Since I got my new amp back, and my other sub came in, I have it all hooked up in my car. It consists of Alpine PDX-1.1000 an Alpine MRP-M1000 and two Alpine type-x 12"subs. They both have individual slot ported enclosures, sounds excellent, but was wondering how do you really match the same subs with different series amps?
And one more off the top question... I have a 2006 Dodge Charger R/T and when I just had one hooked up there was some dimmage with my lights. Now that there are 2 of em hooked up there is a serious dimmage with every light and even my H/U dvd screen! I have a Kinetic HC600 batt. but was wondering if i may need 2 to stop the power drainage? I haven't hooked the battery up yet!
Replies (53)
swez on 08/25/2008 00:51:42
Yep, you have a problem on your hands all right with power management issues and 2 large amps. If the Charger is like the Dodge Magnum, they offer a 130-140A ALT under the hood and the battery is in the rear stowage area?
You may indeed need 2 Kinetic batteries in parallel to limit the light dimming issues. The other side of the equation would be to upgrade
to a H.O. ALT that can deliver 250-300 A's of current as well. That won't be cheap either. (The pair of amps will draw close to 175 A's of current at full power alone) Egads!
To match outputs from each amp, you'll need a Digital Multimeter, (DMM) to measure speaker voltage to each sub. Test tones work best here and we adjust each amp gain setting until both subs are getting the same voltage readings. Target voltage at full power will be 44.7 Volts AC per sub. (Figure about $20.00 for a good DMM)
Got all that?
Swez
T-RAY on 08/25/2008 04:11:22
Kudos there Swez! My step dad has all kinds of electronic gadgets and I'm sure he'll be more than happy to help me out with it! As far as the pricing goes, I got my first kinetic off my cousin and a line driver for 100 bucks! So I know they are not cheap (I believe about 200 bucks for the HC600?)
What does that high output alt run about? Im guessing anywhere from 200 to about 400 bucks? And you are correct about the stowage area batt and ampere of the alt!
swez on 08/25/2008 05:20:34
The HC600 is fine for starter functions but will be very inadequate for powering amps of this magnitude. Kinetik's calculator recommends the HC2000/HC2400 for a 2000+ watt amping system. It's not cheap, but if you shop around, it may be a lot cheaper than a H.O. ALT. (130-140 A's is pretty strong already and the H.O. BAT should help a lot w/ the light dimming) Just shut off the bass a while and let the charging system top off the batteries.
http://www.kinetikaudio.com/hc2000.asp
http://www.kinetikaudio.com/faq.asp (Good FAQ to read)
Helped another CK'er on his 06 Magnum and getting a H.O. ALT for that location is not easy or cheap. So, he opted for a larger BAT and this is fed from the ALT ~ #2 gage cable. (#2 cable is rated at 200 A's or so. When hitting the heavy bass, feel the cable jacket for excessive heating. If it gets soft or begins to melt... shut er down IMMEDIATELY!
You'll have to remove that cable and install 1/0 wiring in its place. (+300 A current rated) Not an easy task either.
Swez
T-RAY on 08/25/2008 16:00:11
So it would prolly be best to go with the big kinetic huh?
Since my battery is already located in the trunk, would it be ok to just run that kinetic strait to the main batt.? Or would I need to do like you said and feed a #2 cable from the alt to the kinetic?
Also... instead of running a #2 from the start would it be ok to just go ahead and up to the 1/0?THINK
swez on 08/26/2008 02:53:40
Going to the larger Kinetik's battery for your sub amps only is highly recommended. The HC2000/2400 will add buffer current to keep your amps well supplied. The HC600 is the primary battery for start and run functions of the car and also helps add additional power to your entire system.
As for wiring, I think it would be wise to insert a 200A ANL type inline fuse between your HC Bats and the amplifiers. (HC2000 or HC2400) If the fuse blows, the amps will shut off, but your car will still run properly and continue to charge both batteries. Doing this will protect your HC Bats, stock wiring and good for your amps too. Like this:
ALT++++++HC600++++HC2000+++++(FUSE)+++++Amps A&B
GND----------HC600------------------------HC2000--------Amp GND to chassis
See how that works?
Swez
T-RAY on 08/26/2008 14:59:37
Right now I don't have the 600 hooked up @ all. I only have the stock batt. supplying all the power. And instead of my amps being grounded to the chasis I just ran them back to the main batt.
Plus being as everything but the alt. is located in the trunk, I figured that I just could jump a power from the main battery to the HC as well as the ground. I currently am using a 150A ANL fuse from my main battery to the power dist. block. This is my current setup:
ALT++++++Main Bat+++++++FUSE+++++Amps A&B
GND----------Main Bat---------Amp GND to Main Bat
Sort of like a closed loop system. I figured since the batt was there couldn't hurt to GND everything on it. And I thought adding my current HC to the equasion along with another would solve the problem. But if you say (or the kinetic calc) I should have at least the HC2000 then I will just go ahead with the prchase and hook it all up when I get back home. Cause I've exhausted myself with looking for a HO alt for my car!!!
swez on 08/26/2008 16:22:47
The combination of the HC600 & the HC2000 and fused as mentioned would be great. If you elected to go for only one battery in the rear, consider the HC2400 and amps fused at 150-200A's.
I see your point on grounds and that should be OK. Whatever seems best in ease of install is good as long as the fuse is the proper value and #4 wires to each amp will be short.
As for the H.O. Alternator for this car, it is indeed like looking for "hen's teeth". (Pretty hard to find as hen's do not have teeth) LOL
Keep plugging away,
Swez
T-RAY on 08/27/2008 12:32:28
So just adding the HC2000 with the stock batt wouldn't sufice?
I believe my #4s to my amps are only about 3 ft apiece, but my GND's are pretty long! I had asked an installer at the shop where I purchased my goods about just grounding everything to the main batt and he said that it would be fine even though they would be over 5 ft because it was going back to my main power source.
Now one thing I'm stuck on is the HC in the trunk. Are you saying to do away with the main batt and just use HC's? And if so, wouldn't it be ok to just add the 2000/2400 to the main batt????
swez on 08/28/2008 09:53:19
There are several options if you wish: (All Kinetcik's BAT's would be best)
1. Use the HC600 as your starter BAT.
2. Add an HC2000 in parallel to your HC600 and see how that works out
3. Sell/trade or hold the HC600 in reserve and used an HC2400 alone in the rear as the only BAT used and see how that works out
Swez
T-RAY on 08/31/2008 15:13:50
Think Ima go with the big 2400 and keep my 600 in reserve to see how it works. I feel that is prolly the best idea to run with seeing as my stock batt is pretty big and probably wouldn't leave any room to adding a 2000/2400 by the spare tire.
Didn't think about that before but it sounds like a superb idea! I only hope I can get home after Gustav is done terrorizing the gulf coast! We took are tug from Fourchon,LA and headed for Pensacola ( which is where we are now) and that made for a bumpy ride! But I'm hoping that it wont be so bad we can't get back in to do our crew change... hope we can just stay here cause it's only 45 min's to my house from here vs. a 5 hr ride from there not including the returning traffic!
swez on 09/1/2008 03:19:10
Yes, take some time to consider the options as a H.O. ALT is not easy to find for this application. The ace in the hole would be a Kinetik's 2400 as the only battery used. It has plenty of reserve amperage and this may be compact enough to drop right into the battery cage you have now.
It looks like Gustav is mellowing to a Cat 2 level, but plenty of rain and stiff winds, but little or no storm surge at the moment. Hopefully, this one will pass w/o the major flooding and things can get back to normal in short order. In the meantime, enjoy your time off on the rig.
Swez
T-RAY on 09/3/2008 13:50:15
Well swez... I was gona go with the Kinetic 2400 as you said but sonic was on backorder for those.
So! I've ordered the HC2000 and I am going to run it in paralell with my HC600 as the other option you you said would be good! And just so I'm clear on where everything goes, you said use the HC600 for start up functions and run the 2000 in parallel to the 600 and everything is zen correct?
1 last thing before I end my reply... am I suppose to add another fuse between the kinetics, or just in the power line from the 2000 to the amps?
swez on 09/4/2008 04:00:17
Good backup plan and more amperage available here this way too.
Yes, The 600 & 2000 are wired in parallel. (Pos to Pos, Neg to ground) In this way, both batteries are both the primary start and power buffer to your amplifiers.
As for fusing, the fuse is only between the 2000 and your amps. The fuse rating is based on the max current draw of the amps used and wire gage rating. Like this:
ALT+600+++2000++++(FUSE)+++++Amps A&B
GND------Both BATs---------Amps------- GND to 600 BAT or floor board if the 600 is grounded there too.
The trick is using the proper hardware for a neat, clean install and efficient transfer of power to all links in the chain. You can use a fused Distribution block if you like and a pair of #4 gage lines for the amps. Use ANL type fuses and rated at 100A's per each #4 line.
As for the BAT feed llines, use #2 or 1/0 line between the 2000 & 600 Pos terminals and same for ground on the 2000.
Comments?
Swez
T-RAY on 09/16/2008 09:21:02
Holy frikn cow! Dude! Got erverything hooked up now! Took my stock batt out,dropped the 2000 in its place since it was tthe only place it would mount! Ran the 600 in parallel, put my inline fuse to the amps and it worked awesome for about 1 day!
Now not only do I have power drain issues, my pdx is cutting out from low voltage! It's noy going into protect but its just cutting completely off with power still to it!
Please dear god help me out! The shop I buy my stufff from called his guy for an ALT and that guy said that no one makes one for the dodge/chrysler vehicles right now cuz of the way chrysler redid their alts or sumtn!
swez on 09/16/2008 09:45:53
Me thinks you need to have the ALT charging system checked out under a "Load Test" condition. (What id the ALT full output under load?)
Why? If the ALT has lost 1 or 2 legs, (3 legs in all) of its charging ability, that would cause just what you've mentioned. Once that test is performed and the test is good/bad or other, we need to look at the possibility of deleting the 600 BAT as it may be damaged. (A shorted cell will also do the same thing you mentioned)
Comments after the free tests please. The fact that you had one good day of bass says something has changed. Now we have to figure out what that change was/is.
