Forgive my ignorance, as I am just learning this for the first time, and I need pointers.
I have a stock alternator and battery in my 2002 V6 Chevy Blazer. I have a successfully installed Sony Xplod 52x4 HU using stock wiring. Call me a sucker, but I kept all components Sony Xplod brand; I bought a 3/4 600W A/B amp for my 3-way 50 RMS 6 1/2's (front, 270W max) and 60 RMS 2-way sub & tweeder 6 1/2 crossover combo (rear 300W max), as well as a 1200W 1 channel D class amp for my 300 RMS 12' sub in factory tuned box (1000W max).
I am not interested in shaking walls and shutting down ATMs, I just want clean, strong beats that sound crisp in my truck. I don't plan on ever cranking my system, and my speakers are all mounted in the factory door mounts.
That being said, I was planning on running both amps off the stock alternator, using a distribution block. If I never push this system past RMS (or very little), would I need the battery, alt and cap upgrades, or are my power demands pretty low?
Can I connect both amps to the REM remote line on my HU, or can only one be connected, with the other connected to a manual switch? (OK, just found chain that said daisy chaining these is OK)
Also, should I use the high output speaker leads from my HU to run to my 600W amp, or do I use the front and rear RCA outs, splitting the rear outs to also run to my 1200W amp? Can I use the high output wires for the 4 channel setup and the RCA out for the 1 channel sub? The HU came with the truck, so I don't have the manual, but it appears to have both front and rear RCA, as well as a separate set of mono RCA for a sub? The HU does have a separate gain for a sub.
Would it sound better to run the 6 1/2 subs on low of the 600W amp crossover and use my 3-way 6 1/2 on the low of the external crossovers with the tweeters on the highs? Or is that retarded?
What will get me the best quality sound out of what I have? Or am I fighting an uphill battle with the components I've chosen?
Thank you!
Replies (49)
ttocs on 11/11/2008 11:56:21
welcome to the forum. For a newb you gave a great intro and told us everything we need to know.
Remore wire - You can connect both amps to the single output. after that if there are any other accesoreis to run off that wire I would recomend a relay, we can cross that bridge when we get there.
Rca's vs speaker leads - hands down you will want to use the rca's. It is a cleaner signal for the amps to grab.
Your amp question is not retarded but will make things a little more difficult then you need to. What you are referring to is called bi-amping but the speakers are designed to use the x-over, you will be fine using it.
Sony is not horrible it is just certianly not the industry favorite. I have heard good things about the subs.
SQLThump on 11/11/2008 12:08:04
You seem to be on the right path, but I do feeel sorry for you on equipment choice. It kind of is an uphill battle vs your Sony gear, but a susessful system is 75 percent install and 25 percent equipment choice.
This gear should work decently well if installed properly. Your stock alternator should suffice, but I recomend getting a gel cell battery if you do any audio mods at all, and for all the other benefits that come with. Don't even think about getting a cap, they are a waste of money, unless they are digital, then they are a pretty looking waste of money, If you want to reinforce your charging system, get a upgraded alternator as big as you need.
Use a 4-8 gauge wiring kit, and the best cables you can afford. I like Streetwires power cable and Monster RCA's personally, I sell Streetwires and wouldn't touch their RCAs.......
FYI RMS values are the amount of wattage your amp can continuiosly push. Peak power is the largest amount of power that an amp can push for like a fraction of a second on a test bench, severly overloaded, a few times, before the amp suffers a painful death.
Good amps are CEA complaint and supply both RMS and peak ratings. Great amps are also CEA complaint and do not rate amps on peak power at all, because it really doesnt matter. Fakin the funk amps are not CEA complaint, and usually tout their peak rating like hard fought for badges of honor. Sony falls in the third group. Not meanng to me mean, but it is true. Their speakers and subs follow good suit, but their highest end decks are pretty decent.
Anyway, connect both amps remote leads to the deck, you can run a single wire back and split it out to the amps. Remote wire is practially igsignificant, it does nothing more than tell the amp to turn on and off, so dont worry about getting nice remote wire.
Make SURE you get the best power, ground and RCA cables you can afford. If those still aren't good cables, wait till you can get some. You don't have the leeway in the quality of you gear to not do this. (not like any of us do......)
Connect your front and rear cables to the front and rear on the 4 channel amp, then the cables to your mono amp to the sub channels. If you only have 2 sets, it will probably be rear and sub outs, use Y splitters off the rear channels and send them to the 4 channel, and of course, subs to mono amp.
Dont mess with the crossovers! Put the tweeters and woofers where they belong on the external crossover, the 3 ways on the rear channels, put them all on a highpass filter, set it low as you can without muddy sounding midbass pouring out, and set your subs on low pass with the frequency around80-100hz.
Follow these instructions you may be able to get some decent sound out of less than desireable speakers. Best of luck to you, and welcome to Clubknowledge!
swez on 11/11/2008 14:59:56
Great job outling the project and very good questions asked as well.
As for the technical advice given already, you've got one of our best Pro Installers, (ttocs) to fill in the gaps. SQL filled in even more details and spot on comments as well. It's not just the gear that makes it all come together. It's the skill of the installer and the tools in the HU that make the most impact.
FYI: Many of us shun the newer Sony products as they are not up to par with other makers in the same price range. It's not to say Sony is junk in the car audio realm, but more hype than substance and a lousy tech support system to users.
The "old school" Sony HU's were very prized in their day. But, the past 5 years have brought huge leaps in signal processing technology and some very neat features to mobile audio gear. (New EQ features, audio delay lines and above average HP/LP filters are common in the $350.00 and up range)
Anyway, welcome to CK and as you need help, just ask and others will be ready with helps to keep things on task.
Swez
xmax187 on 11/12/2008 03:55:58
Thanks to ttocs, SQL Thump and swez! I've read a lot of your tips throughout the forums, and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me.
The HU has 3 RCA outs; front, back and (I assume) mono, so I think I will have no problem using only RCAs for everything.
I will do the instal this weekend and let you know how it goes. I am sure I will need help fine-tuning, but you all helped me find my way. I figured the Xplod speakers were more advertising than quality, but I only took into account the RMS ratings, anyway. I got everything pretty cheap for new, and for as low as I will be keeping the volume (compared to most), I am hoping these components will suffice. You'd probably never know I had so much gear if I was parked next to you, and I am sure a lot of you would be thinking "what's the point?!?" LOL
Thank you all, again!
Victor on 11/12/2008 06:05:36
Welcome to CK
You should also check the article section for a lot more information, on how to set your system correctly...
Victor...
swez on 11/12/2008 10:53:53
Exactly! The install is only one step in the process. The tweaking that comes later will get you home for sure.
Sony speakers have decent Mid-Bass for most drop in installs. They are not "top drawer" like some models, but with some careful tuning later, this install could be pretty solid as is.
The Sony HU you mentioned, what is the model number of this one? Would like to see what features it has and how to get the most from it.
Good luck on your initial install,
Swez
xmax187 on 11/12/2008 16:06:36
Thank you swez. My HU is a Sony Xplod CDX-GT400. It came with the truck. I read it has front+rear/sub switchable. Does this mean if I run the sub out, I have to switch between my sub and my rear speakers when I want the extra bass?
My idea was to use the subs of my 6 1/2 components in the rear doors, the 4-way 6 1/2 in the front doors with the tweeters in the dash, so I could still have bass behind me if I had to take out the sub to haul stuff (it is a truck, afterall). And when the 12" is thumping, I couls have my tweeters and 4-ways surrounding me in highs and mids. It seems this was how it was wired when I took the old speakers out. Is this where "bi-amping" would come into play?
I admit I have no idea what I am doing, so I trust your expertise.
To pull off what I described, would I then have to split the rear outs between the component subs and the 12", thus having to manually turn the 12" sub off? Or is this a waste of time? Is it best to run the components in the front, the 4-ways in the back and the sub on the sub out, losing the 4-ways when I run the sub?
Thank you SQL Thump; I hadn't thought much about the wiring components, and now that I picked up the Monster RCAs, I can see the foil wrap is the reason for the better results. I obviously had poor quality wires, and I will take them back for upgrades. I plan to take out all the interior and trim to do a complete re-wire, and I would have an ulcer if I found out the wiring ruined the entire project. I was also just going to twist and shrink the speaker connections, but now I am going to solder everything.
swez on 11/12/2008 22:08:58
Here's some basic info on that HU series:
http://www.xplodsony.com/article/Sony+National+CDX-GT+Series+CD+Receivers
I don't have time/mental focus right now to go into more details on this plan, but will get back to this after the work week ends. It's crunch time at work now and long hours and lots of extra work activities drain the body as the week goes on. (Dang, am I too old for this line of work or what?)
Will try to give this more attention on the weekend, but others can chime in as they see fit.
Swez
Swez
ttocs on 11/14/2008 01:10:22
do not split the componants. They will sound the best with the tweeter closer to the woofer. I would put the componants up front and the coax in the rear if you can.
xmax187 on 11/14/2008 06:04:19
Thank you for the help everyone! I will tear everything out tomorrow and follow the advice all of you have given me; component woofers in the front doors, tweeters in the dash, crossovers behind the dash, coaxials in the rear doors, sub in the back, Monster RCAs to the amps, 4 awg (fused at the battery) into a 4/8 fused block, power to the right side of my console and RCAs to the left side. I am going to take great care in the layout of the wiring, so that this truck will be ready for plug-n'-play upgrades, should I or the next owner need it.
I'll hit you up when I have everything in. Thanks again!
SQLThump on 11/14/2008 10:51:13
Sweet dude. But, again take our advise and hook up the the components with them in the front, both the mid and the woofer on the crossover, and the 6x9's in the rear.
Thanks for taking my advise on the wiring, you will thank yourself later. But try to run your RCA's and power wires as far away as possible, taking care that they don't cross over each other.
Keep your ground cables as short as possible. Swez will tell you under 3 feet, but I would go under a foot if possible. I run 8 inch ground cables in my Exploder, and I do this so the ground remains as efficent to completing the circuit as possible and this helps keep the circuit niose free as well.
Make sure that whatever you ground to is solid metal that is a good part of the cars body. Seat belt and seat bolts work really well. Sand or grind off all of the paint that is present to give the best contact point possible. Save a bit of the 4 gauge and wrap it in black tape, and use it for the ground cable for optimum results.
Let us know who it turns out man......
swez on 11/14/2008 11:31:21
Also, if you have to cross power feed lines with audio signal cables, (At the amplifiers) do so at 90 degree angles. This allows the lowest cross-sectional area of DC cables to disurb, (add noise) to low power AC signal cables.
As for your Component speakers, use the crossovers as designed. Like SQLThump mentoned, keep them close as possible and in the same vertical plane.
Most guys filter the full range speakers at 60-80 Hz. The sub(s) take care of the deep lows. When/if you remove the sub(s), expect a drop in the deep lower bass.
Other than that, you are on track with inputs so far.
Swez
xmax187 on 11/14/2008 17:16:01
I am glad I checked in, because I missed the part about the grounds being short and 4 AWG. I will do so, and I think I worked out a way to avoid crossing the power and RCAs. I've mapped out all the wiring, and I think I have a very efficient layout.
The thing that I am so impressed by is the amount of pride you all take in your acquired knowledge, and the fact you share it, with gusto, speaks volumes for your character. I will do you all proud, and possibly be able to pass on what you've taught me, changing the world one distorted, overloaded, tinny system at a time :)
SQLThump on 11/14/2008 18:32:48
Word man. These little steps will help ensure your system will be of optimum performance.
About the pride of knowledge and sharing.....This is Clubknowledge, I learned enough about car audio here and from a homie that I was able to get a job in the field at a top notch store with no retail expeirence.
And stick around if you really want to learn some wicked cool stuff. Trust me, if you enjoy car audio now, wait till you find out how addictive it is. It's like crack, but constructive.......
xmax187 on 11/14/2008 21:34:28
I can see what you mean. This has all the elements I love about physics, because it's all about the challenge of dialing in the numbers; if you do your math right and control the factors, you can both predict and achieve the desired effect. In this case, I will hear, and feel, if I am successful.
