Of the same brand and why? :D I know that doubling the RMS (over 300 or so) only adds about +3dB, but how does that compare to adding two extra subwoofers?
Also, 4 subwoofers( 4+4 DVC's) can be wired to make which two ohmic resistances for Parallel / Series?
I think 2 subwoofers(4+4dvc's) can make 1 ohm parallel and 8 ohms series. :D
Replies (24)
newB on 08/29/2008 17:07:40
two Dual 4s can be wired to 1, 4, or 16ohms
More cone area will be louder, but also more expensive. I'm also assuming those wattage specs are RMS per woofer correct??
-Drew
swez on 08/30/2008 03:00:44
Good to see ya back at CK!
Four subs in this car are a big step.
As I recall, you had a custom sub enclosure made for a pair of Eclipse subs. It looked good too, but the internal airspace is restrictive due to limited space in that enclosure. If you can sell that with the woofers and turn a good price, consider a fresh start with better subs, a larger enclosure and go ported for more SPL in the deep bass region.
Comments?
Swez
Ender2 on 08/30/2008 08:39:52
Awesome, thanks NewB and MAN that 18" RE looks pretty insane!
That's what I'm going to do Swez. Wrecked this camaro a few months ago and I'm going to get something else; probably a Z/28 convertible (big trunks) in a few months, so just doing some preliminary thinking about the bass part of the system which I want to revamp. I need the most SPL I can get out of 1,200w RMS which is why I was asking about 2 more subs or double the power. All wattage are in RMS, btw :P Peak power is for noobs ;D
You said 2 Dual 4's can be wired to 1, 4, 16.
1.) What about 4 dual 4's? Is it the same?
2.) Also, I assume that since you said more cones are louder that means that 4 12"s at 300w will be louder than 2 12"s at 600w? approximate Decibel difference here?
Thanks guys! :D
Victor on 08/30/2008 09:16:21
4 x 4ohmDVC's can be wired for 0.5 , 2 or 8 ohms... ( you can get these with a combination of series/parallel wiring...
2ohm is a safe bet with most mono blocks these days..... you will need an amp that puts out 1200wrms@2ohms ...
theoretically,
if total power output of the system remains the same and cone area is doubled, you get a raise of 3db's...
and
if 'Ms'( moving mass ) & 'Vd' (volume displacement) easier said cone area (although it is quite different from Ms & Vd) of the system remains same and the power is doubled, you get a raise of 3db's
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But there are many many more factors like, xmax, sensitivity, enclosure, cabin gain, damping etc, that affect SPL of your bass system.
so the SPL gain one would get on doubling power, or cone area is very very subjective to individual systems and can only be estimated on paper only to be measured precisely with a SPL meter....
SPL also varies with frequency of sound & density of the medium ( in most cases air)
Ender2 on 08/30/2008 10:07:43
So it seems that it's "roughly" the same result. Doubling the Cone Area and Doubling the Power each raise the effective SPL by about +3dB. So if I was planning to do one or the other; I should take the cheapest route. but "Theoretically" it should be the same.... running 2 12" at 600w vs. running 4 12"s at 300w.
My amp is 1ohm stable at 1,200 watts so it's neccessary to find a sub configuration that will allow me to do that, perhaps 4 12" 2x2DVC's? better yet, Swez, can you link me to that all in one electricity site? :D I think that one explains how to determine overall resistances for certain wiring situations with various speaker setups.
Now i'm in a bind, it's obvious that it would be "cheaper" to just get 2 4+4DVCs that will take 600w RMS, but I really wanted to do a 4 sub setup (for looks) :D Is there ANY benefit to doing 4 (with half power) vs. 2 full power?
swez on 08/30/2008 10:11:10
Yeah... what he said! CLAP for Victor!
What amp are you planning to use here Ender? (Make & model #)
FYI: Adding more subs is not always the best way to go. (Alignment and cancellation issues are common unless one really digs deep for a custom designed enclosure. (Competition level guys are hip to that strategy)
If space is not a big issue, consider a pair of premium 12" subs in a larger ported box. In such a small car, should have no trouble filling it with strong bass this way. A good hit list to look at comes from newB in another post and worth looking into his list:
DC
www.dcsoundlab.com
Fi
www.ficaraudio.com
RE
www.reaudio.com
Comments?
Swez
Ender2 on 08/30/2008 10:14:04
Directed Audio D2400. 120A, 1,200w @1 ohm.
Ender2 on 08/30/2008 19:33:27
2 L7's worth the extra 200 bucks?
Looks like I'm shooting for 2 15"s, each getting about 600w RMS.
I will have exactly 1.5ft for these subs in a sealed enclosure. OR
I will have more than 3 ft for each to build a nice ported enclosure. ~ pending if I get the Z28 convertible (big trunk), or Z28 Ttop (small hatch)
Snap, would this be too much for the convertible top to handle when it's up? And since I'd be losing a good bit of cabin gain, what would this system sound like with the top down? :P
Ender2 on 08/30/2008 19:42:12
Oh yeah...
