First of all I will list my equipment and links if possible.
Amp 1 Kenwood KAC-8101D 200wRMS@4ohms 1000wMAX; http://manuals.kenwood.novenaweb.info/languages/EN/support/manuals/KAC-8151D.pdf
Amp 2 Sony XM-3001SXD 300wRMS@4ohms 1000wMAX; http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/158/158XM3001S.PDF
Amp 3 Alpine MRP-T220 140wRMS@4ohms 250wMAX; http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/500/500MRPF240.PDF
Sub 1 (have only one) Alpine SWE-1242 Single Voice Coil Subwoofer 4 ohms 250wRMS@4ohms 750wMAX; http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/500/500SWE1042.PDF
Sub 2 (have 2) Directed Model 124d 12" 8 ohms each; No link, cant find information anywhere on these.
The loudest system I had hooked up was the 2 Directed subs running at 4ohms on the kenwood KAC-8101D but it sounded muddy to me.
The clearest system I had hooked up was the Alpine SWE-1242 sub with the Alpine MRP-T220 amp. This was my first setup and I quickly outgrew it.
I have not used the sony amp, it was given to me by a friend.
My question is, can I safely run the Alpine SWE-1242 sub with the kenwood KAC-8101D amp in bridged mode?
Or should I try a different setup, ideally I would like to run one sealed box or the other (not both); and also only run one amp.
The manual for the Kenwood KAC-8101D states that AWG 10 or better is reccomended, is this sufficent to power the amp?
Thanks in advance, I hope I did enough homework.
Replies (27)
swez on 02/11/2009 01:15:11
Nice job outlining the gear you have on hand.
The strongest bass you will find is using the pair of Directed subs, wire at 1 ohm. Getting the enclosure right for the pair should clear up the muddiness too. (Go smaller per chamber)
This Kenwood amp is a tad over-rated from the specs in their manual. A Class D amp, 40A fuse shows about 450-475 watts RMS @ 1 ohm loads. If only 1 amp is used, use #8 gage wire for best results.
If you think it's possible to add the Alpine T220 for front speakers later, use a #4 power line and split to a pair of #8 line. (One for each amp)
The 8101D is a Class D Mono amp. It cannot be bridged like 2 & 4 channel models.
Questions/Comments?
Swez
PS Welcome to CK!
think2020 on 02/11/2009 01:29:12
Thanks for the quick response, how exactly would I wire the Directed subs down to 1 ohm, I noticed on the subs (inside the box) there is a wire that runs to the speaker itself. positive to negative. I'm not sure what the ohms on the Directed subs are.
You don't think that I will blow the speakers using this setup?
Thanks for the welcome.
think2020 on 02/11/2009 01:40:36
One thing I did forget to mention is my factory HU has no pre-outs, I was planning on tapping into my rear speaker wire and using a Line Out Converter (bought at Circuit city $15 going out of business) Axxess model is Aloc608
Would this be ok for quality for now, until I replace the Factory HU?
think2020 on 02/11/2009 02:05:30
I think i understand how to wire them down to 1 ohm, just connect all the positives and all the negatives, however the amp has 4 connections two positives and two negatives, if i am reading the manual correctly (page 9) I would then connect my subs into the middle connectors only.
If you can check my stuff I would greatly appreciate it, I'm hoping to hook this up before work tomorrow (well today in the morning) Hopefully it wont blow up in my face.
The long commute of 45 minutes to work everyday has made me pull out all my old gear to see what I can fix up.
After testing the Directed Subs, it seems they are 4ohm, DVC if I am correct. I got 4 ohms when i tested the one side and i would assume that if there are two sides with connectors that means that its DVC.
Also these subs are from 2002 I don't know if that helps any but I am very worried that if I run them at 1 ohm like you suggested Swez, they will blow up in my face.
think2020 on 02/11/2009 02:55:56
Swez,
If i understand you correctly this is how I should have my subwoofers wired: http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8505/2dvcvcparallelsubs6dq.jpg
The only issue that I run into with that as I said in my earlier post is that I have two positive terminals and two negative terminals on my amp.
I'm spending too much time thinking about this, when I should be sleeping, maybe i will wait to connect everything together.
swez on 02/11/2009 10:48:33
All good questions and we'll address them in a timely and logical sequence so costly mistakes are avoided.
Right now, speed is not a friend to your process. Knowledge and understanding are the correct steps for now. Set aside the urgency level, step back out of the forest of doubts and allow us to guide you from one tree to the next. This will save many headaches later. We don't want to see your gear damaged by haste.
OK, if your Directed subs are 4+4 DVC's, the wiring steps are easy to an amp with 4 output terminals. Here's a diagram to wire each sub for a net 2 ohm load. (Observe polarity carefully)
http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/rftech/woofer_wizard.asp?submitted=true&woofer_qty=1&woofer_imp=4 (Option 1)
Here, both subs are now 2 ohms and each sub gets its own set of terminal lugs at the amp. The net load the amp sees is now 1 ohm and your Kenwood amp is 1 ohm stable. This is the easiest way to wire up your subs.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/rftech/woofer_wizard.asp?submitted=true&woofer_qty=2&woofer_imp=4 (Option 1)
The diagram you noted above is a little bit more complex, but that method works too. That method requires only one set of terminal lugs on the amp, but the same results. Either method will accomplish the goal. Pick one that best suits your needs.
