I'm going to install that IDQ10 V.3 in my car and it handles 500 watts RMS. Right now TEMPORARILY I'm going to use a Boss because it was free.
BUT, what amps do you guys trust and would recommend that will give me true RMS power at 2 ohms and have good quality/reliability? Basically just which brands do you like?
Replies (27)
MrBrownstone on 07/11/2008 07:17:06
Keep in mind, about 35% of amplifiers in the industry are made by the same hands with the same parts in the same little factories in Korea or China. Also, many brands are clones of other brands, so here's my list of amps I've used & have retained my esteem.
In pseudo alphabetical order:
Alpine
ARC
Boston Acoustic
Crossfire
DEI
Diamond Audio
Earthquake
Eclispe
Infinity
JBL
JL Audio
Kenwood Excelon
Kicker
Memphis
MMATS
MTX
Nakamichi
Orion
Phoenix Gold
Precision Power
Rockford
Soundstream
Zapco
I only use the Top of the Line (TOL) amps and recommend that you do as well. You can always reuse a quality amplifier on a different system & will get the best results from them.
swez on 07/12/2008 10:18:19
Yes, you have a great list as usual Mr. B. All amps noted are top drawer, audiophile and SQL minded users. They all cost a bit more, but they last and are very reliable when used as designed.
Swez
MrBrownstone on 07/15/2008 04:30:06
Only chics buy disposable cameras. Why would a guy buy a disposable amplifier? USFLAG
If I save everyone the hassle of buying a 'starter' or disposable amplifier, my time invested in Car audio in ***GULP*** 20 years today will not be in vain.
Just like the Oakland Raiders, even when they are in last place, why would you want to support an overrated team? Something that promise more than it can physically deliver is ridiculous.
10 months later, some people will thank me for recommending a great product, but everybody will curse my name if I recommend a POS. MAD
swez on 07/15/2008 05:12:54
Don't ya think people are already cursing us for recommending quality gear to replace the POOPIE PILE gear they just bought out of ignorance? (Lack of knowledge or cash)
In reality though, most trash amps will work OK if they are installed and used as designed. Helped a kid out a few years back that had a very trashy install and a 2 channel Soundstorm amp. When installed in his car, everything sounded like very bad cow pies. (Hammered Schnitz!)
So, removed the amp and tested it on my rig and after some minor tweaks, it sounded not too bad. Then, grabbed his sub box, pulled the subs and saw a real mess in the wiring there too. After rewiring the DVC's to a 4 ohm load and soldering all wires that were just wrapped around the sub terminal lugs, tested the subs on my amp. Again, not too shabby! They were off brand subs I'd never heard of, but they were built pretty well for cheap subs. ($25.00 each?)
Finally installed amp and subs back in this kids ride and dialed things in to get the best sound possible. Again, not too shabby for such a cheap system.
We know, Mr. B has said this a thousand times, but it bears repeating. "The results we get are 80% install practices and 20% gear used". However, reliabilty is what one is really buying when we use quality brand name products.
Nuff said,
Swez
SQLThump on 07/15/2008 09:25:12
I agree strongly with the statement "The results we get are 80% install practices and 20% gear used". But reccommending somebody use lesser gear is bad too I guess.....
Maybe we need to compile a huge 5 mile long list of all the hammered shniz brands, some average ones, and use it. We could just say "don't use anything on this list, and if you already have something off of it, take it out and shoot at it....
swez on 07/15/2008 10:06:49
Don't get me wrong... am not advocating the used of low budget, trash gear ever!
But at the same time, if one is looking to build on investment grade gear, anything on Mr. B's brand hit list makes total sense. The trick is good shopping and the willingness to wait until the right deal comes along.
I duuno about others, but it feels so good to do the research, save up the cash and when the right deal comes onto the radar screen... pull the trigger. I use this approach to almost everything I buy these days. The real gratification comes later, but when we can score a superior product at a bargain basement price, Whoo Hooo!!! That is a very satifying moment when we open up the box, see that new widget and then try it out. YES!!! "This is just what I wanted and even more!"
Don't get me wrong though. I have made a few snap decision blunders and regretted them later too. It's like the "Buy It Now" devil sneeked in while I was not thinking strategically and I made a dumb move. We all know the feeling... the sweaty palms, the chills down the neck, the thrill of the chase and all that other jazz. When we get to that point and did not do our homework, (Research) we're doomed to make a poor choice. (Hate that feeling..."Buyer's remorse")
THINK about that a bit OK?
Swez
newB on 07/15/2008 18:57:53
I would trust:
Rockford
Stetsom
and
Sundown
although rockford has been mentioned i'd drop in those other two among top SPL amps that are trustworthy, small companies with great CS
-Drew
hooviemoto87 on 07/27/2008 12:10:01
I found a Kenwood KAC-8104D. You think that would do me well? Iove the signal sensing turn on feature. However, I also found this Alpine MRP-M500 amp that looks nice. Both of them less than $200. What do you think about these?
Does it hurt sound quality to convert the line level to RCA's? Better to use an amp with high levels??
swez on 07/27/2008 23:25:00
Go the Alpine route if it fits your budget. Alpine makes many great products and their amps are a good investment as long as one does not abuse their gear. They are rated accurately, reliable and will give years of dependable service.