Going to give these things their full requested 1,000wRMS with one of these babies.
Anyone familiar with the HiFonics brand amps? Will this thing REALLY shell out 2,600w RMS? I tried to look for fuses on the amp, but they're not visible from the supplied photos. :P
Victor on 08/30/2008 21:54:32
You are going haywire now....
don't confuse yourself with too many options...
In Car Audio, 10% product selection and 90% Install.
---
most of us, when at an amateur level, love to indulge ourselves in looking at huge subs and powerful amps on websites, and imagine how they would sound and look in our ride... its like we build ice cream castles in the air....
and spend very little time in planning the install and fabricating the system correctly.
anyways.. whats your budget ???
All the noted brands and products on this page are sturdy performers, there is no second doubt about that....2 x15" 4ohmDVC , 600wrms each will be good to go with your amp @ 1ohm....
it ultimately comes down to personal preferences and how well your budget guides you.
apart from a list of crappy manufacturers, wether you choose one brand or another.... all you will gain will be only in the limits of those 10% .... rest 90% will depend on your install....
comments..???
Ender2 on 08/31/2008 06:42:10
Well, this will be my third install, and trust me :P I know the difference between a good install and a bad install, I wanna do some "veteran" stuff, as in building my own ported enclosure to optimize low SPL around 34hz.
As far as going haywire, I don't think so. I'm just picking a nice SPL system.
Budget? Probably close to $1,000. As far as the install goes, like I said, I know the importance of a good install and also the importance of a balanced EQ after the install is complete, I know several methods of reducing rattle.
Please don't assume I'm a kid getting excited at big numbers on a website. If I ask for an opinion about a particular piece of gear, I'm not just getting excited; it's definitely a possible option and a good one too (for the application here.)
1.)So, 2 of the L7 solobaric's around 1000wrms in a 3ft ported box @ around 34-40hz? Will this be SAFE for a Convertible closed rooftop?
2.) If I upgrade my D2400 to the Hifonics, I'll be going from around 600w RMS to 1,000w RMS (on the kickers), which though isn't quite doubled, will be a "noticeable" difference from what I have now, 2 sealed 12's 1.5ft apiece.
Generally speaking, remembering occam's razor (and a good install) 2 ported 15" subs @ 1000wRMS ported @ 34-40hz with efficiencies over 87dB <1% will provide MUCH more SPL than 2 12" subs at 600wRMS in a sealed enclosure. Why is that going haywire?
Victor on 08/31/2008 07:31:47
thanks.... good to know that you have enough clarity for what you want....
SAFE... well as far as the electricals of your car can support it... its all SAFE... meaning the ALT, BATT and the BIG 3...........
2x15" @600wrms each will definitely give you a noticeable difference., compared to 2 x 12" @600wrms....ofcourse with a suitable enclosure...
working with convertibles is a bit tricky as opposed to regular hard top cars....
you will have to experiment with location and orientation of your subs to get optimum performance....
the Hifonics amp you mentioned is a trustworthy performer...and so are the L7 solo's ....
just be very precise and plan your system well... am sure you will net an impressive outcome....
Victor....
swez on 08/31/2008 08:07:14
Hold on a minute here felllas, I think we have to remain focused on the task at hand and look at options that make sense and keep the budget in line with the plan. (Changes in plans are just part of the sorting process... thinking out loud?)
Ender,
That 1200 watt amp mentioned should get the job done well enough with efficient subs and a well-designed, ported enclosure. Since both amps are rated for 1 ohm loads, that's the target to match up subs with. Just remember that going from 1200 watts to 2600 watts means a substantial draw in current will need to be addressed.
1. A 1200 watt amp consumes about 120 Amps at full power. To handle that and what the vehicle needs to operate properly, will be about 175 Amps of current. (Stock ALT, H.O. BAT at minimum)
2. A 2600 watt amp consumes about 230 Amps at full power. This plus another 50A's for the car means a power supply that can deliver a solid 250-275 A's of current. (H.O. ALT and 2 H.O. BATS) That's pretty expensive huh?
3. Kicker Solo's do best in large format trucks, vans and SUV's. They work well in 3.0 cf ported per sub and better when closer to 6.0 cf per sub.
Asking the obvious questions here...
A. Got room for that much wood? (8-14 cf externally)
B. Willing to upgrade the electrical sysyem to support them?
C. Adding this extra weight will change the handling/performance of this car considerably.
Think this over carefully as the plan develops. If you like the D2400 already, consider one more since you have one now. (1 amp per sub is a good option when using 2+2 DVC's)
Seriously, consider a different sub that is less power hungry, more efficient use of space and won't blow your budget.
Comments?