Review both diagrams and determine the one that best suits your needs. Some sub enclosures have 2 termination cups, (One per sub) while others have 1 termination cup for both subs. That will determine which wiring method to use.
I'll stop here and let you digest the details. If you have questions, ask them and we'll answer them for you.
Swez
PS Will address other concerns in the next post.
think2020 on 02/11/2009 10:59:21
Thanks for posting those diagrams those are much easier to read.
The sub enclosure has 4 terminals, a set of terminals for each sub so the wiring there will stay the same.
As for the amp it has 4 terimals also so the wiring there will not change either.
The only change that will be necessary is how the subs are wired inside the box, to wire them from 4 ohms down to 2 ohms.
So the final total load will be 2+2 / 2 = 1ohm.
This makes alot more sense. I'm glad I didn't make any foolish mistakes in my rush, I get excited with this stuff easily. I forgot how much fun it is!
swez on 02/11/2009 11:08:02
As for connecting your rear speaker line to feed the amp input section, this amp has 3 options:
1. RCA type line level version
2. Speaker level pigtail that can be tapped off the rear speakers directly
3. Install RCA type line attenuators off the rear speakers to RCA inputs
Any of these 3 options will work. The RCA signal levels are preferred for a cleaner looking install and some guys don't like the Speaker Level inputs for sound quality issues. (I don't know why) The Speaker Level feature offers internal attenuators to lower the signal voltage to RCA Line level. (If you have the pigtail) See page 4 of the Kenwood manual. The far right set of connectors is your Speaker Level input interface.
If you wish to use this method and don't have that pigtail, a good car audio shop should have them for little or no cost.
I would not recomment using LOC's off the rear speakers. Some of the cheap ones can really mess with signal quality. These are designed to be installed at the HU speaker outputs for RCA lines. Like this:
HU speaker out------> LOC in------> LOC out----> RCA line set to amp
Got all that?
Swez
PS I see your enthusiasm for the project and that's fine if tempered with knowledge, skilled hands to guide you and bring down the blood pressure. The thrill of the hunt is great, but let's not shoot off our toes in the process. GRIN
swez on 02/11/2009 11:20:45
Quote: "So the final total load will be 2+2 / 2 = 1ohm."
Not exactly... the equation is more like this:
4/2 = 2 ohms/2 = 1 ohms net load. That's how this one works.
Swez COFFEE
think2020 on 02/11/2009 11:24:02
Sounds great, I dont have the adapter for the amp for the speaker level inputs, I'll check a local shop.
I do have an old sony headunit with preouts sitting in my garage.
I bought a pocket and wire harness to fit my car, both cost around $20 at Circuitcity.
Would I see a huge difference running the HU with pre-outs versus using the speaker level inputs or LOCs with the factory HU?
Thanks for all the input so far, I think I'll run the power and ground a while until I decide how far I want to go with this.
swez on 02/11/2009 11:46:24
Most installer don't use the Speaker Level pigtail and usually have a handful in the back. Most are interchangable and common as salt. Bring your amp to insure the proper fit.
The other option to consider, if you really want to use RCA's, is a inline attenuator. Harrison Labs make them and all that needs to done is to connect short RCA pigtails to speaker line extensions and tap the lead ends off your rear speaker wires. This option allows the installer to use the RCA outs for another amp later if deired. Here's what they look like and where to buy:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=266-242
Yes, I've used PE many times for various products and they are an excellent supplier of many audio parts and such.
What say you?
Swez
swez on 02/11/2009 11:50:43
FYI: When running power lines and RCA Line Level signal wires, always keep them at least 18-24" apart. Most guys run their main power line on one side rail in the car and the RCA's on the other. That's at least 3-4 feet apart to avoid noise problems later.
Also, if that Sony HU is one of the older models, 3-4 years old or more, these models are some of the better products offered by Sony.
Do you know the model number? (manual link would be great)
Swez
think2020 on 02/12/2009 01:50:22
The sony HU is definetly pretty old. I'll get a model number and manual up once I pull it out of my dead ford probe GT. I was going to steal the power and ground that I have run in that car but it is only AWG10.
I do have another kenwood amp sitting at my parents house that I am going to grab its 4 channels and rated at 600w Max I'm not sure of the model number but it is the same style as the other kenwood I have, I'm hoping to run my speakers off of that.
I'm going to need to buy some wire, I know that Lowes/Home depot sell wire by the foot; Would there be anything wrong with buying some AWG-2 or 4 from there and using that instead of the pricey stuff they sell at car audio shops?
