Hello again, I'm back with a few more questions about a NEW system.
Plans are to run a Quantum Audio QCA-3000D amp on two Alpine Type-R SWR-1042D subs in a ported box. I have a box already so I will just be swapping out the current subs for the new ones. The amp came FedEx yesterday, and the subs are coming UPS and should be here shortly after Christmas.
I am planning to hook the two dual 4ohm subs parallel/parallel to read as 1ohm on the amp for max power. The amp is 1ohm stable so I don't see any problmes with this. The amp I will be using is a little overrated but should produce in the neighborhood of 1200-1500RMS @ 1ohm. Is this too much power for the Type-Rs for daily use or will it be ok? Or, would it be better to run them at 4ohms and get around 600-750RMS? Thanks in advance for all advice you can give.
Replies (20)
kirchatndftbl on 12/23/2008 16:48:38
the subs should handle the extra power fine depending on the size of the enclosure and how hard they are driven
ttocs on 12/23/2008 17:40:43
send your subs as much clean power as you can. Don't even look at the rms and the peak numbers as they really don't matter. You can make a sub play off of 100 or 1000 watts and it will happily play the signal its given until the signal is driven into clipping and that is when you will damage the speaker. The amp with less power will be driven into clipping sooner then one with more power(if its is done right) so you can say that you can damage a speaker with less power easier then you can with too much power. A similar analagy is that you can cut yourself with a dull knife faster then you can with a sharp knife.
thebludemon on 12/23/2008 19:42:14
It is a relatively small enclosure, I'm not exactly sure of the volume but I am pretty sure it isn't over 1.2 cubic ft. per chamber. It is ported with one port per chamber placed on each front bottom corner of the box. The speakers that are in the box now have very close frequency response to the Type-Rs and they sound pretty good, therefore I think the box should already be tuned pretty well for the Type-Rs.
They will be driven pretty hard after they are properly broken in of corse. I guess I will be running the Type-Rs at 1ohm so they sound louder without me having to turn the system up a whole lot. That should help not pound them so hard right? If not, I guess it doesn't really matter.
Thanks for sharing the knowledge.
ttocs on 12/24/2008 00:42:23
you can push the signal into clipping no matter how much power you send it. When the signal is clipped, what actually happens is that the top and bottom of the signal that is normally a smooth line it clipped off and made into a flat line. The further into clipping it is pushed the more of the signal is clipped, and the longer the flat line. When that flat line is sent to the sub it makes it drive to its furthest point(in or out) and then hold it at that point until the clip stops. This is the wost thing you can do to the speaker and is the same as you flooring your car in neutral. The car can take small blurps at full throttle but the longer you hold it there the longer you do damage.
When the signal is in clipping you will hear the speaker start to make a noise that sounds like a clicking mixed with static. When you do this you can generally lower the distortion by turning the bass down or better yet the volume.
swez on 12/24/2008 18:09:03
When you get ready to swap to the R's, measure the internal dimensions of each chamber. Then, measure the ports too. Knowing this information, we can determine the tuning frequency of this box design and help you set thing up nice and tight.
That Q-amp mentioned, does it have a variable Infrasonic filter feature? If yes, set it to about 25 Hz. OK, it does have that feature and good to go there.
As for power handling of these R's, ttocs is spot on about have extra power to prevent clipping. It would be great if your Q-amp has an anti-clipping indicator on the control panel. That will allow each sub to work hard, but not be damaged by clipped signals.
I cannot find that Model # in Quantum's web site or owners manuals. I see the Cozmik Class D QCA3500.1D
http://www.quantumaudio.net/qamps.htm (Specs/propaganda/hype)
http://www.quantumaudio.net/manuals/quantum_cozmikClassDamp_manual.pdf (Manual, the true details we need, but inflated power #'s)
From the specs in manual, they call out 2 x 30 A fuses for that model. That delivers about 700 watts RMS to a 1 ohm load or more like 500 RMS @ 2 ohms. (That's good enough to power one Type R sub properly)
This amp is NOT the beast they make it out to be on their spec sheets. They show "Dynamic or Peak" power ratings and not RMS. Sorry to break the bad news, but now you know the truth. Many low end amp makers really fudge the power numbers and Quantum is one such vendor.