Swez
PS I know Victor well, (5 years at CK) and he's top notch and now owns his own Car Audio biz. He was not dissing anyone. He's from India, a good friend and may have choosen a few terse comments, but unintentionally. Now, can we move forward and plan as a team?
PSS Mind deleting the long links. (Get the pages back to readable space) The Make and Model numbers are well known here, so that is adequate. If we need a a link, we'll ask. Thanks!
Ender2 on 08/31/2008 19:29:47
Very good point Swez, and I really don't want to have to go beyond 1 H.O Alt, and 1 H.O Bat, so looks like I may end up sticking with the 1,200wRMS (not to mention I'll already be pulling another 400wRMS for the 4channel that I'm running)
Any other good 15" recommendations around 3-5ft ported?
Going to do some number crunches to see what the stock electrical system pulls from the ALT and some possibilities for a high end ALT, just to keep the dream alive for the possibility of the L7's and the 2,000w Hifonics amp. Will update tomorrow and let you know if they L7's are completely out of the question.
Deleted the links, thanks again guys! will update soon.
Victor on 08/31/2008 21:50:56
Dave... just wondered over the term "terse" .. checked it up the dictionary... and it meant - "smoothly elegant & devoid of superfluity" ...
if thats what it really means then they were intentional.... GRIN ...
Ender if I have understood your desire for the system correctly then...
Budget allotting
- $300 for HO alt ( above 250 amps ).
- $200 for a deep cycle battery.
- $400 for a pair of reputed subs. in the range of 600 - 1000wrms.
- $300 for a sturdy amp to power the noted subs.
- $150 for cabling, wiring and accessories.
- $100 for sound damping.
- $100 for self made enclosure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- $1550 for the entire upgrade.
Which i suppose you are not willing to spend at this moment..
then, you will have to decide ... whether you want to achieve the aim you have set, as a step by step process, or you would choose to compromise on a few levels and get the entire thing done at one go in the budget of $1000 ?
comments ???
Victor...
swez on 09/1/2008 03:06:28
Vic, another side of the word terse: "abruptly concise; curt; brusque"
That was the intended meaning for use of the adjective. ;-)
Moving along, with the stated budget and Vic's outline on costing estimates, think this over and if you want to go big SPL Bass, do it in well-planned stages.
A single strong 15" sub has merit here. They tend to be several dB more efficient then 10's & 12's of similar makes. Larger voice coils are the key to high power handling and the larger cone area will move plenty of air. The lower the mass of the cone and greater magnetic flux in the motor structure help up the SPL efficiencies. (Plus cabin gain and a well-tuned ported enclosure)
The amps mentioned on hand now are going to pull about 175A's of current at full power. Under daily driver listening levels, cut that number by 40-60%.
In a nutshell, an efficient 15" sub that can handle 1Kw + is the target for the Directed D2400. Can we agree on that for now and search out a brand that fits? (2+2 DVC)
Comments?
Swez
Victor on 09/1/2008 08:13:39
If ender came to me as a client.. this is what i would propose to sell
After studying him as a consumer...
A pair of 'Resonant Engineering SE15D4' to go with his amp.... with an optima yellow top , with a 2 farad capacitor...make him a sturdy ported enclosure tuned between 35 to 40 Hz........ to see a smile on his face...
The entire package for $900 + complimentary neon lighting in the boot, and also do the install for free as he is our new customer...and always do free installs for him, as he is going to be our valued customer..
Ender goes home happy , saving $100, satisfied with the result and happy showing off his 2 15" subs and the flashy cap, and brings me new clients cause i do a free install with complimentary gifts, save them money, and send them booming down the streets...
GRIN GRIN just making a pun on how most of these dealers work with their clients...
GRIN GRIN
Anyways.. jokes apart...
Ender,
Do consider those RE subs i mentioned above, you'll find a good deal for these on ebay a tad bit lower than $400 a pair + shipping, they sell at MSRP $399 each .
Also consider the optima yellow top, for now you can do a BIG 3 upgrade with the new battery and see how it works before u decide to buy a new HO alt.
Those subs pack a punch and will match well with your amp, put them in a 35Hz tuned ported enclosure and you'll be a happy boomer.
Caps are audio jewelery we dealers sell to earn our extra bit...
Comments...???
Victor
Ender2 on 09/2/2008 19:56:23
I agree with you here Victor, 2 of those subs will be a PERFECT match for the D2400. 600w RMS per sub is PERFECT for me to just turn up the gain all the way on my D2400 and not worry about blowing anything, and since they're RE, I'm sure they can stand a few dB boost on my EQ... after they're worked in.. of course.
Couple notes:
I already have an Optima Red Top battery, so the only thing I would need for this install; is of course the box, 0 GA, and the subs, So, around $500 if I snag a good deal.