I know that current runs better through thicker wire and the braids on the wire for the more expensive stuff always seems to be very small, but in the stuff from home depot etc, the braids are much thicker. I would think that this wire would be better for getting clean power to your amp.
You said that my best setup would be running the directed subs through the amp at a load of 1ohm. Do you think the subs can handle that type of power?
think2020 on 02/12/2009 10:32:28
The Head unit is as follows:
http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=CDXL600X
swez on 02/12/2009 10:37:05
If the 4 channel is rated at 50 x 4 channels, it will do the job well.
Welding cable has been used as low cost option for power feed lines. It's not pretty, but is flexible and has low voltage losses and a thick outer jacket and high wire count copper.
The other bulk spool stuff is stiff, hard to work with and many are aluminum inside the jacket. I've worked with it to install home wire drops to the main fuse panel and it's not easy stuff handle. You have to use special termination hardware too. (Not recommended)
As for your Directed subs, if they are in good mechanical condition, they should handle 200 watts + per each. The main thing here, using the correct size enclosure for them. If a sealed box is used, they should be good. These 12" DVC's right? These should be good in 1.0 - 1.2 cf chambers.
If much larger than that, they could get sloppy and sound muddy at high volumes. There's an easy fix for that too. Can you remove one sub and measure the interior volumn of this box? (Height, Width and Depth)
Swez
think2020 on 02/12/2009 10:43:26
After reading through the manual the sony head unit only has pre-outs for the rear channel, so if I wanted to run the rear speakers off of an amp that should not be a problem, however for the front speakers I would still need to use a LOC or speaker level input.
think2020 on 02/12/2009 10:46:50
The exact box that I have is a SubZone HC-12DS:
http://www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=HC12DC
SUB ZONE HC12DC Box 12x2 sealed 1.2 cu.ft.per
So the chambers should be good.
Think2020
think2020 on 02/12/2009 12:12:06
I now have the Head unit out of my old car and I'm looking at the wiring, I'll need to use the wire harness I bought, Should I run the LOC in between the new HU and the wire harness for the front speakers?
swez on 02/12/2009 12:23:41
I don't think your old Sony HU will help in this project. (RCA's not dedicated to a sub out, but shared rear channels is not a great option)
I have an older Sony HU has 4.0 volt preouts and 6 channels. This one dates back to the days when Sony, (Sony CDX-C6850) made some great products. (It's still sitting in the box and waiting for a home) This was pulled from a buddy's F-150 when he upgrade as barter for my labor in his project. I have no immediate plans to use it and may swap it for cash or sit on it for later use.
Do you recall if your 4 channel Kenwood amp has pre-outs like the sub amp? If yes, you have more options. Here, you can use a 4 channel LOC off the speaker outs from your HU and daisy chain the sub amp from the RCA outs if the 4 channel has preouts, to feed Line Level audio your sub amp. That would be ideal!
As for the sub box, Sub Zone is a good box maker. They don't scrimp on design or materials. However. I cannot find any meaningful details on your Directed subs. Worst case, you can add a few blocks of 2" x 4" per chamber to shrink the internal chambers. We can discuss this option later, when your system is installed, if they don't sound tight and crisp after dialing in your sub amp.
Swez
swez on 02/12/2009 12:42:41
I think your old Sony HU will help in this project. (RCA's are dedicated to a sub out) A 4 channel LOC will feed your 4 channel Kenwood amp. The RCA outs can be used to provide Line Level signal to your sub amp
Do you recall if your 4 channel Kenwood amp has pre-outs like the sub amp? If yes, you have more options. Here, you can use a 4 channel LOC off the speaker outs from your HU and daisy chain the sub amp from the RCA outs if the 4 channel has preouts, to feed Line Level audio your sub amp. That would be ideal!
As for the sub box, Sub Zone is a good box maker. They don't scrimp on design or materials. However. I cannot find any meaningful details on your Directed subs. Worst case, you can add a few blocks of 2" x 4" or 2" x 6" boards per chamber to shrink the internal chambers. We can discuss this option later, when your system is installed, if they don't sound tight and crisp after dialing in your sub amp.
Swez
PS More later as I have to stop for now. Think about the options outlined and we'll discuss them point-by-point later. ;-)
think2020 on 02/13/2009 00:34:22
My four channel amp is the Kenwood KAC-8401: http://inform3.kenwoodusa.com/manuals/KAC8401.pdf
I bought an AWG 4 wiring kit by Tsunami (AMP1000-MANL)
I also bought a "Cat5 spec" twisted pair RCA cable.
Tomorrow I am hoping to hook up the Kenwood KAC-8101D and the Directed Subs through the sony CDXL600X on the "rear channel" RCA preouts. That's how I originally had it running in my ford probe. I'd like to run my factory speakers off of the Kenwood KAC-8401 but I'm not sure that I'm up to the task of wiring the speakers at the same time.
