Hi everyone,
i'm looking for some advise from the wise ones,
i've not got the time to read loads about ICE, I just want to know what i can do with these speakers and amps i have recently aquired.
I have some unknown HU MP3 player with the four normal speaker out puts and the one RCA out put.
Then i have two 1000W GT4 subwoofers 10" in a box.
A Fusion encounter fe-402 amp: http://plymouth.gumtree.com/plymouth/81/33791481.html
Then i got two 3-way coaxial Pioneer TS-E2090 speakers
and finally a kicker amp: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-JkdjYUyMxfQ/p_206ZX3504/Kicker-ZX350-4.html
I have absolutely no clue about ICe systems, but from what i can gather i think these amps will under power the speakers.
What is the best way to wire these up and how do you run two amps with only one RCA out put from the HU?
I dont want to spend any more cash just want to know what is the best set up for what i have got.
I look forward to hearing your advice.
regards Kelt
Replies (22)
swez on 02/23/2009 21:58:21
Welcome to CK Kelt!
This is a very mixed bag of gear you mentioned. The best parts of the lot are the Kicker 4 channel amp, the JBL subs and that Fusion amp may come in handy for trading up later to a better sub amp.
These Pioneer's are an older model and appear to be 20cm, (8") 3-ways. They'd probably makes some decent book shelf monitors for home use. In a vehicle, a bit large and hard to mount well.
What type of vehicle are you working on here? (Make, body style & Model)
The no-name HU may be useful if in good working order. That one RCA jack, does it say Sub Out on it? (I hope so) Is it one MONO jack or a pair of RCA's?
Are there other speakers in the doors, dash or parcel shelf to work with? If yes, let's get some details on that too.
Finally, there's a lot to consider here as you plan. The more details you can provide, the better our chances of pulling a few bunnies out of the hat. Sometimes, "Less is More". This definitely applies to the gear listed. So far, there are several good pieces of gear in the mix. The rest are marginal at best.
Comments?
Swez
PS The rest is more like patchwork or not very usable to iffy at best. I gotta be honest with our readers here... this system will need some cash infusion to get the best possible sound from what is noted and what seems to be lacking... COFFEE or tea is you prefer
kelt on 02/24/2009 14:15:49
Hi thanks,
I have a Mercedes Vito van 108D.
It has two standard pretty tinny crap sounding speakers at the front of the dash board either side and thats it.
Space is not an issue when it comes to fitting the speakers and amps really,
the van has a metal bulkhead between the cab and rear cargo area and i am going to bolt the GT4 subwoofer box to it so the speakers are facing out towards the back of the van.
Then i was going to cut a couple more holes in the bulkhead and fit the pioneers facing forward into the cab, and yes they are very deep speakers, about 4 maybe 5 inches deep and 8" wide like you say.
The HU does have a pair of RCA's coming out of it like i see on most average HU's, i dont know about it saying sub out though, i will have to have a look tommorrow.
I dont want to spend a lot on this, the van is a shed i have bought while i'm repairing my car, so it was a case of buy the van and then i just happened to get a good deal on the lot i've mentioned above and all i wanna know is how to fit what i've mentioned above to get the best possible sound from what i have.
I have mounted the fusion amp to the side of my drivers seat at the moment it gets good airflow from there and it had the higher out put than the other amp.
So what do you recommend?
from what you have said it sounds like i need to ditch the pioneers, get a decent amp to power the subs and buy some decent mid range and tweeters to run off the kicker amp and sell the fusion.
imo being the tight ass that i am and not having much of a clue,
i had the thought of running the subs off the fusion amp and running the pioneers off the kicker and wanted to know if it is possible to do this or not worth it.
I know it wont be right but thought it may be reasonable, but thats why i'm here asking the people that do know.
I look forward to your advice, and sorry for not giving enough details, i thought i did but then i realised i had not after reading your post.
Thanks kelt
zanilth on 02/24/2009 16:59:45
As far as how to wire both amps, not sure if this is the best way but wal mart sells Y cables, so you can run one RCA cable to between the two amps, hook up the Y cables, and split the signal to the two amps from there.
Running the fusion amp with your 2 10" wired in parallel will put the load at 2 ohm, which (since your amp is 2 ohm stable and taking into account what I've read if I read correctly) will put you pushing around 350-400 watts RMS.
If you are interested in powering the pioneers off of an amp to be your primary speakers, I would recommend tossing the door speakers right now. Factory speakers wouldn't handle the power, and would probably cut down on the sound quality as is. Maybe get you a set of inexpensive components for the doors, set them up on the rear channels of the kicker amp, and the pioneers on the front channel (or vice versa, whichever suits your fancy.)
This setup would work, especially if you have the space to mount. If you are concerned about finances and keeping things cheap, just run something similar to this for now, and upgrade as you wish/deem necessary. This will also help get you familiar with car audio install work (if you are doing it yourself) which will help if/when you decide to upgrade, and do more and better things.
kelt on 02/24/2009 18:10:58
Thanks for the reply.
I was under the impression that you couldn't use y cables unless you had two of the same rated amps and configured the rca cables to run the left hand speakers with one amp and the right speakers with the other one.
If you split the left and right signal to my two different amps for running subs on one and the 3 ways with the other, it isn't going to work correctly is it? or am i missing the point somewhere?
With some thought i have come to this conclusion to get me some instant sounds in my van with what i've got with out spending any cash yet! lol, opinions on this welcome,
My pioneers are 90W Nom each, 250W max.