Swez
PS
1. Test ALT power under full load
2. Test the KC 600 under load for shorts or inadequate charging
3. Test the KC 20000 under load for shorts or inadequate charging
T-RAY on 10/3/2008 10:06:24
Well swez, sorry it took me so long to get back to ya! All charging systems are a go! I was even impressed with the load tests and seemed like it didn't make sense if everything was ok!
My amp cutting out has stopped though after I turned off my system for about 10 miles to top off my big kinetic cause I figured it may of needed a boost charge from just using it before I put my 600 in. But.... there is still major dimmage with my dash, interior, and head lights! Not that I can't deal with the dimmage, I just dont feel its good for my electrical system!
swez on 10/4/2008 04:34:41
Yep, at least we now know your charging system meets specs, but cannot keep up with continous loads this Bass Package demands.
Recall reading some technical info on Kinetik's batteries and they suggested using one of their chargers to top off their batteries. Driving around helps, but these bat's will charge to ~80% under normal conditions.
Their chargers are built to bring the batteries back up to full potential while cycling between high, medium and low charging rates when parked.
FYI: When driving around at low speeds and stop-go conditions, the ALT is charging well below peak rates. Most charging systems deliver full power based on how fast the engine is turning the ALT pully. Most systems charge at full capacity near 2,500 RPM. To get there, you'll be in 2nd or 3rd gear a lot and wasting gas.
Think it over as the Kinetik's charger may be your best bet w/o wasting expensive petrol.
Swez
T-RAY on 10/4/2008 12:57:38
I see... well I guess I should have expected that if I'm pushing out 163.4 db to a decimeter that I would have this problem with a 2000 watt system! Although I figured the Kinetic setup would be superb for this application seeing as in my old setup my 600 held over really well for my one type-X in the Prelude with only a 60 amp alt!
Suppose that its not a daily driver system but I can't help myself! I dont have to turn it up to my 20 notch on my H/U all the time but I LOVE the boom!!! I always wanted a spectacular system but I guess it comes with some minor/major glitches until you can work them out!
So until they come up with a H.O. alt for my application I'll just be topping of my Kinetics before I get close to home!
P.S: Would it have to be a Kinetic charger, or would a regular charger work? Don't wont to skimp on sumthing cheap with a high dollar system, but Im a little strapped for cash!
BTY: My alt is apparently a 160 amp so im still in shock and awe that these amps draw as much as they do! I was definitely I'LL prepared for this setup!
T-RAY on 10/4/2008 13:18:22
Just found this from Kietik! What do ya think swez is it worth it?
http://www.kinetikaudio.com/powersupplies.asp
If so, which one would I need?
T-RAY on 10/4/2008 13:25:18
Just read back through some of the posts you replied to me on and you said something about running a bigger power cable from my alt to my batt! This I did not do!
Do you think that would have anything to do with it?
swez on 10/4/2008 19:02:02
I believe the stock cable is #2 gage and rated for 150A's. (+/- 10%)
Since the battery is located in the back of the vehicle, there's about 16 feet of cable from the ALT to BAT(s). That's not a short cable, but enough to get the job done.
I think your best bet is to research AGM type special charging system needs and then buy a suitable charger for the Kinetik's BAT's you have. A typical 2-10A "trickle charger" found at most autoparts stores for cheap, are not best suited for these BAT's. (They take a long time to Top-off charge a system and can overcharge AGM type batteries too)
Suggest you call/e-mail Kinetiks and tell them what you have and ask what they recommend as the best solution for your rig. Yes, these amplifiers are power hungry.
Alpine's PDX amp series is new and may be a bit more sensitive to low voltage/current situations then the M-1000 amp you have in tandum. The PDX power supply is more efficient than the M-1000, but not as forgiving either.
In a nutshell, you may need to dial back on the HU volume settings for a while before calling it a day and allow the electrical system some time to charge up the K-Bats. As it stands now, you're running the bass engine at "Red-Line" and that cannot be good practice for extended use.
Swez
PS 150dB+ of bass for extended periods of time, are not good for your hearing either. Sooner or later, something will have to give.
Victor on 10/4/2008 20:11:52
You need to isolate both the batteries... seems that they are draining each other out..
This can be done in 2 ways
1- Battery isolator ( diode based )
2- Solenoid ( relay )
An isolator is installed between your front and rear batteries and will allow you to play your system with the car off and only drain your rear battery. When the car is on, it only allows current to flow to the rear battery after the front battery is fully charged. It will not allow you to drain the front battery.
The relay is installed between the front battery and rear battery just like the isolator. But all the relay is is a switch. It separates the front and rear batteries when the car is off. When the car's on the batteries are connected as if there is nothing between them. The relay is used to separate different batteries so as their different internal voltages will not drain each other when the car is off.
An isolated battery dedicated to the audio system is the best way to set up an electrical system, short of installing two alternators (often not an option).
A real battery isolator (diode based) is the way to go. It will allow current to flow from alt to battery 1, and alt to battery 2, but current cannot flow between the two batteries. Diodes have resistance though, and resistance causes voltage loss, usually about 3/4 volt with these isolators. That's not enough to cause any problems though, the batteries will still charge without a hassle.
When using a solenoid/relay, it is installed in-line between the two batteries. The current can always flow from the alt to the front battery. It can flow between the two batteries when the relay is activated. This is not a good setup for a few reasons, one is that a solenoid/relay is not as reliable as a diode based isolator. Other problems can be caused by the fact that current flows between the batteries when the relay is activated, depending on the method used to activate the relay.
A battery isolator (diode based), will allow you to run two batteries and each will not be able to "see" the other, so current is unable to flow between them. Current can flow from alternator to battery 1 and from alt to battery 2, but not back and forth between the batteries. With this type of system, the audio system could completely drain the back battery, and the front battery would remain full (the type of front battery and anything else connected to the cars electrical has no effect on the audio system, and vice versa)
try this before you spend on that expensive charger..
Victor...
PS: In future if you do upgrade to another alternator, or get that charger, or even another front battery, this isolator will do its job just as effectively. Even if isolating the batteries does not solve the dimming issues, it will anyways will prove helpful in securing the stock electricals of your car.
once the isolator is installed, don't pump it up immediately, insure that the batteries are fully charged before you start draining them, and then see if the isolator did make any difference...
T-RAY on 10/4/2008 22:50:27
So about that isolator vic... someone had mentioned this to me before and I was wondering if you could tell me how this would work if your batteries are located in the trunk and not under the hood.
So if Im to buy this isolator which of these would I need?
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/cat_m129_i228_pac-batteries-and-battery-isolators.html
swez on 10/5/2008 00:55:35
That may be an option as Isolators are designed to fill the primary start battery first, then charge the amplifier battery next.
The Solinoid version of this technology is more reliable and does not drop the voltage like diode-based models will. They are rated between 150-300 Amperes, depending on the version used.
Your link shows the Pac 200. It's a solinoid version. This would be a good option. It's a low cost option to consider and worth a try. My only concern, do you drive enough at RPM's above 2000 long enough to charge both batteries? (This means turning off or way down of the Bass Engine in the process)
Finally, I agree with Vic's statement to top off both batteries before you install the Isolator. This will help determine how effective the BI is for your application.
Swez
Victor on 10/5/2008 02:01:42
what you see on the website you noted are not isolators in true sense , they are solenoids...
http://surepower.com/pdf/separatorinterconnect.pdf
These people make some very reliable solenoids and isolators.....
see how they are different...
http://surepower.com/pdf/isolatorguide.pdf
Check the installation instructions
http://www.donrowe.com/battery_isolator/isolator_instructions.pdf
hope that helps......
Victor
swez on 10/5/2008 03:02:27
Good links there Vic! CLAP
This group of links are very good guides to multi-BAT charging systems. These are commonly used in Marine, RV and high powered Mobile Audio applications.
Am sure these diode based system are more expensive as they have several sensors to detect which batteries are topped of and which banks are depleating and need more charging when in use.
Good find,
Swez
T-RAY on 10/5/2008 04:29:02
Anytime i felt my charging system needed topping, I always turn off my audio system and I ride in a lower gear at higher speeds to get that 2000 mark.
So if you guys say that I should try an isolator and ya'll have neer steered me wrong before, then by golly when I get paid I'LL an isolator will be shipped to my house!
It might take me a while to update you guys on the progress as I wont be back home for another 2 weeks and sum change!
!KUDOS!
Victor on 10/5/2008 04:39:58
check this link..
tells you why an isolator is better than a solenoid...
http://surepower.com/pdf/isolator1.pdf
T-RAY on 10/7/2008 10:08:35
OK! Apparently an isolator would not be the solution... just got off the phone a few hours ago with a kinetik techy.
He said ,and I quote, " No! You absolutely do not want to use an isolator for our batteries! From what your telling me" which is everything I said on this post, " you do not have enough power to operate this system!"
He basically said I need to get rid of the HC600 completely and look @ adding another HC2000! Reason being: cars nowa days require alot of amps to run basic functions since they are loaded with electronics! He said the car it's self requires close to a minimum of 1000 watts for electrical power i.e: electronic gauges, sensors, fans etc.
So what I take from all of this is my HC2000 was cut to a 1000 for starter functions and all the power the car requires, and the 600 I added was not enough to do anything (added together is only 1600 which is nowhere close to the 3000 I need) . The reason it worked so well in my old car was that back in 84 they did'nt have 1/4 of the electronics used today so it was ample!
My final quetion to you guys ( Im serious) does this sound like a sells pitch or does it sound like a reasonable solution??THINK
Reason I ask is because its gona be another $350 to aquire another one! Not a cheap solution, but if it works Im out of the dark and into the light!
P.S. He also said should try reversing there postion but in my application I might have to get something custom to hold that mammoth battery above the rear stowage as with two seperate enclosures in there already, this leaves little to no room for it! This will indeed be a pickle!
swez on 10/7/2008 15:29:32
Very interesting and some good insight on Kinetik's AGM batteries.
