Hello all.
I have an Orion HCCA 12.2 Subwoofer and a Orion HCCA D 5000 amplifier. The sub is rated at 2000 rms power handling and the amp is rated at 2500 rms max output.
I really just would like to know if putting it in a ported enclosure (to manufacturers specifications) is more prone to blowing the subwoofer vs a sealed enclosure.
Is this to much power for the sub? I was reading another posting on here and someone said its better to give the sub more power than not enough power to prevent clipping. That's the last thing I want to do.
Thank you.
Ricky
Replies (42)
Orion_HCCA on 12/31/2008 02:28:21
Oh the year and model of my car:
2001 Acura CL Type S
Thanks.
swez on 12/31/2008 08:16:37
Wow, that's one sick looking sub all right. The specs can be found here to answer your questions: (5,000 watts peak, short duration)
http://www.orioncaraudio.com/Products/Products.aspx?ProductID=512
http://www.orioncaraudio.com/Support/Manuals/Subwoofers/HCCA/Orion%20HCCA%20Subs%202007.pdf
Manual, enclosure details for ported on page 24.
This is an SPL Compitition sub.
Swez
ttocs on 12/31/2008 09:22:21
I never have paid attention to the power ratings of speakers in the decade that I installed. Give it as much power as you can, and keep it clean and you will be fine.
Victor is our box guru and can probably help you out but he is in india and answers most questions while we are sleepin.
swez on 12/31/2008 13:33:07
Don't forget Drew... newB, he's done some real nice work on layouts and such.
Orion's general ported specs for this 12" sub are:
Internal dimensions: 2.0 cf box
Port: 4.5" x 4.5" sq and 15" long (Includes port and sub displacements)
PTF: 38 Hz.
This is a pretty small enclosure for SPL use mainly. When I see a 4" voice coil, 33mm X-max, (One way) and a compact enclosure, the sub is designed for brute SPL use.
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 12/31/2008 17:45:09
Thank you Swez. Since you said this enclosure seems a bit small, would you recommend I have a larger enclosure made to achieve better SPL?
I have talked to a few other guys that have owned this subwoofer and they have given it more air space, but I am afraid to go away from Orion specifications because I don't want to blow the subwoofer (knocks on wood)
What do you think Swez? Stick to manufacturers specs? Do you think it will handle 2500 rms no problem in the enclosure referenced here, slot ported?
Thanks
Ricky
swez on 12/31/2008 18:35:41
It really depends on your targeted lows. Most vehicles resonate the most SPL in the 55-70 Hz. range. If a guy wants lots of deep lows, they often trade power handling and use a larger box and port design.
You can get more deep lows when tuned at say 36 Hz., but give up a few dB of SPL too. There's no free lunch and each box design has pros and cons. The Fs is 36 Hz. (Free Air Resonance) When porting, we want to stay above Fs.
I would suggest starting your first box as spec'd by Orion. If you wish to make another one later, shoot Orion Tech Service an e-mail and ask what they suggest as an alternate for your next box design. (Larger and lower PTF)
Finally, this 4" coil and motor system are designed very well for heat dissapation. (5,000 watts peak, 1,500+ RMS) The issue in a larger box is exceeding X-max parameters and ripping the coil/spider junction apart. Yes, this sub comes with field replacement parts, but that kit won't be cheap. Like ttocs said, more clean power from the amp is far better for a sub than heavily clipped signals from a weaker amp. (Distortion does not kill the sub, but heat build up will)
Got all that?
Swez
PS Note that Orion recommends 1" thick MDF for panels and front baffle. For Competition SPL apps, that makes perfect sense at 140 + dB's. One full 4' x 8' sheet will do the job and materials left over.
Orion_HCCA on 12/31/2008 18:54:34
Wow. That is quite a bit of information, thanks. So, will I be o.k with all that power in their recommended enclosure? 2500 RMS in 2 cubes?
&
Is it true that the sub will handle power better if I go sealed? How would a sealed enclosure sound with that much power?
Thanks for your time.
swez on 12/31/2008 20:39:00
Sure... like teaching willing students and it's a pleasure to see you back at CK again.
Sealed boxes promote a good deal of internal back pressure to the rear of the woofer cone. This restricts cone excursion to some degree, but often get higher power handling too. (So what?) This is often the design choice for SQ/SQL apps. The smaller the enclosure, the more power the sub can take. However, the deep lows roll off much faster and not as strong as a well designed por ted box.
Yes, start with the 2.0 cf ported design as mentioned before. If you throw too much low bass energy in, "cone whop" will appear and that's a sign to dial back on the bass energy.
Try not to over-think the process for now. You have a basic formula to get things in the ball park. If a change is warranted later, so be it.
Swez
Victor on 01/1/2009 03:36:13
Wish you all a very happy new year ..!
That sub-amp pair, makes a mean bass machine...
If you wanna have that sub in a ported enclosure
1 - Protect it with a Subsonic filter set at the port tuning frequency
2 - Set the gains with a DMM and aim for 45volts.
3 - 2 cu.ft enclosure tuned at 38Hz
If you want that sub in a sealed enclosure.
1 - You can give it the full 2500wrms, and aim for a gain setting of 50volts with the DMM...
2 - 1.5 cu.ft internal volume for the sealed enclosure.
I would personally put that sub in a sealed enclosure and give it some real clean power as that extra 500wrms provides some very good head room.
In theory and even in real time, what swez said stands true as an inherited property of a sealed enclosure
"""However, the deep lows roll off much faster and not as strong as a well designed por ted box. """
but at 2500wrms ... all deep lows are heard just too well and you would feel the bass too.. thats a lot of power, even to make a 25Hz tone audible, even if its in a sealed enclosure....
at 2500wrms that sub will POUND .... i would not sacrifice a flat response over the bass spectrum with the sealed enclosure to gain a few db's at the tuning frequency of the ported system.
heres an article on gain setting with the help of a DMM....
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t57
about the enclosure, don't go bigger than 2 cu.ft ported if you want to power that sub with 2000 - 2500 wrms .....
with the sealed try not to go bigger than 1.5 cu.ft , its gonna be loud, clean and crisp, with amazingly responsive transients too..
hope this helps...
Victor...
Orion_HCCA on 01/7/2009 01:50:54
Excuse me while I pick up my jaw =0
You two guys are some audio gods.
I had a feeling when I joined this website it wouldn't be like others, in terms of receiving such knowledgeable suggestions.
I have one last issue to address for the time being, as I am still awaiting one final part for my install. I have my sub and my amp already of course, and also a Kinetik HC1400 battery to back up my power along with a Stinger 200 amp isolator ftw. =)
Whats your take on the Kinetik line of batteries, will this one do the job?
Ok I lied I have two issues ;-)
Second thing is, in regards to all that bass going through the ported box, heres the reason why I was so paranoid about it and asking you guys if thats to much power for the enclosure etc.
I previously had an Orion H2 12.2 being pushed by that same amp at 2 ohms (1600 rms), which I ended up frying (both the amp and the sub) Anyway, the enclosure a shop made for this H2 was a T Line, which I am sure you both know exactly what that is. The person who made it put it in 4.0 cubes and here is an exact drawing of it that he made:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/babyfaceplayboy/200324857477_0_0.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/babyfaceplayboy/200324160773_0_0.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/babyfaceplayboy/200324135557_0_0.jpg
I have been told that this enclosure is garbage and that I gave my sub to much power in it, which resulted in my voice coils frying. Does that sound right? I was relatively happy with the bass it produced (for most songs, hard and clean bass) although on some songs, the bass didn't hit at all, it sucked. This is the only reason why I am really REALLY leaning towards a sealed box. Btw, I listen to mainly rap and R & B.
Victor, if I choose ported, do I run a risk of not pounding every single bass note? Cause I know with sealed I will HIT EVERY note right??