They are also 3 way which means i get bass, mid and tweeters all in one. If i connect the pioneers to the kicker amp wired in parallel and bridge them across the channels to get the max power of 175 RMS, that is then nearly the 180W nominal RMS the pioneers can handle.
Then i should have some decent quality sound even if its not that loud.
That will be ok until can save up enough cash to buy the correct size amp to run my subs correctly.
..and if i'm well into my audio stuff by then i will ditch the pioneers and replace them with some seperate quality mids and tweeters to run correctly off of the kickers channels.
Please remember i am a novice and not sure if what i'm thinking is correct please advise me if i'm wrong on anything.
Thanks
swez on 02/24/2009 18:32:08
Hehe, think I've seen these vans around and mostly a work van with a safety divider between the cargo are and front seats.
The front speakers are a good place to start. Can you have a look at the front door panels, there may be a place to install some decent front speakers in that location. Take a closer look and see what space is available for flush mounted speakers. If you can see a way to install a set of 6.5" Coaxials in the front doors, that would be a good step.
The dash mounts are probably small format squawkers? If yes, just disconnect then later.
As for these Pioneers, I can see using them in the back as rear fill. These are 3-way coaxials and even though they state 8" basket, the actual cone area of the woofer is more like 6.5" - 7.0". Picture each in a small cube of say ~0.5 cu ft on either side of your sub box and powered off the Fusion amp.
Note: Check the High Pass Filter range on this first. The specs I have found seem to contradict the range of the HPF? (50-20,000 Hz is what I hope for) If that is true, the Pioneers can be powered off this amp.
As for the subs, you can power them off the rear channels of the Kicker amp mentioned. Ponder this configuration a bit and see if you can visualise as mentioned.
Swez
kelt on 02/24/2009 18:52:03
Yeah that sounds good Swez,
So if that is possible how do i go about connecting both amps to my HU correctly?
Many thanks
swez on 02/24/2009 20:19:45
If your HU is "bare bones", but has 1 pair of full range RCA's in it, consider using a Line Driver/EQ add on that gives 3 pairs of RCA's for all amp channels in a very small package.
Have done a few with others here at CK and a client, with well above average results. If you have a pocket in the dash where a 1/2 Din processor will fit, the rest is fish & chips.
These processors need one pair of RCA outs from the HU, add several bands of EQ and kick up the Line Level signal for amps down the audio chain. Many have a Master Volume, dedicated Sub outputs and F/R stereo and BAL outs as well. The EQ features range from 5-7 bands of EQ too. (Much cheaper than a new HU too) Have a look at this one:
http://www.hookedontronics.com/show_product_details.jsp?cid=20367&c=0902Froogle&b=Clarion_EQS746
If this is available to you, or the 5 band EQ, worth looking for.
Swez
PS This unit has a 2nd AUX input for MP3 and I-Pod players. How's that a lot of bang for the buck? (Errr... Sterling pound)
kelt on 02/25/2009 17:45:59
Thats cool exactly what i need! Thanks swez
I can mount and wire everything up with no problems but i haven't any idea about all the amp settings.
Can you give me an idea of what to set all the controls to on the fusion amp with the pioneers connected?
swez on 02/25/2009 23:07:25
Yes, the Clarion EQ/Line Driver is a real step up w/o spending a lot of money.
As for amp settings, this can be done by ear and the amp settings can be adjusted following a few basic steps.
The Fusion amp gain can be set at midpoint initially as would be true for the Kicker amp.
The HPF for your Fusion amp would be set between 60-100 Hz., for these pioneer speakers in sealed boxes. (80 Hz., is typical starting point when we have subs in the mix)
The front channels of your Kicker amp are for the front stage speakers we have discussed. The HPF setting will be determined by the speakers used up front. I'll give more details when you get to that point.
The rear channels will be used to power your JBL woofer(s) Here, we used the LPF network and set to 60-80 Hz. (A little tweaking may be needed to dial everything in just so)
As for signal level RCA's, you'll need 3 pairs long enough to fish from the EQ/LD to amp locations. (F/R & Sub outs) A short RCA pair from the HU outs to the EQ inputs will also be needed. (1 meter should be plenty)
Also, run your power line cable on one side of this van and your RCA and front speaker lines on the other side to prevent noise problems later.
If you can get a copy of the install/users manual for the Clarion EQ/Line Driver, it should show you the proper wiring options. If not, do you have Power Point Reader? I can make up a drawing that gives details on how to wire things up.
Comments?
Swez
kelt on 02/26/2009 16:30:15
Thanks for your help.
I'm going to wire it like this i think, see if you can read my wiring diagram.
[IMG]http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r276/wedibenni/wiring.jpg[/IMG]
Thats if photo bucket works on here??
The battery is under the passenger seat and i am going to fit my amps on the drivers seat, each side.
Then run the power cables and remote along the front of the seats and the RCAS and speakers down the back of the seats.
The hu sits in the middle and i will put the EQ driver in front of the passenger with all the RCA cables coming out of that and going down behind the seats.
What do you think?
swez on 02/26/2009 18:26:31
Saw your drawing and you have the right idea. The only thing missing is front stage speakers, wired to the front channels of your Kicker 4-channel amp.
Also, when you build your Pioneer boxes, try speakers firing up and see how that sounds. The subs firing to the rear are usually a good option to try first.