Swez
thebludemon on 12/24/2008 20:28:30
Speakers are supposed to be here on or before January 2, 2009. I think the reason you didn't see the amp model I mentioned is because it is a class AB monoblock, I think you looked at the class D models. I have just looked again and the model number I mentioned is correct (QCA3000D). It has 2 x 120 A fuses and has a 3000W peak according to Quantum, which I knew was false but even then it should have plenty of power.
The ONLY reason I went with Quantum Audio for the amp was because it was all I could talk my dad into buying me for Christmas after he already spent $200 on two Type-Rs. The amp does have a subsonic filter, but it doesn't have a clipping indicator as far as I can tell. I will do my best to set the filters well and to listen for clipping which should be sufficient enough.
I can measure the box any time really...I may do that tomarrow sometime actually.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone!
Grdevs24zero on 12/25/2008 00:08:17
I know some of you are set in stone on this, but I'll try anyway.
There are two ways you can kill a healthy (not defective) speaker.
1) Exceeding the thermal limits of the driver.
2) Exceeding the mechanical limits of the driver.
Clipping a signal isn't actually what kills a speaker. Yes, the signal becomes a square wave which is entirely abnormal, but it's the excess power (A.K.A. heat) that comes from the clipped signal that kills the speaker, not the actual signal itself. The coil cannot dissapate the amount of heat delivered with the extra power, so it burns up.
Put a 20 watt amp on a 500 watt capable speaker and clip it all day, it's not going anywhere.
Put a 500 watt amp on a 20 watt capable speaker and clip it, and that speaker is toasted.
Am I saying over driving a speaker is bad and under driving a speaker is good? No, not really. I'm simply stating that clipping can only damage a speaker if the excesss heat cannot be dealt with.
When I first explored audio I was told clipping was a very, very nasty animal. Nobody went into detail, it was always the "round wave turns into square wave, that is bad" argument. After going deeper into things and comparing failures of speakers with known causes, things are more clear.
Back on topic though-
Thebludemon, there's no way that amp could use 2x 120A fuses. If it truely does use them, I would steer clear for safety's sake. There is absolutely no way that amp can handle that much current.
However, in the spec sheet Swez found, I believe I remember reading a possible 2x 25A or 2x 30A rating, which is much, MUCH more realistic.
ttocs on 12/25/2008 00:17:42
welcome to the forum.
if you stick around long enoug you will see that I do not go into much detail in my answers and 2 paragraphs is a long answer for me. You are correct that heat is what kills the speaker, I was just not going to go into the detail to explain on what a voice coil is and why heat is bad for it. Don't you want to explain on why the dc signal in a speaker, builds heat faster then a regular signal?
Now how ever I have seen many many many more speakers that were killed on a factory radio or even an aftermarket one pushing 10 watts or less then on any 1000 WATT amp in the 10+ years that I was installing. is that due to cheap speakers? maybe a little but in the end it is a low powered deck that was pushed into clipping.
Now what happens when you put 10k watts on a single 10" sub and keep the signal clean?
There is no need to answer as we are debating the same point.......
swez on 12/25/2008 01:34:01
Hey there BD, I did do some google search on that part number and came up with an Class A/B Mono amp with a pair of 60A fuses. It was listed on some "Scmol-Hole" web site with limited info, but the picture show a pair of 60 A fuses. That amp could put out an honest 1200 watts RMS at 1 ohm loads.
One thing though, the current draw is enormous approaching full power. (Consumes about 1700 watts and pushes back just under 1200, a net loss of 500 watts lost to heat) This amp needs a solid power supply to fill it and keep the vehicle running properly. After a few deep low notes at night with your lights on and maybe AC/heater on high, your voltage meter will drop like a rock at each bass hit.
For now, just be aware of the power this amp will consume when you dial up the bass. What vehicle are you installing into?
As for the clipping comments made eariler, both of you are saying the same things in different ways. There are 2 primary failure modes in a well made sub.
1. "Over excursion" from a poorly matched box/sub is one killer. This is a mechanical failure mode. The coil can jump its gap or bottom out on the back plate. The tinsel leads can rip out or the spider may separate from the mounting plate or coil assy. Those are all common mechanical failures, often caused by too much power ot bass boost.
2. Thermal failures are also common. This is caused by excess heat building up in the voice coil assy. Too much power and a poorly cooled coil is one condition that brings on thermal failure. The other is extreme and continous clipping of the amp supply rails. When the amp voltage rails reach their design limits, the normal waveform flattens at the peaks. Under minor clipping, a good sub will handle it in stride. But, when a sub sees long duration flat spots in the wave form, (Like DC pulses) the sub cannot cool properly and heat builds up in the coil and motor system to a point where the sub will fail.
