Hi,
All,
I have decided to change out my care audio system.
I have installed 2 soundstream xpro12 subs, on a 800watt boss amp for now, (I'll be changing it to soundstream 1200 RMS amp soon)
I have three problem with them
1. On the back of each sub and some internet sites says that this sub is rated at 600rms each. but on the manual says 200watts RMS per Coil, 300 watts Max and 600watts peak.
2. Even with the 800 watt boss amp these speakers are too loud for the midrange I have, I'm thinking to go with 4 x 18sounds 6 inch midrange drivers, do you think these will be enough.
3. My trunk has dynamat, with these subs the whole car including the trunk vibrates like hell, what other sound damping material i could use to solve this issue.
Thanks for your support in advance.
Regards
b_bass59
Replies (6)
b_bass59 on 06/6/2008 10:23:17
I heard of this Capcell unit soundstream is out with check it out
http://soundstream.com/capsell.htm
They are not telling you the power requirements you need for them
Ash on 06/6/2008 14:25:27
The manual could be a misprint or outdated. Only problem with that is could the specs be off as well that are in the manual? I checked the manual too and it is hard to believe that a 60 oz magnet is only netting 200 watts per coil, that still seems down a bit from what the motor structure should hold.
Anyway, the amount of vibration that you are experiencing can be eliminated through more heavy dampening materials in the right places or total isolation. I personally opt for the isolation since the pressurizing of the trunk is the main culprit. When I say isolation, I mean separating the cabin from the trunk with the enclosure's front baffle like that in a infinite baffle setup.
By concentrating the front wave straight into the car's cabin, you can eliminate or a least drastically lower the amount of pressure in the trunk. This viable option is the least used way of lowering the vibrations and is quite simple if you have the room to do it. If not, you will have to tediously track down each source of noise while the system is playing and treat accordingly. This can amount to more dynamat, denser treatments, and/or even stuffing rags into a crevice to eliminate the touching of panels that are the noise source.
As far as the capcell, it seems promising, but depending on the actual load on your electrics you might not need it. The biggest upgrade you could do is wiring, battery, and alternator if needed. I am not familiar with the capcell's technology and cannot say wether it works or not. However, 800 watts isn't a whole lot of power to warrant extreme measures unless you will have other electrical loads to add. Just because the amp is ratedd to do it doesn't mean that your listening habits will draw the full current.....
Do you have a tally of the rest of your system and a link to the midrangesyou have posted above?
swez on 06/6/2008 14:50:04
Bat/Caps are not new. They too have been on the market for a few years now. To a degree, they have merit, but I have yet to read of any testing in a real world sense on how they may help Mega-watt bass installs.
These are often called "Surge Caps" and that's what they do. They offer stored electrical energy for short bursts of time and of very short durations. After a surge demand has passed, the cap charges back up to its potential, but to charge it, demands more power from the source that charges the cap. (ALT/BAT)
That's where the problems come in. If a given electrical system is rated at say 90A's current at full output and the voltage is fixed at 14.? volts, that's just under 1300 watts at full output. (That's at about 2300 RPM)
The other side of the equation is how much the battery can help when the system load exceeds capacity. A strong BAT can offer additional energy for a longer duration of time, but then it also becomes a load and needs power to recharge back to the original state. (The ALT has to do that and also feed other devices too)
See how this vicious cycle works? It's a constant strain on the electrical system when users don't match the power supply to the demand of the entire systems needs. Most stock electrical systems in a given vehicle have about 30-40% extra capacity for add ons. But when a guy wants to run a Mega-watt amp system, there's only one option... beef up the power supply.
Swez
b_bass59 on 06/7/2008 14:36:10
All,
I add it up, the total power I'm thinking to run is 1800watts rms,
1 1000 rms soundstream amp for bass
1 600 rms soundstream amp for mids
and i am thing about a 200rms amp for highs
About 150 amps consumption at full power.
On the speakers, I wrote an email on to soundstream asking for the real rms rating of the speaker ,and also what amp I could use for them. I think Monday I'll get a responce.
Thanks for your help
Regards
swez on 06/10/2008 03:23:05
Think again Bass. These amps are rated in output values. The power consumption and efficiencies will vary depending on the amplifier class used.
Example:
Class A/B amps are ~ 60% eff.
Class D amps are ~ 80% eff.
This means adding up all the fuses on each amp and then add another 50-60 A's of current for the car needs to determine the proper power supply to feed everything fully.
As for the tweeters, consider high eff tweets that can match the SPL needs of the mids. You can get by very well with 50-75 watts RMS per channel if the tweeters are above 90 dB SPL @ 2.83 volts. (Ideally, they'll be more like 93-95 dB) That will save a lot on amping power needs when Bi-amping the tweets.
