I drive a 2007 Mazda 3i. Current setup is factory cd player, with 4 sony xplod 6.5 4 ways in the doors, and a sony xplod 4/3 channel amp pushing them off of the built in line input.
Recently picked up a Kenwood 3011 (12" 400 RMS@ 4 ohm) and decided I wanted to up the kick to it. So, I have in the mail now a Kenwood 8104D (300 RMS @ 4 ohm, 500 RMS @ 2 ohm)
Now, here is my question/issue. I want to continue running the door speakers off of an amp since the factory cd player is quite weak. Aside from power issues, I'm kind of stumped as how to hook both amplifiers up. The Kenwood I have coming has line input, as does the sony Xplod I have...But I was thinking about downsizing the xplod, as it is a large amp and I was hoping to find something smaller. Either way it goes, I cannot find any kind of Line input splitter, or anything like that...Which leaves me with the option of using a LOC. Now, as far as that, the Scoche LOC has two outputs, a front channel and a rear. Do they get the same signal? (such as if I hook my sub up to the rear channel, will it get the same bass signal as the front speakers) or is it a slightly different signal?
So if anyone can help explain, and maybe give a few pointers, it would be greatly appreciated. Also an idea about an extra amp to run the door speakers. I was originally looking at a Boss 350, but I have heard some negative information and am keeping an open mind about other options. Thanks, and sorry for the long post.
Replies (23)
swez on 02/3/2009 17:17:21
Welcome to CK!
The post is not too long as you had a lot of key info to share. (That helps us a lot)
If what you have now is working, adding LOC's are not a good solution here. However, a "Y" splitter off the Sony's rear input RCA's would be a good option if that amp does not have RCA type, line level output jacks. Male extension RCA's are also needed to tie in your Kenwood sub amp. A pair of these should do the job:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=263-361
I see the Kenwood sub amp has a pair or pass-through preouts. You could just buy a pair of cables, take the rear channel RCA's off the Sony amp, run them to your Kenwood and then a short pair of male to male RCA's to feed the rear Sony amp channels that way.
Comments/questions?
Swez
zanilth on 02/3/2009 17:53:18
Hrm, plenty of information but I neglected to say that with my factory cd player, I currently have the speaker wires spliced and run to the line in on the sony amp...I don't have any RCA plugs.
I think the Kenwood has line out RCA jacks, I could run to the second amp from that...
swez on 02/3/2009 18:35:40
Okay, that still works out with some basic patch cords you can fabricate with minimal effort.
The Kenwood amp offers Line Level RCA In and Outputs options. It also has Speaker Level inputs as well: Have a look:
http://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/Amplifiers/KAC-8104D
Here, you can just use common speaker wire that is spliced from the rear input lines of your Sony amp and feed them to the Speaker Level inputs of your Kenwood amp. That will work, but you may have some gain adjusting to do on both amps to obtain the best results. #16 gage paired wire is all you need. (Easy Button please)
FYI: Speaker Line input circuiys are like onboard LOC's. They attenuate speaker level voltages, (6-12 volts) down to usable Line Level signals, (2-4 volts) for the amplifier to use as designed.
Some say Speaker Level taps are not quality, clarity matches. I disagree because what the amp sees after attenuation is the bottom line. Some amps have better designed attenation circuits, but they all work on the same principle. (There's more, but I'll leave it be for now)
Finally, your Kenwood amp has a turn on sensor from the Speaker Level Input stage. When it senses an audio signal, it turns the amp on automatically and no REMote feeder line is required. (Hit The Easy Button again)
Comments?
Swez
zanilth on 02/3/2009 18:43:44
So I would splice into the speaker out wires coming from the amp for the line input? (Could just attach them to the amp where the speaker wires are connected instead of splicing wires) or should I splice before they hook into the speaker level on the sony?
swez on 02/3/2009 20:54:43
Attach your new patch cables to the input side of your Sony amp and run them to the Speaker Level inputs of your Kenwood amp.
That would be 4 wires in all. Left and right rear lines or 2 pair is all.