In a nutshell, if the cone is not moving very much, but has a lot of power applied, the cone cannot piston enough air to cool itself properly. That will kill a strong sub thermally by charred voice coils or a broken coil wire. I've done a few post-mortums on fried subs before. Once the coil winding insulation starts to char, it can seize in the gap initially and them fry a wire at the outer ends of the coil windings.
Finally, a well designed speaker/sub can handle extra RMS power if it is clean and not abusive. However, a heavily clipped amp signal does not sound musical at all. If ones ears cannot detect it and adjust accordingly, you'll have a blown driver to replace sooner or later.
Swez
PS As a periodic field tech for night clubs and DJ's, you see it all in time. On very expensive installs, we use limiters and amps with clipping detection to protect the club owners investment.
We set up the system, test under hard use and set limiters to prevent the DJ from doing anything stupid at his mixer. Once the tests are run and the limiters are set properly, we lock up the rack and keep 1 key. They are set in stone and we try to set the amps such that they will rarely clip. (Just a momentary flash on the clipping indicators are the goal)
If they fry a 15-18" woofer, that's $400-600.00 for the replacement woofer and another $200 for the emergency service call. Yep, that's going rate for quality woofers and a tech's time. I wish the night club game would pick up again. It's very profitable until some low skill tech comes in with inferior products and cut profits to the bone.
thebludemon on 12/25/2008 03:06:47
It will be going into a 2005 Honda Civic LX Special Edition and I am planning to upgrade the alternator to a high output one as soon as possible.
I'm going to bed now...its 3:06 am here and I'm very tired.
swez on 12/25/2008 16:33:59
Very good plan. Figure on 175-200A for this upgraged ALT and do the Big 3 wiring as well. That and a stronger than stock battery should do the trick.
Yeah, stayed up late last night too... after 4:00 am.
You're on the right tracks with the gear mentioned. Should be able to hit close to 140dB of bass with the package mentioned. Good plan so far.
Swez
Grdevs24zero on 12/25/2008 21:55:56
Thank you for the welcome ttocs, but I've been a member for a long time, I just do not post much. I did not mean to come off as argumentative, I just wanted to clarify, or rather elaborate, on your post. A few of you guys have been around this stuff longer than I've been breathing, I do not discount the experience and knowledge any of you have amassed, the name of the site speaks for itself.
All too often I see people blame the right problem for the wrong reasons. This is a field where knowing the "whats" is commonplace, but the "whys" are another story. In my opinion, it is also a field where the "whys" are neccessary to know, not only to protect your investments, but to protect yourself from harm that could so easily befall you.
Just my $0.02.
P.S.
When I found this site a couple years ago I learned alot just by reading the posts you fellas made, and I continue to do so. I thank you for what you've contributed to beginners like myself on your own time.
thebludemon on 12/26/2008 01:19:24
140 dBs should be pretty loud...anyways, I have a friend that has a mechanic that should be able to get ahold of an alternator for pretty cheap.
I have about $150-$200 to spend on an alternator OR a new battery and it will probably be about 6 months before I could get which ever item I don't get now. I am assuming that it is more important to have a better alternator in this situation, but would it be better to upgrade the battery first or go ahead as planned and upgrade the alt.?
Your knowledge is very important here as I don't know much about alternators and batteries.
swez on 12/26/2008 06:28:41
One thing many do not understand how the alternator power curves work. At idle speeds - 1500 RPM, one might expect about 50-60% of max output. As the RPM of the motor goes up, so does rotation of the pulley that drives the ALT belt. (Think energy pump for the ALT) Am noting your stock ALT is 70-75 A's at full output. (Denso)
One trick many bassheads employ, use a smaller diameter pulley on the new ALT. This allows more ALT speed rotation at low engine RPMs. Any good mechanic with a solid knowledge of ALT options will know this trick.
The Bat on a small car like yours is probably pretty modest. (500-550 CCA rated) Also, if you live in cold climate, a stock BAT will last about 4-5 winters tops.
When running larger bass engines, we often recommend upping the rating to 700 CCA or higher. (CCA = Cold Cranking Amperes) This allows more amperes of current to feed the amplifier, along with the ALT pulling most of the load. For longer life and extended reliability, consider the Gel Cell types like Optima. They cost more, but last longer too.