Do the preouts really matter when the amps have a HPF/LPF filter? Shouldn't that take care of the signal or am I missing something?
swez on 02/13/2009 01:54:15
I take it your Cat5 will be 4 pairs of Signal Line voltage, 1.5 - 4.0 volts off a 4 channel LOC, installed at/near the HU? If yes, that will feed your 4 channel well after adjustments. (KAC-8401)
You have an extra pair of RCA preouts in the 8401 to feed your sub amp this way. This will save some extra wiring steps from the HU to your amps. A short pair of RCA's will do. (3 feet or so is all)
You'll need a 4 channel LOC to convert Speaker Level voltages, (10-12 VAC) to Line Level voltages. (4.0 volts or less)
Quote: "Do the preouts really matter when the amps have a HPF/LPF filter? Shouldn't that take care of the signal or am I missing something?
In this case, you may have to experiment. The front HPF should be set to ~80 Hz. The rear HPF may need to be set at Full Range so your 8401 provides bass to the 8101. (LPF set at ~80 Hz too) If bass id not solid and low, you'll have to use the RCA pair off the Sony HU and set it to full range for sub signals and let the 8101 filter to bass only.
Think it over as this requires some trial an error diagnostics.
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/CDXL600Xinstall.pdf (Install Man)
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/CDXL600X.PDF (Op Manual)
Swez
think2020 on 02/14/2009 00:58:02
Well I hooked up the Sony HU and the Kenwood KAC-8101D powering the directed subs at 1ohm stable and I must say the bass sounds much cleaner than it did before, I am really impressed. It's not quite as loud as I had expected but then again I'm no longer driving a hatchback.
I am going to wait on the other amp install to power my front/rear speakers since I would like to run a better deck insted of running LOC for front and rear channels.
I have some settings I can play with on the amp.
I have the LPF frequency set at ~80.
I have the Bass boost set to 12dB.
In order to get the most out of my setup what would be the optimal settings for the following controls?
1. "Expander" switch (When this switch is turned ON the dynamic range is increased.)
2. Infrasonic (Off, 15Hz, 25Hz)
3. Input Sensitivity - I understand this should be set to the preout level of the HU, however I can't seem to find this in the HU manual, can I test the RCA's with a DMM and set the sensitivity accordingly?
think2020 on 02/14/2009 01:07:37
I also made a mistake I probably wont forget, I had the subs wired down to 1 ohm, and I hooked everything up and guess what? No sound or power to my amp, I checked the wiring with a DMM and of course everything was fine, so then i figured the amp must just not like the wiring. I went ahead and rewired the subs and still NOTHING.
At this point I'm like wtf. So I slow down and think things through, of course I realize that I never checked the fuse on the amp. I checked it and of course its blown.
So I proceed to rewire the subs back down to 1 ohm and thank goodness it worked. With a new fuse I had on hand I was back in business.
I felt so retarded for rewiring my subs, but hey everything worked and I'm very happy with the clean install that I was able to accomplish.
I do have another question for ya though, do you have any suggestions on how to keep my sub box in one place in the trunk?
swez on 02/14/2009 08:56:57
Whew... just a blown fuse huh?
That rarely happens unless something in the amp guts has gone south or the power and ground wires were install in reverse polarity. In this case, too much Bass Boost and improper gain setting would be the likely culprits here.
As for keeping the sub box from sliding around, a set of 4 large rubber feet should stop that. I've used these many times:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-777
Amp gain setting will range between 1.25 - 2.0 volts. I believe your Sony is spec'd at 2.2 volts max. Your Bass Boost is a tad high. We generally recommend +6 dB on the amp for daily drivers. a +12 dB setting is only used for short duration SPL tests and Competition.
Comments?
Swez
PS It's difficult to measure RCA voltage levels properly w/o knowing the amplifiers' input impedance. Amp can range a good deal from amp makers. Amp specs say 10,000 ohms according to Kenwood specs.
That means buying a pair of 10K resistors and hope the test results are within range. I would'nt bother. Just tune by ear or use your DMM to measure sub output voltage. (Target voltage at 400 watts to a 1-ohm load is ~20 volts AC with subs connected) Since subs vary in resistance/impedance considerably at various frequencies, it's not an accurate test!
think2020 on 02/17/2009 16:55:51
Thanks for all the help Swez,
I've got a decent system now, much better for long car rides alone.
I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on a Head Unit with Front/Rear/Sub preouts since I'm not really in the position to buy just yet. I had an old eclipse HU that I absolutely loved, which of course got stolen along with my kicker 12s when I lived in Pittsburgh.
Hopefully I will be able to hookup the Kenwood 4-channel (KAC-8401) to my factory speakers without blowing them up.
Think2020
swez on 02/17/2009 17:47:27
You're most welcome!
Most cheap factory speakers can handle 15-20 watts RMS. The trick here, is to limit the frequency range with the amps' HPF network. (80 - 100 Hz., is good) When you start to hear cone break up, dial back on the power or they will be toast.