DO NOT tap off the Sony speaker output lines. The signal here is way to high for your Kenwood amp to handle.
Got all that?
Swez
zanilth on 02/3/2009 20:55:58
Yep, got it :)
Thanks for the help.
swez on 02/3/2009 21:06:50
Cool and/or gravy!
Keep us posted as you go OK?
Swez
zanilth on 02/3/2009 23:26:41
Will do...I'm expecting the amp in the next few days, and will probably be grabbing another sub to bridge them down to 2 ohms, make use of the amp's 500 RMS at 2 ohm. :)
swez on 02/4/2009 12:56:55
You can do that if you wish, but the output levels are minimal with adding a 2nd sub in this case. (About +2.5 to 3.0 dB at best)
However, these subs are low cost at ~$50.00 a pop, so it's not a large expense if that's what you wish to do.
Swez
zanilth on 02/4/2009 21:27:05
So adding a second sub to push 500 watts for 2 ohm wouldn't really make a difference compared to the 300 at 4 ohm?
swez on 02/5/2009 00:16:53
That's right... subs/speakers are horribly inefficient at coverting music watts to Sound Pressure Levels. (Well under 10% eff.) These are the weakest link in the whole chain. Imagine this typical set of data points on a plot graph. (Logrithmic paper) This is a very efficient speaker model below:
10 watts = 99 dB
20 watts = 102 dB
40 watts = 105 dB
80 watts = 108 dB
160 watts = 111 dB
320 watts = 114 dB
640 watts = 117 dB
Not so hot right? As we double the RMS power to a speaker, we get a +3dB bump in loudness. That's barely enough to detect by human hearing at 6 feet away.
Class dismissed,
Swez
zanilth on 02/5/2009 00:54:32
Jeez, that sucks.
I would assume that adding a subwoofer would increase the sound/power, although it would seem double that wouldn't be the case as you are splitting the power... Thanks for the info :)
Just want the additional power to keep up with the amplified door speakers, and the xplod can't push all of it and sound good (plus it overheats with that much load on it :S )
swez on 02/5/2009 07:31:16
That's the physics and math side of acoustics.
What's the High Pass Filter set at on your Sony amp? Try 80-100 Hz and it will be louder and run cooler. Let the sub handle the low bass and it will balance out very nicely.
FYI: Be careful on that word assume... "Ass-U-Me" is the common result. Look how much trouble it caused Govenor Blogo. The more he touts his innocents, the more people think he's guilty.
Swez
zanilth on 02/5/2009 09:16:22
I don't remember specifically which model sony xplod it is, I picked it up at wal mart...But it doesn't push the sub really well, I think it is pushing 60 RMS or so. I listen to a lot of rock, and in music such as Atretu, I have to cut the high pass off to let the 6.5's in the door pick up some bass, and cut the volume up so I can hear the sub. In heavy bass songs, with the volume up decently I can hear the bass from the sub, but its not very much.
(Quick update:)
I kinda have a thing for everything matching and looking good, so after looking around a bit, I just purchased a Kenwood 8404 to replace the Sony Xplod. 50 x 4 @ 4ohm, which is what my door speakers are rated now. I plan on moving the location for the original amp (originally under the passenger seat) and splitting the two on the back of the back seat, with the sub in the middle. Like you said, I'll run one amp from the line input from the factory speakers, then the second amp from the line in as well (after splitting into those wires.) Already have a distribution block, so just gotta get the amps in and install.
I plan on doing the big 3 upgrade when I am doing this install, do you think that should cover it pretty well?
swez on 02/5/2009 13:44:49
Yep. that'll be peachy. You will need the Big 3 kit with the new sub amp installed. A #4 main wire, split to #8's will do the job for both of these amps. Just make sure you have the main fuse of 80A's at the battery.
If you have the space, try each amp under the front seats. They are well hidden this way and should run cool enough too. This also keeps your power line short and voltage dops are not an issue.
How old is your present battery and what is the CCA rating on it?