Lastly, comparing this box to the box I will have made for my HCCA (to specs) should I have anything to worry about? They are two completely different things I have been told correct? A T Line and a well designed ported box??
Thanks fellas, your the best. =)
Orion_HCCA on 01/7/2009 01:58:52
Oops. Not 12.2, but a 12.4. Impossible to run a dual 2 ohm sub at two ohms if I am not mistaking so yeah.
Victor on 01/7/2009 05:34:34
1 - Kinetik does make good storage devices. Which one would do the job depends on a few things.
2 - What battery/ies do you have at the moment ?
3 - Alternator specs ?
4 - Have you done the Big 3 upgrade ?
5 - What is the total current draw of the Sub amp + Mids/highs amp ?
6 - The stinger isolator is a good unit, although it is not a necessity, it sure will be a good asset for the charging system.
----------------------------------------------------------
About that so called T-line enclosure suggested ... He just helped you dig a grave for your sub......
----------------------------------------------------------
""Victor, if I choose ported, do I run a risk of not pounding every single bass note? Cause I know with sealed I will HIT EVERY note right??""
Well everything below the tuning frequency of the enclosure will roll off at 24 dB per octave.... Ported will exhibit reduced mechanical power handling too.
The EBP of this driver is 62.66 .... driver with EBP below 50 are meant for sealed enclosures, between 50 and 90 would be flexible for various enclosure types, and above 90 would be ideally suited in a ported enclosure..
Since this driver has an EBP leaning more towards the sealed type, I would suggest a sealed enclosure for this sub.
Sealed enclosures exhibit a 12db roll off. A sealed enclosure will help the sub withstand a lot of power abuse as compared to the ported enclosure.
Put that sub in a 1.5cuft (internal) sealed enclosure, and you'll be a happy boomer...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
a well made 1.5cu.ft sealed enclosure + well tuned gains + properly tuned mids and highs + a stable power supply + sound damping ( dont ignore this part, sound damping your car can itself give you a 3db rise in SPL, and get rid of all those annoying rattles and the exterior noise too )
if you've done all this.. you surely have nothing to worry about ....
Victor...
Orion_HCCA on 01/8/2009 03:11:21
1 - Kinetik does make good storage devices. Which one would do the job depends on a few things.
2 - What battery/ies do you have at the moment ?
Funny that you ask Victor because I my stock Interstate battery up front just took a dump on me earlier this evening. LOL.
& of course I have the Kinetik HC1400, which was originally meant for my trunk but now I am considering putting it up front and just buying a second one. What do you suggest?
3 - Alternator specs ?
120 amp stock
4 - Have you done the Big 3 upgrade ?
No, but I have heard of it, I will have the shop guys to do it for me.
5 - What is the total current draw of the Sub amp + Mids/highs amp ?
I have factory highs, mids and tweets, they are all Bose components which dont sound to bad, but I dont know how much they draw. Same for the sub and amp, I have no idea. I know I know I will have to much bass but Im so on a budget, I just cant do it all at once.
6 - The stinger isolator is a good unit, although it is not a necessity, it sure will be a good asset for the charging system.
Sweet. Yeah I was told I should have it to prevent primary battery discharge and also in the event that one battery takes a dump, it wont leach off the other one and leave me stranded. Did I just say the same thing twice but word it differently? LOL.
Plus, the folks over at Kinetik told me if I have two of their matching batteries in the car, I don't really need an isolator. Bah! I already bought it, but they also said its not good to mix two different battery technologies. I guess.
I was seriously leaning towards a ported enclosure before I ran into this forum, but now I know I am going to do sealed. Thanks. =)
Victor on 01/8/2009 03:40:16
120 amp ALT+ ( 0/1 awg )BIG 3 + 2 ( HC1400 ) batteries, should give you a considerably stable, power supply.
Don't forget the Sound damping part . ( It is a foundation to building any High end SQ / SPL system )
Build the enclosure with 3/4" MDF and use 1" for the front baffle. Glue well, and pre drill to use self taping screws. Use silicon to seal all joints internally.
I have a feeling that your bass engine is tooo strong for the rest of your audio system, some day in future once you are satisfied with tonnes and tonnes of bass, you would surely need to upgrade your speakers and amplify them well to balance with the Bass engine...
Keep us updated on this project.
Have fun..
Victor...
Orion_HCCA on 01/19/2009 18:26:23
Hey guys how goes it? =0
It's been quite a journey to say the least. Deciding on what kind of enclosure I should put this monster in has been a tough decision. Ugh, I put to much thought into it, but I have finally decided. After going to literally 8 audio shops, one guy almost had me convinced on ported, but I could just not sacrifice hearing a song I love with no bass in it.
So...
I am having a 1.5 CF sealed enclosure built as I type this. It will have a 1.5" inch top baffle (hope that's not overkill) and I hope to have it all installed this week. I ll let you guys know how it hits. Thanks for all your help.
Ricky
swez on 01/19/2009 19:43:46
Good call on this one Ricky. Sealed subs tend to sound smoother and more balanced for everyday music. After the break in period, they will get low and with all that power at your disposal, it can will be loud when you so desire.
The 1.5" baffle panel is really needed to support such a heavy sub. Your fabricator can even route out a recess for a nice, flush fit. You may want to look for a metal grill cover to protect the sub from stupid finger pokes to the dust cap and such. I don't know why, but some kids just have to poke things like this and ruin the looks.
How did you arrive at 1.5 ft^3 sealed? The specs recommend 1.35 ft^3 as the upper limit sealed. Internally, when the sub displacement is factored in, (0.3 ft^3) the end result will be ~1.2 ft^3. (Close enough for most audiophiles)
In all, I think you're gonna love the sound of this bass engine, if you can feed the amp enough power to drive it to full potential. This is a Competition Class Bass Engine!
Cheers,
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 01/21/2009 16:46:19
LOL @ I don't know why, but some kids just have to poke things like this and ruin the looks.
Ya, dumb kids. LOL.
1.5 cubes came from Victor if I am not mistaking. Is that to much airspace? This one guy at this one shop said the difference between 1.35 and 1.5 is so minuscule, it wouldn't even affect it to the point where its noticeable. Oh crap, I'm afraid now. Are these specs going to adversely affect my bass? =(
How long of a break in period should I give it Swez? Exactly please, hours wise and power wise?
Thanks
Ricky
swez on 01/21/2009 16:57:49
Relax Ricky,
Your well within the limits the sub maker recommends. (Enclosure wise)
Yeah, kids seem to like poking dents in the voice coil caps. I don't know why, but they do it at the Big Box stores all the time. LOL
Break in time depends on the power you feed the sub and how low the signals go. (8-10 hours at 50-80% power is usually enough) You'll know when the sub is broken in. The low bass will get stronger in a matter of a day or two. If you are a cautious type, 12 hours tops @ 50% power)
Don't sweat it, just enjoy it,
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 01/23/2009 13:47:12
LOL. Man I just realized I'm such a worry Willy from the way you talk to me all the time, seems like I am always flipping out over something tiny. HA HA. I ll take a chill pill man.
Ya I remember the first time I owned some Orion's, they were the XTR Pro 12's. I thought Orion sucked a$% when I got them, but then they broke in and I was impressed. After that, I loved Orion forever.
I'm supposed to have my stuff installed tomorrow so I ll keep you guys posted.
Thanks Swez.
Later.
Ricky
Victor on 01/23/2009 14:49:14
Let me put it this way ..
Manufacturers recommended air space - 0.9 cuft (min) - 1.35 cu.ft (max)
1.5 cu.ft internal enclosure
0.3 cu.ft sub-displacement.
------------------------------------
1.2 cu.ft effective volume.
Since you are powering this sub with some extra bit, I would not recommend building the 1.35 cuft... would not harm the sub ... but the bass would be a wee-bit sloppy. With 1.2 cu.ft the bass would be tight and crisp.
Victor.
