Hi im pretty new to the whole "ICE"ing
intsalled my own deck, amp and sub bout a year ago.
it was all running fine til yesterday
i decided what the hell ill add another amp and sub
didnt turn out how i wanted so i put it all back the way it was
but now whenever the sub tries to kisck the rest of the speakers in the car pretty much die. as in they make very lil sound
this is my current set up
-JVC KD-G635
-stock blaupunkt dual cone splits (front doors) off deck
-stock blaupunkt dual cones (rear doors) off deck
-JVC KSAX3500 amp
-Kenwood KFC-W300S sub bridged 2 channels off amp
-VDO 150W 4' splits (middle of rear seat) off amp
what i want to add is a 1200W amp
and a JVC GD4300 sub
i was gonna run the subs thru the 1200w amp
the rear door speakers (which im about to replace) and the VDO's thru the 600w amp
any ideas on how i can do this so that...
1. it actually works
2. it pumps.
both subs are in custom sealed boxes.
any help would be appreciated
cheers guys.
d('_')b - "I Come From A Land Down Under"
Replies (10)
swez on 07/22/2008 03:43:02
Welcome to CK there Shay!
Well, you have a nice JVC deck and that 4 channel amp is best used to power your front and rear full range speakers. That will bring up the power to both front and rear stages.
? for ya: What are the fuse values in this X3500 amp?
The other thing to consider, is adding a sub and woofer(s) to bring up the low end bass. Here, a Class D MONO amp is the best choice as they are much more efficient with power. (Class D amps are ~80% eff; Class A/B amps are only ~60% eff)
Since this car has a modest electrical system to support high power add ons, best to keep your sub amp in the 300-400 watt RMS range. In most cases, the ideal speaker load will be 2 ohms to the amp used.
When going for this type of plan, you'll need a power wire up grade to #4 gage from the battery to the amps. That is fed to a Distribution Block that has a #4 input and dual #8 outputs to feed each amp.
Are ya tracking with me so far?
Swez
ShaysOZVectra on 07/22/2008 12:10:41
Cheers for the reply
yeah im with ya mate
the JVC amp has 2 20amp fuses im pretty sure
and yeah i have already 4G wiring with a 60 Amp fuse on that.
the amps ive got are 300 RMS and 600 RMS
and both are 4 channel
how can i find out if they are class A/B or class D
im pretty sure tey are only A/B as they werent too expensive
i think both of my subs are about 300 Rms
d('_')b - "I Come From A Land Down Under"
ShaysOZVectra on 07/22/2008 12:36:00
another thing.
whats your view on capacitors
how do they work
and what do they do
one of my mates reckommended i get one
d('_')b - "I Come From A Land Down Under"
swez on 07/22/2008 12:45:26
Most/all 2 channel and all 4 channel full range amps are Class A/B. These are designed for full range audio reproduction while Class D amps are primarily designed for subs use only.
Since you have two Class A/B amps on hand, one is used for your F/R speakers, Full range) and the other is best to be traded,sold or bartered for future needs. Use a modest Class D amp for your sub(s).
The real catch here, we only have so much electrical power to run add on amps. If this vehicle has say 75-80 amp ALT, 40-50A's will be needed to keep the vehicle powered adequately. (Depending on accessories) But that amperage rating is not what we see at low engine RPM's. At Idle speeds, we see about 60% of max rated ALT output. As RPM exceeds ~2,200 RPM, we get more power from the ALT.
I would suggest keeping the smaller 4 channel to use and find a buyer for the larger 4 channel amp. Than, look for a Mono Block type Class D amp that is fused at/below 40 A's for your sub(s). That gives you 300-350 watts RMS @ 2 ohms for the bass engine. Yes, this is still a bit strong for the stock electricals, but there are ways to minimize the power draw.
Finally, JVC offers very different products to Ausi buyers than here in the USA. The model nimbers you mentioned are not used/available in the US market. So, we have to rely on your search skills to find the best amp/sub(s) for the bass engine you would like to use.
