Firstly I want to thank you for the help with the RCA box. It works great. Now I have a new question. I am looking to put a single 12" sub in my second ride. I ordered a Cerwin Vega Stroker from a site online, apparently they no longer have it. So doing some research, I found 5 other 12" subs on this site which are similar in price and amps and I am looking for some professional advice on which one I should order. The subs are: Audiobahn AWIS12P, Kenwood Excelon KFC-XW12R, MA Audio HK12X2 (this one I have never heard of), Pioneer Premier TS-W3001D2 and Hifonics OLM1612. Any help would be great!! Thanks.
Replies (12)
Victor on 09/30/2008 22:28:18
none of the ones you mentioned would come close to the stroker or the stroker pro....
by the way... what amp do you plan to run either of these subs on???
any amp that delivers an odd 1500wrms - 2000wrms will draw more than 120amps for sure...Dry cell battery - HO alternator - big 3 .... all these upgrades would be required if u ain't got them done already.... these upgrade can cost u another $700 - $800
or else its just a waste of money buying these expensive equipments ...
get a solid 600wmrs amp and sub combo in a sturdy ported enclosure tuned at 35Hz and u'll be a happy boomer...
Victor...
swez on 09/30/2008 22:32:23
What amp are you planning to use for driving the sub of choice? Knowing that will help us point to a sub that matches the amp.
Looked through your list and noted most sub choices are 1000 Wrms and 2+2 DVC's. The Kenwood is a 3+3 DVC and from what I've seen on this forum, Bahn may not be a great choice. (They don't stack up for the price)
Comments?
Swez
PS Glad you had success with the RCA splitter box. That's the cheapest way to get the desired results.
evilscotsman77 on 10/1/2008 19:54:04
Well, I have been looking at the Volfenhag line for quite some time now and just for sh*ts and kicks, I bought the ZX 7180 under the misconception that this was a 2000W amp.....wrong was I. This thing is ok for maybe pushing a small 10 but thats about it as far as I can tell.
Ive already done my big three so power draw isnt an issue. Im running a 4 farad cap and a kicker crossover. Right now Im running 2-15inch Kicker Comps and 2-10 inch Audiobahns powered by 4 old school Rockford B1000's. Its all good but I this is my daily driver and Im out of space to put anything in my truck. SO Ive made the harsh decision to step it down a notch, Im getting rid of the 15's and I would like to step down to a single heavy 12. As of now, I havent got an amp worth hooking up to anything decent so once I find a decent 12 for a reasonable price, I will probably come right back on here and ask for opinions on Amps. I suppose we could knock them both out right now.
By the way, you were not lying about the Audiobahn comment. Theyre ok for teenagers in honda civics I guess but thats about it.
Victor on 10/1/2008 21:46:12
It may be Harsh for you..
But its a good decision you made.. get all that junk out of your car..
get a solid 600wrms - 800wrms sub-amp combo...
a good combo would cost you somewhere from $500 to $600 .. depends on what kinda deal you can get from online dealers or your local dealers ..
for ex.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_9552_Hifonics+TXi+1508D.html
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_4810_JL+Audio+13W6V2-D4.html
swez on 10/1/2008 21:59:47
Hehe, Bahn has too much eye candy for my taste and they just don't stand up to other brands in that price range.
As you have already surmized, V-Hag products are not the cat's meow either. The specs are written to make them look like players, but this product line is definitely a "C" list bench warmer.
Consider solid product lines like Alpine, JBL, Infinity or Kicker for the sub and amp. A solid 500-600 watts RMS is plenty of power for a daily driver. A Class D Mono amp is more efficient than 2 channel amps and draw less power to produce the desired output.
Think about the Alpine SWR-1242D as your woofer. It's very versitile, handles 500 watts RMS and 2 ohms when wired in parallel. They can be had off the net for about $100.00 but retail for over $200.