I can't wait to tune my system once I get it all in. Tesla believed the Earth itself has a frequency, and if we tune into it perfectly, we could unlock limitless energy.
swez on 11/15/2008 00:55:02
It's refreshing to meet and assist a fellow who is primed for success in this project. As you read, install and tweak the system in a methodical process, the results will be well above average.
Yes, CK is all about sharing knowledge on many topics and we all love to see fresh blood in the mix. (It has been very slow here and other sites of late as people are cutting back on such projects when money is tight)
Many of the Gold's have been here a long time and are either in the business of Mobile Electronics or have done some extensive audio work in Pro and Commercial projects as well. Our talent pool is deep and well stocked with skilled people from many backgrounds. Today, we are still in the game while other sites folded. Why? Because we all have a passion for this field and enjoy serving and teaching others that come for advice.
A few years ago, this site was buzzing with new people. Today, the picture has changed a bit. Some Golds have moved on and are doing other things. But at the core, we still have key players to meet others needs as they come in. Tell your friends about us and let them come and learn and participate as well.
Finally, we do take appropriate pride, (Not arrogance) in offering high quality technical support for those who rely on that experience. As you learn & grow, who knows... you too could become a team member if you wish.
Swez
PS Note the absents of "product bashing and personal attacks" toward our readers and/or internal team players? That's what makes CK so unique. We treat others like we want to be treated. Those who stir up conflict or attempt to spam or give out bad advice, are quickly dealt with or blocked from this site. Yes, we've been through all that and more to be sure. But, after 10 years on the Internet, our standards remain high and untarnished. CLAP
SQLThump on 11/15/2008 14:39:51
No bashing, product trashing, or arrogance was a long fought battle on the part of Old Man Audio and thoughts of Walt's wraith over my going on 3 years here.......Moral of the story, you don't want to hear what I am thinking or saying on the other side of this cable a good 25% of the time.
I walked my way through the weeds as a car audio brokeass, trying to beat out whoever is trying to outbump me. I have seen, and for a good while owned, the ghettoest systems that ever took power through a voice coil. Those years sucked............but I through many months of somehow being skilled and ghetto enough to take literally whatever I could get my hands on and beating out 95% of people how to do some mad wicked installs.
In this process, I developed a lengthy list of "Blacklisted" gear. I kind of hate to say it, but Sony is at the top of that list, not so much due to poor quality, (which it is down there, but not at the bottom) but more to the case of their poor products and excellent marketing.
They sell more crap gear to poor consumers then anybody else, because their products look "hip," their decks have a few cool, but a lot of useless features that seem cool, and their hugely inflated power ratings, (1000 watt 4 channel with a 25amp fuse? yeah right!) and super low pricing that makes it a smokin "to good to be true" deal.
And their marketing is second to none. They have such a huge rep from all the other products sell (and rightfully so, their is a ton of Sony electronics in my house, which I a very loyal to) that people make a bad assumption that their car audio gear ust rock or something. They market very well to the younger crowd through magazines like "Import Tuner" and "Super Street" with products that look so hot they burn off the pages.
But when it comes down to it, they're car audio gear is fakin the funk like crazy, poor, unfortunate souls fall for it, and end up buying new gear later, or worse, not caring about the hobby (which is a cross between a sport and war for me), and then everybody suffers, especially poor Old Man Audio who sits next to these kids in traffic pumping nasty, distorted sounding gangsta rap into his PG freindly world. ANGRY
Moral of the story, like Flava Flav says......"DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!" THINKGRINTHINK
Now, past that huge rant, and into why I love CK....People like you Xmax187, come in slightly educated, very level headed and prepared to learn. I don't care that you're whole system is my least favorite brand, for two reasons. I want you to have a tight system no matter what, I want to teach, you want to learn, and above all, INSTALL IS 75% OF A SUCCESSFUL INSTALL!! Unless your talking like some of the flagship Focal's I sell to some Walmart 6x9's, then its about 50/50....GRIN Those 165KP's are turning e into a snob
FYI, practically nobody here has super top shelf gear here. Not to say most of us don't have some nice gear, we do, but nobody here has a system that is insanly budget unfreindly. We will never judge you on your gear purchases, only your ability and willingness to learn and the productivity of your gear selection. Most of us are more impressed by an efficent, well installed rig than something so outlandish that a quartet of 300 amp alternators can't power it to full potentiall.
End Rant! Finish your install already, I wanna see it!
swez on 11/16/2008 01:54:40
Oh brother... SQL is on a "sugar-buzz" and his rant is hilarious to read. That just shows the passion he has in his steps for Car Audio.
I would agree that Sony has great marketing presents and they hype/dupe buyers with a brand name that most will agree is well above average. The problem as I see it, "Mobile Audio" is not a big money maker for Sony and they try to sell the hype based on other products they excel at, but as for support after the sale, forget it! This company is too large and unresponsive to car audio gear. (Basically, the buyer is on their own)
Anyway, we'll walk ya through the steps as needed and yes, you will like the end results later.
Comments?
Swez
ttocs on 11/16/2008 08:00:05
put the redbull down man............. but he did hit the nail on the head.
I really don't hate sony much. People like them because it is a name they know to be reliable as they are. When someone gets into car audio and there are new names like alpine, clarion, kenwood and soo many others that they do not know why wouldn't they lean towards sony?
Now for the top shelf gear remark, whatchu talkin bout sql? Just kidding. I know I do not represent the average person on here after all the experience I have. I have installed enough junk in my own car, and waaaay too much into customers cars(on their orders) to know my way through the gear.
swez on 11/16/2008 12:40:58
LOL... Sony HU's are not all that! (Good or bad) My biggest gripe is the lack of tech support the buyer gets for his gear and $$ spent. The upper end HU's are pretty good in all. However, their amps and speakers/subs are horribly over-rated.
As an experienced installer, you know the drill better than most. It's not the gear used, but the skill of the installer to obtain the best results possible with what is on hand. (Customer's buy list is not the key factor)
Swez
xmax187 on 11/16/2008 21:14:02
I have a new found respect for all of you; it is a bear to keep everything neat, tidy and looking pro. It doesn't help that I live in an apartment complex, and I don't have the luxury of leaving my truck in pieces. Every day I am affraid some teenage jackass will smash my $300 hatch window to take my $150 amp & sub :(
Also, my wife has been...well, I am sure a lot of you could relate to the attitude some women will have toward a man who spends more time with his ride than with her. So I only spent a few hours on and off, appeasing my wife, helping with the kid, etc, etc.
Here is where it stands; I have the power and REM run through the carpet right down the center console, where I mounted the block under the trick compartment for easy access to blown fuses. The RCAs are fed along the driver's side, and I've wired one door. Holy crap! I feel I have been on this project a combined 15 hours, and I am not even half way finished! It doesn't help that everytime I take a break, I have to throw everything in the truck.
I don't know how you all do it in a day, seriously! In my case, extra hands would help, and so would experience. I am fumbling around trying to get the wiring to fit through the rubber tubing in the doors, but I finally found I can manage with a straightened coat hanger and the end of the wire attached to it with electrical tape. The other doors will be much easier, once I get to them. I haven't decided if I am going to drill through the firewall, or drill through the door frame, where I found a quick access into the cab. There is just too much BS in the way if I go through the firewall.
For what I have done already, I can see this is going to look slick. There won't be a bit of wiring showing, save for the ends poking out behind the back seats, where I will have the amps mounted, anyway. This setup will also alow me to run everything in without having to cross the power & RCAs. I don't mind the time it's taking, because I know in the end, it will be done right, and it will be easy to swap out equipment.
When I bought the Sony gear, I knew I wasn't getting the best, just the cheapest. Well, I know you guys can get better deals, so I am sure I will hit you up if I want to upgrade. I am sure what I have will suffice for my needs, though. Should I start itching for higher quality, I would appreciate your opinions and suggestions :)
Give me until next weekend to have everthing hooked up, but if you have a suggestion for getting the power into the cab, I would greatly appreciate it!
Thank you!
xmax187 on 11/17/2008 19:51:19
I just read swez' article on SS filters. It reminded me of the first "serious" car system I heard when I was a teenager. I don't recall the gear, but I remember the guy telling me he was "pushing under 1 Ohm", and I could FEEL his bump from about a 1/2 mile out.
Would I need an SS filter in my little system, or would it be built into the gear I already have?
Interesting stuff!
swez on 11/17/2008 23:00:18
If you run a sealed sub enclosure, no need for an SSF. If you select a port tuned enclosure, then a SSF is recommended to protect the woofer(s) from damage, below the port tuning frequencies.
Most quality sub amps have SSF's in them already. Some are a fixed value and others are variable. It depends on the amp maker and mostly found in amps that pound out 500 RMS and higher wattages.
Swez
ttocs on 11/18/2008 02:24:36
Ah, I have time to work on my car as I am single and have no children. The dog likes to keep me company while I work and also doubles as my personal 15 lb security guard. She is the only b****h that I let tell me what to do......
Runnin wires through doors, I hate that and had to do it this weekend. We didn't have coat hangers around the bay so we used old antennas to fish wires through but it was the same thing. All of these things get easier and fast the more we do it. The first wire run though the door probably took a good 3 hrs right? What about the 2nd?
xmax187 on 11/18/2008 05:41:38
I was going to get more done last night, but I live in the Santa Clarita Valley, CA, and we have 2 wildfires here which have brought in some smoke that I must be allergic to. I was sick all day yesterday, and to top it off, our doctor told us our daughter is allergic to eggs and dogs, and I have 2 dogs! I'm hoping it's the eggs causing her eczema, because my dog has been with me 14 years, and I can't just abandon him now! Any experiences on this one? Murphy's freakin' law, I'm tellin' ya.
I haven't gotten to wiring the front doors, yet. Fishing the wires through the back doors didn't take too long, but it was nearly a straight shot. I did zip tie them to the door to keep them from the window mechanism, and got a handfull of grease for my trouble ;) The front doors will be the real test, as it is more of a curve, and there isn't open access from the frame. I'll let you know how it goes.
I think the amps I have are not equiped with the SSF :( I can see Sony puts it on all their newest models, but I think I have a 2007. I will look everything over again when I get home. If I don't have the SSF, what is a safe level to run without it? I thought 15Hz was OK?Again, I am not looking to win any competitions here, but I certainly don't want to frag my sub! Here is a link I found for SSF; http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?section=12
Or do you have better recommendations?
I want to get this right the first time 'round
swez on 11/18/2008 11:05:00
Fishing wire into door jamb boots can be a big hassle. The passenger side is not as difficult as the driver's side as there are often less wires in the ribbed conduit. (A thin yet flexible wire will work well if you start from the inner door panel, use a little soapy water and a light gage Poly-cord to aid the process)
To save considerable aggravation, we often use the stock OEM speaker wires into the front door panels and split them with the passive crossover if your OEM speakers have only one wire pair. (A lot easier)
It easier to do the passenger side first, just to get a feel for the steps. If you get that right, the driver's side will be much easier. (THINK "SLICKUM Juice" as you attempt this manuver)
Swez
SQLThump on 11/19/2008 17:11:05
Must be a drag having a wife and kids to slow down your install......
But don't feel bad on your install time, a job like that would take one of my installers nearly a full shift with no distractions to finish. Also, My system took me the better part of two full days off to do everything I have done so far, and I am absolutely nowhere close to done, and thats before I plan on ripping everything out to redo my system with mad insanity.
I use a lubed up piece of bent out wire coathanger to run through door jamb boots. Very rigioriously tape the wire and hanger together, lube it up with something liqiud. (don't ask what I used, but nearly anything will work) and gently push the hanger through.
Take your time, enjoy it, and that will net you the best results. I do have a dissagreement with Swex, stock wiring sucks, and I lose sleep at night thinking about how evil "9 wire conductors" are. For best results, run 12AWG to the crossovers, 18-20AWG to the tweeters, and 14AWG to the midwoofer. Before anybody says it is overkill, I'm not thinking/caring about how much power is transferred, but more the size of the wavelength, how tall a full range signal is, and that splitting to two smaller, different range cables ensures proper signal wavelength height, ease of transfer, and that each driver recieves a proper, relative amount of power.
xmax187 on 11/25/2008 06:13:48
New issue! I'm still not finished, but I have nearly everything hooked up. Nothing is powered, yet, but my battery is toast. I know I ran it down leaving the doors open, but I am having to jump it everytime I want to start the truck. I am going to remove it and set it on a trickle charge overnight. Hopefully that's it, but if not, is it possible I broke another power wire or something, and it is grounding out and draining battery?? Can my car alarm drain the battery, if the lights are off, but the doors are open??