Swez
zanilth on 02/5/2009 14:25:37
Original battery still in the car, and I have no idea about the CCA rating. :S
There is room under my passenger seat for an amp, but not under my drivers seat...There is some kind of electrical box or something under there, I haven't actually taken the seat out and looked but that was an original idea I had for mounting location.
One final question... As far as door speakers, my last post we discussed them some, and you gave me an idea for some component speakers. Only issue with those is I don't have a mounting space for the tweeters. Looking at the Kenwood lineup of speakers, there are two options.....
http://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/Speakers/6''_x_8''_Speakers/KFC-P680C
and
http://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/Speakers/6''_x_8''_Speakers/KFC-C6882ie
Would either of those be a worthy upgrade to the sony xplod 6.5 4 ways I have in the doors now? My only concern about the first is the RMS rating is 40 watts, whereas the amp is 50 RMS... Would that be a possible issue, or should it be alright to handle?
swez on 02/5/2009 14:55:42
A tyical battery lasts 5-6 years in the south. As we move into the colder regions of the NE, MW and cold winters, the battery declines at a faster rate. (4 winters at best) What vehicle is this? You may be due for a new battery if the car/truck is 4-5 years old or more.
As for upgrades to better front speakers, let's put that aside for now and work on getting the best results possible with what you have now.
Hum, 6x8" are common to Ford, Mercury and Lincoln products. I
would look at 2-way speakers up front and maybe a matching pair in the rear, but later down the line. The 3,4 way speakers in this format are all compromises in one way or another. It depends on your taste in music and how accurate your tastes are for music. (General, loud, picky or audiophile)
Comments?
Swez
zanilth on 02/5/2009 15:13:01
2007 Mazda 3.... Later model in the year, and was built in march of 07...So battery isn't quite two years old.
swez on 02/5/2009 19:07:14
D-oh... I forgot to note that on the first post. Your battery should be good for a few more years, but it's likely to be 600 CCA or lower.
Hum, now we can add Mazda to the list of 6x8" speaker users. Mazda is part of the Ford line too and probably one of their best sellers too.
Dave
zanilth on 02/5/2009 20:05:11
Nah, you had it up there :)
Yep, uses 6x8" speakers. You knew that too, last time I posted a topic we discussed that lol. I asked about the difference in tone and quality of oval speakers vs round.
swez on 02/5/2009 21:14:25
Am glad you brought up the subject and was thinking as you move along, consider the 6x8" offerings from Infinity or JBL. They both have a wide range of drop in fits for 6x8" that are Component style or Coaxial and 2-ohm units. The advantage are:
1. High quality Components and crossovers
2. Light weight yet strong cone materials
3. Above average efficiencies
4. A modest 4-channel amp will drive 2-ohm speakers to a level you will benefit from
The tweeters are often a bit brighter and cut through the mids and bass very well, depending on the crossover and EQ settings available. The tweets can be attenuated from the crossovers as needed and if you have a decent EQ syetem in your HU or an add on like EQ/Line Driver, now the options list are vastly better than you might imagine, for a modest investment. (No hype here as I have done this myself and for others with very good results)
Pause on that train of thought and keep an open mind.
Swez
zanilth on 02/6/2009 01:19:15
I'll keep that in mind, as I was eventually going to be upgrading the speakers anyway and I have heard some good things about infinity and JBL. I do have a question though...
Whats the benefits of going with 2 ohm compared to 4 ohm? For example, when I was referring about bridging two subs to put the load down to 2 ohm for the amp, compared to the 4 ohm the single is at now. Is there really any benefit from dropping to 2 ohm?
swez on 02/6/2009 08:03:38
In some cases, there is a benefit if a modest amp and very efficient speakers are used. This is more notable in mids and highs due to proximity and our hearing is more sensitive in these ranges. If each speaker gets a +3dB bump, (times 2 or 4 speakers) you'll notice the difference immediately. If your hearing is good, 110 dB of SPL, (Sound Pressure Level) in this range will be very intense.
For bass, it's a different story. Subs are not so efficient and neither is our hearing in that low range, so it takes lots more power to get concert level SPL in a given vehicle. (+120 dB of SPL)
Am not trying to up sell you here. But more like showing you the differences between "Not too bad... to Wow, that kicks butt."