As for the amp to power it, use the Alpine MRP-M500. This amp delivers a solid 500 Wrms @ 2 ohm loads. If you want to look at specs for both, look here:
http://www.crutchfield.com/
Swez
PS There is only about a 3dB difference between 500 and 1000 watts in terms of audio output. The rest is consumed power to produce that minimal extra and lots of energy drawn is lost to heat.
evilscotsman77 on 10/2/2008 12:10:51
One more question. Can someone explain the difference and the pros and cons of 4 ohm and 2 ohm?
kirchatndftbl on 10/2/2008 15:32:07
since your going to run a single sub set up around 1000rms??
a dual 2 ohm single sub would be more efficent with the proper amp since it can be wired parallel to the amp for a total ohmic load of 1 ohm or 4 ohms
while a dual 4 ohm single sub would acheive a total ohmic load of eithe 2ohms or 8ohms
the golds on here can probably explain more pros and cons since im still learning more about car audio but thats pretty much the basics
Victor on 10/2/2008 22:39:42
Ohm - is a unit of measure of resistance ( impedance )
Technically it cannot have its pro's and con's as it is just a "measuring unit".
Ohm's Law defines the relationships between (P) power, (E) voltage, (I) current, and (R) resistance.
( I ) Current is what flows on a wire or conductor like water flowing down a river. Current flows from negative to positive on the surface of a conductor. Current is measured in (A) amperes or amps.
( E ) Voltage is the difference in electrical potential between two points in a circuit. It's the push or pressure behind current flow through a circuit, and is measured in (V) volts.
( R ) Resistance determines how much current will flow through a component. Resistors are used to control voltage and current levels. A very high resistance allows a small amount of current to flow. A very low resistance allows a large amount of current to flow. Resistance is measured in ohms.
( P ) Power is the amount of current times the voltage level at a given point measured in wattage or watts.
German physicist Georg Ohm defined the Ohms Law =
The current through a conductor between two points is directly proportional to the potential difference (i.e. voltage drop or voltage) across the two points, and inversely proportional to the resistance between them.
The mathematical equation that describes this relationship is:
I = V/R
Current = Voltage / Resistance
Interpretation: One ohm of resistance will allow only one ampere of current to flow through a circuit when one volt of electrical force is applied to the circuit.
The voice coil of your drivers ( speakers / subs ) have a certain rated impedance ( for ex. 2 ohm, 4 ohm etc. ), meaning that these voice coils will provide a particular load ( resistance/impedance) to the flow of current.
Every amplifier is designed to run at a particular load.
for ex. an amp rated like this.
300wrms x 1 ch @ 4ohms, 600wrms x 1 ch @ 2 ohms.
meaning
when the amplifier is subjected to a 4 ohm load it will produce 300wrms power ( that translates into 300wrms power produced by a current of 8.66 amperes at a load of 4 ohms, and the voltage measured will be 34.64 Volts according to the ohms law )
now when the load on this amplifier is changed to 2 ohms instead of 4 ohms, the resistance is reduced by half and ideally the power produced will double ie. 600wrms x 1ch @ 2 ohms. ( but this is possible only if the amplifier is designed to take lower loads and maintains its stability at the noted load, also in real world there are many other factors that affect the actual power produced)
some amplifiers are designed to take loads as low as 0.5 ohms, these are high current amps...
the reason we have 2ohms or 4 ohms SVC ( single voice coil) or DVC ( dual voice coil ) is to provide us the different wiring options.
parallel and series wiring can help us get various loads to match with our amplifiers for optimum performance.
Series wiring = When 2 voice coils ( either of the same DVC sub, or 2 SVC subs) are wired in series to the amplifier, their resistance adds up like this.
1 - for example we have two "4ohm SVC subs" rated to take 300wrms power
4 ohm + 4 ohm = 8 ohm ( R1 + R2 = R ) meaning the total load that the amplifier will see is 8 ohms.
now if an amplifier is rated at 300wrms @ 4ohm and it is subject to a 8 ohm load it will produce half the power that is 150wrms, now what is the use of buying a heavy amplifier when u cant get the full potential out of it, and whats the use of buying 2 subs when u cant power them aptly ???