The tech you spoke to is right about newer cars needing a lot more AUX power for the advanced electronics common in some newer vehicles than in days gone by. If this were in my lap, I'd ask for a 2nd Expert opinion before leaping to another HC2000 battery. (Even if you talked to another Kinetik's Rep and he paints the same picture, you know the right path)
The other side of the equation is the lack of H.O. ALT's for this vehicle. If you could obtain a 250-300 Ampere ALT, the results would be different. Since that is not possible right now, you're left dangling on a thin wire.
The only other option I can see is a dedicated ALT for your dual amplifiers. That's not an easy or cheap fix either.
For now, ask for a 2nd "Expert" opinion and see how they match up.
Swez
Victor on 10/7/2008 16:51:15
If you were to spend $350 ....
spend it on a HO alt rather than another Kinetic battery... If your motor cant pump up enough water at a good rate, then whats the use of having huge storage tanks ?????
when all these tanks conected internally, if you drain water from one, then water from other tanks will flow into the empty tank until it reaches an equal level in all tanks....
think of the isolator as a one way valve, you can pump water into the tank with the motor, it also is connected to the entire water system, but empty tanks will not drain your full tank... you can use different tanks for different purpose, one to store water for bathing, washing, etc.. and the other for drinking...
when you have seperate tanks they will address specific needs , you wont use as much water to drink as you would in bathing, cleaning, washing etc....
if what the kinetic fellow says is right.. then
do this small experiment..
disconnect the 2nd battery and Bass amplifiers.... meaning, we got the entire car electricals plus a moderate powered sound system just running on that small 600 battery....
see what happens.....
am sure, u can already tell whats gonna happen....
it may prove useful to buy a bigger battery, but this time it would last for a few more days before that drains too..... get my point.. a larger pool may last long, but it cant re-fill at the same rate... and it would be a safe bet to get an isolator anyways, to avoid batteries draining themselves mutually....
Comments....
Victor
PS: What are the standard supply - Alt - Batt specs on that car of yours...
as far as i see on this page....
http://www.autogalleryhayward.com/web/1272/vehicle/154329/2006-Dodge-Charger-R/T
the stock alt batt is 160amps + 730cca battery. ( with all the stock electricals + 276wrms music system )
T-RAY on 10/7/2008 23:37:13
Ok. Technically he didn't say it would absolutely work! He actually suggested that I go to the dealer I bought it from and see if they would let me use one to hook up and turn on everything I possibly could to see if that stops the dimmage.
Small problem with that as I ordered it online! hahaha! So do you actually think a dealer would let me use one of these brand new batts in there store if they thought I was going to purchase it?
Vic! I talked to the people at H.O. alts and no one is making a high output alt for my car because of the windings Chrysler has went with. Apparently its not the traditonal type and they went with square wraps or something like that! So they're waiting on someone to come up with a casing for the application before they can produce one!
Swez! My man! The people at H.O. alts actually steered me to a dual alt setup they offer for my car! I believe in the email I recieved roughly a month and 1/2 ago it wass runnning about $450 or close to $500 with installation Im sure!
As vic makes a very good point about the isolator and I thought for sure after I read the links he graciously posted for me, that that would be the ultimate fix! He was not the first to say that as someone from my install shop had suggested the same! Only thing that brings up a flag is what the guy from Kinetik told me!
So, for the equation, I have three possible solutions!
A.) Vic's suggestion for an isolator ( which makes total sense) and probably the cheapest way to go! THINK
B.) Kinetiks suggestion for another HC2000 dedicated to the system! ($350)THINK
C.) Or the dual alt setup for a dedicated alt for the system! ($450-$500)!THINK
One of these solutions actually working ( Priceless)!!!
The main thing I can say is at least I have options and this is not a no fixer!
The owner of my local install shop actually told me ( hope he was joking) to put my amps on ebay and opt for a more efficient amplifier! But I figured even if I did I would have to get a large mono and probably have the same issues as big amps like that would drain the same if not more amps from my electrical system!
One good thing I can take from this when it's all over, when I get another vehicle in the future I will know if I have these issues I know all the possible solutions to approach to fix it myself! CLAP
Victor on 10/7/2008 23:57:53
I would put it this way..
A- Isolator
B- Alt
C- Kick the Kinetik
If the isolator does not work as much as expected. then the only solution will be Alt...
No use having more storage capacity when u cant refill them at the rate you drain....
if you go to a local dealer he may be ok with letting you try another batt..
but hey... a fully charged batt with a higher capacity .. and just a few minutes of audition... well.. it surely will fool you into buying it and later realize that you still have the same problem...
Instead its better to hit the route cause... better power generation and supply, rather than more storage... so Alt is the only way to go after the isolator.. I would completely eliminate the need of another battery for sure...
Dual alt would be equally good, if your stock alt charges the 600batt and newer one charges the 2000batt... two completely stand alone systems.... although you will need an expert electrician and mechanic to do this job...
If these guys have a good reputation for quality job, then $500 for 200amp HO alt + install, is decent deal...
T-RAY on 10/8/2008 10:17:32
I found a website that has a 14 day return policy on isolators (surepower). So toward the end of my hitch i'll order one and update you guys on the results.
Also, I will be calling kinetik again to ask them why they said not to use one to let you guys in on it. I don't see why you wouldn't be able too. He told me once but I forgot exactly what he said about it but if it's nothing major you can bet your bottom dollar i'll be ordering it!
Since I have a 160-amp alt., they recommend a 120-amp isolator. One question I have is is that ample eough to do my bidding or would I need to get the biggest one they offer (160) to supply my big ole bat and wee one?
Check this link for me and see what you guys think!!
http://www.ase-supply.com/product_p/sp-1202.htm
P.S. I am oing to call some shops tommorow to see how much they charge for installing another alt! My cousin said his friend had to sacrifice his compressor to install the other alt! I WILL DO AWAY WITH AN AMP AND SUB IF THATS THE CASE!!! hahaha
Victor on 10/8/2008 17:39:03
where did you find that you need a 120amp isolator if you have a 160amp alt..???
that 120amp you see in the chart below against the 160amp alt , its not the size of the isolator... it is the size of the
Wire / Circuit breaker ( FUSE ) .........
According to me this is what you would need... verify it with the 'sure power' guys.. tell them your precise setup, everything from car model-alt model-battery models-your audio system details.. everything, so they can make a better judgment...
http://www.ase-supply.com/product_p/sp-2002.htm
with that SP-2002, use a 0 gauge wire and 150-160 amp circuit breaker (in-line fuse )
hope this helps...
Victor..
PS: I see no reason why an isolator cannot be used with a kinetik battery until and unless the guy really wants to sell you another kinetik battery.....
ask him reply you with a mail containing technical details of why an isolator cannot be used with those kinetik batteries....?
T-RAY on 10/9/2008 00:38:22
Ahhh... crap! Failure to read directions there Vic! hahaha! I can see now where it blatenly says Wire circuit breaker fuse!
Will give the guys a call at sure power later today and see what they say. As for the kinetik guy, I shall call him and see if he can give me a reply mail containing the contents of why an isolator cannot be used! Then I will post it on here if I deem it a worthy enough reason!
I really appreciate all of the input you guys! Your awesome! SMILE
Victor on 10/9/2008 08:59:20
was going through this entire post again... and felt like repeating a few things with authority....
I noticed this thing
He said ,and I quote, " No! You absolutely do not want to use an isolator for our batteries! From what your telling me" which is everything I said on this post, " you do not have enough power to operate this system!"
If he says you aint got ample power.... ask him... what gives power in a car ??? batteries???
if you simply don't have enough power to operate this system... its even simpler to understand you need more power, and batteries do not generate power, they simply store it... if this is the case you need a bigger alternator...
don't let this guy talk you into buying another kinetik battery....
weather you need or can install an isolator is another question in itself.. but you definitely do not need another battery....
the isolator will be a good safe guard to the power supply system of your car, you may ( will ) need an alternator in near future..
Victor...
PS: take it step by step, the isolator first, then when you can spare some money for the alt, get it upgraded or get a dual alt setup... thats about it...
ask the sure power guys...
when you have 2 alternators and 2 batteries how would you be able to use this isolator as a combiner...??? or do they have a special kind of isolator that can also be used as a combiner....
because once you have 2 alts some time in future, you would definitely not want to let the investment in an isolator go waste....
the best bang for buck would be replacing your present alt with a new HO alt.. but that i guess is a difficult task to source due to vehicle limitations...
I guess, by now you know all you need to do to get your power supply system on the right track...
keep us updated with developments.. it would be nice to document this post for future reference too....
swez on 10/10/2008 11:43:55
May I suggest we look at the Pros and Cons here before doing any more buys?
1. This vehicle has a lot of electrical gadgets that need power when in use
2. Most stock electrical systems allow for ~30/40% more power than the OEM factory design criteria is established
3. You have 2 amps that pull about 2500 watts at full power and the OEM factory syetem can supply roughly 2200 watts at peak power
4. There are no Aftermarket H.O. ALT's that are presently available to feed this stock system and a 2500 watt audio system
5. A battery can store only so many watts in a given period of time before it runs out of gas and needs replentishment time to recover
OK, these are the basics of your situation. But there is more to the whole equation. How to keep the the OEM features powered properly, but also feed your "High Current Draw" amplifiers too?
A proven SPL COMP method is to power the PDX amp off your OEM electricals. Then, to power the other Alpine amp, look at a secondary ALT/BAT to power that as a stand-alone add on. This takes an SPL Comps Pro to deduce and modify the add-on system .
Let that sink in for a little while. Once we have reasonable concenses, then consider the options and cost for the Mods.
Comments?
Swez
PS Ray, you are treading on ground this forum does not often address. We agree that some Professional SPL assistance is a desireable option.