Victor on 11/25/2008 07:22:51
check this out...
http://www.flatwirestore.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=FW
Sweet... aint it ?
swez on 11/25/2008 10:14:19
Let's call your battery toast if it's the original factory one. A good OEM battery lasts about 4-6 years at most. After years of use, the cells collect debris from the lead plates and finally short out one or more cells. This is totally normal and a trickle charger will not help a shorted cell. It's time for a new one.
May I suggest an Optima Gel Cell as your next one? The Optima Yellow Top is superior to lead-acid type batteries. It's a deep-cycle version that is well suited to car audio upgrades and can take over 300 deep discharges and come back for more. (A normal car battery can take 4-5 deep discharges before it will fail) See the difference?
Alarm systems do pull a small amount of current as they poll each protect circuit in the systems they monitor. However, if the vehicle is used regularly, you'll not see a problem. If it sits for weeks w/o running the engine, you may find the battery low and the vehicle may not start. (If your truck has a "load leveler" function, it will also deplete the battery when not driven for a while)
Finally, when working on a vehicle for extended periods of time, it's best to disconnect the battery or use a trickle charger to keep the battery up to snuff. The interior lamps are a drain and will eventually draw the battery down enough to require a jump.
Swez
PS If you think there is a short or considerable power drain in the mix, you can tell as soon as you disconnect the NEG battery post. If you note a weak spark when disconnecting the terminal, that's normal. However, if the spark is notable, there's a big draw happening and needs to be located and fixed. Most guys can find this as they pull fuses. Once the right fuse/fuses are pulled, the drain goes away.
The other way is to monitor current draw at the battery with an ammeter. Once the offending circuits are disconnected, the power drain is minimal/gone and the problem can be isolated. Got all that?
PSS Being a family man and having a hobby like this, can be a real juggling act of time, $$ and a source of real heatburn for your lady and kids. All these things and more are pulling at your pant legs, all at the same time and sooner or later, tempers may flare.
Yes, all men need some "Cave time" to relax and unplug from the daily rat race. However, women need our support and attention as well. May I suggest that you plan a date night out with your lady and make all arrangements for a sitter and her favorite place for dinner and a movie? Do this a few times a month and she'll admire you for it.
If not, you could wind up in divorce court, broke, working your tail off to support the family and living in your car. It happens all the time! Have been through that system and men get screwed big time when small children are involved. She gets the house, the kids and all the perks. Men get the shaft and have to pay for it all and hope there's enough left to survive!!! (BTDT and glad it's over) It took 10 years to recover from this one and I'm still one poor dude. Am not bittter for the experience anymore, just more experienced on how this system works. Don't become another casualty in process Okay?
xmax187 on 11/26/2008 12:24:48
Thank you swez! I will take your words to heart. I promised the little lady I would have this install completed Friday, and so she promised to give me the entire day, uninterruped. I will make up for it with a date night, as you suggested. She's been patient, and she knows I am puting her and the baby before the install.
The trickle charge seemed to work, but we shall see. I saw the yellow tops online for $170-$200, so I will see if I can get a wholesale hookup locally. I was a parts installer ("mechanic" seems an overstatement), and I still get industry pricing at some places.
I think my short might be in a harness that zig-zagged across the rear floorboards. I might have damaged something when I ran the power lines. I have 8 hours on Friday, so I will spend an hour ripping everything out, check that harness, and then I have about 6 hours left to mount the speakers and run the power to the battery. I already have the speaker wires in, so I think I should be able to pull this off.
I should be hitting y'all up with good news on Friday night. I'll print out all the articles and archives I can on tuning the system, but I am sure I will have more questions than answers once I have it all hooked up!
Thank you for all your help!
swez on 11/27/2008 03:38:44
That's good news that you'll have Friday to get er done. CLAP Just be realistic about the progress. The Pro installers know many tricks and how to get things done. As a Rookie, it takes ~5 times more effort to learn. (Pulling panels, routing audio and power wires, refitting Aftermarmet speakers and the list goes on)
If you have a shorted wire in the power line, it should blow the inline fuse at the battery. Another thought, if there is a notable current drain in your system, you'll get a pretty good spark when disconnecting the battery terminal. That's the easy way to determine a given circuit is pulling more power than it should. The trick is finding out what circuit(s) is/are doing so and correct as needed.
As for things on the home front, have worked with several older guys with busy schedules, kids and take on this very time consuming hobby. More often than not, it leads to family strife and resentments. Consider breaking things up into small bites that can be done a few hours a week.
Even if it takes 3-4 weeks to pull things together, harmony in the family is job one for any good dad and hubby. "If wifey ain't happy... ain't nobody in the house getting any peace". BTDT... don't go there at all costs.
Cheers,
Swez
PS If you find yourself stuck or getting frustrated at some stage, just put down the tools, walk away, smoke a cigarette, practice yoga, meditate or pray and have a good cup of java to clear the mind. Once you get a fresh picture of things, then go back and work it out.
Yep, this a time tested plan that really works. The mind goes "primative" when flustered or MAD. Once we regain focus and calm down, the brain can create again. hehe (Yes, I have years of practice in this area and "frustration management" is a skill that takes a lot of practice to master) Am still working hard at it to this day, (Age 53)but it's well worth the results! CLAP SMILE LOL
swez on 11/27/2008 08:06:29
Oh, a good way to test for shorts to ground on main power feed lines, would be to pull the fuse and use an ohmeter to test the power wire to a grounded surface. (Engine block or grounding block at the fender well, near the battery are best)
Tech Tip: If the meter reads a few ohms or less, it's likely you have a short in the line. (A pinch point or damaged insulating jacket) If the line is good, the meter will not read anything. (Infinite resistance is the desired reading)
The places most likely to find damaged lines are through the firewall and metal rubs there or trim screws that have broken the inulation of the line. If the problem is severe enough, you'll see charred/melted wire insulation as the main signs of a problem. If you find one, cut off the damaged section and splice as needed. (More details if you find that to be an issue)
Swez
xmax187 on 11/28/2008 08:43:20
Happy Thanksgiving swez, and to all who read! I hope it was a good one!
I appreciate you sharing your wisdom swez, both on the install and on the personal issues. Wow, 53; was your first install a phonograph on a Model T ? JKJKJK!! Couldn't resist, assuming you deal with teens and 20-somethings all day. I feel I am late in the game at 35. If this is it for my midlife crisis (finally getting a bigger system in my truck), then I think my marriage will be ok. Well, as long as I can fight the urge to buy another motorcycle. This system was my trade-off; I figured if I had to trade in my 2 wheels for 4, I should at least enjoy the drive.
swez on 11/28/2008 18:46:43
The team here at CK, gave me the name "Old Man Audio" . There's a reason for it. LOL
Yes, am used to teens, 20 something and every so often, a few 30-ish guys come along as a welcomed reader. Truth is, am still young at heart and plan to stay that way. The best way I see to do that, give useful helps to the young and attempt to teach them to think before they leap. Yep, it's very rewarding too.
Motto to live by: "To have good friends, become one first".
Have been into Car Audio about 10 years now. No, am not a Pro installer like some here, but have done a few nice projects for others and love to see the look on their faces when we wrap things up, tweak things in and dial up the power. That look, high fives and a firm handshake in the end, are all worth the efforts.
Have a twin brother who's been in Pro Audio and now Commercial installs for over 25 years. We've done many big projects as a team and Dale is very inspiring. His work ethic and coaching has served us both well over the years. Having that under the ol belt, shifting to car audio was a natural fit for a good hobby. The components are similar in function, but restricted to 12 volts DC.
Yeah, I really look up to Dale as a best friend and a first rate teacher. He's demanding & precise on the job, but that just brings out the best in my own efforts to fill in the gaps and gain valuable OJT in the process. Yes, he's a tough-minded business man in his own realm. But so am I when it comes down to brass tacks and doing a job to be proud of later. (Not prideful, more like... "Damn, this panned out nicely and a very satisfied client, whan all is done"!)
Oddly, I sense a real and lasting kinship meeting you here. I just know you are going to be an excellent student and successful when all the nuts and bolts come together in time. Don't ask me how this will gel into a great group project... I just know quality people when they come to learn and grow. Don't need the lime-light either. Just watching others grow and get the best result possible, is plenty good enough. (Love watching/helping others learn and grow as they go) Every Gold here has the same general motive... "Plant the seeds of possibility, water with knowledge and let the student grow until the process is finished"!
That's what true teacher's look for... "lead, guide and allow the student to become competent and maybe serve others as they learn and venture out to help others". (All our Golds come in that way) Once they have mastered the basics and get the details well, giving back to others puts them on track if that is their desire. Some do while other hang a while and move on.
Finally, after person has been around a while, some clam up and become cynical or self-absorbed. A few reach out, share thier expieriences and hope it takes root in others. In my younger days, I was a very selfish bone-head and paid a big price for that.
After paying some heavy dues, I choose to offer life-lessons to avoid and the perks that come if we can stay the course. I cannot say I have all the right answers, but have learned a few things from mistakes that others can easily avoid. We all have a set of paths to choose in life. Am tired of learning the hard way and it just come out naturally.
Take what seems fit and go from there! "No man is an Island onto them selves. We all need some perspective and guidance on our oun jouyney/process".
Dave
xmax187 on 12/2/2008 15:56:53
You're definitely a cool head now, and whatever you've been through has taken you, and those you touch, to a better place. Thank you Dave, aka swez, aka Old Man Audio, aka sensei, aka friend.
I have completed the install, though be it messy;
1) My antenna broke out of the HU, but I found the center pin, and I will fix/replace that in the near future.
2) The + mount stripped on my battery. Thankfully it has enough grip to hold tight for now, and worst case scenario, I also have top posts I can utilize.
3) My 4awg grommet wouldn't stay put in the hole I drilled in the frame, so I siliconed the crap out of it.
These being the only snags, everything looks clean, meaning all signs of an install are hidden away. Everything seems to be working well. I am sure it needs serious tweeking, but the bass is pretty strong for only one 12" 300W sub.
I feel I did it right, thanks to you and everyone here. Is there a place to post photos on this site? I don't think the Sony gear sounds all that bad, but I am sure next to any one of your systems it would be lacking. I now have to dial everything in. I will do my best going by the numbers, because I think I am tone deaf. Everything sounds clean, except for a "click" when I make selections on my HU. I never noticed it before, so it might have something to do with the pre-outs or the amps?
I have never been one to blast my stereo, but now I think I have an excuse to ;) I am actually shocked at how many db are coming out of this system :) Like I've said, I'm not looking to win competitions, but it has defnitely surpassed my expectations. Thank you!!
swez on 12/2/2008 19:22:39
The snags are all part of the learning curve when we don't have a set of practiced hands on the project. That's just how one learns at times.
The side mounted GM battery teriminals are a lousy design and there is better hardware out there to use top mounted posts for a cleaner, more reliable job. If you need to go that route, there options for that fix.
Good fix on the firewall grommet. Some kits fit better than others, but as a last resort, what you did should be fine.
I think there are antenna repair parts out there if needed. As long as you can find the right jack and long enough coax on hand, the rest is just a matter or adding a new male jack. (Worst case, remove the OEM antenna and install a cool one as needed.
The "pops" you hear when changing modes, could as simple as regrounding the HU or adjusting amp gains a tad as well. Aftermarket HU's work best when we hardwire the ground to the floorpan or firewall and do not use the factory harness ground at all. (Can explain in detail as needed...just ask)
Finally, it's a true blessing to work with guys like you. Appreciate the kudos and all, but am more of a "teacher/guide" personality who likes watching/guiding others to success in the background. When others get it right, everybody wins.
Thank you for the kind words! You have made a tough work week, into a pre-summer night on a favorite trip to the river, fishing for trout and Smallies. "Fish on" dude and it's a tackle tester too. (Land and released to get bigger later) Woo-hoo, she's a beauty too!
