Hi all newbie audio guy here so hang in there please. I just bought a orion hcca 12" 1200 watt sub woofer a box and amp. Im not to sure anything about them and cant find any specs online to help me out and while searching came upon you guys helping Ricky and its sounds like you guys really know what your talking about. So I would welcome any help greatly. The amp I recieved is a nitro 1200 watt ? the box is ported with wierd port? or baffle system? like I said im new to this just trying to learn, I can send pictures in the future if Anyone is interested in helping me get the best out of what I have. So to sum it up Im looking to see what the sub really is its not brand new and if the box I got with it is any good. Also the amp I have... never heard the brand but it sounds ok in my Chevy Avalanche. Well I guess this is a start. Thanks all
Replies (26)
swez on 02/26/2009 18:52:23
Welcome to CK Miller!
The Orion HCCA series subs and amps are Competition Grade products. They make a great sub for small, sealed use or the larger ported box option as you wish. However, they are very power hungry too and a substantial amp is needed to feed this monster.
This sub comes in two flavors. Do your know which one you have now?
a. 4+4 DVC (HCCA 12.4)
b. 2+2 DVC (HCCA 12.2) Both are rated at 2,000 watts RMS
Knowing which version you have, will help us guide you along. Here are the general specs and enclosure recommendations for this series. (Sealed and Ported)
That Nitro amp seems to be a 2 channel, Class A/B amp with Remote Bass control and probably not even close to the power rating this sub can take. They also have a Class D MONO amp too. Which one you have now:
http://www.teptronics.com/bmw5091.html
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=412
What is the fuse rating for this Nitro amp?
Commments/questions:
Swez
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_9800_Orion+HCCA+12.4+-HCCA12.4-.html
miller3200 on 02/27/2009 06:57:22
Hi swez thanks for the reply. To answer your questions (the best I can) the amp I have is the http://www.teptronics.com/bmw484.html not the bmw-5091 that you found, and the sub that I have I think is the 12.2 becasue I believe that one is the 2 omh and that is what mine is. But mine doesnt look like the one in the picture you sent. I dont know if that is because mine is older or not. As for the fuse rating I have no idea the one in there now is a 40. I didnt get the specs I think you posted, you said here they are and there is nothing there. Sorry to be a pain just want to do things right and I dont know.Id like to send you a picture of how my box is made so that you can tell me if it is the right kind of setup, how do I send a pic?
swez on 02/27/2009 08:38:32
Miller,
It seems you may have an older version HCCA 12.2. If it's in good condition, why not use it? The ohmic load options are 1 or 4 ohm, depending on how you wire the coils. (Series = 4 ohms; parallel = 1 ohm)
Most of our guys use photobucket.com to load pictures and link it back to our site.
This Nitro amp mentioned is likely to be about 300-350 watts RMS to a 4 ohm load when bridged to MONO. (Channels A+B combined) There are no real power specs published that I can find either. It would be useful to power a high efficiency sub, but the Orion sub is very low efficiency and very power hungry. (1000 watts RMS or more)
If you really want some pounding bass, this amp would do the job with that sub: (Both coils wired in series, 1 ohm = 1500 watts RMS)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_12211_Hifonics+BXi+1608D.html
Hey, since you are really new to all of this hobby right now, just ask a lot of questions and we'll try to walk you through the details in newbie friendly terms. We were all newbies once upon a time. ;-)
I take it that you bought this gear used from a buddy or someone that offered it at a low price? Either way, they are not a great match. The Orion sub was designed for SPL Competition level bass. This amp cannot produce the power it needs to do that job.
Both are usable in their own right, but together... they don't get the job done well. It's like putting a 125 HP motor in a 4,000 lb truck. (Usable, but not a good match)
Comments?
Swez
miller3200 on 02/27/2009 16:32:58
Hey swez thanks again for the reply. I wish I knew what this rms, wrms, ohm mean please explain. Its seems to me my best start would be to buy a new amp to see the full quaility of this sub. What size, brand do you recommend. I dont/cant spend to much on this or my wife will kill me...ha.I will take a picture and try to send it to you through this photobucket and maybe you can tell me about this box that I have, Im going to cover it with some good carpet if it is the one that I want but dont want to do that if its junk. Also am I going to have any power issues running this sub and the recommended amp do I need a conv. I see alot of people have them...just wondering.
miller3200 on 02/27/2009 16:52:12
I think that I meant capasitor not converter...idk
thanks again
swez on 02/27/2009 17:36:12
Yes, the amp is the weakest link in this package. It draws a lot of power, but since it is a 2 channel, Class A/B amp, you're losing 40% to heat and the sub gets about 60% usable power.
The amp I linked early is popular and will get the job done. A little web browsing could net a better deal for this model. (HiFonics is affordable and generates better efficiencies as it is a Class D design... bass only apps, 80% eff.)