The Kenwood amp mentioned will also do the job. It has similar features to the Alpine and cost is lower. The subsonic filter is a bit better than the Alpine, but for overall performance, they are both good choices.
Consider these:
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3732 $149.00 USD
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=6401 $140.00 USD
As for RCA or speaker input options, these amps have both options. Depending on the HU used, you can go either way. Better Aftermarket HU's have a sub output feature in the menu. That's a plus for finger tip control of the bass engine.
If you have a stock HU, use the speaker level input option and use the HU bass control function to dial up/down the low bass power from the amp/sub(s).
Comments?
Swez
PS I hope you have the IDQ10-D4 V.3 sub. This nets a 2 ohm load to the amp. Both amps mentioned are 2 ohm stable and deliver a solid 450 watts RMS + @ 2 ohms.
hooviemoto87 on 07/28/2008 04:07:28
Yes, I do have that subwoofer and I am running it at 2 ohms. It handles 500 RMS. I agree with what you said on the high levels. I don't see how adapting it to RCA's could make the sound quality any better. I am using the stock head unit. I ran the sub knob up to the left side glove box and used double sided tape to hide it away in there. It works well.
I have come to find out that the stock HU gets plenty loud for me. After adding the subwoofer for the bass and turning the bass on the HU down to 0 or -1, it plays very loud and the quality of the sound is great on -1. It hits every note up until the 90 Hz low pass. I'm glad the new amp will go up to 125+. I'm going to replace the speakers and be done with it I think.
I was going to go with the alpine, but now that I saw the automatic on/off feature on the Kenwood, I'm leaning that way. The reason is that I want the subwoofer to keep running when the key is out since the head unit stays on until the door is opened. Since you said they are overall pretty good, I might get the Kenwood for that extra feature.
By the way, that IDQ10-D4 V.3 subwoofer in a sealed box puts out just as much bass as my old 12 inch V.2 in a ported box and it only has 100 watts going to it from a BOSS amp. It's going to be crazy with a new amp. Their spec sheet says 20 dB more than the V.2's, but who knows where or how they tested it; could have been different.
As long as y'all like that Kenwood I think I'll go with it! Thanks y'all for the help on that.
swez on 07/28/2008 06:29:20
I don't see a win-lose in either amp choice here. Kenwood seems to run slighly higher wattage numbers than the Alpine, but even at +/- 50 watts, the SPL output is not an issue.
As for the amp staying on after you pull the key, as long as the HU is playing and the Remote line has power, both amps will remain on until you open the door. (Depends on the Rem tap used)
As for the IDQ V.3 having a full 20dB more SPL than the V.2 model, I would not believe that w/o knowing the specs and testing methods employed for this claim.
Yes, a vendor can change to a short coil throw, lighter cone material and a stronger motor/magnet design to take more power and have higher eff ratings, but that would only account for +6 or 8 dB more SPL. The rest is the enclosure design and cabin gain, (Transfer function) side of the equation.
Doing this is a good way to squeeze a few extra dB in a very narrow frequency range and that's what SPL subs do very well. But for a well balanced SQL system, we trade performance tweaks in SPL for wider range and smoother frequency plots at the expense of pure SPL.
Swez
hooviemoto87 on 07/30/2008 03:05:20
Interesting. It is hard to believe that about the subwoofer because every 3 dB is twice the audible sound and it doesn't sound 20 dB louder anyway.
As far as the remote wire, I tested every singe fuse with a volt meter and either it is off until the key is in the run position, or they're always on. No ACC. My local shop tells me you won't find a wire that will work with the head unit the way I want. I guess I could pull the HU and figure out which wire still has power 'till I open the door.
Question: If I were to amp the door speakers, should I tap from the speaker wire behind the speaker or from the back of the HU since there is an amplifier built into the car?
hooviemoto87 on 07/30/2008 03:12:23
One more question. In the cobalt, the speakers are labels as 8 ohms. So, will it be reliable with 4 ohm speakers and would that give me a few more watts to the new speakers?
swez on 07/30/2008 06:17:51
For the 1st issue, a +3dB gain is available when we double the power fed to the speaker, sub ect. Human hearing can detect that difference, but it's not much of an increase to our ears. To "hear" a 2x increase in audio output, it takes +9dB of power to reach that level.
If your car already has decent speaker amps and a stock HU that sounds good as is, leave it alone. If you choose to upgrade the HU to an Aftermarket version, most guys disable the internal amps and replace with Aftermarket amping and Aftermarket speakers as well. The price tag goes up considerably and may void your warranty too.
As for the Remote amp turn on feature, the Kenwood has "Auto Sense" circuits. Once it detects audio signals coming into the amp input section, it automatically turns on the amp. If you want an external remote, the best bet is to run a new Constant power line with an inline fuse & switch at the dash as the turn on for amp. This is a very low power circuit and only needs #18 gage wire and a 1A fuse at most.
Since your stock speakers are 8 ohm, the amps that drive them are optimized for 8 ohm loads. If you attempted to use 4 ohm speakers and use the factory amps to power them, chances are good that the factory amps will overheat and shut down often when dialing up the HU volume control. (4 ohm speakers are NOT recommended in this case)
FYI: Most factory amps and speakers are tuned specifically to the vehicle they are installed in. More often than not, this means filtering and phase manipulation for what the Audio Design Engineers consider to be optimal for a given vehicle. In most cases, they do a good job at matching system components for the average listener.
