I have an Eclipse HU, a pair of MB Quart 4" components in kick panels and a 12" W6v2, which are running off a Kicker zx700.5. The rear channels are unused so I would like to put a pair of 6.5" mids in the factory door locations. I have always done my own installs but usually just used a pair of 6.5" components and a sub; so the technicalities were never much of a concern. I realize a three-way component system is much more complex, so just wondering how/if this would work/sound if I added a Kicker KX2 active crossover:
- front channels: set the 4" components at 300 Hz high pass on KX2.
- rear channels for the mids: set the KX2 at 300 Hz low pass, and the built-in amp crossover at 80 Hz high pass.
- use built-in amp crossover for the sub
I read some of the threads on crossovers but the slope/db/octave info is completely incomprehensible to me. Kicker also makes a KX3 3-way if it would be better to have everything run through one unit.
Thanks
Replies (8)
Jodapp on 12/7/2008 03:22:40
1999 Dodge Dakota
swez on 12/7/2008 07:20:42
You are on the right track. 4" Comps in the front, can only take so much power at frequencies below 300 Hz. Adding a set of 6.5 MB drivers/crossovers in the back will definitely help!
A well-designed crossover will help a lot too. It splits frequencies to each speaker into balanced and smooth transition slope that can be powered off bridged amp channels.
Yes, these types of crossovers are a very complex network of active,(Variable) filters. It takes skilled hands to get them right. Fortunately, Kicker design engineers are equipped and up to the task.
If you need some background details, look here:
http://www.kicker.com/06/tech-support/manuals/manuals/03KX2_KX3TechManual.pdf
Since you have a 5 channel amp, the 3-way crossover version makes for the best choice. Channels 1 - 4 will control the front and rear speakers. The bass channel controls the bass/woofer part of your system. Read the link above until you get the whole picture. If that boggles the mind, we'll help you on the tweaks.
Swez
Ash on 12/7/2008 11:29:54
That configuration can work as I have done the same with ok results, yet there was still left to be desired. The main problem that you will probably encounter is time delay, cancellation, and blending issues resulting from the different path lengths of where the speakers are installed. That is usually where the problems come in unless you have some very sophisticated processing implemented. Complex is right, for getting it adjusted can take hours of tuning and listening especially when tri-amping.
I would highly suggest going with a highly competent 2-way (larger mid/ mid-bass and a high quality tweeter) as 3-ways really have no inherent advantage except for power handling. If you do stick with the 3-way, it is very important to have similar cone materials for ease of tonal balance. This helps when trying to get a seamless transition between the front stage drivers. I like to use midrange and mid bass drivers of the same brand and line.
The crossover will make a large difference as well because sometimes you will find that the points may need to be staggered or overlapped in order to eliminate dips or peaks in the transition between tweeter, midrange, midbass, & sub. Not to mention slopes. That alone can make or break a system regardless of how good the speakers are supposed to be. Essentially the crossover means everything in the final results and slight adjustments can have drastic effects.
For ease of adjust ability in 3-ways, I suggest the use of a outboard crossover that will give total control over what you want to accomplish. When trying to combine outboard and amplifier inboard crossovers especially those with fixed points and different slopes between the two, you may find yourself in a pinch. This is what lead me to use one an outboard.
There are several on the market though they may not be cheap, but they will go a long way in getting things to sound right with less compromises. The more one is adjustable the better control you will have in the final sound. So don't be stuck on one brand and be prepared to do some serious research.
Just to give you an idea:
Currently I'm using an Audio Control component that has a built in EQ. Running to a 4 channel & sub amp (inboard xover's are switched off) then powering 4" comps in the dash with 7" mid basses in the doors. The variable points between drivers are matched and cannot be staggered or overlapped. It works good, but does render some compromises where the EQ has to be put to work to compensate. Without the EQ, it almost would be worthless!
