Ok, so looking around a bit, I see a walkthrough for setting amplifier gains.
My question is this... Is setting the gains to those specifications a recommendation, or is that how gains should be set for virtually every application, to prevent damage and get the best sound from the equipment?
Replies (12)
swez on 02/7/2009 15:51:23
This post covers pretty much all amplifiers setup:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t3
The goal is to have the amps working clean and strong at 80% of the HU volume settings. If you play a lot of heavy bass rap, it's very easy to get the sub amp clipping pretty hard. (Some additional gain and bass boost adjustments are needed)
Swez
zanilth on 02/7/2009 15:54:30
Ok, so the procedure outlined here:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t57
isn't something that is necessarily required so much. Thanks :)
swez on 02/7/2009 16:58:08
Victor's approach is what a guy in a well-fitted shop would do. To do this well, the test tones have to 0dB reference to get an exact reading.
These tones can be copied off the Internet and loaded/burned to a test cd. A 30 second cut helps and use the repeat track feature.
I prefer "Pink Noise" as it's full range and a more accurate representation of a complex audio signal.
As for measuring output voltage, speakers w/ crossovers may give inaccurate voltage readings if they do not have Rnductive, Capacitive and Resistance load balancing circuits in the crossovers. Expensive component system do. Cheap caps and coils do not and will give erronous readings on the DMM.
Also, when we use speakers as the load, the impedance changes considerably with frequency. To avoid that, a tech will use non-inductive load resistors as the amp output load. Here's a video that shows the most accurate way to set amp gains. (Sub or full range)
http://www.icixsound.com/iv/view_video.php?viewkey=929b125f8597834fa83a
Does that help?
Swez
zanilth on 02/7/2009 17:14:45
Hrm, I think I'll just stick with the way you listed already... Too many variables to worry about with all that. Thanks though lol
swez on 02/7/2009 19:12:06
Yep, the ears are a good tool for most work and if you have a decent DMM, that will be close enough.
A little backround if you like. My twin brother is a Pro Sound installer, fabricator and systems designer. In years past, we worked on many commercial retail, restaurants, large venue clubs, churches, live sound and hockey arena gigs.
We also built a lot of enclosures about 8-10 years ago and now do mostly service, AV & Audio and several live shows a year. Those are fun and get pretty hairy with a small crew and lots of heavy gear. We just finished a month long install at a new teen club that opened last week. Have not done one on this large a scale in some time, but it came out very well. (Multi-zone DJ type system and a VIP room to meet and greet the DJ too)
It was hard work for 2 guys to sling large format JBL boxes up in the ceiling strutts. We used 4 bass bins, (2x15's JBL's powered by QSC amps) under the dance platforms and 3 dual 18" thunder bass bins under the main stage. (Community Light & sound monsters)
The mid/highs were all bi-amped for best clarity and control. We used a total of 16 QSC amps in this system.and a rack full of EQ, DSP prosessors and active crossovers. Dale is a wiz at the head end gear and much of my time was installing main wire runs, outboard amps, remote turn on delays and flying speakers. Yep, 25 hours of that really kicked my butt. (I must be getting older)
Anyway, that's a short story on stuff. How about your journey? You seem to have a good handle on car audio. Say more...
Swez
zanilth on 02/7/2009 20:01:42
Nice resume and experience :)
Unfortunately, mine is nothing like that. I'm 24, and in the Army National Guard. My original MOS was signal support, which was install, maintenance, and troubleshooting of any and all communications equipment the military uses....but thats all my professional experience with electronics goes.
I have installed quite a few CD players in various vehicles, and have helped a few friends with systems in their autos. The actual wiring and installation of most things just seems simple to me. I haven't had the experience of working with too complicated systems yet that include equalizers and capacitors and such, and since really the only car audio I forsee doing for the near future is my own, I probably won't get too involved with that anyway.
I need to work on some stuff like the finer points of tweaking and tuning... I usually do the 'sounds best' route, but there are a few things that I'm sure I'm not fully aware of yet. I always take an opportunity to learn and figure stuff out though, so any tips and pointers I'll definitely appreciate it :)
swez on 02/7/2009 20:41:00
Well sir, there's a 30 year gap in our ages and experiences in life. Nothing we learn will go to waste. We're just a few bends in the river apart is all. (Ah, a mile or two apart) What you have learned so far is a good stepping stone to other things in the Communications field later. (If you want that) Communications techs make good money and the outlook for future employment is very good too.
Have been through many of the parts of the river you have yet to see and some are amazing wonders, while others are terrifying w/o a guide and a safety line.
You will learn the finer parts of anything you set your mind to. Fortunately, some of that is already been established as a guy in the Guard. They gave you the fundamentals, stretched your mind and body to point you may have never thought posssible and these will serve you well in life as a civilian later. For now, learn what you do best, find out how it all works and then grab it and run for all it's worth.
