Good day
I am Micheal from holland(europe) and while google-ing in search for answers about my car audio setup, i came across this website! So far i've found alot of usefull info here! Thanx in advance.
Here is my queston/dilemma
I am bsy setting up a sound quality setup/installation to compete here with soundquality competitions
since i am new to this i thought i might ask u guys some info
My system consists out of the following
1.HU(dont know yet what to buy, but i am lening to the combo of alpine's iva d310 with the pxa-h701 processor)
2. Front speakers is a component from alpine....the spx-17pro(not bought yet)
3.The amps i'm planing on using are 2 zx500 and 1 zx450 from phoenix gold(already in )
4.the subs are from alpine...2 swr1222(dual voice coil)
5.Capacitor/distribution block is the phoenix gold 20farad power core
6. 2 batteries(on in front and one in the back) from a european brand used alot here
7. Wiring is kickers PKD1 (i have 2 of them available)
(the car is a toyota start...the swuare type one...been my favoritear from since i was a lill tike!)
Questions
1. Do i need 1 or 2 1/0guage wires from kicker to power all of this ?
2. What would be the ideal enclosure for the subwoofers and does it hurt soundquality wise if i would install the subs invertedly?
3. How do i wire all of this up correctly?....i have 2 batteries plus a 20farad capacitor (and where do i place the fuses/anl)......should i use an external fuse for the amps still (they dont have a internal fuse) ?
4.what is your opinion about the spx17pro component speakers from alpine,have u ever used it/tested it?
Any help will be grately appreciated...
thanx in advance.....Scandauz! GRIN
Replies (42)
swez on 03/4/2009 19:34:44
Welcome to CK Scandauz!
Nice product selections here so far and yes, a single 1/0 gage power line should be sufficient. That goes from the Pos terminal on your BAT to an inline fuse, (ANL type) of say 150A's. Keep the fuse as close as possible to the battery. (1/2 meter is good)
From the output side of the fuse, go to the CAP with 1/0 and then #4 gage wires to each amp. The grounds for each amp will match your power cable choice. Since these amplifiers do not have external fuses, a fused distribution block is recommended. It looks like each amp can be fused at 40A's for the zx-450 and 50A's for each zx-500.
Whew, these amps are vintage and very high quality amps. You'll love the way they sound if they get enough power.
One concern here, what is the amperage rating of your present ALT? All 3 amps are not huge power sucking amps alone, but when used together, they need to be well fed. Say more here please.
As for your Alpine subs, they sound great in 0.85 cf/sub chamber, sealed boxes. (Tight and crisp bass that will go low too) If you invert the subs, you can use a 0.75 cf box per sub chamber. It's best to make a box to hold both subs and each sub has it's own airspace.
Since the box is going to be pretty small and these subs have heavy magnet/motor strutures, if you invert them, the box may be tippy and that's not good for the subs. Best to do the normal route and keep the baskets inside the box.
The Alpine SPX 17 Pro Comps should sound great when paired with your zx-450 amp. Alpine makes great stuff at this level and sure to please after you get things dialed in.
Comments?
Swez
swez on 03/4/2009 22:05:20
As I think about this system you have to work with, a single zx-500 and 1 SWR-1222D would be a good thing to consider.
Why? That 50 A's of current less to contend with a modest change in overall SQL. (Sound Quality Level) Is a +3 to 6 dB gain in bass, (Can't really hear the diff) worth all the added work/cost?
Think on that a bit as SQ Comps are more about balance, install quality and how clean things sound and look when finished. The judges are "very subjective" to gear used and how clean the install is.
Frankly, if I'm going to spend the time, money and effort on a given system, it's to "please my tastes and preferences". I could care less what a panel of snobish judges think when it's coming out of my wallet. Unless there is prize money on the line to win, place or show... who gives a rip?
You have invested in some very nice gear here and that's a real plus. But if you spend $2,000, hours of tinkering and get a 10-25% return on prizes and awards, is it worth all that? (Only U can say)
Think about that,
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/5/2009 08:51:23
before i continue...my keyboard is actin up and thats why sometimes not all letters come here....
But the name is SCANDALUZ....lol
Thanks a million for your fast reply
i've read it carefully and understand what you mean
why 2 subs instead of one......welll basically because besides sound quality i truelly love the big boom bass
listen alot to hiphop/rap/reggeaton etc etc
As for the BAT question....mind i have 2 batteries plus the powercore from phoenix gold(20farad CAP) And was wondering how to hook this up(for the power hungry beasts)
plus i've been told that using a distribution block after a CAP will actually decrease the flow of enerfy of the CAP to the amplifiers meaning is best not to use the CAP because it will be absoleat(hope i typed it right)(or not to ue a distribution block.
But you are saying i should than:
main batery-after half a meter a anl-fuse -
to anl-fuse half a meter before the secondary batery-
from the secondary BAT go to the input of the CAP
and from the CAP use 4awg size wires to the amp
The CAP has 4+ an 4- connections(1- 0guage for a plus and minus) where should i mount the distribution block.
M alt is a stock 75AMP ALT..
And what are he measurements u recommend i use to build the box
I've read somewhere that u had adviced 28 3/4 x14 x11 inches
Does this result in a 0.85cf/sub?
(How do i get 0.85cf/sub....as in what times what times what....i know....it sounds pretty dumb but i cannot make the tranfer from cubiq feet to meeters...allthough i do know that 30x30x30=1cf)
Any help will greatly b appreciated and i hope u undrtand my ramblingGRIN
swez on 03/5/2009 13:10:34
Fusing both batteries is correct. This is to protect your entire electrical system if a dead short ever happened. (The fuses would blow and save everything upstream)
As for enclosure calculations, we simply take Width x Length x Height/1728. That gives us the gross external dimensions and then we have to factor in the wood thickness used and sub displacement value. In your case, the Height min will be ~14.5".
The Width of each chamber would be a 14.5" min too. (Enough room to mount the subs) The Depth is the only parameter that needs to be determined. Here's a simple calculator to use for designing your box:
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp#rec
This calculator takes wood thickness into account and gives a net internal airsapce for the subs. The displacement for Alpine's SWR 12 is 0.15 cf per sub. So, your looking at 1.0 cf/chamber plus the divider board displacement.
From running some numbers, here's a good start:
H = 14.5"
W = 31.0"
D = 12.0"
Board thickness: 3/4" MDF
Net internal airspace: 2.33 cf
Sub displacment: 0.15 x 2 = 0.30
Divider board: ~0.03 cf
Using that as a baseline, you're in the game!
Comments?
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/6/2009 02:12:13
wauw,,,,,,i'lll get crackin on this thing one time
and like u said....i will mount the subs the normal way
now...suppse i would like to add a see thru window.....just to
stirrr things up a lll....a window where u can see the basket from the subs...will the measurements change than or just stick t these measurements?
on another site it had been said that if i ground evrything correctly i will not need the capacitor......what do you suggest?
swez on 03/6/2009 03:44:49
Yes, you could add a viewing window to each chamber if you are good with a router and use 3/8" - 1/2", (10-12mm) thick plexiglass. Keep it small, (like 8" x 8" max) and mount it inside the box chamber for a clean fit and a nice finish outside the box. (This is a bit more involved, so good carpentry skills are needed) Seal it/them well with RTV type silicone so it/they stay put and won't rattle loose. This will be the last panel to install.
In reality, the Surge Cap is not a cure all for severe under voltage problems in larger sub amps. It won't hurt to use it since you already have it and the sub amps are not 1,000 + watts per each either.
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/6/2009 07:13:43
I have 2 high output gell batteries
not the normal batteries for cars
these are special made for car audio use
Man...u r the greatest.......
thanxs for all the advice......
when evrything is done imma send u some pictures
from my install
U have any more advise about tuning my front stage
or positioning the speakers/compo
thanxs in advance
swez on 03/6/2009 12:42:38
Ahh yes, I see that you mentioned that you have 2 H.O. BATs earlier. Good, as this will help a lot, provided you have enough ALT power to charge 2 batteries to full potential.
As for front stage Component install, the mids can be mounted low on each door panel and install the tweets above them. Most SQ Comp guys experiment with temporary placement of the tweeters using 2-sided tape. Once you find the location that sounds best for imaging and phase alignments, that's where you'll install them. This takes a lot of patience and time as each vehicle has its own unique sound characteristics.
The other option is to use custom made kick panel pods. Here, the pods are low on the floor and the tweeters are also mounted inside the pods. This is a great option is there's enough room for them and your feet as you drive. Imaging is often better this way as the distance ratios are balanced better. (Since there are no vehicles that set the driver in the center of the dash, time delays and phase alignments are always a bit off)
Got all that?
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/8/2009 10:39:59
Good day mr Swez
Thanxs for all the good advice
This week i am Off.....so i will start with the install
My panels have been cut out already
change in plans....
The pxa-h701 is way too expenive here
Also the iva d310
What other head unit would u recommend
i also have a phoenx gold EQ230 here in th basement collecting dust(brand new never installed)
do you think that wil be a great substitue for the pxa(i actually doubt that) and what other HU do you recommend
i would like to be able to fine tune the system with the radio with or without the EQ230.
Was thinking more in the alpine section
Another thing...wich sound deadening material do you recommend?
Thanxs again in advance(hope i'm not troubling you too much:S)
swez on 03/8/2009 18:09:46
Skip the Mr. Swez, we're pretty informal here. (Sir Knight Swez might be interesting, but I doubt the Queen would invite me to Whales for the annointing ceremonies) LOL
Tall order here Scand as this is the first time I have viewed that EQ. A 1/3rd octave EQ is great for Competition Level SQ events, but the tools to get the most out of it are not something most shops have on hand. Let alone the average backyard audio junky. (RTA, calibrated mike, test tones and sweep tone generator or pink noise generator) Yeah, 'many hours' of fine tuning is the operative word here.
Not to dampen your spirits, but that's what it takes to dial in a system of this magnitude. If you have a buddy who works in live sound or studio recordings, he'll have access to that equipment at hand and the skills to work with you on dialing things in. Do you have that kind of contacts?
As for high end HU's, the upper lines in Alpine, Kenwood, Nakamichi
and similar products, some have great tools to do a nice job at time alignments, DSP function tools, Parametric EQ and a calibrated mike system that comes with the package. These are not cheap either!
We get so few requests for this level of the game and I don't have a good recommendation for your system off the top of my thick scull. However, I would recommend that you get out the manual for that EQ and read it through carefully. Once you know what the systemoffers and find out what HU features are needed to make the most of this EQ, that will narrow the field of HU's that are compatible with this EQ.