Swez
thebludemon on 12/30/2008 19:17:49
I have been looking around for some options for HO alternators but I haven't seen any under $300! Where should I look for a good HO alt. that will last for a while but is still reasonably priced? I can't afford a $300+ alternator right now.
If I can't get the alternator, should I get an Optima Red Top rated at 800CCA and keep the stock alt. and just do the Big 3 using 1/0 guage Kolossus KLMX wire from KnuKonceptz?
I am at a loss as what to do and getting a little frustrated because I had NO idea that an alternator would cost $300+. Pleae help!
P. S. : The alt. is for a 2005 Honda Civic LX Special Edition.
swez on 12/30/2008 20:02:01
Have you tried www.motorcityreman.com for a quote on a HO ALT?
They are located in Detroit and offer competitive prices and a solid warranty on what they sell. I see they offer a Civic package with 140A's for $310.00. OUCH, that hurts:
http://www.motorcityreman.com/honda2.html
They do offer free S/H over $199.99. (Big deal eh?)
The other option to look at, is to add a dedictated battery and 2-stage Isolation kit. Here, you have dual batteries. One for your primary start and other basic features and maybe a mid/highs amp. The other is solely for your sub amp. (Use the Red Top here)
The solinoid type isolator offers minimal voltage drops, (as opposed to the diode based types) and many are rated for up to 200A's of current. The Isolator monitors both batteries at the same time. When one BAT is low, the charging system will shift to that battery and tank up up.
The 2nd BAT is like a current storage device. It will supply voltage & current to your sub amp as needed. When the BAT drops below a certain point, the Isolator tells the ALT to charge it back up again.
An 800 CCA BAT can hold much more stored energy that a 10 Farad Cap. Do a little reading on dual BAT systems before you take the plunge.
Comments?
Swez
thebludemon on 12/31/2008 01:08:05
I will be doing some research on the dual battery sytems, ut from what you said it looks like I may be going that route.
Thanks for the quick reply.
swez on 12/31/2008 01:19:57
No problem... this is a common issue in high wattage system in small cars. Some go a step further and install a dedicated ALT/BAT charging system for the bass engine. It all depends on how hard you press the system and for how long.
The cheaper route is dual BAT's and the Isolation charger device. These are common RV's, larger water craft and now Car audio apps.
Enjoy the process and learn as you go,
Swez
thebludemon on 01/14/2009 23:24:21
Hey again...its been a while, but I finally got everything hooked up today. Wired everything down to 1 ohm and it really pounds. Much louder at half volume than my old subs ever were at full volume. Sound quality is also much better especially at higher volumes.
My stock battery actually went out on me about 2 weeks ago so I went ahead and got myself a group 51 yellow top from my local Advance Auto. I have been thinking about adding a Kinetik hc1800 as a secondary battery in the trunk. Would this be a good idea with the stock alternator? These sell on Amazon.com for $209 shipped. What do you guys think, should I get one?
As always, thanks in advance for the replys.
thebludemon
swez on 01/15/2009 06:37:19
Good job Blu. Give your subs some time to break in and they will get smoother and deeper after 10-12 hours of moderate SPL. If you are using a ported enclosure, set the SSF to 25-30 Hz.
After reading and discussing the Kinetics products with a recent reader here, it looks like you might be better off using a matching battery to your Optima Yellow for the sub amp. Then add the battery isolator kit as mentioned before.
The Kinetics products are very good, but getting accurate information on using/charging them properly is difficult. Kin recommends a special add on charger system to keep their BATs up to peak performance. Their chargers/conditioners are not cheap! In your case, the HC2400 would be the right choice power wise.
Also, if you don't have one now, invest $20.00 and get a decent DMM. (Digital Multimeter) This is a great tool for many electrical tests and handy to have for fine tuning your system. (Protecting your subs) I'll show you how to use it in your system to check system voltage, amp output voltage tests and performance of your future BAT ISOLATOR system.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?
productId=2103174&tab=summary
Finally, take some time to read up on BAT ISO systems. This may be a bit too technical at first glance, but we can walk you through the details as needed. The Diode types are easy to use, but drop the voltage between the ALT to BATs. The Solinoid versions are a bit more complex to install, but more reliable and no voltage drops.
http://www.bcae1.com/battiso.htm
Comments/questions?