Dave ><)))> and ><> too!
xmax187 on 12/4/2008 12:14:44
Thank you Dave! I will re-ground the HU this weekend, and I found a new antenna adapter. If the +post gets loose, I will get a top mount adapter, but I think it is holding fine for now. I also thought, in a pinch, I could take a few copper strands from a spare piece of wire, lay them across the threads, and this might give it a little more grip. Can you tell I have had to improvise a lot on the fly when it comes to my hoopties?
I think my charging system is sufficient for my system, because I'm starting fine, and I am not seeing any dimming of the headlights. Obviously, if my battery dies again, I will invest in the yellowtop, but I'd prefer to save that $180 if I don't need it.
I can't believe how good this system sounds! I mean it hits harder than I would have ever imagined. I am sure everyone here would be proud of the job I did, thanks to everyone's help, of course! I started pushing the volume more and more over the last few days, and at half volume the rearview shakes like crazy! I had it at 30% with the windows up and I turned some heads :)
It sounds clean, too, and that's without any equipment to dial it in. I played it by ear, and I think I did a good job. I might even take it by The Sound Man to see what they think of my work :) They've already seen me enough times buying little things I kept finding I was missing for the install.
Overall, I think the wife is even happier than I am, because I won't be spending any more nights in the parking lot :)
swez on 12/5/2008 01:00:56
Well done program and it did not take all that long either. CLAP
Yep, improvising on the task on the fly, is always a good thing. Was thinking of suggesting some fine gage soldering wire on the threads to fill the gaps. Both the battery and solder are high in lead content, so "galvanic effects" would be minimal.
When mixing certain metals and electrical current, certain metals form corrosion, (Oxides... a form of rust) that break down conductivity. Keep an eye on that every so often and look for any odd chemical reactions at the terminal posts.
OEM batteries only last 4-5 years at best. If you live in an area where winters are mild, that extends battery life. In regions where winters are long and very cold, most OEM batteries die in mid-winter. It's not fun to swap a battery in sub-zero weather.
My work van is a 2003 Chevy Express w/ 125,000 miles on the original battery. It's on its last legs. Fleet vehicles that need to start 25 or more times in a shift, take a real beating. I told the owner this one is about to give up. Just give me some cash and I'll buy and install a new one before the "really cold weather" sets in. (Hehe... will they listen?)
I hope so as I don't wish to be stranded 100 miles out on a given route with a dead battery. "Hello... AAA, need road service in the dead of winter"! (I want to avoid that scenario if at all possible) GRIN
By all means, run buy your local shop and they may give you some pointers on dialing in your amp settings. If you've been a steady customer, many shops will do this for you free.
When re-grounding the HU, make it to bare metal. (Dash, floor pan or firewall) That usually clears up noisy systems and avoids "ground loops" that can ruin sound quality. (Pops, Alt whine noise and other related issues) If that does not cure it, dial back on amp gains as they may be set too high and amplify noise with the audio content) There are some tips in our FAQ & DIY section to help ya along.
"No more nights in the parking lot"... LOL It sounds like you have a very patient and understanding wife. As mentioned before, take yourselves out on a "date night" a few times a month. Just arrange a sitter for the baby and a nice meal, some time to talk about how things are going at home and such. She'll love being treated like a "special date" and you'll both stay on the same page as time goes on. ;-)
Dave
PS Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all! May you be blessed with good health, adequate financials and a deeper level of bonding as a family. CLAP Am glad we met on CK!
xmax187 on 12/8/2008 04:59:50
Happy Christmas and Merry New Year! I hope it is joyous for all! I hope your boss has sprung for a new battery Dave. Getting stuck in the cold is not cool. That's why I moved to SoCal ;)
I think I have lucked out on this entire install, because whatever I've broken, I have either fixed or replaced with little problems. That, and the wife is thrilled I don't have to ditch her hours at a time. Now I steal my tuning moments between the home and office ;)
I grounded the HU, but I will have to try it again. It still pops, though it is less. There is so much BS under the dash, it makes it difficult to find a close and solid ground. I'm going to run a longer wire and drill a new mount on the frame.
I have tuned in the sub and amp at around 80Hz with about 50% bass boost and 75% power level. Its a 1-channel D class 1200W amp (330RMS) with a 1000W 12"sub (300RMS)
I have both the high and low filters off on the 4 channel class AB 600W (4x55W). I have the levels all the way down to .3 on this amp, and the speakers seem like they are already powered to peak performance (50W 4-way 6.5s and 60W component 6.5s). Does that sound right, to have enough power coming out at .3??
I have the HU tuned to +10dB Low, +6dB High, +2dB Mid, and the sub level cranked all the way up.
The system thumps really hard if you're in the driver's seat, but I think I may be over doing it a bit. Should I have the bass boost all the way down? Does my power level sound about right? I'll read some more articles, but I'd like to know if I am close?
swez on 12/8/2008 06:14:18
It seems your HU ground is not there yet and the gain structure between HU and amps are a bit off. When combined, you'll get noise amplified with the audio signals this way.
With your HU set to flat response, ("0 dB boost or cut at all EQ settings) and the HU volume at ~80%, reset your amp gains so they are clean and balanced as well as possible.
I generally start with the full range amp setting and no bass. After the Mid/Highs sound good, then bring up the bass amp gain to fill in the lows. Some CD cuts are really "hot" and juiced with extra bass. (Rap and Hip-Hop especially) Other types of music are more balanced like Jazz, Pop/Rock and Country. (Some of the cleanest mixes are Country music) No joke! Hank Jr., Alabama and most female vocalists top the list.
As for rock, Pink Floyd's "Dark side of the Moon" are very well mixed and some of the older Chicago hits too. If you like Steely Dan or Super Tramp, they too are mixed very well too.
Your HU settings are a bit high too. Bass at +6dB, Mids flat to -3 dB and Treble at +3dB should cover things well. The bass boost on your sub amp should be minimal too. (+6dB tops) The rest is all about gain setting your amps and crossovers. (80 Hz is about right for most Mobile Audio settings)
Since we cannot hear your system, you have to be the judge or stop by that local shop and let their top tech do this with you. Flip him some coin for his time & expertise. ($20 bucks, a case of his favorite brew or buy him a good lunch) That will motivate most guys and won't break the piggy bank either. ;-)
Comments/Questions?
Dave
PS I'd say you are over driving the HU with current settings. This sends a rough signal to the amps. Some of the better HU's have a defeat selection for internal HU amps that are not used. If yours has that feature and using only RCA line outs to amp, use that feature to give a cleaner signal to your RCA output preamps.
xmax187 on 12/8/2008 11:51:52
I played with it this morning, and I started from -10dB on high, mid and bass. I had to increase the volume on the HU, but it sounds cleaner. I'm no sound expert, but I thought it sounded muttled before. DOH! I will start from scratch, using the techniques you mentioned in an article about tuning in bass. I'll have to pick a deserted parking lot (the last 400 spaces at Walmart will do ;), and I will set everything to zero, raise the volume, step about 10 feet from the truck, back it down, set the levels, etc.
I was obviously pushing too much bass through my mids and highs before, so I should have it better tuned in tonight. I'll let you know. If I still feel it's off, I'll take it to the pros for fine tuning.
Thank you!!
Victor on 12/8/2008 13:18:38
Read this gain setting article... may be your gains are not set as they are supposed to be...
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t57
hope it helps...
Victor..
swez on 12/8/2008 14:58:14
Hum, never saw that one posted, but dead on for those who want to be precise in optimizing the power from any given amp or system.
Another option is to use pink noise burned to a test CD. This is a full spectrum audio signal, recorded at "0" dB reference. This is how the Pro Audio guys dial in a big system and use a reference mike and RTA, (Real Time Analyzer) to find the peaks and dips in the audio environment.
Once those are as flat as we can get them, then it's time to test the system with music and adjust by ear. The music selections vary, but a guy/gal who really knows the material, can dial everything in short order.
Tech Tip: When adjusting by ear, use moderate listening levels, (80-85dB) is plenty. Once the dB levels rise above 95 dB, the brain loses perspective and the ears go into protect mode. That's why I suggest getting out of the vehicle, open the doors and step back when one dials up the power.
If we hear clean mids, accurate highs and crisp lows, you have it right. If the highs sound shrill, the mids are muddy and the lows squashed and sloppy, back to drawing board. (Ain't there yet) The amps are overdriven and sound quality deteriorates due to "clipping". (High distortion levels as the amp cannot keep up)
Got all that? Good luck and just be patient.
Dave
xmax187 on 12/8/2008 19:12:09
Thank you Victor, I had actually read that article before and tried to use the math going by the voltage ratings on the amp, but I realize these are not accurate, just ballpark. I also doubt they are labeled correctly, because the power goes up as I dial to .3v, and the power goes down when I dial closer to 6v?? I think I will just take it to the shop to tune, because I don't have an RTA nor a DMM. There are no clear markings on my sub amp, either, so I will need the right tools to dial it in, anyway.
I can get it sounding well enough for now, but I think I will trust the pros on this one. I definitely don't want to damage anything because of my inexperience :( I tend to break as much as I fix when I get hands on ;)
swez on 12/8/2008 19:52:30
LOL... Many do that "damage thing" in the beginning of this game. That's part of the learning curve and expensive to blow speakers/amps or crossovers as well.
In most cases, it takes a few installs to learn the limits of the gear installed. A skilled tech can spot problems in a few minutes and in 15 minutes of their skilled hands and trained ears, you have a great sounding system after he's done tweaking. (Within the limits of gear installed)
Okay, it may not be as loud when the tech is done, but you won't trash speakers and such with his experience. A well-trained ear is key. Yes, it's nice to have advanced tools on hand to use as basic set points. But ultimately, our ears are the final judge.
I cannot tell you how many service calls Dale/I have run to swap out expensive fried drivers. ($300.00 or more a pop for subs alone + labor)
We finally added limiters and other protection gear to keep the DJ from trashing expensive gear. We'd set up a rack system, install limiters and locked the rack so Dumb DJ's could not damage expensive woofers, horn diaphrams and MB speakers. OK, so we lost a few extra service calls in the process, but the GM was happy with his investments and the DJ's jobs were saved in the process too. That's a win-win scenario for all!
Swez
PS Amp gains are not always as accurate as we'd like. It's a good starting point, but as frequencies change, so does the resistance value of the speaker(s). That's why we prefer an RTA and pink noise generator, to simulate a wide range of speaker impedence changes the amp sees.
It matters a lot when one has10's of thousands of dollars tied up in a given rig. If you bid a job low to get it and trash a few expensive drivers in the process... there goes the profit margins and the sound contractor eats these losses. Yep, when you bring in a $40,000.00 install, you'd better know how to protect the clients'/contractors investments.
Victor on 12/8/2008 20:20:10
Make your computer into a fully functional RTA.. ( performance will depend on the sound card and processor of your laptop/PC )
http://www.box.net/shared/z97eqtrpeh
all you will need is a calibrated mic...
enjoy...
Victor...
xmax187 on 12/9/2008 21:12:27
My local sound shop hooked me up :) He wasn't even going to charge me, but I slipped him $20, anyway. He dialed it in really nicely, and it sounds 100x better than whatever settings I came up with. He was able to really get it to a level that was likely getting the very molecules of by blood cells to separate! My hair is still tingling! Haha!
The only snag was, we couldn't get the perfect high pass setting, because my gear all had preset levels. It doesn't matter for me, though, because I am not going to be listening to the system loud enough for it to be necessary. It really sounds great, as is, and I can still crank it up louder than I am comfortable with without the midbass getting distorted.
He was surprised at how good it all sounded, and he was impressed with my install. THANK YOU CK, ESPECIALLY SWEZ, VICTOR, SQL THUMP AND TTOCS!! Someday you might be driving through the LA valleys, pull up next to a Blazer, and with an approving nod you will think to yourself, "hey, that is some quality work right there", and I'll give you an appreciative nod right back.
THANK YOU!!
swez on 12/9/2008 22:27:42
Kudos to the team and a nice job on your part xmax! CLAP
We love hearing news like this from guys who take on the challenge of installing their own gear. You probably saved $300.00 in the process and learned a lot too.
If you can swing it, consider a donation to CK's operating expenses. Money's been tight here of late and our expenses don't stop, even when traffic is low.
Again, thanks for the update and a fine result you can be proud of. It's always cool to bring in a newbie, take them through the steps and see such fine results in short order.
Nice work!