RMS/Wrms is what we look at for power rating to a given load. (Resistance of the sub) The difference in bass output between 1000 and 1500 Wrms is not audible! However, the amount of power draw is notable. Surge Caps will not fill the gap. There are better ways to go and they won't cost much more than a 5 Farad Surge Cap. See Big 3 upgrade for details:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/cgi-bin/car_audio_faq/faq.cgi?g3481
As for signal line connections, if you are using the stock factory radio, you can tap into the rear speakers and use RCA type attenuators to bring the voltage down to levels the amp can use. If you have an aftermarket radio with RCA level outputs, that will work too.
Questions/Comments?
Swez
PS You can do this in stages as budget and time permits. There are several integration tricks we can show you in the process. You don't have to be an electrical engineer to get the job done well. We can fill in the specifics and specs interpretations, but that need not hinder you from a quality install if you follow directions well.
miller3200 on 02/28/2009 06:46:39
Well after a long 12 hours at work last nite I came to a couple of conclusions. I am going to buy a new box for this sub. Again I know nothing about enclosures either what size and type do you think I should get I am going to go out and buy one today. Also I think Im going to shop around online and get that amp that you suggested. I already have run all the wires that I need I got the bigger wiring package, it was a tsunami 1200 watt I believe . Hopefully after buying a new box and amp this thing will pound like I want it to. I just hope I dont have to get into the big three deal I checked it out and it looks like something I dont want to get into. I was thinking about buying a new optima battery I hear they are really good. Im hoping that will stop me from having to do so. Thanks again for your time swez, look forward to hearing your reply...(so i can go spend this gainsharing check from work)..ha
*Miller
miller3200 on 02/28/2009 07:12:38
another quick thought while I was scanning the web i came across a forum where that Ricky guy was saying how much you guys helped him and that he also has a 12.2 hcca sub. But he said he was going with an amp that is 2500 RMS. And the amp you showed me is only 1600. Is the 1600 not going to pound as much as the 2500.I really want to make this sub work to its maximum capacity..without destroying it that is.
miller3200 on 02/28/2009 07:34:43
Well again while looking around I came upon a box that looks like the one I have just to give you an idea. Its called a transmission line slot ported. Here is the link http://caraudiofactory.com/single-transmission-line-slot-ported-p-125.html
I just have no idea what cu/ft mine is. I believe I want a 2 cu/ft box?
swez on 02/28/2009 09:55:22
Busy on the keyboard this AM huh Mr Miller? Well let's address your list.
Transmission Line boxes are actually very efficient and when tuned specifically to the sub specs, it's a strong box with some interesting properties and challenges. Cpl Kittle wrote a good article on various designs and properties to consider:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t22
In your case, look for a ported box that is around 2.0 cf and tuned between 30-38 Hz. A slotted port is better for this sub as it allows the sub to breath well and you won't get port noise that is associated with round ports made from PVC pipe.
Ported box recommendation: ZV112-2030 from Sub Zone (2.0 cf, 30 Hz tuned) http://www.subzoneusa.com/12_zv_series.htm
I suggested the 1600 watt Brutus amp for your situation as it's a good trade off between strong bass output VS power consumption of the amp. Ricky had a stronger amp, added a H.O. ALT, The Big 3 upgrade and a few other things. The sad part, his first day after the install, he fried the sub and the recone kit cost $100. OUCH!!! We don't want to see that happen to you OK?
In all reality, you can drop down to the Brutus BXi 1210D and still achieve very good results with this sub. Power consumption is only 80 amperes and you can use #4 power and grounds. This amp is rated at 1200 Wrms @ 1 ohm loads. The 400 watts extra from the 1610D comes at a steep price. That +1dB more bass is very expensive and only you can determine if it's worth all that. (In my judgement, it's not and the 1210D will give you the best bang for the buck) THINK it over as this modest bump in power is very minimal and cost of add on will be minimal too.
http://www.maxxsonics.net/manuals/hifonics/pdfs/HifonicsBrutus2009AmplifierManual.pdf (See page 10 for specs and details)
So, we're taking a more conservative route here and hoping to save you about $500.00 on electrical upgrades w/o sacrificing more than a few extra dB of bass. Is ~1.5 dB more bass worth $500.00 to you? (Can't hear that difference anyway)
You will need the Big 3 upgrade and a very strong Optima Gel Cell for this project. Depending on how hard you push this system. A H.O. ALT may not be needed with the 1210D. (Am guessing it to be 125A or a tad more) Look it up OK?
Wire kit: This 1610 amp needs a 1/0 gage power and ground cables. It's fused at 70 x 2 = 140 Amperes at full power. Your main fuse at the battery will be a 150A ANL type fuse holder. By a spare ANL fuse too.
This is more like welding cable in diameter and current handling ability. It's about the size of a man's index finger. Yeah, keep that in mind as you buy. The kit you mentioned is not adequate unless you used a pair of #4 power lines and a pair of #4's for grounds. That's the same as #2 gage in power handling.