Swez, I have no doubt that a single 15" would be more efficient than 2 10's or 2 12's, but to find a single one that handles 1,200w RMS just doesn't seem.... symmetrical? :)
In a nutshell:
Looks like I'm going to stick with the D2400, with 1,200wRMS @ 1ohm!
Victor has suggested two SD15D2's, while Swez has suggested a singular 15" with a bit over 1kw power handling. I checked Crutchfield for a 15" that could handle 1kw RMS and came up empty handed, any suggestions? But, either way, we should say that 2 15's @ 600w should rivale 1 15' @ 1.2kw RMS in SPL, so in turn it really matters which option I like better; and which is cheaper.
Victor on 09/2/2008 20:59:06
as i told u before.... it is not necessary that 2 x15" @600wrms each can produce more SPL than a single 15" @1200wrms...
there are a lot of other factors that work when it comes to actual SPL levels..
A Sub performs at its best when powered in a range of +/- 33% of the rated power handling . DEPENDING ON type and size of enclosure......
so since you have a 1200wrms amp, look for a sub thats 1000wrms to 1500wrms
if you are looking at a single 15" that can handle 1000wrms-1500wrms then there are tonnes of such subs out there in the market...
but you have since the beginning been leaning onto more number of subs, and you like symmetry in install ;) , i thought it appropriate to suggest you 2 15", because that is what you have been wanting to see in your car.
.. where as swez knows well that one solid 15" sub when given 1200wrms can be a beast, so he suggested a single sub , keeping in mind the size of your car, saving some money, ease of install and space saving in the boot.
The end result of either choice will not be a huge difference in terms of SPL or sound quality, if installed properly.
So I was suggesting why not spend a tad bit more to satisfy yourself, and swez was suggesting why not save a tad bit if the end results are not going to be tooo different.
It simply becomes a matter of your personal preferences.
comments...???
Victor...
Ender2 on 09/2/2008 21:26:13
Very well put! And you're right... not a HUGE difference in terms of SPL or sound quality when installed properly.. so it comes down to preference, budget, trunk space.. and I think I have enough of the last two to pick up 2 15's instead of a single. We'll see.
Oh yeah, mind showing me where to find some 1kw 15"s? :) Thanks!
Victor on 09/2/2008 21:40:34
All of these on ebay
Resonant Engineering SX15D2
Diamond Audio D915D2
Kicker 08S15L72
Memphis 15-M3MOJO15
Soundstream T5-15
Resonant Engineering MX-15 D2 (1500wrms)
Resonant Engineering SX18D2 (and the MX18 - 18" version, see newB's post )
you will find many many more... on other online stores, and other manufacturers
again it comes to the matter of personal preferences, and liking for specific brands..
Victor...
Ender2 on 09/2/2008 21:44:57
the SX15D2 is 4dB more efficient and has a Maximum excursion 4mm larger than the other 15's.... Hrm..
::His best Yoda impression::
Ponder on this.. I shall..
Victor on 09/2/2008 22:24:12
One more thing,,,,,
This is what you wrote...
"""I agree with you here Victor, 2 of those subs will be a PERFECT match for the D2400. 600w RMS per sub is PERFECT for me to just turn up the gain all the way on my D2400 and not worry about blowing anything, and since they're RE, I'm sure they can stand a few dB boost on my EQ... after they're worked in.. of course."""
those may be a good match , or u can even say a perfect match...
BUT... you cannot turn up the gain all the way up, cause GAIN control is NOT a Volume Control.......... And if you do turn it up all the way, you are sure to KILL your subs of distortion.
GAIN setting of your amps depends on the Voltage your Head unit puts out at the RCA level...... and NOT on the type, size, power rating or impedence of subs you use with the amp..
For ex. If your head unit has 2 Volt preouts then the gain setting on the amp should be at 2 Volts..... , if your head unit puts out 4 Volts at RCA outs then the gain setting on the amp should be at 4 Volts.....
And since your subs are a good brand it doesnt mean they can take a few db's of bass bost eq well... because that depends on the type and size of enclosure your subs are in, and also on the power you give to your subs.... with higher Bass Boost or Eq settings, you are prone to introduce higher levels of distortion into the signal and ultimately harming the speakers/subs.....
Hope that helps...
Victor...
newB on 09/3/2008 05:10:11
Victor i just noted your suggesting a 15" RE MX GRIN
In case Ender didn't know- its a beast.
if you ever go single woofer route i would highly recommend it. Although i have not finished with the MX 18 in my setup, what initial testing of i've done has had great results.
also, the DC line looks like it matches up very nice
15" DC lvl 3- is 600wrms
15" DC lvl 4- is 1000wrms
both under-rated and very reliable
lvl 4s can be had for a little under 300$ each and the lvl 3s for a bit under 200$ each, from rusty himself. you will not have to go through a shady ebay dealer to get them.