Gee, that's a lot of text to say in basic terms... "Gee, I dunno the solution"! (Maybe it's just a "Bad Hair Day", but I cannot seem to get a feel for what this processor can do and how to get the most from it)
Read the manual carefully and then we can try to hash out some HU products that meet the needs of this processor.
Swez
PS No trouble at all. This is how we all learn new things. This just happens to be way out on the fringes where angels fear to tread. ;-)
Scandaluz on 03/11/2009 18:46:49
Good day Sir KNIGHT Swez......
Thanxs for all the assistens up til now
most say u've answered al the Q's i had thus so far
a learning alot from you
Indeed...read the manual from the EQ230 and it says that
u actually need a balanced line for it if u want too use it MAX
but hookin it up will do
as for equalization...it states that if i pass the half(either plus or mines from the slide thingies)that my system needs seriouse work/installation redoo-ing/ speaker changing etc etc.
As far as HU goes...i am leaning more towards the alpine CDA-9887 cuss of its features
And also because i will be in the entry class it(emma competition rules) it is not needed(an external processor)
So...i will hang it up since it is a collectors item anyway(th EQ230)
got good weather lately and progress is made
the enclosure isnt finished too my liking so
BACK to the DRAWING BOARD!!!!!
Owh yeah...listened to the focal sound quality cd's today
my stage is (Atleast where i think it feels like when i close my eyes) by my knees...
have the compo's firing towards eachother
any suggestions
Guess i got to tilt the woofers up towards me
the tweets or in the corner section from the windshield
left firing upwards towards headrest passenger side and right firing upwards to drivers headrest side.
(most say i like the tweets alot...they play very nice/warm...huggable
dont know how to explain how they sound)
any advice/suggestions r welcome
swez on 03/11/2009 21:55:38
Quick thought on all the EQ power in your PG EQ, we try to avoid more than a few dB of boost at any given band or adjacent bands as they all have additive effects that can degrade the overall sound we want to obtain.
In a nutshell, 1/3 band EQ is great to obtain the flattest levels in a given acoutical environ, but after that is done with the help of an RTA and calibrated mike, it's set forget and record each setting.
Also, if we want to avoid excess cancellations on our opposing door speakers, shim them a few degrees upward, but not enough that they rip your ears off in the upper midrange area. (500 - 2.5/5.0 KHz.)
As for the tweeters, avoid beaming them at the driver/passengers' heads. Most dome tweets sound best about 15 degrees off axis to the listener's ears. They typically have a 30 degree cone of dispersion and a few dB less too.
As you go through the fine tuning stage, keep these factors in mind. A few passes through the judging gate will help you find out what they are focused on. It may be more subjective on the judge then your efforts.
Peace out for now,
Sir Kinght Swez
Victor on 03/12/2009 03:11:59
Hey... i never stumbled onto this post before, dunno why ..
anyways..
Got a few choices to add to your HU list.
http://www.blaupunkt.com/in/7646829310_main.asp
http://www.blaupunkt.com/in/7648013310_main.asp
both are around $700 at a blaupunkt authorized dealer, one of the rare few HU I have adored installing , tuning and listening to.
and this one from pioneer
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Source/CD-Players/Premier/DEH-P800PRS?tab=B
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Depends on your brand affinity, budget and the features you are willing to pay for.
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Yes usually it is nice if kept simple and follow the "less is more route" , but if you can effectively use a 1/3 octave EQ , you can make your system sound wonderful.
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For staging read this....
http://www.soundstream.com/information/Tech%20-%20Competition%20Staging%20-%20Understanding%20Acoustic%20Centers.doc
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If you are looking to take part in a SQ level competition,
I would suggest using a single 10" sub installed in a sealed powered by 300wrms - 500wrms ( use a stiffer sub, to keep it tight and crisp, if possible use a class A/B here instead of the usually suggested class D for subs, since you would not be drawing a lot of current with that 300wrms amp using a class A/B will help keep the sound real clean. )
use a clean 100wrms x 4 amp powering 2 sets of high quality components rated at 75wrms. (always nice to keep some head room to achieve a cleaner response, specially in the mid freq's, which is very important to handle properly as the human hearing is most sensitive in the 1khz - 5khz range )
will be real easy to get a flat and well balanced response if you match the equipments better, keeping in mind the basics of sound and human perception of hearing....
SQ level competitions do not really need 2 x 12" subs ...
basic to keep in mind, anything above 120db is beyond the human ability to perceive in the right frame.
The difference between the loudest and faintest sounds that humans can hear is about 120 dB, a range of one-million in amplitude. Listeners can detect a change in loudness when the signal is altered by about 1 dB (a 12% change in amplitude). In other words, there are only about 120 levels of loudness that can be perceived from the faintest whisper to the loudest thunder.
anything between 110 to 120db will sound the cleanest....
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use the 3 layer damping technique.
1st - damping paint, covering almost every single inch of the sheet metal of your car.
2nd - damping sheets, at every possible place your hand can reach.
3rd - high freq absorbing foam, at the back of every plastic panel in the car.
so many many many companies manufacturing these , pick any 'reputed one' with the best quote.
really, pick any that is available in your region, things look very different on paper, but not enough in real time to make it worth spending those extra bucks.
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All this comes much much before tuning up your system with RTA's, O'scopes etc...
Hope this helps...
WELCOME TO CK COFFEE
Victor....
Comments...?
PS: YOU WILL NOT USE THAT CAPACITOR.
here are just a few suggestions to add in the 'Component Speaker' section
DLS, Dynaudio, Diamond, Focal, Morel, Rainbow.... all quality manufacturers.
( there are few others too, just noted the one's I have personally enjoyed listening to and got a chance to install or hear )
swez on 03/14/2009 13:56:42
Gee Victor, I hope that last post did not chase our reader into hiding. GRIN Good info to be sure, but a lot to digest in one meal?
Have a great week!
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/16/2009 19:17:20
whahaha.....
Nope i dont scare that easily
thanxs for the info king VicCLAP
do have some comments......WHY WONT I USE THE CAP?THINK
i ran a test stup today.....all amps installed and the cap and stock battery....must say it was sounding good
nice deep bassHAPPY
the swrs really sound nice (i know its not normal to us 2 12"but at some moments i am a BASSSSHEAADD!!!!)
using a 3way compo at the moment
(a brand in europe called magnat....a 3 way top of the line compo that sounds really sweet with the alpine tweets)
i read almost all the info on the soundstream website....especially the trunk bass one.....
the one from the compo-staging.......dont understand evrything but it makes sense and will help me towards building my setup
does it matter if u r using speakers that arent that know when u going to compete in soundquality competitions?
I really am feeling the 3way compo with alpine tweet combination
now i understand why evrybody has a 3way up front
the bass in the doors sounds really nice(at times i just off the subs amps just to hear the compo;s playin and man the bass sounds sweet)
and indeed...the mid is the hardest to dial in
gonna try some postions to try n get th most out of the midd
or maybe just buy a 4inch mid from alpine and use hat together with the tweet in the a-pillar and than the midbass from the spx in the door/kickpanel
another bad thing...i dont know how to fiberglass.......would come in handy
do know my way around wood....(no...the mdf wood;))
thats it for now...will keep u guys updated
tomorrow imma continue.....
running the set with a 1pair rca output old skool pioneer
evrything is set on the amps
looked at the radio's
is the bremen mp78 better than the mp76?
cuss here in europe the 76 is more expensive than the 76
wich of these would u choose?THINK
suggestions.comments
swez on 03/16/2009 20:13:44
A guy who wants SQ Comp gear is a fearless guy who won't mind digging deeper to get the desired results. CLAP hehe
The Cap is fine if you have it, but they do not stack up to the hype or promises. They can help with minimal light dimming, but just barely.
As for 3-way comps, there are 2 main versions:
1. A 3-way Coaxial driver with all elements in one assembly (iffy at best)
2. A 3-way separates with high quality drivers for each range and a very complex passive crossover network (Now we're loggin' with the Big Dogs)
The Coaxial version often has a lot of compromises in this design. The passive crossovers are often inferior, (Simple Caps and Coils) and cheap mids and tweets that are very hard to balance out.
The Separate's route is superior as each component is well made and balanced to the entire system with a high quality passive crossover or even active crossovers and Bi-amped.
The idea of a 4" and tweet mounted in the A pillars are a lot of work. We had one guy try this and even though he did a good glassing job, the mids and highs were aimed such that when he dialed up the SPL, these things would rip ones ears off. (Listener fatigue in a few minutes at best) If they were Bi-amped to the door MB drivers, that would help.
FYI: Bi-amping a 3-way system allows the user to use active crossover between the MB and Wid/Tweets. The Tweets are matched to the Mids and and a good 2nd Order passive crossover smooths out the transition phase between the pair. The MB driver is also amped and has active filters for a smooth transition to subs and Mid/Highs. Here, 4 channels are needed for the front stage and the MB driver may even be a 2 ohm driver for more controlled power.
A very good example of excellent 3-way Comps is the Diamond Hex Series. One can use all 3 drivers up front or install the Mid/Tw in front and the MB driver in the rear door panels, or all 3 drivers in the save vertical plane on the front doors. This system can be used all passive or Bi-amped as desired.
See this in your minds eye... each speaker element in the front stage needs to balance out and have a reasonably flat frequency response. The drivers should be in the same plane so that the sound of each element arrives at the sweet spot, all at the same time and in phase.
It is very important to use well engineered crossovers and matched speaker elements. This is the key to great SQ, plus a well planned install.
Got all that?
Swez
Victor on 03/17/2009 01:45:51
The 76 has more fine tuning capabilities with its 27 band x 4 ch EQ , active x overs and automatic eq calibration while the 78 is more versatile in terms of connectivity and external media like USB. I do not say that 78 is any less better than the 76,
the 78 too has automatic sound level calibration, 4x7 band parametric eq, 3 way active cross overs, 5v preout.
also the 78 has bluetooth, color tft screen, usb connectivity etc, which makes more sense for a daily use unit, as well as for competing.
if the 78 is cheaper than the 76 then i would not spend that extra buck on the 76. the tuning capabilities of 78 will suffice and also give me more flexibility of using different media sources.
here are the links to their manuals
http://fe0wap79.bosch.de/intershoproot/files/serviceDocuments/7646829310001_BA_GB.pdf
http://fe0wap79.bosch.de/intershoproot/files/serviceDocuments/7648013310001_BA_GB.pdf
hope this helps...
Victor...
Victor on 03/17/2009 02:40:11
While competing there are a few things to keep in mind
1 - Documenting your install at every step.
2 - Maximum possible details of equipments.
3 - Reason why you chose the equipments that you did.
4 - Photographs of install, pre-install, during the install and post install.
5 - Documenting the problems you faced while installing, and how you successfully solved them.
