I have a 15" L7 in a 5.9 cu. ft sealed box. When i turn it up loud there is a rattling sound and I'm almost positive its coming out of the speaker. Does anyone know what this is? Is it "cone whop" ?
Replies (40)
raiders98 on 12/6/2008 14:21:45
Or maybe the wires are hitting the VC?
swez on 12/6/2008 17:19:35
It could be either or both and a few other things too.
Cone whop is caused by over-excursion. (Meaning, the cone is going past its normal excursion limits and the voice coil is smacking into the bottom of the pole piece plate) This will eventually deform the coil former and seize up the cone.
To test for this, depress/express the cone manually with your fingers and feel for drag or scraping in both inward and outward travel. If you note scrapping or a rub, something is wrong with the coil former or charred coil wiring.
If you hear a sharp "Brappp" sound at any time, the cone is getting too much power and not enough back pressure to hold it in check. A smaller box or less power should cure that.
"Lead slap" is also common in subs that are not designed well enough to prevent it. (Rare in Kicker subs) Here, the tinsel leads hit the cone and a slapping sound is heard when played hard. Some of the high excursion sub makers use small lengths of felt on the back side of the cone to dampen the noise.
Newer sub designs, actually attach the lead wires to the spider and just enough slack in the leads to allow the cone to flex w/o slapping.
In your case, I'd look at a smaller box for this sub. (3-4 cf) If the sub has not been damaged already, a smaller sealed box should give good bass and more back pressure to keep the cone in check. If you still want to use the current box, add filler boards to decrease internal air space. This will make a smaller internal air space and brace the panels against panel rattles as well.
Comments?
Swez
raiders98 on 12/6/2008 23:15:45
Will a smaller box sound better?
Cause I have nothing against going smaller
raiders98 on 12/6/2008 23:34:10
BTW i manually pressed it up and it felt just fine, moved smoothly.
ttocs on 12/6/2008 23:35:32
I have had problems before with speaker wires hitting the sub under high excursions and normally try to tie the wires off to prevent it. Try moving the box into a different positions to see if the noise stops. Try lightly pushing on the cone while it is moving to see if the noise gets better or worse.
raiders98 on 12/6/2008 23:39:33
Im gonna check the wires, but is my large box dangerous for my speaker?
swez on 12/7/2008 06:17:42
Quote: "BTW i manually pressed it up and it felt just fine, moved smoothly". That's a good sign!
Yes, a smaller box might be your best answer here. A large box lowers power handling of a given sub, but produces a tad more deep bass too. This sub is rated for about 750 watts RMS. But at high wattage, it needs more internal air pressure to keep the cone in check. (Smaller box, 3-4 cf will help) The box needs to be air tight and not leak.
Finally, large panels need to be braced to prevent panels from resonating. If the panels are not braced well, it will make them flex to a point where they rattle.
Swez
Ash on 12/7/2008 12:09:14
Maximum power handling occurs in the smaller recommended boxes. When digging for deeper bass in large enclosures power handling is compromised quite a bit as well as excursion limitations. It's not hard to bottom out or even damage a speaker in that way. I suggest going smaller as well for with a sub that size you won't miss the lower notes anyway. Too big and you will present muddiness as well as one note bass with the vehicle's transfer function combined.
raiders98 on 12/7/2008 15:49:29
If I build a box using 3/4" MDF that was 22" Wide 22" Tall and 16" deep how would that sound?
raiders98 on 12/7/2008 15:53:14
Would porting my current box fix the problem? Or should I just go for a smaller sealed box. I want it to be loud.
Ash on 12/7/2008 16:19:46
Would have to run some numbers to see what the tonality would be, but that still will depend on the vehicle it's in. Porting may or may not cure it. It all depends on if it's damaged or not. You will have to determine if it is through ways mentioned above, but if it isn't then I would just go with a smaller sealed. The box you are using is at the largest end that's recommended which compromises power handling and pushes it's excursion to it's limits. Not a good combo.
raiders98 on 12/7/2008 16:29:34
Its an an Ext. Cab truck. And I don't think it's damaged because I've pushed on it and it feels smooth and doesn't catch or rub anything. And the SQ is still good.
swez on 12/7/2008 17:35:55
The new sealed box mentioned nets 3.5 cf internal, minus sub displacement. I would shoot for a slightly longer box that nets ~ 4.0 cf after subtracting woofer displacements and any additional bracing used.
Also the front baffle board that holds the sub in place, consider 1" thick MDF here. This is a heavy sub to begin with, so 1" MDF is a good option for rigidity and will not resonate or rattle on deep bass notes either.
Suggestion: L=24" W = 24" D= 18.5" T = .75 MDF
All this nets a 5.0 cf box internally and you have to subtract sub and bracing displacements as well. That should put you in the 3.75-4.0 cf range.