In most cases, a solid 4+4 DVC sub (Net 2 ohms) is all you need. To get the most bass, the sub(s) used should have high eff and can be sealed or even better, a ported enclosure for better low bass. (88dB @ 2.83 volts or higher, is a good place to start)
OK, that's a general guide to research for now. If you have matching subs and they are ~300 RMS, 4 ohms each, they are usable. If you see the need to use a larger Class D amp to power them, there are other tricks we can discuss on the next round.
Swez
ShaysOZVectra on 07/22/2008 13:43:16
cheers mate
found out my car has a 130A alternator
got any ideas how to stop the speakers off the deck cuttin out whenever the sub tries to play
just just runnin the 600w amp and a sub. the rest of the speakers are of the deck
ShaysOZVectra on 07/22/2008 13:43:58
oh and the fuses on the JVC are actually 2x25A
swez on 07/22/2008 17:45:17
Good news on that ALT. If you did elect to upgrade later, this should handle 2 amps well.
2 x 25 A fuses indicate this amp can deliver 150 x 2 RMS when bridged and 50-75 Wrms x 4, depending on the speaker load per channel. (2-4 ohms per channel)
After chewing on the speakers issue a bit, that would lead me to pull the HU/Deck and inspect the wires in the harness to the stock speaker leads there. They should be soldered and sleeved with "shrink tubing" or use good quality crimp connectors to join all wires. If they were just wrapped bare wires and taped, that method works for a while, but have seen these fail or short after a few hot summers. (Tape releases)
Surge Caps do not help much as they cannot hold a sufficient charge well enough to help the bass amp more than a few short bursts of deep bass before they run out of power and recharge again. The better approach is a dedicated battery for the sub amp only. The battery holds a steady voltage and much more reserve amperage to feed the amp as needed. (More on that later if you wish)
Lame analogy: Caps are like a 6 shot pistol. Ya get 6 shots and have to reload. The battery approach is more like a 50 cal machine gun with 2000 round ammo cans feeding it. That means a lot of big shots at the target before having to reload. Read this for more details:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/cgi-bin/car_audio_faq/faq.cgi?g5316
Gooday mate,
Swez
SQLThump on 07/23/2008 04:51:27
Dude, that was not a lame analogy, when it comes to surge caps, it is a great analogy.
ShaysOZVectra on 07/23/2008 14:45:21
cheers mate
gotta remember where not alowed to bear arms down here. lol
but i get the point
if i was looking a gettin another battery would i go deep cell or normal and would i connect it to the alternator?
and yeah the electrics in this car are pretty over the top
the alternator is 130A
the battery is 600CCA 90RC
thats bigger than we recommend for the chevy ls1's or ls2's
and mines only a 4cyl
will check the wirin harness as soon as possible mate
til then...
catcha later
d('_')b - "I Come From A Land Down Under"
swez on 07/23/2008 16:13:06
Here, the strategy is to use the main battery for all vehicle needs and power the full range amp. The AUX Battery is sized to the amp it supports for the sub(s). It is good to use a Deep Cycle battery, Gel Cells) for the AUX feed as these are designed for deep discharge cycles over long durations and will last much longer than a stock Lead/Acid battery.
As far as the CCA rating of the Aux Battery, 600 CCA is fine for amps that draw less than 80 A's of current at full power. (100% Duty Cycle for test tone) They recover quickly and have plenty of reserve watts if needed. Caps cannot handle that discharge rate for long. Some guys just add a Gel Cell off the main power line and use the ALT to charge both batteries as needed.
For high wattage sub amps, (100 A's an up), many use a battery isolator device. This samples the charging needs of all batteries in the system and when the primary, (Starter Bat) is fulfilled, it then tops off the Aux Bat. Can give more details if you choose that route.
When you have the opportunity, pull the deck and inspect the wiring and connection method used. If you see tape and twisted wires only, that's an easy fix.