This car is 9 years old already and most stock speakers are cheap and fall apart with added power. If you have speakers mounted in the rear deck and the sun hits them alot in the summer, they will be the first to fail. (Dry and brittle paper cones)
Swez
Amp 1 Kenwood KAC-8101D 200wRMS@4ohms 1000wMAX; http://manuals.kenwood.novenaweb.info/languages/EN/support/manuals/KAC-8151D.pdf
Amp 2 Sony XM-3001SXD 300wRMS@4ohms 1000wMAX; http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/158/158XM3001S.PDF
Amp 3 Alpine MRP-T220 140wRMS@4ohms 250wMAX; http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/500/500MRPF240.PDF
Sub 1 (have only one) Alpine SWE-1242 Single Voice Coil Subwoofer 4 ohms 250wRMS@4ohms 750wMAX; http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/500/500SWE1042.PDF
Sub 2 (have 2) Directed Model 124d 12" 8 ohms each; No link, cant find information anywhere on these.
The loudest system I had hooked up was the 2 Directed subs running at 4ohms on the kenwood KAC-8101D but it sounded muddy to me.
The clearest system I had hooked up was the Alpine SWE-1242 sub with the Alpine MRP-T220 amp. This was my first setup and I quickly outgrew it.
I have not used the sony amp, it was given to me by a friend.
My question is, can I safely run the Alpine SWE-1242 sub with the kenwood KAC-8101D amp in bridged mode?
Or should I try a different setup, ideally I would like to run one sealed box or the other (not both); and also only run one amp.
The manual for the Kenwood KAC-8101D states that AWG 10 or better is reccomended, is this sufficent to power the amp?
Thanks in advance, I hope I did enough homework.
Replies (27)
swez on 02/11/2009 01:15:11
Nice job outlining the gear you have on hand.
The strongest bass you will find is using the pair of Directed subs, wire at 1 ohm. Getting the enclosure right for the pair should clear up the muddiness too. (Go smaller per chamber)
This Kenwood amp is a tad over-rated from the specs in their manual. A Class D amp, 40A fuse shows about 450-475 watts RMS @ 1 ohm loads. If only 1 amp is used, use #8 gage wire for best results.
If you think it's possible to add the Alpine T220 for front speakers later, use a #4 power line and split to a pair of #8 line. (One for each amp)
The 8101D is a Class D Mono amp. It cannot be bridged like 2 & 4 channel models.
Questions/Comments?
Swez
PS Welcome to CK!
think2020 on 02/11/2009 01:29:12
Thanks for the quick response, how exactly would I wire the Directed subs down to 1 ohm, I noticed on the subs (inside the box) there is a wire that runs to the speaker itself. positive to negative. I'm not sure what the ohms on the Directed subs are.
You don't think that I will blow the speakers using this setup?
Thanks for the welcome.
think2020 on 02/11/2009 01:40:36
One thing I did forget to mention is my factory HU has no pre-outs, I was planning on tapping into my rear speaker wire and using a Line Out Converter (bought at Circuit city $15 going out of business) Axxess model is Aloc608
Would this be ok for quality for now, until I replace the Factory HU?
think2020 on 02/11/2009 02:05:30
I think i understand how to wire them down to 1 ohm, just connect all the positives and all the negatives, however the amp has 4 connections two positives and two negatives, if i am reading the manual correctly (page 9) I would then connect my subs into the middle connectors only.
If you can check my stuff I would greatly appreciate it, I'm hoping to hook this up before work tomorrow (well today in the morning) Hopefully it wont blow up in my face.
The long commute of 45 minutes to work everyday has made me pull out all my old gear to see what I can fix up.
After testing the Directed Subs, it seems they are 4ohm, DVC if I am correct. I got 4 ohms when i tested the one side and i would assume that if there are two sides with connectors that means that its DVC.
Also these subs are from 2002 I don't know if that helps any but I am very worried that if I run them at 1 ohm like you suggested Swez, they will blow up in my face.
think2020 on 02/11/2009 02:55:56
Swez,
If i understand you correctly this is how I should have my subwoofers wired: http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8505/2dvcvcparallelsubs6dq.jpg
The only issue that I run into with that as I said in my earlier post is that I have two positive terminals and two negative terminals on my amp.
I'm spending too much time thinking about this, when I should be sleeping, maybe i will wait to connect everything together.
swez on 02/11/2009 10:48:33
All good questions and we'll address them in a timely and logical sequence so costly mistakes are avoided.
Right now, speed is not a friend to your process. Knowledge and understanding are the correct steps for now. Set aside the urgency level, step back out of the forest of doubts and allow us to guide you from one tree to the next. This will save many headaches later. We don't want to see your gear damaged by haste.
OK, if your Directed subs are 4+4 DVC's, the wiring steps are easy to an amp with 4 output terminals. Here's a diagram to wire each sub for a net 2 ohm load. (Observe polarity carefully)
http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/rftech/woofer_wizard.asp?submitted=true&woofer_qty=1&woofer_imp=4 (Option 1)
Here, both subs are now 2 ohms and each sub gets its own set of terminal lugs at the amp. The net load the amp sees is now 1 ohm and your Kenwood amp is 1 ohm stable. This is the easiest way to wire up your subs.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/rftech/woofer_wizard.asp?submitted=true&woofer_qty=2&woofer_imp=4 (Option 1)
The diagram you noted above is a little bit more complex, but that method works too. That method requires only one set of terminal lugs on the amp, but the same results. Either method will accomplish the goal. Pick one that best suits your needs.