-Drew
(gain is NOT volume and clipped signal will kill any speaker regardless of thermal or mechanical RMS)
Also, 4 subwoofers( 4+4 DVC's) can be wired to make which two ohmic resistances for Parallel / Series?
I think 2 subwoofers(4+4dvc's) can make 1 ohm parallel and 8 ohms series. :D
Replies (24)
newB on 08/29/2008 17:07:40
two Dual 4s can be wired to 1, 4, or 16ohms
More cone area will be louder, but also more expensive. I'm also assuming those wattage specs are RMS per woofer correct??
-Drew
swez on 08/30/2008 03:00:44
Good to see ya back at CK!
Four subs in this car are a big step.
As I recall, you had a custom sub enclosure made for a pair of Eclipse subs. It looked good too, but the internal airspace is restrictive due to limited space in that enclosure. If you can sell that with the woofers and turn a good price, consider a fresh start with better subs, a larger enclosure and go ported for more SPL in the deep bass region.
Comments?
Swez
Ender2 on 08/30/2008 08:39:52
Awesome, thanks NewB and MAN that 18" RE looks pretty insane!
That's what I'm going to do Swez. Wrecked this camaro a few months ago and I'm going to get something else; probably a Z/28 convertible (big trunks) in a few months, so just doing some preliminary thinking about the bass part of the system which I want to revamp. I need the most SPL I can get out of 1,200w RMS which is why I was asking about 2 more subs or double the power. All wattage are in RMS, btw :P Peak power is for noobs ;D
You said 2 Dual 4's can be wired to 1, 4, 16.
1.) What about 4 dual 4's? Is it the same?
2.) Also, I assume that since you said more cones are louder that means that 4 12"s at 300w will be louder than 2 12"s at 600w? approximate Decibel difference here?
Thanks guys! :D
Victor on 08/30/2008 09:16:21
4 x 4ohmDVC's can be wired for 0.5 , 2 or 8 ohms... ( you can get these with a combination of series/parallel wiring...
2ohm is a safe bet with most mono blocks these days..... you will need an amp that puts out 1200wrms@2ohms ...
theoretically,
if total power output of the system remains the same and cone area is doubled, you get a raise of 3db's...
and
if 'Ms'( moving mass ) & 'Vd' (volume displacement) easier said cone area (although it is quite different from Ms & Vd) of the system remains same and the power is doubled, you get a raise of 3db's
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But there are many many more factors like, xmax, sensitivity, enclosure, cabin gain, damping etc, that affect SPL of your bass system.
so the SPL gain one would get on doubling power, or cone area is very very subjective to individual systems and can only be estimated on paper only to be measured precisely with a SPL meter....
SPL also varies with frequency of sound & density of the medium ( in most cases air)
Ender2 on 08/30/2008 10:07:43
So it seems that it's "roughly" the same result. Doubling the Cone Area and Doubling the Power each raise the effective SPL by about +3dB. So if I was planning to do one or the other; I should take the cheapest route. but "Theoretically" it should be the same.... running 2 12" at 600w vs. running 4 12"s at 300w.
My amp is 1ohm stable at 1,200 watts so it's neccessary to find a sub configuration that will allow me to do that, perhaps 4 12" 2x2DVC's? better yet, Swez, can you link me to that all in one electricity site? :D I think that one explains how to determine overall resistances for certain wiring situations with various speaker setups.
Now i'm in a bind, it's obvious that it would be "cheaper" to just get 2 4+4DVCs that will take 600w RMS, but I really wanted to do a 4 sub setup (for looks) :D Is there ANY benefit to doing 4 (with half power) vs. 2 full power?
swez on 08/30/2008 10:11:10
Yeah... what he said! CLAP for Victor!
What amp are you planning to use here Ender? (Make & model #)
FYI: Adding more subs is not always the best way to go. (Alignment and cancellation issues are common unless one really digs deep for a custom designed enclosure. (Competition level guys are hip to that strategy)
If space is not a big issue, consider a pair of premium 12" subs in a larger ported box. In such a small car, should have no trouble filling it with strong bass this way. A good hit list to look at comes from newB in another post and worth looking into his list:
DC
www.dcsoundlab.com
Fi
www.ficaraudio.com
RE
www.reaudio.com
Comments?
Swez
Ender2 on 08/30/2008 10:14:04
Directed Audio D2400. 120A, 1,200w @1 ohm.
Ender2 on 08/30/2008 19:33:27
2 L7's worth the extra 200 bucks?
Looks like I'm shooting for 2 15"s, each getting about 600w RMS.
I will have exactly 1.5ft for these subs in a sealed enclosure. OR
I will have more than 3 ft for each to build a nice ported enclosure. ~ pending if I get the Z28 convertible (big trunk), or Z28 Ttop (small hatch)
Snap, would this be too much for the convertible top to handle when it's up? And since I'd be losing a good bit of cabin gain, what would this system sound like with the top down? :P
Ender2 on 08/30/2008 19:42:12
Oh yeah...