Just chew on it for now,
Swez
Recently picked up a Kenwood 3011 (12" 400 RMS@ 4 ohm) and decided I wanted to up the kick to it. So, I have in the mail now a Kenwood 8104D (300 RMS @ 4 ohm, 500 RMS @ 2 ohm)
Now, here is my question/issue. I want to continue running the door speakers off of an amp since the factory cd player is quite weak. Aside from power issues, I'm kind of stumped as how to hook both amplifiers up. The Kenwood I have coming has line input, as does the sony Xplod I have...But I was thinking about downsizing the xplod, as it is a large amp and I was hoping to find something smaller. Either way it goes, I cannot find any kind of Line input splitter, or anything like that...Which leaves me with the option of using a LOC. Now, as far as that, the Scoche LOC has two outputs, a front channel and a rear. Do they get the same signal? (such as if I hook my sub up to the rear channel, will it get the same bass signal as the front speakers) or is it a slightly different signal?
So if anyone can help explain, and maybe give a few pointers, it would be greatly appreciated. Also an idea about an extra amp to run the door speakers. I was originally looking at a Boss 350, but I have heard some negative information and am keeping an open mind about other options. Thanks, and sorry for the long post.
Replies (23)
swez on 02/3/2009 17:17:21
Welcome to CK!
The post is not too long as you had a lot of key info to share. (That helps us a lot)
If what you have now is working, adding LOC's are not a good solution here. However, a "Y" splitter off the Sony's rear input RCA's would be a good option if that amp does not have RCA type, line level output jacks. Male extension RCA's are also needed to tie in your Kenwood sub amp. A pair of these should do the job:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=263-361
I see the Kenwood sub amp has a pair or pass-through preouts. You could just buy a pair of cables, take the rear channel RCA's off the Sony amp, run them to your Kenwood and then a short pair of male to male RCA's to feed the rear Sony amp channels that way.
Comments/questions?
Swez
zanilth on 02/3/2009 17:53:18
Hrm, plenty of information but I neglected to say that with my factory cd player, I currently have the speaker wires spliced and run to the line in on the sony amp...I don't have any RCA plugs.
I think the Kenwood has line out RCA jacks, I could run to the second amp from that...
swez on 02/3/2009 18:35:40
Okay, that still works out with some basic patch cords you can fabricate with minimal effort.
The Kenwood amp offers Line Level RCA In and Outputs options. It also has Speaker Level inputs as well: Have a look:
http://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/Amplifiers/KAC-8104D
Here, you can just use common speaker wire that is spliced from the rear input lines of your Sony amp and feed them to the Speaker Level inputs of your Kenwood amp. That will work, but you may have some gain adjusting to do on both amps to obtain the best results. #16 gage paired wire is all you need. (Easy Button please)
FYI: Speaker Line input circuiys are like onboard LOC's. They attenuate speaker level voltages, (6-12 volts) down to usable Line Level signals, (2-4 volts) for the amplifier to use as designed.
Some say Speaker Level taps are not quality, clarity matches. I disagree because what the amp sees after attenuation is the bottom line. Some amps have better designed attenation circuits, but they all work on the same principle. (There's more, but I'll leave it be for now)
Finally, your Kenwood amp has a turn on sensor from the Speaker Level Input stage. When it senses an audio signal, it turns the amp on automatically and no REMote feeder line is required. (Hit The Easy Button again)
Comments?
Swez
zanilth on 02/3/2009 18:43:44
So I would splice into the speaker out wires coming from the amp for the line input? (Could just attach them to the amp where the speaker wires are connected instead of splicing wires) or should I splice before they hook into the speaker level on the sony?
swez on 02/3/2009 20:54:43
Attach your new patch cables to the input side of your Sony amp and run them to the Speaker Level inputs of your Kenwood amp.
That would be 4 wires in all. Left and right rear lines or 2 pair is all.
DO NOT tap off the Sony speaker output lines. The signal here is way to high for your Kenwood amp to handle.
Got all that?