6 - What do you think are the plus points in your system, and where do you think your system is lacking and how in future you plan to overcome them.( this will help them know that you know what you are doing )
7 - Do not indulge in Brand discussions.
8 - Presenting the install with confidence and accepting the weakness of your install, learning and asking sensible questions for tips on improvement, they should know that you are not a rigid competitor who thinks his system is the best.
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Technically,
Coaxial's are better than seperates...
most will want to stand up and ask a big WHY .....?
Phase, distance and time delay ...
( am not comparing the speakers available in the market, i am comparing the loading of speakers on a similar axis { co- axial } to the method of installing the tweeter and MB separately )
coaxial's are point source speakers, and physically eliminate the need for tuning that arises out of separating the tweeter and the MB to different locations.
There are component speakers available in the market which can be mounted as co-axial's, while having the X-over for proper distribution of frequencies.
If installed in the right place, proper orientation and angle, it is easier to achieve a better blend, then placing the tweeter away from the MB driver.
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I have heard good talks about Magnat, the german manufacturer. Never really experience them first hand.
If those mids are getting annoying... many try damping the MR cone and have achieved desired results..
this comes way way later on, and not until you are exactly sure of what you are doing.
Applying a thin coat of varnish, and adding if required will damp many unwanted harmonics ( depends on the cone material of the MR driver too ), but this i would not suggest if you are not confident of what you are doing,
you can also try wrapping a layer of silk / cotton cloth, double fold, triple fold and experiment on the reproduction of MR freq's from the driver.
the same can be applied to a beaming tweeter.
what brand of equipment you use are not material, if you can make your system sound good with your install skills.
Blending 3 way comps gets a bit tricky due to limitations in install locations until you make custom pods or mounts... this is where your fiber glassing skill would come handy ...
can you tell us the speaker mounting options you have in this car ??
also take a few pictures of the interior of this car to help gain a better idea.
like swez says, with an active X-over and Bi/tri -amping the speakers will definitely make a very noticeable difference in reproduction as compared to the supplied passive Xovers.
if you can find /fabricate an install space for the MR driver such that they fire from below into the dashboard, i guess that might solve your MR related problem to a great extent, in terms of damping, dispersion and depth of vocals.
you should make a temporary mount for those mb / mr /tweets so that you can try different mounting locations and see what sounds best.
hope this helps...
Victor...
swez on 03/17/2009 03:53:12
Hum, we both agree on the phase alignment value of 3-way Coaxials. However, I have yet to see a well-balanced combination where the MR & TW's are not "squawky or tinny" sounding, but solid MB. (Not in mobile audio designs anyway)
Have played with some nice 3-way stage/recording monitors that were bi-amped and sounded great at $1,000.00 a pair though. But even then, the best came after Parametric EQ was used to balance out the peaks and dips in the spectrum. (RTA used to verify and Pink Noise as signal source)
We also agree on fiberglass pods on the doors to give the desired results on Component type installs. Again, all voice coils are in vertical, time & phase alignment as best as possible. Aimimg of the components is also critical. We don't want any of the drivers to "beam" directly to the ears.
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/17/2009 13:30:32
WOOOOWW....
man...u guys really deliver....!!!!!!!!GRIN
Thanxs for all the responses......
i need some time to soak this all in
on paper the bremen76 looks better(in my eyes....because of the equalisation and crossover capability((3way crossover)but i do understand what you mean)
as for the position of the 3way
the tweeters are in the upper corners of the dash
the mid range nd midbass are together in the door....the md range above the midbass
when u guys say MR or MB u guys mean midrange and midbass right?(Just making sure)
To me the magnats sound more relaxed than the alpine mid and tweet.......
i was thinking on using the MR and TWT on one channel and the MB on another channel(4channel amp = zx450)
What do you guys think?
Should i than put another crossover for the MR andTWT? or just use the crossover from the amp/radio
Was thinking on leting them fire towards me
now they are in the doorpanels.....firing across eachother
can i add pictures here so u guys can c what i mean?
looking forward to the replies(i know i've forgotten to mention certain things butwill comeback on them when i thing bout them)
Thanxs in advance!!!!!!!!
(NEED 2 LET MY BRAINCELLS SOAK THIS>>>GONNA READ IT AGAIN FOR THE 3RD TIME GRIN)
Victor on 03/17/2009 16:01:44
Ok...
please put up a refreshed equipment list.
just those that you already have with you...
and not the ones u may plan/dream of buying ...GRIN
and u could upload picture on imageshack or photobucket or boxnet , hosting sites and post the link here...
i dunno if there is another way ... SWEZ / WALT could help you with that...
swez on 03/17/2009 16:31:36
Hey guys,
I see Vic has a very solid approach to guide you to the next level. His product knowledge and recommndations are solid and based on many installs his company has done for mobile customers. In this case, Vic is the best qualified "Go-To-Guy" from here.
To that end, I will simply monitor the mail and let you guys hash out the details as needed. We're both good cooks, but too many Chief cooks in the kitchen can really spoil the main entree.
Okay Victor, it's your show and I'll just watch you work your magic as you see fit. ;-)
Swez
PS Photobucket works well for pictures that can be linked back to this site. Imageshack is a good tool for diagrams and text info. Use either or both tools as you guys see fit. SMILE
Scandaluz on 03/17/2009 19:49:13
Yes sir King VIC
MY equipment list
pioneer 2channl rca out radio(i had a sony bllackpanel cdx980 but was stolen when i forgot to arm my alarm system....i cried that day...)
tweeters frm alpine spx-17pro
midrange(4incher) and midbass(7incher) from Magnat
2 Subs alpine swr 1222dual voice coils
front amp......zx4500
sub amp 2 zx500
20farad powercore phoenix gold
1 kicker 1/0 guage up to 3000 watt installation kit(the other is spare)
crossover from the magnat 3way compo set
the 4 inch and 7 inch are installed in the door
the tweeter in the top corner of the dash
phoenix gold eq230
2 gell batteries of 500 amps each
what needs to come
good head unit(liking the blaupunkt 76 but never bought this brand due to the fact that i saw it more like how i c pyramid and those funny brands)
and pxah701 from alpine
but doubt it will come if i am satisfied with the blaupunk
this is my list of what i have
havent installed the eq230 yet
thanxs for all the advice knight swezz
this is the link to the beginning and testing phase
its now furher than what u c on the pictures
hasnt been updated since 27/2/2008
http://www.showyoursound.nl/Public/ShowCase/Showcase.asp?id=4083
(please go easy on me since i know this isnt a typical car to have such a huge install.....am a soccer for old school;)
Scandaluz on 03/17/2009 19:57:21
just uploaded a few new pix......need to take some recent photo's with the new box
Victor on 03/18/2009 03:56:07
Dave , you'll be needed here, as my knowledge of these international models and manufacturers of automobiles is very very limited, since am on a different continent.....
and we are 2 chefs who are used to working together in the same kitchen on the same dish .... but its the 3rd chef whose gotta do all the real cooking .... SMILE ...
anyways... Scandaluz
could you get pics of front and rear doors too...?
Scandaluz on 03/18/2009 04:00:35
yeah.....i can
gonna take some today and upload them lateron
the car has no rear doors....it is a 2 seater
Victor on 03/18/2009 04:04:42
ah ha... interesting..
may i tell you that your bass engine is way too powerful for a SQ system ... specially for that small car
Scandaluz on 03/18/2009 06:14:14
bass engine????
ass in...2 x12"subs ?????
For a SQ setup......
So i should just use one 12 inch, the 3way up front and 2 amps???
Victor on 03/18/2009 07:31:20
This is how the PG ZX 500 is rated... right ?
2 x 75W @ 4 ohms (12V)
2 x 150W @ 4 ohms (13.8V)
2 x 300W @ 2 ohms (13.8V)
1 x 600W @ 4 ohms bridge (13.8V)
and this is how the ZX 450 is rated...
4 x 75W @ 4 ohms (14.4V)
4 x 150W @ 2 ohms (14.4V)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st : get the car NAKED ... and do the 3 stage damping i mentioned above, before you install a single thing in that car for competition.
2nd : you said you got 2 x 500amp gel cell batteries, and a 75 amp alternator.
get the big 3 done ( here you shall use 0/1 gauge wires, also take your car to a mechanic who can shorten the pulley a bit , so that your alt gives out more power at idle speeds, and you shall not need that capacitor. If after all this , which is highly unlikely, you still see dimming and voltage drop then you can think of adding the capacitor.
with the following equipments this is how I would plan a system for this car...
1 - Blaupunkt Bremen 76 or 78 ( blaupunkt is one of the top notch HU manufacturers, and its German engineering, u can rely on it to perform equally good after 5 years too )
2 - PG ZX 500 x 2 ( one for sub, other for mids & highs )
3 - being a small car i don't see the need of rear fill with too high powered amps or speakers, but if you see the need then good quality 6" components or co-axials, powered by ZX 450 would suffice. ( is there a speaker mounting option in the rear or would you have to build something to get them in there.. ?)
4 - The Bremen has quite a lot of tweaking options and I do not see a need of any external processor ( eq, x-over etc.. to make it more complex )
5 - The MB, MR will instantly improve
a - cause of the sound damping, b - cause of giving them ample power from the ZX 500. ( your problem of the MR not sounding good would be taken care of to a great extent )
6 - That alpine swr-1222d sub will be wired in series for a net of 4 ohms load and bridged on the ZX 500. This sub will go in 1 cu.ft ( factoring the sub-displacement ) sealed enclosure for tight, crisp transients.
This is the basic plan, and it is pretty simple too... once we agree on this, we can then take this install ahead step by step.
you already have good quality wire/cables so that is one thing we don't need to worry about,
every electronic circuit in your car will have a fuse, and HU, amps are no exceptions. Although they have a fuse and other protection circuitry, it is always better to use an external fuse to secure your amps from voltage fluctuations, short circuits etc...
this should be done at 12- 16 inches from the battery terminal.
do not ever fuse the ground wires.
how to tweak and set-up all these for a final test before you appear for the competition will come later on.
but for now, we shall do the basics right and move ahead.
Victor..
Scandaluz on 03/18/2009 12:12:07
Yes King Vic
Your opinion is my command
as far as the ratings from the amps go
yea....those are correct
but isnt using the zx450 upfront (thinking bout the equalisation part here) better instead of using the zx500
so:
First deaden the car and then build the system
not a bad idea and will do it
will focuss on that main point first
than move to the trunk to build the amps and enclosure
and then move to the doors
Wasnt planing on using a rear fill so.....no problem their
as for fusing evrything externally....i haveno problem their
have enough material for all of thisss(previous installs)
quick Q's
whats a damping paint? and damping foam?