Also, is a few dB more bass SPL worth the cost and effort? THINK
T-RAY on 10/12/2008 09:21:43
Good points there swez, but I'm really looking at not trying to add another alt! Perhaps a bigger batt if it is going to work, or the isolator.THINK
Ofcourse, by the way you put it, I dont think it is but I already have all my gadgets installed and a power issue! I plan to fix that issue no matter what I have to do! PROUD
Whether it be I have to opt for a dual alt setup, isolator, or batt, I dont want to be like... I dont know how to put it other than defeated by an electronic system! I will persevere and come out on top no matter what it takes!GRIN
swez on 10/12/2008 10:42:03
OK... that mindset pretty well sets the stage for an AUX ALT/BAT to feed one or both sub amps. I don't see a cheap fix here if that is the goal.
The primary ALT/BAT will power the car needs. The Aux system will supply all the amplifier needed plus a little extra current for recharging your Kinetik's battery(ies).
What little I know about big SLP rigs, they often use a dedicated ALT and BAT pack for power sucking amplifiers. Here, this means an adapter bracket, a stand alone regulator, a battery kit of probably 2 KC-2000's and fresh power cable wiring. (1/0 gage)
One trick guys often employ, is to change to a smaller diameter pully on the new ALT. This allows the pully to turn faster at low engine RPM and hense more output with low engine RPM.
Try doing some research on this concept with "SPL BASS" type forums and see what tips come up in the process. This forum does not normally address such issues and few here have that specific expertise.
Comments?
Swez
T-RAY on 10/18/2008 03:40:02
Holy bejesus! Called this guy over a week ago... I think about three times, and the final time I called I asked him for his explanation on my issue and what I should do!
I even asked him to send me a reply mail conataining the information he informed me of so I could post his reply on here! Then he asked me to send him an e-mail with my question and setup contents in it!
Did it! Got to the nitty gritty on all the possible solutions in the e-mail and asked if he could reply a.s.a.p! About three days went by since I had last called him and still no email! Now everytime I call he's always away from his desk... I paged him through the building a few times and got nothing!
Not only am I frustrated with my car audio problems, but now I have a person that won't even offer solutions in a simple email, answer his phone or call me back after the 2 messages I left him! For a representitive of Kinetik he's not doing a very good job! Im hangin by a thread over a bottomless pit and he wont even throw me a rope!
swez on 10/18/2008 04:21:59
Try a new contact at Kin... you may have spooked off a kid/guy that is not up to your needs for info and he could be ducking you on purpose.
Consider looking for the Tech Service Mgr., or National Sales Mgr. They are often very busy and hard to get to, but have a lot of product/application knowledge to offer. A few short and concise e-mails would probably get results.
A thought for ya Ray... learn to seek out resources from others who are in the know. Just because this primary contact is falling apart, there are others to tap for the knowledge we seek. Most top players came from the lower ranks and remember their days in the trenches. Have found many folks, "up the ladder" are more than willing and able to guide us along. The hard part is finding them.
Keep pushin'
Swez
PS Yes, you are over a barrel right now. But this will change soon. Are there any SPL shops in your area? If yes, it might be a good resource to drop in, speak to head installer and gets some timely tips on what to do next. If he comes through, flip him a perk of his choosing.
T-RAY on 10/20/2008 02:57:43
Alright! Finally got ahold of the guy at Kinetic again and resent him the email with my issues. Hopefully he will get back to me today!
P.S. He is like "the guy" to talk to!
T-RAY on 10/20/2008 03:04:26
Trae,
The solution that I would highly recommend is to simply replace the HC600 with another HC2000. No need for an isolator at that point. The isolator would actually be a detriment to your current setup. It would only allow the audio system to power itself from the HC600, which obviously is not able to handle that load.
From the horses mouth himself! So do you guys think that I should go with his solution? If so Im only gona order the HC1400 to run my car and move the current 2000 I have to the 600 location after removing it! Does this sound like a winner?
Victor on 10/20/2008 07:54:28
This is what SWEZ wrote at the very beginning of this post...
""""""Going to the larger Kinetik's battery for your sub amps only is highly recommended. The HC2000/2400 will add buffer current to keep your amps well supplied. The HC600 is the primary battery for start and run functions of the car and also helps add additional power to your entire system.""""""""""
This is what you wrote..........
"""""If so Im only gona order the HC1400 to run my car and move the current 2000 I have to the 600 location after removing it! Does this sound like a winner?""""""""
Nah.....! Not when you are paying a handsome amount to win.....
AND this is what the "HORSE" wrote .....
""""""""The isolator would actually be a detriment to your current setup. It would only allow the audio system to power itself from the HC600, which obviously is not able to handle that load.""""""""
Either Dumb Or an Over smart kinetik guy... why cant he think this way ???
why wont the isolator allow the audio system to power itself from the HC 2000 ??? and let the car electronics run on the HC 600 ????
your car electronics along with the HU, line driver and the 4ch amp will not require a bigger battery than the HC 600... and the HC 2000 is enough storage for the 2 amps you have ....
STEP 1: rotate the battery setup.. let the HC 2000 supply to the sub-amplifiers..... other electronics can be connected to the HC 600 as the starter battery...
STEP 2: get an isolator
( this will work to a great extent, take my word, take of it as a Xover in your components, distributing frequencies to each speaker as required, here the isolator distributes power as required, and does not let the batteries drain each other out... )
STEP 3: later an HO alt or dual alt setup... if and when time and budget permits and u really see a need for it....
and again.. i am repeating this...
YOU NEED MORE JUICE .. AND NOT A BIGGER CONTAINER ....
that my final verdict... dont buy that story from the Kinetik guy....PERIOD..!
Victor..
PS: HORSE or A S S ....????? THINK you decide...
T-RAY on 10/20/2008 08:49:59
Very well... I will swap the position of the two batteries. If this does not work... I will go with the isolator, and hopefully that will be as far as I have to take it! The only problem with switching batt. positions is my batts are located in the trunk, rear stowage area, is that there really is no kind of room to put the big batt!
I will have to get something custom done to hold the battery in place and still be able to get to the spare tire if I need it!
Perhaps when I get home I can post some pic's on here and see what you guys suggest I do! Cause the 2 seperate enclosures have no room to move foward and I dont want to place the battery in front of them. Any ideas you guys may already have will be helpful. I will be home thursday and try my best to get some pic's for you guys!
Victor on 10/20/2008 08:55:26
you anyways were going to switch batteries , if you bought the bigger one... right..
then may as well do it now.. i dont see any harm in it...
if it is about space constrains and custom fitments.. well if u cant do it with these batteries how are u going to do it with the newones anyways...??
so take this simple.. dont confuse yourself..
we'd be really happy to help you with this thing..
post some pics, and lets see how things can work out..
just be clear with the line of action we have decided... focus on how to do it.. and dont confuse your self again and again regarding what to do...
thanks... SMILE
Victor...
Victor on 10/20/2008 17:02:53
Keep one thing in mind... once the batteries are swapped.. and the isolator installed... first let the batteries recharge fully before you use them extensively...
Victor...
T-RAY on 10/20/2008 23:34:04
I suppose I should hook then up to a charger then! Just to assure a full and thourough charge! It wasn't really confusing, just three people telling me three different things, and said in one of my other replys that I would have to get something custom if I was going to order another one of those monster's!
But, I really appreciate all of your help and insight Vic! Don't know what I would do when I got home and wasn't this informed! I might have even sold my amps to get a more efficient one like my local shop owner said hahahaha!!!
swez on 10/22/2008 11:54:13
Just to add a thought, as I understand Bat Iso's, they monitor each battery charge level overtime. As the primary start/run Bat is charged to full capacity, a good Iso monitors the other battery in the loop for state of charge.
If one BAT is dropping faster than the other in the circuit, the Iso detects that drop and switches over to the BAT that needs the charging and does so automatically. (A flip-flop kind of arrangement)
The main issue I see is what Vic mentioned. Can the charging system keep up with both BAT needs under extreme conditions? The ALT is liken to a pump. The BAT(s) are liken to storage containers. The Iso has to be smart enough to read both and fill the one that is in need of more juice.
Finally, when we look to any vendor, they will claim their products are superior to others on the market. (They are "brain-washed" to do so, no matter what)
In your specific case, the ideal is a 2 ALT charging system. One to manage the primary car functions. The other is to supply adequate current to power 2 strong sub amps. If your added a full-range amp later to keep up with the bass, this becomes a multi-ALT/BAT scenario.
Comments welcome!
Swez
PS I have no doubt that KIN has great products. However, keeping them up to snuff in your application is tricky and expensive. THINK it over a bit before you respond Okay?
T-RAY on 11/17/2008 15:33:11
Well well! No more problems with dimmage or amp cutting!GRIN And the answer... large CAPACITOR! My step-dad happened to have a 40 farad cap ( don't know where he got it! ) but persuaded me to try it before I spent any money on anything else! Needless to say I removed my HC600 and replaced it with the capacitor.... FLAWLESS! GRIN
I apologize for not sending you guys pictures of my setup but it seems someone had dropped and broken my digital camera! Now I have to buy another one of those MAD!!! However, since I got my raise as of recent, it should not be a problem! No one seems to know who or what happened to my camera though! THINK How mysterious!!!!
Unfortunately he said I have to get my own because his was not for sale! Now Im on the hunt for a good, reliable cap and I can't remember what his was! When Im finished I will be happy to post an update on my success!
swez on 11/18/2008 11:09:06
Really... a 40 Farad Cap?
It makes sense that this would work, but the cost of one in this range could be a real budget breaker too. Where'd he get one in that range???
Swez
T-RAY on 11/18/2008 15:39:16
Like I said, I dont know where he got it from but it works better than I would have thought! I have been looking on the web and you are right about the budget braking on that size a capacitor!
I've seen them from $400 to $700 dollars! However, my good people at sonicelectronix have them really cheap! They offer a 50 farad Absolute capacitor for only $149.99! Have never heard of that brand so I dont think I'll be buying one of those, and there are no reviews on it!