Dave CLAP
I have a stock alternator and battery in my 2002 V6 Chevy Blazer. I have a successfully installed Sony Xplod 52x4 HU using stock wiring. Call me a sucker, but I kept all components Sony Xplod brand; I bought a 3/4 600W A/B amp for my 3-way 50 RMS 6 1/2's (front, 270W max) and 60 RMS 2-way sub & tweeder 6 1/2 crossover combo (rear 300W max), as well as a 1200W 1 channel D class amp for my 300 RMS 12' sub in factory tuned box (1000W max).
I am not interested in shaking walls and shutting down ATMs, I just want clean, strong beats that sound crisp in my truck. I don't plan on ever cranking my system, and my speakers are all mounted in the factory door mounts.
That being said, I was planning on running both amps off the stock alternator, using a distribution block. If I never push this system past RMS (or very little), would I need the battery, alt and cap upgrades, or are my power demands pretty low?
Can I connect both amps to the REM remote line on my HU, or can only one be connected, with the other connected to a manual switch? (OK, just found chain that said daisy chaining these is OK)
Also, should I use the high output speaker leads from my HU to run to my 600W amp, or do I use the front and rear RCA outs, splitting the rear outs to also run to my 1200W amp? Can I use the high output wires for the 4 channel setup and the RCA out for the 1 channel sub? The HU came with the truck, so I don't have the manual, but it appears to have both front and rear RCA, as well as a separate set of mono RCA for a sub? The HU does have a separate gain for a sub.
Would it sound better to run the 6 1/2 subs on low of the 600W amp crossover and use my 3-way 6 1/2 on the low of the external crossovers with the tweeters on the highs? Or is that retarded?
What will get me the best quality sound out of what I have? Or am I fighting an uphill battle with the components I've chosen?
Thank you!
Replies (49)
ttocs on 11/11/2008 11:56:21
welcome to the forum. For a newb you gave a great intro and told us everything we need to know.
Remore wire - You can connect both amps to the single output. after that if there are any other accesoreis to run off that wire I would recomend a relay, we can cross that bridge when we get there.
Rca's vs speaker leads - hands down you will want to use the rca's. It is a cleaner signal for the amps to grab.
Your amp question is not retarded but will make things a little more difficult then you need to. What you are referring to is called bi-amping but the speakers are designed to use the x-over, you will be fine using it.
Sony is not horrible it is just certianly not the industry favorite. I have heard good things about the subs.
SQLThump on 11/11/2008 12:08:04
You seem to be on the right path, but I do feeel sorry for you on equipment choice. It kind of is an uphill battle vs your Sony gear, but a susessful system is 75 percent install and 25 percent equipment choice.
This gear should work decently well if installed properly. Your stock alternator should suffice, but I recomend getting a gel cell battery if you do any audio mods at all, and for all the other benefits that come with. Don't even think about getting a cap, they are a waste of money, unless they are digital, then they are a pretty looking waste of money, If you want to reinforce your charging system, get a upgraded alternator as big as you need.
Use a 4-8 gauge wiring kit, and the best cables you can afford. I like Streetwires power cable and Monster RCA's personally, I sell Streetwires and wouldn't touch their RCAs.......
FYI RMS values are the amount of wattage your amp can continuiosly push. Peak power is the largest amount of power that an amp can push for like a fraction of a second on a test bench, severly overloaded, a few times, before the amp suffers a painful death.
Good amps are CEA complaint and supply both RMS and peak ratings. Great amps are also CEA complaint and do not rate amps on peak power at all, because it really doesnt matter. Fakin the funk amps are not CEA complaint, and usually tout their peak rating like hard fought for badges of honor. Sony falls in the third group. Not meanng to me mean, but it is true. Their speakers and subs follow good suit, but their highest end decks are pretty decent.
Anyway, connect both amps remote leads to the deck, you can run a single wire back and split it out to the amps. Remote wire is practially igsignificant, it does nothing more than tell the amp to turn on and off, so dont worry about getting nice remote wire.
Make SURE you get the best power, ground and RCA cables you can afford. If those still aren't good cables, wait till you can get some. You don't have the leeway in the quality of you gear to not do this. (not like any of us do......)
Connect your front and rear cables to the front and rear on the 4 channel amp, then the cables to your mono amp to the sub channels. If you only have 2 sets, it will probably be rear and sub outs, use Y splitters off the rear channels and send them to the 4 channel, and of course, subs to mono amp.
Dont mess with the crossovers! Put the tweeters and woofers where they belong on the external crossover, the 3 ways on the rear channels, put them all on a highpass filter, set it low as you can without muddy sounding midbass pouring out, and set your subs on low pass with the frequency around80-100hz.
Follow these instructions you may be able to get some decent sound out of less than desireable speakers. Best of luck to you, and welcome to Clubknowledge!
swez on 11/11/2008 14:59:56
Great job outling the project and very good questions asked as well.
As for the technical advice given already, you've got one of our best Pro Installers, (ttocs) to fill in the gaps. SQL filled in even more details and spot on comments as well. It's not just the gear that makes it all come together. It's the skill of the installer and the tools in the HU that make the most impact.
FYI: Many of us shun the newer Sony products as they are not up to par with other makers in the same price range. It's not to say Sony is junk in the car audio realm, but more hype than substance and a lousy tech support system to users.
The "old school" Sony HU's were very prized in their day. But, the past 5 years have brought huge leaps in signal processing technology and some very neat features to mobile audio gear. (New EQ features, audio delay lines and above average HP/LP filters are common in the $350.00 and up range)
Anyway, welcome to CK and as you need help, just ask and others will be ready with helps to keep things on task.
Swez
xmax187 on 11/12/2008 03:55:58
Thanks to ttocs, SQL Thump and swez! I've read a lot of your tips throughout the forums, and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me.
The HU has 3 RCA outs; front, back and (I assume) mono, so I think I will have no problem using only RCAs for everything.
I will do the instal this weekend and let you know how it goes. I am sure I will need help fine-tuning, but you all helped me find my way. I figured the Xplod speakers were more advertising than quality, but I only took into account the RMS ratings, anyway. I got everything pretty cheap for new, and for as low as I will be keeping the volume (compared to most), I am hoping these components will suffice. You'd probably never know I had so much gear if I was parked next to you, and I am sure a lot of you would be thinking "what's the point?!?" LOL
Thank you all, again!
Victor on 11/12/2008 06:05:36
Welcome to CK
You should also check the article section for a lot more information, on how to set your system correctly...
Victor...
swez on 11/12/2008 10:53:53
Exactly! The install is only one step in the process. The tweaking that comes later will get you home for sure.
Sony speakers have decent Mid-Bass for most drop in installs. They are not "top drawer" like some models, but with some careful tuning later, this install could be pretty solid as is.
The Sony HU you mentioned, what is the model number of this one? Would like to see what features it has and how to get the most from it.
Good luck on your initial install,
Swez
xmax187 on 11/12/2008 16:06:36
Thank you swez. My HU is a Sony Xplod CDX-GT400. It came with the truck. I read it has front+rear/sub switchable. Does this mean if I run the sub out, I have to switch between my sub and my rear speakers when I want the extra bass?
My idea was to use the subs of my 6 1/2 components in the rear doors, the 4-way 6 1/2 in the front doors with the tweeters in the dash, so I could still have bass behind me if I had to take out the sub to haul stuff (it is a truck, afterall). And when the 12" is thumping, I couls have my tweeters and 4-ways surrounding me in highs and mids. It seems this was how it was wired when I took the old speakers out. Is this where "bi-amping" would come into play?
I admit I have no idea what I am doing, so I trust your expertise.
To pull off what I described, would I then have to split the rear outs between the component subs and the 12", thus having to manually turn the 12" sub off? Or is this a waste of time? Is it best to run the components in the front, the 4-ways in the back and the sub on the sub out, losing the 4-ways when I run the sub?
Thank you SQL Thump; I hadn't thought much about the wiring components, and now that I picked up the Monster RCAs, I can see the foil wrap is the reason for the better results. I obviously had poor quality wires, and I will take them back for upgrades. I plan to take out all the interior and trim to do a complete re-wire, and I would have an ulcer if I found out the wiring ruined the entire project. I was also just going to twist and shrink the speaker connections, but now I am going to solder everything.
swez on 11/12/2008 22:08:58
Here's some basic info on that HU series:
http://www.xplodsony.com/article/Sony+National+CDX-GT+Series+CD+Receivers
I don't have time/mental focus right now to go into more details on this plan, but will get back to this after the work week ends. It's crunch time at work now and long hours and lots of extra work activities drain the body as the week goes on. (Dang, am I too old for this line of work or what?)
Will try to give this more attention on the weekend, but others can chime in as they see fit.
Swez
Swez
ttocs on 11/14/2008 01:10:22
do not split the componants. They will sound the best with the tweeter closer to the woofer. I would put the componants up front and the coax in the rear if you can.
xmax187 on 11/14/2008 06:04:19
Thank you for the help everyone! I will tear everything out tomorrow and follow the advice all of you have given me; component woofers in the front doors, tweeters in the dash, crossovers behind the dash, coaxials in the rear doors, sub in the back, Monster RCAs to the amps, 4 awg (fused at the battery) into a 4/8 fused block, power to the right side of my console and RCAs to the left side. I am going to take great care in the layout of the wiring, so that this truck will be ready for plug-n'-play upgrades, should I or the next owner need it.
I'll hit you up when I have everything in. Thanks again!
SQLThump on 11/14/2008 10:51:13
Sweet dude. But, again take our advise and hook up the the components with them in the front, both the mid and the woofer on the crossover, and the 6x9's in the rear.
Thanks for taking my advise on the wiring, you will thank yourself later. But try to run your RCA's and power wires as far away as possible, taking care that they don't cross over each other.
Keep your ground cables as short as possible. Swez will tell you under 3 feet, but I would go under a foot if possible. I run 8 inch ground cables in my Exploder, and I do this so the ground remains as efficent to completing the circuit as possible and this helps keep the circuit niose free as well.
Make sure that whatever you ground to is solid metal that is a good part of the cars body. Seat belt and seat bolts work really well. Sand or grind off all of the paint that is present to give the best contact point possible. Save a bit of the 4 gauge and wrap it in black tape, and use it for the ground cable for optimum results.
Let us know who it turns out man......
swez on 11/14/2008 11:31:21
Also, if you have to cross power feed lines with audio signal cables, (At the amplifiers) do so at 90 degree angles. This allows the lowest cross-sectional area of DC cables to disurb, (add noise) to low power AC signal cables.
As for your Component speakers, use the crossovers as designed. Like SQLThump mentoned, keep them close as possible and in the same vertical plane.
Most guys filter the full range speakers at 60-80 Hz. The sub(s) take care of the deep lows. When/if you remove the sub(s), expect a drop in the deep lower bass.
Other than that, you are on track with inputs so far.
Swez
xmax187 on 11/14/2008 17:16:01
I am glad I checked in, because I missed the part about the grounds being short and 4 AWG. I will do so, and I think I worked out a way to avoid crossing the power and RCAs. I've mapped out all the wiring, and I think I have a very efficient layout.
The thing that I am so impressed by is the amount of pride you all take in your acquired knowledge, and the fact you share it, with gusto, speaks volumes for your character. I will do you all proud, and possibly be able to pass on what you've taught me, changing the world one distorted, overloaded, tinny system at a time :)
SQLThump on 11/14/2008 18:32:48
Word man. These little steps will help ensure your system will be of optimum performance.
About the pride of knowledge and sharing.....This is Clubknowledge, I learned enough about car audio here and from a homie that I was able to get a job in the field at a top notch store with no retail expeirence.
And stick around if you really want to learn some wicked cool stuff. Trust me, if you enjoy car audio now, wait till you find out how addictive it is. It's like crack, but constructive.......
xmax187 on 11/14/2008 21:34:28
I can see what you mean. This has all the elements I love about physics, because it's all about the challenge of dialing in the numbers; if you do your math right and control the factors, you can both predict and achieve the desired effect. In this case, I will hear, and feel, if I am successful.
I can't wait to tune my system once I get it all in. Tesla believed the Earth itself has a frequency, and if we tune into it perfectly, we could unlock limitless energy.
swez on 11/15/2008 00:55:02
It's refreshing to meet and assist a fellow who is primed for success in this project. As you read, install and tweak the system in a methodical process, the results will be well above average.