Going to give these things their full requested 1,000wRMS with one of these babies.
Anyone familiar with the HiFonics brand amps? Will this thing REALLY shell out 2,600w RMS? I tried to look for fuses on the amp, but they're not visible from the supplied photos. :P
Victor on 08/30/2008 21:54:32
You are going haywire now....
don't confuse yourself with too many options...
In Car Audio, 10% product selection and 90% Install.
---
most of us, when at an amateur level, love to indulge ourselves in looking at huge subs and powerful amps on websites, and imagine how they would sound and look in our ride... its like we build ice cream castles in the air....
and spend very little time in planning the install and fabricating the system correctly.
anyways.. whats your budget ???
All the noted brands and products on this page are sturdy performers, there is no second doubt about that....2 x15" 4ohmDVC , 600wrms each will be good to go with your amp @ 1ohm....
it ultimately comes down to personal preferences and how well your budget guides you.
apart from a list of crappy manufacturers, wether you choose one brand or another.... all you will gain will be only in the limits of those 10% .... rest 90% will depend on your install....
comments..???
Ender2 on 08/31/2008 06:42:10
Well, this will be my third install, and trust me :P I know the difference between a good install and a bad install, I wanna do some "veteran" stuff, as in building my own ported enclosure to optimize low SPL around 34hz.
As far as going haywire, I don't think so. I'm just picking a nice SPL system.
Budget? Probably close to $1,000. As far as the install goes, like I said, I know the importance of a good install and also the importance of a balanced EQ after the install is complete, I know several methods of reducing rattle.
Please don't assume I'm a kid getting excited at big numbers on a website. If I ask for an opinion about a particular piece of gear, I'm not just getting excited; it's definitely a possible option and a good one too (for the application here.)
1.)So, 2 of the L7 solobaric's around 1000wrms in a 3ft ported box @ around 34-40hz? Will this be SAFE for a Convertible closed rooftop?
2.) If I upgrade my D2400 to the Hifonics, I'll be going from around 600w RMS to 1,000w RMS (on the kickers), which though isn't quite doubled, will be a "noticeable" difference from what I have now, 2 sealed 12's 1.5ft apiece.
Generally speaking, remembering occam's razor (and a good install) 2 ported 15" subs @ 1000wRMS ported @ 34-40hz with efficiencies over 87dB <1% will provide MUCH more SPL than 2 12" subs at 600wRMS in a sealed enclosure. Why is that going haywire?
Victor on 08/31/2008 07:31:47
thanks.... good to know that you have enough clarity for what you want....
SAFE... well as far as the electricals of your car can support it... its all SAFE... meaning the ALT, BATT and the BIG 3...........
2x15" @600wrms each will definitely give you a noticeable difference., compared to 2 x 12" @600wrms....ofcourse with a suitable enclosure...
working with convertibles is a bit tricky as opposed to regular hard top cars....
you will have to experiment with location and orientation of your subs to get optimum performance....
the Hifonics amp you mentioned is a trustworthy performer...and so are the L7 solo's ....
just be very precise and plan your system well... am sure you will net an impressive outcome....
Victor....
swez on 08/31/2008 08:07:14
Hold on a minute here felllas, I think we have to remain focused on the task at hand and look at options that make sense and keep the budget in line with the plan. (Changes in plans are just part of the sorting process... thinking out loud?)
Ender,
That 1200 watt amp mentioned should get the job done well enough with efficient subs and a well-designed, ported enclosure. Since both amps are rated for 1 ohm loads, that's the target to match up subs with. Just remember that going from 1200 watts to 2600 watts means a substantial draw in current will need to be addressed.
1. A 1200 watt amp consumes about 120 Amps at full power. To handle that and what the vehicle needs to operate properly, will be about 175 Amps of current. (Stock ALT, H.O. BAT at minimum)
2. A 2600 watt amp consumes about 230 Amps at full power. This plus another 50A's for the car means a power supply that can deliver a solid 250-275 A's of current. (H.O. ALT and 2 H.O. BATS) That's pretty expensive huh?
3. Kicker Solo's do best in large format trucks, vans and SUV's. They work well in 3.0 cf ported per sub and better when closer to 6.0 cf per sub.
Asking the obvious questions here...
A. Got room for that much wood? (8-14 cf externally)
B. Willing to upgrade the electrical sysyem to support them?
C. Adding this extra weight will change the handling/performance of this car considerably.
Think this over carefully as the plan develops. If you like the D2400 already, consider one more since you have one now. (1 amp per sub is a good option when using 2+2 DVC's)
Seriously, consider a different sub that is less power hungry, more efficient use of space and won't blow your budget.
Comments?