I cannot find the sub displacement number for this sub, but would estimate 0.150 - 0.175 cf. You can add internal bracing parts as needed and that can also shrink the internal air space until you get the sound desired.
Finally, adding some internal sound dampening materials, (Fiberglass insulation or polyfill will help absorb rear cone reflections and muffle any panel rattling you get along the way. See Kicker's box making notes and follew them as needed. You can change H, W and D dimensions as neeed for good fitment. Just not that the larger the enclosre used, power handling drops as well. I think that is the root of your problem now. (Larger box, too much power)
http://www.kicker.com/06/tech-support/manuals/manuals/2008/2008%20L5%20Sub%20c01%20web.pdf
Swez
raiders98 on 12/7/2008 20:14:05
If i decide to go with the sealed box im gonna use your dimensions Swez. I'm also up to a ported box though if you think it would be louder. What do you think i should do? Ported or sealed at about 3.75-4 Cu. ft. I want it loud
ttocs on 12/7/2008 20:30:41
a ported box is not just as simple as pokin a hole in the box, it takes a little more time to design it and a little more skill to construct it but a properly built ported box should be louder then a sealed box. It will not sound as good, but it will be louder.
raiders98 on 12/7/2008 23:01:07
I know it's alot harder to build than a sealed box, and i know the port has to be a precise length depending on the frequency it's tuned to. but I'm up for the challenge. Any help with dimensions would be great.
swez on 12/8/2008 00:11:24
A Ported sub offers about +3dB more SPL, but only at the port tuning zone. For guys who want accuracy and a tight bass sound, we go sealed. If you want to go ported, use the recommeded dimensions off Kicker's web site link from above.
A few years back, (2001?) when the original Square subs Solo's came out, I demo'd them in a sound room. They had a pair of 15's in 6 cf ported boxes and each run off its own Kicker amp. (Kx-750's I believe)
The demo room was about 150 sq ft and maybe a 7 foot high ceiling. As the jack-ass salesman dialed up the bass, ceiling tiles and lamp fixtures came down from the suspended ceiling. Demo amps mounted on the adjacent walls, fell off their mounts and hit the floor as well. Was I impressed at the bass? Yes, but ol Jack just trashed about $1,800.00 of gear in a 2-minute demo. (Sharp dude huh?) LOL
Also, have fabricated and installed many Pro-Line systems for a few years (10 years) with my brother. He's had some pretty strong systems to build and install at night clubs, bars, live concerts and now commercial systems are his bread and butter.
Yep, my brother has run the game from many angles and I chose car audio for a niche hobby and source of income when times were better. It's been an interesting trip to say the least. However, IMHO... there's nothing more aggravating to sit at a stop light in heavy traffic, listening to some A-hole's boom car/truck, some 200 feet away. (Makes one want grab a tire iron, find the offending A-hole and smash his wind shield out as Mr. A-Hole, is invading others/my rights to a quiet commute after a long day at work)
Yeah, enjoy the music, but do it where others who don't have to put up with it too. Seems kinda harsh huh? Well, it's because too many do not have self-control and inflict their noise pollution on those who desire a quiet commute and just want to catch the news or music to calm them down after a very long day at work.
Keep that in mind as you go. Yes, I like a good bass-jones fix at times too. But only when I get away from others and do not invade their rights too. Be mindfull that others may not share our interests and enthusiasm for sonic overloads. Keep it under wraps or someone will take his wrath out on your windshield or worse. (End rant)
Word up,
Swez
raiders98 on 12/8/2008 17:47:53
I'm not out to annoy people or be heard from a mile away. I think im going sealed...
swez on 12/8/2008 19:14:03
Hey Raider,
Did not mean to sound off at you personally... it was just a generlized statement/rant about how too many guys thump the streets at night and in heavy traffic. If my mirrors are shaking and the boom car is 50 feet away, I take issue with that kind of behavior. It gives "car audio" a bad rap and police will take action, write a ticket or impound the vehicle if there are multiple violations on record. Yep, they do not mess around after the first verbal warning is logged.
Also, part of me is curious... "Whatcha got going in the bass system? It sounds good and I'm into that to a degree... mind showing me your rig? Hum, not a bad choice on products and you're install work is very good....nice work"!
The guys that gets my goat... A young bass-head pulls into 7-11 or a gas station with his system smacking out some serious SPL. He leaves the car/truck running and goes inside to get who knows what. Everybody in the whole parking area is beetching it up and want to choke the dumb bell, take his keys or bash his windows out. (Who can blame them?)
Yea, have seen that deal many times and just bite my tongue most times or will wander over to said punk kid and say... "Son, your system rocks pretty good... but not here OK"? That's usually enough to get the point across and he says... "Oh, sorry... I just wasn't thinking". The end.