I think you may need to use a relay system for the power remote circuits for both amps and the EQ. This is a simple step and low cost too. Why? Most HU's REM circuits can usually handle 2 devices. When using 3 or more REM feeds, we use a relay so as not to damage that circuit with too much loading.
Read up on this link and see if it makes sense to you. At first glance, it seems hard to grasp. But after a little study and thinking things through, it will make sense and we'll help you along.
http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp
The coil is energized when the HU is turned on and a REM signal activates the coil. There is a constant +12 volts on one leg of the relay and a ground too. The output to your other devices comes on when the coil is closed. When the HU is turned off, the coil de-energizes and closes the circuit.
Comments/Questions?
Swez
kelt on 02/28/2009 17:16:15
Hi,
Yes i will get front stage speakers when i have some spare cash.
I am familar with relays and cannot understand why you would need them on the remote wire, there is little current draw on that cable and the amps will have their own positive cables from the battery which will carry the current needed to drive the amps.
Are you saying to use a relay to control the main positive cables to the amps from the battery?
As in The red power cable from the battery going to ter. 30 on the relay and then out through 87 to the amp and using the REM wire on the switched circuit, ter. 86 - 85 to activate it?
I would of thought the circuitry in the amp would contain a relay any way and that is what the REM wire is activating?
Another question please if you dont mind, I just bought a cable kit that said it would power 1000W, but i have my doubts about it, the speaker cables are 18AWG.
The speakers cable that came with my subs is 10AWG, which i think is suitable for 1000w,
Will this 18AWG cable be ok to run these 300W pioneers?
swez on 02/28/2009 18:20:15
Oh cool, you understand relays and know how to use them... Whew
Quote:"Are you saying to use a relay to control the main positive cables to the amps from the battery?" Nope, am referring to your HU REM turn on circuit and yes many amplifers use small relays for triggering the main power supplies.
The REMote on the HU is rated between 250-300 mA's of current. If we have more than 2 amplifiers, (Add EQ/LD) you'll likely be over the limit and burn out that circuit as it is not fused. That would lead to a work around step with a switch on the dash to supply REM for all 3 devices. That's just more wiring to run is all.
Another option that will work, run both amps off the HU REM w/o a relay and connect the EQ to the ACC/IGN. It turn on/off manually or just dial the Master volume control way down before turning on your system to avoid thumps from the amplifiers.
As for cabling needs, #4 would be your primary power line min. This gage is rated for 100 amperes of current in short runs to 12 feet or 3 meters long. Then, we use what's called a Distribution Block to split your #4 wire into a pair of #8 gage lines, one for each amp. The ground lines will be #8 per amp as well. The #8 gage is rated for 50 amperes of current flow.
The #18 speaker wire is the minimum gage wire for your Pioneer speakers. We typically recommend #16 for normal amped speakers and #12 gage for subs. Can you return this wire kit for the gage lines you need?
Got all that mate?
Swez
kelt on 03/1/2009 19:11:35
Yes thanks,
Cool, so if i am only using the two amps then i should be ok to not have a relay on the remote wire as long as i wire the eq seperately, i was planning on just connecting it into the HU's ignition feed to power the eq anyway. I shall stick the ammeter on the REM wire and measure what it draws when turning on to make sure then.
About the cabling, lol i thought it was a joke saying it could handle a 1000 w when it only came with 18 gauge speaker wires.
I wont bother sending it back, but i will leave feedback saying it may cope with 300W but not a 1000w (Prehaps i should see if they will send me thicker gauge first too).
If you observed my diagram i was going to just run #8 power cable to the fusion amp and then just tee off it with a short piece to the kicker.
But from you are saying i am probably better off just running two #8 power cables seperately from the battery for each amp, because i have plenty of #8 power cable and dont want to go and buy some #4.
I also have enough #10 for the subs and was hoping that the #18 would cope with the pioneers, although i agree that they should be #16.
i dont know how they can say the kit i bought is for 1000w speakers and get away with it, but it was cheap and you only get what you pay for.
A joke really cause they sent it with #12 for the power cables but i wont be using that..
I made some progress today, i did a bit of concreting for my friend and in return he made speakers boxes for my pioneers, bearing in mind neither of us have a clue about building them, this is what we have done. we made a 10 inch cube with 1/2 ply, glued and screwed and left a 1/2 gap along the back at the top of each one. I am pleased with the result they dont look that pretty but i'm sure they will be ok, I await for your opinion Swez! lol
so this week i will have the pioneers running on the fusion amp, and i will be able to order the EQ too, so the subs could be working by next week on the kicker,
but lately i've been thinking am i better off waiting a couple of weeks to save up to buy a higher power amp that can run the subs to their full power, and just keep the kicker to put in my car and run the speakers in that to their full potential.
What do you think?
swez on 03/2/2009 03:41:05
Hey Kelt,
You now understand the power of bartering and that's a good option when cash is tight. ("I'll trade my sweat and time on concrete for your box making help"!) Good choice and many do this a lot in lean times. (Swez included)
Yes, If you can use the Kicker for F/R speakers and than obtain a decent Class D amp for your subs, the results will be better than what we have discussed so far. (When you have the cash or barter opportunity to do so)
These JBL subs you have, what is the model # on them? Knowing that, we can steer your to an amp that is up to the task. (Kicker Class D to match would be a nice match)
Swez
kelt on 03/2/2009 16:50:59
No model number on the front of them and i haven't removed them from the box yet, i will if it helps though.
They just say on the front "JBL1000W GT4Series High performance subwoofer" and they are 12's not 10' like i first thought.
