I have a factory deck that I had pushing a RF 300-1 amp with two 10s. I recently added 2 12s and another RF300-1 amp. I wired in a LOC and it worked for the 2 10s when I added the 2 12s it started cutting out I wired the LOC too one amp then through the pass through on that amp to the other amp.
It cuts out afler about a minute but the power to the amps is still on but it seems to have no signal
Any help would be much apperciated
Replies (12)
swez on 03/15/2009 03:19:34
Welcome to CK!
The RF Punch P300-1 is best used with a 2 ohm load from the subs. To get the most from your system, a pair of 4 ohm, 10's or 12's per amp is the target.
What are the make and model #'s of the subs you have now? Also, what gage wire is used for the power cable to each amp? These amps are a bit power hungry, (55A's per amplifier at full power) If the amps heat up or voltage drops are notable, the amps will go into protect mode. (Excess heat, low voltage or low impedence sensors do this to protect the amps)
Are you using the rear speakers in this vehicle at all? If yes, the LOC's may not be needed and you can tap off the rear speakers to provide audio signals to each sub amp. We convert Speaker line levels to RCA levels to feed your amps.
Say more please... in much more detail,
Swez
PS What is the vehicle you are working with? (Make, year & model)
Mrfluffy on 03/15/2009 19:36:35
The car is a 2001 acura 3.2 CL type S (no navigation)
2-10s are RF P1s
2-12s are RF P2s
0 gauge going to the back then split to 4 gauge for each amp (they have not gone into protect mode)
I am using factory Bose speakers in the rear and I have the LOC tapped into them at the back (I dont have an LOC built in my amps)
As soon as it cuts out I turn it off but I have checked and the amps do stay on if I leave them on and I can hear some poping in the sub as if it is trying to get a signal. Another thing I noticed today is that if I do leave them on the signal will come back but go away
Im not an expert and you seem very smart but Im almost positive its my LOC but like I siad you probably know more than me so. I am wondering thought if you think its the LOC( which is a 2 channel 20w with one set of RCAs going to the first amp then going through that pass through to the other amp) what kind of LOC should I be looking for
swez on 03/15/2009 22:09:20
After the amps shut off, check the LOC for excess heat. My guess it will be pretty hot and just shuts down to cool.
The Bose package requires a high voltage type LOC that can handle like 50 watts per channel or more. If using a non-Bose LOC, it may not handle that extra power and shut down. Eventually, it will fry this LOC.
As noted, these amps do not have high signal, (Speaker level) inputs. They are only RCA's and a line level up to 4 volts is the max input I believe.
One thing that might work very well here is to tap off your rear speakers and use a high voltage LOC to obtain the correct voltage range for your amp RCA's. Let's have a look as I think Dave Navone makes high/low converters for Bose systems. Yep, here's a look at what Navone Engineering offers:
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?24&cat=7
I would suggest contacting Navone and ask if the following product would work for your needs:
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=362
http://www.davidnavone.com/contact.htm
Comments?
Swez
Mrfluffy on 03/15/2009 23:18:30
You are the smartest man alive
thank you for your help so much I posted this problem on some other websites and they all told me to get an HU. but I love the stock look and I am will to sacrifice SQ for that and they all called me an idiot but you actually had and answer that fit my problem for that I thank very much
Kyle
swez on 03/15/2009 23:49:42
Hi Kyle,
After working this site for almost 10 years, some things stick and come to recall as needed. (Senior moments are at hand) SMILE They don't call me "Old Man Audio" here for nothin'.
Contact Navone as directed to confirm this product will resolve your specific needs before buying one of their LOC's.
The OEM market is always looking for ways block progress, but also... getting better all the time. Aftermarket engineers are looking for ways to do it better and the consumer wins in the end. That's the free market system at work.
Finally, you mentioned a pair of RF P212's. These are Dual Coil subs and come in 4+4 and 2+2 coil configurations. The correct choice for the RF amp mentioned, would be the 2+2 DVC's, wired for a net 2 ohms. (Rockford Fosgate P2D212)
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_575P2D212/Rockford-Fosgate-P2D212.html?tp=111
If you have a pair of the 4+4 DVC's, (P2D412's) it would be better to use only 1 sub with both coils in parallel for a net 2 ohm load for this amp.
Comments/Questions?