That's what I am really talking about here. (Total lack of regard for others who don't enjoy his noise) Nothing personal in the least toward you! SMILE
Swez
PS Would most challenge a guy that's 6'4" tall, 230 lbs and speaks in a quiet yet determined voice? Not one has yet in 8 years. That's cool and they know they are in the wrong and nothing more comes from it as he drives away and dials back the thump. OK, problem solved and all is well again. Peace has been restored! LOL
Some people just don't realize that others do not appreciate their antics. Hey, we don't need that crap at some kids' ego issues. Save the SPL for dB drags, dialing in a system or out in the middle of nowhere. Thank you very much for understanding the obvious. CLAP
raiders98 on 12/8/2008 20:44:16
I know it wasn't towards me. And I really don't want to be shaking stuff from 50 feet away. Did shake my windows on my house once though, but since then I've never turned it up that loud. I think a smaller nice sealed box will do me good. I'm thinking around 3.75 cu. ft.
raiders98 on 12/8/2008 22:26:55
Do you think you could help me get my dimensions right? I want the most power out of it so small sealed like you mentioned earlier. My max dimensios are 18" Deep 25" Tall and 25" Wide.
Victor on 12/8/2008 22:45:08
When we talk about trouble shooting... one needs the entire configuration of the system.. not just the sub and its enclosure details...
meaning everything........ beginning from the HU to the RCA's, cabling, battery, alt, amps, speakers etc...
Can someone tell me how much power this sub is getting ????
This sub can very well handle 750wrms in a 6 cu.ft sealed enclosure ...
the trade off's would be poor transient response... power handling should not be an issue.. this is a very sturdy sub, with good built quality.
This is the manual to the L7 15"
http://www.kicker.com/06/tech-support/manuals/manuals/2008/2008%20L7%20Sub%20c01%20web.pdf
I see something else, other than the size of this enclosure..
although if you wanna go with a smaller enclosure ... a 4.5 cuft would suit this sub pretty well ...
Victor...
PS: disconnect all other speakers and just play the sub ... note what happens ...
dial down the gain a tad bit and note
change the orientation of the sub and note ( horizontal and vertical )
next .. wrap the enclosure with thin plastic sheet... ( leave the sub open )... if there are leaks in the enclosure, you will easily notice the plastic reacting at that particular point...
disconnect sub and play other speakers one by one... note what happens.
are your rear speakers covered at the back ? does the sub fire directly into the speakers ?
take the box outside the vehicle and then note
take the sub outside the enclosure.. and disconnect all wires.. take a AA battery and connect each coil one after the other to the +ve and -ve of the battery... you will hear a thud... is it clean or can you hear the rattling..
do all the above and note your observations here.... help us help you COFFEE
raiders98 on 12/8/2008 23:12:52
I'll do what I can tomorrow but for now I can tell you it is powered by a Hifonics Bxi 1206 D Which supposibly puts out 1200 watts rms...Im using a 6 gauge wiring kit by Scoche. I know I need 4 Gauge, I'm upgrading to that as soon as I get some money. I'm using a sony HU. Battery is kind of old and extremely low, I need to drive it w/o music and charge it. Alt. is stock. The sub is facing towards the front of the truck because that was the only way the box would fit. Speaker wiring is 16 gauge (too small I know). The rear speakers are all clear from the sub, one is about 5" away though. This is all in a 1999 Dodge Dakota Ext cab on my backseat.
Victor on 12/8/2008 23:44:09
1200wrms gets a bit over head... you need to go 3.5cu.ft if you wanna power that sub with 1200wrms..
is the sub firing into the rear of the speakers ??... although it is clear from the speakers.. 5" is a very small distance... the throw of air that comes from the sub puts immense pressure on the rear of the speakers...
either cover them or change the sub orientation... if it keeps on firing into those speakers.. some day your speakers will give in...
raiders98 on 12/9/2008 00:04:06
No the speaker is facing the side of the box. If youre sitting inside of the truck the sub faces forward and the speaker is on the left of the box facing right.
I do want to build a smaller box, 3.5 like you mentioned.
swez on 12/9/2008 00:17:51
Was reading the specs on the L5 version raider is using. At 6.0 cf, Kicker states a safe power handling number of 450 watts RMS in that size box. As one moves smaller and to a more compact sealed design, the power handling is 750.
In most PU installs, firing the sub upward toward the ceiling works very well. As long as there are no solid surfaces in front of the cone, this works very well. The space you have available, will determine the size of the box to use.
As for sub wiring gage, #12 is fine. (Rated for ~2400 watts AC)
Am inclined to think the sub is getting too much power in a large box. There's not enough back pressure to hold the cone in proper position at high SPL levels.
Although the coils can handle the extra power thermally, the excursion limits are too great and hense the rattles. In such a large box, the bass will go low, but poor transient response and some muddiness are likely as well.