I can get my hands on some damping mats
20bij50cm wheighing at 5 kilo's per sheet:O
pending on the reply
Victor on 03/18/2009 16:25:36
Ok... sound damping..
for instance...
Damping Paint
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_24&products_id=54
Damping Sheets
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_24&products_id=572
Hi-freq absorbent foam
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_24&products_id=55
Victor...
swez on 03/18/2009 16:56:34
Hey guys, Looks like the plan is shaping up and yes, sound dampening would be a very good part of the pre-install plan. The less outside noise gets in and minimal panel vibration means a cleaner sounding system.
Paint on dampening materials are great for odd shaped surfaces and places we cannot use matted dampening materials. A few coats work best as they add mass to the panels and block external road noise too.
Foam is similar and best used for cavities we need to dampen. Most foams are spray on, expand and trim out the excess after it cures. Be careful when using this product. Some expand more than others and can actually expand enough to deform thin metal panels as it cures. Practice this so you know what to expect later. Two light coats are safer than one glob coating.
Agree that a single SWR sub is adequate for this SQ system. Go sealed and 1.0 cf internally will net the magic 0.85 cf after the sub is installed. (4 ohm configureation to bridged amp is great) This sub loves clean power and will deliver plenty of bass with only 1 sub.
If you really don't need rear fill, all the better. The front stage is what counts in such a compact vehicle. A quality set of matched components is all that is needed. The big challenge is location of the drivers and to avoid beaming mids and highs to head levels, nor firing MB/MR into a carpeted floor.
Sub & MB is pretty much "Omni-directional. (lows spread out over the entire car. As we move up into MR and TW frequencies, the sound becomes very directional and focused. That will be a challenge to overcome in SQ Competitions. Going to a few meets and see how others with a similar vehicle will give you some good ideas on what works and what gets dinged for points off. (poor imaging, phase alignment problems and dispersion characteristics)
OK Victor, we have worked very well together in the past in a tight kitchen. Let's do it together and learn something new in the process.
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/20/2009 10:22:19
Good day Knight and King
Been busy tryin to find the same product like the ones that were recommended for dampening
Found them......must say quite expensive
No worries....will purchase them cuss i need them
Been thinkin bout the idea of using only one 12 inch
must say...looked at alot of other installs and noticed indeed
only one 10 or 12inch is used in the SQ installs
made a new layout for the car/amps
will put the amps in a triangular format(upside down diamond)
so.....pending on my next paycheck to start buyin sound deadening
untill than i will b keeping myself busy with cutting out and makin
the nw layout in the car
From what i also understand is that name brand speakers dont matter but the quality of the install?
So i can use the 3 way ????(alpine tweets wid magnat MR & MB?)
thanxs again in advance
Victor on 03/20/2009 14:33:15
Michael...
Get the damping material in first.
While you damp, decide on to what equipment to buy ,
What HU ?
What rear fill ? or no rear fill ?
What components ? ............................................. ?
the last question leads to the following.
I do not know how those magnat actually sound, I do know what kind of sound the judges would be expecting, but again I dont know if you have that keen and sensitive hearing for SQ competition sound.
Mostly ( until you are expert at electronics, and know to design a crossover and find matching drivers ) a manufacturer matches the component set to compliment each other well, its designers and designing software's are highly advanced.
I would under such conditions not advice to mix up components of 2 or more different manufacturers.
Although, I personally do not think that alpine tweeter should have a problem matching with the X-over or the MB-MR , but i surely don't know if that MAGNAT component set plays worthwhile, have heard good things though.
If you are unsure , and have auditioned better sounding speakers, or have seen a few other SQ level cars, then I would suggest buying a new 2-3 way component set of a known quality manufacturer.
BUT if you trust your hearing ability and can for sure tell that those play good... then any brand or - mix match does'nt matter.
----------------------------------------------------------
What damping material did you find... and how is it priced ?
elemental designs does ship to European countries and can offer some good rates for an entire damping package.
I can tell you the approx quantity you would need for each material, and you can ask them for a quote inclusive of shipping.
Paint : 1 gallon : $ 50
Sheet ( 80 - 85 mils ): 40 sq.ft : $ 80
Teklite: 25 sq.ft : $ 50
+ Shipping : ask them for the shipping quote. ( also discuss if they would give you a better price or ship it for free )
you can mail them an inquiry, they are prompt at responding .
hope this helps...
Victor...
Scandaluz on 03/20/2009 16:38:34
this is the paint u mentioned
http://www.akoestiekwinkel.nl/vibradamp_a90-p.html
the sheets and textile
http://www.akoestiekwinkel.nl/vibraflex.html
so thats basically the amount of material to use to dampen the car?
Yup...i agree with u that the damping materials going in first
but in the mean time i dont like to sit around n let time go a waste....so i designing the trunk (taking account that the damping materials will b installed also)
Was tring to find out more information about the magnat 3way compo
I already have the alpine spx-17pro (using the tweets with the magnat 3way because it is a 3way system) meanig i can always go back and install that!
whie searching for the info about the magnat i came across the focal 3way compo set
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_10613_Focal+165+VR3.html
what is your opion on that system
u may be asking why i am leaning more towards a 3way set up
thats because i really anna cover all basics
i was also thinking about the alpine
spx-107r with the spx-17mb(ive heard that cobination play and read good reviews about it)
as for the head unit....ive been thinking and think it will most likely be the blaupunkt bremen mp76.
Wil go and listen to it one of these days
swez on 03/20/2009 17:38:59
Matched components and a 1st rate passive crossover are keys to great SQ from the beginning. However, sound dampening and critical placement of all drivers, (MB/MR/TW) are the last word to a quailty SQ install.
From there, it's dialing in the speakers to obtain a reasonably flat response curve in the vehicle. This means knowing the acoutical oddities of the vehicle in a very objective manner. (RTA, Calibrated mike, Pink Noise signal source and a solid Active EQ or Parametric EQ tools)
Placement and alignment of all drivers in the front stage are the key factors to consider. We look to avert excessive peaks and dips in a response curve plot off the RTA. Phase cancellations will produce dips in the curve. Transfer function and attenuation options on the MR/TW will help tone down the peaks. Once these are defined, then the active EQ functions are used to dial out the dips and peaks within the vehicle.
Comments?
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/24/2009 13:26:34
Guys....i've updated my showcase on
http://frontpage.showyoursound.nl/Public/Showcase/Showcase.asp?picorder=desc&id=4083
please comments
Owh yea....contacted elemental design...shipping n handling is pretty cheap...will order by them instead of buying the dampening here!!
Thanxs for all the help thus far........
swez on 03/24/2009 20:44:26
The door pods turned out pretty well here and I would suggest adding your tweeters into the door pods too. The present tweeter locations are problematic as they are beaming HF energy right at the driver and passenger. They are going to be phase alignment issus with the tweeters up at the dash too. In this scenario, adding the tweeters to the door pods should make it a lot easier to balance out the front stage. Here, a simple HP filtering capacitor, (-6dB/oct) and perhaps a resistor network for attenuation needs would be the simplest way to resolve the balance issues with other Magnat drivers
E-dead products are a good solution to sound dampening and those who have used their system have reported very good results w/o the high prices some other brands demand. Think it over and see what you can visualize in this process.
Finally, do you have a link to the Magnat MB/MR speakers installed in there now? That would be most helpful for us to figure out a reasonable way to integrate your tweeters to the Magnat drivers and crossovers you have now.
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/25/2009 06:02:47
busy searching and searching
these speakers have been discontinued for quite a while now
all i know is that it is magnat graffiti 3 way component system
i can only find the 2 way component system on the internet
continue searchin!
Scandaluz on 04/1/2009 03:11:53
Here i am back again
been done alot
Not the BIG 3 yet
just basically bussy wid the fabrication
Went from 2 subs to 1 12 inch
made new complete door panels
and did the gain settings on the amps
Man.....u guys do know what you'r talking about
a feature i love from the zx450 and zx500 is the bass knob
i can dail in bass in the front now
the system sounds much better and goes pretty loud also
didnt think it was possible with one 12 inch
now waiting on my paycheck to come in so i can order and do the damping
Owhyea....couldnt find the link about the info from the magnat speakers
but its the magnat graffiti v10 compo system
the midbass is an 8 inch driver
the midrange is a 3.5 inch driver
one thing though......the midrange sounds really loud
need to tone it down a lill
i also moved the tweeters up higher and looks like(to my ears) the stage has also moved up higher
U had mentioned that i should drop the tweet in the door area?
Where precisely
or should i just play around untill i find a good spot for it?
Thanxs in advanced!!!!!
swez on 04/1/2009 05:12:27
This must be an older series as I cannot find any listings of the Grafitti Series at all.
The crossovers for your Magnat's, are there a tweeter termination lugs to wire your tweets up to these crossovers?
If you need to tone down the MR, there's an easy way to try this if the crossover does not have built-in attenuation circuits. (Many of the better comp units have attenuation circuits for the MR & TW) Also, if your EQ is up to the challenge, cut the frequency bands between 1,000 to 3,000 Hz., and see if that tones them down a few dB. This is where multiband EQ or Parametric EQ's really help.
If there are none for the MR, consider lifting the grill cover and make cutouts of fine weave cloth that fit inside your grills. This will defuse the MR and can be coloured to look natural and blend with the install.
As for the tweeter location, there looks like a flat spot on top of your pods, between the MB/MR drivers. If there is enough space there to mount the tweeter, try that as a test before you cut the cloth.
For SQ installs, a single 12" sub that can handle 300-500 watts RMS should be plenty of bass power in such a small car. Since your amp has a Bass control feature to the dash, this will help dial in adequate bass for whatever music you listen too.
FYI: If you want to experiment with tweeter loacations, consider a temporary mount on the dash or A-Pillars and firing into the windhield, just below the rear view mirror. The windshield will bend the highs, raise the sound stage and can be a very complimentary affect. CDT offers a set of tweeters that work like this and some guys really like the results. Have a good read on this here:
http://www.cdtaudio.com/upstage_08.htm
Swez
Scandaluz on 04/1/2009 09:43:13
Will Do
Going to try that either tomorrow or friday and will get back to you on that
as for attenuations......the crossover doesnt have that
i guess since its an older model
the tweeters are wired in to the crossover of the magnats
so its playing as the magnat tweets
i dont like how the magnat tweets sounds.....to harsh and to loud
it just makes me wanna puke.....lol
so i rather use the alpines(dome tweets)
the 12 inch blends in really nice
a friend came over today......asking me why i dont have a sub in the trunk(without him knowing it he felt the bass came from out the doors in front)
with the new door panels it sounds better and less vibrations
gonna also try toning down the mr!
will keep u up2date...thanxs in advance!!!!