Swez
PS Thanks for the kudos, but the "devil is in the details". Make sure the product meets your specific needs. (I think so)
SQLThump on 03/16/2009 22:00:39
Sorry to chime in so late, but the bose stereo in the Acuras of that era do have a few quirks......
The speakers run a super low load, talking one to one half oh
s here... and thats how the amps make so much power....
on that same note, the guys who told you to swap out the deck are kinda of idiots in their own right, because the acuras system is use it or lose it....swapping out the deck means swapping out all four speakers.... definitly the best sound and the way i personally go with it
But that route is not very economical, and finding a kit and harness for it is near impossible.... at work we usually have to do everything fully custom..
Does your car have the sub with the bose setup? if so i would run a pair of locs from those connetions and ditch the factory sub, that should net you a good signal for the amps...
if not i would run a loc from each rear speaker to your amp
the reason i bring this up is the super low load on the bose amps are probably taking on an even touger load wit
swez on 03/16/2009 22:53:20
Good input there SQL... Good timing too!
Yes, Bose speakers are usually ~ 2 ohms to get the output voltage up from the internal amps.
What do you think about tapping off the rear speakers w/o an LOC and just use attenuators to bring the signal voltage down to say 2.5 - 3.5 volts?
If we apply Ohm's Law, Voltage = sq rt of (Watts x Ohms) With a 2 ohm load, that's 10 volts or 50 watts. A -6dB attenuator will net 2.5 volts to the RF amps and should not freak out the Bose amps.
I agree that if this vehicle has a factory sub, that would be the right place to tap and just disconnect the sub and add an attenuator, (RCA format) and run splits to each amp.
What say you?
Swez
swez on 03/17/2009 00:21:29
I looked up the specs on this car in several places and it's a nice ride with Umph when desired. However, I see no mention of factory installed Bose system amps and speakers listed as an option. It does note a Nav package, but nothing about a Bose package in the original options list.
http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/2001/russ0031.html
Quote: "The navigation system is optional, but the AM/FM/cassette sound system with a six-CD in-dash changer is standard equipment."
If this was fitted with a Bose system, it would be noted.
Comments?
Swez
SQLThump on 03/17/2009 01:50:30
i am pretty sure its a bose system in the cl's, maybe its the standard ststem, but i swear ive seen them with the bose, maybe its the TL im thinking of....
Swez, my plan of action on this particular setup would depend on whether or not it had a sub or not. I personally dont like pigtails, so i would use a pair of locs wheter off the sub if present, or of the rears.
I like using locs because of the adjustability in case signal noise or clipping are present, you can filter that stuff out before it gets to the amp, not the case with pigtails......
in either case, all of the cls come with a real case of a factory amped system. the signal off to the amps are all databus, so the amps are useless without the deck, the speakers run such low impedence they dont work with new decks, and amps are crossed over and used to such loads, they dont function well with new speakers...
when a cd player or amp quits working, or speaker blows, their isnt many cheap options on this car..
adding a sub is about the easiest thing to do to this car, and even that isnt easy.....
best thing to do would be disconneting the factory sub and running a pair of locs, this would best simulate the load on the amp without overdriving the factory amp..
swez on 03/17/2009 03:26:54
SQL,
Since you see these things on a regular basis and I don't, we need some confirmation from MrFluffy on what he has on hand.
My original thought was if this is a Bose amped system, the Navone LOC is designed for OEM amped systems. Have a look:
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=362
A while back, Navone offered a Bose Specific LOC, but I don't see that listed on the main page. That's why a phone call was suggested to see what is the best fit for this vehicle's system.
Swez
Mrfluffy on 03/18/2009 04:29:53
Sorry it took me so long
So there in no factory Sub
my car only comes with 2 option type s with more horse power and navigation and I dont have the navigation. Im not sure who make the stock HU but the speakers are definitly bose
I am kind of broke at the moment so I havent been able to even order an loc. I have had some time to mess around with it and I have been looking on a website called ACURAZINE.com and I decided that I would change my LOC from post amp to pre amp. I though it was working but to no suprise really it cut out again but lasted a lot longer( this LOC is finished any way). also a couple comments on this signal did not seem as strong as I expected and also the quality of the signal seemed alot better.