Yeah so if i look for a kicker class D with the two channels again so i can fit the front stage speakers at a later date?
swez on 03/2/2009 17:58:20
Kelt,
Found the specs off JBL's website. These are 250 watts RMS per each, best in sealed enclosures and a pair wired in parallel will net a perfect 2 ohm load. That's right in the game for most Class D amps.
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/CAR/Owner's%20Manual/15515%20GT4%20Man_ENG.pdf
This is odd as JBL usually gives recommended enclosure sizes for its subs. There are none posted in the manual. (Digging deeper)
Sealed Enclosure (vol): 28L or 1.0 cf
Vented Enclosure (vol): 64L or 2.26 cf + port area
As for powering these subs, the Kicker 08ZX500.1 is a perfect match and a good companion to your ZX series 4 channel.
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=19219 ($250.00 and free S/H)
Okay, that's a nice package so far and well above par to what you started with.
In summary, this gives you 5 amp channels to work with in all. The 4-channel for F/R speakers and the 500.1 for the subs. One thing we'll have to look deeper at, powering these amps off this vehicles' ALT/BAT and proper wire gage and hardware to select.
The other is figure out what options would be most desirable for your front speakers. In the meantime, save your coins as this will be a tidy sum of sterling when done.
Swez
PS Where are you from anyway Kelt? I am in the USA, Detroit, Michigan area. (Home of GM, Ford and Chrysler cars) Boy, they are all in a bad slump the past year. (Thousands of autoworkers are out of work)
kelt on 03/2/2009 18:53:20
Well my subs are in a vented box, so would you recommend to block off the vent holes?
It looks like the sub box was designed for the speakers, it isn't a home made effort.
Can only get these Amps from your side of the water too eh?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KICKER-08ZX500-1-MONO-SUBWOOFER-AMPLIFIER-500W-RMS-08_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em63Q2el1177QQhashZitem180290913596QQitemZ180290913596QQptZCarQ5fAudioQ5fVideo
Or what about this one?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KICKER-ZX1000-1-MONO-BASS-CAR-AMP-AMPLIFIER-1000W-RMS_W0QQitemZ260368782198QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Audio_TV_Electronics_In_Car_Entertainment_GPS_Car_Amplifiers_PP?hash=item260368782198&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2
kelt on 03/2/2009 18:54:30
Oh i'm from Wales in the UK by the way similar story here with the automotive field.
swez on 03/2/2009 19:20:58
If the subs are aready loaded in a box and it's vented now, just give it a shot as is. If they seem boomy or sloppy, there are some tricks that can be done to modify the box internally to tighten up the bass.
Capping the port(s) is one part of the game. The other is to measure the internal airspace and add some filler materials, (contruction grade lumber to decrease the inner air space to desired range.
That Kicker ZX1000.1 is way too much power for your subs and electrical upgrades will be many and expensive. This is a beast and will shred these subs.
Kicker also has a ZX400.1 Mono amp and that would do the job well if you can find one locally. The ZX500.1 is a perfect match, but the ZX400.1 has enough power to get the job done too.
It would be great if you can do some digging and make some calls to local Kicker Dealers and see if either are available or ebay.co.uk.
Hey, lookie here:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KICKER-MONO-CHANNEL-KX400-1-AMPLIFIER-SUBWOOFER-BASS_W0QQitemZ120359220450QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Audio_TV_Electronics_In_Car_Entertainment_GPS_Car_Amplifiers_PP?hash=item120359220450&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
That would do just swell and a very good price for Kicker quality.
What do you say to this option?
Swez
kelt on 03/7/2009 14:49:09
Hi,
Yeah that amp looks a good comprimise and good value.
I now have the Pioneers running on the fusion amp and i am well impressed.
Its loud and clear all the way up to max on the volume control.
The boxes we made for the speakers seem to act like drums, i dont know if that is good or not, they are ply with a hard board backing which is like a drum skin. It really pumps the drums out well, however the bass could be better imo.
So i think i will have a play with the bass controls on the fusion amp.
i dont even need the subs really but will go for it just to see.
Thanks for all your help.
swez on 03/7/2009 16:06:44
Interesting feedback on those Pioneer speakers and the Fusion amp. This sounds encouraging!
If we knew more about these Pioneer speakers and could fabricate an optimal enclosure for them, you may find they handle bass well enough to eliminate the sub. There are several variables we don't know, but can attempt to find the "sweet spot" for these speakers. Here are some suggested steps:
1. Set the HPF between 40-60 Hz., and listen to how well they handle bass at various volume levels
2. Plug the rear opening/vent, A rag or small towel will do, and repeat the same test (Any difference noted?) Explain your findings
3. If you wanted to test them for full range and bass performance, the way I would do this, would be to construct a 1.0 cf box and progressively shrink the box internally and incrementally to find the sweet spot where you get good bass and acceptable power handling
Do what?
Yes, add filler material to shink the internal air space of the test box until you find the sweet spot for best bass performance in a totally sealed box. (Scratching our heads here)
What kind of filler?
How about dry play sand? I can explain the process further if you really wish to try this. It may sound coo-coo, but it will work.
Have you lost all your marbles Swez?
Maybe... but I know it will work under controlled conditions.
Are you game to step out on a limb?
Swez
You can try dropping the HPF down to 40-60 Hz., and see how accurate these speakers handle low end bass. But since we are working w/o any specifications on these speakers, it's a trial and error type adventure at best.
i'm looking for some advise from the wise ones,
i've not got the time to read loads about ICE, I just want to know what i can do with these speakers and amps i have recently aquired.