I am Micheal from holland(europe) and while google-ing in search for answers about my car audio setup, i came across this website! So far i've found alot of usefull info here! Thanx in advance.
Here is my queston/dilemma
I am bsy setting up a sound quality setup/installation to compete here with soundquality competitions
since i am new to this i thought i might ask u guys some info
My system consists out of the following
1.HU(dont know yet what to buy, but i am lening to the combo of alpine's iva d310 with the pxa-h701 processor)
2. Front speakers is a component from alpine....the spx-17pro(not bought yet)
3.The amps i'm planing on using are 2 zx500 and 1 zx450 from phoenix gold(already in )
4.the subs are from alpine...2 swr1222(dual voice coil)
5.Capacitor/distribution block is the phoenix gold 20farad power core
6. 2 batteries(on in front and one in the back) from a european brand used alot here
7. Wiring is kickers PKD1 (i have 2 of them available)
(the car is a toyota start...the swuare type one...been my favoritear from since i was a lill tike!)
Questions
1. Do i need 1 or 2 1/0guage wires from kicker to power all of this ?
2. What would be the ideal enclosure for the subwoofers and does it hurt soundquality wise if i would install the subs invertedly?
3. How do i wire all of this up correctly?....i have 2 batteries plus a 20farad capacitor (and where do i place the fuses/anl)......should i use an external fuse for the amps still (they dont have a internal fuse) ?
4.what is your opinion about the spx17pro component speakers from alpine,have u ever used it/tested it?
Any help will be grately appreciated...
thanx in advance.....Scandauz! GRIN
Replies (42)
swez on 03/4/2009 19:34:44
Welcome to CK Scandauz!
Nice product selections here so far and yes, a single 1/0 gage power line should be sufficient. That goes from the Pos terminal on your BAT to an inline fuse, (ANL type) of say 150A's. Keep the fuse as close as possible to the battery. (1/2 meter is good)
From the output side of the fuse, go to the CAP with 1/0 and then #4 gage wires to each amp. The grounds for each amp will match your power cable choice. Since these amplifiers do not have external fuses, a fused distribution block is recommended. It looks like each amp can be fused at 40A's for the zx-450 and 50A's for each zx-500.
Whew, these amps are vintage and very high quality amps. You'll love the way they sound if they get enough power.
One concern here, what is the amperage rating of your present ALT? All 3 amps are not huge power sucking amps alone, but when used together, they need to be well fed. Say more here please.
As for your Alpine subs, they sound great in 0.85 cf/sub chamber, sealed boxes. (Tight and crisp bass that will go low too) If you invert the subs, you can use a 0.75 cf box per sub chamber. It's best to make a box to hold both subs and each sub has it's own airspace.
Since the box is going to be pretty small and these subs have heavy magnet/motor strutures, if you invert them, the box may be tippy and that's not good for the subs. Best to do the normal route and keep the baskets inside the box.
The Alpine SPX 17 Pro Comps should sound great when paired with your zx-450 amp. Alpine makes great stuff at this level and sure to please after you get things dialed in.
Comments?
Swez
swez on 03/4/2009 22:05:20
As I think about this system you have to work with, a single zx-500 and 1 SWR-1222D would be a good thing to consider.
Why? That 50 A's of current less to contend with a modest change in overall SQL. (Sound Quality Level) Is a +3 to 6 dB gain in bass, (Can't really hear the diff) worth all the added work/cost?
Think on that a bit as SQ Comps are more about balance, install quality and how clean things sound and look when finished. The judges are "very subjective" to gear used and how clean the install is.
Frankly, if I'm going to spend the time, money and effort on a given system, it's to "please my tastes and preferences". I could care less what a panel of snobish judges think when it's coming out of my wallet. Unless there is prize money on the line to win, place or show... who gives a rip?
You have invested in some very nice gear here and that's a real plus. But if you spend $2,000, hours of tinkering and get a 10-25% return on prizes and awards, is it worth all that? (Only U can say)
Think about that,
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/5/2009 08:51:23
before i continue...my keyboard is actin up and thats why sometimes not all letters come here....
But the name is SCANDALUZ....lol
Thanks a million for your fast reply
i've read it carefully and understand what you mean
why 2 subs instead of one......welll basically because besides sound quality i truelly love the big boom bass
listen alot to hiphop/rap/reggeaton etc etc
As for the BAT question....mind i have 2 batteries plus the powercore from phoenix gold(20farad CAP) And was wondering how to hook this up(for the power hungry beasts)
plus i've been told that using a distribution block after a CAP will actually decrease the flow of enerfy of the CAP to the amplifiers meaning is best not to use the CAP because it will be absoleat(hope i typed it right)(or not to ue a distribution block.
But you are saying i should than:
main batery-after half a meter a anl-fuse -
to anl-fuse half a meter before the secondary batery-
from the secondary BAT go to the input of the CAP
and from the CAP use 4awg size wires to the amp
The CAP has 4+ an 4- connections(1- 0guage for a plus and minus) where should i mount the distribution block.
M alt is a stock 75AMP ALT..
And what are he measurements u recommend i use to build the box
I've read somewhere that u had adviced 28 3/4 x14 x11 inches
Does this result in a 0.85cf/sub?
(How do i get 0.85cf/sub....as in what times what times what....i know....it sounds pretty dumb but i cannot make the tranfer from cubiq feet to meeters...allthough i do know that 30x30x30=1cf)
Any help will greatly b appreciated and i hope u undrtand my ramblingGRIN
swez on 03/5/2009 13:10:34
Fusing both batteries is correct. This is to protect your entire electrical system if a dead short ever happened. (The fuses would blow and save everything upstream)
As for enclosure calculations, we simply take Width x Length x Height/1728. That gives us the gross external dimensions and then we have to factor in the wood thickness used and sub displacement value. In your case, the Height min will be ~14.5".
The Width of each chamber would be a 14.5" min too. (Enough room to mount the subs) The Depth is the only parameter that needs to be determined. Here's a simple calculator to use for designing your box:
http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp#rec
This calculator takes wood thickness into account and gives a net internal airsapce for the subs. The displacement for Alpine's SWR 12 is 0.15 cf per sub. So, your looking at 1.0 cf/chamber plus the divider board displacement.
From running some numbers, here's a good start:
H = 14.5"
W = 31.0"
D = 12.0"
Board thickness: 3/4" MDF
Net internal airspace: 2.33 cf
Sub displacment: 0.15 x 2 = 0.30
Divider board: ~0.03 cf
Using that as a baseline, you're in the game!
Comments?
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/6/2009 02:12:13
wauw,,,,,,i'lll get crackin on this thing one time
and like u said....i will mount the subs the normal way
now...suppse i would like to add a see thru window.....just to
stirrr things up a lll....a window where u can see the basket from the subs...will the measurements change than or just stick t these measurements?
on another site it had been said that if i ground evrything correctly i will not need the capacitor......what do you suggest?
swez on 03/6/2009 03:44:49
Yes, you could add a viewing window to each chamber if you are good with a router and use 3/8" - 1/2", (10-12mm) thick plexiglass. Keep it small, (like 8" x 8" max) and mount it inside the box chamber for a clean fit and a nice finish outside the box. (This is a bit more involved, so good carpentry skills are needed) Seal it/them well with RTV type silicone so it/they stay put and won't rattle loose. This will be the last panel to install.
In reality, the Surge Cap is not a cure all for severe under voltage problems in larger sub amps. It won't hurt to use it since you already have it and the sub amps are not 1,000 + watts per each either.
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/6/2009 07:13:43
I have 2 high output gell batteries
not the normal batteries for cars
these are special made for car audio use
Man...u r the greatest.......
thanxs for all the advice......
when evrything is done imma send u some pictures
from my install
U have any more advise about tuning my front stage
or positioning the speakers/compo
thanxs in advance
swez on 03/6/2009 12:42:38
Ahh yes, I see that you mentioned that you have 2 H.O. BATs earlier. Good, as this will help a lot, provided you have enough ALT power to charge 2 batteries to full potential.
As for front stage Component install, the mids can be mounted low on each door panel and install the tweets above them. Most SQ Comp guys experiment with temporary placement of the tweeters using 2-sided tape. Once you find the location that sounds best for imaging and phase alignments, that's where you'll install them. This takes a lot of patience and time as each vehicle has its own unique sound characteristics.
The other option is to use custom made kick panel pods. Here, the pods are low on the floor and the tweeters are also mounted inside the pods. This is a great option is there's enough room for them and your feet as you drive. Imaging is often better this way as the distance ratios are balanced better. (Since there are no vehicles that set the driver in the center of the dash, time delays and phase alignments are always a bit off)
Got all that?
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/8/2009 10:39:59
Good day mr Swez
Thanxs for all the good advice
This week i am Off.....so i will start with the install
My panels have been cut out already
change in plans....
The pxa-h701 is way too expenive here
Also the iva d310
What other head unit would u recommend
i also have a phoenx gold EQ230 here in th basement collecting dust(brand new never installed)
do you think that wil be a great substitue for the pxa(i actually doubt that) and what other HU do you recommend
i would like to be able to fine tune the system with the radio with or without the EQ230.
Was thinking more in the alpine section
Another thing...wich sound deadening material do you recommend?
Thanxs again in advance(hope i'm not troubling you too much:S)
swez on 03/8/2009 18:09:46
Skip the Mr. Swez, we're pretty informal here. (Sir Knight Swez might be interesting, but I doubt the Queen would invite me to Whales for the annointing ceremonies) LOL
Tall order here Scand as this is the first time I have viewed that EQ. A 1/3rd octave EQ is great for Competition Level SQ events, but the tools to get the most out of it are not something most shops have on hand. Let alone the average backyard audio junky. (RTA, calibrated mike, test tones and sweep tone generator or pink noise generator) Yeah, 'many hours' of fine tuning is the operative word here.
Not to dampen your spirits, but that's what it takes to dial in a system of this magnitude. If you have a buddy who works in live sound or studio recordings, he'll have access to that equipment at hand and the skills to work with you on dialing things in. Do you have that kind of contacts?
As for high end HU's, the upper lines in Alpine, Kenwood, Nakamichi
and similar products, some have great tools to do a nice job at time alignments, DSP function tools, Parametric EQ and a calibrated mike system that comes with the package. These are not cheap either!
We get so few requests for this level of the game and I don't have a good recommendation for your system off the top of my thick scull. However, I would recommend that you get out the manual for that EQ and read it through carefully. Once you know what the systemoffers and find out what HU features are needed to make the most of this EQ, that will narrow the field of HU's that are compatible with this EQ.