Basically, each time we double the RMS power to a speaker, we get a +3dB bump in output. The more efficient the driver we choose, the less power it needs to reach the desired SPL target desired.
Here's a chart to help:
Both columes assume 2.83 volts as referance! (2 watts)
Tweet A is 90 db eff: Tweet B is 95 dB eff.
2 watts = 90 dB SPL 2 watts = 95dB SPL
4 watts = 93 dB SPL 4 watts = 98 dB SPL
8 watts = 96 dB SPL 8 watts = 101 dB SPL
16 watts = 99 dB SPL 16 watts = 104 dB SPL
32 watts = 103 dB SPL 32 watts = 107 dB SPL
64 watts = 106 dB SPL 64 watts = 110 dB SPL
128 watts = 109 dB of SPL 128 watts = 113 dB SPL
As you can see, this is a linear progression. In my own experience, we find 105 - 108 dB from the mids/tweets are more than the human ear can tolerate for very long. (A few minutes at that level sends me out the door) Live concerts are generally under 120 dB of SPL at the stage and SPL will drop as we move further away from the main stage speakers.
Keep that in mind as you design this system. Sustained audio input above 110 dB is detrimental to our hearing. OSHA and Audiologist consider 100 dB detrimental to hearing under 10 minutes of exposure w/o hearing protection.
Be smart and consider the long-term hearing loss effects as you design this system. Ever wonder why drummers wear headphones as they play? It's partly to hear the rest of the band and stay in sync. The other reason is hearing protection. Cymbal crashes are very hard on the drummer and those close enough to the drummer are at risk of permanent hearing impairment too. As a former Bass player, I too suffer from some hearing loss by close proximity to the drummer.
The low bass stuff did not bother me near as much as cymbal crashes
as I was only a few meters away from the drummer. Don't make that mistake as you design your new system, or you and others will pay for it later in life. i was not so smart... but you can be.
Swez
b_bass59 on 06/21/2008 13:16:44
Hi
Guys
I got a reply from soundstream FYI
Email bellow
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to our acoustic engineer, the RMS rating is 600 watts for the 12. He also recommends a 2.25 cuft enclosure with one 4” round port that is 11.75 inches long…
You will not need to upgrade your alternator for the CapCell. They are actually engineered to place less stress on an alternator than a conventional battery…
Brandon Meyer
Technical Support
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All,
I have decided to change out my care audio system.
I have installed 2 soundstream xpro12 subs, on a 800watt boss amp for now, (I'll be changing it to soundstream 1200 RMS amp soon)
I have three problem with them
1. On the back of each sub and some internet sites says that this sub is rated at 600rms each. but on the manual says 200watts RMS per Coil, 300 watts Max and 600watts peak.
2. Even with the 800 watt boss amp these speakers are too loud for the midrange I have, I'm thinking to go with 4 x 18sounds 6 inch midrange drivers, do you think these will be enough.
3. My trunk has dynamat, with these subs the whole car including the trunk vibrates like hell, what other sound damping material i could use to solve this issue.
Thanks for your support in advance.
Regards
b_bass59
Replies (6)
b_bass59 on 06/6/2008 10:23:17
I heard of this Capcell unit soundstream is out with check it out
http://soundstream.com/capsell.htm
They are not telling you the power requirements you need for them
Ash on 06/6/2008 14:25:27
The manual could be a misprint or outdated. Only problem with that is could the specs be off as well that are in the manual? I checked the manual too and it is hard to believe that a 60 oz magnet is only netting 200 watts per coil, that still seems down a bit from what the motor structure should hold.
Anyway, the amount of vibration that you are experiencing can be eliminated through more heavy dampening materials in the right places or total isolation. I personally opt for the isolation since the pressurizing of the trunk is the main culprit. When I say isolation, I mean separating the cabin from the trunk with the enclosure's front baffle like that in a infinite baffle setup.
By concentrating the front wave straight into the car's cabin, you can eliminate or a least drastically lower the amount of pressure in the trunk. This viable option is the least used way of lowering the vibrations and is quite simple if you have the room to do it. If not, you will have to tediously track down each source of noise while the system is playing and treat accordingly. This can amount to more dynamat, denser treatments, and/or even stuffing rags into a crevice to eliminate the touching of panels that are the noise source.
As far as the capcell, it seems promising, but depending on the actual load on your electrics you might not need it. The biggest upgrade you could do is wiring, battery, and alternator if needed. I am not familiar with the capcell's technology and cannot say wether it works or not. However, 800 watts isn't a whole lot of power to warrant extreme measures unless you will have other electrical loads to add. Just because the amp is ratedd to do it doesn't mean that your listening habits will draw the full current.....