I've had a few other brass rings in life, worth hanging on to. I've also lost a few that could have been added, but dropped the ball or others I depended on did. That's life! A good quote to remember:
"If one falls, may it be on our faces. We may be dazed, confused and disoriented for a time, but when we get back to our feet, we are still pointed in the intended direction".
That's where the "buddy system" comes into play. Our true buddies will pick us up, dust us off, mend the injuries and carry us along until we can do it on our own steam again.
Can you resonate with that idea?
Swez
PS Yes, I'd be happy to lead you through the harder stuff with one request... When you get your wings, you show others how to fly. Is that a fair deal?
zanilth on 02/8/2009 09:09:19
Well, actually I now work full time for the Guard here, and unless things change that'll probably be my career field for awhile. Not to say that I won't look into a secondary field, for future use or a just in case situation.
I'm always game for helping others out. I might not know everything about the subject at hand (whatever that may be) but I do what I can to figure it out and give a helping hand. :)
swez on 02/8/2009 09:44:07
Yes, I can tell you have open mind, willing to learn and share ideas with others with ease. That's why I asked for your partnering with Sonde and other as you see fit.
Actually, your career may be better/more secure, right where you're at for a while. Until the economy settles down, working for the Guard may be a great place to ride out this difficult time.
Dave
MrBrownstone on 02/10/2009 22:50:58
I ain't gonna lie to ya, the best systems I've heard were tuned by ear.
Microphones have a way of being totally unable to hear a lot of phase issues, etc....whereas you monkeying around with controls can hear things because of how you get to balancing the sound.
Unless you are living in an RTA world, focus in the positioning of the speakers and getting a line of sight. After that, gain control matching is really more of a process.
ttocs on 02/10/2009 23:56:18
I have been installing on and off profesionally for almost 15 yrs now. In that time I can't tell you how many systems I built from a simple add on sub to a full blown "rock your socks" systems. I can how ever tell you how many times I tuned a system with something other then my ear, 1 TIME! I did a big system years ago with 4 large phoenix gold amps and 4 12" subs where we had the subs running off different amps and in different boxes and needed to make sure the subs were tuned properly but that was done properly with an osciliscope.
Its also funny as most of the poeple that use instruments to tune systems will often complete the tuning by listening to the system and making final adjustments to what sounds good to their ears.
swez on 02/11/2009 01:22:54
Agreed, for car audio, the ear method is usually a very good gage on gain setting. As long as the user knows what excess distortion sounds like, you'll get a pretty good ballpark setting.
Guys like Mr. B and ttocs have been in this game a long time and know exactly what targets to hit. As ttocs said, we can use a lot of fancy tools initially, but the bottom line is our own ears.
Swez
My question is this... Is setting the gains to those specifications a recommendation, or is that how gains should be set for virtually every application, to prevent damage and get the best sound from the equipment?
Replies (12)
swez on 02/7/2009 15:51:23
This post covers pretty much all amplifiers setup:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t3
The goal is to have the amps working clean and strong at 80% of the HU volume settings. If you play a lot of heavy bass rap, it's very easy to get the sub amp clipping pretty hard. (Some additional gain and bass boost adjustments are needed)
Swez
zanilth on 02/7/2009 15:54:30
Ok, so the procedure outlined here:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t57
isn't something that is necessarily required so much. Thanks :)
swez on 02/7/2009 16:58:08
Victor's approach is what a guy in a well-fitted shop would do. To do this well, the test tones have to 0dB reference to get an exact reading.
These tones can be copied off the Internet and loaded/burned to a test cd. A 30 second cut helps and use the repeat track feature.
I prefer "Pink Noise" as it's full range and a more accurate representation of a complex audio signal.
As for measuring output voltage, speakers w/ crossovers may give inaccurate voltage readings if they do not have Rnductive, Capacitive and Resistance load balancing circuits in the crossovers. Expensive component system do. Cheap caps and coils do not and will give erronous readings on the DMM.
Also, when we use speakers as the load, the impedance changes considerably with frequency. To avoid that, a tech will use non-inductive load resistors as the amp output load. Here's a video that shows the most accurate way to set amp gains. (Sub or full range)
http://www.icixsound.com/iv/view_video.php?viewkey=929b125f8597834fa83a
Does that help?
Swez
zanilth on 02/7/2009 17:14:45
Hrm, I think I'll just stick with the way you listed already... Too many variables to worry about with all that. Thanks though lol
swez on 02/7/2009 19:12:06
Yep, the ears are a good tool for most work and if you have a decent DMM, that will be close enough.
A little backround if you like. My twin brother is a Pro Sound installer, fabricator and systems designer. In years past, we worked on many commercial retail, restaurants, large venue clubs, churches, live sound and hockey arena gigs.