Swez
PS I know Victor well, (5 years at CK) and he's top notch and now owns his own Car Audio biz. He was not dissing anyone. He's from India, a good friend and may have choosen a few terse comments, but unintentionally. Now, can we move forward and plan as a team?
PSS Mind deleting the long links. (Get the pages back to readable space) The Make and Model numbers are well known here, so that is adequate. If we need a a link, we'll ask. Thanks!
Ender2 on 08/31/2008 19:29:47
Very good point Swez, and I really don't want to have to go beyond 1 H.O Alt, and 1 H.O Bat, so looks like I may end up sticking with the 1,200wRMS (not to mention I'll already be pulling another 400wRMS for the 4channel that I'm running)
Any other good 15" recommendations around 3-5ft ported?
Going to do some number crunches to see what the stock electrical system pulls from the ALT and some possibilities for a high end ALT, just to keep the dream alive for the possibility of the L7's and the 2,000w Hifonics amp. Will update tomorrow and let you know if they L7's are completely out of the question.
Deleted the links, thanks again guys! will update soon.
Victor on 08/31/2008 21:50:56
Dave... just wondered over the term "terse" .. checked it up the dictionary... and it meant - "smoothly elegant & devoid of superfluity" ...
if thats what it really means then they were intentional.... GRIN ...
Ender if I have understood your desire for the system correctly then...
Budget allotting
- $300 for HO alt ( above 250 amps ).
- $200 for a deep cycle battery.
- $400 for a pair of reputed subs. in the range of 600 - 1000wrms.
- $300 for a sturdy amp to power the noted subs.
- $150 for cabling, wiring and accessories.
- $100 for sound damping.
- $100 for self made enclosure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- $1550 for the entire upgrade.
Which i suppose you are not willing to spend at this moment..
then, you will have to decide ... whether you want to achieve the aim you have set, as a step by step process, or you would choose to compromise on a few levels and get the entire thing done at one go in the budget of $1000 ?
comments ???
Victor...
swez on 09/1/2008 03:06:28
Vic, another side of the word terse: "abruptly concise; curt; brusque"
That was the intended meaning for use of the adjective. ;-)
Moving along, with the stated budget and Vic's outline on costing estimates, think this over and if you want to go big SPL Bass, do it in well-planned stages.
A single strong 15" sub has merit here. They tend to be several dB more efficient then 10's & 12's of similar makes. Larger voice coils are the key to high power handling and the larger cone area will move plenty of air. The lower the mass of the cone and greater magnetic flux in the motor structure help up the SPL efficiencies. (Plus cabin gain and a well-tuned ported enclosure)
The amps mentioned on hand now are going to pull about 175A's of current at full power. Under daily driver listening levels, cut that number by 40-60%.
In a nutshell, an efficient 15" sub that can handle 1Kw + is the target for the Directed D2400. Can we agree on that for now and search out a brand that fits? (2+2 DVC)
Comments?
Swez
Victor on 09/1/2008 08:13:39
If ender came to me as a client.. this is what i would propose to sell
After studying him as a consumer...
A pair of 'Resonant Engineering SE15D4' to go with his amp.... with an optima yellow top , with a 2 farad capacitor...make him a sturdy ported enclosure tuned between 35 to 40 Hz........ to see a smile on his face...
The entire package for $900 + complimentary neon lighting in the boot, and also do the install for free as he is our new customer...and always do free installs for him, as he is going to be our valued customer..
Ender goes home happy , saving $100, satisfied with the result and happy showing off his 2 15" subs and the flashy cap, and brings me new clients cause i do a free install with complimentary gifts, save them money, and send them booming down the streets...
GRIN GRIN just making a pun on how most of these dealers work with their clients...
GRIN GRIN
Anyways.. jokes apart...
Ender,
Do consider those RE subs i mentioned above, you'll find a good deal for these on ebay a tad bit lower than $400 a pair + shipping, they sell at MSRP $399 each .
Also consider the optima yellow top, for now you can do a BIG 3 upgrade with the new battery and see how it works before u decide to buy a new HO alt.
Those subs pack a punch and will match well with your amp, put them in a 35Hz tuned ported enclosure and you'll be a happy boomer.
Caps are audio jewelery we dealers sell to earn our extra bit...
Comments...???
Victor
Ender2 on 09/2/2008 19:56:23
I agree with you here Victor, 2 of those subs will be a PERFECT match for the D2400. 600w RMS per sub is PERFECT for me to just turn up the gain all the way on my D2400 and not worry about blowing anything, and since they're RE, I'm sure they can stand a few dB boost on my EQ... after they're worked in.. of course.
Couple notes:
I already have an Optima Red Top battery, so the only thing I would need for this install; is of course the box, 0 GA, and the subs, So, around $500 if I snag a good deal.