Getting a bit deep here are we not? This is complex and perhaps a bit daunting to the beginner. But if we break things down into manageable bites, you can handle the task. The Big 3 is not that difficult a job. Just follow the steps outline in the directions and it should go well. In this case, use 1/0 gage wiring here too.
http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/312025/page/1
Are we having fun yet? SMILE
Swez COFFEE
swez on 02/28/2009 10:36:33
Me again... the more I contemplate the amp choice, am leaning more toward the Brutus BXi 1210D amp for this install.
1. It cost less (More bang for the buck)
2. Can use the Tsunami wiring kit you have now
3. Big 3 wiring kit is needed and #4 wiring is good here
4. Power consumption VS SPL output is minimal
5. The Sub Zone 2030 will give you a free +3 dB near the port frequency
6. You'll probably need an Optima Battery, but not a H.O. ALT
Tech Tip: When calculating predicted SPL vs amping power, it's a log scale plot. Each time we double the wattage to the sub, we get a +3dB bump. It's looks like this:
Sub efficiency Reference: 84 dB SPL @ 2.83 volts (or 2 watts); at 4 watts, we get 87 dB, at 8 watts, we get 90 dB, at 16 watts, we get 93 dB and keep going on the progression until you reach 1200 Wrms.
Also, the ported box will give you an additional +3 dB near the porting frequency. Too, there's the "Cabin Gain Factor", (Transfer Function) working in your favor. In larger trucks and SUV's, we get about +10 to 12 dB more low end bass above 55 Hz.
Add all them up and you get live Concert Level bass (+125 dB bass) on wheels. That will rattle some panels and shake your mirrors. Nothing to sneeze at huh?
FYI: You will be heard from a block away and that is considered serious Noise Pollution in many communities. If a cop catches you, you'll get a ticket! Be wise how you use this power tool OK?
Swez
miller3200 on 02/28/2009 11:53:18
wow swez Im a little overloaded right now ...ummm you say the 1210 huh that is smaller than the 1600watt one you first suggested yet it is more expensive when I looked it up? So if I go with that amp I dont need to do the big3 and my wiring kit will work...I like the sound of that. As for the box I will look for what you said ported 2cu/ft 30-38 tuned what ever the tuuned hz part means? Ha this is more difficult then i previously thought. Hope Im not going over my head here. Plus talking over this computer isnt helping much you live in Upstate NY ? Im ready to just come pick you up and have you help me out...haha. Well Im off to go shop for a box ill deal with the amp issue when I get back. Thanks again for your time
miller3200 on 02/28/2009 13:18:39
Well that was not how I wanted this day to go. The guys at my local audio shop say that Im pretty much screwd with this sub I have. 1st they told me I need a 3.5 cu/ft ported box as the specs from orion, they say. Also that I need a biggger amp then what you and I discussed. And if I do that I need 0 power cables and altenator and everything else...idk what to believe or do now.
Victor on 02/28/2009 15:25:25
By the way.. that transmission line enclosure link, does not seem to be a transmission line enclosure.
that seems more like a folded slot port due to space constrains ...
next .
2 cu.ft enclosure tuned 35-38Hz, powered with a 1500-1600wrms amp will be a balanced setup for you.
with a 2500wrms amp sucking on the battery's ... ( o ) ( o ) ...
, you can never do justice to the amp without a H/O alt and a deep cycle battery. Without enough power supply the amp will start clipping and harm your sub-woofer, one very good reason why people blow rock solid subs too...
with the Big 3 done and a good battery, your car's power supply will provide enough juice for the 1500-1600wrms amp to perform aptly.
orelse you would simply be wasting more money on the bigger amp and not making an apt use of it.
going with a 2 cu.ft for this sub , will get better transients ( meaning better cone movement, the ability to play cleaner, tight crisp bass notes )
going with a bigger enclosure would mean some deep lows, and vibes, but would exhibit characteristic muddy bass as the size increases.
i would not suggest a box any bigger than 3cu.ft ....
Guess that says it all...
Welcome to CK.......! COFFEE
Victor...
PS: Decoding Key : ... ( o ) ( o ) ... = Battery terminals.GRIN
miller3200 on 02/28/2009 19:15:25
thanks victor I think I will do just that...2.5cu/ft ported, and I think the 1200 or 1600rms brutus amp from hifonics, maybe this one swez recommended. (Hifonics BXi 1210D). Plus Im going to buy that optima battery hopefully that is all Ill have to do. I want to get away from getting a new alt, and doing the big three. Im already going to spend to much money hopefully the wife doesnt find out. Maybe Ill through a cap in there to help out alittle. Well see what happens. Ill keep you posted thanks for all the help CK.
kirchatndftbl on 02/28/2009 19:19:42
dont waste your money on a capacitor...
http://caraudioknowledge.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/869
instead of spending money on a capcitor use the money towards extra 4ga wire and do the big 3..
swez on 02/28/2009 20:01:24
Hey Miller, I live in MI. It's a long trip to upstate NY from here and I can see why you feel overwhelmed by all the details and conflicting information. That's pretty common and all who have commented have a perspective that is basically the same, but there are a few twists in each story. If you need to be talked down from the clouds/fog bank, we can swap e-mails and phone numbers to set up a strategy and give you the confidence needed to move forward again.
swezdp@yahoo.com
Thanks for your comments Victor and I agree with your suggestions on most points. We are hoping to avoid a H.O. ALT in this case and hense, a smaller and more efficient amplifier. Here's a summary:
The BXi 1210D is fused at 80 A's and rated at 1200 Wrms @ 1 ohm.