We also built a lot of enclosures about 8-10 years ago and now do mostly service, AV & Audio and several live shows a year. Those are fun and get pretty hairy with a small crew and lots of heavy gear. We just finished a month long install at a new teen club that opened last week. Have not done one on this large a scale in some time, but it came out very well. (Multi-zone DJ type system and a VIP room to meet and greet the DJ too)
It was hard work for 2 guys to sling large format JBL boxes up in the ceiling strutts. We used 4 bass bins, (2x15's JBL's powered by QSC amps) under the dance platforms and 3 dual 18" thunder bass bins under the main stage. (Community Light & sound monsters)
The mid/highs were all bi-amped for best clarity and control. We used a total of 16 QSC amps in this system.and a rack full of EQ, DSP prosessors and active crossovers. Dale is a wiz at the head end gear and much of my time was installing main wire runs, outboard amps, remote turn on delays and flying speakers. Yep, 25 hours of that really kicked my butt. (I must be getting older)
Anyway, that's a short story on stuff. How about your journey? You seem to have a good handle on car audio. Say more...
Swez
zanilth on 02/7/2009 20:01:42
Nice resume and experience :)
Unfortunately, mine is nothing like that. I'm 24, and in the Army National Guard. My original MOS was signal support, which was install, maintenance, and troubleshooting of any and all communications equipment the military uses....but thats all my professional experience with electronics goes.
I have installed quite a few CD players in various vehicles, and have helped a few friends with systems in their autos. The actual wiring and installation of most things just seems simple to me. I haven't had the experience of working with too complicated systems yet that include equalizers and capacitors and such, and since really the only car audio I forsee doing for the near future is my own, I probably won't get too involved with that anyway.
I need to work on some stuff like the finer points of tweaking and tuning... I usually do the 'sounds best' route, but there are a few things that I'm sure I'm not fully aware of yet. I always take an opportunity to learn and figure stuff out though, so any tips and pointers I'll definitely appreciate it :)
swez on 02/7/2009 20:41:00
Well sir, there's a 30 year gap in our ages and experiences in life. Nothing we learn will go to waste. We're just a few bends in the river apart is all. (Ah, a mile or two apart) What you have learned so far is a good stepping stone to other things in the Communications field later. (If you want that) Communications techs make good money and the outlook for future employment is very good too.
Have been through many of the parts of the river you have yet to see and some are amazing wonders, while others are terrifying w/o a guide and a safety line.
You will learn the finer parts of anything you set your mind to. Fortunately, some of that is already been established as a guy in the Guard. They gave you the fundamentals, stretched your mind and body to point you may have never thought posssible and these will serve you well in life as a civilian later. For now, learn what you do best, find out how it all works and then grab it and run for all it's worth.
I've had a few other brass rings in life, worth hanging on to. I've also lost a few that could have been added, but dropped the ball or others I depended on did. That's life! A good quote to remember:
"If one falls, may it be on our faces. We may be dazed, confused and disoriented for a time, but when we get back to our feet, we are still pointed in the intended direction".
That's where the "buddy system" comes into play. Our true buddies will pick us up, dust us off, mend the injuries and carry us along until we can do it on our own steam again.
Can you resonate with that idea?
Swez
PS Yes, I'd be happy to lead you through the harder stuff with one request... When you get your wings, you show others how to fly. Is that a fair deal?
zanilth on 02/8/2009 09:09:19
Well, actually I now work full time for the Guard here, and unless things change that'll probably be my career field for awhile. Not to say that I won't look into a secondary field, for future use or a just in case situation.
I'm always game for helping others out. I might not know everything about the subject at hand (whatever that may be) but I do what I can to figure it out and give a helping hand. :)
swez on 02/8/2009 09:44:07
Yes, I can tell you have open mind, willing to learn and share ideas with others with ease. That's why I asked for your partnering with Sonde and other as you see fit.
Actually, your career may be better/more secure, right where you're at for a while. Until the economy settles down, working for the Guard may be a great place to ride out this difficult time.
Dave
MrBrownstone on 02/10/2009 22:50:58
I ain't gonna lie to ya, the best systems I've heard were tuned by ear.
Microphones have a way of being totally unable to hear a lot of phase issues, etc....whereas you monkeying around with controls can hear things because of how you get to balancing the sound.
Unless you are living in an RTA world, focus in the positioning of the speakers and getting a line of sight. After that, gain control matching is really more of a process.
ttocs on 02/10/2009 23:56:18
I have been installing on and off profesionally for almost 15 yrs now. In that time I can't tell you how many systems I built from a simple add on sub to a full blown "rock your socks" systems. I can how ever tell you how many times I tuned a system with something other then my ear, 1 TIME! I did a big system years ago with 4 large phoenix gold amps and 4 12" subs where we had the subs running off different amps and in different boxes and needed to make sure the subs were tuned properly but that was done properly with an osciliscope.
Its also funny as most of the poeple that use instruments to tune systems will often complete the tuning by listening to the system and making final adjustments to what sounds good to their ears.
swez on 02/11/2009 01:22:54
Agreed, for car audio, the ear method is usually a very good gage on gain setting. As long as the user knows what excess distortion sounds like, you'll get a pretty good ballpark setting.
Guys like Mr. B and ttocs have been in this game a long time and know exactly what targets to hit. As ttocs said, we can use a lot of fancy tools initially, but the bottom line is our own ears.
Swez
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