However, factory optimazation tricks may not be to some owners liking. If owners want more flexibilty, they often gut/disable the OEM system and start fresh with new system components. That process is expensive, time consuming and takes a good deal of patience. Do you really want to go through all that at this point in time? (Warranty issues will come up if you do this now)
Think it over carefully,
Swez
hooviemoto87 on 07/30/2008 08:14:47
very comprehensive, thank you! I really don't want to go through all that, but I am curious as to all of my options. Like I was saying before I'm just gonna put in some new speakers eventually and be done with it.
So, then, about the speakers being 8 ohm. Say someone wanted you to install some new speakers in their car and the factory system is 8 ohms. What would you do?
swez on 07/30/2008 09:59:03
Quote: "So, then, about the speakers being 8 ohm. Say someone wanted you to install some new speakers in their car and the factory system is 8 ohms. What would you do?"
I would ask for a well-defined set of reasons to swap speakers and test a known good brand of aftermarket speakers and see how things sound and how the amps react too. (Test and verify the results or changes in sound quality)
What in your mind is lacking with the stock system installed now? Try to explain the weak points as you see/hear them.
Another thing to consider, many OEM factory speakers are designed for limited frequency reproduction in the rear. (MB/MR only) Up in the front stage, they often use 2-way speakers for full range performance where it counts most.
OK, did a quick look up on this car and it has 2 basic packages according to Crutchfield. Try to figure out what package your Cobalt has. If you still have the window sticker that gives all the features and goodies for this car, it will tell you which package you have now.
1. Pioneer Upgrade package w/ or w/o Onstar
2. Standard package w/ or w/o Onstar
Cruchfield shows a nice video on how to install Component speakers in the front doors. Have a look to see what you are in for:
http://www.crutchfield.com/learn/learningcenter/car/speakers_component_video.html
http://www.crutchfield.com/learn/learningcenter/car/speakers_component_installation_options.html
In this case, I would call Crutchfield and ask their recommendation on possible speaker upgrades to consider and what issues need to be addressed before you buy anything. Call 1-800-219-3597 Just ask to speak with a mobile audio advisor and see what they suggest.
You don't have to buy from them if the price is better elsewhere. However, they do provide great customer service and custom install notes and free hardware with items they sell. (Peace of mind and above average Tech Support are worth a few extra bucks in most cases)
Finally, I don't do installs for a living like some of the others here. (Ttocs, UK and a few others) The guys in the install bay usually have a solid working knowledge of many vehicles and their experience will help a lot. (Especially if they have done this daily for 2 years or longer)
Yes, have done a maybe a dozen installs of various complexities, but I don't know every vehicle and their unique steps to a successful install.
FYI: I don't take on any major install jobs w/o considerable research and have an 80%+ confidence factor in the job turning out well. (Including my own work) The object is to satisfy the client as much as possible and get paid well for that satisfaction.
Comments?
Swez
swez on 07/30/2008 10:01:35
Oh, this car noted has 6.5" speakers up front and 6x9" ovals in the rear.
Swez
hooviemoto87 on 07/30/2008 14:41:10
yep, it's the standard w/o onstar with 6.5's and 6x9's.
Lower bass and highs come from the front speakers of which are one-way with a whizzer cone. Mids come mostly from the back. I usually turn it two notches back to get a little more mids because it makes an acoustic sound better.
I guess I'll call them up and see what they say. The biggest problem with those speakers is that the highs are not crisp and don't extend as high as I would like. Also, when there is a song with a little rumble, the highs have that pulsation at the same frequency as the rumble. Something that a two way speaker would fix and make me very happy while cleaning up highs and mid highs. I might lose a little bass from the front door, however, if I replace them, but I think the subwoofer will take care of that issue. I can throw some baffles in there to tighten up the bass in the front doors.
The guy at my local store said my best bet is to add the sub like I did and just replace the front door speakers.
Thanks for the advice, I'll call them up and see what they say.
newB on 07/30/2008 19:04:57
if your stocks are 8ohm that just means you need to get TWO new pairs of speakers, glass one into the kicks and one into the doors, then wire them in series for 8ohm per door ^_^
GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN
-Drew
swez on 07/30/2008 21:19:54
That's a good review and yes, Component type speakers in the front stage will help a lot. The whizzer cone design extends frequency range to a degree, but cannot match a good set of coaxial or 2-way Component speakers for clear, crisp highs.
Are you certain this system even has external factory amps? I can see the Pioneer package having them, but the standard OEM may not. Crutch advisors should know that answer.
Also, GM has used mix & match speakers for front and rear stage speaker balancing in the past. They often used 4-6 ohm speakers in front and 8-10 ohms speakers in the rear deck for better fade control. (Rear deck speakers tend to be louder due to location and rear window reflections) They compensate for the few extra dB in the back with higher ohmic speakers.
Most stock speakers are very efficient, but very cheap too. In mass production, these speakers cost about $5.00 in huge bulk quantities/lots. They are fine for tin-ears that only listen to AM/FM and drop in a CD's once in a while. But for the critical listener, the stock speakers are just not up to par w/ Aftermarket brands with quality speaker components and crossovers.