The BXi 1610D is fused at 140 A's and rated at 1600 Wrms @ 1 ohm.
1 Orion HCCA 12.2 sub (An older model and used in a folded slot port box of unknown dimensions/specs)
Chevy truck: Unknown ALT package to date (105A or 145A are stock)
We agree on the ported box of 2.0 cf for this sub. The term "Hz" refers to frequency or cycles per second. The lower the number, the lower the frequency.
Bass is 20-100 Hz.
Midbass is 100-300 Hz.
Midrange is 300-2,500 Hz.
Tweeters work at 2,500/5,000 and up Hz. (Depends on the tweeter design and power handling)
This Chevy Avalanche you mentioned, what year is it and which body class is it? (1500 or 2500 series and what size engine? X.x Liter engine) Does it come with the 2500 series w/ trailer hauling package? If yes, you probably have a 145A ALT. If the basic 1500 series, looks like the older CS-130 Delco, 105A ALT.
I looked up a few and see the standard model is a 105A version. (This won't cut it at all)
The upgrade is a 145A model. (This is better, but still iffy)
From there, we're looking at H.O. aftermarket Alts to feed larger amplifier installs. (200A + is about right) Figure roughly $200.00 for a H.O. version in this range.
Comments/Questions?
Swez
PS Don't give up just yet. There are many ways to skin this cat, but the devil is in the details. If you sold your Orion sub, box and Nitro amp, how much $$ would that bring and start afresh?
kirchatndftbl on 03/1/2009 01:29:18
miller from my point of view dont feel frustrated at all!! when i found this site i didnt have much knowledge of car audio but after observing evrything for a while now alot of the things in car audio seem alot clearer and i know alot more about it.(i had no clue what ohms or rms was or anything really)
all of the golds on here will never lead you in the wrong direction and are always here to explain everything and provide as much help as possible!!
swez on 03/1/2009 09:32:33
We try to help our readers as much as possible. However, the pool of available Golds has been shrinking of late.
Am not sure why, but with all the challenges we all face on the economic side, those with families, demanding job schedules and less time/$$ for hobbies, that might explain some of it.
Comments?
Swez
miller3200 on 09/16/2009 16:23:48
Hello everyone, I just wanted to thank everyone for the input and help which ultimately made me decide to get the the hifonics 1200 rms amp. I hooked it up to my Orion hcca 1200 watt and it is very loud definitely shakes my whole truck and all my organs. I recently went to my local audio store when they were having a comp. And I pulled 134 db. Not to bad for what I have. But after all this my old hcca Orion is showing it's age. I'm getting a pretty bad rattle and I'm sure it's gonna kick the bucket. Friends have told me it's the voice coil. Is there anything I can do to fix this? If not are there anyother subs out there that will match my Orion in it's prime that is under $300. I'm looking at a brand new orion10" hcca. But I'm not sure if my amp can handle it. And comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again.
Victor on 09/17/2009 01:30:16
Check 3 things..
1 - Gain settings on the amp...
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t57
set your amp gains with a 50Hz test tone and set it for 34.5 Volts.
2 - Subsonic filter .... SSF .... set it around 30Hz.
3 - Set the bass boost on the amp at minimum..
the cracking noise of the VC will go low and it will safe guard your sub for a longer period, also give you cleaner bass.
Victor...
miller3200 on 09/17/2009 10:33:34
Ok I'll try that victor, thanks. Do you know anything about that 10" Orion I mentioned. Will my amp ok with that?
Victor on 09/17/2009 13:45:13
ya... its a good match considering the power draw and enclosure...
also tighten all the screws that secures your sub to the enclosure.. sometimes due to an air leak uncontrolled cone movement is possible which is harmful to your sub...
miller3200 on 09/17/2009 14:10:07
Thanks again victor I'll try all your suggestions before I go out and buy that 10" hcca.
swez on 09/19/2009 21:55:39
Not sure if the older HCCA subs offer the DIY repair kit. The newer sub do. A recone kit costs about $100.00 on the newer models and worth expense to DB Drag SPL Comps guys.
This older HCCA sub may have reached its limits and may not be worth repairing. Try Vic's suggestions and if the noise persists, you might be able to repair it once you determine the failure mode.