Gee, that's a lot of text to say in basic terms... "Gee, I dunno the solution"! (Maybe it's just a "Bad Hair Day", but I cannot seem to get a feel for what this processor can do and how to get the most from it)
Read the manual carefully and then we can try to hash out some HU products that meet the needs of this processor.
Swez
PS No trouble at all. This is how we all learn new things. This just happens to be way out on the fringes where angels fear to tread. ;-)
Scandaluz on 03/11/2009 18:46:49
Good day Sir KNIGHT Swez......
Thanxs for all the assistens up til now
most say u've answered al the Q's i had thus so far
a learning alot from you
Indeed...read the manual from the EQ230 and it says that
u actually need a balanced line for it if u want too use it MAX
but hookin it up will do
as for equalization...it states that if i pass the half(either plus or mines from the slide thingies)that my system needs seriouse work/installation redoo-ing/ speaker changing etc etc.
As far as HU goes...i am leaning more towards the alpine CDA-9887 cuss of its features
And also because i will be in the entry class it(emma competition rules) it is not needed(an external processor)
So...i will hang it up since it is a collectors item anyway(th EQ230)
got good weather lately and progress is made
the enclosure isnt finished too my liking so
BACK to the DRAWING BOARD!!!!!
Owh yeah...listened to the focal sound quality cd's today
my stage is (Atleast where i think it feels like when i close my eyes) by my knees...
have the compo's firing towards eachother
any suggestions
Guess i got to tilt the woofers up towards me
the tweets or in the corner section from the windshield
left firing upwards towards headrest passenger side and right firing upwards to drivers headrest side.
(most say i like the tweets alot...they play very nice/warm...huggable
dont know how to explain how they sound)
any advice/suggestions r welcome
swez on 03/11/2009 21:55:38
Quick thought on all the EQ power in your PG EQ, we try to avoid more than a few dB of boost at any given band or adjacent bands as they all have additive effects that can degrade the overall sound we want to obtain.
In a nutshell, 1/3 band EQ is great to obtain the flattest levels in a given acoutical environ, but after that is done with the help of an RTA and calibrated mike, it's set forget and record each setting.
Also, if we want to avoid excess cancellations on our opposing door speakers, shim them a few degrees upward, but not enough that they rip your ears off in the upper midrange area. (500 - 2.5/5.0 KHz.)
As for the tweeters, avoid beaming them at the driver/passengers' heads. Most dome tweets sound best about 15 degrees off axis to the listener's ears. They typically have a 30 degree cone of dispersion and a few dB less too.
As you go through the fine tuning stage, keep these factors in mind. A few passes through the judging gate will help you find out what they are focused on. It may be more subjective on the judge then your efforts.
Peace out for now,
Sir Kinght Swez
Victor on 03/12/2009 03:11:59
Hey... i never stumbled onto this post before, dunno why ..
anyways..
Got a few choices to add to your HU list.
http://www.blaupunkt.com/in/7646829310_main.asp
http://www.blaupunkt.com/in/7648013310_main.asp
both are around $700 at a blaupunkt authorized dealer, one of the rare few HU I have adored installing , tuning and listening to.
and this one from pioneer
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Source/CD-Players/Premier/DEH-P800PRS?tab=B
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Depends on your brand affinity, budget and the features you are willing to pay for.
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Yes usually it is nice if kept simple and follow the "less is more route" , but if you can effectively use a 1/3 octave EQ , you can make your system sound wonderful.
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For staging read this....
http://www.soundstream.com/information/Tech%20-%20Competition%20Staging%20-%20Understanding%20Acoustic%20Centers.doc
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If you are looking to take part in a SQ level competition,
I would suggest using a single 10" sub installed in a sealed powered by 300wrms - 500wrms ( use a stiffer sub, to keep it tight and crisp, if possible use a class A/B here instead of the usually suggested class D for subs, since you would not be drawing a lot of current with that 300wrms amp using a class A/B will help keep the sound real clean. )
use a clean 100wrms x 4 amp powering 2 sets of high quality components rated at 75wrms. (always nice to keep some head room to achieve a cleaner response, specially in the mid freq's, which is very important to handle properly as the human hearing is most sensitive in the 1khz - 5khz range )
will be real easy to get a flat and well balanced response if you match the equipments better, keeping in mind the basics of sound and human perception of hearing....
SQ level competitions do not really need 2 x 12" subs ...
basic to keep in mind, anything above 120db is beyond the human ability to perceive in the right frame.
The difference between the loudest and faintest sounds that humans can hear is about 120 dB, a range of one-million in amplitude. Listeners can detect a change in loudness when the signal is altered by about 1 dB (a 12% change in amplitude). In other words, there are only about 120 levels of loudness that can be perceived from the faintest whisper to the loudest thunder.
anything between 110 to 120db will sound the cleanest....
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use the 3 layer damping technique.
1st - damping paint, covering almost every single inch of the sheet metal of your car.
2nd - damping sheets, at every possible place your hand can reach.
3rd - high freq absorbing foam, at the back of every plastic panel in the car.
so many many many companies manufacturing these , pick any 'reputed one' with the best quote.
really, pick any that is available in your region, things look very different on paper, but not enough in real time to make it worth spending those extra bucks.
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All this comes much much before tuning up your system with RTA's, O'scopes etc...
Hope this helps...
WELCOME TO CK COFFEE
Victor....
Comments...?
PS: YOU WILL NOT USE THAT CAPACITOR.
here are just a few suggestions to add in the 'Component Speaker' section
DLS, Dynaudio, Diamond, Focal, Morel, Rainbow.... all quality manufacturers.
( there are few others too, just noted the one's I have personally enjoyed listening to and got a chance to install or hear )
swez on 03/14/2009 13:56:42
Gee Victor, I hope that last post did not chase our reader into hiding. GRIN Good info to be sure, but a lot to digest in one meal?
Have a great week!
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/16/2009 19:17:20
whahaha.....
Nope i dont scare that easily
thanxs for the info king VicCLAP
do have some comments......WHY WONT I USE THE CAP?THINK
i ran a test stup today.....all amps installed and the cap and stock battery....must say it was sounding good
nice deep bassHAPPY
the swrs really sound nice (i know its not normal to us 2 12"but at some moments i am a BASSSSHEAADD!!!!)
using a 3way compo at the moment
(a brand in europe called magnat....a 3 way top of the line compo that sounds really sweet with the alpine tweets)
i read almost all the info on the soundstream website....especially the trunk bass one.....
the one from the compo-staging.......dont understand evrything but it makes sense and will help me towards building my setup
does it matter if u r using speakers that arent that know when u going to compete in soundquality competitions?
I really am feeling the 3way compo with alpine tweet combination
now i understand why evrybody has a 3way up front
the bass in the doors sounds really nice(at times i just off the subs amps just to hear the compo;s playin and man the bass sounds sweet)
and indeed...the mid is the hardest to dial in
gonna try some postions to try n get th most out of the midd
or maybe just buy a 4inch mid from alpine and use hat together with the tweet in the a-pillar and than the midbass from the spx in the door/kickpanel
another bad thing...i dont know how to fiberglass.......would come in handy
do know my way around wood....(no...the mdf wood;))
thats it for now...will keep u guys updated
tomorrow imma continue.....
running the set with a 1pair rca output old skool pioneer
evrything is set on the amps
looked at the radio's
is the bremen mp78 better than the mp76?
cuss here in europe the 76 is more expensive than the 76
wich of these would u choose?THINK
suggestions.comments
swez on 03/16/2009 20:13:44
A guy who wants SQ Comp gear is a fearless guy who won't mind digging deeper to get the desired results. CLAP hehe
The Cap is fine if you have it, but they do not stack up to the hype or promises. They can help with minimal light dimming, but just barely.
As for 3-way comps, there are 2 main versions:
1. A 3-way Coaxial driver with all elements in one assembly (iffy at best)
2. A 3-way separates with high quality drivers for each range and a very complex passive crossover network (Now we're loggin' with the Big Dogs)
The Coaxial version often has a lot of compromises in this design. The passive crossovers are often inferior, (Simple Caps and Coils) and cheap mids and tweets that are very hard to balance out.
The Separate's route is superior as each component is well made and balanced to the entire system with a high quality passive crossover or even active crossovers and Bi-amped.
The idea of a 4" and tweet mounted in the A pillars are a lot of work. We had one guy try this and even though he did a good glassing job, the mids and highs were aimed such that when he dialed up the SPL, these things would rip ones ears off. (Listener fatigue in a few minutes at best) If they were Bi-amped to the door MB drivers, that would help.
FYI: Bi-amping a 3-way system allows the user to use active crossover between the MB and Wid/Tweets. The Tweets are matched to the Mids and and a good 2nd Order passive crossover smooths out the transition phase between the pair. The MB driver is also amped and has active filters for a smooth transition to subs and Mid/Highs. Here, 4 channels are needed for the front stage and the MB driver may even be a 2 ohm driver for more controlled power.
A very good example of excellent 3-way Comps is the Diamond Hex Series. One can use all 3 drivers up front or install the Mid/Tw in front and the MB driver in the rear door panels, or all 3 drivers in the save vertical plane on the front doors. This system can be used all passive or Bi-amped as desired.
See this in your minds eye... each speaker element in the front stage needs to balance out and have a reasonably flat frequency response. The drivers should be in the same plane so that the sound of each element arrives at the sweet spot, all at the same time and in phase.
It is very important to use well engineered crossovers and matched speaker elements. This is the key to great SQ, plus a well planned install.
Got all that?
Swez
Victor on 03/17/2009 01:45:51
The 76 has more fine tuning capabilities with its 27 band x 4 ch EQ , active x overs and automatic eq calibration while the 78 is more versatile in terms of connectivity and external media like USB. I do not say that 78 is any less better than the 76,
the 78 too has automatic sound level calibration, 4x7 band parametric eq, 3 way active cross overs, 5v preout.
also the 78 has bluetooth, color tft screen, usb connectivity etc, which makes more sense for a daily use unit, as well as for competing.
if the 78 is cheaper than the 76 then i would not spend that extra buck on the 76. the tuning capabilities of 78 will suffice and also give me more flexibility of using different media sources.
here are the links to their manuals
http://fe0wap79.bosch.de/intershoproot/files/serviceDocuments/7646829310001_BA_GB.pdf
http://fe0wap79.bosch.de/intershoproot/files/serviceDocuments/7648013310001_BA_GB.pdf
hope this helps...
Victor...
Victor on 03/17/2009 02:40:11
While competing there are a few things to keep in mind
1 - Documenting your install at every step.
2 - Maximum possible details of equipments.
3 - Reason why you chose the equipments that you did.
4 - Photographs of install, pre-install, during the install and post install.
5 - Documenting the problems you faced while installing, and how you successfully solved them.