Instead in this scenario what can be done is wire those 4 ohm subs in parallel... when wired in parallel the resistance adds up like under...
1/R = ( 1/R1 + 1/R2 )
therefore:
R = R1 x R2 / R1+R2
hence the net load this amplifier will see when those subs are wired in parallel will be
R = 4x4 / 4+4 = 16/8 = 2 ohms
hence the net load when two 4ohm coils are wired in parallel is 2 ohms
this will extract the most power out of the noted amp. i.e. 600wrms x 1ch @ 2 ohms... each voice coil will get 300wrms in this case.
if you have more than two loads.. i.e. either more than 2 SVC subs or more than one DVC subs, then series /parallel wiring formula would be
Series : R = R1 + R2 + R3 + .......................+ Rn
Parallel : 1/R = 1/R1 + 1/R2 + ........... + 1/Rn
If you got more than one DVC sub, then solve indivudual impedance for each sub first and then use that to caculate the final impedance.
say u got 2 DVC 4 ohm subs and you wire the Voice coil of each sub in series first then
( solving individual impedance first , its like a BODMAS rule)
sub 1 = 4+ 4 = 8 ohms
sub 2 = 4+ 4 = 8 ohms
now if you wanna wire these subs in series then the final impedance would be R = 8 + 8 hence the net load would be 16 ohms,
and if you wire these subs in parallel then it would be
1/R = 1/8 + 1/8 = hence the net load would be 4 ohms.
Hence in a similar fashion one can find an optimum net load while configuring more than one SVC, DVC subs and amp combinations and wiring them for optimum performance.....
to see various wiring options see the following link...
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t33
swez on 10/2/2008 23:11:18
Nice points and your facts are all in a row too Victor. However, this barrage of facts and equations to a newbie will give the poor guy a bad headache as he tries to sort it all out. GRIN
In a nutshell, the class of amplifier used will determine the best resisitive load for the sub used.
Most Class D amps are rated stable at 2 ohms and very efficient at that load level. Most key Mfg's target their best performance amps to a 2 ohm load. Victor's earlier recommendations are spot on if you have the budget for the pairing. (Great choice on HiFonics amp and JL sub)
If a lower budget is what you have, look at the Alpine series mentioned earlier.
Finally, We can give you the basis and say... "Buy this as we know it works well as a pairing". However, if you want to go deeper in electronic theory and how circuits work together, we can lead you there too. www.bcae1.com is a great resource.
http://www.bcae1.com/
Comments?
Swez
newB on 10/3/2008 09:23:22
me be a fan of the more "underground" audio companies would like to throw these names out there-
Fi SSD 800wrms $189.00
www.ficaraudio.com
DC lvl 3 12 $175-200
www.dcsoundlab.com
RE SE 145$
www.reaudio.com
OR follow my long ebay link to see the RE SE
http://cgi.ebay.com/RE-AUDIO-SE12-12-CAR-SUB-WOOFER-SUBWOOFER-SE-12-D4-new_W0QQitemZ390000605635QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item390000605635&_trkparms=72%3A1205
evilscotsman77 on 10/6/2008 21:41:22
Gents, I want to thank you for all the vast knowledge. To be perfectly honest, Victor blew my friggin doors off though. I used to think I was a relatively intelligent man. Im second guessing that now. Anyhow, my original issue was that I ordered a Vega Stroker and found out a month later that it was actually out of stock and I needed advice on a replacement. However, the place I ordered from did the good did of adjusting my order to what they felt was a good choice. I ended up with a Vega V-Max 124 instead. I hope this is a good sub as I already ordered the Alpine MRP-M500 as per Swez's guidance.
Again, thank you all for your support. Will the this Vega and the Alpine pair up well?
Victor on 10/6/2008 22:41:10
Great Choice.....
CV suggest a 1cuft ported enclosure tuned at 37Hz, although I have noticed this sub perform better in a 1.5 cuft ported enclosure tuned at 35Hz.
with that amp, the Vmax should do perfectly well in the 1.5 cu.ft encl.