Swez
hooviemoto87 on 08/1/2008 03:37:16
I like the way you think Drew, hahaha.
hooviemoto87 on 08/1/2008 15:55:55
Ok, here is the verdict from the guy at crutchfield earlier today. The basic stereo that I have does not have an extra amplifier. It is all run off of the head unit. I explained to him that I installed a 10 inch subwoofer and that I was afraid of running speakers that are 4 or 2 ohms due to the speakers installed are possibly 8 ohm all the way around. However, he said that any speaker that I install will be fine. He also said that it is not a good idea to install a component system unless I use an amplifier because they really need an amp to have good sound. So, for my situation, he suggested using the stock system, and replacing all four speakers with Infinity 6022i's...
SIDE NOTE: One day I was listening to all the speakers in best buy and circuit city and those were the best coaxials that I heard in the store (the 6022i). Completely changed my negative attitude about infinity.
However, they are two ohms. But he suggested them because he claims that infinity has tested these speakers on most stock head units and have not had a problem. He also said that his buddy has a cobalt, two door though, and they did something similar, replacing the 4 speakers and there are no problems. I asked him about bringing out the mids and highs, and here's what he said on that:
He said that the smaller speaker will give me better mids and highs, so, it would be beneficial to replace all the speakers, even the 6x9's in the rear deck with the 6.5 inch 6022i. He also said to use baffles to tighten up the sound. He said since bass isn't an issue with the subwoofer, then the new 6.5's all the way around would give me what I'm looking for, which is improved clarity overall, plenty of mids and highs, and would sound good for the wide range of music I listen to. I also noticed that all of the hardware (harnesses, adapters for rear deck) are all free from crutchfield, which is convenient if I do choose to do that.
So, 6.5 inch Infinity 6022I's all the way around with foam baffles. Do you think it's a good idea? It makes sense to me...
Any comments?
Thanks! ;)
swez on 08/1/2008 23:25:29
Good feedback from Crutch here. Now we know the stock system is not amped.
One thing I would question is the use of foam baffles mentioned. They are so small, they definitely impede the midbass performance unless modified a bit with a utility blade. They make for a good moisture barrier when trimmed and won't impede MB this way. (Front door install for sure) Good plan as is in the rear deck so the sub waves don't interfere with the rear deck speakers.
As for Comps in front, agreed! Amping them is the way to go to get the most from them. (50 watts RMS min.)
The price is good for 2 pairs and these are pretty high efficiency speakers too. The 2 ohm speakers will give several dB more SPL than your stock speakers. Having the master install sheet will help guide you in this car install and the adapter harnesses make for a clean install and you can also remove them if you sell the car later and just reinstall the stock speakers.
Question: Do either of the rear seat backs flip down for extended cargo space in this Cobalt?
Swez
Ash on 08/2/2008 00:04:51
Agreed! I have experimented with foam baffles in the past and found that they generally don't work. They're just too small to get good resonance. The only way to get them to help is if you had drivers with specs that require micro enclosures. These types of drivers aren't normally made for car audio and are hard to find.
Most car audio drivers are made to play infinite baffle with different approaches for different responses. I'm quite sure Infinity designed their's to work in that way.
When concerned about interference on rear deck speakers from subs a simple, but effective technique can be used if applicable. Try installing the sub box flush with the back seat so no bass waves travel throughout the trunk. The front baffle will be angled to fit the seat and thickened enough to recess the subs so they don't hit any structure while excursing.
Similar to infinite baffle subs, but with a enclosure. In this style most, if not all, of the air pushed from the subs fire directly into the cab with minimal disturbance on the rears.
This may or may not work on cars with solid back seats. Removal of the sound insulation between the trunk and rear seat is also necessary which should be done in all trunk installs.
hooviemoto87 on 08/3/2008 09:16:04
It's not possible for me to reposition my subwoofer. I built the subwoofer box to fit in the hole by the wheel well and will defiinately not fit or stand up anywhere else. Plus it looks sweet since I carpeted it the same color as the car. It turned out well. It's somewhere in the .9 -1.0 cu. ft. range. Just roughly calculated it. 3/4" MDF, around 1/2 inch of polyfill. I spent the extra time sealing it with silicon, and I'm happy I did because it is sealed so tight that the speaker doesn't move at all if you touch it.
Check it out:
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2516/399279r10124a004dg4.jpg
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6593/399279r10103a003fq1.jpg
THE PLAN: replace front speakers with 6022i, no baffles. Replace rear speakers with 6022i, with baffles. I think this is the plan.
One question: are Kappa speakers any better for my application? I'm guessing the refrences are better because of lower power handling.
thanks guys
swez on 08/3/2008 10:33:49
Can you get a good shot of the rear speakers from inside the trunk? If the rear speakers have a cover panel of carpeted cardboard, you may not even need the foam baffles.
Nice, clean install on sub and amp here. Good work!
As for Kappa's VS Ref series, yes... the Ref series is better for non-amped systems. The Kappa Series need amped power to get the most from them.
FYI: The front speakers will be fine for now w/o the baffles. (New car) If you plan on keeping this car for over 5 years, I would suggest buying and installing the baffles, but cut away the lower section of the baffles and allow a rain shield cap over the top of these speakers. As cars age, the window seals will leak and could cause water damage to the front speakers.
Just an FYI. But you should be OK for several years w/o the foam baffles in the front doors. (Your call)
Swez
hooviemoto87 on 08/4/2008 14:17:17
those speakers are completely bare in the back. They're mounted in the metal with nothing below them.
