? You'll have to find them with the RTA and a Pink Noise tone generator/test tone CD. I also note the crossovers and MR is 500 Hz - 4.5 KHz and TW is 4.5 KHz and up. They are selectable at 6/12 dB/octave and attenuators for the MR & TW are built into the crossovers as well. (Nice features in all)
Another thing that is lacking on the specs, the polar dispersion patterns for the MR & TW? Knowing what the dispersion patterns are, helps us aim the drivers for best imaging and minimal cancellations from R/L driver locations. This can also be determined by RTA plots and the best tools to control them are location and Variable Band Parametric EQ.
Tell me more about this paa3 tool mentioned. Am not familiar with this one and how it works and what it can do. Polarity is often reversed on the TW to keep phase alignments in optimal range. However, this is very dependent on where the TW is located in relationship to the MR and MB drivers.
Swez
PS Too many questions? Not really... it's the search for answers that is the most fun or tedious. Keep em coming and we'll try to address and research options as needed. SMILE
I did find details on the crossover points
i've using RTA phonic paa3 and audio control for seeing the freq resp on my car audio system but i just have some problem on it.
1. how to make the right ways eq for SQ?is there any standard freq respns on this section??i really need the picture of the right graphics freq response.so i can boost or cut my EQ near to the standar EQ of SQ (VOKAL,JAZZ,R n B, House Music)
2.. i've tried to make the freq resp near to flat but the sound itsnt good.its look the vocal and the instrument more like racing.harshnnes,andsome kind like riot on the song .IoI.
i really need some solution from the profesional installatur
thx a lot people....
Replies (5)
swez on 03/15/2009 22:48:31
Welcome to CK! (Indonesia huh? You're our first)
Think I can help you a little here on the details.
1. Set the HU tone controls to FLAT, Loudness contour off
2. Use full range "Pink Noise" as your audio test signal
3. Turn on your RTA and set your calibrated mike in the middle of the front stage, but isolated from any rattles and other unwanted noise
4. Turn off the subs for now (Add them last to blend)
5. Tweak your EQ to obtain the flattest response possible on the RTA display (Use very little +dB boost and mostly cut dB as needed
6. Do this test at 90 - 95 dB at most
The goal is to flatten all peaks and spikes as well as shore up any major dips on the RTA display. We are trying to obtain as flat a line as possible. Yes, it will sound terrible with music, but we are not done yet.
Once you get the RTA as flat as possible, bring in the subs for that nice, controlled rumble.
That's it for the EQ adjustments. Record the slider/dial readings for each for future reference. (If things get out of hand, you have the reference point handy to start over.
See, this stage is all about taking out resonances peaks and cancellation dips that naturally occur in any acoustical enviornment. Once the plot is as flat as we can get it, the Audio Control EQ is set and leave it alone!
Now it's time to get down to critical listening with music we are very familiar with. We can now use the HU tone controls, Preset EQ's or Parametric EQ sound shaping devices to adjust sound preferences on the fly from the dash.
As you have problably noticed, some music is mixed very well and balanced right off the media, (CD's, DVD's and MP3's) and needs very little tonal adjustments. However, some types of music are recorded by tone deaf mixing engineers. We can enhance a bad mix a little with additional EQ tools and maybe some DSP features as well.
The last tool we can use is a remote bass control feature at the dash. If we desire a few more/less dB of bass in the mix, that will do the job. Some of the better HU's have advanced Bass management tools. They work well, but a bit cumbersome to a real SQ user.
Questions/Comments?
Swez
PS Am not a Pro Installer for mobile gear, (Done a few nice systems, but not a daily event) have done a lot of live sound and large venue events. The trick is to take out as much ambient sound issues as possible in the pre-mix setup. From there, once the room acoustics are almost flat, we use other processors, time delay lines and the mixing console features to dial in a dynamic mix. That takes time to master and lots of hours of serious testing to obtain the best sound possible in a given sound system/environ.
These tools are great for the extreme SQL customer and very expensive too. However, not every install will have a 1/3 octave Master EQ. This has to be done by ear and some help from the RTA to get the best results possible with the limited tools they buy.
dave on 03/17/2009 07:17:53
THX A lot man!!!.i'll try then
just for the information, now im using:3ways speaker hertz hsk165,2ch zapco s300z refernce(front),2 ch audio system twister F190 for sub,a cerwin vega10" subW.my HU alpine9855,
i,ve another questions now if u dont mind ;)
1. how about the phase of each drivers on tweet,midR,midB, what must i do?i'll make them (+) all or make tweet +,midR-,MidB+ or something else?
.because some people tell me that i must make all my driver phase (+) maybe this theories are correct in a home audio but in car?..,but someone else tell me,i must listening n try bout the phases(????)