If you wanna go sealed
CV suggests 0.75 cuft sealed enclosure.. but I have noticed this sub perform way better in a 1.25 cuft sealed enclosure...
this sub pounds if fed well..
It matches well with the alpine amp too...
This sure is a solid performing combo..
Boom Boom Boom..
Victor...
Replies (12)
Victor on 09/30/2008 22:28:18
none of the ones you mentioned would come close to the stroker or the stroker pro....
by the way... what amp do you plan to run either of these subs on???
any amp that delivers an odd 1500wrms - 2000wrms will draw more than 120amps for sure...Dry cell battery - HO alternator - big 3 .... all these upgrades would be required if u ain't got them done already.... these upgrade can cost u another $700 - $800
or else its just a waste of money buying these expensive equipments ...
get a solid 600wmrs amp and sub combo in a sturdy ported enclosure tuned at 35Hz and u'll be a happy boomer...
Victor...
swez on 09/30/2008 22:32:23
What amp are you planning to use for driving the sub of choice? Knowing that will help us point to a sub that matches the amp.
Looked through your list and noted most sub choices are 1000 Wrms and 2+2 DVC's. The Kenwood is a 3+3 DVC and from what I've seen on this forum, Bahn may not be a great choice. (They don't stack up for the price)
Comments?
Swez
PS Glad you had success with the RCA splitter box. That's the cheapest way to get the desired results.
evilscotsman77 on 10/1/2008 19:54:04
Well, I have been looking at the Volfenhag line for quite some time now and just for sh*ts and kicks, I bought the ZX 7180 under the misconception that this was a 2000W amp.....wrong was I. This thing is ok for maybe pushing a small 10 but thats about it as far as I can tell.
Ive already done my big three so power draw isnt an issue. Im running a 4 farad cap and a kicker crossover. Right now Im running 2-15inch Kicker Comps and 2-10 inch Audiobahns powered by 4 old school Rockford B1000's. Its all good but I this is my daily driver and Im out of space to put anything in my truck. SO Ive made the harsh decision to step it down a notch, Im getting rid of the 15's and I would like to step down to a single heavy 12. As of now, I havent got an amp worth hooking up to anything decent so once I find a decent 12 for a reasonable price, I will probably come right back on here and ask for opinions on Amps. I suppose we could knock them both out right now.
By the way, you were not lying about the Audiobahn comment. Theyre ok for teenagers in honda civics I guess but thats about it.
Victor on 10/1/2008 21:46:12
It may be Harsh for you..
But its a good decision you made.. get all that junk out of your car..
get a solid 600wrms - 800wrms sub-amp combo...
a good combo would cost you somewhere from $500 to $600 .. depends on what kinda deal you can get from online dealers or your local dealers ..
for ex.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_9552_Hifonics+TXi+1508D.html
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_4810_JL+Audio+13W6V2-D4.html
swez on 10/1/2008 21:59:47
Hehe, Bahn has too much eye candy for my taste and they just don't stand up to other brands in that price range.
As you have already surmized, V-Hag products are not the cat's meow either. The specs are written to make them look like players, but this product line is definitely a "C" list bench warmer.
Consider solid product lines like Alpine, JBL, Infinity or Kicker for the sub and amp. A solid 500-600 watts RMS is plenty of power for a daily driver. A Class D Mono amp is more efficient than 2 channel amps and draw less power to produce the desired output.
Think about the Alpine SWR-1242D as your woofer. It's very versitile, handles 500 watts RMS and 2 ohms when wired in parallel. They can be had off the net for about $100.00 but retail for over $200.