Yes, CK is all about sharing knowledge on many topics and we all love to see fresh blood in the mix. (It has been very slow here and other sites of late as people are cutting back on such projects when money is tight)
Many of the Gold's have been here a long time and are either in the business of Mobile Electronics or have done some extensive audio work in Pro and Commercial projects as well. Our talent pool is deep and well stocked with skilled people from many backgrounds. Today, we are still in the game while other sites folded. Why? Because we all have a passion for this field and enjoy serving and teaching others that come for advice.
A few years ago, this site was buzzing with new people. Today, the picture has changed a bit. Some Golds have moved on and are doing other things. But at the core, we still have key players to meet others needs as they come in. Tell your friends about us and let them come and learn and participate as well.
Finally, we do take appropriate pride, (Not arrogance) in offering high quality technical support for those who rely on that experience. As you learn & grow, who knows... you too could become a team member if you wish.
Swez
PS Note the absents of "product bashing and personal attacks" toward our readers and/or internal team players? That's what makes CK so unique. We treat others like we want to be treated. Those who stir up conflict or attempt to spam or give out bad advice, are quickly dealt with or blocked from this site. Yes, we've been through all that and more to be sure. But, after 10 years on the Internet, our standards remain high and untarnished. CLAP
SQLThump on 11/15/2008 14:39:51
No bashing, product trashing, or arrogance was a long fought battle on the part of Old Man Audio and thoughts of Walt's wraith over my going on 3 years here.......Moral of the story, you don't want to hear what I am thinking or saying on the other side of this cable a good 25% of the time.
I walked my way through the weeds as a car audio brokeass, trying to beat out whoever is trying to outbump me. I have seen, and for a good while owned, the ghettoest systems that ever took power through a voice coil. Those years sucked............but I through many months of somehow being skilled and ghetto enough to take literally whatever I could get my hands on and beating out 95% of people how to do some mad wicked installs.
In this process, I developed a lengthy list of "Blacklisted" gear. I kind of hate to say it, but Sony is at the top of that list, not so much due to poor quality, (which it is down there, but not at the bottom) but more to the case of their poor products and excellent marketing.
They sell more crap gear to poor consumers then anybody else, because their products look "hip," their decks have a few cool, but a lot of useless features that seem cool, and their hugely inflated power ratings, (1000 watt 4 channel with a 25amp fuse? yeah right!) and super low pricing that makes it a smokin "to good to be true" deal.
And their marketing is second to none. They have such a huge rep from all the other products sell (and rightfully so, their is a ton of Sony electronics in my house, which I a very loyal to) that people make a bad assumption that their car audio gear ust rock or something. They market very well to the younger crowd through magazines like "Import Tuner" and "Super Street" with products that look so hot they burn off the pages.
But when it comes down to it, they're car audio gear is fakin the funk like crazy, poor, unfortunate souls fall for it, and end up buying new gear later, or worse, not caring about the hobby (which is a cross between a sport and war for me), and then everybody suffers, especially poor Old Man Audio who sits next to these kids in traffic pumping nasty, distorted sounding gangsta rap into his PG freindly world. ANGRY
Moral of the story, like Flava Flav says......"DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!" THINKGRINTHINK
Now, past that huge rant, and into why I love CK....People like you Xmax187, come in slightly educated, very level headed and prepared to learn. I don't care that you're whole system is my least favorite brand, for two reasons. I want you to have a tight system no matter what, I want to teach, you want to learn, and above all, INSTALL IS 75% OF A SUCCESSFUL INSTALL!! Unless your talking like some of the flagship Focal's I sell to some Walmart 6x9's, then its about 50/50....GRIN Those 165KP's are turning e into a snob
FYI, practically nobody here has super top shelf gear here. Not to say most of us don't have some nice gear, we do, but nobody here has a system that is insanly budget unfreindly. We will never judge you on your gear purchases, only your ability and willingness to learn and the productivity of your gear selection. Most of us are more impressed by an efficent, well installed rig than something so outlandish that a quartet of 300 amp alternators can't power it to full potentiall.
End Rant! Finish your install already, I wanna see it!
swez on 11/16/2008 01:54:40
Oh brother... SQL is on a "sugar-buzz" and his rant is hilarious to read. That just shows the passion he has in his steps for Car Audio.
I would agree that Sony has great marketing presents and they hype/dupe buyers with a brand name that most will agree is well above average. The problem as I see it, "Mobile Audio" is not a big money maker for Sony and they try to sell the hype based on other products they excel at, but as for support after the sale, forget it! This company is too large and unresponsive to car audio gear. (Basically, the buyer is on their own)
Anyway, we'll walk ya through the steps as needed and yes, you will like the end results later.
Comments?
Swez
ttocs on 11/16/2008 08:00:05
put the redbull down man............. but he did hit the nail on the head.
I really don't hate sony much. People like them because it is a name they know to be reliable as they are. When someone gets into car audio and there are new names like alpine, clarion, kenwood and soo many others that they do not know why wouldn't they lean towards sony?
Now for the top shelf gear remark, whatchu talkin bout sql? Just kidding. I know I do not represent the average person on here after all the experience I have. I have installed enough junk in my own car, and waaaay too much into customers cars(on their orders) to know my way through the gear.
swez on 11/16/2008 12:40:58
LOL... Sony HU's are not all that! (Good or bad) My biggest gripe is the lack of tech support the buyer gets for his gear and $$ spent. The upper end HU's are pretty good in all. However, their amps and speakers/subs are horribly over-rated.
As an experienced installer, you know the drill better than most. It's not the gear used, but the skill of the installer to obtain the best results possible with what is on hand. (Customer's buy list is not the key factor)
Swez
xmax187 on 11/16/2008 21:14:02
I have a new found respect for all of you; it is a bear to keep everything neat, tidy and looking pro. It doesn't help that I live in an apartment complex, and I don't have the luxury of leaving my truck in pieces. Every day I am affraid some teenage jackass will smash my $300 hatch window to take my $150 amp & sub :(
Also, my wife has been...well, I am sure a lot of you could relate to the attitude some women will have toward a man who spends more time with his ride than with her. So I only spent a few hours on and off, appeasing my wife, helping with the kid, etc, etc.
Here is where it stands; I have the power and REM run through the carpet right down the center console, where I mounted the block under the trick compartment for easy access to blown fuses. The RCAs are fed along the driver's side, and I've wired one door. Holy crap! I feel I have been on this project a combined 15 hours, and I am not even half way finished! It doesn't help that everytime I take a break, I have to throw everything in the truck.
I don't know how you all do it in a day, seriously! In my case, extra hands would help, and so would experience. I am fumbling around trying to get the wiring to fit through the rubber tubing in the doors, but I finally found I can manage with a straightened coat hanger and the end of the wire attached to it with electrical tape. The other doors will be much easier, once I get to them. I haven't decided if I am going to drill through the firewall, or drill through the door frame, where I found a quick access into the cab. There is just too much BS in the way if I go through the firewall.
For what I have done already, I can see this is going to look slick. There won't be a bit of wiring showing, save for the ends poking out behind the back seats, where I will have the amps mounted, anyway. This setup will also alow me to run everything in without having to cross the power & RCAs. I don't mind the time it's taking, because I know in the end, it will be done right, and it will be easy to swap out equipment.
When I bought the Sony gear, I knew I wasn't getting the best, just the cheapest. Well, I know you guys can get better deals, so I am sure I will hit you up if I want to upgrade. I am sure what I have will suffice for my needs, though. Should I start itching for higher quality, I would appreciate your opinions and suggestions :)
Give me until next weekend to have everthing hooked up, but if you have a suggestion for getting the power into the cab, I would greatly appreciate it!
Thank you!
xmax187 on 11/17/2008 19:51:19
I just read swez' article on SS filters. It reminded me of the first "serious" car system I heard when I was a teenager. I don't recall the gear, but I remember the guy telling me he was "pushing under 1 Ohm", and I could FEEL his bump from about a 1/2 mile out.
Would I need an SS filter in my little system, or would it be built into the gear I already have?
Interesting stuff!
swez on 11/17/2008 23:00:18
If you run a sealed sub enclosure, no need for an SSF. If you select a port tuned enclosure, then a SSF is recommended to protect the woofer(s) from damage, below the port tuning frequencies.
Most quality sub amps have SSF's in them already. Some are a fixed value and others are variable. It depends on the amp maker and mostly found in amps that pound out 500 RMS and higher wattages.
Swez
ttocs on 11/18/2008 02:24:36
Ah, I have time to work on my car as I am single and have no children. The dog likes to keep me company while I work and also doubles as my personal 15 lb security guard. She is the only b****h that I let tell me what to do......
Runnin wires through doors, I hate that and had to do it this weekend. We didn't have coat hangers around the bay so we used old antennas to fish wires through but it was the same thing. All of these things get easier and fast the more we do it. The first wire run though the door probably took a good 3 hrs right? What about the 2nd?
xmax187 on 11/18/2008 05:41:38
I was going to get more done last night, but I live in the Santa Clarita Valley, CA, and we have 2 wildfires here which have brought in some smoke that I must be allergic to. I was sick all day yesterday, and to top it off, our doctor told us our daughter is allergic to eggs and dogs, and I have 2 dogs! I'm hoping it's the eggs causing her eczema, because my dog has been with me 14 years, and I can't just abandon him now! Any experiences on this one? Murphy's freakin' law, I'm tellin' ya.
I haven't gotten to wiring the front doors, yet. Fishing the wires through the back doors didn't take too long, but it was nearly a straight shot. I did zip tie them to the door to keep them from the window mechanism, and got a handfull of grease for my trouble ;) The front doors will be the real test, as it is more of a curve, and there isn't open access from the frame. I'll let you know how it goes.
I think the amps I have are not equiped with the SSF :( I can see Sony puts it on all their newest models, but I think I have a 2007. I will look everything over again when I get home. If I don't have the SSF, what is a safe level to run without it? I thought 15Hz was OK?Again, I am not looking to win any competitions here, but I certainly don't want to frag my sub! Here is a link I found for SSF; http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?section=12
Or do you have better recommendations?
I want to get this right the first time 'round
swez on 11/18/2008 11:05:00
Fishing wire into door jamb boots can be a big hassle. The passenger side is not as difficult as the driver's side as there are often less wires in the ribbed conduit. (A thin yet flexible wire will work well if you start from the inner door panel, use a little soapy water and a light gage Poly-cord to aid the process)
To save considerable aggravation, we often use the stock OEM speaker wires into the front door panels and split them with the passive crossover if your OEM speakers have only one wire pair. (A lot easier)
It easier to do the passenger side first, just to get a feel for the steps. If you get that right, the driver's side will be much easier. (THINK "SLICKUM Juice" as you attempt this manuver)
Swez
SQLThump on 11/19/2008 17:11:05
Must be a drag having a wife and kids to slow down your install......
But don't feel bad on your install time, a job like that would take one of my installers nearly a full shift with no distractions to finish. Also, My system took me the better part of two full days off to do everything I have done so far, and I am absolutely nowhere close to done, and thats before I plan on ripping everything out to redo my system with mad insanity.
I use a lubed up piece of bent out wire coathanger to run through door jamb boots. Very rigioriously tape the wire and hanger together, lube it up with something liqiud. (don't ask what I used, but nearly anything will work) and gently push the hanger through.
Take your time, enjoy it, and that will net you the best results. I do have a dissagreement with Swex, stock wiring sucks, and I lose sleep at night thinking about how evil "9 wire conductors" are. For best results, run 12AWG to the crossovers, 18-20AWG to the tweeters, and 14AWG to the midwoofer. Before anybody says it is overkill, I'm not thinking/caring about how much power is transferred, but more the size of the wavelength, how tall a full range signal is, and that splitting to two smaller, different range cables ensures proper signal wavelength height, ease of transfer, and that each driver recieves a proper, relative amount of power.
xmax187 on 11/25/2008 06:13:48
New issue! I'm still not finished, but I have nearly everything hooked up. Nothing is powered, yet, but my battery is toast. I know I ran it down leaving the doors open, but I am having to jump it everytime I want to start the truck. I am going to remove it and set it on a trickle charge overnight. Hopefully that's it, but if not, is it possible I broke another power wire or something, and it is grounding out and draining battery?? Can my car alarm drain the battery, if the lights are off, but the doors are open??