2.how about the cut point of my crossover?ve u any idea,now i cut my 3ways on hpf63hz slope12db,subW on lpf63 slope18db
3. is there any instant ways or patent eq to make freq resp nice on a jazz music, where i must boost n cut the freq points?
thx again swez..
swez on 03/17/2009 16:19:32
Hi Dave,
Was searching google on your Hertz speakers. I see they offer a 2-way Component set and a 2-way Coaxial set plus the crossovers. I do not see a 3-way Comp or Coaxial system in the HSK series. Can you find a link to the ones you have so I can review the details on them?
As for phase issues, most 12dB/oct passives will invert the tweeter to 180 degrees out of phase in Component tweets to compensate for the passive filter network. The RTA will show the crossover points of each driver as a slight dip at the crossing frequency range. If you can get a +/- 2 dB from flat at that point, you're in the game.
As for crossover points and HPF/LPF settings on your amps, we commonly use 80 Hz., as the starting point. This allows more bass from the woofer range and less stress on the MB drivers for clean and more accurate sound staging. The MB drivers are less efficent below 80 Hz and tend to need more EQ boost to bring up that 1/3rd octave if "cabin gain", (Transfer function) does not do it automatically. (It often does between 55-80 Hz., depending on the vehicle)
The HPF filter is commonly a 12dB/oct slope. The LPF here is 18dB/oct slope and that's a -90 degrees phase shift in polarity to the HPF settings. Many good sub amps have variable phase adjustment tools to match them up well. Again, the RTA will show those transition points. Again, a +/- 2dB from flat at the transition point, is very good.
Finally, most HU's offer preset EQ settings for Jazz, Rock, Voice and perhaps a few others too. They are good approximations for the average listener, but do not account for speaker response curves and transfer function affects in a given vehicle. That's where a quality 5-7 band EQ in the HU tools will come in very handy. We shape the sound based on what we hear in a very complex acoustical environment. That can drive a good sound tech batty in the process.
Comments?
Swez COFFEE
Also,
dave on 03/20/2009 08:40:17
THX swez...im very appreciate for your concern to help my problem.
are u an expert on your country??nice to know you...
my speakers are hi energy hsk163 3way system( www.hertzaudiovideo.com).
ive tried it before cut the hpf on 80,the higher sound more clear n smooth but my midB arent more powerfull,i think the midbasses from HERTZ more tough.if i cut the hpf on 63 12oktv.the bass can more fokus on the middle on the dashboard
i just try before to make my subW on lpf 80,12oktv, but i hear the basses from subW not came from the front,but came from on my back m using MPV car, i put my sub towards to my back window, in EMMA rules it woul be better to make the subw voices came on the front with a clear n tight form, in my country usually poeple cut the lpf on 63,12otv or below
have u any clue about this problem?
do i must to make all of my drivers phase on + using a polarity checker on paa3?
sorry swez if i have to many questions hahaha thx swez...
swez on 03/20/2009 16:55:19
Definition of an Expert: "A man from out of town, carrying a briefcase".
No, am not an "expert" after 10 years on this forum and many hours in the field as a Pro Sound Tech. So, though the processes are similar, the tools and acouctical issues vary so much from project to project, we're always on a steep learning curve.
Am not familar with EMMA rules and regs, but we do know that shifting the subW to various possible locations in a vehicle, can produce several desirable or detrimental outcomes. A little experimentation will tell what works best in a given vehicle.
Okay, did find the HSK-163 info mentioned and yes, they look like first rate 3-way Comps. The question I would try to answer initially, what is the LF rolloff rate for the MB driver in your vehicle. We normally look at where F3, (-3dB) point is and work from there.
I do not see any free air plots to tell us where Fs and F3 are for the 165 woofer??? You'll have to find them with the RTA and a Pink Noise tone generator/test tone CD. I also note the crossovers and MR is 500 Hz - 4.5 KHz and TW is 4.5 KHz and up. They are selectable at 6/12 dB/octave and attenuators for the MR & TW are built into the crossovers as well. (Nice features in all)
Another thing that is lacking on the specs, the polar dispersion patterns for the MR & TW? Knowing what the dispersion patterns are, helps us aim the drivers for best imaging and minimal cancellations from R/L driver locations. This can also be determined by RTA plots and the best tools to control them are location and Variable Band Parametric EQ.
Tell me more about this paa3 tool mentioned. Am not familiar with this one and how it works and what it can do. Polarity is often reversed on the TW to keep phase alignments in optimal range. However, this is very dependent on where the TW is located in relationship to the MR and MB drivers.
Swez
PS Too many questions? Not really... it's the search for answers that is the most fun or tedious. Keep em coming and we'll try to address and research options as needed. SMILE
I did find details on the crossover points
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