PS: about a break in period for the sub... I have observed that subs with higher sensitivity break in faster and at lower power too...
swez on 01/23/2009 15:39:54
As Victor says, at high power, your sub may get a little sloppy/floppy or boomy in a larger box. If you note that after the break in time is over, you can easily add a few blocks of 2 x 4's into the box to shrink the internal airspace the woofer sees.
Tech Tip: 10" L x 1.5" T x 3.5" W = 0.03 cf
It may take some experimentation to figure out how many filler boards are right for your new box. I'd say 4 boards at minimum, (0.12 cf filler) and/or perhaps 2 more as needed. But don't worry about it until evidence says otherwise. We can cross that bridge if needed later.
We know the tricks & fixes for typical mistakes that crop up. Most of the time, they are very simple, cheap and easy button fixes. GRIN
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 01/23/2009 18:47:31
O.k guys I took these numbers from the Orion website.
14x14x14 = 2744 divided by 1728 = 1.5 cubic feet. Is that correct?
By telling my installer to build it at 1.5 cubes, did I go wrong? He should know this means internal right?
Sorry guys, but you put me back on the worry side. I am taking algebra in college right now so forgive me for being a bit lost on the equations here. Also, I wanted this enclosure to be built to the T, flawlessly so I can't help being a worry Willy again.
Thanks
Ricky
swez on 01/23/2009 20:25:29
Dear Willy the Worrier, SMILE
You don't have to worry about the box specs as I just remembered that you will have a 1.5" baffle panel to mount the sub. That will shrink the internals of the box to a point all should be fine. Did you not say the other panels will be 1" MDF as well? If that is the case, you should be just in the pocket.
As I said before, if you do note sloppy bass after the sub breaks in, it's easy to add a few spacer blocks to shrink the box as needed. (Piece of cake)
Some Fatherly Advice: (I'm 53 and still make dumb mistakes)
Ricky, life is all about adjusting to change and moments of uncertainly. We all have them and the older we get, the more we learn to go with them in life and learn as needed. True understanding, learning comes from making mistakes! Better still, learn from others mistakes so we don't have to learn lessons the hard way.
Not knowing our options and not getting good info from those who have been there before, failed and then learned and got it the next time around. Failure is not final! It's part of the learning curve everyone has to work out in life. Besides, there's a solid support team here at CK and it's all free and not just limited to car audio.
Carry on and let the process take its natural path... success! CLAP
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 01/25/2009 04:05:01
Hey guys. I just came home playing my subwoofer at only 1/4 of the gain up (tuned by the shop) and I noticed when I went up on my bass remote, the woofer stopped playing.
I called the shop and he told me that this woofer is over rated and I was clipping it, so I should stop turning the bass knob up. Well, my subwoofer is now fried. I played it all the way home (not touching the bass knob) and after about an hour of play, I opened my trunk to see smoke and I knew my sub was fried . =( I am extremely disappointed guys. I opened the trunk and noticed my subsonic filter was off.
Can you possibly explain to me what went wrong and maybe why this happened, because now I am just straight up giving up on Orion, this my second nightmare with the equipment.
Its in a sealed box built to specifications and the battery in the trunk and battery isolator up front etc.
I don't know what happened.
Thanks guys, I appreciate your time.
Ricky
swez on 01/25/2009 09:32:41
Ricky,
Is the sub still under warranty?
This is very hard to diagnose w/o a post-mortum and taking the sub apart to figure out what went wrong.
The smoke indicates excess heat may have built up in the VC's and melted the wire's insulation. It could be too much power, a blocked cooling vent or just a badly wound coil set.
Sealed boxes do not require a subsonic filter. If you had a ported box and the filter was off, it's usually a mechanical failure like the spider suspension rips or separated from the coil bobbin. The sub would still work, but sound terrible.
Finally, many SPL Competition subs have field/user replacement kits. Yours may be one of them. These kits include the cone, spider, coil and surrounds. I would not recommend you trying to do the repair. This takes experienced hands to do. Yes, this one has that option.
I would suggest you contact the seller where you obtained the sub and ask for a warranty replacement &/or return to the Mfg for reconing. You may have a factory defect they have seen before and with minimal expense, they'll exchange the damaged one for a another woofer.
Swez
PS Sorry to hear you had this happen on the first day. But understand this does happen and it's wise to allow the sub several hours to break in before dialing up the power.
swez on 01/25/2009 09:50:12
Was looking at the amplifer specs and it states 2500 watts RMS @ 1 ohm. That sub is rated at 2000 RMS.
Once a sub has broken in properly, it will usually handle the extra wattage. But before the sub breaks in, it's stiff and X-max is limited until all the moving parts loosen up. That may have contributed to the failure... TOO MUCH POWER before the sub was fully broken in.
As I see it from your words, you went too far, too soon and fried the sub OR, the sub is a factory defect and just failed. That amp has a lot of power for a single 12" woofer.
You may want to rethink the new sub and go back to the HCCA-12.4 for this install. That will cut the RMS power to the sub, but will still be plenty strong. (1600 RMS is plenty of power for a single sub)
If you stick with the HCCA-12.2, dial back on the amp gain and limit bass boost to protect your investment.
Comments/questions?
Swez
Victor on 01/25/2009 10:29:07
This is for the 2nd time that the sub gave up on u....
was it the same amp that you used with both the subs that fried ????
Orion_HCCA on 01/25/2009 11:49:46
No. This was a brand new amp sent directly from DEI (Orion) and actually it was the H2 that fried the first time.
Thank you.
Ricky
P.S Swez.
1. So you don't smell foul play as for the subsonic filter being off?
2. Since my amp fried my sub, chances are my amp is bad too now right?
Thanks again.
Orion_HCCA on 01/25/2009 12:59:25
Update guys:
I just got in my car and the sub plays now but I know for sure at least one of my voice coils is fried because I hear that weird rattling sound when I put my ear next to it.
Also, when I turn my music up around past 10, then my amp shuts down.
Is the amp bad? What about my woofer? I'm so lost. =(
Thank you.
Ricky
Victor on 01/25/2009 13:40:24
"""when I turn my music up around past 10, then my amp shuts down. """"
most likely your installer did not set the gains correctly.... and distortion may have fried the sub....
This is one sturdy sub.... and takes a whole lot of power to fry it... only thing that cud do this wud be distortion....
If this sub is under warranty , try contacting the manufacturer for a replacement... most likely they would deny cause they are well aware of the rock solid built of this sub, and can easily make out foul play at installing...
this sub has not fried cause of mechanical failure, it is because of a clipped wave of high amplitude...
can you take pictures of your current setup,
enclosure, sub, amp settings, and also note the hu settings along with the bass control knob setting.
I am wanting to believe that what went wrong was not at the sub or the enclosure level it is most likely at the amplifier level...
swez on 01/25/2009 17:54:53
I don't sense foul play here so much as maybe the installer could have been a bit more prudent when gain setting this very strong amp. A bench test will tell if the amp was damaged too. (Hopefully not)
Most Competition amps have good short circuit protection. In this case, it seems one coil is fried for sure. Interesting to note the sub worked at all today. I would recommend pulling the fuse on the sub amp so it is not damaged any further until your installer has a good look at things.
In a sealed box, the ss filter is NOT an issue. You cannot throw that one at them. It was not a factor here.
Since this is the 2nd time around, installer/operator error should be considered as much of the problem. This rig is very robust, but it ain't bullet proof.
If ya want to spread the blame around, the installer did not "abuse proof" his install well enough. He loaded the gun, but who shot their own foot? (Own it, learn from it and do not repeat this one again okay?)
Not meaning to dis ya on this at all. Just learn from it, figure out what the repair options are and be more prudent in the future. It's expensive to make such mistakes. COFFEE
FYI: This is what keeps my bother busy on service calls. He'll set up a system, install limiters and run a heavy load test and note all presets. If he gets a hostile callback from the club owner, he takes out his call notes, looks at the setting and if they have been altered, bingo...