Swez
Plans are to run a Quantum Audio QCA-3000D amp on two Alpine Type-R SWR-1042D subs in a ported box. I have a box already so I will just be swapping out the current subs for the new ones. The amp came FedEx yesterday, and the subs are coming UPS and should be here shortly after Christmas.
I am planning to hook the two dual 4ohm subs parallel/parallel to read as 1ohm on the amp for max power. The amp is 1ohm stable so I don't see any problmes with this. The amp I will be using is a little overrated but should produce in the neighborhood of 1200-1500RMS @ 1ohm. Is this too much power for the Type-Rs for daily use or will it be ok? Or, would it be better to run them at 4ohms and get around 600-750RMS? Thanks in advance for all advice you can give.
Replies (20)
kirchatndftbl on 12/23/2008 16:48:38
the subs should handle the extra power fine depending on the size of the enclosure and how hard they are driven
ttocs on 12/23/2008 17:40:43
send your subs as much clean power as you can. Don't even look at the rms and the peak numbers as they really don't matter. You can make a sub play off of 100 or 1000 watts and it will happily play the signal its given until the signal is driven into clipping and that is when you will damage the speaker. The amp with less power will be driven into clipping sooner then one with more power(if its is done right) so you can say that you can damage a speaker with less power easier then you can with too much power. A similar analagy is that you can cut yourself with a dull knife faster then you can with a sharp knife.
thebludemon on 12/23/2008 19:42:14
It is a relatively small enclosure, I'm not exactly sure of the volume but I am pretty sure it isn't over 1.2 cubic ft. per chamber. It is ported with one port per chamber placed on each front bottom corner of the box. The speakers that are in the box now have very close frequency response to the Type-Rs and they sound pretty good, therefore I think the box should already be tuned pretty well for the Type-Rs.
They will be driven pretty hard after they are properly broken in of corse. I guess I will be running the Type-Rs at 1ohm so they sound louder without me having to turn the system up a whole lot. That should help not pound them so hard right? If not, I guess it doesn't really matter.
Thanks for sharing the knowledge.
ttocs on 12/24/2008 00:42:23
you can push the signal into clipping no matter how much power you send it. When the signal is clipped, what actually happens is that the top and bottom of the signal that is normally a smooth line it clipped off and made into a flat line. The further into clipping it is pushed the more of the signal is clipped, and the longer the flat line. When that flat line is sent to the sub it makes it drive to its furthest point(in or out) and then hold it at that point until the clip stops. This is the wost thing you can do to the speaker and is the same as you flooring your car in neutral. The car can take small blurps at full throttle but the longer you hold it there the longer you do damage.
When the signal is in clipping you will hear the speaker start to make a noise that sounds like a clicking mixed with static. When you do this you can generally lower the distortion by turning the bass down or better yet the volume.
swez on 12/24/2008 18:09:03
When you get ready to swap to the R's, measure the internal dimensions of each chamber. Then, measure the ports too. Knowing this information, we can determine the tuning frequency of this box design and help you set thing up nice and tight.
That Q-amp mentioned, does it have a variable Infrasonic filter feature? If yes, set it to about 25 Hz. OK, it does have that feature and good to go there.
As for power handling of these R's, ttocs is spot on about have extra power to prevent clipping. It would be great if your Q-amp has an anti-clipping indicator on the control panel. That will allow each sub to work hard, but not be damaged by clipped signals.
I cannot find that Model # in Quantum's web site or owners manuals. I see the Cozmik Class D QCA3500.1D
http://www.quantumaudio.net/qamps.htm (Specs/propaganda/hype)
http://www.quantumaudio.net/manuals/quantum_cozmikClassDamp_manual.pdf (Manual, the true details we need, but inflated power #'s)
From the specs in manual, they call out 2 x 30 A fuses for that model. That delivers about 700 watts RMS to a 1 ohm load or more like 500 RMS @ 2 ohms. (That's good enough to power one Type R sub properly)
This amp is NOT the beast they make it out to be on their spec sheets. They show "Dynamic or Peak" power ratings and not RMS. Sorry to break the bad news, but now you know the truth. Many low end amp makers really fudge the power numbers and Quantum is one such vendor.