Victor on 11/25/2008 07:22:51
check this out...
http://www.flatwirestore.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=FW
Sweet... aint it ?
swez on 11/25/2008 10:14:19
Let's call your battery toast if it's the original factory one. A good OEM battery lasts about 4-6 years at most. After years of use, the cells collect debris from the lead plates and finally short out one or more cells. This is totally normal and a trickle charger will not help a shorted cell. It's time for a new one.
May I suggest an Optima Gel Cell as your next one? The Optima Yellow Top is superior to lead-acid type batteries. It's a deep-cycle version that is well suited to car audio upgrades and can take over 300 deep discharges and come back for more. (A normal car battery can take 4-5 deep discharges before it will fail) See the difference?
Alarm systems do pull a small amount of current as they poll each protect circuit in the systems they monitor. However, if the vehicle is used regularly, you'll not see a problem. If it sits for weeks w/o running the engine, you may find the battery low and the vehicle may not start. (If your truck has a "load leveler" function, it will also deplete the battery when not driven for a while)
Finally, when working on a vehicle for extended periods of time, it's best to disconnect the battery or use a trickle charger to keep the battery up to snuff. The interior lamps are a drain and will eventually draw the battery down enough to require a jump.
Swez
PS If you think there is a short or considerable power drain in the mix, you can tell as soon as you disconnect the NEG battery post. If you note a weak spark when disconnecting the terminal, that's normal. However, if the spark is notable, there's a big draw happening and needs to be located and fixed. Most guys can find this as they pull fuses. Once the right fuse/fuses are pulled, the drain goes away.
The other way is to monitor current draw at the battery with an ammeter. Once the offending circuits are disconnected, the power drain is minimal/gone and the problem can be isolated. Got all that?
PSS Being a family man and having a hobby like this, can be a real juggling act of time, $$ and a source of real heatburn for your lady and kids. All these things and more are pulling at your pant legs, all at the same time and sooner or later, tempers may flare.
Yes, all men need some "Cave time" to relax and unplug from the daily rat race. However, women need our support and attention as well. May I suggest that you plan a date night out with your lady and make all arrangements for a sitter and her favorite place for dinner and a movie? Do this a few times a month and she'll admire you for it.
If not, you could wind up in divorce court, broke, working your tail off to support the family and living in your car. It happens all the time! Have been through that system and men get screwed big time when small children are involved. She gets the house, the kids and all the perks. Men get the shaft and have to pay for it all and hope there's enough left to survive!!! (BTDT and glad it's over) It took 10 years to recover from this one and I'm still one poor dude. Am not bittter for the experience anymore, just more experienced on how this system works. Don't become another casualty in process Okay?
xmax187 on 11/26/2008 12:24:48
Thank you swez! I will take your words to heart. I promised the little lady I would have this install completed Friday, and so she promised to give me the entire day, uninterruped. I will make up for it with a date night, as you suggested. She's been patient, and she knows I am puting her and the baby before the install.
The trickle charge seemed to work, but we shall see. I saw the yellow tops online for $170-$200, so I will see if I can get a wholesale hookup locally. I was a parts installer ("mechanic" seems an overstatement), and I still get industry pricing at some places.
I think my short might be in a harness that zig-zagged across the rear floorboards. I might have damaged something when I ran the power lines. I have 8 hours on Friday, so I will spend an hour ripping everything out, check that harness, and then I have about 6 hours left to mount the speakers and run the power to the battery. I already have the speaker wires in, so I think I should be able to pull this off.
I should be hitting y'all up with good news on Friday night. I'll print out all the articles and archives I can on tuning the system, but I am sure I will have more questions than answers once I have it all hooked up!
Thank you for all your help!
swez on 11/27/2008 03:38:44
That's good news that you'll have Friday to get er done. CLAP Just be realistic about the progress. The Pro installers know many tricks and how to get things done. As a Rookie, it takes ~5 times more effort to learn. (Pulling panels, routing audio and power wires, refitting Aftermarmet speakers and the list goes on)
If you have a shorted wire in the power line, it should blow the inline fuse at the battery. Another thought, if there is a notable current drain in your system, you'll get a pretty good spark when disconnecting the battery terminal. That's the easy way to determine a given circuit is pulling more power than it should. The trick is finding out what circuit(s) is/are doing so and correct as needed.
As for things on the home front, have worked with several older guys with busy schedules, kids and take on this very time consuming hobby. More often than not, it leads to family strife and resentments. Consider breaking things up into small bites that can be done a few hours a week.
Even if it takes 3-4 weeks to pull things together, harmony in the family is job one for any good dad and hubby. "If wifey ain't happy... ain't nobody in the house getting any peace". BTDT... don't go there at all costs.
Cheers,
Swez
PS If you find yourself stuck or getting frustrated at some stage, just put down the tools, walk away, smoke a cigarette, practice yoga, meditate or pray and have a good cup of java to clear the mind. Once you get a fresh picture of things, then go back and work it out.
Yep, this a time tested plan that really works. The mind goes "primative" when flustered or MAD. Once we regain focus and calm down, the brain can create again. hehe (Yes, I have years of practice in this area and "frustration management" is a skill that takes a lot of practice to master) Am still working hard at it to this day, (Age 53)but it's well worth the results! CLAP SMILE LOL
swez on 11/27/2008 08:06:29
Oh, a good way to test for shorts to ground on main power feed lines, would be to pull the fuse and use an ohmeter to test the power wire to a grounded surface. (Engine block or grounding block at the fender well, near the battery are best)
Tech Tip: If the meter reads a few ohms or less, it's likely you have a short in the line. (A pinch point or damaged insulating jacket) If the line is good, the meter will not read anything. (Infinite resistance is the desired reading)
The places most likely to find damaged lines are through the firewall and metal rubs there or trim screws that have broken the inulation of the line. If the problem is severe enough, you'll see charred/melted wire insulation as the main signs of a problem. If you find one, cut off the damaged section and splice as needed. (More details if you find that to be an issue)
Swez
xmax187 on 11/28/2008 08:43:20
Happy Thanksgiving swez, and to all who read! I hope it was a good one!
I appreciate you sharing your wisdom swez, both on the install and on the personal issues. Wow, 53; was your first install a phonograph on a Model T ? JKJKJK!! Couldn't resist, assuming you deal with teens and 20-somethings all day. I feel I am late in the game at 35. If this is it for my midlife crisis (finally getting a bigger system in my truck), then I think my marriage will be ok. Well, as long as I can fight the urge to buy another motorcycle. This system was my trade-off; I figured if I had to trade in my 2 wheels for 4, I should at least enjoy the drive.
swez on 11/28/2008 18:46:43
The team here at CK, gave me the name "Old Man Audio" . There's a reason for it. LOL
Yes, am used to teens, 20 something and every so often, a few 30-ish guys come along as a welcomed reader. Truth is, am still young at heart and plan to stay that way. The best way I see to do that, give useful helps to the young and attempt to teach them to think before they leap. Yep, it's very rewarding too.
Motto to live by: "To have good friends, become one first".
Have been into Car Audio about 10 years now. No, am not a Pro installer like some here, but have done a few nice projects for others and love to see the look on their faces when we wrap things up, tweak things in and dial up the power. That look, high fives and a firm handshake in the end, are all worth the efforts.
Have a twin brother who's been in Pro Audio and now Commercial installs for over 25 years. We've done many big projects as a team and Dale is very inspiring. His work ethic and coaching has served us both well over the years. Having that under the ol belt, shifting to car audio was a natural fit for a good hobby. The components are similar in function, but restricted to 12 volts DC.
Yeah, I really look up to Dale as a best friend and a first rate teacher. He's demanding & precise on the job, but that just brings out the best in my own efforts to fill in the gaps and gain valuable OJT in the process. Yes, he's a tough-minded business man in his own realm. But so am I when it comes down to brass tacks and doing a job to be proud of later. (Not prideful, more like... "Damn, this panned out nicely and a very satisfied client, whan all is done"!)
Oddly, I sense a real and lasting kinship meeting you here. I just know you are going to be an excellent student and successful when all the nuts and bolts come together in time. Don't ask me how this will gel into a great group project... I just know quality people when they come to learn and grow. Don't need the lime-light either. Just watching others grow and get the best result possible, is plenty good enough. (Love watching/helping others learn and grow as they go) Every Gold here has the same general motive... "Plant the seeds of possibility, water with knowledge and let the student grow until the process is finished"!
That's what true teacher's look for... "lead, guide and allow the student to become competent and maybe serve others as they learn and venture out to help others". (All our Golds come in that way) Once they have mastered the basics and get the details well, giving back to others puts them on track if that is their desire. Some do while other hang a while and move on.
Finally, after person has been around a while, some clam up and become cynical or self-absorbed. A few reach out, share thier expieriences and hope it takes root in others. In my younger days, I was a very selfish bone-head and paid a big price for that.
After paying some heavy dues, I choose to offer life-lessons to avoid and the perks that come if we can stay the course. I cannot say I have all the right answers, but have learned a few things from mistakes that others can easily avoid. We all have a set of paths to choose in life. Am tired of learning the hard way and it just come out naturally.
Take what seems fit and go from there! "No man is an Island onto them selves. We all need some perspective and guidance on our oun jouyney/process".
Dave
xmax187 on 12/2/2008 15:56:53
You're definitely a cool head now, and whatever you've been through has taken you, and those you touch, to a better place. Thank you Dave, aka swez, aka Old Man Audio, aka sensei, aka friend.
I have completed the install, though be it messy;
1) My antenna broke out of the HU, but I found the center pin, and I will fix/replace that in the near future.
2) The + mount stripped on my battery. Thankfully it has enough grip to hold tight for now, and worst case scenario, I also have top posts I can utilize.
3) My 4awg grommet wouldn't stay put in the hole I drilled in the frame, so I siliconed the crap out of it.
These being the only snags, everything looks clean, meaning all signs of an install are hidden away. Everything seems to be working well. I am sure it needs serious tweeking, but the bass is pretty strong for only one 12" 300W sub.
I feel I did it right, thanks to you and everyone here. Is there a place to post photos on this site? I don't think the Sony gear sounds all that bad, but I am sure next to any one of your systems it would be lacking. I now have to dial everything in. I will do my best going by the numbers, because I think I am tone deaf. Everything sounds clean, except for a "click" when I make selections on my HU. I never noticed it before, so it might have something to do with the pre-outs or the amps?
I have never been one to blast my stereo, but now I think I have an excuse to ;) I am actually shocked at how many db are coming out of this system :) Like I've said, I'm not looking to win competitions, but it has defnitely surpassed my expectations. Thank you!!
swez on 12/2/2008 19:22:39
The snags are all part of the learning curve when we don't have a set of practiced hands on the project. That's just how one learns at times.
The side mounted GM battery teriminals are a lousy design and there is better hardware out there to use top mounted posts for a cleaner, more reliable job. If you need to go that route, there options for that fix.
Good fix on the firewall grommet. Some kits fit better than others, but as a last resort, what you did should be fine.
I think there are antenna repair parts out there if needed. As long as you can find the right jack and long enough coax on hand, the rest is just a matter or adding a new male jack. (Worst case, remove the OEM antenna and install a cool one as needed.
The "pops" you hear when changing modes, could as simple as regrounding the HU or adjusting amp gains a tad as well. Aftermarket HU's work best when we hardwire the ground to the floorpan or firewall and do not use the factory harness ground at all. (Can explain in detail as needed...just ask)
Finally, it's a true blessing to work with guys like you. Appreciate the kudos and all, but am more of a "teacher/guide" personality who likes watching/guiding others to success in the background. When others get it right, everybody wins.
Thank you for the kind words! You have made a tough work week, into a pre-summer night on a favorite trip to the river, fishing for trout and Smallies. "Fish on" dude and it's a tackle tester too. (Land and released to get bigger later) Woo-hoo, she's a beauty too!
Dave ><)))> and ><> too!
xmax187 on 12/4/2008 12:14:44
Thank you Dave! I will re-ground the HU this weekend, and I found a new antenna adapter. If the +post gets loose, I will get a top mount adapter, but I think it is holding fine for now. I also thought, in a pinch, I could take a few copper strands from a spare piece of wire, lay them across the threads, and this might give it a little more grip. Can you tell I have had to improvise a lot on the fly when it comes to my hoopties?