Ash
Jodapp on 12/7/2008 15:31:58
Thanks alot guys, very helpful. And Swez, that link was awesome. I found something similar to that on the Kicker website but yours was much better. Always wanted to see a chart of various instruments and their respective frequencies. I was planning on installing the mids in the front doors in the factory locations, and keeping the kick panels. I was looking at the Kicker SSMB6 because they are free air and would fit. Is there a reason for putting them in the back? Never really liked using rear speakers. I realize this would not be ideal, but not terribly concerned with perfection. Just want it to sound good. Also, if alignment would become a concern I could build some pods to place the components above the mids on the doors.
Thanks again.
Ash on 12/7/2008 16:28:21
They can go in the rear, but if your looking for better sonics then keeping them in the doors and close to the midrange's would be better. Remember, you are trying to make all sound as one. Depending on your final crossover point you may be able actually hear certain tones being drawn towards the rear.
The kickpanels are ideal with mid bass in the doors. You really can't get too much better than that.
swez on 12/7/2008 16:31:58
Mounting the MB drivers in front, have an advantage if there is space in the doors to do so. As Ash pointed out, it's all about time alignments and crossover lapping. He is spot on if you have that option available.
Also, matching and overlapping crossover frequencies are key to quality Mobile Audio installs. In a small cabin, (such as the Ranger PU) having your MB/MR/TW up front and a sub in back, will give better than average performance. No rear stage speakers, (Rear fill) are needed for a quaility install.
Finally, you may wish to consider deleting the 4" mids and use quality 2-way Comps in the front doors instead. Like Ash, I have found that less is more when we have fewer speakers and time delay/crossover issues to manage. When we use door mounted systems and keep the tweeters in the same vertical plane as the wide-range speakers, time delays and cancellation issues are much less and easier to manage.
Finally, Kick panels are fine when we have the space. The balance well if the MB/MR speaker is large enough to go down to ~80 Hz and still take good power. In your case, a 4" MR cannot handle much power below ~300 Hz. If you keep that setup, then MB drivers in the front doors will fill the void.
Think things through and run your thoughs by our guys, (Ash & ttocs) who have made it happen. Diamond Audio offers a similar system arrangement and if one understands the processes well, the results are often well above vanilla ice cream offered by OEM systems.
FYI: Did a major install in a Ford F-150 Super Crew cab a while. The client and I noodled it over for 3 months before we locked in on the components, amps, Sub, HU and EQ. It took 2-1/2 days to install it all plus sound dampening for the doors and rear panel. The results were better than expected, but the intense labor and pre-install planning made it all happen with very few glitches.
When finished, he went back to Indiana, happy as a clam. Once the sub break in period took effect, his later report was one slamming system he was very proud of. Yeah, that was the goal and 3 guys put in 2 long days to install it all. (No, we did not rush the process and took great pains to get every detail just so) The last 6 hours on Sunday, were putting panels and the rear seat back in place after dialing in his amps. (That was a real hoot alone)
Everything was stealth and we'd dare anyone to note the mods except for obvious dash mounted Nak CD-300 HU and 1/2 din EQ'Line Driver. Yep, we worked very well as a team and the results were top drawer. Am not bragging here, but as a team project, the system exceeded all our expectations.
Think about that as you plan your next moves,
Swez
cplkittle on 12/7/2008 18:32:22
That is a pretty cool chart for comparing instruments and their frequency range, here is another good one:
http://www.listenhear.co.uk/general_acoustics.htm
The KX3 looks like a nice way to split up the frequencies, the only easier option would be to purchase a nice set of 3-way components with a preset crossover network.
swez on 12/7/2008 19:17:16
Hey Kit,
Great find on that link. It seems not to account for 3rd, 5th and sub harmonics, we here in live music. But it's close enough to be uesful as primary tones in most common instrumentals.
The tonality and timbre of a given instrument can change notable in a sterile recording studio as opposed to live concert environs.