Swez
thebludemon on 12/24/2008 20:28:30
Speakers are supposed to be here on or before January 2, 2009. I think the reason you didn't see the amp model I mentioned is because it is a class AB monoblock, I think you looked at the class D models. I have just looked again and the model number I mentioned is correct (QCA3000D). It has 2 x 120 A fuses and has a 3000W peak according to Quantum, which I knew was false but even then it should have plenty of power.
The ONLY reason I went with Quantum Audio for the amp was because it was all I could talk my dad into buying me for Christmas after he already spent $200 on two Type-Rs. The amp does have a subsonic filter, but it doesn't have a clipping indicator as far as I can tell. I will do my best to set the filters well and to listen for clipping which should be sufficient enough.
I can measure the box any time really...I may do that tomarrow sometime actually.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone!
Grdevs24zero on 12/25/2008 00:08:17
I know some of you are set in stone on this, but I'll try anyway.
There are two ways you can kill a healthy (not defective) speaker.
1) Exceeding the thermal limits of the driver.
2) Exceeding the mechanical limits of the driver.
Clipping a signal isn't actually what kills a speaker. Yes, the signal becomes a square wave which is entirely abnormal, but it's the excess power (A.K.A. heat) that comes from the clipped signal that kills the speaker, not the actual signal itself. The coil cannot dissapate the amount of heat delivered with the extra power, so it burns up.
Put a 20 watt amp on a 500 watt capable speaker and clip it all day, it's not going anywhere.
Put a 500 watt amp on a 20 watt capable speaker and clip it, and that speaker is toasted.
Am I saying over driving a speaker is bad and under driving a speaker is good? No, not really. I'm simply stating that clipping can only damage a speaker if the excesss heat cannot be dealt with.
When I first explored audio I was told clipping was a very, very nasty animal. Nobody went into detail, it was always the "round wave turns into square wave, that is bad" argument. After going deeper into things and comparing failures of speakers with known causes, things are more clear.
Back on topic though-
Thebludemon, there's no way that amp could use 2x 120A fuses. If it truely does use them, I would steer clear for safety's sake. There is absolutely no way that amp can handle that much current.
However, in the spec sheet Swez found, I believe I remember reading a possible 2x 25A or 2x 30A rating, which is much, MUCH more realistic.
ttocs on 12/25/2008 00:17:42
welcome to the forum.
if you stick around long enoug you will see that I do not go into much detail in my answers and 2 paragraphs is a long answer for me. You are correct that heat is what kills the speaker, I was just not going to go into the detail to explain on what a voice coil is and why heat is bad for it. Don't you want to explain on why the dc signal in a speaker, builds heat faster then a regular signal?
Now how ever I have seen many many many more speakers that were killed on a factory radio or even an aftermarket one pushing 10 watts or less then on any 1000 WATT amp in the 10+ years that I was installing. is that due to cheap speakers? maybe a little but in the end it is a low powered deck that was pushed into clipping.
Now what happens when you put 10k watts on a single 10" sub and keep the signal clean?
There is no need to answer as we are debating the same point.......
swez on 12/25/2008 01:34:01
Hey there BD, I did do some google search on that part number and came up with an Class A/B Mono amp with a pair of 60A fuses. It was listed on some "Scmol-Hole" web site with limited info, but the picture show a pair of 60 A fuses. That amp could put out an honest 1200 watts RMS at 1 ohm loads.
One thing though, the current draw is enormous approaching full power. (Consumes about 1700 watts and pushes back just under 1200, a net loss of 500 watts lost to heat) This amp needs a solid power supply to fill it and keep the vehicle running properly. After a few deep low notes at night with your lights on and maybe AC/heater on high, your voltage meter will drop like a rock at each bass hit.
For now, just be aware of the power this amp will consume when you dial up the bass. What vehicle are you installing into?
As for the clipping comments made eariler, both of you are saying the same things in different ways. There are 2 primary failure modes in a well made sub.
1. "Over excursion" from a poorly matched box/sub is one killer. This is a mechanical failure mode. The coil can jump its gap or bottom out on the back plate. The tinsel leads can rip out or the spider may separate from the mounting plate or coil assy. Those are all common mechanical failures, often caused by too much power ot bass boost.
2. Thermal failures are also common. This is caused by excess heat building up in the voice coil assy. Too much power and a poorly cooled coil is one condition that brings on thermal failure. The other is extreme and continous clipping of the amp supply rails. When the amp voltage rails reach their design limits, the normal waveform flattens at the peaks. Under minor clipping, a good sub will handle it in stride. But, when a sub sees long duration flat spots in the wave form, (Like DC pulses) the sub cannot cool properly and heat builds up in the coil and motor system to a point where the sub will fail.