Swez
zanilth on 02/3/2009 20:55:58
Yep, got it :)
Thanks for the help.
swez on 02/3/2009 21:06:50
Cool and/or gravy!
Keep us posted as you go OK?
Swez
zanilth on 02/3/2009 23:26:41
Will do...I'm expecting the amp in the next few days, and will probably be grabbing another sub to bridge them down to 2 ohms, make use of the amp's 500 RMS at 2 ohm. :)
swez on 02/4/2009 12:56:55
You can do that if you wish, but the output levels are minimal with adding a 2nd sub in this case. (About +2.5 to 3.0 dB at best)
However, these subs are low cost at ~$50.00 a pop, so it's not a large expense if that's what you wish to do.
Swez
zanilth on 02/4/2009 21:27:05
So adding a second sub to push 500 watts for 2 ohm wouldn't really make a difference compared to the 300 at 4 ohm?
swez on 02/5/2009 00:16:53
That's right... subs/speakers are horribly inefficient at coverting music watts to Sound Pressure Levels. (Well under 10% eff.) These are the weakest link in the whole chain. Imagine this typical set of data points on a plot graph. (Logrithmic paper) This is a very efficient speaker model below:
10 watts = 99 dB
20 watts = 102 dB
40 watts = 105 dB
80 watts = 108 dB
160 watts = 111 dB
320 watts = 114 dB
640 watts = 117 dB
Not so hot right? As we double the RMS power to a speaker, we get a +3dB bump in loudness. That's barely enough to detect by human hearing at 6 feet away.
Class dismissed,
Swez
zanilth on 02/5/2009 00:54:32
Jeez, that sucks.
I would assume that adding a subwoofer would increase the sound/power, although it would seem double that wouldn't be the case as you are splitting the power... Thanks for the info :)
Just want the additional power to keep up with the amplified door speakers, and the xplod can't push all of it and sound good (plus it overheats with that much load on it :S )
swez on 02/5/2009 07:31:16
That's the physics and math side of acoustics.
What's the High Pass Filter set at on your Sony amp? Try 80-100 Hz and it will be louder and run cooler. Let the sub handle the low bass and it will balance out very nicely.
FYI: Be careful on that word assume... "Ass-U-Me" is the common result. Look how much trouble it caused Govenor Blogo. The more he touts his innocents, the more people think he's guilty.
Swez
zanilth on 02/5/2009 09:16:22
I don't remember specifically which model sony xplod it is, I picked it up at wal mart...But it doesn't push the sub really well, I think it is pushing 60 RMS or so. I listen to a lot of rock, and in music such as Atretu, I have to cut the high pass off to let the 6.5's in the door pick up some bass, and cut the volume up so I can hear the sub. In heavy bass songs, with the volume up decently I can hear the bass from the sub, but its not very much.
(Quick update:)
I kinda have a thing for everything matching and looking good, so after looking around a bit, I just purchased a Kenwood 8404 to replace the Sony Xplod. 50 x 4 @ 4ohm, which is what my door speakers are rated now. I plan on moving the location for the original amp (originally under the passenger seat) and splitting the two on the back of the back seat, with the sub in the middle. Like you said, I'll run one amp from the line input from the factory speakers, then the second amp from the line in as well (after splitting into those wires.) Already have a distribution block, so just gotta get the amps in and install.
I plan on doing the big 3 upgrade when I am doing this install, do you think that should cover it pretty well?
swez on 02/5/2009 13:44:49
Yep. that'll be peachy. You will need the Big 3 kit with the new sub amp installed. A #4 main wire, split to #8's will do the job for both of these amps. Just make sure you have the main fuse of 80A's at the battery.
If you have the space, try each amp under the front seats. They are well hidden this way and should run cool enough too. This also keeps your power line short and voltage dops are not an issue.
How old is your present battery and what is the CCA rating on it?
Swez
zanilth on 02/5/2009 14:25:37
Original battery still in the car, and I have no idea about the CCA rating. :S
There is room under my passenger seat for an amp, but not under my drivers seat...There is some kind of electrical box or something under there, I haven't actually taken the seat out and looked but that was an original idea I had for mounting location.