Finally, what is the max distance between the rear seat and back cabin panel? Knowing that, we can look at what length and height is needed to get a good box design. (Up firing is preferred)
Swez
Victor on 12/9/2008 00:34:10
Swez believes its the L5 and I believe its the L7 ...
please clarify ...
anyways... just do all that i mentioned above and note your observations...
then you could finally decide on making a smaller enclosure..
Victor..
swez on 12/9/2008 00:45:42
You are correct Victor... he did call out an L7 at the top of the page. I had a brain-toot while skiming the earlier info. I stand corrected.
Thanks,
Swez
raiders98 on 12/10/2008 22:38:45
The distance from the center console to the back seat is about 18.5" and my current box is 18 and it just fits. This should be enough to up fire it right?
swez on 12/10/2008 23:23:54
Yes, if the sub can be mounted in the up-firing direction, then we just need to look at your max width and height restrictions to determine the best sealed box design to fabricate on round 2.
PU trucks and SUV's offer good bass in the up-firing position. To keep a low profile and still obtain adequate internal space, one can always tuck part of the sub enclosure under the rear seats.
The biggest issue here, is the sub choice. Kicker subs love large enclosures. (Sealed or ported) To get deep lows, a large box is Kicker's main option.
Many sub makers have developed sub designs to fit compact spaces and still provide solid low bass performance. But Kicker has yet not followed that trend. But if the user has the space, the deep bass is very strong with thier parmeters.
raiders98 on 12/11/2008 20:27:29
Well the box its in right now is certainly big. 5.9 cu ft. lol... I dont have really a width or height restriction. As long as there both below 27" it's fine.
swez on 12/12/2008 04:16:15
Ran some numbers and here's something to consider:
W = 18.0"
L = 25.0"
H = 20.0"
You're net internal dimensions = 4.15 cf
By the time we subtract the sub and add panel braces, the actual internal air space will be 3.5 - 3.75 cf. Get out your tape measure and see how that fits the space you have to work with.
Comments?
Swez
raiders98 on 12/13/2008 18:39:07
What do you think about 23 H 20 W 18 D? I found that the L7 15 has a displacement of .16 cu ft
swez on 12/13/2008 19:04:33
That nets 3.8 cf - 0.16 = 3.64 cf. That's not a bad number, but the "H" and "W" ratios would be best to swap if possible. The more air space we have between the woofer cone and a vertical surface, the better.
Can you make the following fit? (External dimensions here)
D = 18"
H = 18"
W = 26"
This equals 3.8 cf internally, minus the sub displacement. A few triangle type braces will help with larger panel bracing and prevent panel rattles. When the braces are added, if you can get 3.5 CF sealed and no rattles, you've done well.
Comments?
Swez
raiders98 on 12/14/2008 17:44:29
Thanks everybody, especially swez, you guys are great. I finished my box. It ended up being roughly 3.6 cu. ft. and nice and airtight :)
swez on 12/14/2008 20:45:56
So Lucy... "try spaining" wha U lurnt in da new box and how it came out betta dan da earlier version. (Not for my benefit, but for those who have been following your progress along the way)
What deed U lurn? LOL
Rickey Ricardo
PS OK... so my Cubana is not so hot, but Ethel and Fred Mertz wanted to know too. ("I Love Lucy", circa early 60's before color TV was available) LOL
SQLThump on 12/15/2008 15:29:54
I'm deducting 50 points from Swez's overall score for a lame Cubano reference......nobody has used a Ricardo line since like the 1800's or something.....gotta whip out the Tony Montana
Joo wana play mayn!?!? Say 'Ello to my oversize subwofer fren! BOOM!!!!
swez on 12/15/2008 17:41:07
Okay... will take the 50 point deduction and just laugh it off.
But, I will borrow a few snippets froM the "Red Green" series":
1. "If it ain't broke... you're not tryin' hard enough"
2. "If the women don't find ya handsome, they should at least find ya handy"
3. "Duct tape is the mirical tool for just about anything that needs fixin' "
4. "Keep you stick on the ice... we're all pullin' for ya"
Wisdom of the ages from "Possum Lodge"! LOL
Swez
PS How's your new sub system sounding these days?
PSS For those who are not yet Red Green fans, look here and LOL as "Old Man Audio" guides:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL8xOXYAE0w&NR=1
raiders98 on 12/15/2008 19:12:30
Things learned from new box.
1. Never ever run your speaker wire through the center of the speaker like I did first time. Pretty sure that caused the rattling.
2. Up firing in truck sounds alot better and louder. And looks better.
3.There is such a thing as too big.
4.There is no such thing as too much silicone when it comes to sealing.
swez on 12/16/2008 16:54:40
Yeah, wiring through the basket is a bad idea.
Hoped the up-firing method would give some nods of approval in your app. Trucks have high ceilings/roof and that helps the bass waves travel better throughout the cabin. Glad ya took the time to try it.