Do you have a tally of the rest of your system and a link to the midrangesyou have posted above?
swez on 06/6/2008 14:50:04
Bat/Caps are not new. They too have been on the market for a few years now. To a degree, they have merit, but I have yet to read of any testing in a real world sense on how they may help Mega-watt bass installs.
These are often called "Surge Caps" and that's what they do. They offer stored electrical energy for short bursts of time and of very short durations. After a surge demand has passed, the cap charges back up to its potential, but to charge it, demands more power from the source that charges the cap. (ALT/BAT)
That's where the problems come in. If a given electrical system is rated at say 90A's current at full output and the voltage is fixed at 14.? volts, that's just under 1300 watts at full output. (That's at about 2300 RPM)
The other side of the equation is how much the battery can help when the system load exceeds capacity. A strong BAT can offer additional energy for a longer duration of time, but then it also becomes a load and needs power to recharge back to the original state. (The ALT has to do that and also feed other devices too)
See how this vicious cycle works? It's a constant strain on the electrical system when users don't match the power supply to the demand of the entire systems needs. Most stock electrical systems in a given vehicle have about 30-40% extra capacity for add ons. But when a guy wants to run a Mega-watt amp system, there's only one option... beef up the power supply.
Swez
b_bass59 on 06/7/2008 14:36:10
All,
I add it up, the total power I'm thinking to run is 1800watts rms,
1 1000 rms soundstream amp for bass
1 600 rms soundstream amp for mids
and i am thing about a 200rms amp for highs
About 150 amps consumption at full power.
On the speakers, I wrote an email on to soundstream asking for the real rms rating of the speaker ,and also what amp I could use for them. I think Monday I'll get a responce.
Thanks for your help
Regards
swez on 06/10/2008 03:23:05
Think again Bass. These amps are rated in output values. The power consumption and efficiencies will vary depending on the amplifier class used.
Example:
Class A/B amps are ~ 60% eff.
Class D amps are ~ 80% eff.
This means adding up all the fuses on each amp and then add another 50-60 A's of current for the car needs to determine the proper power supply to feed everything fully.
As for the tweeters, consider high eff tweets that can match the SPL needs of the mids. You can get by very well with 50-75 watts RMS per channel if the tweeters are above 90 dB SPL @ 2.83 volts. (Ideally, they'll be more like 93-95 dB) That will save a lot on amping power needs when Bi-amping the tweets.
Basically, each time we double the RMS power to a speaker, we get a +3dB bump in output. The more efficient the driver we choose, the less power it needs to reach the desired SPL target desired.
Here's a chart to help:
Both columes assume 2.83 volts as referance! (2 watts)
Tweet A is 90 db eff: Tweet B is 95 dB eff.
2 watts = 90 dB SPL 2 watts = 95dB SPL
4 watts = 93 dB SPL 4 watts = 98 dB SPL
8 watts = 96 dB SPL 8 watts = 101 dB SPL
16 watts = 99 dB SPL 16 watts = 104 dB SPL
32 watts = 103 dB SPL 32 watts = 107 dB SPL
64 watts = 106 dB SPL 64 watts = 110 dB SPL
128 watts = 109 dB of SPL 128 watts = 113 dB SPL
As you can see, this is a linear progression. In my own experience, we find 105 - 108 dB from the mids/tweets are more than the human ear can tolerate for very long. (A few minutes at that level sends me out the door) Live concerts are generally under 120 dB of SPL at the stage and SPL will drop as we move further away from the main stage speakers.
Keep that in mind as you design this system. Sustained audio input above 110 dB is detrimental to our hearing. OSHA and Audiologist consider 100 dB detrimental to hearing under 10 minutes of exposure w/o hearing protection.
Be smart and consider the long-term hearing loss effects as you design this system. Ever wonder why drummers wear headphones as they play? It's partly to hear the rest of the band and stay in sync. The other reason is hearing protection. Cymbal crashes are very hard on the drummer and those close enough to the drummer are at risk of permanent hearing impairment too. As a former Bass player, I too suffer from some hearing loss by close proximity to the drummer.
The low bass stuff did not bother me near as much as cymbal crashes
as I was only a few meters away from the drummer. Don't make that mistake as you design your new system, or you and others will pay for it later in life. i was not so smart... but you can be.
Swez
b_bass59 on 06/21/2008 13:16:44
Hi
Guys
I got a reply from soundstream FYI
Email bellow
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to our acoustic engineer, the RMS rating is 600 watts for the 12. He also recommends a 2.25 cuft enclosure with one 4” round port that is 11.75 inches long…
You will not need to upgrade your alternator for the CapCell. They are actually engineered to place less stress on an alternator than a conventional battery…
Brandon Meyer
Technical Support
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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