BUT, what amps do you guys trust and would recommend that will give me true RMS power at 2 ohms and have good quality/reliability? Basically just which brands do you like?
Replies (27)
MrBrownstone on 07/11/2008 07:17:06
Keep in mind, about 35% of amplifiers in the industry are made by the same hands with the same parts in the same little factories in Korea or China. Also, many brands are clones of other brands, so here's my list of amps I've used & have retained my esteem.
In pseudo alphabetical order:
Alpine
ARC
Boston Acoustic
Crossfire
DEI
Diamond Audio
Earthquake
Eclispe
Infinity
JBL
JL Audio
Kenwood Excelon
Kicker
Memphis
MMATS
MTX
Nakamichi
Orion
Phoenix Gold
Precision Power
Rockford
Soundstream
Zapco
I only use the Top of the Line (TOL) amps and recommend that you do as well. You can always reuse a quality amplifier on a different system & will get the best results from them.
swez on 07/12/2008 10:18:19
Yes, you have a great list as usual Mr. B. All amps noted are top drawer, audiophile and SQL minded users. They all cost a bit more, but they last and are very reliable when used as designed.
Swez
MrBrownstone on 07/15/2008 04:30:06
Only chics buy disposable cameras. Why would a guy buy a disposable amplifier? USFLAG
If I save everyone the hassle of buying a 'starter' or disposable amplifier, my time invested in Car audio in ***GULP*** 20 years today will not be in vain.
Just like the Oakland Raiders, even when they are in last place, why would you want to support an overrated team? Something that promise more than it can physically deliver is ridiculous.
10 months later, some people will thank me for recommending a great product, but everybody will curse my name if I recommend a POS. MAD
swez on 07/15/2008 05:12:54
Don't ya think people are already cursing us for recommending quality gear to replace the POOPIE PILE gear they just bought out of ignorance? (Lack of knowledge or cash)
In reality though, most trash amps will work OK if they are installed and used as designed. Helped a kid out a few years back that had a very trashy install and a 2 channel Soundstorm amp. When installed in his car, everything sounded like very bad cow pies. (Hammered Schnitz!)
So, removed the amp and tested it on my rig and after some minor tweaks, it sounded not too bad. Then, grabbed his sub box, pulled the subs and saw a real mess in the wiring there too. After rewiring the DVC's to a 4 ohm load and soldering all wires that were just wrapped around the sub terminal lugs, tested the subs on my amp. Again, not too shabby! They were off brand subs I'd never heard of, but they were built pretty well for cheap subs. ($25.00 each?)
Finally installed amp and subs back in this kids ride and dialed things in to get the best sound possible. Again, not too shabby for such a cheap system.
We know, Mr. B has said this a thousand times, but it bears repeating. "The results we get are 80% install practices and 20% gear used". However, reliabilty is what one is really buying when we use quality brand name products.
Nuff said,
Swez
SQLThump on 07/15/2008 09:25:12
I agree strongly with the statement "The results we get are 80% install practices and 20% gear used". But reccommending somebody use lesser gear is bad too I guess.....
Maybe we need to compile a huge 5 mile long list of all the hammered shniz brands, some average ones, and use it. We could just say "don't use anything on this list, and if you already have something off of it, take it out and shoot at it....
swez on 07/15/2008 10:06:49
Don't get me wrong... am not advocating the used of low budget, trash gear ever!
But at the same time, if one is looking to build on investment grade gear, anything on Mr. B's brand hit list makes total sense. The trick is good shopping and the willingness to wait until the right deal comes along.
I duuno about others, but it feels so good to do the research, save up the cash and when the right deal comes onto the radar screen... pull the trigger. I use this approach to almost everything I buy these days. The real gratification comes later, but when we can score a superior product at a bargain basement price, Whoo Hooo!!! That is a very satifying moment when we open up the box, see that new widget and then try it out. YES!!! "This is just what I wanted and even more!"
Don't get me wrong though. I have made a few snap decision blunders and regretted them later too. It's like the "Buy It Now" devil sneeked in while I was not thinking strategically and I made a dumb move. We all know the feeling... the sweaty palms, the chills down the neck, the thrill of the chase and all that other jazz. When we get to that point and did not do our homework, (Research) we're doomed to make a poor choice. (Hate that feeling..."Buyer's remorse")
THINK about that a bit OK?
Swez
newB on 07/15/2008 18:57:53
I would trust:
Rockford
Stetsom
and
Sundown
although rockford has been mentioned i'd drop in those other two among top SPL amps that are trustworthy, small companies with great CS
-Drew
hooviemoto87 on 07/27/2008 12:10:01
I found a Kenwood KAC-8104D. You think that would do me well? Iove the signal sensing turn on feature. However, I also found this Alpine MRP-M500 amp that looks nice. Both of them less than $200. What do you think about these?
Does it hurt sound quality to convert the line level to RCA's? Better to use an amp with high levels??
swez on 07/27/2008 23:25:00
Go the Alpine route if it fits your budget. Alpine makes many great products and their amps are a good investment as long as one does not abuse their gear. They are rated accurately, reliable and will give years of dependable service.
The Kenwood amp mentioned will also do the job. It has similar features to the Alpine and cost is lower. The subsonic filter is a bit better than the Alpine, but for overall performance, they are both good choices.