Im wondering is the way I should be going or do you guy still think I should be putting the LOC post amp ( off the rear speakers).and if I go pre amp I was just going to get the same LOC it was a 2 channel 20w stinger LOC
Also im not sure what a attenuators is could you tell me what it is or steer me in a direction where I can get more info on this also stereo interest me alot I was just wondering where would be a good place to read more on this subject (sorry kina a wierd questio)
thanks for your help Kyle
swez on 03/18/2009 15:47:33
Hello Kyle,
We know "broke" very well here and that boat is filling up rapidly. (Plenty of company if that helps?)
The attenuator circuits mentioned are designed to drop high voltage signals, down to a level your amplifier input preamp can handle w/o degrading signal quality. For the most part, these are calibrated resistors that tap off the rear speakers and bring the speaker voltage down to a useable level to the amplifiers' input range. In this case, they may not work well with Bose systems due to the way Bose designs their package.
The typical use of most LOC's, are tapped at the HU output stage, converts Speaker Level voltages, (8-10 volts max) to Line Level voltages in the range of 2.0-4.0 volts. (RCA lines are then fed from the LOC to the input side of the amplifier.) The better LOC's have an Isolation transformer, fixed and variable resistors to adjust Signal Level voltages to Line Level ranges that the outboard amp(s) need.
1. Signal Level to speakers = 8-10 volts off typical HU's (18-22 watts into a 4 ohm speaker)
2. Line Level voltage is a low voltage source for the input side of OEM or Aftermarket amplifiers. (2.0-4.0 volts is common) In the case of your Bose system, who knows what the preamp voltage is to feed the OEM amplifiers. (Bose does not publish trade secrets)
In the case of the Navone High Wattage LOC's, these are designed to tap right off the rear speakers and provide Line Level taps to your amp inputs. The one you mentioned earlier is only 20 watts and feeding it much more will lead to a fried LOC. It sounds like that has already happened?
As for more reading, here's a great resource for many car audio topics and research:
http://www.bcae1.com/ (Entire site content)
http://www.bcae1.com/loc.htm (LOC info only)
I hope to explain in adequate detail and not leave you hanging. This reply is long, but if you break it down into small bites, it's easier to understand. If more info is needed, just ask and we'll try to simplify as best we can.
Hang in there,
Dave
PS It's better to go w/o subs for now, do some research and when you can, buy the correct product(s) for your needs. Most guys often remove all OEM parts of the system and start over.
That's very expensive and should only be done by a Pro Installer that is VERY familiar with your vehicles' needs.
It cuts out afler about a minute but the power to the amps is still on but it seems to have no signal
Any help would be much apperciated
Replies (12)
swez on 03/15/2009 03:19:34
Welcome to CK!
The RF Punch P300-1 is best used with a 2 ohm load from the subs. To get the most from your system, a pair of 4 ohm, 10's or 12's per amp is the target.
What are the make and model #'s of the subs you have now? Also, what gage wire is used for the power cable to each amp? These amps are a bit power hungry, (55A's per amplifier at full power) If the amps heat up or voltage drops are notable, the amps will go into protect mode. (Excess heat, low voltage or low impedence sensors do this to protect the amps)
Are you using the rear speakers in this vehicle at all? If yes, the LOC's may not be needed and you can tap off the rear speakers to provide audio signals to each sub amp. We convert Speaker line levels to RCA levels to feed your amps.
Say more please... in much more detail,
Swez
PS What is the vehicle you are working with? (Make, year & model)
Mrfluffy on 03/15/2009 19:36:35
The car is a 2001 acura 3.2 CL type S (no navigation)
2-10s are RF P1s
2-12s are RF P2s
0 gauge going to the back then split to 4 gauge for each amp (they have not gone into protect mode)
I am using factory Bose speakers in the rear and I have the LOC tapped into them at the back (I dont have an LOC built in my amps)
As soon as it cuts out I turn it off but I have checked and the amps do stay on if I leave them on and I can hear some poping in the sub as if it is trying to get a signal. Another thing I noticed today is that if I do leave them on the signal will come back but go away
Im not an expert and you seem very smart but Im almost positive its my LOC but like I siad you probably know more than me so. I am wondering thought if you think its the LOC( which is a 2 channel 20w with one set of RCAs going to the first amp then going through that pass through to the other amp) what kind of LOC should I be looking for
swez on 03/15/2009 22:09:20
After the amps shut off, check the LOC for excess heat. My guess it will be pretty hot and just shuts down to cool.