Review both diagrams and determine the one that best suits your needs. Some sub enclosures have 2 termination cups, (One per sub) while others have 1 termination cup for both subs. That will determine which wiring method to use.
I'll stop here and let you digest the details. If you have questions, ask them and we'll answer them for you.
Swez
PS Will address other concerns in the next post.
think2020 on 02/11/2009 10:59:21
Thanks for posting those diagrams those are much easier to read.
The sub enclosure has 4 terminals, a set of terminals for each sub so the wiring there will stay the same.
As for the amp it has 4 terimals also so the wiring there will not change either.
The only change that will be necessary is how the subs are wired inside the box, to wire them from 4 ohms down to 2 ohms.
So the final total load will be 2+2 / 2 = 1ohm.
This makes alot more sense. I'm glad I didn't make any foolish mistakes in my rush, I get excited with this stuff easily. I forgot how much fun it is!
swez on 02/11/2009 11:08:02
As for connecting your rear speaker line to feed the amp input section, this amp has 3 options:
1. RCA type line level version
2. Speaker level pigtail that can be tapped off the rear speakers directly
3. Install RCA type line attenuators off the rear speakers to RCA inputs
Any of these 3 options will work. The RCA signal levels are preferred for a cleaner looking install and some guys don't like the Speaker Level inputs for sound quality issues. (I don't know why) The Speaker Level feature offers internal attenuators to lower the signal voltage to RCA Line level. (If you have the pigtail) See page 4 of the Kenwood manual. The far right set of connectors is your Speaker Level input interface.
If you wish to use this method and don't have that pigtail, a good car audio shop should have them for little or no cost.
I would not recomment using LOC's off the rear speakers. Some of the cheap ones can really mess with signal quality. These are designed to be installed at the HU speaker outputs for RCA lines. Like this:
HU speaker out------> LOC in------> LOC out----> RCA line set to amp
Got all that?
Swez
PS I see your enthusiasm for the project and that's fine if tempered with knowledge, skilled hands to guide you and bring down the blood pressure. The thrill of the hunt is great, but let's not shoot off our toes in the process. GRIN
swez on 02/11/2009 11:20:45
Quote: "So the final total load will be 2+2 / 2 = 1ohm."
Not exactly... the equation is more like this:
4/2 = 2 ohms/2 = 1 ohms net load. That's how this one works.
Swez COFFEE
think2020 on 02/11/2009 11:24:02
Sounds great, I dont have the adapter for the amp for the speaker level inputs, I'll check a local shop.
I do have an old sony headunit with preouts sitting in my garage.
I bought a pocket and wire harness to fit my car, both cost around $20 at Circuitcity.
Would I see a huge difference running the HU with pre-outs versus using the speaker level inputs or LOCs with the factory HU?
Thanks for all the input so far, I think I'll run the power and ground a while until I decide how far I want to go with this.
swez on 02/11/2009 11:46:24
Most installer don't use the Speaker Level pigtail and usually have a handful in the back. Most are interchangable and common as salt. Bring your amp to insure the proper fit.
The other option to consider, if you really want to use RCA's, is a inline attenuator. Harrison Labs make them and all that needs to done is to connect short RCA pigtails to speaker line extensions and tap the lead ends off your rear speaker wires. This option allows the installer to use the RCA outs for another amp later if deired. Here's what they look like and where to buy:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=266-242
Yes, I've used PE many times for various products and they are an excellent supplier of many audio parts and such.
What say you?
Swez
swez on 02/11/2009 11:50:43
FYI: When running power lines and RCA Line Level signal wires, always keep them at least 18-24" apart. Most guys run their main power line on one side rail in the car and the RCA's on the other. That's at least 3-4 feet apart to avoid noise problems later.
Also, if that Sony HU is one of the older models, 3-4 years old or more, these models are some of the better products offered by Sony.
Do you know the model number? (manual link would be great)
Swez
think2020 on 02/12/2009 01:50:22
The sony HU is definetly pretty old. I'll get a model number and manual up once I pull it out of my dead ford probe GT. I was going to steal the power and ground that I have run in that car but it is only AWG10.
I do have another kenwood amp sitting at my parents house that I am going to grab its 4 channels and rated at 600w Max I'm not sure of the model number but it is the same style as the other kenwood I have, I'm hoping to run my speakers off of that.
I'm going to need to buy some wire, I know that Lowes/Home depot sell wire by the foot; Would there be anything wrong with buying some AWG-2 or 4 from there and using that instead of the pricey stuff they sell at car audio shops?
I know that current runs better through thicker wire and the braids on the wire for the more expensive stuff always seems to be very small, but in the stuff from home depot etc, the braids are much thicker. I would think that this wire would be better for getting clean power to your amp.