In a nutshell, if the cone is not moving very much, but has a lot of power applied, the cone cannot piston enough air to cool itself properly. That will kill a strong sub thermally by charred voice coils or a broken coil wire. I've done a few post-mortums on fried subs before. Once the coil winding insulation starts to char, it can seize in the gap initially and them fry a wire at the outer ends of the coil windings.
Finally, a well designed speaker/sub can handle extra RMS power if it is clean and not abusive. However, a heavily clipped amp signal does not sound musical at all. If ones ears cannot detect it and adjust accordingly, you'll have a blown driver to replace sooner or later.
Swez
PS As a periodic field tech for night clubs and DJ's, you see it all in time. On very expensive installs, we use limiters and amps with clipping detection to protect the club owners investment.
We set up the system, test under hard use and set limiters to prevent the DJ from doing anything stupid at his mixer. Once the tests are run and the limiters are set properly, we lock up the rack and keep 1 key. They are set in stone and we try to set the amps such that they will rarely clip. (Just a momentary flash on the clipping indicators are the goal)
If they fry a 15-18" woofer, that's $400-600.00 for the replacement woofer and another $200 for the emergency service call. Yep, that's going rate for quality woofers and a tech's time. I wish the night club game would pick up again. It's very profitable until some low skill tech comes in with inferior products and cut profits to the bone.
thebludemon on 12/25/2008 03:06:47
It will be going into a 2005 Honda Civic LX Special Edition and I am planning to upgrade the alternator to a high output one as soon as possible.
I'm going to bed now...its 3:06 am here and I'm very tired.
swez on 12/25/2008 16:33:59
Very good plan. Figure on 175-200A for this upgraged ALT and do the Big 3 wiring as well. That and a stronger than stock battery should do the trick.
Yeah, stayed up late last night too... after 4:00 am.
You're on the right tracks with the gear mentioned. Should be able to hit close to 140dB of bass with the package mentioned. Good plan so far.
Swez
Grdevs24zero on 12/25/2008 21:55:56
Thank you for the welcome ttocs, but I've been a member for a long time, I just do not post much. I did not mean to come off as argumentative, I just wanted to clarify, or rather elaborate, on your post. A few of you guys have been around this stuff longer than I've been breathing, I do not discount the experience and knowledge any of you have amassed, the name of the site speaks for itself.
All too often I see people blame the right problem for the wrong reasons. This is a field where knowing the "whats" is commonplace, but the "whys" are another story. In my opinion, it is also a field where the "whys" are neccessary to know, not only to protect your investments, but to protect yourself from harm that could so easily befall you.
Just my $0.02.
P.S.
When I found this site a couple years ago I learned alot just by reading the posts you fellas made, and I continue to do so. I thank you for what you've contributed to beginners like myself on your own time.
thebludemon on 12/26/2008 01:19:24
140 dBs should be pretty loud...anyways, I have a friend that has a mechanic that should be able to get ahold of an alternator for pretty cheap.
I have about $150-$200 to spend on an alternator OR a new battery and it will probably be about 6 months before I could get which ever item I don't get now. I am assuming that it is more important to have a better alternator in this situation, but would it be better to upgrade the battery first or go ahead as planned and upgrade the alt.?
Your knowledge is very important here as I don't know much about alternators and batteries.
swez on 12/26/2008 06:28:41
One thing many do not understand how the alternator power curves work. At idle speeds - 1500 RPM, one might expect about 50-60% of max output. As the RPM of the motor goes up, so does rotation of the pulley that drives the ALT belt. (Think energy pump for the ALT) Am noting your stock ALT is 70-75 A's at full output. (Denso)
One trick many bassheads employ, use a smaller diameter pulley on the new ALT. This allows more ALT speed rotation at low engine RPMs. Any good mechanic with a solid knowledge of ALT options will know this trick.
The Bat on a small car like yours is probably pretty modest. (500-550 CCA rated) Also, if you live in cold climate, a stock BAT will last about 4-5 winters tops.
When running larger bass engines, we often recommend upping the rating to 700 CCA or higher. (CCA = Cold Cranking Amperes) This allows more amperes of current to feed the amplifier, along with the ALT pulling most of the load. For longer life and extended reliability, consider the Gel Cell types like Optima. They cost more, but last longer too.