If you had a larger vehicle, the bigger box and going ported would do the trick. The wiring method was probably the source of your speaker rattles too. (Cool... no damage done)
Well done raider! CLAP
Swez (Old Man Audio)
Replies (40)
raiders98 on 12/6/2008 14:21:45
Or maybe the wires are hitting the VC?
swez on 12/6/2008 17:19:35
It could be either or both and a few other things too.
Cone whop is caused by over-excursion. (Meaning, the cone is going past its normal excursion limits and the voice coil is smacking into the bottom of the pole piece plate) This will eventually deform the coil former and seize up the cone.
To test for this, depress/express the cone manually with your fingers and feel for drag or scraping in both inward and outward travel. If you note scrapping or a rub, something is wrong with the coil former or charred coil wiring.
If you hear a sharp "Brappp" sound at any time, the cone is getting too much power and not enough back pressure to hold it in check. A smaller box or less power should cure that.
"Lead slap" is also common in subs that are not designed well enough to prevent it. (Rare in Kicker subs) Here, the tinsel leads hit the cone and a slapping sound is heard when played hard. Some of the high excursion sub makers use small lengths of felt on the back side of the cone to dampen the noise.
Newer sub designs, actually attach the lead wires to the spider and just enough slack in the leads to allow the cone to flex w/o slapping.
In your case, I'd look at a smaller box for this sub. (3-4 cf) If the sub has not been damaged already, a smaller sealed box should give good bass and more back pressure to keep the cone in check. If you still want to use the current box, add filler boards to decrease internal air space. This will make a smaller internal air space and brace the panels against panel rattles as well.
Comments?
Swez
raiders98 on 12/6/2008 23:15:45
Will a smaller box sound better?
Cause I have nothing against going smaller
raiders98 on 12/6/2008 23:34:10
BTW i manually pressed it up and it felt just fine, moved smoothly.
ttocs on 12/6/2008 23:35:32
I have had problems before with speaker wires hitting the sub under high excursions and normally try to tie the wires off to prevent it. Try moving the box into a different positions to see if the noise stops. Try lightly pushing on the cone while it is moving to see if the noise gets better or worse.
raiders98 on 12/6/2008 23:39:33
Im gonna check the wires, but is my large box dangerous for my speaker?
swez on 12/7/2008 06:17:42
Quote: "BTW i manually pressed it up and it felt just fine, moved smoothly". That's a good sign!
Yes, a smaller box might be your best answer here. A large box lowers power handling of a given sub, but produces a tad more deep bass too. This sub is rated for about 750 watts RMS. But at high wattage, it needs more internal air pressure to keep the cone in check. (Smaller box, 3-4 cf will help) The box needs to be air tight and not leak.
Finally, large panels need to be braced to prevent panels from resonating. If the panels are not braced well, it will make them flex to a point where they rattle.
Swez
Ash on 12/7/2008 12:09:14
Maximum power handling occurs in the smaller recommended boxes. When digging for deeper bass in large enclosures power handling is compromised quite a bit as well as excursion limitations. It's not hard to bottom out or even damage a speaker in that way. I suggest going smaller as well for with a sub that size you won't miss the lower notes anyway. Too big and you will present muddiness as well as one note bass with the vehicle's transfer function combined.
raiders98 on 12/7/2008 15:49:29
If I build a box using 3/4" MDF that was 22" Wide 22" Tall and 16" deep how would that sound?
raiders98 on 12/7/2008 15:53:14
Would porting my current box fix the problem? Or should I just go for a smaller sealed box. I want it to be loud.
Ash on 12/7/2008 16:19:46
Would have to run some numbers to see what the tonality would be, but that still will depend on the vehicle it's in. Porting may or may not cure it. It all depends on if it's damaged or not. You will have to determine if it is through ways mentioned above, but if it isn't then I would just go with a smaller sealed. The box you are using is at the largest end that's recommended which compromises power handling and pushes it's excursion to it's limits. Not a good combo.
raiders98 on 12/7/2008 16:29:34
Its an an Ext. Cab truck. And I don't think it's damaged because I've pushed on it and it feels smooth and doesn't catch or rub anything. And the SQ is still good.
swez on 12/7/2008 17:35:55
The new sealed box mentioned nets 3.5 cf internal, minus sub displacement. I would shoot for a slightly longer box that nets ~ 4.0 cf after subtracting woofer displacements and any additional bracing used.
Also the front baffle board that holds the sub in place, consider 1" thick MDF here. This is a heavy sub to begin with, so 1" MDF is a good option for rigidity and will not resonate or rattle on deep bass notes either.
Suggestion: L=24" W = 24" D= 18.5" T = .75 MDF
All this nets a 5.0 cf box internally and you have to subtract sub and bracing displacements as well. That should put you in the 3.75-4.0 cf range.
I cannot find the sub displacement number for this sub, but would estimate 0.150 - 0.175 cf. You can add internal bracing parts as needed and that can also shrink the internal air space until you get the sound desired.