"Here's the reason(s) this XYZ product(s) failures!!! Your guys in the DJ booth created a large expense that did not have to be. Shall I install a tamper-proof door to the rack and give you the only keys?"
Sorry to hear your sub failed on day one. A Mfg's defect is remotely possible, but more likely an installer/user issue here. SAD I think Victor's summary/diagnosis is pretty much spot on. Excessive clipping is very hard on even the most robust of subs and speakers.
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 01/26/2009 00:34:15
Victor:
The sub is not under warranty, unfortunately. Orion clearly states in their owners manual "sold as is, no warranty" So like Swez already mentioned earlier, I will have to get a re cone kit. I will try to get those pictures to you a.s.a.p and thanks for your concern. =)
Swez:
Those analogies you used were very helpful, thanks. I did dig my own grave, he just built me the casket. Either way, I'm f*#(@! because the re cone kit will run me $100 bucks. I have a lot of respect for individuals like yourself, so please believe me when I say, I know you are not trying to diss me at all. Even if you were, I would not talk back to someone who is older than I am. That is plain out bad mannered and would show an enormous lack of immaturity if I did, for I am not that way.
You are only trying to pass on useful knowledge, of which you have acquired over the years, and I am more than grateful for that.
I would be lying if I said I don't feel like I have bugged the crap out of you two guys. Thanks again, and I ll give you guys an outcome of my amplifier on Tuesday when I return to the shop.
Ricky
swez on 01/26/2009 01:37:50
Well said Ricky! CLAP
I have a lot of respect for a guy who takes responsibility, admit an error, own the outcome and move forward with a lesson learned. Bravo!
We don't dis others or their rigs here. We try to provide objective and accurate info as best we can. It's a joy to work with a guy like you!
Bugged us? Heck no, we are here to assist others the best we can and know how. It's good to have some younger blood on the board that are willing to learn, try new things and grow. If we didn't enjoy it, we would not be here.
Yeah, I feel bummed out by your situation to be sure. SAD If you knew some of my own personal blunders from my younger days, you'd know I really do understand. This is a cheap one in contrast to the stakes we face as we get older.
My Dad used to say... "Son, make all your dumb choices now because when you get older, the ante goes up considerably". He was soooo right.
Keep us posted okay?
Dave
PS As our pastor says, "Failure is NOT final, unless we 'choose' to quit growing". Do you think he has a good point? I sure do!
Orion_HCCA on 02/3/2009 18:36:41
Hey guys I'm still here and I am dropping by to just let you guys know that. I have been bummed out lately about the whole thing, but I must move forward. I'm o.k on the amplifier as I requested an RMA # from the place where I got it, so its under warranty until March 09. Yay!! =)
As for the subwoofer, I have no choice but to fork out the $100 for the re cone kit.
Current status:
I referred my cousin to the shop that did my install and he had some work done. Needless to say he was very content with the service. Since he replaced his old amp with a new one, he kicked me down his JL Audio E1400D monblock amp. Yay again! So, I am at the shop now with an Orion H2 12.2 that I had laying around (which I don't think I ever mentioned to you guys) and going to have it installed as a temporary fix.
Let you guys know how it sounds!
P.S thanks for letting me off the hook and saying I am not bugging you Swez. You rock dude!
Later
=0
swez on 02/3/2009 20:35:06
It's working out pretty well in all for now and that's a good thing.
Bugging us? Not one whit. We are here to help those who are willing to learn and enjoy the process.
For now, you ca bide your time as is and am glad to hear your Orion amp was covered under warranty. Were you able to determine in the amp went kaput?
One step at a time,
Dave
Orion_HCCA on 02/4/2009 17:37:48
Wow. JL Audio + Orion = BOOM BOOM BOOM =)
No, really though guys, it sounds pretty clean. I have the woofer set up in that 4 cubic foot box and since I am only feeding it 270 RMS @ 4 ohms (according to JL specs). I think I have properly utilized the concept of:
Bigger box to compensate for less power = more output, hence the ported box design is working to my advantage in this particular case.
Would you agree guys?
I hope so, otherwise, I may be in trouble. =0
Dave yes, Dave, I was wondering what Swez stood for. =)
So yeah, the cause of death is still unknown, the autopsy has yet to be revealed once I send the amp in. I still feel pretty strongly it was just cause I kept trying to play a dead sub, don't you guys think?
Thanks
Ricky
swez on 02/4/2009 18:20:51
Hi Ricky,
Yes, TL alignments are normally used for good lows in low powered sub systems we see in Home Theater apps. You get nice, deep lows at the price of a large box and lower power handling of a given woofer. It's not the best alignment for car audio or your specific sub. (Too big, low power)
"Swez" is part of the family name. Am a twin and my brothers' wife calls us the fishing Swez clan. Mom called my Dad "Swez" too... when she was ticked off at D.O.D. hehe It's a hybrid of the original Chec name of my granfather... An immagrant from Slovokia, some 96 years ago. (Yep, he did the Ellis Island thing in 1903)
Svezene (Svez-en-e) Translated, it means "A kind man with a big heart and broad shoulders". (Oddly, it fits apptly, except for a few bad days or when somebody poops in my loafers) LOL
When you get your post-mortum results, I would bet the inner voice coil wires got too hot, shorted out and the sub seized until the coils cooled for a while. The outer coils remained reasonably cool and not damaged. The inner coils fried pretty good as they could not cool rapidly enough.
The expansion of the inner coil set due to thermal heating seized the coils until cool. Once they cooled, they shrunk enough to get some sound, but ony the outer coil would operate.
Quote: "Bigger box to compensate for less power = more output, hence the ported box design is working to my advantage in this particular case. " Yes, that's pretty much how it works. When we add "cabin gain" or "transfer affects" for mobile sound, we get a nice bump in SPL around 50-75 Hz. (+10 to +15dB, depending on the vehicle.
Hopefully, the amp did not fry in the process,
Dave
swez on 02/4/2009 18:21:37
Time to start a new post as this one has run its course OK?
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 02/6/2009 00:02:36
Of course that's o.k. Dave. Thank you again for all your help. =)
swez on 02/6/2009 00:16:44
You bet Ricky! It's great working with a willing student!
Dave SMILE
solowinglagi on 03/18/2009 17:40:15
solowinglagi on 03/18/2009 17:59:56
I'm new to this site, and just wanted to post here to kinda let you know how my first experience with the Orion HCCa subs went. These things are BEASTS!
I have two 15 inch Orion HCCA dvc 4 ohm subs. Well, they each have their own Orion 2400d amps, and they absolutely rock!
I think what went wrong with this guy's install is that maybe the box was too small. Yeah, I know, Orion says this or that, but there is no substitute for good enclosure design software and a little experimentation. For instance:
I used an earlier version of WinISD. Great program. But I accidentally added the driver's displacement to the internal volume the program told me to. The result?
These monsters are running about 1,200 watts RMS each and the boxes are 6.89 cubes each- that's internal! They also ended up being tuned to about 26 Hz. Granted, I ALWAYS run my subsonic filters, but the point is that these are meant to be high excursion woofers.
1 year later, and they still out-pound anything in my tri-city area.
My point is, just be careful with your purchase, and even if you do screw up, don't blame your equipment. Most likely, you can always get a second chance.
Incidentally, my next boxes will be tuned to about 33 Hz, with 8" diameter ports, about 4.25 cubes each. It sure is fun to watch a sub bounce over an inch both ways, but that's a lot of power wasted.
PS- favorite track: "Machine Melt", Bass Mekanik- Boomstyle album.
I hope I don't come off sounding like an idiot, I've been working with audio gear for well over a decade, and have helped more people than I can remember. And I NEVER charge for work. I do it for fun and experience. If I can help you out, please let me know. I'm a pretty busy guy, but I'll try my best for ya!