The thing is, according to sonic, I do not need a 40 farad cap! Their formula is 1 farad for every 500 watts rms! Meaning I would only need a 4-5 farad cap! But I was thinking, if the big one worked so well, would I need to just buy a 10+, or go by the formula that says I only need a 4-5 farad cap?
And one more off the top question... I have a 2006 Dodge Charger R/T and when I just had one hooked up there was some dimmage with my lights. Now that there are 2 of em hooked up there is a serious dimmage with every light and even my H/U dvd screen! I have a Kinetic HC600 batt. but was wondering if i may need 2 to stop the power drainage? I haven't hooked the battery up yet!
Replies (53)
swez on 08/25/2008 00:51:42
Yep, you have a problem on your hands all right with power management issues and 2 large amps. If the Charger is like the Dodge Magnum, they offer a 130-140A ALT under the hood and the battery is in the rear stowage area?
You may indeed need 2 Kinetic batteries in parallel to limit the light dimming issues. The other side of the equation would be to upgrade
to a H.O. ALT that can deliver 250-300 A's of current as well. That won't be cheap either. (The pair of amps will draw close to 175 A's of current at full power alone) Egads!
To match outputs from each amp, you'll need a Digital Multimeter, (DMM) to measure speaker voltage to each sub. Test tones work best here and we adjust each amp gain setting until both subs are getting the same voltage readings. Target voltage at full power will be 44.7 Volts AC per sub. (Figure about $20.00 for a good DMM)
Got all that?
Swez
T-RAY on 08/25/2008 04:11:22
Kudos there Swez! My step dad has all kinds of electronic gadgets and I'm sure he'll be more than happy to help me out with it! As far as the pricing goes, I got my first kinetic off my cousin and a line driver for 100 bucks! So I know they are not cheap (I believe about 200 bucks for the HC600?)
What does that high output alt run about? Im guessing anywhere from 200 to about 400 bucks? And you are correct about the stowage area batt and ampere of the alt!
swez on 08/25/2008 05:20:34
The HC600 is fine for starter functions but will be very inadequate for powering amps of this magnitude. Kinetik's calculator recommends the HC2000/HC2400 for a 2000+ watt amping system. It's not cheap, but if you shop around, it may be a lot cheaper than a H.O. ALT. (130-140 A's is pretty strong already and the H.O. BAT should help a lot w/ the light dimming) Just shut off the bass a while and let the charging system top off the batteries.
http://www.kinetikaudio.com/hc2000.asp
http://www.kinetikaudio.com/faq.asp (Good FAQ to read)
Helped another CK'er on his 06 Magnum and getting a H.O. ALT for that location is not easy or cheap. So, he opted for a larger BAT and this is fed from the ALT ~ #2 gage cable. (#2 cable is rated at 200 A's or so. When hitting the heavy bass, feel the cable jacket for excessive heating. If it gets soft or begins to melt... shut er down IMMEDIATELY!
You'll have to remove that cable and install 1/0 wiring in its place. (+300 A current rated) Not an easy task either.
Swez
T-RAY on 08/25/2008 16:00:11
So it would prolly be best to go with the big kinetic huh?
Since my battery is already located in the trunk, would it be ok to just run that kinetic strait to the main batt.? Or would I need to do like you said and feed a #2 cable from the alt to the kinetic?
Also... instead of running a #2 from the start would it be ok to just go ahead and up to the 1/0?THINK
swez on 08/26/2008 02:53:40
Going to the larger Kinetik's battery for your sub amps only is highly recommended. The HC2000/2400 will add buffer current to keep your amps well supplied. The HC600 is the primary battery for start and run functions of the car and also helps add additional power to your entire system.
As for wiring, I think it would be wise to insert a 200A ANL type inline fuse between your HC Bats and the amplifiers. (HC2000 or HC2400) If the fuse blows, the amps will shut off, but your car will still run properly and continue to charge both batteries. Doing this will protect your HC Bats, stock wiring and good for your amps too. Like this:
ALT++++++HC600++++HC2000+++++(FUSE)+++++Amps A&B
GND----------HC600------------------------HC2000--------Amp GND to chassis
See how that works?
Swez
T-RAY on 08/26/2008 14:59:37
Right now I don't have the 600 hooked up @ all. I only have the stock batt. supplying all the power. And instead of my amps being grounded to the chasis I just ran them back to the main batt.
Plus being as everything but the alt. is located in the trunk, I figured that I just could jump a power from the main battery to the HC as well as the ground. I currently am using a 150A ANL fuse from my main battery to the power dist. block. This is my current setup:
ALT++++++Main Bat+++++++FUSE+++++Amps A&B
GND----------Main Bat---------Amp GND to Main Bat
Sort of like a closed loop system. I figured since the batt was there couldn't hurt to GND everything on it. And I thought adding my current HC to the equasion along with another would solve the problem. But if you say (or the kinetic calc) I should have at least the HC2000 then I will just go ahead with the prchase and hook it all up when I get back home. Cause I've exhausted myself with looking for a HO alt for my car!!!
swez on 08/26/2008 16:22:47
The combination of the HC600 & the HC2000 and fused as mentioned would be great. If you elected to go for only one battery in the rear, consider the HC2400 and amps fused at 150-200A's.
I see your point on grounds and that should be OK. Whatever seems best in ease of install is good as long as the fuse is the proper value and #4 wires to each amp will be short.
As for the H.O. Alternator for this car, it is indeed like looking for "hen's teeth". (Pretty hard to find as hen's do not have teeth) LOL
Keep plugging away,
Swez
T-RAY on 08/27/2008 12:32:28
So just adding the HC2000 with the stock batt wouldn't sufice?
I believe my #4s to my amps are only about 3 ft apiece, but my GND's are pretty long! I had asked an installer at the shop where I purchased my goods about just grounding everything to the main batt and he said that it would be fine even though they would be over 5 ft because it was going back to my main power source.
Now one thing I'm stuck on is the HC in the trunk. Are you saying to do away with the main batt and just use HC's? And if so, wouldn't it be ok to just add the 2000/2400 to the main batt????
swez on 08/28/2008 09:53:19
There are several options if you wish: (All Kinetcik's BAT's would be best)
1. Use the HC600 as your starter BAT.
2. Add an HC2000 in parallel to your HC600 and see how that works out
3. Sell/trade or hold the HC600 in reserve and used an HC2400 alone in the rear as the only BAT used and see how that works out
Swez
T-RAY on 08/31/2008 15:13:50
Think Ima go with the big 2400 and keep my 600 in reserve to see how it works. I feel that is prolly the best idea to run with seeing as my stock batt is pretty big and probably wouldn't leave any room to adding a 2000/2400 by the spare tire.
Didn't think about that before but it sounds like a superb idea! I only hope I can get home after Gustav is done terrorizing the gulf coast! We took are tug from Fourchon,LA and headed for Pensacola ( which is where we are now) and that made for a bumpy ride! But I'm hoping that it wont be so bad we can't get back in to do our crew change... hope we can just stay here cause it's only 45 min's to my house from here vs. a 5 hr ride from there not including the returning traffic!
swez on 09/1/2008 03:19:10
Yes, take some time to consider the options as a H.O. ALT is not easy to find for this application. The ace in the hole would be a Kinetik's 2400 as the only battery used. It has plenty of reserve amperage and this may be compact enough to drop right into the battery cage you have now.
It looks like Gustav is mellowing to a Cat 2 level, but plenty of rain and stiff winds, but little or no storm surge at the moment. Hopefully, this one will pass w/o the major flooding and things can get back to normal in short order. In the meantime, enjoy your time off on the rig.
Swez
T-RAY on 09/3/2008 13:50:15
Well swez... I was gona go with the Kinetic 2400 as you said but sonic was on backorder for those.
So! I've ordered the HC2000 and I am going to run it in paralell with my HC600 as the other option you you said would be good! And just so I'm clear on where everything goes, you said use the HC600 for start up functions and run the 2000 in parallel to the 600 and everything is zen correct?
1 last thing before I end my reply... am I suppose to add another fuse between the kinetics, or just in the power line from the 2000 to the amps?
swez on 09/4/2008 04:00:17
Good backup plan and more amperage available here this way too.
Yes, The 600 & 2000 are wired in parallel. (Pos to Pos, Neg to ground) In this way, both batteries are both the primary start and power buffer to your amplifiers.
As for fusing, the fuse is only between the 2000 and your amps. The fuse rating is based on the max current draw of the amps used and wire gage rating. Like this:
ALT+600+++2000++++(FUSE)+++++Amps A&B
GND------Both BATs---------Amps------- GND to 600 BAT or floor board if the 600 is grounded there too.
The trick is using the proper hardware for a neat, clean install and efficient transfer of power to all links in the chain. You can use a fused Distribution block if you like and a pair of #4 gage lines for the amps. Use ANL type fuses and rated at 100A's per each #4 line.
As for the BAT feed llines, use #2 or 1/0 line between the 2000 & 600 Pos terminals and same for ground on the 2000.
Comments?
Swez
T-RAY on 09/16/2008 09:21:02
Holy frikn cow! Dude! Got erverything hooked up now! Took my stock batt out,dropped the 2000 in its place since it was tthe only place it would mount! Ran the 600 in parallel, put my inline fuse to the amps and it worked awesome for about 1 day!
Now not only do I have power drain issues, my pdx is cutting out from low voltage! It's noy going into protect but its just cutting completely off with power still to it!
Please dear god help me out! The shop I buy my stufff from called his guy for an ALT and that guy said that no one makes one for the dodge/chrysler vehicles right now cuz of the way chrysler redid their alts or sumtn!
swez on 09/16/2008 09:45:53
Me thinks you need to have the ALT charging system checked out under a "Load Test" condition. (What id the ALT full output under load?)
Why? If the ALT has lost 1 or 2 legs, (3 legs in all) of its charging ability, that would cause just what you've mentioned. Once that test is performed and the test is good/bad or other, we need to look at the possibility of deleting the 600 BAT as it may be damaged. (A shorted cell will also do the same thing you mentioned)
Comments after the free tests please. The fact that you had one good day of bass says something has changed. Now we have to figure out what that change was/is.