Swez, I have no doubt that a single 15" would be more efficient than 2 10's or 2 12's, but to find a single one that handles 1,200w RMS just doesn't seem.... symmetrical? :)
In a nutshell:
Looks like I'm going to stick with the D2400, with 1,200wRMS @ 1ohm!
Victor has suggested two SD15D2's, while Swez has suggested a singular 15" with a bit over 1kw power handling. I checked Crutchfield for a 15" that could handle 1kw RMS and came up empty handed, any suggestions? But, either way, we should say that 2 15's @ 600w should rivale 1 15' @ 1.2kw RMS in SPL, so in turn it really matters which option I like better; and which is cheaper.
Victor on 09/2/2008 20:59:06
as i told u before.... it is not necessary that 2 x15" @600wrms each can produce more SPL than a single 15" @1200wrms...
there are a lot of other factors that work when it comes to actual SPL levels..
A Sub performs at its best when powered in a range of +/- 33% of the rated power handling . DEPENDING ON type and size of enclosure......
so since you have a 1200wrms amp, look for a sub thats 1000wrms to 1500wrms
if you are looking at a single 15" that can handle 1000wrms-1500wrms then there are tonnes of such subs out there in the market...
but you have since the beginning been leaning onto more number of subs, and you like symmetry in install ;) , i thought it appropriate to suggest you 2 15", because that is what you have been wanting to see in your car.
.. where as swez knows well that one solid 15" sub when given 1200wrms can be a beast, so he suggested a single sub , keeping in mind the size of your car, saving some money, ease of install and space saving in the boot.
The end result of either choice will not be a huge difference in terms of SPL or sound quality, if installed properly.
So I was suggesting why not spend a tad bit more to satisfy yourself, and swez was suggesting why not save a tad bit if the end results are not going to be tooo different.
It simply becomes a matter of your personal preferences.
comments...???
Victor...
Ender2 on 09/2/2008 21:26:13
Very well put! And you're right... not a HUGE difference in terms of SPL or sound quality when installed properly.. so it comes down to preference, budget, trunk space.. and I think I have enough of the last two to pick up 2 15's instead of a single. We'll see.
Oh yeah, mind showing me where to find some 1kw 15"s? :) Thanks!
Victor on 09/2/2008 21:40:34
All of these on ebay
Resonant Engineering SX15D2
Diamond Audio D915D2
Kicker 08S15L72
Memphis 15-M3MOJO15
Soundstream T5-15
Resonant Engineering MX-15 D2 (1500wrms)
Resonant Engineering SX18D2 (and the MX18 - 18" version, see newB's post )
you will find many many more... on other online stores, and other manufacturers
again it comes to the matter of personal preferences, and liking for specific brands..
Victor...
Ender2 on 09/2/2008 21:44:57
the SX15D2 is 4dB more efficient and has a Maximum excursion 4mm larger than the other 15's.... Hrm..
::His best Yoda impression::
Ponder on this.. I shall..
Victor on 09/2/2008 22:24:12
One more thing,,,,,
This is what you wrote...
"""I agree with you here Victor, 2 of those subs will be a PERFECT match for the D2400. 600w RMS per sub is PERFECT for me to just turn up the gain all the way on my D2400 and not worry about blowing anything, and since they're RE, I'm sure they can stand a few dB boost on my EQ... after they're worked in.. of course."""
those may be a good match , or u can even say a perfect match...
BUT... you cannot turn up the gain all the way up, cause GAIN control is NOT a Volume Control.......... And if you do turn it up all the way, you are sure to KILL your subs of distortion.
GAIN setting of your amps depends on the Voltage your Head unit puts out at the RCA level...... and NOT on the type, size, power rating or impedence of subs you use with the amp..
For ex. If your head unit has 2 Volt preouts then the gain setting on the amp should be at 2 Volts..... , if your head unit puts out 4 Volts at RCA outs then the gain setting on the amp should be at 4 Volts.....
And since your subs are a good brand it doesnt mean they can take a few db's of bass bost eq well... because that depends on the type and size of enclosure your subs are in, and also on the power you give to your subs.... with higher Bass Boost or Eq settings, you are prone to introduce higher levels of distortion into the signal and ultimately harming the speakers/subs.....
Hope that helps...
Victor...
newB on 09/3/2008 05:10:11
Victor i just noted your suggesting a 15" RE MX GRIN
In case Ender didn't know- its a beast.
if you ever go single woofer route i would highly recommend it. Although i have not finished with the MX 18 in my setup, what initial testing of i've done has had great results.
also, the DC line looks like it matches up very nice
15" DC lvl 3- is 600wrms
15" DC lvl 4- is 1000wrms
both under-rated and very reliable
lvl 4s can be had for a little under 300$ each and the lvl 3s for a bit under 200$ each, from rusty himself. you will not have to go through a shady ebay dealer to get them.
-Drew
(gain is NOT volume and clipped signal will kill any speaker regardless of thermal or mechanical RMS)
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