~~~~SOLOWINGLAGI~~~~
I have an Orion HCCA 12.2 Subwoofer and a Orion HCCA D 5000 amplifier. The sub is rated at 2000 rms power handling and the amp is rated at 2500 rms max output.
I really just would like to know if putting it in a ported enclosure (to manufacturers specifications) is more prone to blowing the subwoofer vs a sealed enclosure.
Is this to much power for the sub? I was reading another posting on here and someone said its better to give the sub more power than not enough power to prevent clipping. That's the last thing I want to do.
Thank you.
Ricky
Replies (42)
Orion_HCCA on 12/31/2008 02:28:21
Oh the year and model of my car:
2001 Acura CL Type S
Thanks.
swez on 12/31/2008 08:16:37
Wow, that's one sick looking sub all right. The specs can be found here to answer your questions: (5,000 watts peak, short duration)
http://www.orioncaraudio.com/Products/Products.aspx?ProductID=512
http://www.orioncaraudio.com/Support/Manuals/Subwoofers/HCCA/Orion%20HCCA%20Subs%202007.pdf
Manual, enclosure details for ported on page 24.
This is an SPL Compitition sub.
Swez
ttocs on 12/31/2008 09:22:21
I never have paid attention to the power ratings of speakers in the decade that I installed. Give it as much power as you can, and keep it clean and you will be fine.
Victor is our box guru and can probably help you out but he is in india and answers most questions while we are sleepin.
swez on 12/31/2008 13:33:07
Don't forget Drew... newB, he's done some real nice work on layouts and such.
Orion's general ported specs for this 12" sub are:
Internal dimensions: 2.0 cf box
Port: 4.5" x 4.5" sq and 15" long (Includes port and sub displacements)
PTF: 38 Hz.
This is a pretty small enclosure for SPL use mainly. When I see a 4" voice coil, 33mm X-max, (One way) and a compact enclosure, the sub is designed for brute SPL use.
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 12/31/2008 17:45:09
Thank you Swez. Since you said this enclosure seems a bit small, would you recommend I have a larger enclosure made to achieve better SPL?
I have talked to a few other guys that have owned this subwoofer and they have given it more air space, but I am afraid to go away from Orion specifications because I don't want to blow the subwoofer (knocks on wood)
What do you think Swez? Stick to manufacturers specs? Do you think it will handle 2500 rms no problem in the enclosure referenced here, slot ported?
Thanks
Ricky
swez on 12/31/2008 18:35:41
It really depends on your targeted lows. Most vehicles resonate the most SPL in the 55-70 Hz. range. If a guy wants lots of deep lows, they often trade power handling and use a larger box and port design.
You can get more deep lows when tuned at say 36 Hz., but give up a few dB of SPL too. There's no free lunch and each box design has pros and cons. The Fs is 36 Hz. (Free Air Resonance) When porting, we want to stay above Fs.
I would suggest starting your first box as spec'd by Orion. If you wish to make another one later, shoot Orion Tech Service an e-mail and ask what they suggest as an alternate for your next box design. (Larger and lower PTF)
Finally, this 4" coil and motor system are designed very well for heat dissapation. (5,000 watts peak, 1,500+ RMS) The issue in a larger box is exceeding X-max parameters and ripping the coil/spider junction apart. Yes, this sub comes with field replacement parts, but that kit won't be cheap. Like ttocs said, more clean power from the amp is far better for a sub than heavily clipped signals from a weaker amp. (Distortion does not kill the sub, but heat build up will)
Got all that?
Swez
PS Note that Orion recommends 1" thick MDF for panels and front baffle. For Competition SPL apps, that makes perfect sense at 140 + dB's. One full 4' x 8' sheet will do the job and materials left over.
Orion_HCCA on 12/31/2008 18:54:34
Wow. That is quite a bit of information, thanks. So, will I be o.k with all that power in their recommended enclosure? 2500 RMS in 2 cubes?
&
Is it true that the sub will handle power better if I go sealed? How would a sealed enclosure sound with that much power?
Thanks for your time.
swez on 12/31/2008 20:39:00
Sure... like teaching willing students and it's a pleasure to see you back at CK again.
Sealed boxes promote a good deal of internal back pressure to the rear of the woofer cone. This restricts cone excursion to some degree, but often get higher power handling too. (So what?) This is often the design choice for SQ/SQL apps. The smaller the enclosure, the more power the sub can take. However, the deep lows roll off much faster and not as strong as a well designed por ted box.
Yes, start with the 2.0 cf ported design as mentioned before. If you throw too much low bass energy in, "cone whop" will appear and that's a sign to dial back on the bass energy.
Try not to over-think the process for now. You have a basic formula to get things in the ball park. If a change is warranted later, so be it.
Swez
Victor on 01/1/2009 03:36:13
Wish you all a very happy new year ..!
That sub-amp pair, makes a mean bass machine...
If you wanna have that sub in a ported enclosure
1 - Protect it with a Subsonic filter set at the port tuning frequency
2 - Set the gains with a DMM and aim for 45volts.
3 - 2 cu.ft enclosure tuned at 38Hz
If you want that sub in a sealed enclosure.
1 - You can give it the full 2500wrms, and aim for a gain setting of 50volts with the DMM...
2 - 1.5 cu.ft internal volume for the sealed enclosure.
I would personally put that sub in a sealed enclosure and give it some real clean power as that extra 500wrms provides some very good head room.
In theory and even in real time, what swez said stands true as an inherited property of a sealed enclosure
"""However, the deep lows roll off much faster and not as strong as a well designed por ted box. """
but at 2500wrms ... all deep lows are heard just too well and you would feel the bass too.. thats a lot of power, even to make a 25Hz tone audible, even if its in a sealed enclosure....
at 2500wrms that sub will POUND .... i would not sacrifice a flat response over the bass spectrum with the sealed enclosure to gain a few db's at the tuning frequency of the ported system.
heres an article on gain setting with the help of a DMM....
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t57
about the enclosure, don't go bigger than 2 cu.ft ported if you want to power that sub with 2000 - 2500 wrms .....
with the sealed try not to go bigger than 1.5 cu.ft , its gonna be loud, clean and crisp, with amazingly responsive transients too..
hope this helps...
Victor...
Orion_HCCA on 01/7/2009 01:50:54
Excuse me while I pick up my jaw =0
You two guys are some audio gods.
I had a feeling when I joined this website it wouldn't be like others, in terms of receiving such knowledgeable suggestions.
I have one last issue to address for the time being, as I am still awaiting one final part for my install. I have my sub and my amp already of course, and also a Kinetik HC1400 battery to back up my power along with a Stinger 200 amp isolator ftw. =)
Whats your take on the Kinetik line of batteries, will this one do the job?
Ok I lied I have two issues ;-)
Second thing is, in regards to all that bass going through the ported box, heres the reason why I was so paranoid about it and asking you guys if thats to much power for the enclosure etc.
I previously had an Orion H2 12.2 being pushed by that same amp at 2 ohms (1600 rms), which I ended up frying (both the amp and the sub) Anyway, the enclosure a shop made for this H2 was a T Line, which I am sure you both know exactly what that is. The person who made it put it in 4.0 cubes and here is an exact drawing of it that he made:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/babyfaceplayboy/200324857477_0_0.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/babyfaceplayboy/200324160773_0_0.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/babyfaceplayboy/200324135557_0_0.jpg
I have been told that this enclosure is garbage and that I gave my sub to much power in it, which resulted in my voice coils frying. Does that sound right? I was relatively happy with the bass it produced (for most songs, hard and clean bass) although on some songs, the bass didn't hit at all, it sucked. This is the only reason why I am really REALLY leaning towards a sealed box. Btw, I listen to mainly rap and R & B.
Victor, if I choose ported, do I run a risk of not pounding every single bass note? Cause I know with sealed I will HIT EVERY note right??
Lastly, comparing this box to the box I will have made for my HCCA (to specs) should I have anything to worry about? They are two completely different things I have been told correct? A T Line and a well designed ported box??