1. Leadin wire slap
2. Separated spider to coil assy.
3. Damage to spider
4. Dust cap is loose
Swez
miller3200 on 09/21/2009 09:17:31
Hello again swez.... I will def. Check all those suggestions hopefully I can fix it somehow. I'll get back to you when I have a day off to look at it. Thanks again.
Replies (26)
swez on 02/26/2009 18:52:23
Welcome to CK Miller!
The Orion HCCA series subs and amps are Competition Grade products. They make a great sub for small, sealed use or the larger ported box option as you wish. However, they are very power hungry too and a substantial amp is needed to feed this monster.
This sub comes in two flavors. Do your know which one you have now?
a. 4+4 DVC (HCCA 12.4)
b. 2+2 DVC (HCCA 12.2) Both are rated at 2,000 watts RMS
Knowing which version you have, will help us guide you along. Here are the general specs and enclosure recommendations for this series. (Sealed and Ported)
That Nitro amp seems to be a 2 channel, Class A/B amp with Remote Bass control and probably not even close to the power rating this sub can take. They also have a Class D MONO amp too. Which one you have now:
http://www.teptronics.com/bmw5091.html
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=412
What is the fuse rating for this Nitro amp?
Commments/questions:
Swez
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_9800_Orion+HCCA+12.4+-HCCA12.4-.html
miller3200 on 02/27/2009 06:57:22
Hi swez thanks for the reply. To answer your questions (the best I can) the amp I have is the http://www.teptronics.com/bmw484.html not the bmw-5091 that you found, and the sub that I have I think is the 12.2 becasue I believe that one is the 2 omh and that is what mine is. But mine doesnt look like the one in the picture you sent. I dont know if that is because mine is older or not. As for the fuse rating I have no idea the one in there now is a 40. I didnt get the specs I think you posted, you said here they are and there is nothing there. Sorry to be a pain just want to do things right and I dont know.Id like to send you a picture of how my box is made so that you can tell me if it is the right kind of setup, how do I send a pic?
swez on 02/27/2009 08:38:32
Miller,
It seems you may have an older version HCCA 12.2. If it's in good condition, why not use it? The ohmic load options are 1 or 4 ohm, depending on how you wire the coils. (Series = 4 ohms; parallel = 1 ohm)
Most of our guys use photobucket.com to load pictures and link it back to our site.
This Nitro amp mentioned is likely to be about 300-350 watts RMS to a 4 ohm load when bridged to MONO. (Channels A+B combined) There are no real power specs published that I can find either. It would be useful to power a high efficiency sub, but the Orion sub is very low efficiency and very power hungry. (1000 watts RMS or more)
If you really want some pounding bass, this amp would do the job with that sub: (Both coils wired in series, 1 ohm = 1500 watts RMS)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_12211_Hifonics+BXi+1608D.html
Hey, since you are really new to all of this hobby right now, just ask a lot of questions and we'll try to walk you through the details in newbie friendly terms. We were all newbies once upon a time. ;-)
I take it that you bought this gear used from a buddy or someone that offered it at a low price? Either way, they are not a great match. The Orion sub was designed for SPL Competition level bass. This amp cannot produce the power it needs to do that job.
Both are usable in their own right, but together... they don't get the job done well. It's like putting a 125 HP motor in a 4,000 lb truck. (Usable, but not a good match)
Comments?
Swez
miller3200 on 02/27/2009 16:32:58
Hey swez thanks again for the reply. I wish I knew what this rms, wrms, ohm mean please explain. Its seems to me my best start would be to buy a new amp to see the full quaility of this sub. What size, brand do you recommend. I dont/cant spend to much on this or my wife will kill me...ha.I will take a picture and try to send it to you through this photobucket and maybe you can tell me about this box that I have, Im going to cover it with some good carpet if it is the one that I want but dont want to do that if its junk. Also am I going to have any power issues running this sub and the recommended amp do I need a conv. I see alot of people have them...just wondering.
miller3200 on 02/27/2009 16:52:12
I think that I meant capasitor not converter...idk
thanks again
swez on 02/27/2009 17:36:12
Yes, the amp is the weakest link in this package. It draws a lot of power, but since it is a 2 channel, Class A/B amp, you're losing 40% to heat and the sub gets about 60% usable power.
The amp I linked early is popular and will get the job done. A little web browsing could net a better deal for this model. (HiFonics is affordable and generates better efficiencies as it is a Class D design... bass only apps, 80% eff.)
RMS/Wrms is what we look at for power rating to a given load. (Resistance of the sub) The difference in bass output between 1000 and 1500 Wrms is not audible! However, the amount of power draw is notable. Surge Caps will not fill the gap. There are better ways to go and they won't cost much more than a 5 Farad Surge Cap. See Big 3 upgrade for details:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/cgi-bin/car_audio_faq/faq.cgi?g3481
As for signal line connections, if you are using the stock factory radio, you can tap into the rear speakers and use RCA type attenuators to bring the voltage down to levels the amp can use. If you have an aftermarket radio with RCA level outputs, that will work too.