You said that my best setup would be running the directed subs through the amp at a load of 1ohm. Do you think the subs can handle that type of power?
think2020 on 02/12/2009 10:32:28
The Head unit is as follows:
http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=CDXL600X
swez on 02/12/2009 10:37:05
If the 4 channel is rated at 50 x 4 channels, it will do the job well.
Welding cable has been used as low cost option for power feed lines. It's not pretty, but is flexible and has low voltage losses and a thick outer jacket and high wire count copper.
The other bulk spool stuff is stiff, hard to work with and many are aluminum inside the jacket. I've worked with it to install home wire drops to the main fuse panel and it's not easy stuff handle. You have to use special termination hardware too. (Not recommended)
As for your Directed subs, if they are in good mechanical condition, they should handle 200 watts + per each. The main thing here, using the correct size enclosure for them. If a sealed box is used, they should be good. These 12" DVC's right? These should be good in 1.0 - 1.2 cf chambers.
If much larger than that, they could get sloppy and sound muddy at high volumes. There's an easy fix for that too. Can you remove one sub and measure the interior volumn of this box? (Height, Width and Depth)
Swez
think2020 on 02/12/2009 10:43:26
After reading through the manual the sony head unit only has pre-outs for the rear channel, so if I wanted to run the rear speakers off of an amp that should not be a problem, however for the front speakers I would still need to use a LOC or speaker level input.
think2020 on 02/12/2009 10:46:50
The exact box that I have is a SubZone HC-12DS:
http://www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=HC12DC
SUB ZONE HC12DC Box 12x2 sealed 1.2 cu.ft.per
So the chambers should be good.
Think2020
think2020 on 02/12/2009 12:12:06
I now have the Head unit out of my old car and I'm looking at the wiring, I'll need to use the wire harness I bought, Should I run the LOC in between the new HU and the wire harness for the front speakers?
swez on 02/12/2009 12:23:41
I don't think your old Sony HU will help in this project. (RCA's not dedicated to a sub out, but shared rear channels is not a great option)
I have an older Sony HU has 4.0 volt preouts and 6 channels. This one dates back to the days when Sony, (Sony CDX-C6850) made some great products. (It's still sitting in the box and waiting for a home) This was pulled from a buddy's F-150 when he upgrade as barter for my labor in his project. I have no immediate plans to use it and may swap it for cash or sit on it for later use.
Do you recall if your 4 channel Kenwood amp has pre-outs like the sub amp? If yes, you have more options. Here, you can use a 4 channel LOC off the speaker outs from your HU and daisy chain the sub amp from the RCA outs if the 4 channel has preouts, to feed Line Level audio your sub amp. That would be ideal!
As for the sub box, Sub Zone is a good box maker. They don't scrimp on design or materials. However. I cannot find any meaningful details on your Directed subs. Worst case, you can add a few blocks of 2" x 4" per chamber to shrink the internal chambers. We can discuss this option later, when your system is installed, if they don't sound tight and crisp after dialing in your sub amp.
Swez
swez on 02/12/2009 12:42:41
I think your old Sony HU will help in this project. (RCA's are dedicated to a sub out) A 4 channel LOC will feed your 4 channel Kenwood amp. The RCA outs can be used to provide Line Level signal to your sub amp
Do you recall if your 4 channel Kenwood amp has pre-outs like the sub amp? If yes, you have more options. Here, you can use a 4 channel LOC off the speaker outs from your HU and daisy chain the sub amp from the RCA outs if the 4 channel has preouts, to feed Line Level audio your sub amp. That would be ideal!
As for the sub box, Sub Zone is a good box maker. They don't scrimp on design or materials. However. I cannot find any meaningful details on your Directed subs. Worst case, you can add a few blocks of 2" x 4" or 2" x 6" boards per chamber to shrink the internal chambers. We can discuss this option later, when your system is installed, if they don't sound tight and crisp after dialing in your sub amp.
Swez
PS More later as I have to stop for now. Think about the options outlined and we'll discuss them point-by-point later. ;-)
think2020 on 02/13/2009 00:34:22
My four channel amp is the Kenwood KAC-8401: http://inform3.kenwoodusa.com/manuals/KAC8401.pdf
I bought an AWG 4 wiring kit by Tsunami (AMP1000-MANL)
I also bought a "Cat5 spec" twisted pair RCA cable.
Tomorrow I am hoping to hook up the Kenwood KAC-8101D and the Directed Subs through the sony CDXL600X on the "rear channel" RCA preouts. That's how I originally had it running in my ford probe. I'd like to run my factory speakers off of the Kenwood KAC-8401 but I'm not sure that I'm up to the task of wiring the speakers at the same time.