Thanks fellas, your the best. =)
Orion_HCCA on 01/7/2009 01:58:52
Oops. Not 12.2, but a 12.4. Impossible to run a dual 2 ohm sub at two ohms if I am not mistaking so yeah.
Victor on 01/7/2009 05:34:34
1 - Kinetik does make good storage devices. Which one would do the job depends on a few things.
2 - What battery/ies do you have at the moment ?
3 - Alternator specs ?
4 - Have you done the Big 3 upgrade ?
5 - What is the total current draw of the Sub amp + Mids/highs amp ?
6 - The stinger isolator is a good unit, although it is not a necessity, it sure will be a good asset for the charging system.
----------------------------------------------------------
About that so called T-line enclosure suggested ... He just helped you dig a grave for your sub......
----------------------------------------------------------
""Victor, if I choose ported, do I run a risk of not pounding every single bass note? Cause I know with sealed I will HIT EVERY note right??""
Well everything below the tuning frequency of the enclosure will roll off at 24 dB per octave.... Ported will exhibit reduced mechanical power handling too.
The EBP of this driver is 62.66 .... driver with EBP below 50 are meant for sealed enclosures, between 50 and 90 would be flexible for various enclosure types, and above 90 would be ideally suited in a ported enclosure..
Since this driver has an EBP leaning more towards the sealed type, I would suggest a sealed enclosure for this sub.
Sealed enclosures exhibit a 12db roll off. A sealed enclosure will help the sub withstand a lot of power abuse as compared to the ported enclosure.
Put that sub in a 1.5cuft (internal) sealed enclosure, and you'll be a happy boomer...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
a well made 1.5cu.ft sealed enclosure + well tuned gains + properly tuned mids and highs + a stable power supply + sound damping ( dont ignore this part, sound damping your car can itself give you a 3db rise in SPL, and get rid of all those annoying rattles and the exterior noise too )
if you've done all this.. you surely have nothing to worry about ....
Victor...
Orion_HCCA on 01/8/2009 03:11:21
1 - Kinetik does make good storage devices. Which one would do the job depends on a few things.
2 - What battery/ies do you have at the moment ?
Funny that you ask Victor because I my stock Interstate battery up front just took a dump on me earlier this evening. LOL.
& of course I have the Kinetik HC1400, which was originally meant for my trunk but now I am considering putting it up front and just buying a second one. What do you suggest?
3 - Alternator specs ?
120 amp stock
4 - Have you done the Big 3 upgrade ?
No, but I have heard of it, I will have the shop guys to do it for me.
5 - What is the total current draw of the Sub amp + Mids/highs amp ?
I have factory highs, mids and tweets, they are all Bose components which dont sound to bad, but I dont know how much they draw. Same for the sub and amp, I have no idea. I know I know I will have to much bass but Im so on a budget, I just cant do it all at once.
6 - The stinger isolator is a good unit, although it is not a necessity, it sure will be a good asset for the charging system.
Sweet. Yeah I was told I should have it to prevent primary battery discharge and also in the event that one battery takes a dump, it wont leach off the other one and leave me stranded. Did I just say the same thing twice but word it differently? LOL.
Plus, the folks over at Kinetik told me if I have two of their matching batteries in the car, I don't really need an isolator. Bah! I already bought it, but they also said its not good to mix two different battery technologies. I guess.
I was seriously leaning towards a ported enclosure before I ran into this forum, but now I know I am going to do sealed. Thanks. =)
Victor on 01/8/2009 03:40:16
120 amp ALT+ ( 0/1 awg )BIG 3 + 2 ( HC1400 ) batteries, should give you a considerably stable, power supply.
Don't forget the Sound damping part . ( It is a foundation to building any High end SQ / SPL system )
Build the enclosure with 3/4" MDF and use 1" for the front baffle. Glue well, and pre drill to use self taping screws. Use silicon to seal all joints internally.
I have a feeling that your bass engine is tooo strong for the rest of your audio system, some day in future once you are satisfied with tonnes and tonnes of bass, you would surely need to upgrade your speakers and amplify them well to balance with the Bass engine...
Keep us updated on this project.
Have fun..
Victor...
Orion_HCCA on 01/19/2009 18:26:23
Hey guys how goes it? =0
It's been quite a journey to say the least. Deciding on what kind of enclosure I should put this monster in has been a tough decision. Ugh, I put to much thought into it, but I have finally decided. After going to literally 8 audio shops, one guy almost had me convinced on ported, but I could just not sacrifice hearing a song I love with no bass in it.
So...
I am having a 1.5 CF sealed enclosure built as I type this. It will have a 1.5" inch top baffle (hope that's not overkill) and I hope to have it all installed this week. I ll let you guys know how it hits. Thanks for all your help.
Ricky
swez on 01/19/2009 19:43:46
Good call on this one Ricky. Sealed subs tend to sound smoother and more balanced for everyday music. After the break in period, they will get low and with all that power at your disposal, it can will be loud when you so desire.
The 1.5" baffle panel is really needed to support such a heavy sub. Your fabricator can even route out a recess for a nice, flush fit. You may want to look for a metal grill cover to protect the sub from stupid finger pokes to the dust cap and such. I don't know why, but some kids just have to poke things like this and ruin the looks.
How did you arrive at 1.5 ft^3 sealed? The specs recommend 1.35 ft^3 as the upper limit sealed. Internally, when the sub displacement is factored in, (0.3 ft^3) the end result will be ~1.2 ft^3. (Close enough for most audiophiles)
In all, I think you're gonna love the sound of this bass engine, if you can feed the amp enough power to drive it to full potential. This is a Competition Class Bass Engine!
Cheers,
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 01/21/2009 16:46:19
LOL @ I don't know why, but some kids just have to poke things like this and ruin the looks.
Ya, dumb kids. LOL.
1.5 cubes came from Victor if I am not mistaking. Is that to much airspace? This one guy at this one shop said the difference between 1.35 and 1.5 is so minuscule, it wouldn't even affect it to the point where its noticeable. Oh crap, I'm afraid now. Are these specs going to adversely affect my bass? =(
How long of a break in period should I give it Swez? Exactly please, hours wise and power wise?
Thanks
Ricky
swez on 01/21/2009 16:57:49
Relax Ricky,
Your well within the limits the sub maker recommends. (Enclosure wise)
Yeah, kids seem to like poking dents in the voice coil caps. I don't know why, but they do it at the Big Box stores all the time. LOL
Break in time depends on the power you feed the sub and how low the signals go. (8-10 hours at 50-80% power is usually enough) You'll know when the sub is broken in. The low bass will get stronger in a matter of a day or two. If you are a cautious type, 12 hours tops @ 50% power)
Don't sweat it, just enjoy it,
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 01/23/2009 13:47:12
LOL. Man I just realized I'm such a worry Willy from the way you talk to me all the time, seems like I am always flipping out over something tiny. HA HA. I ll take a chill pill man.
Ya I remember the first time I owned some Orion's, they were the XTR Pro 12's. I thought Orion sucked a$% when I got them, but then they broke in and I was impressed. After that, I loved Orion forever.
I'm supposed to have my stuff installed tomorrow so I ll keep you guys posted.
Thanks Swez.
Later.
Ricky
Victor on 01/23/2009 14:49:14
Let me put it this way ..
Manufacturers recommended air space - 0.9 cuft (min) - 1.35 cu.ft (max)
1.5 cu.ft internal enclosure
0.3 cu.ft sub-displacement.
------------------------------------
1.2 cu.ft effective volume.
Since you are powering this sub with some extra bit, I would not recommend building the 1.35 cuft... would not harm the sub ... but the bass would be a wee-bit sloppy. With 1.2 cu.ft the bass would be tight and crisp.
Victor.