Swez
thebludemon on 12/30/2008 19:17:49
I have been looking around for some options for HO alternators but I haven't seen any under $300! Where should I look for a good HO alt. that will last for a while but is still reasonably priced? I can't afford a $300+ alternator right now.
If I can't get the alternator, should I get an Optima Red Top rated at 800CCA and keep the stock alt. and just do the Big 3 using 1/0 guage Kolossus KLMX wire from KnuKonceptz?
I am at a loss as what to do and getting a little frustrated because I had NO idea that an alternator would cost $300+. Pleae help!
P. S. : The alt. is for a 2005 Honda Civic LX Special Edition.
swez on 12/30/2008 20:02:01
Have you tried www.motorcityreman.com for a quote on a HO ALT?
They are located in Detroit and offer competitive prices and a solid warranty on what they sell. I see they offer a Civic package with 140A's for $310.00. OUCH, that hurts:
http://www.motorcityreman.com/honda2.html
They do offer free S/H over $199.99. (Big deal eh?)
The other option to look at, is to add a dedictated battery and 2-stage Isolation kit. Here, you have dual batteries. One for your primary start and other basic features and maybe a mid/highs amp. The other is solely for your sub amp. (Use the Red Top here)
The solinoid type isolator offers minimal voltage drops, (as opposed to the diode based types) and many are rated for up to 200A's of current. The Isolator monitors both batteries at the same time. When one BAT is low, the charging system will shift to that battery and tank up up.
The 2nd BAT is like a current storage device. It will supply voltage & current to your sub amp as needed. When the BAT drops below a certain point, the Isolator tells the ALT to charge it back up again.
An 800 CCA BAT can hold much more stored energy that a 10 Farad Cap. Do a little reading on dual BAT systems before you take the plunge.
Comments?
Swez
thebludemon on 12/31/2008 01:08:05
I will be doing some research on the dual battery sytems, ut from what you said it looks like I may be going that route.
Thanks for the quick reply.
swez on 12/31/2008 01:19:57
No problem... this is a common issue in high wattage system in small cars. Some go a step further and install a dedicated ALT/BAT charging system for the bass engine. It all depends on how hard you press the system and for how long.
The cheaper route is dual BAT's and the Isolation charger device. These are common RV's, larger water craft and now Car audio apps.
Enjoy the process and learn as you go,
Swez
thebludemon on 01/14/2009 23:24:21
Hey again...its been a while, but I finally got everything hooked up today. Wired everything down to 1 ohm and it really pounds. Much louder at half volume than my old subs ever were at full volume. Sound quality is also much better especially at higher volumes.
My stock battery actually went out on me about 2 weeks ago so I went ahead and got myself a group 51 yellow top from my local Advance Auto. I have been thinking about adding a Kinetik hc1800 as a secondary battery in the trunk. Would this be a good idea with the stock alternator? These sell on Amazon.com for $209 shipped. What do you guys think, should I get one?
As always, thanks in advance for the replys.
thebludemon
swez on 01/15/2009 06:37:19
Good job Blu. Give your subs some time to break in and they will get smoother and deeper after 10-12 hours of moderate SPL. If you are using a ported enclosure, set the SSF to 25-30 Hz.
After reading and discussing the Kinetics products with a recent reader here, it looks like you might be better off using a matching battery to your Optima Yellow for the sub amp. Then add the battery isolator kit as mentioned before.
The Kinetics products are very good, but getting accurate information on using/charging them properly is difficult. Kin recommends a special add on charger system to keep their BATs up to peak performance. Their chargers/conditioners are not cheap! In your case, the HC2400 would be the right choice power wise.
Also, if you don't have one now, invest $20.00 and get a decent DMM. (Digital Multimeter) This is a great tool for many electrical tests and handy to have for fine tuning your system. (Protecting your subs) I'll show you how to use it in your system to check system voltage, amp output voltage tests and performance of your future BAT ISOLATOR system.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?
productId=2103174&tab=summary
Finally, take some time to read up on BAT ISO systems. This may be a bit too technical at first glance, but we can walk you through the details as needed. The Diode types are easy to use, but drop the voltage between the ALT to BATs. The Solinoid versions are a bit more complex to install, but more reliable and no voltage drops.
http://www.bcae1.com/battiso.htm
Comments/questions?
Swez
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