Swez
PS
1. Test ALT power under full load
2. Test the KC 600 under load for shorts or inadequate charging
3. Test the KC 20000 under load for shorts or inadequate charging
T-RAY on 10/3/2008 10:06:24
Well swez, sorry it took me so long to get back to ya! All charging systems are a go! I was even impressed with the load tests and seemed like it didn't make sense if everything was ok!
My amp cutting out has stopped though after I turned off my system for about 10 miles to top off my big kinetic cause I figured it may of needed a boost charge from just using it before I put my 600 in. But.... there is still major dimmage with my dash, interior, and head lights! Not that I can't deal with the dimmage, I just dont feel its good for my electrical system!
swez on 10/4/2008 04:34:41
Yep, at least we now know your charging system meets specs, but cannot keep up with continous loads this Bass Package demands.
Recall reading some technical info on Kinetik's batteries and they suggested using one of their chargers to top off their batteries. Driving around helps, but these bat's will charge to ~80% under normal conditions.
Their chargers are built to bring the batteries back up to full potential while cycling between high, medium and low charging rates when parked.
FYI: When driving around at low speeds and stop-go conditions, the ALT is charging well below peak rates. Most charging systems deliver full power based on how fast the engine is turning the ALT pully. Most systems charge at full capacity near 2,500 RPM. To get there, you'll be in 2nd or 3rd gear a lot and wasting gas.
Think it over as the Kinetik's charger may be your best bet w/o wasting expensive petrol.
Swez
T-RAY on 10/4/2008 12:57:38
I see... well I guess I should have expected that if I'm pushing out 163.4 db to a decimeter that I would have this problem with a 2000 watt system! Although I figured the Kinetic setup would be superb for this application seeing as in my old setup my 600 held over really well for my one type-X in the Prelude with only a 60 amp alt!
Suppose that its not a daily driver system but I can't help myself! I dont have to turn it up to my 20 notch on my H/U all the time but I LOVE the boom!!! I always wanted a spectacular system but I guess it comes with some minor/major glitches until you can work them out!
So until they come up with a H.O. alt for my application I'll just be topping of my Kinetics before I get close to home!
P.S: Would it have to be a Kinetic charger, or would a regular charger work? Don't wont to skimp on sumthing cheap with a high dollar system, but Im a little strapped for cash!
BTY: My alt is apparently a 160 amp so im still in shock and awe that these amps draw as much as they do! I was definitely I'LL prepared for this setup!
T-RAY on 10/4/2008 13:18:22
Just found this from Kietik! What do ya think swez is it worth it?
http://www.kinetikaudio.com/powersupplies.asp
If so, which one would I need?
T-RAY on 10/4/2008 13:25:18
Just read back through some of the posts you replied to me on and you said something about running a bigger power cable from my alt to my batt! This I did not do!
Do you think that would have anything to do with it?
swez on 10/4/2008 19:02:02
I believe the stock cable is #2 gage and rated for 150A's. (+/- 10%)
Since the battery is located in the back of the vehicle, there's about 16 feet of cable from the ALT to BAT(s). That's not a short cable, but enough to get the job done.
I think your best bet is to research AGM type special charging system needs and then buy a suitable charger for the Kinetik's BAT's you have. A typical 2-10A "trickle charger" found at most autoparts stores for cheap, are not best suited for these BAT's. (They take a long time to Top-off charge a system and can overcharge AGM type batteries too)
Suggest you call/e-mail Kinetiks and tell them what you have and ask what they recommend as the best solution for your rig. Yes, these amplifiers are power hungry.
Alpine's PDX amp series is new and may be a bit more sensitive to low voltage/current situations then the M-1000 amp you have in tandum. The PDX power supply is more efficient than the M-1000, but not as forgiving either.
In a nutshell, you may need to dial back on the HU volume settings for a while before calling it a day and allow the electrical system some time to charge up the K-Bats. As it stands now, you're running the bass engine at "Red-Line" and that cannot be good practice for extended use.
Swez
PS 150dB+ of bass for extended periods of time, are not good for your hearing either. Sooner or later, something will have to give.
Victor on 10/4/2008 20:11:52
You need to isolate both the batteries... seems that they are draining each other out..
This can be done in 2 ways
1- Battery isolator ( diode based )
2- Solenoid ( relay )
An isolator is installed between your front and rear batteries and will allow you to play your system with the car off and only drain your rear battery. When the car is on, it only allows current to flow to the rear battery after the front battery is fully charged. It will not allow you to drain the front battery.
The relay is installed between the front battery and rear battery just like the isolator. But all the relay is is a switch. It separates the front and rear batteries when the car is off. When the car's on the batteries are connected as if there is nothing between them. The relay is used to separate different batteries so as their different internal voltages will not drain each other when the car is off.
An isolated battery dedicated to the audio system is the best way to set up an electrical system, short of installing two alternators (often not an option).
A real battery isolator (diode based) is the way to go. It will allow current to flow from alt to battery 1, and alt to battery 2, but current cannot flow between the two batteries. Diodes have resistance though, and resistance causes voltage loss, usually about 3/4 volt with these isolators. That's not enough to cause any problems though, the batteries will still charge without a hassle.
When using a solenoid/relay, it is installed in-line between the two batteries. The current can always flow from the alt to the front battery. It can flow between the two batteries when the relay is activated. This is not a good setup for a few reasons, one is that a solenoid/relay is not as reliable as a diode based isolator. Other problems can be caused by the fact that current flows between the batteries when the relay is activated, depending on the method used to activate the relay.
A battery isolator (diode based), will allow you to run two batteries and each will not be able to "see" the other, so current is unable to flow between them. Current can flow from alternator to battery 1 and from alt to battery 2, but not back and forth between the batteries. With this type of system, the audio system could completely drain the back battery, and the front battery would remain full (the type of front battery and anything else connected to the cars electrical has no effect on the audio system, and vice versa)
try this before you spend on that expensive charger..
Victor...
PS: In future if you do upgrade to another alternator, or get that charger, or even another front battery, this isolator will do its job just as effectively. Even if isolating the batteries does not solve the dimming issues, it will anyways will prove helpful in securing the stock electricals of your car.
once the isolator is installed, don't pump it up immediately, insure that the batteries are fully charged before you start draining them, and then see if the isolator did make any difference...
T-RAY on 10/4/2008 22:50:27
So about that isolator vic... someone had mentioned this to me before and I was wondering if you could tell me how this would work if your batteries are located in the trunk and not under the hood.
So if Im to buy this isolator which of these would I need?
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/cat_m129_i228_pac-batteries-and-battery-isolators.html
swez on 10/5/2008 00:55:35
That may be an option as Isolators are designed to fill the primary start battery first, then charge the amplifier battery next.
The Solinoid version of this technology is more reliable and does not drop the voltage like diode-based models will. They are rated between 150-300 Amperes, depending on the version used.
Your link shows the Pac 200. It's a solinoid version. This would be a good option. It's a low cost option to consider and worth a try. My only concern, do you drive enough at RPM's above 2000 long enough to charge both batteries? (This means turning off or way down of the Bass Engine in the process)
Finally, I agree with Vic's statement to top off both batteries before you install the Isolator. This will help determine how effective the BI is for your application.
Swez
Victor on 10/5/2008 02:01:42
what you see on the website you noted are not isolators in true sense , they are solenoids...
http://surepower.com/pdf/separatorinterconnect.pdf
These people make some very reliable solenoids and isolators.....
see how they are different...
http://surepower.com/pdf/isolatorguide.pdf
Check the installation instructions
http://www.donrowe.com/battery_isolator/isolator_instructions.pdf
hope that helps......
Victor
swez on 10/5/2008 03:02:27
Good links there Vic! CLAP
This group of links are very good guides to multi-BAT charging systems. These are commonly used in Marine, RV and high powered Mobile Audio applications.
Am sure these diode based system are more expensive as they have several sensors to detect which batteries are topped of and which banks are depleating and need more charging when in use.
Good find,
Swez
T-RAY on 10/5/2008 04:29:02
Anytime i felt my charging system needed topping, I always turn off my audio system and I ride in a lower gear at higher speeds to get that 2000 mark.
So if you guys say that I should try an isolator and ya'll have neer steered me wrong before, then by golly when I get paid I'LL an isolator will be shipped to my house!
It might take me a while to update you guys on the progress as I wont be back home for another 2 weeks and sum change!
!KUDOS!
Victor on 10/5/2008 04:39:58
check this link..
tells you why an isolator is better than a solenoid...
http://surepower.com/pdf/isolator1.pdf
T-RAY on 10/7/2008 10:08:35
OK! Apparently an isolator would not be the solution... just got off the phone a few hours ago with a kinetik techy.
He said ,and I quote, " No! You absolutely do not want to use an isolator for our batteries! From what your telling me" which is everything I said on this post, " you do not have enough power to operate this system!"
He basically said I need to get rid of the HC600 completely and look @ adding another HC2000! Reason being: cars nowa days require alot of amps to run basic functions since they are loaded with electronics! He said the car it's self requires close to a minimum of 1000 watts for electrical power i.e: electronic gauges, sensors, fans etc.
So what I take from all of this is my HC2000 was cut to a 1000 for starter functions and all the power the car requires, and the 600 I added was not enough to do anything (added together is only 1600 which is nowhere close to the 3000 I need) . The reason it worked so well in my old car was that back in 84 they did'nt have 1/4 of the electronics used today so it was ample!
My final quetion to you guys ( Im serious) does this sound like a sells pitch or does it sound like a reasonable solution??THINK
Reason I ask is because its gona be another $350 to aquire another one! Not a cheap solution, but if it works Im out of the dark and into the light!
P.S. He also said should try reversing there postion but in my application I might have to get something custom to hold that mammoth battery above the rear stowage as with two seperate enclosures in there already, this leaves little to no room for it! This will indeed be a pickle!
swez on 10/7/2008 15:29:32
Very interesting and some good insight on Kinetik's AGM batteries.