Questions/Comments?
Swez
PS You can do this in stages as budget and time permits. There are several integration tricks we can show you in the process. You don't have to be an electrical engineer to get the job done well. We can fill in the specifics and specs interpretations, but that need not hinder you from a quality install if you follow directions well.
miller3200 on 02/28/2009 06:46:39
Well after a long 12 hours at work last nite I came to a couple of conclusions. I am going to buy a new box for this sub. Again I know nothing about enclosures either what size and type do you think I should get I am going to go out and buy one today. Also I think Im going to shop around online and get that amp that you suggested. I already have run all the wires that I need I got the bigger wiring package, it was a tsunami 1200 watt I believe . Hopefully after buying a new box and amp this thing will pound like I want it to. I just hope I dont have to get into the big three deal I checked it out and it looks like something I dont want to get into. I was thinking about buying a new optima battery I hear they are really good. Im hoping that will stop me from having to do so. Thanks again for your time swez, look forward to hearing your reply...(so i can go spend this gainsharing check from work)..ha
*Miller
miller3200 on 02/28/2009 07:12:38
another quick thought while I was scanning the web i came across a forum where that Ricky guy was saying how much you guys helped him and that he also has a 12.2 hcca sub. But he said he was going with an amp that is 2500 RMS. And the amp you showed me is only 1600. Is the 1600 not going to pound as much as the 2500.I really want to make this sub work to its maximum capacity..without destroying it that is.
miller3200 on 02/28/2009 07:34:43
Well again while looking around I came upon a box that looks like the one I have just to give you an idea. Its called a transmission line slot ported. Here is the link http://caraudiofactory.com/single-transmission-line-slot-ported-p-125.html
I just have no idea what cu/ft mine is. I believe I want a 2 cu/ft box?
swez on 02/28/2009 09:55:22
Busy on the keyboard this AM huh Mr Miller? Well let's address your list.
Transmission Line boxes are actually very efficient and when tuned specifically to the sub specs, it's a strong box with some interesting properties and challenges. Cpl Kittle wrote a good article on various designs and properties to consider:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t22
In your case, look for a ported box that is around 2.0 cf and tuned between 30-38 Hz. A slotted port is better for this sub as it allows the sub to breath well and you won't get port noise that is associated with round ports made from PVC pipe.
Ported box recommendation: ZV112-2030 from Sub Zone (2.0 cf, 30 Hz tuned) http://www.subzoneusa.com/12_zv_series.htm
I suggested the 1600 watt Brutus amp for your situation as it's a good trade off between strong bass output VS power consumption of the amp. Ricky had a stronger amp, added a H.O. ALT, The Big 3 upgrade and a few other things. The sad part, his first day after the install, he fried the sub and the recone kit cost $100. OUCH!!! We don't want to see that happen to you OK?
In all reality, you can drop down to the Brutus BXi 1210D and still achieve very good results with this sub. Power consumption is only 80 amperes and you can use #4 power and grounds. This amp is rated at 1200 Wrms @ 1 ohm loads. The 400 watts extra from the 1610D comes at a steep price. That +1dB more bass is very expensive and only you can determine if it's worth all that. (In my judgement, it's not and the 1210D will give you the best bang for the buck) THINK it over as this modest bump in power is very minimal and cost of add on will be minimal too.
http://www.maxxsonics.net/manuals/hifonics/pdfs/HifonicsBrutus2009AmplifierManual.pdf (See page 10 for specs and details)
So, we're taking a more conservative route here and hoping to save you about $500.00 on electrical upgrades w/o sacrificing more than a few extra dB of bass. Is ~1.5 dB more bass worth $500.00 to you? (Can't hear that difference anyway)
You will need the Big 3 upgrade and a very strong Optima Gel Cell for this project. Depending on how hard you push this system. A H.O. ALT may not be needed with the 1210D. (Am guessing it to be 125A or a tad more) Look it up OK?
Wire kit: This 1610 amp needs a 1/0 gage power and ground cables. It's fused at 70 x 2 = 140 Amperes at full power. Your main fuse at the battery will be a 150A ANL type fuse holder. By a spare ANL fuse too.
This is more like welding cable in diameter and current handling ability. It's about the size of a man's index finger. Yeah, keep that in mind as you buy. The kit you mentioned is not adequate unless you used a pair of #4 power lines and a pair of #4's for grounds. That's the same as #2 gage in power handling.
Getting a bit deep here are we not? This is complex and perhaps a bit daunting to the beginner. But if we break things down into manageable bites, you can handle the task. The Big 3 is not that difficult a job. Just follow the steps outline in the directions and it should go well. In this case, use 1/0 gage wiring here too.
http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/312025/page/1
Are we having fun yet? SMILE
Swez COFFEE
swez on 02/28/2009 10:36:33
Me again... the more I contemplate the amp choice, am leaning more toward the Brutus BXi 1210D amp for this install.