As for the amp to power it, use the Alpine MRP-M500. This amp delivers a solid 500 Wrms @ 2 ohm loads. If you want to look at specs for both, look here:
http://www.crutchfield.com/
Swez
PS There is only about a 3dB difference between 500 and 1000 watts in terms of audio output. The rest is consumed power to produce that minimal extra and lots of energy drawn is lost to heat.
evilscotsman77 on 10/2/2008 12:10:51
One more question. Can someone explain the difference and the pros and cons of 4 ohm and 2 ohm?
kirchatndftbl on 10/2/2008 15:32:07
since your going to run a single sub set up around 1000rms??
a dual 2 ohm single sub would be more efficent with the proper amp since it can be wired parallel to the amp for a total ohmic load of 1 ohm or 4 ohms
while a dual 4 ohm single sub would acheive a total ohmic load of eithe 2ohms or 8ohms
the golds on here can probably explain more pros and cons since im still learning more about car audio but thats pretty much the basics
Victor on 10/2/2008 22:39:42
Ohm - is a unit of measure of resistance ( impedance )
Technically it cannot have its pro's and con's as it is just a "measuring unit".
Ohm's Law defines the relationships between (P) power, (E) voltage, (I) current, and (R) resistance.
( I ) Current is what flows on a wire or conductor like water flowing down a river. Current flows from negative to positive on the surface of a conductor. Current is measured in (A) amperes or amps.
( E ) Voltage is the difference in electrical potential between two points in a circuit. It's the push or pressure behind current flow through a circuit, and is measured in (V) volts.
( R ) Resistance determines how much current will flow through a component. Resistors are used to control voltage and current levels. A very high resistance allows a small amount of current to flow. A very low resistance allows a large amount of current to flow. Resistance is measured in ohms.
( P ) Power is the amount of current times the voltage level at a given point measured in wattage or watts.
German physicist Georg Ohm defined the Ohms Law =
The current through a conductor between two points is directly proportional to the potential difference (i.e. voltage drop or voltage) across the two points, and inversely proportional to the resistance between them.
The mathematical equation that describes this relationship is:
I = V/R
Current = Voltage / Resistance
Interpretation: One ohm of resistance will allow only one ampere of current to flow through a circuit when one volt of electrical force is applied to the circuit.
The voice coil of your drivers ( speakers / subs ) have a certain rated impedance ( for ex. 2 ohm, 4 ohm etc. ), meaning that these voice coils will provide a particular load ( resistance/impedance) to the flow of current.
Every amplifier is designed to run at a particular load.
for ex. an amp rated like this.
300wrms x 1 ch @ 4ohms, 600wrms x 1 ch @ 2 ohms.
meaning
when the amplifier is subjected to a 4 ohm load it will produce 300wrms power ( that translates into 300wrms power produced by a current of 8.66 amperes at a load of 4 ohms, and the voltage measured will be 34.64 Volts according to the ohms law )
now when the load on this amplifier is changed to 2 ohms instead of 4 ohms, the resistance is reduced by half and ideally the power produced will double ie. 600wrms x 1ch @ 2 ohms. ( but this is possible only if the amplifier is designed to take lower loads and maintains its stability at the noted load, also in real world there are many other factors that affect the actual power produced)
some amplifiers are designed to take loads as low as 0.5 ohms, these are high current amps...
the reason we have 2ohms or 4 ohms SVC ( single voice coil) or DVC ( dual voice coil ) is to provide us the different wiring options.
parallel and series wiring can help us get various loads to match with our amplifiers for optimum performance.
Series wiring = When 2 voice coils ( either of the same DVC sub, or 2 SVC subs) are wired in series to the amplifier, their resistance adds up like this.
1 - for example we have two "4ohm SVC subs" rated to take 300wrms power
4 ohm + 4 ohm = 8 ohm ( R1 + R2 = R ) meaning the total load that the amplifier will see is 8 ohms.
now if an amplifier is rated at 300wrms @ 4ohm and it is subject to a 8 ohm load it will produce half the power that is 150wrms, now what is the use of buying a heavy amplifier when u cant get the full potential out of it, and whats the use of buying 2 subs when u cant power them aptly ???
Instead in this scenario what can be done is wire those 4 ohm subs in parallel... when wired in parallel the resistance adds up like under...