Finally, adding some internal sound dampening materials, (Fiberglass insulation or polyfill will help absorb rear cone reflections and muffle any panel rattling you get along the way. See Kicker's box making notes and follew them as needed. You can change H, W and D dimensions as neeed for good fitment. Just not that the larger the enclosre used, power handling drops as well. I think that is the root of your problem now. (Larger box, too much power)
http://www.kicker.com/06/tech-support/manuals/manuals/2008/2008%20L5%20Sub%20c01%20web.pdf
Swez
raiders98 on 12/7/2008 20:14:05
If i decide to go with the sealed box im gonna use your dimensions Swez. I'm also up to a ported box though if you think it would be louder. What do you think i should do? Ported or sealed at about 3.75-4 Cu. ft. I want it loud
ttocs on 12/7/2008 20:30:41
a ported box is not just as simple as pokin a hole in the box, it takes a little more time to design it and a little more skill to construct it but a properly built ported box should be louder then a sealed box. It will not sound as good, but it will be louder.
raiders98 on 12/7/2008 23:01:07
I know it's alot harder to build than a sealed box, and i know the port has to be a precise length depending on the frequency it's tuned to. but I'm up for the challenge. Any help with dimensions would be great.
swez on 12/8/2008 00:11:24
A Ported sub offers about +3dB more SPL, but only at the port tuning zone. For guys who want accuracy and a tight bass sound, we go sealed. If you want to go ported, use the recommeded dimensions off Kicker's web site link from above.
A few years back, (2001?) when the original Square subs Solo's came out, I demo'd them in a sound room. They had a pair of 15's in 6 cf ported boxes and each run off its own Kicker amp. (Kx-750's I believe)
The demo room was about 150 sq ft and maybe a 7 foot high ceiling. As the jack-ass salesman dialed up the bass, ceiling tiles and lamp fixtures came down from the suspended ceiling. Demo amps mounted on the adjacent walls, fell off their mounts and hit the floor as well. Was I impressed at the bass? Yes, but ol Jack just trashed about $1,800.00 of gear in a 2-minute demo. (Sharp dude huh?) LOL
Also, have fabricated and installed many Pro-Line systems for a few years (10 years) with my brother. He's had some pretty strong systems to build and install at night clubs, bars, live concerts and now commercial systems are his bread and butter.
Yep, my brother has run the game from many angles and I chose car audio for a niche hobby and source of income when times were better. It's been an interesting trip to say the least. However, IMHO... there's nothing more aggravating to sit at a stop light in heavy traffic, listening to some A-hole's boom car/truck, some 200 feet away. (Makes one want grab a tire iron, find the offending A-hole and smash his wind shield out as Mr. A-Hole, is invading others/my rights to a quiet commute after a long day at work)
Yeah, enjoy the music, but do it where others who don't have to put up with it too. Seems kinda harsh huh? Well, it's because too many do not have self-control and inflict their noise pollution on those who desire a quiet commute and just want to catch the news or music to calm them down after a very long day at work.
Keep that in mind as you go. Yes, I like a good bass-jones fix at times too. But only when I get away from others and do not invade their rights too. Be mindfull that others may not share our interests and enthusiasm for sonic overloads. Keep it under wraps or someone will take his wrath out on your windshield or worse. (End rant)
Word up,
Swez
raiders98 on 12/8/2008 17:47:53
I'm not out to annoy people or be heard from a mile away. I think im going sealed...
swez on 12/8/2008 19:14:03
Hey Raider,
Did not mean to sound off at you personally... it was just a generlized statement/rant about how too many guys thump the streets at night and in heavy traffic. If my mirrors are shaking and the boom car is 50 feet away, I take issue with that kind of behavior. It gives "car audio" a bad rap and police will take action, write a ticket or impound the vehicle if there are multiple violations on record. Yep, they do not mess around after the first verbal warning is logged.
Also, part of me is curious... "Whatcha got going in the bass system? It sounds good and I'm into that to a degree... mind showing me your rig? Hum, not a bad choice on products and you're install work is very good....nice work"!
The guys that gets my goat... A young bass-head pulls into 7-11 or a gas station with his system smacking out some serious SPL. He leaves the car/truck running and goes inside to get who knows what. Everybody in the whole parking area is beetching it up and want to choke the dumb bell, take his keys or bash his windows out. (Who can blame them?)
Yea, have seen that deal many times and just bite my tongue most times or will wander over to said punk kid and say... "Son, your system rocks pretty good... but not here OK"? That's usually enough to get the point across and he says... "Oh, sorry... I just wasn't thinking". The end.