The tech you spoke to is right about newer cars needing a lot more AUX power for the advanced electronics common in some newer vehicles than in days gone by. If this were in my lap, I'd ask for a 2nd Expert opinion before leaping to another HC2000 battery. (Even if you talked to another Kinetik's Rep and he paints the same picture, you know the right path)
The other side of the equation is the lack of H.O. ALT's for this vehicle. If you could obtain a 250-300 Ampere ALT, the results would be different. Since that is not possible right now, you're left dangling on a thin wire.
The only other option I can see is a dedicated ALT for your dual amplifiers. That's not an easy or cheap fix either.
For now, ask for a 2nd "Expert" opinion and see how they match up.
Swez
Victor on 10/7/2008 16:51:15
If you were to spend $350 ....
spend it on a HO alt rather than another Kinetic battery... If your motor cant pump up enough water at a good rate, then whats the use of having huge storage tanks ?????
when all these tanks conected internally, if you drain water from one, then water from other tanks will flow into the empty tank until it reaches an equal level in all tanks....
think of the isolator as a one way valve, you can pump water into the tank with the motor, it also is connected to the entire water system, but empty tanks will not drain your full tank... you can use different tanks for different purpose, one to store water for bathing, washing, etc.. and the other for drinking...
when you have seperate tanks they will address specific needs , you wont use as much water to drink as you would in bathing, cleaning, washing etc....
if what the kinetic fellow says is right.. then
do this small experiment..
disconnect the 2nd battery and Bass amplifiers.... meaning, we got the entire car electricals plus a moderate powered sound system just running on that small 600 battery....
see what happens.....
am sure, u can already tell whats gonna happen....
it may prove useful to buy a bigger battery, but this time it would last for a few more days before that drains too..... get my point.. a larger pool may last long, but it cant re-fill at the same rate... and it would be a safe bet to get an isolator anyways, to avoid batteries draining themselves mutually....
Comments....
Victor
PS: What are the standard supply - Alt - Batt specs on that car of yours...
as far as i see on this page....
http://www.autogalleryhayward.com/web/1272/vehicle/154329/2006-Dodge-Charger-R/T
the stock alt batt is 160amps + 730cca battery. ( with all the stock electricals + 276wrms music system )
T-RAY on 10/7/2008 23:37:13
Ok. Technically he didn't say it would absolutely work! He actually suggested that I go to the dealer I bought it from and see if they would let me use one to hook up and turn on everything I possibly could to see if that stops the dimmage.
Small problem with that as I ordered it online! hahaha! So do you actually think a dealer would let me use one of these brand new batts in there store if they thought I was going to purchase it?
Vic! I talked to the people at H.O. alts and no one is making a high output alt for my car because of the windings Chrysler has went with. Apparently its not the traditonal type and they went with square wraps or something like that! So they're waiting on someone to come up with a casing for the application before they can produce one!
Swez! My man! The people at H.O. alts actually steered me to a dual alt setup they offer for my car! I believe in the email I recieved roughly a month and 1/2 ago it wass runnning about $450 or close to $500 with installation Im sure!
As vic makes a very good point about the isolator and I thought for sure after I read the links he graciously posted for me, that that would be the ultimate fix! He was not the first to say that as someone from my install shop had suggested the same! Only thing that brings up a flag is what the guy from Kinetik told me!
So, for the equation, I have three possible solutions!
A.) Vic's suggestion for an isolator ( which makes total sense) and probably the cheapest way to go! THINK
B.) Kinetiks suggestion for another HC2000 dedicated to the system! ($350)THINK
C.) Or the dual alt setup for a dedicated alt for the system! ($450-$500)!THINK
One of these solutions actually working ( Priceless)!!!
The main thing I can say is at least I have options and this is not a no fixer!
The owner of my local install shop actually told me ( hope he was joking) to put my amps on ebay and opt for a more efficient amplifier! But I figured even if I did I would have to get a large mono and probably have the same issues as big amps like that would drain the same if not more amps from my electrical system!
One good thing I can take from this when it's all over, when I get another vehicle in the future I will know if I have these issues I know all the possible solutions to approach to fix it myself! CLAP
Victor on 10/7/2008 23:57:53
I would put it this way..
A- Isolator
B- Alt
C- Kick the Kinetik
If the isolator does not work as much as expected. then the only solution will be Alt...
No use having more storage capacity when u cant refill them at the rate you drain....
if you go to a local dealer he may be ok with letting you try another batt..
but hey... a fully charged batt with a higher capacity .. and just a few minutes of audition... well.. it surely will fool you into buying it and later realize that you still have the same problem...
Instead its better to hit the route cause... better power generation and supply, rather than more storage... so Alt is the only way to go after the isolator.. I would completely eliminate the need of another battery for sure...
Dual alt would be equally good, if your stock alt charges the 600batt and newer one charges the 2000batt... two completely stand alone systems.... although you will need an expert electrician and mechanic to do this job...
If these guys have a good reputation for quality job, then $500 for 200amp HO alt + install, is decent deal...
T-RAY on 10/8/2008 10:17:32
I found a website that has a 14 day return policy on isolators (surepower). So toward the end of my hitch i'll order one and update you guys on the results.
Also, I will be calling kinetik again to ask them why they said not to use one to let you guys in on it. I don't see why you wouldn't be able too. He told me once but I forgot exactly what he said about it but if it's nothing major you can bet your bottom dollar i'll be ordering it!
Since I have a 160-amp alt., they recommend a 120-amp isolator. One question I have is is that ample eough to do my bidding or would I need to get the biggest one they offer (160) to supply my big ole bat and wee one?
Check this link for me and see what you guys think!!
http://www.ase-supply.com/product_p/sp-1202.htm
P.S. I am oing to call some shops tommorow to see how much they charge for installing another alt! My cousin said his friend had to sacrifice his compressor to install the other alt! I WILL DO AWAY WITH AN AMP AND SUB IF THATS THE CASE!!! hahaha
Victor on 10/8/2008 17:39:03
where did you find that you need a 120amp isolator if you have a 160amp alt..???
that 120amp you see in the chart below against the 160amp alt , its not the size of the isolator... it is the size of the
Wire / Circuit breaker ( FUSE ) .........
According to me this is what you would need... verify it with the 'sure power' guys.. tell them your precise setup, everything from car model-alt model-battery models-your audio system details.. everything, so they can make a better judgment...
http://www.ase-supply.com/product_p/sp-2002.htm
with that SP-2002, use a 0 gauge wire and 150-160 amp circuit breaker (in-line fuse )
hope this helps...
Victor..
PS: I see no reason why an isolator cannot be used with a kinetik battery until and unless the guy really wants to sell you another kinetik battery.....
ask him reply you with a mail containing technical details of why an isolator cannot be used with those kinetik batteries....?
T-RAY on 10/9/2008 00:38:22
Ahhh... crap! Failure to read directions there Vic! hahaha! I can see now where it blatenly says Wire circuit breaker fuse!
Will give the guys a call at sure power later today and see what they say. As for the kinetik guy, I shall call him and see if he can give me a reply mail containing the contents of why an isolator cannot be used! Then I will post it on here if I deem it a worthy enough reason!
I really appreciate all of the input you guys! Your awesome! SMILE
Victor on 10/9/2008 08:59:20
was going through this entire post again... and felt like repeating a few things with authority....
I noticed this thing
He said ,and I quote, " No! You absolutely do not want to use an isolator for our batteries! From what your telling me" which is everything I said on this post, " you do not have enough power to operate this system!"
If he says you aint got ample power.... ask him... what gives power in a car ??? batteries???
if you simply don't have enough power to operate this system... its even simpler to understand you need more power, and batteries do not generate power, they simply store it... if this is the case you need a bigger alternator...
don't let this guy talk you into buying another kinetik battery....
weather you need or can install an isolator is another question in itself.. but you definitely do not need another battery....
the isolator will be a good safe guard to the power supply system of your car, you may ( will ) need an alternator in near future..
Victor...
PS: take it step by step, the isolator first, then when you can spare some money for the alt, get it upgraded or get a dual alt setup... thats about it...
ask the sure power guys...
when you have 2 alternators and 2 batteries how would you be able to use this isolator as a combiner...??? or do they have a special kind of isolator that can also be used as a combiner....
because once you have 2 alts some time in future, you would definitely not want to let the investment in an isolator go waste....
the best bang for buck would be replacing your present alt with a new HO alt.. but that i guess is a difficult task to source due to vehicle limitations...
I guess, by now you know all you need to do to get your power supply system on the right track...
keep us updated with developments.. it would be nice to document this post for future reference too....
swez on 10/10/2008 11:43:55
May I suggest we look at the Pros and Cons here before doing any more buys?
1. This vehicle has a lot of electrical gadgets that need power when in use
2. Most stock electrical systems allow for ~30/40% more power than the OEM factory design criteria is established
3. You have 2 amps that pull about 2500 watts at full power and the OEM factory syetem can supply roughly 2200 watts at peak power
4. There are no Aftermarket H.O. ALT's that are presently available to feed this stock system and a 2500 watt audio system
5. A battery can store only so many watts in a given period of time before it runs out of gas and needs replentishment time to recover
OK, these are the basics of your situation. But there is more to the whole equation. How to keep the the OEM features powered properly, but also feed your "High Current Draw" amplifiers too?
A proven SPL COMP method is to power the PDX amp off your OEM electricals. Then, to power the other Alpine amp, look at a secondary ALT/BAT to power that as a stand-alone add on. This takes an SPL Comps Pro to deduce and modify the add-on system .
Let that sink in for a little while. Once we have reasonable concenses, then consider the options and cost for the Mods.
Comments?
Swez
PS Ray, you are treading on ground this forum does not often address. We agree that some Professional SPL assistance is a desireable option.