Consider these:
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3732 $149.00 USD
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=6401 $140.00 USD
As for RCA or speaker input options, these amps have both options. Depending on the HU used, you can go either way. Better Aftermarket HU's have a sub output feature in the menu. That's a plus for finger tip control of the bass engine.
If you have a stock HU, use the speaker level input option and use the HU bass control function to dial up/down the low bass power from the amp/sub(s).
Comments?
Swez
PS I hope you have the IDQ10-D4 V.3 sub. This nets a 2 ohm load to the amp. Both amps mentioned are 2 ohm stable and deliver a solid 450 watts RMS + @ 2 ohms.
hooviemoto87 on 07/28/2008 04:07:28
Yes, I do have that subwoofer and I am running it at 2 ohms. It handles 500 RMS. I agree with what you said on the high levels. I don't see how adapting it to RCA's could make the sound quality any better. I am using the stock head unit. I ran the sub knob up to the left side glove box and used double sided tape to hide it away in there. It works well.
I have come to find out that the stock HU gets plenty loud for me. After adding the subwoofer for the bass and turning the bass on the HU down to 0 or -1, it plays very loud and the quality of the sound is great on -1. It hits every note up until the 90 Hz low pass. I'm glad the new amp will go up to 125+. I'm going to replace the speakers and be done with it I think.
I was going to go with the alpine, but now that I saw the automatic on/off feature on the Kenwood, I'm leaning that way. The reason is that I want the subwoofer to keep running when the key is out since the head unit stays on until the door is opened. Since you said they are overall pretty good, I might get the Kenwood for that extra feature.
By the way, that IDQ10-D4 V.3 subwoofer in a sealed box puts out just as much bass as my old 12 inch V.2 in a ported box and it only has 100 watts going to it from a BOSS amp. It's going to be crazy with a new amp. Their spec sheet says 20 dB more than the V.2's, but who knows where or how they tested it; could have been different.
As long as y'all like that Kenwood I think I'll go with it! Thanks y'all for the help on that.
swez on 07/28/2008 06:29:20
I don't see a win-lose in either amp choice here. Kenwood seems to run slighly higher wattage numbers than the Alpine, but even at +/- 50 watts, the SPL output is not an issue.
As for the amp staying on after you pull the key, as long as the HU is playing and the Remote line has power, both amps will remain on until you open the door. (Depends on the Rem tap used)
As for the IDQ V.3 having a full 20dB more SPL than the V.2 model, I would not believe that w/o knowing the specs and testing methods employed for this claim.
Yes, a vendor can change to a short coil throw, lighter cone material and a stronger motor/magnet design to take more power and have higher eff ratings, but that would only account for +6 or 8 dB more SPL. The rest is the enclosure design and cabin gain, (Transfer function) side of the equation.
Doing this is a good way to squeeze a few extra dB in a very narrow frequency range and that's what SPL subs do very well. But for a well balanced SQL system, we trade performance tweaks in SPL for wider range and smoother frequency plots at the expense of pure SPL.
Swez
hooviemoto87 on 07/30/2008 03:05:20
Interesting. It is hard to believe that about the subwoofer because every 3 dB is twice the audible sound and it doesn't sound 20 dB louder anyway.
As far as the remote wire, I tested every singe fuse with a volt meter and either it is off until the key is in the run position, or they're always on. No ACC. My local shop tells me you won't find a wire that will work with the head unit the way I want. I guess I could pull the HU and figure out which wire still has power 'till I open the door.
Question: If I were to amp the door speakers, should I tap from the speaker wire behind the speaker or from the back of the HU since there is an amplifier built into the car?
hooviemoto87 on 07/30/2008 03:12:23
One more question. In the cobalt, the speakers are labels as 8 ohms. So, will it be reliable with 4 ohm speakers and would that give me a few more watts to the new speakers?
swez on 07/30/2008 06:17:51
For the 1st issue, a +3dB gain is available when we double the power fed to the speaker, sub ect. Human hearing can detect that difference, but it's not much of an increase to our ears. To "hear" a 2x increase in audio output, it takes +9dB of power to reach that level.
If your car already has decent speaker amps and a stock HU that sounds good as is, leave it alone. If you choose to upgrade the HU to an Aftermarket version, most guys disable the internal amps and replace with Aftermarket amping and Aftermarket speakers as well. The price tag goes up considerably and may void your warranty too.
As for the Remote amp turn on feature, the Kenwood has "Auto Sense" circuits. Once it detects audio signals coming into the amp input section, it automatically turns on the amp. If you want an external remote, the best bet is to run a new Constant power line with an inline fuse & switch at the dash as the turn on for amp. This is a very low power circuit and only needs #18 gage wire and a 1A fuse at most.
Since your stock speakers are 8 ohm, the amps that drive them are optimized for 8 ohm loads. If you attempted to use 4 ohm speakers and use the factory amps to power them, chances are good that the factory amps will overheat and shut down often when dialing up the HU volume control. (4 ohm speakers are NOT recommended in this case)
FYI: Most factory amps and speakers are tuned specifically to the vehicle they are installed in. More often than not, this means filtering and phase manipulation for what the Audio Design Engineers consider to be optimal for a given vehicle. In most cases, they do a good job at matching system components for the average listener.