Do the preouts really matter when the amps have a HPF/LPF filter? Shouldn't that take care of the signal or am I missing something?
swez on 02/13/2009 01:54:15
I take it your Cat5 will be 4 pairs of Signal Line voltage, 1.5 - 4.0 volts off a 4 channel LOC, installed at/near the HU? If yes, that will feed your 4 channel well after adjustments. (KAC-8401)
You have an extra pair of RCA preouts in the 8401 to feed your sub amp this way. This will save some extra wiring steps from the HU to your amps. A short pair of RCA's will do. (3 feet or so is all)
You'll need a 4 channel LOC to convert Speaker Level voltages, (10-12 VAC) to Line Level voltages. (4.0 volts or less)
Quote: "Do the preouts really matter when the amps have a HPF/LPF filter? Shouldn't that take care of the signal or am I missing something?
In this case, you may have to experiment. The front HPF should be set to ~80 Hz. The rear HPF may need to be set at Full Range so your 8401 provides bass to the 8101. (LPF set at ~80 Hz too) If bass id not solid and low, you'll have to use the RCA pair off the Sony HU and set it to full range for sub signals and let the 8101 filter to bass only.
Think it over as this requires some trial an error diagnostics.
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/CDXL600Xinstall.pdf (Install Man)
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/CDXL600X.PDF (Op Manual)
Swez
think2020 on 02/14/2009 00:58:02
Well I hooked up the Sony HU and the Kenwood KAC-8101D powering the directed subs at 1ohm stable and I must say the bass sounds much cleaner than it did before, I am really impressed. It's not quite as loud as I had expected but then again I'm no longer driving a hatchback.
I am going to wait on the other amp install to power my front/rear speakers since I would like to run a better deck insted of running LOC for front and rear channels.
I have some settings I can play with on the amp.
I have the LPF frequency set at ~80.
I have the Bass boost set to 12dB.
In order to get the most out of my setup what would be the optimal settings for the following controls?
1. "Expander" switch (When this switch is turned ON the dynamic range is increased.)
2. Infrasonic (Off, 15Hz, 25Hz)
3. Input Sensitivity - I understand this should be set to the preout level of the HU, however I can't seem to find this in the HU manual, can I test the RCA's with a DMM and set the sensitivity accordingly?
think2020 on 02/14/2009 01:07:37
I also made a mistake I probably wont forget, I had the subs wired down to 1 ohm, and I hooked everything up and guess what? No sound or power to my amp, I checked the wiring with a DMM and of course everything was fine, so then i figured the amp must just not like the wiring. I went ahead and rewired the subs and still NOTHING.
At this point I'm like wtf. So I slow down and think things through, of course I realize that I never checked the fuse on the amp. I checked it and of course its blown.
So I proceed to rewire the subs back down to 1 ohm and thank goodness it worked. With a new fuse I had on hand I was back in business.
I felt so retarded for rewiring my subs, but hey everything worked and I'm very happy with the clean install that I was able to accomplish.
I do have another question for ya though, do you have any suggestions on how to keep my sub box in one place in the trunk?
swez on 02/14/2009 08:56:57
Whew... just a blown fuse huh?
That rarely happens unless something in the amp guts has gone south or the power and ground wires were install in reverse polarity. In this case, too much Bass Boost and improper gain setting would be the likely culprits here.
As for keeping the sub box from sliding around, a set of 4 large rubber feet should stop that. I've used these many times:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-777
Amp gain setting will range between 1.25 - 2.0 volts. I believe your Sony is spec'd at 2.2 volts max. Your Bass Boost is a tad high. We generally recommend +6 dB on the amp for daily drivers. a +12 dB setting is only used for short duration SPL tests and Competition.
Comments?
Swez
PS It's difficult to measure RCA voltage levels properly w/o knowing the amplifiers' input impedance. Amp can range a good deal from amp makers. Amp specs say 10,000 ohms according to Kenwood specs.
That means buying a pair of 10K resistors and hope the test results are within range. I would'nt bother. Just tune by ear or use your DMM to measure sub output voltage. (Target voltage at 400 watts to a 1-ohm load is ~20 volts AC with subs connected) Since subs vary in resistance/impedance considerably at various frequencies, it's not an accurate test!
think2020 on 02/17/2009 16:55:51
Thanks for all the help Swez,
I've got a decent system now, much better for long car rides alone.
I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on a Head Unit with Front/Rear/Sub preouts since I'm not really in the position to buy just yet. I had an old eclipse HU that I absolutely loved, which of course got stolen along with my kicker 12s when I lived in Pittsburgh.
Hopefully I will be able to hookup the Kenwood 4-channel (KAC-8401) to my factory speakers without blowing them up.
Think2020
swez on 02/17/2009 17:47:27
You're most welcome!
Most cheap factory speakers can handle 15-20 watts RMS. The trick here, is to limit the frequency range with the amps' HPF network. (80 - 100 Hz., is good) When you start to hear cone break up, dial back on the power or they will be toast.
This car is 9 years old already and most stock speakers are cheap and fall apart with added power. If you have speakers mounted in the rear deck and the sun hits them alot in the summer, they will be the first to fail. (Dry and brittle paper cones)
Swez
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