I think my charging system is sufficient for my system, because I'm starting fine, and I am not seeing any dimming of the headlights. Obviously, if my battery dies again, I will invest in the yellowtop, but I'd prefer to save that $180 if I don't need it.
I can't believe how good this system sounds! I mean it hits harder than I would have ever imagined. I am sure everyone here would be proud of the job I did, thanks to everyone's help, of course! I started pushing the volume more and more over the last few days, and at half volume the rearview shakes like crazy! I had it at 30% with the windows up and I turned some heads :)
It sounds clean, too, and that's without any equipment to dial it in. I played it by ear, and I think I did a good job. I might even take it by The Sound Man to see what they think of my work :) They've already seen me enough times buying little things I kept finding I was missing for the install.
Overall, I think the wife is even happier than I am, because I won't be spending any more nights in the parking lot :)
swez on 12/5/2008 01:00:56
Well done program and it did not take all that long either. CLAP
Yep, improvising on the task on the fly, is always a good thing. Was thinking of suggesting some fine gage soldering wire on the threads to fill the gaps. Both the battery and solder are high in lead content, so "galvanic effects" would be minimal.
When mixing certain metals and electrical current, certain metals form corrosion, (Oxides... a form of rust) that break down conductivity. Keep an eye on that every so often and look for any odd chemical reactions at the terminal posts.
OEM batteries only last 4-5 years at best. If you live in an area where winters are mild, that extends battery life. In regions where winters are long and very cold, most OEM batteries die in mid-winter. It's not fun to swap a battery in sub-zero weather.
My work van is a 2003 Chevy Express w/ 125,000 miles on the original battery. It's on its last legs. Fleet vehicles that need to start 25 or more times in a shift, take a real beating. I told the owner this one is about to give up. Just give me some cash and I'll buy and install a new one before the "really cold weather" sets in. (Hehe... will they listen?)
I hope so as I don't wish to be stranded 100 miles out on a given route with a dead battery. "Hello... AAA, need road service in the dead of winter"! (I want to avoid that scenario if at all possible) GRIN
By all means, run buy your local shop and they may give you some pointers on dialing in your amp settings. If you've been a steady customer, many shops will do this for you free.
When re-grounding the HU, make it to bare metal. (Dash, floor pan or firewall) That usually clears up noisy systems and avoids "ground loops" that can ruin sound quality. (Pops, Alt whine noise and other related issues) If that does not cure it, dial back on amp gains as they may be set too high and amplify noise with the audio content) There are some tips in our FAQ & DIY section to help ya along.
"No more nights in the parking lot"... LOL It sounds like you have a very patient and understanding wife. As mentioned before, take yourselves out on a "date night" a few times a month. Just arrange a sitter for the baby and a nice meal, some time to talk about how things are going at home and such. She'll love being treated like a "special date" and you'll both stay on the same page as time goes on. ;-)
Dave
PS Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all! May you be blessed with good health, adequate financials and a deeper level of bonding as a family. CLAP Am glad we met on CK!
xmax187 on 12/8/2008 04:59:50
Happy Christmas and Merry New Year! I hope it is joyous for all! I hope your boss has sprung for a new battery Dave. Getting stuck in the cold is not cool. That's why I moved to SoCal ;)
I think I have lucked out on this entire install, because whatever I've broken, I have either fixed or replaced with little problems. That, and the wife is thrilled I don't have to ditch her hours at a time. Now I steal my tuning moments between the home and office ;)
I grounded the HU, but I will have to try it again. It still pops, though it is less. There is so much BS under the dash, it makes it difficult to find a close and solid ground. I'm going to run a longer wire and drill a new mount on the frame.
I have tuned in the sub and amp at around 80Hz with about 50% bass boost and 75% power level. Its a 1-channel D class 1200W amp (330RMS) with a 1000W 12"sub (300RMS)
I have both the high and low filters off on the 4 channel class AB 600W (4x55W). I have the levels all the way down to .3 on this amp, and the speakers seem like they are already powered to peak performance (50W 4-way 6.5s and 60W component 6.5s). Does that sound right, to have enough power coming out at .3??
I have the HU tuned to +10dB Low, +6dB High, +2dB Mid, and the sub level cranked all the way up.
The system thumps really hard if you're in the driver's seat, but I think I may be over doing it a bit. Should I have the bass boost all the way down? Does my power level sound about right? I'll read some more articles, but I'd like to know if I am close?
swez on 12/8/2008 06:14:18
It seems your HU ground is not there yet and the gain structure between HU and amps are a bit off. When combined, you'll get noise amplified with the audio signals this way.
With your HU set to flat response, ("0 dB boost or cut at all EQ settings) and the HU volume at ~80%, reset your amp gains so they are clean and balanced as well as possible.
I generally start with the full range amp setting and no bass. After the Mid/Highs sound good, then bring up the bass amp gain to fill in the lows. Some CD cuts are really "hot" and juiced with extra bass. (Rap and Hip-Hop especially) Other types of music are more balanced like Jazz, Pop/Rock and Country. (Some of the cleanest mixes are Country music) No joke! Hank Jr., Alabama and most female vocalists top the list.
As for rock, Pink Floyd's "Dark side of the Moon" are very well mixed and some of the older Chicago hits too. If you like Steely Dan or Super Tramp, they too are mixed very well too.
Your HU settings are a bit high too. Bass at +6dB, Mids flat to -3 dB and Treble at +3dB should cover things well. The bass boost on your sub amp should be minimal too. (+6dB tops) The rest is all about gain setting your amps and crossovers. (80 Hz is about right for most Mobile Audio settings)
Since we cannot hear your system, you have to be the judge or stop by that local shop and let their top tech do this with you. Flip him some coin for his time & expertise. ($20 bucks, a case of his favorite brew or buy him a good lunch) That will motivate most guys and won't break the piggy bank either. ;-)
Comments/Questions?
Dave
PS I'd say you are over driving the HU with current settings. This sends a rough signal to the amps. Some of the better HU's have a defeat selection for internal HU amps that are not used. If yours has that feature and using only RCA line outs to amp, use that feature to give a cleaner signal to your RCA output preamps.
xmax187 on 12/8/2008 11:51:52
I played with it this morning, and I started from -10dB on high, mid and bass. I had to increase the volume on the HU, but it sounds cleaner. I'm no sound expert, but I thought it sounded muttled before. DOH! I will start from scratch, using the techniques you mentioned in an article about tuning in bass. I'll have to pick a deserted parking lot (the last 400 spaces at Walmart will do ;), and I will set everything to zero, raise the volume, step about 10 feet from the truck, back it down, set the levels, etc.
I was obviously pushing too much bass through my mids and highs before, so I should have it better tuned in tonight. I'll let you know. If I still feel it's off, I'll take it to the pros for fine tuning.
Thank you!!
Victor on 12/8/2008 13:18:38
Read this gain setting article... may be your gains are not set as they are supposed to be...
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t57
hope it helps...
Victor..
swez on 12/8/2008 14:58:14
Hum, never saw that one posted, but dead on for those who want to be precise in optimizing the power from any given amp or system.
Another option is to use pink noise burned to a test CD. This is a full spectrum audio signal, recorded at "0" dB reference. This is how the Pro Audio guys dial in a big system and use a reference mike and RTA, (Real Time Analyzer) to find the peaks and dips in the audio environment.
Once those are as flat as we can get them, then it's time to test the system with music and adjust by ear. The music selections vary, but a guy/gal who really knows the material, can dial everything in short order.
Tech Tip: When adjusting by ear, use moderate listening levels, (80-85dB) is plenty. Once the dB levels rise above 95 dB, the brain loses perspective and the ears go into protect mode. That's why I suggest getting out of the vehicle, open the doors and step back when one dials up the power.
If we hear clean mids, accurate highs and crisp lows, you have it right. If the highs sound shrill, the mids are muddy and the lows squashed and sloppy, back to drawing board. (Ain't there yet) The amps are overdriven and sound quality deteriorates due to "clipping". (High distortion levels as the amp cannot keep up)
Got all that? Good luck and just be patient.
Dave
xmax187 on 12/8/2008 19:12:09
Thank you Victor, I had actually read that article before and tried to use the math going by the voltage ratings on the amp, but I realize these are not accurate, just ballpark. I also doubt they are labeled correctly, because the power goes up as I dial to .3v, and the power goes down when I dial closer to 6v?? I think I will just take it to the shop to tune, because I don't have an RTA nor a DMM. There are no clear markings on my sub amp, either, so I will need the right tools to dial it in, anyway.
I can get it sounding well enough for now, but I think I will trust the pros on this one. I definitely don't want to damage anything because of my inexperience :( I tend to break as much as I fix when I get hands on ;)
swez on 12/8/2008 19:52:30
LOL... Many do that "damage thing" in the beginning of this game. That's part of the learning curve and expensive to blow speakers/amps or crossovers as well.
In most cases, it takes a few installs to learn the limits of the gear installed. A skilled tech can spot problems in a few minutes and in 15 minutes of their skilled hands and trained ears, you have a great sounding system after he's done tweaking. (Within the limits of gear installed)
Okay, it may not be as loud when the tech is done, but you won't trash speakers and such with his experience. A well-trained ear is key. Yes, it's nice to have advanced tools on hand to use as basic set points. But ultimately, our ears are the final judge.
I cannot tell you how many service calls Dale/I have run to swap out expensive fried drivers. ($300.00 or more a pop for subs alone + labor)
We finally added limiters and other protection gear to keep the DJ from trashing expensive gear. We'd set up a rack system, install limiters and locked the rack so Dumb DJ's could not damage expensive woofers, horn diaphrams and MB speakers. OK, so we lost a few extra service calls in the process, but the GM was happy with his investments and the DJ's jobs were saved in the process too. That's a win-win scenario for all!
Swez
PS Amp gains are not always as accurate as we'd like. It's a good starting point, but as frequencies change, so does the resistance value of the speaker(s). That's why we prefer an RTA and pink noise generator, to simulate a wide range of speaker impedence changes the amp sees.
It matters a lot when one has10's of thousands of dollars tied up in a given rig. If you bid a job low to get it and trash a few expensive drivers in the process... there goes the profit margins and the sound contractor eats these losses. Yep, when you bring in a $40,000.00 install, you'd better know how to protect the clients'/contractors investments.
Victor on 12/8/2008 20:20:10
Make your computer into a fully functional RTA.. ( performance will depend on the sound card and processor of your laptop/PC )
http://www.box.net/shared/z97eqtrpeh
all you will need is a calibrated mic...
enjoy...
Victor...
xmax187 on 12/9/2008 21:12:27
My local sound shop hooked me up :) He wasn't even going to charge me, but I slipped him $20, anyway. He dialed it in really nicely, and it sounds 100x better than whatever settings I came up with. He was able to really get it to a level that was likely getting the very molecules of by blood cells to separate! My hair is still tingling! Haha!
The only snag was, we couldn't get the perfect high pass setting, because my gear all had preset levels. It doesn't matter for me, though, because I am not going to be listening to the system loud enough for it to be necessary. It really sounds great, as is, and I can still crank it up louder than I am comfortable with without the midbass getting distorted.
He was surprised at how good it all sounded, and he was impressed with my install. THANK YOU CK, ESPECIALLY SWEZ, VICTOR, SQL THUMP AND TTOCS!! Someday you might be driving through the LA valleys, pull up next to a Blazer, and with an approving nod you will think to yourself, "hey, that is some quality work right there", and I'll give you an appreciative nod right back.
THANK YOU!!
swez on 12/9/2008 22:27:42
Kudos to the team and a nice job on your part xmax! CLAP
We love hearing news like this from guys who take on the challenge of installing their own gear. You probably saved $300.00 in the process and learned a lot too.
If you can swing it, consider a donation to CK's operating expenses. Money's been tight here of late and our expenses don't stop, even when traffic is low.
Again, thanks for the update and a fine result you can be proud of. It's always cool to bring in a newbie, take them through the steps and see such fine results in short order.
Nice work!
Dave CLAP
Copyright ClubKnowledge 2009 * All Rights Reserved