PS: about a break in period for the sub... I have observed that subs with higher sensitivity break in faster and at lower power too...
swez on 01/23/2009 15:39:54
As Victor says, at high power, your sub may get a little sloppy/floppy or boomy in a larger box. If you note that after the break in time is over, you can easily add a few blocks of 2 x 4's into the box to shrink the internal airspace the woofer sees.
Tech Tip: 10" L x 1.5" T x 3.5" W = 0.03 cf
It may take some experimentation to figure out how many filler boards are right for your new box. I'd say 4 boards at minimum, (0.12 cf filler) and/or perhaps 2 more as needed. But don't worry about it until evidence says otherwise. We can cross that bridge if needed later.
We know the tricks & fixes for typical mistakes that crop up. Most of the time, they are very simple, cheap and easy button fixes. GRIN
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 01/23/2009 18:47:31
O.k guys I took these numbers from the Orion website.
14x14x14 = 2744 divided by 1728 = 1.5 cubic feet. Is that correct?
By telling my installer to build it at 1.5 cubes, did I go wrong? He should know this means internal right?
Sorry guys, but you put me back on the worry side. I am taking algebra in college right now so forgive me for being a bit lost on the equations here. Also, I wanted this enclosure to be built to the T, flawlessly so I can't help being a worry Willy again.
Thanks
Ricky
swez on 01/23/2009 20:25:29
Dear Willy the Worrier, SMILE
You don't have to worry about the box specs as I just remembered that you will have a 1.5" baffle panel to mount the sub. That will shrink the internals of the box to a point all should be fine. Did you not say the other panels will be 1" MDF as well? If that is the case, you should be just in the pocket.
As I said before, if you do note sloppy bass after the sub breaks in, it's easy to add a few spacer blocks to shrink the box as needed. (Piece of cake)
Some Fatherly Advice: (I'm 53 and still make dumb mistakes)
Ricky, life is all about adjusting to change and moments of uncertainly. We all have them and the older we get, the more we learn to go with them in life and learn as needed. True understanding, learning comes from making mistakes! Better still, learn from others mistakes so we don't have to learn lessons the hard way.
Not knowing our options and not getting good info from those who have been there before, failed and then learned and got it the next time around. Failure is not final! It's part of the learning curve everyone has to work out in life. Besides, there's a solid support team here at CK and it's all free and not just limited to car audio.
Carry on and let the process take its natural path... success! CLAP
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 01/25/2009 04:05:01
Hey guys. I just came home playing my subwoofer at only 1/4 of the gain up (tuned by the shop) and I noticed when I went up on my bass remote, the woofer stopped playing.
I called the shop and he told me that this woofer is over rated and I was clipping it, so I should stop turning the bass knob up. Well, my subwoofer is now fried. I played it all the way home (not touching the bass knob) and after about an hour of play, I opened my trunk to see smoke and I knew my sub was fried . =( I am extremely disappointed guys. I opened the trunk and noticed my subsonic filter was off.
Can you possibly explain to me what went wrong and maybe why this happened, because now I am just straight up giving up on Orion, this my second nightmare with the equipment.
Its in a sealed box built to specifications and the battery in the trunk and battery isolator up front etc.
I don't know what happened.
Thanks guys, I appreciate your time.
Ricky
swez on 01/25/2009 09:32:41
Ricky,
Is the sub still under warranty?
This is very hard to diagnose w/o a post-mortum and taking the sub apart to figure out what went wrong.
The smoke indicates excess heat may have built up in the VC's and melted the wire's insulation. It could be too much power, a blocked cooling vent or just a badly wound coil set.
Sealed boxes do not require a subsonic filter. If you had a ported box and the filter was off, it's usually a mechanical failure like the spider suspension rips or separated from the coil bobbin. The sub would still work, but sound terrible.
Finally, many SPL Competition subs have field/user replacement kits. Yours may be one of them. These kits include the cone, spider, coil and surrounds. I would not recommend you trying to do the repair. This takes experienced hands to do. Yes, this one has that option.
I would suggest you contact the seller where you obtained the sub and ask for a warranty replacement &/or return to the Mfg for reconing. You may have a factory defect they have seen before and with minimal expense, they'll exchange the damaged one for a another woofer.
Swez
PS Sorry to hear you had this happen on the first day. But understand this does happen and it's wise to allow the sub several hours to break in before dialing up the power.
swez on 01/25/2009 09:50:12
Was looking at the amplifer specs and it states 2500 watts RMS @ 1 ohm. That sub is rated at 2000 RMS.
Once a sub has broken in properly, it will usually handle the extra wattage. But before the sub breaks in, it's stiff and X-max is limited until all the moving parts loosen up. That may have contributed to the failure... TOO MUCH POWER before the sub was fully broken in.
As I see it from your words, you went too far, too soon and fried the sub OR, the sub is a factory defect and just failed. That amp has a lot of power for a single 12" woofer.
You may want to rethink the new sub and go back to the HCCA-12.4 for this install. That will cut the RMS power to the sub, but will still be plenty strong. (1600 RMS is plenty of power for a single sub)
If you stick with the HCCA-12.2, dial back on the amp gain and limit bass boost to protect your investment.
Comments/questions?
Swez
Victor on 01/25/2009 10:29:07
This is for the 2nd time that the sub gave up on u....
was it the same amp that you used with both the subs that fried ????
Orion_HCCA on 01/25/2009 11:49:46
No. This was a brand new amp sent directly from DEI (Orion) and actually it was the H2 that fried the first time.
Thank you.
Ricky
P.S Swez.
1. So you don't smell foul play as for the subsonic filter being off?
2. Since my amp fried my sub, chances are my amp is bad too now right?
Thanks again.
Orion_HCCA on 01/25/2009 12:59:25
Update guys:
I just got in my car and the sub plays now but I know for sure at least one of my voice coils is fried because I hear that weird rattling sound when I put my ear next to it.
Also, when I turn my music up around past 10, then my amp shuts down.
Is the amp bad? What about my woofer? I'm so lost. =(
Thank you.
Ricky
Victor on 01/25/2009 13:40:24
"""when I turn my music up around past 10, then my amp shuts down. """"
most likely your installer did not set the gains correctly.... and distortion may have fried the sub....
This is one sturdy sub.... and takes a whole lot of power to fry it... only thing that cud do this wud be distortion....
If this sub is under warranty , try contacting the manufacturer for a replacement... most likely they would deny cause they are well aware of the rock solid built of this sub, and can easily make out foul play at installing...
this sub has not fried cause of mechanical failure, it is because of a clipped wave of high amplitude...
can you take pictures of your current setup,
enclosure, sub, amp settings, and also note the hu settings along with the bass control knob setting.
I am wanting to believe that what went wrong was not at the sub or the enclosure level it is most likely at the amplifier level...
swez on 01/25/2009 17:54:53
I don't sense foul play here so much as maybe the installer could have been a bit more prudent when gain setting this very strong amp. A bench test will tell if the amp was damaged too. (Hopefully not)
Most Competition amps have good short circuit protection. In this case, it seems one coil is fried for sure. Interesting to note the sub worked at all today. I would recommend pulling the fuse on the sub amp so it is not damaged any further until your installer has a good look at things.
In a sealed box, the ss filter is NOT an issue. You cannot throw that one at them. It was not a factor here.
Since this is the 2nd time around, installer/operator error should be considered as much of the problem. This rig is very robust, but it ain't bullet proof.
If ya want to spread the blame around, the installer did not "abuse proof" his install well enough. He loaded the gun, but who shot their own foot? (Own it, learn from it and do not repeat this one again okay?)
Not meaning to dis ya on this at all. Just learn from it, figure out what the repair options are and be more prudent in the future. It's expensive to make such mistakes. COFFEE
FYI: This is what keeps my bother busy on service calls. He'll set up a system, install limiters and run a heavy load test and note all presets. If he gets a hostile callback from the club owner, he takes out his call notes, looks at the setting and if they have been altered, bingo...