The Bose package requires a high voltage type LOC that can handle like 50 watts per channel or more. If using a non-Bose LOC, it may not handle that extra power and shut down. Eventually, it will fry this LOC.
As noted, these amps do not have high signal, (Speaker level) inputs. They are only RCA's and a line level up to 4 volts is the max input I believe.
One thing that might work very well here is to tap off your rear speakers and use a high voltage LOC to obtain the correct voltage range for your amp RCA's. Let's have a look as I think Dave Navone makes high/low converters for Bose systems. Yep, here's a look at what Navone Engineering offers:
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?24&cat=7
I would suggest contacting Navone and ask if the following product would work for your needs:
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=362
http://www.davidnavone.com/contact.htm
Comments?
Swez
Mrfluffy on 03/15/2009 23:18:30
You are the smartest man alive
thank you for your help so much I posted this problem on some other websites and they all told me to get an HU. but I love the stock look and I am will to sacrifice SQ for that and they all called me an idiot but you actually had and answer that fit my problem for that I thank very much
Kyle
swez on 03/15/2009 23:49:42
Hi Kyle,
After working this site for almost 10 years, some things stick and come to recall as needed. (Senior moments are at hand) SMILE They don't call me "Old Man Audio" here for nothin'.
Contact Navone as directed to confirm this product will resolve your specific needs before buying one of their LOC's.
The OEM market is always looking for ways block progress, but also... getting better all the time. Aftermarket engineers are looking for ways to do it better and the consumer wins in the end. That's the free market system at work.
Finally, you mentioned a pair of RF P212's. These are Dual Coil subs and come in 4+4 and 2+2 coil configurations. The correct choice for the RF amp mentioned, would be the 2+2 DVC's, wired for a net 2 ohms. (Rockford Fosgate P2D212)
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_575P2D212/Rockford-Fosgate-P2D212.html?tp=111
If you have a pair of the 4+4 DVC's, (P2D412's) it would be better to use only 1 sub with both coils in parallel for a net 2 ohm load for this amp.
Comments/Questions?
Swez
PS Thanks for the kudos, but the "devil is in the details". Make sure the product meets your specific needs. (I think so)
SQLThump on 03/16/2009 22:00:39
Sorry to chime in so late, but the bose stereo in the Acuras of that era do have a few quirks......
The speakers run a super low load, talking one to one half oh
s here... and thats how the amps make so much power....
on that same note, the guys who told you to swap out the deck are kinda of idiots in their own right, because the acuras system is use it or lose it....swapping out the deck means swapping out all four speakers.... definitly the best sound and the way i personally go with it
But that route is not very economical, and finding a kit and harness for it is near impossible.... at work we usually have to do everything fully custom..
Does your car have the sub with the bose setup? if so i would run a pair of locs from those connetions and ditch the factory sub, that should net you a good signal for the amps...
if not i would run a loc from each rear speaker to your amp
the reason i bring this up is the super low load on the bose amps are probably taking on an even touger load wit
swez on 03/16/2009 22:53:20
Good input there SQL... Good timing too!
Yes, Bose speakers are usually ~ 2 ohms to get the output voltage up from the internal amps.
What do you think about tapping off the rear speakers w/o an LOC and just use attenuators to bring the signal voltage down to say 2.5 - 3.5 volts?
If we apply Ohm's Law, Voltage = sq rt of (Watts x Ohms) With a 2 ohm load, that's 10 volts or 50 watts. A -6dB attenuator will net 2.5 volts to the RF amps and should not freak out the Bose amps.
I agree that if this vehicle has a factory sub, that would be the right place to tap and just disconnect the sub and add an attenuator, (RCA format) and run splits to each amp.
What say you?
Swez
swez on 03/17/2009 00:21:29
I looked up the specs on this car in several places and it's a nice ride with Umph when desired. However, I see no mention of factory installed Bose system amps and speakers listed as an option. It does note a Nav package, but nothing about a Bose package in the original options list.
http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/2001/russ0031.html
Quote: "The navigation system is optional, but the AM/FM/cassette sound system with a six-CD in-dash changer is standard equipment."
If this was fitted with a Bose system, it would be noted.
Comments?
Swez
SQLThump on 03/17/2009 01:50:30
i am pretty sure its a bose system in the cl's, maybe its the standard ststem, but i swear ive seen them with the bose, maybe its the TL im thinking of....