I have some unknown HU MP3 player with the four normal speaker out puts and the one RCA out put.
Then i have two 1000W GT4 subwoofers 10" in a box.
A Fusion encounter fe-402 amp: http://plymouth.gumtree.com/plymouth/81/33791481.html
Then i got two 3-way coaxial Pioneer TS-E2090 speakers
and finally a kicker amp: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-JkdjYUyMxfQ/p_206ZX3504/Kicker-ZX350-4.html
I have absolutely no clue about ICe systems, but from what i can gather i think these amps will under power the speakers.
What is the best way to wire these up and how do you run two amps with only one RCA out put from the HU?
I dont want to spend any more cash just want to know what is the best set up for what i have got.
I look forward to hearing your advice.
regards Kelt
Replies (22)
swez on 02/23/2009 21:58:21
Welcome to CK Kelt!
This is a very mixed bag of gear you mentioned. The best parts of the lot are the Kicker 4 channel amp, the JBL subs and that Fusion amp may come in handy for trading up later to a better sub amp.
These Pioneer's are an older model and appear to be 20cm, (8") 3-ways. They'd probably makes some decent book shelf monitors for home use. In a vehicle, a bit large and hard to mount well.
What type of vehicle are you working on here? (Make, body style & Model)
The no-name HU may be useful if in good working order. That one RCA jack, does it say Sub Out on it? (I hope so) Is it one MONO jack or a pair of RCA's?
Are there other speakers in the doors, dash or parcel shelf to work with? If yes, let's get some details on that too.
Finally, there's a lot to consider here as you plan. The more details you can provide, the better our chances of pulling a few bunnies out of the hat. Sometimes, "Less is More". This definitely applies to the gear listed. So far, there are several good pieces of gear in the mix. The rest are marginal at best.
Comments?
Swez
PS The rest is more like patchwork or not very usable to iffy at best. I gotta be honest with our readers here... this system will need some cash infusion to get the best possible sound from what is noted and what seems to be lacking... COFFEE or tea is you prefer
kelt on 02/24/2009 14:15:49
Hi thanks,
I have a Mercedes Vito van 108D.
It has two standard pretty tinny crap sounding speakers at the front of the dash board either side and thats it.
Space is not an issue when it comes to fitting the speakers and amps really,
the van has a metal bulkhead between the cab and rear cargo area and i am going to bolt the GT4 subwoofer box to it so the speakers are facing out towards the back of the van.
Then i was going to cut a couple more holes in the bulkhead and fit the pioneers facing forward into the cab, and yes they are very deep speakers, about 4 maybe 5 inches deep and 8" wide like you say.
The HU does have a pair of RCA's coming out of it like i see on most average HU's, i dont know about it saying sub out though, i will have to have a look tommorrow.
I dont want to spend a lot on this, the van is a shed i have bought while i'm repairing my car, so it was a case of buy the van and then i just happened to get a good deal on the lot i've mentioned above and all i wanna know is how to fit what i've mentioned above to get the best possible sound from what i have.
I have mounted the fusion amp to the side of my drivers seat at the moment it gets good airflow from there and it had the higher out put than the other amp.
So what do you recommend?
from what you have said it sounds like i need to ditch the pioneers, get a decent amp to power the subs and buy some decent mid range and tweeters to run off the kicker amp and sell the fusion.
imo being the tight ass that i am and not having much of a clue,
i had the thought of running the subs off the fusion amp and running the pioneers off the kicker and wanted to know if it is possible to do this or not worth it.
I know it wont be right but thought it may be reasonable, but thats why i'm here asking the people that do know.
I look forward to your advice, and sorry for not giving enough details, i thought i did but then i realised i had not after reading your post.
Thanks kelt
zanilth on 02/24/2009 16:59:45
As far as how to wire both amps, not sure if this is the best way but wal mart sells Y cables, so you can run one RCA cable to between the two amps, hook up the Y cables, and split the signal to the two amps from there.
Running the fusion amp with your 2 10" wired in parallel will put the load at 2 ohm, which (since your amp is 2 ohm stable and taking into account what I've read if I read correctly) will put you pushing around 350-400 watts RMS.
If you are interested in powering the pioneers off of an amp to be your primary speakers, I would recommend tossing the door speakers right now. Factory speakers wouldn't handle the power, and would probably cut down on the sound quality as is. Maybe get you a set of inexpensive components for the doors, set them up on the rear channels of the kicker amp, and the pioneers on the front channel (or vice versa, whichever suits your fancy.)
This setup would work, especially if you have the space to mount. If you are concerned about finances and keeping things cheap, just run something similar to this for now, and upgrade as you wish/deem necessary. This will also help get you familiar with car audio install work (if you are doing it yourself) which will help if/when you decide to upgrade, and do more and better things.
kelt on 02/24/2009 18:10:58
Thanks for the reply.
I was under the impression that you couldn't use y cables unless you had two of the same rated amps and configured the rca cables to run the left hand speakers with one amp and the right speakers with the other one.
If you split the left and right signal to my two different amps for running subs on one and the 3 ways with the other, it isn't going to work correctly is it? or am i missing the point somewhere?
With some thought i have come to this conclusion to get me some instant sounds in my van with what i've got with out spending any cash yet! lol, opinions on this welcome,
My pioneers are 90W Nom each, 250W max.