1. It cost less (More bang for the buck)
2. Can use the Tsunami wiring kit you have now
3. Big 3 wiring kit is needed and #4 wiring is good here
4. Power consumption VS SPL output is minimal
5. The Sub Zone 2030 will give you a free +3 dB near the port frequency
6. You'll probably need an Optima Battery, but not a H.O. ALT
Tech Tip: When calculating predicted SPL vs amping power, it's a log scale plot. Each time we double the wattage to the sub, we get a +3dB bump. It's looks like this:
Sub efficiency Reference: 84 dB SPL @ 2.83 volts (or 2 watts); at 4 watts, we get 87 dB, at 8 watts, we get 90 dB, at 16 watts, we get 93 dB and keep going on the progression until you reach 1200 Wrms.
Also, the ported box will give you an additional +3 dB near the porting frequency. Too, there's the "Cabin Gain Factor", (Transfer Function) working in your favor. In larger trucks and SUV's, we get about +10 to 12 dB more low end bass above 55 Hz.
Add all them up and you get live Concert Level bass (+125 dB bass) on wheels. That will rattle some panels and shake your mirrors. Nothing to sneeze at huh?
FYI: You will be heard from a block away and that is considered serious Noise Pollution in many communities. If a cop catches you, you'll get a ticket! Be wise how you use this power tool OK?
Swez
miller3200 on 02/28/2009 11:53:18
wow swez Im a little overloaded right now ...ummm you say the 1210 huh that is smaller than the 1600watt one you first suggested yet it is more expensive when I looked it up? So if I go with that amp I dont need to do the big3 and my wiring kit will work...I like the sound of that. As for the box I will look for what you said ported 2cu/ft 30-38 tuned what ever the tuuned hz part means? Ha this is more difficult then i previously thought. Hope Im not going over my head here. Plus talking over this computer isnt helping much you live in Upstate NY ? Im ready to just come pick you up and have you help me out...haha. Well Im off to go shop for a box ill deal with the amp issue when I get back. Thanks again for your time
miller3200 on 02/28/2009 13:18:39
Well that was not how I wanted this day to go. The guys at my local audio shop say that Im pretty much screwd with this sub I have. 1st they told me I need a 3.5 cu/ft ported box as the specs from orion, they say. Also that I need a biggger amp then what you and I discussed. And if I do that I need 0 power cables and altenator and everything else...idk what to believe or do now.
Victor on 02/28/2009 15:25:25
By the way.. that transmission line enclosure link, does not seem to be a transmission line enclosure.
that seems more like a folded slot port due to space constrains ...
next .
2 cu.ft enclosure tuned 35-38Hz, powered with a 1500-1600wrms amp will be a balanced setup for you.
with a 2500wrms amp sucking on the battery's ... ( o ) ( o ) ...
, you can never do justice to the amp without a H/O alt and a deep cycle battery. Without enough power supply the amp will start clipping and harm your sub-woofer, one very good reason why people blow rock solid subs too...
with the Big 3 done and a good battery, your car's power supply will provide enough juice for the 1500-1600wrms amp to perform aptly.
orelse you would simply be wasting more money on the bigger amp and not making an apt use of it.
going with a 2 cu.ft for this sub , will get better transients ( meaning better cone movement, the ability to play cleaner, tight crisp bass notes )
going with a bigger enclosure would mean some deep lows, and vibes, but would exhibit characteristic muddy bass as the size increases.
i would not suggest a box any bigger than 3cu.ft ....
Guess that says it all...
Welcome to CK.......! COFFEE
Victor...
PS: Decoding Key : ... ( o ) ( o ) ... = Battery terminals.GRIN
miller3200 on 02/28/2009 19:15:25
thanks victor I think I will do just that...2.5cu/ft ported, and I think the 1200 or 1600rms brutus amp from hifonics, maybe this one swez recommended. (Hifonics BXi 1210D). Plus Im going to buy that optima battery hopefully that is all Ill have to do. I want to get away from getting a new alt, and doing the big three. Im already going to spend to much money hopefully the wife doesnt find out. Maybe Ill through a cap in there to help out alittle. Well see what happens. Ill keep you posted thanks for all the help CK.
kirchatndftbl on 02/28/2009 19:19:42
dont waste your money on a capacitor...
http://caraudioknowledge.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/869
instead of spending money on a capcitor use the money towards extra 4ga wire and do the big 3..
swez on 02/28/2009 20:01:24
Hey Miller, I live in MI. It's a long trip to upstate NY from here and I can see why you feel overwhelmed by all the details and conflicting information. That's pretty common and all who have commented have a perspective that is basically the same, but there are a few twists in each story. If you need to be talked down from the clouds/fog bank, we can swap e-mails and phone numbers to set up a strategy and give you the confidence needed to move forward again.
swezdp@yahoo.com
Thanks for your comments Victor and I agree with your suggestions on most points. We are hoping to avoid a H.O. ALT in this case and hense, a smaller and more efficient amplifier. Here's a summary:
The BXi 1210D is fused at 80 A's and rated at 1200 Wrms @ 1 ohm.