Swez, my plan of action on this particular setup would depend on whether or not it had a sub or not. I personally dont like pigtails, so i would use a pair of locs wheter off the sub if present, or of the rears.
I like using locs because of the adjustability in case signal noise or clipping are present, you can filter that stuff out before it gets to the amp, not the case with pigtails......
in either case, all of the cls come with a real case of a factory amped system. the signal off to the amps are all databus, so the amps are useless without the deck, the speakers run such low impedence they dont work with new decks, and amps are crossed over and used to such loads, they dont function well with new speakers...
when a cd player or amp quits working, or speaker blows, their isnt many cheap options on this car..
adding a sub is about the easiest thing to do to this car, and even that isnt easy.....
best thing to do would be disconneting the factory sub and running a pair of locs, this would best simulate the load on the amp without overdriving the factory amp..
swez on 03/17/2009 03:26:54
SQL,
Since you see these things on a regular basis and I don't, we need some confirmation from MrFluffy on what he has on hand.
My original thought was if this is a Bose amped system, the Navone LOC is designed for OEM amped systems. Have a look:
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=362
A while back, Navone offered a Bose Specific LOC, but I don't see that listed on the main page. That's why a phone call was suggested to see what is the best fit for this vehicle's system.
Swez
Mrfluffy on 03/18/2009 04:29:53
Sorry it took me so long
So there in no factory Sub
my car only comes with 2 option type s with more horse power and navigation and I dont have the navigation. Im not sure who make the stock HU but the speakers are definitly bose
I am kind of broke at the moment so I havent been able to even order an loc. I have had some time to mess around with it and I have been looking on a website called ACURAZINE.com and I decided that I would change my LOC from post amp to pre amp. I though it was working but to no suprise really it cut out again but lasted a lot longer( this LOC is finished any way). also a couple comments on this signal did not seem as strong as I expected and also the quality of the signal seemed alot better.
Im wondering is the way I should be going or do you guy still think I should be putting the LOC post amp ( off the rear speakers).and if I go pre amp I was just going to get the same LOC it was a 2 channel 20w stinger LOC
Also im not sure what a attenuators is could you tell me what it is or steer me in a direction where I can get more info on this also stereo interest me alot I was just wondering where would be a good place to read more on this subject (sorry kina a wierd questio)
thanks for your help Kyle
swez on 03/18/2009 15:47:33
Hello Kyle,
We know "broke" very well here and that boat is filling up rapidly. (Plenty of company if that helps?)
The attenuator circuits mentioned are designed to drop high voltage signals, down to a level your amplifier input preamp can handle w/o degrading signal quality. For the most part, these are calibrated resistors that tap off the rear speakers and bring the speaker voltage down to a useable level to the amplifiers' input range. In this case, they may not work well with Bose systems due to the way Bose designs their package.
The typical use of most LOC's, are tapped at the HU output stage, converts Speaker Level voltages, (8-10 volts max) to Line Level voltages in the range of 2.0-4.0 volts. (RCA lines are then fed from the LOC to the input side of the amplifier.) The better LOC's have an Isolation transformer, fixed and variable resistors to adjust Signal Level voltages to Line Level ranges that the outboard amp(s) need.
1. Signal Level to speakers = 8-10 volts off typical HU's (18-22 watts into a 4 ohm speaker)
2. Line Level voltage is a low voltage source for the input side of OEM or Aftermarket amplifiers. (2.0-4.0 volts is common) In the case of your Bose system, who knows what the preamp voltage is to feed the OEM amplifiers. (Bose does not publish trade secrets)
In the case of the Navone High Wattage LOC's, these are designed to tap right off the rear speakers and provide Line Level taps to your amp inputs. The one you mentioned earlier is only 20 watts and feeding it much more will lead to a fried LOC. It sounds like that has already happened?
As for more reading, here's a great resource for many car audio topics and research:
http://www.bcae1.com/ (Entire site content)
http://www.bcae1.com/loc.htm (LOC info only)
I hope to explain in adequate detail and not leave you hanging. This reply is long, but if you break it down into small bites, it's easier to understand. If more info is needed, just ask and we'll try to simplify as best we can.
Hang in there,
Dave
PS It's better to go w/o subs for now, do some research and when you can, buy the correct product(s) for your needs. Most guys often remove all OEM parts of the system and start over.
That's very expensive and should only be done by a Pro Installer that is VERY familiar with your vehicles' needs.
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