They are also 3 way which means i get bass, mid and tweeters all in one. If i connect the pioneers to the kicker amp wired in parallel and bridge them across the channels to get the max power of 175 RMS, that is then nearly the 180W nominal RMS the pioneers can handle.
Then i should have some decent quality sound even if its not that loud.
That will be ok until can save up enough cash to buy the correct size amp to run my subs correctly.
..and if i'm well into my audio stuff by then i will ditch the pioneers and replace them with some seperate quality mids and tweeters to run correctly off of the kickers channels.
Please remember i am a novice and not sure if what i'm thinking is correct please advise me if i'm wrong on anything.
Thanks
swez on 02/24/2009 18:32:08
Hehe, think I've seen these vans around and mostly a work van with a safety divider between the cargo are and front seats.
The front speakers are a good place to start. Can you have a look at the front door panels, there may be a place to install some decent front speakers in that location. Take a closer look and see what space is available for flush mounted speakers. If you can see a way to install a set of 6.5" Coaxials in the front doors, that would be a good step.
The dash mounts are probably small format squawkers? If yes, just disconnect then later.
As for these Pioneers, I can see using them in the back as rear fill. These are 3-way coaxials and even though they state 8" basket, the actual cone area of the woofer is more like 6.5" - 7.0". Picture each in a small cube of say ~0.5 cu ft on either side of your sub box and powered off the Fusion amp.
Note: Check the High Pass Filter range on this first. The specs I have found seem to contradict the range of the HPF? (50-20,000 Hz is what I hope for) If that is true, the Pioneers can be powered off this amp.
As for the subs, you can power them off the rear channels of the Kicker amp mentioned. Ponder this configuration a bit and see if you can visualise as mentioned.
Swez
kelt on 02/24/2009 18:52:03
Yeah that sounds good Swez,
So if that is possible how do i go about connecting both amps to my HU correctly?
Many thanks
swez on 02/24/2009 20:19:45
If your HU is "bare bones", but has 1 pair of full range RCA's in it, consider using a Line Driver/EQ add on that gives 3 pairs of RCA's for all amp channels in a very small package.
Have done a few with others here at CK and a client, with well above average results. If you have a pocket in the dash where a 1/2 Din processor will fit, the rest is fish & chips.
These processors need one pair of RCA outs from the HU, add several bands of EQ and kick up the Line Level signal for amps down the audio chain. Many have a Master Volume, dedicated Sub outputs and F/R stereo and BAL outs as well. The EQ features range from 5-7 bands of EQ too. (Much cheaper than a new HU too) Have a look at this one:
http://www.hookedontronics.com/show_product_details.jsp?cid=20367&c=0902Froogle&b=Clarion_EQS746
If this is available to you, or the 5 band EQ, worth looking for.
Swez
PS This unit has a 2nd AUX input for MP3 and I-Pod players. How's that a lot of bang for the buck? (Errr... Sterling pound)
kelt on 02/25/2009 17:45:59
Thats cool exactly what i need! Thanks swez
I can mount and wire everything up with no problems but i haven't any idea about all the amp settings.
Can you give me an idea of what to set all the controls to on the fusion amp with the pioneers connected?
swez on 02/25/2009 23:07:25
Yes, the Clarion EQ/Line Driver is a real step up w/o spending a lot of money.
As for amp settings, this can be done by ear and the amp settings can be adjusted following a few basic steps.
The Fusion amp gain can be set at midpoint initially as would be true for the Kicker amp.
The HPF for your Fusion amp would be set between 60-100 Hz., for these pioneer speakers in sealed boxes. (80 Hz., is typical starting point when we have subs in the mix)
The front channels of your Kicker amp are for the front stage speakers we have discussed. The HPF setting will be determined by the speakers used up front. I'll give more details when you get to that point.
The rear channels will be used to power your JBL woofer(s) Here, we used the LPF network and set to 60-80 Hz. (A little tweaking may be needed to dial everything in just so)
As for signal level RCA's, you'll need 3 pairs long enough to fish from the EQ/LD to amp locations. (F/R & Sub outs) A short RCA pair from the HU outs to the EQ inputs will also be needed. (1 meter should be plenty)
Also, run your power line cable on one side of this van and your RCA and front speaker lines on the other side to prevent noise problems later.
If you can get a copy of the install/users manual for the Clarion EQ/Line Driver, it should show you the proper wiring options. If not, do you have Power Point Reader? I can make up a drawing that gives details on how to wire things up.
Comments?
Swez
kelt on 02/26/2009 16:30:15
Thanks for your help.
I'm going to wire it like this i think, see if you can read my wiring diagram.
[IMG]http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r276/wedibenni/wiring.jpg[/IMG]
Thats if photo bucket works on here??
The battery is under the passenger seat and i am going to fit my amps on the drivers seat, each side.
Then run the power cables and remote along the front of the seats and the RCAS and speakers down the back of the seats.
The hu sits in the middle and i will put the EQ driver in front of the passenger with all the RCA cables coming out of that and going down behind the seats.
What do you think?
swez on 02/26/2009 18:26:31
Saw your drawing and you have the right idea. The only thing missing is front stage speakers, wired to the front channels of your Kicker 4-channel amp.
Also, when you build your Pioneer boxes, try speakers firing up and see how that sounds. The subs firing to the rear are usually a good option to try first.