That's what I am really talking about here. (Total lack of regard for others who don't enjoy his noise) Nothing personal in the least toward you! SMILE
Swez
PS Would most challenge a guy that's 6'4" tall, 230 lbs and speaks in a quiet yet determined voice? Not one has yet in 8 years. That's cool and they know they are in the wrong and nothing more comes from it as he drives away and dials back the thump. OK, problem solved and all is well again. Peace has been restored! LOL
Some people just don't realize that others do not appreciate their antics. Hey, we don't need that crap at some kids' ego issues. Save the SPL for dB drags, dialing in a system or out in the middle of nowhere. Thank you very much for understanding the obvious. CLAP
raiders98 on 12/8/2008 20:44:16
I know it wasn't towards me. And I really don't want to be shaking stuff from 50 feet away. Did shake my windows on my house once though, but since then I've never turned it up that loud. I think a smaller nice sealed box will do me good. I'm thinking around 3.75 cu. ft.
raiders98 on 12/8/2008 22:26:55
Do you think you could help me get my dimensions right? I want the most power out of it so small sealed like you mentioned earlier. My max dimensios are 18" Deep 25" Tall and 25" Wide.
Victor on 12/8/2008 22:45:08
When we talk about trouble shooting... one needs the entire configuration of the system.. not just the sub and its enclosure details...
meaning everything........ beginning from the HU to the RCA's, cabling, battery, alt, amps, speakers etc...
Can someone tell me how much power this sub is getting ????
This sub can very well handle 750wrms in a 6 cu.ft sealed enclosure ...
the trade off's would be poor transient response... power handling should not be an issue.. this is a very sturdy sub, with good built quality.
This is the manual to the L7 15"
http://www.kicker.com/06/tech-support/manuals/manuals/2008/2008%20L7%20Sub%20c01%20web.pdf
I see something else, other than the size of this enclosure..
although if you wanna go with a smaller enclosure ... a 4.5 cuft would suit this sub pretty well ...
Victor...
PS: disconnect all other speakers and just play the sub ... note what happens ...
dial down the gain a tad bit and note
change the orientation of the sub and note ( horizontal and vertical )
next .. wrap the enclosure with thin plastic sheet... ( leave the sub open )... if there are leaks in the enclosure, you will easily notice the plastic reacting at that particular point...
disconnect sub and play other speakers one by one... note what happens.
are your rear speakers covered at the back ? does the sub fire directly into the speakers ?
take the box outside the vehicle and then note
take the sub outside the enclosure.. and disconnect all wires.. take a AA battery and connect each coil one after the other to the +ve and -ve of the battery... you will hear a thud... is it clean or can you hear the rattling..
do all the above and note your observations here.... help us help you COFFEE
raiders98 on 12/8/2008 23:12:52
I'll do what I can tomorrow but for now I can tell you it is powered by a Hifonics Bxi 1206 D Which supposibly puts out 1200 watts rms...Im using a 6 gauge wiring kit by Scoche. I know I need 4 Gauge, I'm upgrading to that as soon as I get some money. I'm using a sony HU. Battery is kind of old and extremely low, I need to drive it w/o music and charge it. Alt. is stock. The sub is facing towards the front of the truck because that was the only way the box would fit. Speaker wiring is 16 gauge (too small I know). The rear speakers are all clear from the sub, one is about 5" away though. This is all in a 1999 Dodge Dakota Ext cab on my backseat.
Victor on 12/8/2008 23:44:09
1200wrms gets a bit over head... you need to go 3.5cu.ft if you wanna power that sub with 1200wrms..
is the sub firing into the rear of the speakers ??... although it is clear from the speakers.. 5" is a very small distance... the throw of air that comes from the sub puts immense pressure on the rear of the speakers...
either cover them or change the sub orientation... if it keeps on firing into those speakers.. some day your speakers will give in...
raiders98 on 12/9/2008 00:04:06
No the speaker is facing the side of the box. If youre sitting inside of the truck the sub faces forward and the speaker is on the left of the box facing right.
I do want to build a smaller box, 3.5 like you mentioned.
swez on 12/9/2008 00:17:51
Was reading the specs on the L5 version raider is using. At 6.0 cf, Kicker states a safe power handling number of 450 watts RMS in that size box. As one moves smaller and to a more compact sealed design, the power handling is 750.
In most PU installs, firing the sub upward toward the ceiling works very well. As long as there are no solid surfaces in front of the cone, this works very well. The space you have available, will determine the size of the box to use.
As for sub wiring gage, #12 is fine. (Rated for ~2400 watts AC)
Am inclined to think the sub is getting too much power in a large box. There's not enough back pressure to hold the cone in proper position at high SPL levels.
Although the coils can handle the extra power thermally, the excursion limits are too great and hense the rattles. In such a large box, the bass will go low, but poor transient response and some muddiness are likely as well.
Finally, what is the max distance between the rear seat and back cabin panel? Knowing that, we can look at what length and height is needed to get a good box design. (Up firing is preferred)
Swez
Victor on 12/9/2008 00:34:10
Swez believes its the L5 and I believe its the L7 ...
please clarify ...
anyways... just do all that i mentioned above and note your observations...
then you could finally decide on making a smaller enclosure..