6 - What do you think are the plus points in your system, and where do you think your system is lacking and how in future you plan to overcome them.( this will help them know that you know what you are doing )
7 - Do not indulge in Brand discussions.
8 - Presenting the install with confidence and accepting the weakness of your install, learning and asking sensible questions for tips on improvement, they should know that you are not a rigid competitor who thinks his system is the best.
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Technically,
Coaxial's are better than seperates...
most will want to stand up and ask a big WHY .....?
Phase, distance and time delay ...
( am not comparing the speakers available in the market, i am comparing the loading of speakers on a similar axis { co- axial } to the method of installing the tweeter and MB separately )
coaxial's are point source speakers, and physically eliminate the need for tuning that arises out of separating the tweeter and the MB to different locations.
There are component speakers available in the market which can be mounted as co-axial's, while having the X-over for proper distribution of frequencies.
If installed in the right place, proper orientation and angle, it is easier to achieve a better blend, then placing the tweeter away from the MB driver.
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I have heard good talks about Magnat, the german manufacturer. Never really experience them first hand.
If those mids are getting annoying... many try damping the MR cone and have achieved desired results..
this comes way way later on, and not until you are exactly sure of what you are doing.
Applying a thin coat of varnish, and adding if required will damp many unwanted harmonics ( depends on the cone material of the MR driver too ), but this i would not suggest if you are not confident of what you are doing,
you can also try wrapping a layer of silk / cotton cloth, double fold, triple fold and experiment on the reproduction of MR freq's from the driver.
the same can be applied to a beaming tweeter.
what brand of equipment you use are not material, if you can make your system sound good with your install skills.
Blending 3 way comps gets a bit tricky due to limitations in install locations until you make custom pods or mounts... this is where your fiber glassing skill would come handy ...
can you tell us the speaker mounting options you have in this car ??
also take a few pictures of the interior of this car to help gain a better idea.
like swez says, with an active X-over and Bi/tri -amping the speakers will definitely make a very noticeable difference in reproduction as compared to the supplied passive Xovers.
if you can find /fabricate an install space for the MR driver such that they fire from below into the dashboard, i guess that might solve your MR related problem to a great extent, in terms of damping, dispersion and depth of vocals.
you should make a temporary mount for those mb / mr /tweets so that you can try different mounting locations and see what sounds best.
hope this helps...
Victor...
swez on 03/17/2009 03:53:12
Hum, we both agree on the phase alignment value of 3-way Coaxials. However, I have yet to see a well-balanced combination where the MR & TW's are not "squawky or tinny" sounding, but solid MB. (Not in mobile audio designs anyway)
Have played with some nice 3-way stage/recording monitors that were bi-amped and sounded great at $1,000.00 a pair though. But even then, the best came after Parametric EQ was used to balance out the peaks and dips in the spectrum. (RTA used to verify and Pink Noise as signal source)
We also agree on fiberglass pods on the doors to give the desired results on Component type installs. Again, all voice coils are in vertical, time & phase alignment as best as possible. Aimimg of the components is also critical. We don't want any of the drivers to "beam" directly to the ears.
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/17/2009 13:30:32
WOOOOWW....
man...u guys really deliver....!!!!!!!!GRIN
Thanxs for all the responses......
i need some time to soak this all in
on paper the bremen76 looks better(in my eyes....because of the equalisation and crossover capability((3way crossover)but i do understand what you mean)
as for the position of the 3way
the tweeters are in the upper corners of the dash
the mid range nd midbass are together in the door....the md range above the midbass
when u guys say MR or MB u guys mean midrange and midbass right?(Just making sure)
To me the magnats sound more relaxed than the alpine mid and tweet.......
i was thinking on using the MR and TWT on one channel and the MB on another channel(4channel amp = zx450)
What do you guys think?
Should i than put another crossover for the MR andTWT? or just use the crossover from the amp/radio
Was thinking on leting them fire towards me
now they are in the doorpanels.....firing across eachother
can i add pictures here so u guys can c what i mean?
looking forward to the replies(i know i've forgotten to mention certain things butwill comeback on them when i thing bout them)
Thanxs in advance!!!!!!!!
(NEED 2 LET MY BRAINCELLS SOAK THIS>>>GONNA READ IT AGAIN FOR THE 3RD TIME GRIN)
Victor on 03/17/2009 16:01:44
Ok...
please put up a refreshed equipment list.
just those that you already have with you...
and not the ones u may plan/dream of buying ...GRIN
and u could upload picture on imageshack or photobucket or boxnet , hosting sites and post the link here...
i dunno if there is another way ... SWEZ / WALT could help you with that...
swez on 03/17/2009 16:31:36
Hey guys,
I see Vic has a very solid approach to guide you to the next level. His product knowledge and recommndations are solid and based on many installs his company has done for mobile customers. In this case, Vic is the best qualified "Go-To-Guy" from here.
To that end, I will simply monitor the mail and let you guys hash out the details as needed. We're both good cooks, but too many Chief cooks in the kitchen can really spoil the main entree.
Okay Victor, it's your show and I'll just watch you work your magic as you see fit. ;-)
Swez
PS Photobucket works well for pictures that can be linked back to this site. Imageshack is a good tool for diagrams and text info. Use either or both tools as you guys see fit. SMILE
Scandaluz on 03/17/2009 19:49:13
Yes sir King VIC
MY equipment list
pioneer 2channl rca out radio(i had a sony bllackpanel cdx980 but was stolen when i forgot to arm my alarm system....i cried that day...)
tweeters frm alpine spx-17pro
midrange(4incher) and midbass(7incher) from Magnat
2 Subs alpine swr 1222dual voice coils
front amp......zx4500
sub amp 2 zx500
20farad powercore phoenix gold
1 kicker 1/0 guage up to 3000 watt installation kit(the other is spare)
crossover from the magnat 3way compo set
the 4 inch and 7 inch are installed in the door
the tweeter in the top corner of the dash
phoenix gold eq230
2 gell batteries of 500 amps each
what needs to come
good head unit(liking the blaupunkt 76 but never bought this brand due to the fact that i saw it more like how i c pyramid and those funny brands)
and pxah701 from alpine
but doubt it will come if i am satisfied with the blaupunk
this is my list of what i have
havent installed the eq230 yet
thanxs for all the advice knight swezz
this is the link to the beginning and testing phase
its now furher than what u c on the pictures
hasnt been updated since 27/2/2008
http://www.showyoursound.nl/Public/ShowCase/Showcase.asp?id=4083
(please go easy on me since i know this isnt a typical car to have such a huge install.....am a soccer for old school;)
Scandaluz on 03/17/2009 19:57:21
just uploaded a few new pix......need to take some recent photo's with the new box
Victor on 03/18/2009 03:56:07
Dave , you'll be needed here, as my knowledge of these international models and manufacturers of automobiles is very very limited, since am on a different continent.....
and we are 2 chefs who are used to working together in the same kitchen on the same dish .... but its the 3rd chef whose gotta do all the real cooking .... SMILE ...
anyways... Scandaluz
could you get pics of front and rear doors too...?
Scandaluz on 03/18/2009 04:00:35
yeah.....i can
gonna take some today and upload them lateron
the car has no rear doors....it is a 2 seater
Victor on 03/18/2009 04:04:42
ah ha... interesting..
may i tell you that your bass engine is way too powerful for a SQ system ... specially for that small car
Scandaluz on 03/18/2009 06:14:14
bass engine????
ass in...2 x12"subs ?????
For a SQ setup......
So i should just use one 12 inch, the 3way up front and 2 amps???
Victor on 03/18/2009 07:31:20
This is how the PG ZX 500 is rated... right ?
2 x 75W @ 4 ohms (12V)
2 x 150W @ 4 ohms (13.8V)
2 x 300W @ 2 ohms (13.8V)
1 x 600W @ 4 ohms bridge (13.8V)
and this is how the ZX 450 is rated...
4 x 75W @ 4 ohms (14.4V)
4 x 150W @ 2 ohms (14.4V)
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1st : get the car NAKED ... and do the 3 stage damping i mentioned above, before you install a single thing in that car for competition.
2nd : you said you got 2 x 500amp gel cell batteries, and a 75 amp alternator.
get the big 3 done ( here you shall use 0/1 gauge wires, also take your car to a mechanic who can shorten the pulley a bit , so that your alt gives out more power at idle speeds, and you shall not need that capacitor. If after all this , which is highly unlikely, you still see dimming and voltage drop then you can think of adding the capacitor.
with the following equipments this is how I would plan a system for this car...
1 - Blaupunkt Bremen 76 or 78 ( blaupunkt is one of the top notch HU manufacturers, and its German engineering, u can rely on it to perform equally good after 5 years too )
2 - PG ZX 500 x 2 ( one for sub, other for mids & highs )
3 - being a small car i don't see the need of rear fill with too high powered amps or speakers, but if you see the need then good quality 6" components or co-axials, powered by ZX 450 would suffice. ( is there a speaker mounting option in the rear or would you have to build something to get them in there.. ?)
4 - The Bremen has quite a lot of tweaking options and I do not see a need of any external processor ( eq, x-over etc.. to make it more complex )
5 - The MB, MR will instantly improve
a - cause of the sound damping, b - cause of giving them ample power from the ZX 500. ( your problem of the MR not sounding good would be taken care of to a great extent )
6 - That alpine swr-1222d sub will be wired in series for a net of 4 ohms load and bridged on the ZX 500. This sub will go in 1 cu.ft ( factoring the sub-displacement ) sealed enclosure for tight, crisp transients.
This is the basic plan, and it is pretty simple too... once we agree on this, we can then take this install ahead step by step.
you already have good quality wire/cables so that is one thing we don't need to worry about,
every electronic circuit in your car will have a fuse, and HU, amps are no exceptions. Although they have a fuse and other protection circuitry, it is always better to use an external fuse to secure your amps from voltage fluctuations, short circuits etc...
this should be done at 12- 16 inches from the battery terminal.
do not ever fuse the ground wires.
how to tweak and set-up all these for a final test before you appear for the competition will come later on.
but for now, we shall do the basics right and move ahead.
Victor..
Scandaluz on 03/18/2009 12:12:07
Yes King Vic
Your opinion is my command
as far as the ratings from the amps go
yea....those are correct
but isnt using the zx450 upfront (thinking bout the equalisation part here) better instead of using the zx500
so:
First deaden the car and then build the system
not a bad idea and will do it
will focuss on that main point first
than move to the trunk to build the amps and enclosure
and then move to the doors
Wasnt planing on using a rear fill so.....no problem their
as for fusing evrything externally....i haveno problem their
have enough material for all of thisss(previous installs)
quick Q's
whats a damping paint? and damping foam?