I think you may need to use a relay system for the power remote circuits for both amps and the EQ. This is a simple step and low cost too. Why? Most HU's REM circuits can usually handle 2 devices. When using 3 or more REM feeds, we use a relay so as not to damage that circuit with too much loading.
Read up on this link and see if it makes sense to you. At first glance, it seems hard to grasp. But after a little study and thinking things through, it will make sense and we'll help you along.
http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp
The coil is energized when the HU is turned on and a REM signal activates the coil. There is a constant +12 volts on one leg of the relay and a ground too. The output to your other devices comes on when the coil is closed. When the HU is turned off, the coil de-energizes and closes the circuit.
Comments/Questions?
Swez
kelt on 02/28/2009 17:16:15
Hi,
Yes i will get front stage speakers when i have some spare cash.
I am familar with relays and cannot understand why you would need them on the remote wire, there is little current draw on that cable and the amps will have their own positive cables from the battery which will carry the current needed to drive the amps.
Are you saying to use a relay to control the main positive cables to the amps from the battery?
As in The red power cable from the battery going to ter. 30 on the relay and then out through 87 to the amp and using the REM wire on the switched circuit, ter. 86 - 85 to activate it?
I would of thought the circuitry in the amp would contain a relay any way and that is what the REM wire is activating?
Another question please if you dont mind, I just bought a cable kit that said it would power 1000W, but i have my doubts about it, the speaker cables are 18AWG.
The speakers cable that came with my subs is 10AWG, which i think is suitable for 1000w,
Will this 18AWG cable be ok to run these 300W pioneers?
swez on 02/28/2009 18:20:15
Oh cool, you understand relays and know how to use them... Whew
Quote:"Are you saying to use a relay to control the main positive cables to the amps from the battery?" Nope, am referring to your HU REM turn on circuit and yes many amplifers use small relays for triggering the main power supplies.
The REMote on the HU is rated between 250-300 mA's of current. If we have more than 2 amplifiers, (Add EQ/LD) you'll likely be over the limit and burn out that circuit as it is not fused. That would lead to a work around step with a switch on the dash to supply REM for all 3 devices. That's just more wiring to run is all.
Another option that will work, run both amps off the HU REM w/o a relay and connect the EQ to the ACC/IGN. It turn on/off manually or just dial the Master volume control way down before turning on your system to avoid thumps from the amplifiers.
As for cabling needs, #4 would be your primary power line min. This gage is rated for 100 amperes of current in short runs to 12 feet or 3 meters long. Then, we use what's called a Distribution Block to split your #4 wire into a pair of #8 gage lines, one for each amp. The ground lines will be #8 per amp as well. The #8 gage is rated for 50 amperes of current flow.
The #18 speaker wire is the minimum gage wire for your Pioneer speakers. We typically recommend #16 for normal amped speakers and #12 gage for subs. Can you return this wire kit for the gage lines you need?
Got all that mate?
Swez
kelt on 03/1/2009 19:11:35
Yes thanks,
Cool, so if i am only using the two amps then i should be ok to not have a relay on the remote wire as long as i wire the eq seperately, i was planning on just connecting it into the HU's ignition feed to power the eq anyway. I shall stick the ammeter on the REM wire and measure what it draws when turning on to make sure then.
About the cabling, lol i thought it was a joke saying it could handle a 1000 w when it only came with 18 gauge speaker wires.
I wont bother sending it back, but i will leave feedback saying it may cope with 300W but not a 1000w (Prehaps i should see if they will send me thicker gauge first too).
If you observed my diagram i was going to just run #8 power cable to the fusion amp and then just tee off it with a short piece to the kicker.
But from you are saying i am probably better off just running two #8 power cables seperately from the battery for each amp, because i have plenty of #8 power cable and dont want to go and buy some #4.
I also have enough #10 for the subs and was hoping that the #18 would cope with the pioneers, although i agree that they should be #16.
i dont know how they can say the kit i bought is for 1000w speakers and get away with it, but it was cheap and you only get what you pay for.
A joke really cause they sent it with #12 for the power cables but i wont be using that..
I made some progress today, i did a bit of concreting for my friend and in return he made speakers boxes for my pioneers, bearing in mind neither of us have a clue about building them, this is what we have done. we made a 10 inch cube with 1/2 ply, glued and screwed and left a 1/2 gap along the back at the top of each one. I am pleased with the result they dont look that pretty but i'm sure they will be ok, I await for your opinion Swez! lol
so this week i will have the pioneers running on the fusion amp, and i will be able to order the EQ too, so the subs could be working by next week on the kicker,
but lately i've been thinking am i better off waiting a couple of weeks to save up to buy a higher power amp that can run the subs to their full power, and just keep the kicker to put in my car and run the speakers in that to their full potential.
What do you think?
swez on 03/2/2009 03:41:05
Hey Kelt,
You now understand the power of bartering and that's a good option when cash is tight. ("I'll trade my sweat and time on concrete for your box making help"!) Good choice and many do this a lot in lean times. (Swez included)
Yes, If you can use the Kicker for F/R speakers and than obtain a decent Class D amp for your subs, the results will be better than what we have discussed so far. (When you have the cash or barter opportunity to do so)
These JBL subs you have, what is the model # on them? Knowing that, we can steer your to an amp that is up to the task. (Kicker Class D to match would be a nice match)
Swez
kelt on 03/2/2009 16:50:59
No model number on the front of them and i haven't removed them from the box yet, i will if it helps though.
They just say on the front "JBL1000W GT4Series High performance subwoofer" and they are 12's not 10' like i first thought.