Also, is a few dB more bass SPL worth the cost and effort? THINK
T-RAY on 10/12/2008 09:21:43
Good points there swez, but I'm really looking at not trying to add another alt! Perhaps a bigger batt if it is going to work, or the isolator.THINK
Ofcourse, by the way you put it, I dont think it is but I already have all my gadgets installed and a power issue! I plan to fix that issue no matter what I have to do! PROUD
Whether it be I have to opt for a dual alt setup, isolator, or batt, I dont want to be like... I dont know how to put it other than defeated by an electronic system! I will persevere and come out on top no matter what it takes!GRIN
swez on 10/12/2008 10:42:03
OK... that mindset pretty well sets the stage for an AUX ALT/BAT to feed one or both sub amps. I don't see a cheap fix here if that is the goal.
The primary ALT/BAT will power the car needs. The Aux system will supply all the amplifier needed plus a little extra current for recharging your Kinetik's battery(ies).
What little I know about big SLP rigs, they often use a dedicated ALT and BAT pack for power sucking amplifiers. Here, this means an adapter bracket, a stand alone regulator, a battery kit of probably 2 KC-2000's and fresh power cable wiring. (1/0 gage)
One trick guys often employ, is to change to a smaller diameter pully on the new ALT. This allows the pully to turn faster at low engine RPM and hense more output with low engine RPM.
Try doing some research on this concept with "SPL BASS" type forums and see what tips come up in the process. This forum does not normally address such issues and few here have that specific expertise.
Comments?
Swez
T-RAY on 10/18/2008 03:40:02
Holy bejesus! Called this guy over a week ago... I think about three times, and the final time I called I asked him for his explanation on my issue and what I should do!
I even asked him to send me a reply mail conataining the information he informed me of so I could post his reply on here! Then he asked me to send him an e-mail with my question and setup contents in it!
Did it! Got to the nitty gritty on all the possible solutions in the e-mail and asked if he could reply a.s.a.p! About three days went by since I had last called him and still no email! Now everytime I call he's always away from his desk... I paged him through the building a few times and got nothing!
Not only am I frustrated with my car audio problems, but now I have a person that won't even offer solutions in a simple email, answer his phone or call me back after the 2 messages I left him! For a representitive of Kinetik he's not doing a very good job! Im hangin by a thread over a bottomless pit and he wont even throw me a rope!
swez on 10/18/2008 04:21:59
Try a new contact at Kin... you may have spooked off a kid/guy that is not up to your needs for info and he could be ducking you on purpose.
Consider looking for the Tech Service Mgr., or National Sales Mgr. They are often very busy and hard to get to, but have a lot of product/application knowledge to offer. A few short and concise e-mails would probably get results.
A thought for ya Ray... learn to seek out resources from others who are in the know. Just because this primary contact is falling apart, there are others to tap for the knowledge we seek. Most top players came from the lower ranks and remember their days in the trenches. Have found many folks, "up the ladder" are more than willing and able to guide us along. The hard part is finding them.
Keep pushin'
Swez
PS Yes, you are over a barrel right now. But this will change soon. Are there any SPL shops in your area? If yes, it might be a good resource to drop in, speak to head installer and gets some timely tips on what to do next. If he comes through, flip him a perk of his choosing.
T-RAY on 10/20/2008 02:57:43
Alright! Finally got ahold of the guy at Kinetic again and resent him the email with my issues. Hopefully he will get back to me today!
P.S. He is like "the guy" to talk to!
T-RAY on 10/20/2008 03:04:26
Trae,
The solution that I would highly recommend is to simply replace the HC600 with another HC2000. No need for an isolator at that point. The isolator would actually be a detriment to your current setup. It would only allow the audio system to power itself from the HC600, which obviously is not able to handle that load.
From the horses mouth himself! So do you guys think that I should go with his solution? If so Im only gona order the HC1400 to run my car and move the current 2000 I have to the 600 location after removing it! Does this sound like a winner?
Victor on 10/20/2008 07:54:28
This is what SWEZ wrote at the very beginning of this post...
""""""Going to the larger Kinetik's battery for your sub amps only is highly recommended. The HC2000/2400 will add buffer current to keep your amps well supplied. The HC600 is the primary battery for start and run functions of the car and also helps add additional power to your entire system.""""""""""
This is what you wrote..........
"""""If so Im only gona order the HC1400 to run my car and move the current 2000 I have to the 600 location after removing it! Does this sound like a winner?""""""""
Nah.....! Not when you are paying a handsome amount to win.....
AND this is what the "HORSE" wrote .....
""""""""The isolator would actually be a detriment to your current setup. It would only allow the audio system to power itself from the HC600, which obviously is not able to handle that load.""""""""
Either Dumb Or an Over smart kinetik guy... why cant he think this way ???
why wont the isolator allow the audio system to power itself from the HC 2000 ??? and let the car electronics run on the HC 600 ????
your car electronics along with the HU, line driver and the 4ch amp will not require a bigger battery than the HC 600... and the HC 2000 is enough storage for the 2 amps you have ....
STEP 1: rotate the battery setup.. let the HC 2000 supply to the sub-amplifiers..... other electronics can be connected to the HC 600 as the starter battery...
STEP 2: get an isolator
( this will work to a great extent, take my word, take of it as a Xover in your components, distributing frequencies to each speaker as required, here the isolator distributes power as required, and does not let the batteries drain each other out... )
STEP 3: later an HO alt or dual alt setup... if and when time and budget permits and u really see a need for it....
and again.. i am repeating this...
YOU NEED MORE JUICE .. AND NOT A BIGGER CONTAINER ....
that my final verdict... dont buy that story from the Kinetik guy....PERIOD..!
Victor..
PS: HORSE or A S S ....????? THINK you decide...
T-RAY on 10/20/2008 08:49:59
Very well... I will swap the position of the two batteries. If this does not work... I will go with the isolator, and hopefully that will be as far as I have to take it! The only problem with switching batt. positions is my batts are located in the trunk, rear stowage area, is that there really is no kind of room to put the big batt!
I will have to get something custom done to hold the battery in place and still be able to get to the spare tire if I need it!
Perhaps when I get home I can post some pic's on here and see what you guys suggest I do! Cause the 2 seperate enclosures have no room to move foward and I dont want to place the battery in front of them. Any ideas you guys may already have will be helpful. I will be home thursday and try my best to get some pic's for you guys!
Victor on 10/20/2008 08:55:26
you anyways were going to switch batteries , if you bought the bigger one... right..
then may as well do it now.. i dont see any harm in it...
if it is about space constrains and custom fitments.. well if u cant do it with these batteries how are u going to do it with the newones anyways...??
so take this simple.. dont confuse yourself..
we'd be really happy to help you with this thing..
post some pics, and lets see how things can work out..
just be clear with the line of action we have decided... focus on how to do it.. and dont confuse your self again and again regarding what to do...
thanks... SMILE
Victor...
Victor on 10/20/2008 17:02:53
Keep one thing in mind... once the batteries are swapped.. and the isolator installed... first let the batteries recharge fully before you use them extensively...
Victor...
T-RAY on 10/20/2008 23:34:04
I suppose I should hook then up to a charger then! Just to assure a full and thourough charge! It wasn't really confusing, just three people telling me three different things, and said in one of my other replys that I would have to get something custom if I was going to order another one of those monster's!
But, I really appreciate all of your help and insight Vic! Don't know what I would do when I got home and wasn't this informed! I might have even sold my amps to get a more efficient one like my local shop owner said hahahaha!!!
swez on 10/22/2008 11:54:13
Just to add a thought, as I understand Bat Iso's, they monitor each battery charge level overtime. As the primary start/run Bat is charged to full capacity, a good Iso monitors the other battery in the loop for state of charge.
If one BAT is dropping faster than the other in the circuit, the Iso detects that drop and switches over to the BAT that needs the charging and does so automatically. (A flip-flop kind of arrangement)
The main issue I see is what Vic mentioned. Can the charging system keep up with both BAT needs under extreme conditions? The ALT is liken to a pump. The BAT(s) are liken to storage containers. The Iso has to be smart enough to read both and fill the one that is in need of more juice.
Finally, when we look to any vendor, they will claim their products are superior to others on the market. (They are "brain-washed" to do so, no matter what)
In your specific case, the ideal is a 2 ALT charging system. One to manage the primary car functions. The other is to supply adequate current to power 2 strong sub amps. If your added a full-range amp later to keep up with the bass, this becomes a multi-ALT/BAT scenario.
Comments welcome!
Swez
PS I have no doubt that KIN has great products. However, keeping them up to snuff in your application is tricky and expensive. THINK it over a bit before you respond Okay?
T-RAY on 11/17/2008 15:33:11
Well well! No more problems with dimmage or amp cutting!GRIN And the answer... large CAPACITOR! My step-dad happened to have a 40 farad cap ( don't know where he got it! ) but persuaded me to try it before I spent any money on anything else! Needless to say I removed my HC600 and replaced it with the capacitor.... FLAWLESS! GRIN
I apologize for not sending you guys pictures of my setup but it seems someone had dropped and broken my digital camera! Now I have to buy another one of those MAD!!! However, since I got my raise as of recent, it should not be a problem! No one seems to know who or what happened to my camera though! THINK How mysterious!!!!
Unfortunately he said I have to get my own because his was not for sale! Now Im on the hunt for a good, reliable cap and I can't remember what his was! When Im finished I will be happy to post an update on my success!
swez on 11/18/2008 11:09:06
Really... a 40 Farad Cap?
It makes sense that this would work, but the cost of one in this range could be a real budget breaker too. Where'd he get one in that range???
Swez
T-RAY on 11/18/2008 15:39:16
Like I said, I dont know where he got it from but it works better than I would have thought! I have been looking on the web and you are right about the budget braking on that size a capacitor!
I've seen them from $400 to $700 dollars! However, my good people at sonicelectronix have them really cheap! They offer a 50 farad Absolute capacitor for only $149.99! Have never heard of that brand so I dont think I'll be buying one of those, and there are no reviews on it!
The thing is, according to sonic, I do not need a 40 farad cap! Their formula is 1 farad for every 500 watts rms! Meaning I would only need a 4-5 farad cap! But I was thinking, if the big one worked so well, would I need to just buy a 10+, or go by the formula that says I only need a 4-5 farad cap?
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