1/R = ( 1/R1 + 1/R2 )
therefore:
R = R1 x R2 / R1+R2
hence the net load this amplifier will see when those subs are wired in parallel will be
R = 4x4 / 4+4 = 16/8 = 2 ohms
hence the net load when two 4ohm coils are wired in parallel is 2 ohms
this will extract the most power out of the noted amp. i.e. 600wrms x 1ch @ 2 ohms... each voice coil will get 300wrms in this case.
if you have more than two loads.. i.e. either more than 2 SVC subs or more than one DVC subs, then series /parallel wiring formula would be
Series : R = R1 + R2 + R3 + .......................+ Rn
Parallel : 1/R = 1/R1 + 1/R2 + ........... + 1/Rn
If you got more than one DVC sub, then solve indivudual impedance for each sub first and then use that to caculate the final impedance.
say u got 2 DVC 4 ohm subs and you wire the Voice coil of each sub in series first then
( solving individual impedance first , its like a BODMAS rule)
sub 1 = 4+ 4 = 8 ohms
sub 2 = 4+ 4 = 8 ohms
now if you wanna wire these subs in series then the final impedance would be R = 8 + 8 hence the net load would be 16 ohms,
and if you wire these subs in parallel then it would be
1/R = 1/8 + 1/8 = hence the net load would be 4 ohms.
Hence in a similar fashion one can find an optimum net load while configuring more than one SVC, DVC subs and amp combinations and wiring them for optimum performance.....
to see various wiring options see the following link...
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t33
swez on 10/2/2008 23:11:18
Nice points and your facts are all in a row too Victor. However, this barrage of facts and equations to a newbie will give the poor guy a bad headache as he tries to sort it all out. GRIN
In a nutshell, the class of amplifier used will determine the best resisitive load for the sub used.
Most Class D amps are rated stable at 2 ohms and very efficient at that load level. Most key Mfg's target their best performance amps to a 2 ohm load. Victor's earlier recommendations are spot on if you have the budget for the pairing. (Great choice on HiFonics amp and JL sub)
If a lower budget is what you have, look at the Alpine series mentioned earlier.
Finally, We can give you the basis and say... "Buy this as we know it works well as a pairing". However, if you want to go deeper in electronic theory and how circuits work together, we can lead you there too. www.bcae1.com is a great resource.
http://www.bcae1.com/
Comments?
Swez
newB on 10/3/2008 09:23:22
me be a fan of the more "underground" audio companies would like to throw these names out there-
Fi SSD 800wrms $189.00
www.ficaraudio.com
DC lvl 3 12 $175-200
www.dcsoundlab.com
RE SE 145$
www.reaudio.com
OR follow my long ebay link to see the RE SE
http://cgi.ebay.com/RE-AUDIO-SE12-12-CAR-SUB-WOOFER-SUBWOOFER-SE-12-D4-new_W0QQitemZ390000605635QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item390000605635&_trkparms=72%3A1205
evilscotsman77 on 10/6/2008 21:41:22
Gents, I want to thank you for all the vast knowledge. To be perfectly honest, Victor blew my friggin doors off though. I used to think I was a relatively intelligent man. Im second guessing that now. Anyhow, my original issue was that I ordered a Vega Stroker and found out a month later that it was actually out of stock and I needed advice on a replacement. However, the place I ordered from did the good did of adjusting my order to what they felt was a good choice. I ended up with a Vega V-Max 124 instead. I hope this is a good sub as I already ordered the Alpine MRP-M500 as per Swez's guidance.
Again, thank you all for your support. Will the this Vega and the Alpine pair up well?
Victor on 10/6/2008 22:41:10
Great Choice.....
CV suggest a 1cuft ported enclosure tuned at 37Hz, although I have noticed this sub perform better in a 1.5 cuft ported enclosure tuned at 35Hz.
with that amp, the Vmax should do perfectly well in the 1.5 cu.ft encl.
If you wanna go sealed
CV suggests 0.75 cuft sealed enclosure.. but I have noticed this sub perform way better in a 1.25 cuft sealed enclosure...
this sub pounds if fed well..
It matches well with the alpine amp too...
This sure is a solid performing combo..
Boom Boom Boom..
Victor...
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