Keep us posted as needed,
Swez
PS Another analogy here... A Surge Cap is like a few milliliters of petrol storage container. A dedicated Deep Cycle Battery is more like several hundred liters of storage capacity in a compact space for about the same price.
intsalled my own deck, amp and sub bout a year ago.
it was all running fine til yesterday
i decided what the hell ill add another amp and sub
didnt turn out how i wanted so i put it all back the way it was
but now whenever the sub tries to kisck the rest of the speakers in the car pretty much die. as in they make very lil sound
this is my current set up
-JVC KD-G635
-stock blaupunkt dual cone splits (front doors) off deck
-stock blaupunkt dual cones (rear doors) off deck
-JVC KSAX3500 amp
-Kenwood KFC-W300S sub bridged 2 channels off amp
-VDO 150W 4' splits (middle of rear seat) off amp
what i want to add is a 1200W amp
and a JVC GD4300 sub
i was gonna run the subs thru the 1200w amp
the rear door speakers (which im about to replace) and the VDO's thru the 600w amp
any ideas on how i can do this so that...
1. it actually works
2. it pumps.
both subs are in custom sealed boxes.
any help would be appreciated
cheers guys.
d('_')b - "I Come From A Land Down Under"
Replies (10)
swez on 07/22/2008 03:43:02
Welcome to CK there Shay!
Well, you have a nice JVC deck and that 4 channel amp is best used to power your front and rear full range speakers. That will bring up the power to both front and rear stages.
? for ya: What are the fuse values in this X3500 amp?
The other thing to consider, is adding a sub and woofer(s) to bring up the low end bass. Here, a Class D MONO amp is the best choice as they are much more efficient with power. (Class D amps are ~80% eff; Class A/B amps are only ~60% eff)
Since this car has a modest electrical system to support high power add ons, best to keep your sub amp in the 300-400 watt RMS range. In most cases, the ideal speaker load will be 2 ohms to the amp used.
When going for this type of plan, you'll need a power wire up grade to #4 gage from the battery to the amps. That is fed to a Distribution Block that has a #4 input and dual #8 outputs to feed each amp.
Are ya tracking with me so far?
Swez
ShaysOZVectra on 07/22/2008 12:10:41
Cheers for the reply
yeah im with ya mate
the JVC amp has 2 20amp fuses im pretty sure
and yeah i have already 4G wiring with a 60 Amp fuse on that.
the amps ive got are 300 RMS and 600 RMS
and both are 4 channel
how can i find out if they are class A/B or class D
im pretty sure tey are only A/B as they werent too expensive
i think both of my subs are about 300 Rms
d('_')b - "I Come From A Land Down Under"
ShaysOZVectra on 07/22/2008 12:36:00
another thing.
whats your view on capacitors
how do they work
and what do they do
one of my mates reckommended i get one
d('_')b - "I Come From A Land Down Under"
swez on 07/22/2008 12:45:26
Most/all 2 channel and all 4 channel full range amps are Class A/B. These are designed for full range audio reproduction while Class D amps are primarily designed for subs use only.
Since you have two Class A/B amps on hand, one is used for your F/R speakers, Full range) and the other is best to be traded,sold or bartered for future needs. Use a modest Class D amp for your sub(s).
The real catch here, we only have so much electrical power to run add on amps. If this vehicle has say 75-80 amp ALT, 40-50A's will be needed to keep the vehicle powered adequately. (Depending on accessories) But that amperage rating is not what we see at low engine RPM's. At Idle speeds, we see about 60% of max rated ALT output. As RPM exceeds ~2,200 RPM, we get more power from the ALT.
I would suggest keeping the smaller 4 channel to use and find a buyer for the larger 4 channel amp. Than, look for a Mono Block type Class D amp that is fused at/below 40 A's for your sub(s). That gives you 300-350 watts RMS @ 2 ohms for the bass engine. Yes, this is still a bit strong for the stock electricals, but there are ways to minimize the power draw.
Finally, JVC offers very different products to Ausi buyers than here in the USA. The model nimbers you mentioned are not used/available in the US market. So, we have to rely on your search skills to find the best amp/sub(s) for the bass engine you would like to use.