"Here's the reason(s) this XYZ product(s) failures!!! Your guys in the DJ booth created a large expense that did not have to be. Shall I install a tamper-proof door to the rack and give you the only keys?"
Sorry to hear your sub failed on day one. A Mfg's defect is remotely possible, but more likely an installer/user issue here. SAD I think Victor's summary/diagnosis is pretty much spot on. Excessive clipping is very hard on even the most robust of subs and speakers.
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 01/26/2009 00:34:15
Victor:
The sub is not under warranty, unfortunately. Orion clearly states in their owners manual "sold as is, no warranty" So like Swez already mentioned earlier, I will have to get a re cone kit. I will try to get those pictures to you a.s.a.p and thanks for your concern. =)
Swez:
Those analogies you used were very helpful, thanks. I did dig my own grave, he just built me the casket. Either way, I'm f*#(@! because the re cone kit will run me $100 bucks. I have a lot of respect for individuals like yourself, so please believe me when I say, I know you are not trying to diss me at all. Even if you were, I would not talk back to someone who is older than I am. That is plain out bad mannered and would show an enormous lack of immaturity if I did, for I am not that way.
You are only trying to pass on useful knowledge, of which you have acquired over the years, and I am more than grateful for that.
I would be lying if I said I don't feel like I have bugged the crap out of you two guys. Thanks again, and I ll give you guys an outcome of my amplifier on Tuesday when I return to the shop.
Ricky
swez on 01/26/2009 01:37:50
Well said Ricky! CLAP
I have a lot of respect for a guy who takes responsibility, admit an error, own the outcome and move forward with a lesson learned. Bravo!
We don't dis others or their rigs here. We try to provide objective and accurate info as best we can. It's a joy to work with a guy like you!
Bugged us? Heck no, we are here to assist others the best we can and know how. It's good to have some younger blood on the board that are willing to learn, try new things and grow. If we didn't enjoy it, we would not be here.
Yeah, I feel bummed out by your situation to be sure. SAD If you knew some of my own personal blunders from my younger days, you'd know I really do understand. This is a cheap one in contrast to the stakes we face as we get older.
My Dad used to say... "Son, make all your dumb choices now because when you get older, the ante goes up considerably". He was soooo right.
Keep us posted okay?
Dave
PS As our pastor says, "Failure is NOT final, unless we 'choose' to quit growing". Do you think he has a good point? I sure do!
Orion_HCCA on 02/3/2009 18:36:41
Hey guys I'm still here and I am dropping by to just let you guys know that. I have been bummed out lately about the whole thing, but I must move forward. I'm o.k on the amplifier as I requested an RMA # from the place where I got it, so its under warranty until March 09. Yay!! =)
As for the subwoofer, I have no choice but to fork out the $100 for the re cone kit.
Current status:
I referred my cousin to the shop that did my install and he had some work done. Needless to say he was very content with the service. Since he replaced his old amp with a new one, he kicked me down his JL Audio E1400D monblock amp. Yay again! So, I am at the shop now with an Orion H2 12.2 that I had laying around (which I don't think I ever mentioned to you guys) and going to have it installed as a temporary fix.
Let you guys know how it sounds!
P.S thanks for letting me off the hook and saying I am not bugging you Swez. You rock dude!
Later
=0
swez on 02/3/2009 20:35:06
It's working out pretty well in all for now and that's a good thing.
Bugging us? Not one whit. We are here to help those who are willing to learn and enjoy the process.
For now, you ca bide your time as is and am glad to hear your Orion amp was covered under warranty. Were you able to determine in the amp went kaput?
One step at a time,
Dave
Orion_HCCA on 02/4/2009 17:37:48
Wow. JL Audio + Orion = BOOM BOOM BOOM =)
No, really though guys, it sounds pretty clean. I have the woofer set up in that 4 cubic foot box and since I am only feeding it 270 RMS @ 4 ohms (according to JL specs). I think I have properly utilized the concept of:
Bigger box to compensate for less power = more output, hence the ported box design is working to my advantage in this particular case.
Would you agree guys?
I hope so, otherwise, I may be in trouble. =0
Dave yes, Dave, I was wondering what Swez stood for. =)
So yeah, the cause of death is still unknown, the autopsy has yet to be revealed once I send the amp in. I still feel pretty strongly it was just cause I kept trying to play a dead sub, don't you guys think?
Thanks
Ricky
swez on 02/4/2009 18:20:51
Hi Ricky,
Yes, TL alignments are normally used for good lows in low powered sub systems we see in Home Theater apps. You get nice, deep lows at the price of a large box and lower power handling of a given woofer. It's not the best alignment for car audio or your specific sub. (Too big, low power)
"Swez" is part of the family name. Am a twin and my brothers' wife calls us the fishing Swez clan. Mom called my Dad "Swez" too... when she was ticked off at D.O.D. hehe It's a hybrid of the original Chec name of my granfather... An immagrant from Slovokia, some 96 years ago. (Yep, he did the Ellis Island thing in 1903)
Svezene (Svez-en-e) Translated, it means "A kind man with a big heart and broad shoulders". (Oddly, it fits apptly, except for a few bad days or when somebody poops in my loafers) LOL
When you get your post-mortum results, I would bet the inner voice coil wires got too hot, shorted out and the sub seized until the coils cooled for a while. The outer coils remained reasonably cool and not damaged. The inner coils fried pretty good as they could not cool rapidly enough.
The expansion of the inner coil set due to thermal heating seized the coils until cool. Once they cooled, they shrunk enough to get some sound, but ony the outer coil would operate.
Quote: "Bigger box to compensate for less power = more output, hence the ported box design is working to my advantage in this particular case. " Yes, that's pretty much how it works. When we add "cabin gain" or "transfer affects" for mobile sound, we get a nice bump in SPL around 50-75 Hz. (+10 to +15dB, depending on the vehicle.
Hopefully, the amp did not fry in the process,
Dave
swez on 02/4/2009 18:21:37
Time to start a new post as this one has run its course OK?
Swez
Orion_HCCA on 02/6/2009 00:02:36
Of course that's o.k. Dave. Thank you again for all your help. =)
swez on 02/6/2009 00:16:44
You bet Ricky! It's great working with a willing student!
Dave SMILE
solowinglagi on 03/18/2009 17:40:15
solowinglagi on 03/18/2009 17:59:56
I'm new to this site, and just wanted to post here to kinda let you know how my first experience with the Orion HCCa subs went. These things are BEASTS!
I have two 15 inch Orion HCCA dvc 4 ohm subs. Well, they each have their own Orion 2400d amps, and they absolutely rock!
I think what went wrong with this guy's install is that maybe the box was too small. Yeah, I know, Orion says this or that, but there is no substitute for good enclosure design software and a little experimentation. For instance:
I used an earlier version of WinISD. Great program. But I accidentally added the driver's displacement to the internal volume the program told me to. The result?
These monsters are running about 1,200 watts RMS each and the boxes are 6.89 cubes each- that's internal! They also ended up being tuned to about 26 Hz. Granted, I ALWAYS run my subsonic filters, but the point is that these are meant to be high excursion woofers.
1 year later, and they still out-pound anything in my tri-city area.
My point is, just be careful with your purchase, and even if you do screw up, don't blame your equipment. Most likely, you can always get a second chance.
Incidentally, my next boxes will be tuned to about 33 Hz, with 8" diameter ports, about 4.25 cubes each. It sure is fun to watch a sub bounce over an inch both ways, but that's a lot of power wasted.
PS- favorite track: "Machine Melt", Bass Mekanik- Boomstyle album.
I hope I don't come off sounding like an idiot, I've been working with audio gear for well over a decade, and have helped more people than I can remember. And I NEVER charge for work. I do it for fun and experience. If I can help you out, please let me know. I'm a pretty busy guy, but I'll try my best for ya!
~~~~SOLOWINGLAGI~~~~
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