Victor..
swez on 12/9/2008 00:45:42
You are correct Victor... he did call out an L7 at the top of the page. I had a brain-toot while skiming the earlier info. I stand corrected.
Thanks,
Swez
raiders98 on 12/10/2008 22:38:45
The distance from the center console to the back seat is about 18.5" and my current box is 18 and it just fits. This should be enough to up fire it right?
swez on 12/10/2008 23:23:54
Yes, if the sub can be mounted in the up-firing direction, then we just need to look at your max width and height restrictions to determine the best sealed box design to fabricate on round 2.
PU trucks and SUV's offer good bass in the up-firing position. To keep a low profile and still obtain adequate internal space, one can always tuck part of the sub enclosure under the rear seats.
The biggest issue here, is the sub choice. Kicker subs love large enclosures. (Sealed or ported) To get deep lows, a large box is Kicker's main option.
Many sub makers have developed sub designs to fit compact spaces and still provide solid low bass performance. But Kicker has yet not followed that trend. But if the user has the space, the deep bass is very strong with thier parmeters.
raiders98 on 12/11/2008 20:27:29
Well the box its in right now is certainly big. 5.9 cu ft. lol... I dont have really a width or height restriction. As long as there both below 27" it's fine.
swez on 12/12/2008 04:16:15
Ran some numbers and here's something to consider:
W = 18.0"
L = 25.0"
H = 20.0"
You're net internal dimensions = 4.15 cf
By the time we subtract the sub and add panel braces, the actual internal air space will be 3.5 - 3.75 cf. Get out your tape measure and see how that fits the space you have to work with.
Comments?
Swez
raiders98 on 12/13/2008 18:39:07
What do you think about 23 H 20 W 18 D? I found that the L7 15 has a displacement of .16 cu ft
swez on 12/13/2008 19:04:33
That nets 3.8 cf - 0.16 = 3.64 cf. That's not a bad number, but the "H" and "W" ratios would be best to swap if possible. The more air space we have between the woofer cone and a vertical surface, the better.
Can you make the following fit? (External dimensions here)
D = 18"
H = 18"
W = 26"
This equals 3.8 cf internally, minus the sub displacement. A few triangle type braces will help with larger panel bracing and prevent panel rattles. When the braces are added, if you can get 3.5 CF sealed and no rattles, you've done well.
Comments?
Swez
raiders98 on 12/14/2008 17:44:29
Thanks everybody, especially swez, you guys are great. I finished my box. It ended up being roughly 3.6 cu. ft. and nice and airtight :)
swez on 12/14/2008 20:45:56
So Lucy... "try spaining" wha U lurnt in da new box and how it came out betta dan da earlier version. (Not for my benefit, but for those who have been following your progress along the way)
What deed U lurn? LOL
Rickey Ricardo
PS OK... so my Cubana is not so hot, but Ethel and Fred Mertz wanted to know too. ("I Love Lucy", circa early 60's before color TV was available) LOL
SQLThump on 12/15/2008 15:29:54
I'm deducting 50 points from Swez's overall score for a lame Cubano reference......nobody has used a Ricardo line since like the 1800's or something.....gotta whip out the Tony Montana
Joo wana play mayn!?!? Say 'Ello to my oversize subwofer fren! BOOM!!!!
swez on 12/15/2008 17:41:07
Okay... will take the 50 point deduction and just laugh it off.
But, I will borrow a few snippets froM the "Red Green" series":
1. "If it ain't broke... you're not tryin' hard enough"
2. "If the women don't find ya handsome, they should at least find ya handy"
3. "Duct tape is the mirical tool for just about anything that needs fixin' "
4. "Keep you stick on the ice... we're all pullin' for ya"
Wisdom of the ages from "Possum Lodge"! LOL
Swez
PS How's your new sub system sounding these days?
PSS For those who are not yet Red Green fans, look here and LOL as "Old Man Audio" guides:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL8xOXYAE0w&NR=1
raiders98 on 12/15/2008 19:12:30
Things learned from new box.
1. Never ever run your speaker wire through the center of the speaker like I did first time. Pretty sure that caused the rattling.
2. Up firing in truck sounds alot better and louder. And looks better.
3.There is such a thing as too big.
4.There is no such thing as too much silicone when it comes to sealing.
swez on 12/16/2008 16:54:40
Yeah, wiring through the basket is a bad idea.
Hoped the up-firing method would give some nods of approval in your app. Trucks have high ceilings/roof and that helps the bass waves travel better throughout the cabin. Glad ya took the time to try it.
If you had a larger vehicle, the bigger box and going ported would do the trick. The wiring method was probably the source of your speaker rattles too. (Cool... no damage done)
Well done raider! CLAP
Swez (Old Man Audio)
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