However, factory optimazation tricks may not be to some owners liking. If owners want more flexibilty, they often gut/disable the OEM system and start fresh with new system components. That process is expensive, time consuming and takes a good deal of patience. Do you really want to go through all that at this point in time? (Warranty issues will come up if you do this now)
Think it over carefully,
Swez
hooviemoto87 on 07/30/2008 08:14:47
very comprehensive, thank you! I really don't want to go through all that, but I am curious as to all of my options. Like I was saying before I'm just gonna put in some new speakers eventually and be done with it.
So, then, about the speakers being 8 ohm. Say someone wanted you to install some new speakers in their car and the factory system is 8 ohms. What would you do?
swez on 07/30/2008 09:59:03
Quote: "So, then, about the speakers being 8 ohm. Say someone wanted you to install some new speakers in their car and the factory system is 8 ohms. What would you do?"
I would ask for a well-defined set of reasons to swap speakers and test a known good brand of aftermarket speakers and see how things sound and how the amps react too. (Test and verify the results or changes in sound quality)
What in your mind is lacking with the stock system installed now? Try to explain the weak points as you see/hear them.
Another thing to consider, many OEM factory speakers are designed for limited frequency reproduction in the rear. (MB/MR only) Up in the front stage, they often use 2-way speakers for full range performance where it counts most.
OK, did a quick look up on this car and it has 2 basic packages according to Crutchfield. Try to figure out what package your Cobalt has. If you still have the window sticker that gives all the features and goodies for this car, it will tell you which package you have now.
1. Pioneer Upgrade package w/ or w/o Onstar
2. Standard package w/ or w/o Onstar
Cruchfield shows a nice video on how to install Component speakers in the front doors. Have a look to see what you are in for:
http://www.crutchfield.com/learn/learningcenter/car/speakers_component_video.html
http://www.crutchfield.com/learn/learningcenter/car/speakers_component_installation_options.html
In this case, I would call Crutchfield and ask their recommendation on possible speaker upgrades to consider and what issues need to be addressed before you buy anything. Call 1-800-219-3597 Just ask to speak with a mobile audio advisor and see what they suggest.
You don't have to buy from them if the price is better elsewhere. However, they do provide great customer service and custom install notes and free hardware with items they sell. (Peace of mind and above average Tech Support are worth a few extra bucks in most cases)
Finally, I don't do installs for a living like some of the others here. (Ttocs, UK and a few others) The guys in the install bay usually have a solid working knowledge of many vehicles and their experience will help a lot. (Especially if they have done this daily for 2 years or longer)
Yes, have done a maybe a dozen installs of various complexities, but I don't know every vehicle and their unique steps to a successful install.
FYI: I don't take on any major install jobs w/o considerable research and have an 80%+ confidence factor in the job turning out well. (Including my own work) The object is to satisfy the client as much as possible and get paid well for that satisfaction.
Comments?
Swez
swez on 07/30/2008 10:01:35
Oh, this car noted has 6.5" speakers up front and 6x9" ovals in the rear.
Swez
hooviemoto87 on 07/30/2008 14:41:10
yep, it's the standard w/o onstar with 6.5's and 6x9's.
Lower bass and highs come from the front speakers of which are one-way with a whizzer cone. Mids come mostly from the back. I usually turn it two notches back to get a little more mids because it makes an acoustic sound better.
I guess I'll call them up and see what they say. The biggest problem with those speakers is that the highs are not crisp and don't extend as high as I would like. Also, when there is a song with a little rumble, the highs have that pulsation at the same frequency as the rumble. Something that a two way speaker would fix and make me very happy while cleaning up highs and mid highs. I might lose a little bass from the front door, however, if I replace them, but I think the subwoofer will take care of that issue. I can throw some baffles in there to tighten up the bass in the front doors.
The guy at my local store said my best bet is to add the sub like I did and just replace the front door speakers.
Thanks for the advice, I'll call them up and see what they say.
newB on 07/30/2008 19:04:57
if your stocks are 8ohm that just means you need to get TWO new pairs of speakers, glass one into the kicks and one into the doors, then wire them in series for 8ohm per door ^_^
GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN
-Drew
swez on 07/30/2008 21:19:54
That's a good review and yes, Component type speakers in the front stage will help a lot. The whizzer cone design extends frequency range to a degree, but cannot match a good set of coaxial or 2-way Component speakers for clear, crisp highs.
Are you certain this system even has external factory amps? I can see the Pioneer package having them, but the standard OEM may not. Crutch advisors should know that answer.
Also, GM has used mix & match speakers for front and rear stage speaker balancing in the past. They often used 4-6 ohm speakers in front and 8-10 ohms speakers in the rear deck for better fade control. (Rear deck speakers tend to be louder due to location and rear window reflections) They compensate for the few extra dB in the back with higher ohmic speakers.
Most stock speakers are very efficient, but very cheap too. In mass production, these speakers cost about $5.00 in huge bulk quantities/lots. They are fine for tin-ears that only listen to AM/FM and drop in a CD's once in a while. But for the critical listener, the stock speakers are just not up to par w/ Aftermarket brands with quality speaker components and crossovers.