I can get my hands on some damping mats
20bij50cm wheighing at 5 kilo's per sheet:O
pending on the reply
Victor on 03/18/2009 16:25:36
Ok... sound damping..
for instance...
Damping Paint
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_24&products_id=54
Damping Sheets
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_24&products_id=572
Hi-freq absorbent foam
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_24&products_id=55
Victor...
swez on 03/18/2009 16:56:34
Hey guys, Looks like the plan is shaping up and yes, sound dampening would be a very good part of the pre-install plan. The less outside noise gets in and minimal panel vibration means a cleaner sounding system.
Paint on dampening materials are great for odd shaped surfaces and places we cannot use matted dampening materials. A few coats work best as they add mass to the panels and block external road noise too.
Foam is similar and best used for cavities we need to dampen. Most foams are spray on, expand and trim out the excess after it cures. Be careful when using this product. Some expand more than others and can actually expand enough to deform thin metal panels as it cures. Practice this so you know what to expect later. Two light coats are safer than one glob coating.
Agree that a single SWR sub is adequate for this SQ system. Go sealed and 1.0 cf internally will net the magic 0.85 cf after the sub is installed. (4 ohm configureation to bridged amp is great) This sub loves clean power and will deliver plenty of bass with only 1 sub.
If you really don't need rear fill, all the better. The front stage is what counts in such a compact vehicle. A quality set of matched components is all that is needed. The big challenge is location of the drivers and to avoid beaming mids and highs to head levels, nor firing MB/MR into a carpeted floor.
Sub & MB is pretty much "Omni-directional. (lows spread out over the entire car. As we move up into MR and TW frequencies, the sound becomes very directional and focused. That will be a challenge to overcome in SQ Competitions. Going to a few meets and see how others with a similar vehicle will give you some good ideas on what works and what gets dinged for points off. (poor imaging, phase alignment problems and dispersion characteristics)
OK Victor, we have worked very well together in the past in a tight kitchen. Let's do it together and learn something new in the process.
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/20/2009 10:22:19
Good day Knight and King
Been busy tryin to find the same product like the ones that were recommended for dampening
Found them......must say quite expensive
No worries....will purchase them cuss i need them
Been thinkin bout the idea of using only one 12 inch
must say...looked at alot of other installs and noticed indeed
only one 10 or 12inch is used in the SQ installs
made a new layout for the car/amps
will put the amps in a triangular format(upside down diamond)
so.....pending on my next paycheck to start buyin sound deadening
untill than i will b keeping myself busy with cutting out and makin
the nw layout in the car
From what i also understand is that name brand speakers dont matter but the quality of the install?
So i can use the 3 way ????(alpine tweets wid magnat MR & MB?)
thanxs again in advance
Victor on 03/20/2009 14:33:15
Michael...
Get the damping material in first.
While you damp, decide on to what equipment to buy ,
What HU ?
What rear fill ? or no rear fill ?
What components ? ............................................. ?
the last question leads to the following.
I do not know how those magnat actually sound, I do know what kind of sound the judges would be expecting, but again I dont know if you have that keen and sensitive hearing for SQ competition sound.
Mostly ( until you are expert at electronics, and know to design a crossover and find matching drivers ) a manufacturer matches the component set to compliment each other well, its designers and designing software's are highly advanced.
I would under such conditions not advice to mix up components of 2 or more different manufacturers.
Although, I personally do not think that alpine tweeter should have a problem matching with the X-over or the MB-MR , but i surely don't know if that MAGNAT component set plays worthwhile, have heard good things though.
If you are unsure , and have auditioned better sounding speakers, or have seen a few other SQ level cars, then I would suggest buying a new 2-3 way component set of a known quality manufacturer.
BUT if you trust your hearing ability and can for sure tell that those play good... then any brand or - mix match does'nt matter.
----------------------------------------------------------
What damping material did you find... and how is it priced ?
elemental designs does ship to European countries and can offer some good rates for an entire damping package.
I can tell you the approx quantity you would need for each material, and you can ask them for a quote inclusive of shipping.
Paint : 1 gallon : $ 50
Sheet ( 80 - 85 mils ): 40 sq.ft : $ 80
Teklite: 25 sq.ft : $ 50
+ Shipping : ask them for the shipping quote. ( also discuss if they would give you a better price or ship it for free )
you can mail them an inquiry, they are prompt at responding .
hope this helps...
Victor...
Scandaluz on 03/20/2009 16:38:34
this is the paint u mentioned
http://www.akoestiekwinkel.nl/vibradamp_a90-p.html
the sheets and textile
http://www.akoestiekwinkel.nl/vibraflex.html
so thats basically the amount of material to use to dampen the car?
Yup...i agree with u that the damping materials going in first
but in the mean time i dont like to sit around n let time go a waste....so i designing the trunk (taking account that the damping materials will b installed also)
Was tring to find out more information about the magnat 3way compo
I already have the alpine spx-17pro (using the tweets with the magnat 3way because it is a 3way system) meanig i can always go back and install that!
whie searching for the info about the magnat i came across the focal 3way compo set
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_10613_Focal+165+VR3.html
what is your opion on that system
u may be asking why i am leaning more towards a 3way set up
thats because i really anna cover all basics
i was also thinking about the alpine
spx-107r with the spx-17mb(ive heard that cobination play and read good reviews about it)
as for the head unit....ive been thinking and think it will most likely be the blaupunkt bremen mp76.
Wil go and listen to it one of these days
swez on 03/20/2009 17:38:59
Matched components and a 1st rate passive crossover are keys to great SQ from the beginning. However, sound dampening and critical placement of all drivers, (MB/MR/TW) are the last word to a quailty SQ install.
From there, it's dialing in the speakers to obtain a reasonably flat response curve in the vehicle. This means knowing the acoutical oddities of the vehicle in a very objective manner. (RTA, Calibrated mike, Pink Noise signal source and a solid Active EQ or Parametric EQ tools)
Placement and alignment of all drivers in the front stage are the key factors to consider. We look to avert excessive peaks and dips in a response curve plot off the RTA. Phase cancellations will produce dips in the curve. Transfer function and attenuation options on the MR/TW will help tone down the peaks. Once these are defined, then the active EQ functions are used to dial out the dips and peaks within the vehicle.
Comments?
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/24/2009 13:26:34
Guys....i've updated my showcase on
http://frontpage.showyoursound.nl/Public/Showcase/Showcase.asp?picorder=desc&id=4083
please comments
Owh yea....contacted elemental design...shipping n handling is pretty cheap...will order by them instead of buying the dampening here!!
Thanxs for all the help thus far........
swez on 03/24/2009 20:44:26
The door pods turned out pretty well here and I would suggest adding your tweeters into the door pods too. The present tweeter locations are problematic as they are beaming HF energy right at the driver and passenger. They are going to be phase alignment issus with the tweeters up at the dash too. In this scenario, adding the tweeters to the door pods should make it a lot easier to balance out the front stage. Here, a simple HP filtering capacitor, (-6dB/oct) and perhaps a resistor network for attenuation needs would be the simplest way to resolve the balance issues with other Magnat drivers
E-dead products are a good solution to sound dampening and those who have used their system have reported very good results w/o the high prices some other brands demand. Think it over and see what you can visualize in this process.
Finally, do you have a link to the Magnat MB/MR speakers installed in there now? That would be most helpful for us to figure out a reasonable way to integrate your tweeters to the Magnat drivers and crossovers you have now.
Swez
Scandaluz on 03/25/2009 06:02:47
busy searching and searching
these speakers have been discontinued for quite a while now
all i know is that it is magnat graffiti 3 way component system
i can only find the 2 way component system on the internet
continue searchin!
Scandaluz on 04/1/2009 03:11:53
Here i am back again
been done alot
Not the BIG 3 yet
just basically bussy wid the fabrication
Went from 2 subs to 1 12 inch
made new complete door panels
and did the gain settings on the amps
Man.....u guys do know what you'r talking about
a feature i love from the zx450 and zx500 is the bass knob
i can dail in bass in the front now
the system sounds much better and goes pretty loud also
didnt think it was possible with one 12 inch
now waiting on my paycheck to come in so i can order and do the damping
Owhyea....couldnt find the link about the info from the magnat speakers
but its the magnat graffiti v10 compo system
the midbass is an 8 inch driver
the midrange is a 3.5 inch driver
one thing though......the midrange sounds really loud
need to tone it down a lill
i also moved the tweeters up higher and looks like(to my ears) the stage has also moved up higher
U had mentioned that i should drop the tweet in the door area?
Where precisely
or should i just play around untill i find a good spot for it?
Thanxs in advanced!!!!!
swez on 04/1/2009 05:12:27
This must be an older series as I cannot find any listings of the Grafitti Series at all.
The crossovers for your Magnat's, are there a tweeter termination lugs to wire your tweets up to these crossovers?
If you need to tone down the MR, there's an easy way to try this if the crossover does not have built-in attenuation circuits. (Many of the better comp units have attenuation circuits for the MR & TW) Also, if your EQ is up to the challenge, cut the frequency bands between 1,000 to 3,000 Hz., and see if that tones them down a few dB. This is where multiband EQ or Parametric EQ's really help.
If there are none for the MR, consider lifting the grill cover and make cutouts of fine weave cloth that fit inside your grills. This will defuse the MR and can be coloured to look natural and blend with the install.
As for the tweeter location, there looks like a flat spot on top of your pods, between the MB/MR drivers. If there is enough space there to mount the tweeter, try that as a test before you cut the cloth.
For SQ installs, a single 12" sub that can handle 300-500 watts RMS should be plenty of bass power in such a small car. Since your amp has a Bass control feature to the dash, this will help dial in adequate bass for whatever music you listen too.
FYI: If you want to experiment with tweeter loacations, consider a temporary mount on the dash or A-Pillars and firing into the windhield, just below the rear view mirror. The windshield will bend the highs, raise the sound stage and can be a very complimentary affect. CDT offers a set of tweeters that work like this and some guys really like the results. Have a good read on this here:
http://www.cdtaudio.com/upstage_08.htm
Swez
Scandaluz on 04/1/2009 09:43:13
Will Do
Going to try that either tomorrow or friday and will get back to you on that
as for attenuations......the crossover doesnt have that
i guess since its an older model
the tweeters are wired in to the crossover of the magnats
so its playing as the magnat tweets
i dont like how the magnat tweets sounds.....to harsh and to loud
it just makes me wanna puke.....lol
so i rather use the alpines(dome tweets)
the 12 inch blends in really nice
a friend came over today......asking me why i dont have a sub in the trunk(without him knowing it he felt the bass came from out the doors in front)
with the new door panels it sounds better and less vibrations
gonna also try toning down the mr!
will keep u up2date...thanxs in advance!!!!
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