The BXi 1610D is fused at 140 A's and rated at 1600 Wrms @ 1 ohm.
1 Orion HCCA 12.2 sub (An older model and used in a folded slot port box of unknown dimensions/specs)
Chevy truck: Unknown ALT package to date (105A or 145A are stock)
We agree on the ported box of 2.0 cf for this sub. The term "Hz" refers to frequency or cycles per second. The lower the number, the lower the frequency.
Bass is 20-100 Hz.
Midbass is 100-300 Hz.
Midrange is 300-2,500 Hz.
Tweeters work at 2,500/5,000 and up Hz. (Depends on the tweeter design and power handling)
This Chevy Avalanche you mentioned, what year is it and which body class is it? (1500 or 2500 series and what size engine? X.x Liter engine) Does it come with the 2500 series w/ trailer hauling package? If yes, you probably have a 145A ALT. If the basic 1500 series, looks like the older CS-130 Delco, 105A ALT.
I looked up a few and see the standard model is a 105A version. (This won't cut it at all)
The upgrade is a 145A model. (This is better, but still iffy)
From there, we're looking at H.O. aftermarket Alts to feed larger amplifier installs. (200A + is about right) Figure roughly $200.00 for a H.O. version in this range.
Comments/Questions?
Swez
PS Don't give up just yet. There are many ways to skin this cat, but the devil is in the details. If you sold your Orion sub, box and Nitro amp, how much $$ would that bring and start afresh?
kirchatndftbl on 03/1/2009 01:29:18
miller from my point of view dont feel frustrated at all!! when i found this site i didnt have much knowledge of car audio but after observing evrything for a while now alot of the things in car audio seem alot clearer and i know alot more about it.(i had no clue what ohms or rms was or anything really)
all of the golds on here will never lead you in the wrong direction and are always here to explain everything and provide as much help as possible!!
swez on 03/1/2009 09:32:33
We try to help our readers as much as possible. However, the pool of available Golds has been shrinking of late.
Am not sure why, but with all the challenges we all face on the economic side, those with families, demanding job schedules and less time/$$ for hobbies, that might explain some of it.
Comments?
Swez
miller3200 on 09/16/2009 16:23:48
Hello everyone, I just wanted to thank everyone for the input and help which ultimately made me decide to get the the hifonics 1200 rms amp. I hooked it up to my Orion hcca 1200 watt and it is very loud definitely shakes my whole truck and all my organs. I recently went to my local audio store when they were having a comp. And I pulled 134 db. Not to bad for what I have. But after all this my old hcca Orion is showing it's age. I'm getting a pretty bad rattle and I'm sure it's gonna kick the bucket. Friends have told me it's the voice coil. Is there anything I can do to fix this? If not are there anyother subs out there that will match my Orion in it's prime that is under $300. I'm looking at a brand new orion10" hcca. But I'm not sure if my amp can handle it. And comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again.
Victor on 09/17/2009 01:30:16
Check 3 things..
1 - Gain settings on the amp...
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t57
set your amp gains with a 50Hz test tone and set it for 34.5 Volts.
2 - Subsonic filter .... SSF .... set it around 30Hz.
3 - Set the bass boost on the amp at minimum..
the cracking noise of the VC will go low and it will safe guard your sub for a longer period, also give you cleaner bass.
Victor...
miller3200 on 09/17/2009 10:33:34
Ok I'll try that victor, thanks. Do you know anything about that 10" Orion I mentioned. Will my amp ok with that?
Victor on 09/17/2009 13:45:13
ya... its a good match considering the power draw and enclosure...
also tighten all the screws that secures your sub to the enclosure.. sometimes due to an air leak uncontrolled cone movement is possible which is harmful to your sub...
miller3200 on 09/17/2009 14:10:07
Thanks again victor I'll try all your suggestions before I go out and buy that 10" hcca.
swez on 09/19/2009 21:55:39
Not sure if the older HCCA subs offer the DIY repair kit. The newer sub do. A recone kit costs about $100.00 on the newer models and worth expense to DB Drag SPL Comps guys.
This older HCCA sub may have reached its limits and may not be worth repairing. Try Vic's suggestions and if the noise persists, you might be able to repair it once you determine the failure mode.
1. Leadin wire slap
2. Separated spider to coil assy.
3. Damage to spider
4. Dust cap is loose
Swez
miller3200 on 09/21/2009 09:17:31
Hello again swez.... I will def. Check all those suggestions hopefully I can fix it somehow. I'll get back to you when I have a day off to look at it. Thanks again.
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