Yeah so if i look for a kicker class D with the two channels again so i can fit the front stage speakers at a later date?
swez on 03/2/2009 17:58:20
Kelt,
Found the specs off JBL's website. These are 250 watts RMS per each, best in sealed enclosures and a pair wired in parallel will net a perfect 2 ohm load. That's right in the game for most Class D amps.
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/CAR/Owner's%20Manual/15515%20GT4%20Man_ENG.pdf
This is odd as JBL usually gives recommended enclosure sizes for its subs. There are none posted in the manual. (Digging deeper)
Sealed Enclosure (vol): 28L or 1.0 cf
Vented Enclosure (vol): 64L or 2.26 cf + port area
As for powering these subs, the Kicker 08ZX500.1 is a perfect match and a good companion to your ZX series 4 channel.
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=19219 ($250.00 and free S/H)
Okay, that's a nice package so far and well above par to what you started with.
In summary, this gives you 5 amp channels to work with in all. The 4-channel for F/R speakers and the 500.1 for the subs. One thing we'll have to look deeper at, powering these amps off this vehicles' ALT/BAT and proper wire gage and hardware to select.
The other is figure out what options would be most desirable for your front speakers. In the meantime, save your coins as this will be a tidy sum of sterling when done.
Swez
PS Where are you from anyway Kelt? I am in the USA, Detroit, Michigan area. (Home of GM, Ford and Chrysler cars) Boy, they are all in a bad slump the past year. (Thousands of autoworkers are out of work)
kelt on 03/2/2009 18:53:20
Well my subs are in a vented box, so would you recommend to block off the vent holes?
It looks like the sub box was designed for the speakers, it isn't a home made effort.
Can only get these Amps from your side of the water too eh?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KICKER-08ZX500-1-MONO-SUBWOOFER-AMPLIFIER-500W-RMS-08_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em63Q2el1177QQhashZitem180290913596QQitemZ180290913596QQptZCarQ5fAudioQ5fVideo
Or what about this one?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KICKER-ZX1000-1-MONO-BASS-CAR-AMP-AMPLIFIER-1000W-RMS_W0QQitemZ260368782198QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Audio_TV_Electronics_In_Car_Entertainment_GPS_Car_Amplifiers_PP?hash=item260368782198&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2
kelt on 03/2/2009 18:54:30
Oh i'm from Wales in the UK by the way similar story here with the automotive field.
swez on 03/2/2009 19:20:58
If the subs are aready loaded in a box and it's vented now, just give it a shot as is. If they seem boomy or sloppy, there are some tricks that can be done to modify the box internally to tighten up the bass.
Capping the port(s) is one part of the game. The other is to measure the internal airspace and add some filler materials, (contruction grade lumber to decrease the inner air space to desired range.
That Kicker ZX1000.1 is way too much power for your subs and electrical upgrades will be many and expensive. This is a beast and will shred these subs.
Kicker also has a ZX400.1 Mono amp and that would do the job well if you can find one locally. The ZX500.1 is a perfect match, but the ZX400.1 has enough power to get the job done too.
It would be great if you can do some digging and make some calls to local Kicker Dealers and see if either are available or ebay.co.uk.
Hey, lookie here:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KICKER-MONO-CHANNEL-KX400-1-AMPLIFIER-SUBWOOFER-BASS_W0QQitemZ120359220450QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Audio_TV_Electronics_In_Car_Entertainment_GPS_Car_Amplifiers_PP?hash=item120359220450&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
That would do just swell and a very good price for Kicker quality.
What do you say to this option?
Swez
kelt on 03/7/2009 14:49:09
Hi,
Yeah that amp looks a good comprimise and good value.
I now have the Pioneers running on the fusion amp and i am well impressed.
Its loud and clear all the way up to max on the volume control.
The boxes we made for the speakers seem to act like drums, i dont know if that is good or not, they are ply with a hard board backing which is like a drum skin. It really pumps the drums out well, however the bass could be better imo.
So i think i will have a play with the bass controls on the fusion amp.
i dont even need the subs really but will go for it just to see.
Thanks for all your help.
swez on 03/7/2009 16:06:44
Interesting feedback on those Pioneer speakers and the Fusion amp. This sounds encouraging!
If we knew more about these Pioneer speakers and could fabricate an optimal enclosure for them, you may find they handle bass well enough to eliminate the sub. There are several variables we don't know, but can attempt to find the "sweet spot" for these speakers. Here are some suggested steps:
1. Set the HPF between 40-60 Hz., and listen to how well they handle bass at various volume levels
2. Plug the rear opening/vent, A rag or small towel will do, and repeat the same test (Any difference noted?) Explain your findings
3. If you wanted to test them for full range and bass performance, the way I would do this, would be to construct a 1.0 cf box and progressively shrink the box internally and incrementally to find the sweet spot where you get good bass and acceptable power handling
Do what?
Yes, add filler material to shink the internal air space of the test box until you find the sweet spot for best bass performance in a totally sealed box. (Scratching our heads here)
What kind of filler?
How about dry play sand? I can explain the process further if you really wish to try this. It may sound coo-coo, but it will work.
Have you lost all your marbles Swez?
Maybe... but I know it will work under controlled conditions.
Are you game to step out on a limb?
Swez
You can try dropping the HPF down to 40-60 Hz., and see how accurate these speakers handle low end bass. But since we are working w/o any specifications on these speakers, it's a trial and error type adventure at best.
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