Swez
hooviemoto87 on 08/1/2008 03:37:16
I like the way you think Drew, hahaha.
hooviemoto87 on 08/1/2008 15:55:55
Ok, here is the verdict from the guy at crutchfield earlier today. The basic stereo that I have does not have an extra amplifier. It is all run off of the head unit. I explained to him that I installed a 10 inch subwoofer and that I was afraid of running speakers that are 4 or 2 ohms due to the speakers installed are possibly 8 ohm all the way around. However, he said that any speaker that I install will be fine. He also said that it is not a good idea to install a component system unless I use an amplifier because they really need an amp to have good sound. So, for my situation, he suggested using the stock system, and replacing all four speakers with Infinity 6022i's...
SIDE NOTE: One day I was listening to all the speakers in best buy and circuit city and those were the best coaxials that I heard in the store (the 6022i). Completely changed my negative attitude about infinity.
However, they are two ohms. But he suggested them because he claims that infinity has tested these speakers on most stock head units and have not had a problem. He also said that his buddy has a cobalt, two door though, and they did something similar, replacing the 4 speakers and there are no problems. I asked him about bringing out the mids and highs, and here's what he said on that:
He said that the smaller speaker will give me better mids and highs, so, it would be beneficial to replace all the speakers, even the 6x9's in the rear deck with the 6.5 inch 6022i. He also said to use baffles to tighten up the sound. He said since bass isn't an issue with the subwoofer, then the new 6.5's all the way around would give me what I'm looking for, which is improved clarity overall, plenty of mids and highs, and would sound good for the wide range of music I listen to. I also noticed that all of the hardware (harnesses, adapters for rear deck) are all free from crutchfield, which is convenient if I do choose to do that.
So, 6.5 inch Infinity 6022I's all the way around with foam baffles. Do you think it's a good idea? It makes sense to me...
Any comments?
Thanks! ;)
swez on 08/1/2008 23:25:29
Good feedback from Crutch here. Now we know the stock system is not amped.
One thing I would question is the use of foam baffles mentioned. They are so small, they definitely impede the midbass performance unless modified a bit with a utility blade. They make for a good moisture barrier when trimmed and won't impede MB this way. (Front door install for sure) Good plan as is in the rear deck so the sub waves don't interfere with the rear deck speakers.
As for Comps in front, agreed! Amping them is the way to go to get the most from them. (50 watts RMS min.)
The price is good for 2 pairs and these are pretty high efficiency speakers too. The 2 ohm speakers will give several dB more SPL than your stock speakers. Having the master install sheet will help guide you in this car install and the adapter harnesses make for a clean install and you can also remove them if you sell the car later and just reinstall the stock speakers.
Question: Do either of the rear seat backs flip down for extended cargo space in this Cobalt?
Swez
Ash on 08/2/2008 00:04:51
Agreed! I have experimented with foam baffles in the past and found that they generally don't work. They're just too small to get good resonance. The only way to get them to help is if you had drivers with specs that require micro enclosures. These types of drivers aren't normally made for car audio and are hard to find.
Most car audio drivers are made to play infinite baffle with different approaches for different responses. I'm quite sure Infinity designed their's to work in that way.
When concerned about interference on rear deck speakers from subs a simple, but effective technique can be used if applicable. Try installing the sub box flush with the back seat so no bass waves travel throughout the trunk. The front baffle will be angled to fit the seat and thickened enough to recess the subs so they don't hit any structure while excursing.
Similar to infinite baffle subs, but with a enclosure. In this style most, if not all, of the air pushed from the subs fire directly into the cab with minimal disturbance on the rears.
This may or may not work on cars with solid back seats. Removal of the sound insulation between the trunk and rear seat is also necessary which should be done in all trunk installs.
hooviemoto87 on 08/3/2008 09:16:04
It's not possible for me to reposition my subwoofer. I built the subwoofer box to fit in the hole by the wheel well and will defiinately not fit or stand up anywhere else. Plus it looks sweet since I carpeted it the same color as the car. It turned out well. It's somewhere in the .9 -1.0 cu. ft. range. Just roughly calculated it. 3/4" MDF, around 1/2 inch of polyfill. I spent the extra time sealing it with silicon, and I'm happy I did because it is sealed so tight that the speaker doesn't move at all if you touch it.
Check it out:
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2516/399279r10124a004dg4.jpg
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6593/399279r10103a003fq1.jpg
THE PLAN: replace front speakers with 6022i, no baffles. Replace rear speakers with 6022i, with baffles. I think this is the plan.
One question: are Kappa speakers any better for my application? I'm guessing the refrences are better because of lower power handling.
thanks guys
swez on 08/3/2008 10:33:49
Can you get a good shot of the rear speakers from inside the trunk? If the rear speakers have a cover panel of carpeted cardboard, you may not even need the foam baffles.
Nice, clean install on sub and amp here. Good work!
As for Kappa's VS Ref series, yes... the Ref series is better for non-amped systems. The Kappa Series need amped power to get the most from them.
FYI: The front speakers will be fine for now w/o the baffles. (New car) If you plan on keeping this car for over 5 years, I would suggest buying and installing the baffles, but cut away the lower section of the baffles and allow a rain shield cap over the top of these speakers. As cars age, the window seals will leak and could cause water damage to the front speakers.
Just an FYI. But you should be OK for several years w/o the foam baffles in the front doors. (Your call)
Swez
hooviemoto87 on 08/4/2008 14:17:17
those speakers are completely bare in the back. They're mounted in the metal with nothing below them.
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