One final question... As far as door speakers, my last post we discussed them some, and you gave me an idea for some component speakers. Only issue with those is I don't have a mounting space for the tweeters. Looking at the Kenwood lineup of speakers, there are two options.....
http://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/Speakers/6''_x_8''_Speakers/KFC-P680C
and
http://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/Speakers/6''_x_8''_Speakers/KFC-C6882ie
Would either of those be a worthy upgrade to the sony xplod 6.5 4 ways I have in the doors now? My only concern about the first is the RMS rating is 40 watts, whereas the amp is 50 RMS... Would that be a possible issue, or should it be alright to handle?
swez on 02/5/2009 14:55:42
A tyical battery lasts 5-6 years in the south. As we move into the colder regions of the NE, MW and cold winters, the battery declines at a faster rate. (4 winters at best) What vehicle is this? You may be due for a new battery if the car/truck is 4-5 years old or more.
As for upgrades to better front speakers, let's put that aside for now and work on getting the best results possible with what you have now.
Hum, 6x8" are common to Ford, Mercury and Lincoln products. I
would look at 2-way speakers up front and maybe a matching pair in the rear, but later down the line. The 3,4 way speakers in this format are all compromises in one way or another. It depends on your taste in music and how accurate your tastes are for music. (General, loud, picky or audiophile)
Comments?
Swez
zanilth on 02/5/2009 15:13:01
2007 Mazda 3.... Later model in the year, and was built in march of 07...So battery isn't quite two years old.
swez on 02/5/2009 19:07:14
D-oh... I forgot to note that on the first post. Your battery should be good for a few more years, but it's likely to be 600 CCA or lower.
Hum, now we can add Mazda to the list of 6x8" speaker users. Mazda is part of the Ford line too and probably one of their best sellers too.
Dave
zanilth on 02/5/2009 20:05:11
Nah, you had it up there :)
Yep, uses 6x8" speakers. You knew that too, last time I posted a topic we discussed that lol. I asked about the difference in tone and quality of oval speakers vs round.
swez on 02/5/2009 21:14:25
Am glad you brought up the subject and was thinking as you move along, consider the 6x8" offerings from Infinity or JBL. They both have a wide range of drop in fits for 6x8" that are Component style or Coaxial and 2-ohm units. The advantage are:
1. High quality Components and crossovers
2. Light weight yet strong cone materials
3. Above average efficiencies
4. A modest 4-channel amp will drive 2-ohm speakers to a level you will benefit from
The tweeters are often a bit brighter and cut through the mids and bass very well, depending on the crossover and EQ settings available. The tweets can be attenuated from the crossovers as needed and if you have a decent EQ syetem in your HU or an add on like EQ/Line Driver, now the options list are vastly better than you might imagine, for a modest investment. (No hype here as I have done this myself and for others with very good results)
Pause on that train of thought and keep an open mind.
Swez
zanilth on 02/6/2009 01:19:15
I'll keep that in mind, as I was eventually going to be upgrading the speakers anyway and I have heard some good things about infinity and JBL. I do have a question though...
Whats the benefits of going with 2 ohm compared to 4 ohm? For example, when I was referring about bridging two subs to put the load down to 2 ohm for the amp, compared to the 4 ohm the single is at now. Is there really any benefit from dropping to 2 ohm?
swez on 02/6/2009 08:03:38
In some cases, there is a benefit if a modest amp and very efficient speakers are used. This is more notable in mids and highs due to proximity and our hearing is more sensitive in these ranges. If each speaker gets a +3dB bump, (times 2 or 4 speakers) you'll notice the difference immediately. If your hearing is good, 110 dB of SPL, (Sound Pressure Level) in this range will be very intense.
For bass, it's a different story. Subs are not so efficient and neither is our hearing in that low range, so it takes lots more power to get concert level SPL in a given vehicle. (+120 dB of SPL)
Am not trying to up sell you here. But more like showing you the differences between "Not too bad... to Wow, that kicks butt."
Just chew on it for now,
Swez
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