As for our guest's conundrum, the KX3 has a lot of flex in applied acoustics and lsots of attention to details. Three/four-way systems demand a lot of tweaking time. It can be done, but the user has to be patient in the process.
An RTA is the proper tool to gage/monitor result . But the ear is also a big part of the equation.
Swez
- front channels: set the 4" components at 300 Hz high pass on KX2.
- rear channels for the mids: set the KX2 at 300 Hz low pass, and the built-in amp crossover at 80 Hz high pass.
- use built-in amp crossover for the sub
I read some of the threads on crossovers but the slope/db/octave info is completely incomprehensible to me. Kicker also makes a KX3 3-way if it would be better to have everything run through one unit.
Thanks
Replies (8)
Jodapp on 12/7/2008 03:22:40
1999 Dodge Dakota
swez on 12/7/2008 07:20:42
You are on the right track. 4" Comps in the front, can only take so much power at frequencies below 300 Hz. Adding a set of 6.5 MB drivers/crossovers in the back will definitely help!
A well-designed crossover will help a lot too. It splits frequencies to each speaker into balanced and smooth transition slope that can be powered off bridged amp channels.
Yes, these types of crossovers are a very complex network of active,(Variable) filters. It takes skilled hands to get them right. Fortunately, Kicker design engineers are equipped and up to the task.
If you need some background details, look here:
http://www.kicker.com/06/tech-support/manuals/manuals/03KX2_KX3TechManual.pdf
Since you have a 5 channel amp, the 3-way crossover version makes for the best choice. Channels 1 - 4 will control the front and rear speakers. The bass channel controls the bass/woofer part of your system. Read the link above until you get the whole picture. If that boggles the mind, we'll help you on the tweaks.
Swez
Ash on 12/7/2008 11:29:54
That configuration can work as I have done the same with ok results, yet there was still left to be desired. The main problem that you will probably encounter is time delay, cancellation, and blending issues resulting from the different path lengths of where the speakers are installed. That is usually where the problems come in unless you have some very sophisticated processing implemented. Complex is right, for getting it adjusted can take hours of tuning and listening especially when tri-amping.
I would highly suggest going with a highly competent 2-way (larger mid/ mid-bass and a high quality tweeter) as 3-ways really have no inherent advantage except for power handling. If you do stick with the 3-way, it is very important to have similar cone materials for ease of tonal balance. This helps when trying to get a seamless transition between the front stage drivers. I like to use midrange and mid bass drivers of the same brand and line.
The crossover will make a large difference as well because sometimes you will find that the points may need to be staggered or overlapped in order to eliminate dips or peaks in the transition between tweeter, midrange, midbass, & sub. Not to mention slopes. That alone can make or break a system regardless of how good the speakers are supposed to be. Essentially the crossover means everything in the final results and slight adjustments can have drastic effects.
For ease of adjust ability in 3-ways, I suggest the use of a outboard crossover that will give total control over what you want to accomplish. When trying to combine outboard and amplifier inboard crossovers especially those with fixed points and different slopes between the two, you may find yourself in a pinch. This is what lead me to use one an outboard.
There are several on the market though they may not be cheap, but they will go a long way in getting things to sound right with less compromises. The more one is adjustable the better control you will have in the final sound. So don't be stuck on one brand and be prepared to do some serious research.
Just to give you an idea:
Currently I'm using an Audio Control component that has a built in EQ. Running to a 4 channel & sub amp (inboard xover's are switched off) then powering 4" comps in the dash with 7" mid basses in the doors. The variable points between drivers are matched and cannot be staggered or overlapped. It works good, but does render some compromises where the EQ has to be put to work to compensate. Without the EQ, it almost would be worthless!