In most cases, a solid 4+4 DVC sub (Net 2 ohms) is all you need. To get the most bass, the sub(s) used should have high eff and can be sealed or even better, a ported enclosure for better low bass. (88dB @ 2.83 volts or higher, is a good place to start)
OK, that's a general guide to research for now. If you have matching subs and they are ~300 RMS, 4 ohms each, they are usable. If you see the need to use a larger Class D amp to power them, there are other tricks we can discuss on the next round.
Swez
ShaysOZVectra on 07/22/2008 13:43:16
cheers mate
found out my car has a 130A alternator
got any ideas how to stop the speakers off the deck cuttin out whenever the sub tries to play
just just runnin the 600w amp and a sub. the rest of the speakers are of the deck
ShaysOZVectra on 07/22/2008 13:43:58
oh and the fuses on the JVC are actually 2x25A
swez on 07/22/2008 17:45:17
Good news on that ALT. If you did elect to upgrade later, this should handle 2 amps well.
2 x 25 A fuses indicate this amp can deliver 150 x 2 RMS when bridged and 50-75 Wrms x 4, depending on the speaker load per channel. (2-4 ohms per channel)
After chewing on the speakers issue a bit, that would lead me to pull the HU/Deck and inspect the wires in the harness to the stock speaker leads there. They should be soldered and sleeved with "shrink tubing" or use good quality crimp connectors to join all wires. If they were just wrapped bare wires and taped, that method works for a while, but have seen these fail or short after a few hot summers. (Tape releases)
Surge Caps do not help much as they cannot hold a sufficient charge well enough to help the bass amp more than a few short bursts of deep bass before they run out of power and recharge again. The better approach is a dedicated battery for the sub amp only. The battery holds a steady voltage and much more reserve amperage to feed the amp as needed. (More on that later if you wish)
Lame analogy: Caps are like a 6 shot pistol. Ya get 6 shots and have to reload. The battery approach is more like a 50 cal machine gun with 2000 round ammo cans feeding it. That means a lot of big shots at the target before having to reload. Read this for more details:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/cgi-bin/car_audio_faq/faq.cgi?g5316
Gooday mate,
Swez
SQLThump on 07/23/2008 04:51:27
Dude, that was not a lame analogy, when it comes to surge caps, it is a great analogy.
ShaysOZVectra on 07/23/2008 14:45:21
cheers mate
gotta remember where not alowed to bear arms down here. lol
but i get the point
if i was looking a gettin another battery would i go deep cell or normal and would i connect it to the alternator?
and yeah the electrics in this car are pretty over the top
the alternator is 130A
the battery is 600CCA 90RC
thats bigger than we recommend for the chevy ls1's or ls2's
and mines only a 4cyl
will check the wirin harness as soon as possible mate
til then...
catcha later
d('_')b - "I Come From A Land Down Under"
swez on 07/23/2008 16:13:06
Here, the strategy is to use the main battery for all vehicle needs and power the full range amp. The AUX Battery is sized to the amp it supports for the sub(s). It is good to use a Deep Cycle battery, Gel Cells) for the AUX feed as these are designed for deep discharge cycles over long durations and will last much longer than a stock Lead/Acid battery.
As far as the CCA rating of the Aux Battery, 600 CCA is fine for amps that draw less than 80 A's of current at full power. (100% Duty Cycle for test tone) They recover quickly and have plenty of reserve watts if needed. Caps cannot handle that discharge rate for long. Some guys just add a Gel Cell off the main power line and use the ALT to charge both batteries as needed.
For high wattage sub amps, (100 A's an up), many use a battery isolator device. This samples the charging needs of all batteries in the system and when the primary, (Starter Bat) is fulfilled, it then tops off the Aux Bat. Can give more details if you choose that route.
When you have the opportunity, pull the deck and inspect the wiring and connection method used. If you see tape and twisted wires only, that's an easy fix.
Keep us posted as needed,
Swez
PS Another analogy here... A Surge Cap is like a few milliliters of petrol storage container. A dedicated Deep Cycle Battery is more like several hundred liters of storage capacity in a compact space for about the same price.
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