Ash
Jodapp on 12/7/2008 15:31:58
Thanks alot guys, very helpful. And Swez, that link was awesome. I found something similar to that on the Kicker website but yours was much better. Always wanted to see a chart of various instruments and their respective frequencies. I was planning on installing the mids in the front doors in the factory locations, and keeping the kick panels. I was looking at the Kicker SSMB6 because they are free air and would fit. Is there a reason for putting them in the back? Never really liked using rear speakers. I realize this would not be ideal, but not terribly concerned with perfection. Just want it to sound good. Also, if alignment would become a concern I could build some pods to place the components above the mids on the doors.
Thanks again.
Ash on 12/7/2008 16:28:21
They can go in the rear, but if your looking for better sonics then keeping them in the doors and close to the midrange's would be better. Remember, you are trying to make all sound as one. Depending on your final crossover point you may be able actually hear certain tones being drawn towards the rear.
The kickpanels are ideal with mid bass in the doors. You really can't get too much better than that.
swez on 12/7/2008 16:31:58
Mounting the MB drivers in front, have an advantage if there is space in the doors to do so. As Ash pointed out, it's all about time alignments and crossover lapping. He is spot on if you have that option available.
Also, matching and overlapping crossover frequencies are key to quality Mobile Audio installs. In a small cabin, (such as the Ranger PU) having your MB/MR/TW up front and a sub in back, will give better than average performance. No rear stage speakers, (Rear fill) are needed for a quaility install.
Finally, you may wish to consider deleting the 4" mids and use quality 2-way Comps in the front doors instead. Like Ash, I have found that less is more when we have fewer speakers and time delay/crossover issues to manage. When we use door mounted systems and keep the tweeters in the same vertical plane as the wide-range speakers, time delays and cancellation issues are much less and easier to manage.
Finally, Kick panels are fine when we have the space. The balance well if the MB/MR speaker is large enough to go down to ~80 Hz and still take good power. In your case, a 4" MR cannot handle much power below ~300 Hz. If you keep that setup, then MB drivers in the front doors will fill the void.
Think things through and run your thoughs by our guys, (Ash & ttocs) who have made it happen. Diamond Audio offers a similar system arrangement and if one understands the processes well, the results are often well above vanilla ice cream offered by OEM systems.
FYI: Did a major install in a Ford F-150 Super Crew cab a while. The client and I noodled it over for 3 months before we locked in on the components, amps, Sub, HU and EQ. It took 2-1/2 days to install it all plus sound dampening for the doors and rear panel. The results were better than expected, but the intense labor and pre-install planning made it all happen with very few glitches.
When finished, he went back to Indiana, happy as a clam. Once the sub break in period took effect, his later report was one slamming system he was very proud of. Yeah, that was the goal and 3 guys put in 2 long days to install it all. (No, we did not rush the process and took great pains to get every detail just so) The last 6 hours on Sunday, were putting panels and the rear seat back in place after dialing in his amps. (That was a real hoot alone)
Everything was stealth and we'd dare anyone to note the mods except for obvious dash mounted Nak CD-300 HU and 1/2 din EQ'Line Driver. Yep, we worked very well as a team and the results were top drawer. Am not bragging here, but as a team project, the system exceeded all our expectations.
Think about that as you plan your next moves,
Swez
cplkittle on 12/7/2008 18:32:22
That is a pretty cool chart for comparing instruments and their frequency range, here is another good one:
http://www.listenhear.co.uk/general_acoustics.htm
The KX3 looks like a nice way to split up the frequencies, the only easier option would be to purchase a nice set of 3-way components with a preset crossover network.
swez on 12/7/2008 19:17:16
Hey Kit,
Great find on that link. It seems not to account for 3rd, 5th and sub harmonics, we here in live music. But it's close enough to be uesful as primary tones in most common instrumentals.
The tonality and timbre of a given instrument can change notable in a sterile recording studio as opposed to live concert environs.
As for our guest's conundrum, the KX3 has a lot of flex in applied acoustics and lsots of attention to details. Three/four-way systems demand a lot of tweaking time. It can be done, but the user has to be patient in the process.
An RTA is the proper tool to gage/monitor result . But the ear is also a big part of the equation.
Swez
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