Been doing some scavaging lately on the net as well as trying to get rid of a few things that I've accumalated over the years of playing.
While brainstorming on how to take my system to the next level, I found some items of value that would be handy in simplicity, cost and stealth.
My current system consists of a pretty much standard mp3/wma Pioneer cd player along, 2 amps (mids/highs & bass), and a AC DQX. Pretty good stuff, but I'm still missing the advantage of time alignment.
What I'm looking at to replace all this is the Alpine IDA-X200 along with the KTX-H100 & PXA-H100 Imprint module. Sounds like a bit of expensive equipment I know, but when you figure up the cost and simplicity it quite hard to beat. Especially when you figure in a good HU along with even a used DQX. You could pay more or close to the same, but with less features.
This can open up doors to a simple scale down with even better quality sound. Only downfall is the lack of a subsonic filter on the Alpine setup which isn't much to sweat since I normally use sealed and a amp with one could be used if needed.
As far as the cd-less HU, I gave it much thought and believe the tradeoffs are worth it. Less clutter and fret over scratched & heat warped cd's, USB memory should be better with space as higher gigs are getting cheaper and they are reusable as like cd/rw's. I back up all my cd's on my computer's hard drive for extra back up anyway so the originals are stored away. This helps keeps from damaging the originals in the harsh auto environment.
As far as cost, I've got enough invested in spare gear and some in the truck that won't be needed anymore to more than cover the cost of the switch. Could take some time to move the stuff, but I can wait as I think it will be woth it.
Opinions anyone? Also didn't some one here already use the Alpine's Impint? Can't recall exactly who, but could have sworn I remember something about that a while back. How about a link to that or a review.....
Replies (27)
swez on 06/1/2008 11:01:56
Time alignment issues and cancellations are more critical in larger vehicles/venues. This is mid-sized SUV and it seems that the LF/RF are maybe a 2.5 foot differnetial. In time alignments, we are looking at here are micro-seconds of delay. Is that enough to justify the added expense?
If one considers rear fill alignments, the distance is greater and worth calculating cost/benefits to change out the older HU. Only you can gage the benefits and if one makes the swap, we often have ways to rationalize the net results. (Hey, I just changed the oil, spark plugs, put in a new fuel fiter washed the truck... it seems to have done wonders, but has it really?) Often times, maybe little or no change at all.
On the other hand, if you have a home for the Pioneer HU and it's not a financial burden to upgrade to a new HU, why not? If you like the new features and see value in having the newer HU, well... pull the trigger and see how the new features suit your tastes.
Swez
PS I have no comment on the "Alpine Imprint" features mentioned. But we do know Pioneer is solid, but the lower priced models lack in some real ways. I would not trust the average review(er) to help you on this matter. Most know very little and since they bought XYZ, it's often the best on the planet. Personal bias is the order of the day and many reviews are not all that reliable. "I bought this and it's a big step up"? Oh really... based on what objective and verifiable ways?
Ash on 06/1/2008 14:03:40
True... Don't know if it's worth it, but there is some inherent flaws that I'm not totally satisfied with in my current setup.
I could get better imaging with placing the top end down in the kicks, but real estate is of the essence with size 14 stompers.
I'm wanting to go all Dayton drivers and simplify things a bit. Right now I have the 7" 4 ohm Reference series in the doors alone. Mated with the HO 10" in back, it's a pretty good combo. However, these midbasses shine better in a 2-way rather than it's limited pass band in a 3-way. Limiting it's pass band doesn't allow them to perform. I tried shifting the crossover points but then blending with the mids and tweets goes awry.
I got my eyes on the Reference series tweets to match them as designed and since they are large format, they will be installed in the kicks. This brings the tweets closer to them for a more uniform sound. Right now the imaging is decent, but could be improved quite a bit by getting rid of the dash localed 4" Audax's. It's hard to get a good blend between them and the doors as they are totally different beasts. Too many drivers, too many phase issues to deal with is the problem right now.
Cost really isn't an issue for I have some gear that has gone unused for quite some time that needs to be gone. Some hasn't even left the box believe it or not. I actually have enough not to have to kick out any pocket dough with some to spare. A fair trade for getting rid of clutter.
As far as the HU goes, I think it's the direction I need to take as I have destroyed quite a bit of cd's. Some even irreplaceble. Using thumb drives will stop that and help clear up the clutter from having extra cd's lying around in the truck. I could equate it to having a multi disc changer that plays wma & mp3. No cd's is the downfall, but all I play is mp3's & wma's so it may not be too bad I hope.
The major in this is the fact that all functions will be controlled through the HU. No more getting up and adjusting the EQ from the back then sitting up front to hear the results. For the dash controller of the DQX, it's about 120 bucks, but still short on DSP
functions. Not even on the sub. Even if the front stage is good naturally, the sub still lacks at times. With that HU, time alignment is functionable as well as level. All through the HU. To get tha kind of capabilities would be quite costly and would need multiple units.
Kinda like the difference in having a all-in-one printer/scanner/copy/fax and having to buy each separately. I could be mistaken but it seems like a good move. Don't get me wrong, I love Pioneer, but the Alp seems more capable for less dollars. A Pioneer with some of those features runs way upwards from the allowed budget. Not to mention I found all three units elsewhere for about 250 + shipping new (gray market of course).
Victor on 06/2/2008 00:59:25
Of all my install experience, by far this one is the cleanest most user friendly and very flexible unit for tuning to my ears satisfaction.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Source/CD-Players/Premier/DEH-P800PRS?tab=B
comparing to the imprint combo from alpine u mentioned, i dont see much missing in this unit... never used the imprint personally though so cant comment more on it...
and if u want to take the "less is more" route, one cant beat the Nakamichi CD700II for a pure SQ level reproduction....
no gimmics no extra features, simple but very very effective source of SQ level reproduction
http://www.nakamichi.com/pdf/Naka%20-%20CD700II%20FA.pdf
hope that helps...
Victor...
Ash on 06/2/2008 09:00:06
Hmmm.... Those are good HU's with elite convertors. The only problem I spotted with the Pioneer is the high price tag base. Not to mention almost all accessories to make it function are extra modules that you have to pay for and the lack of being able to actively control a comp set. Older elite units offered all in one packages, but companies have gotten smarter and split up various components to make more money.
The Nak simply is a high quality plain deck. Good sound no doubt, but none of the features I'm looking for.
What you must understand is that even though I have a very high quality eq/x-over, it cannot interface well with other components as there are only 2 available inputs. So separate channel manipulation is at a minimum without additional components afterwards. Even with a deck that can do it, I still can only feed the DQX with a single pair which voids all else afer the fact.
Here's my projected situation at best:
Actively crossed 2-way front stage & sub
4 & 2/1 channel amps with defeatable x-overs
Head unit with full signal manipulation for simplicity
Equalizer with DSP (built into HU if possible)
(Optional) Rear mids passively bandpassed powered by HU
USB format for ease of storage (amount & space savings)
One thing that I have found that is most often subs are over rated in use. That is they can easily over bearing when it comes to staging and making the bass appear to come from the front. Of course we all want depth & impact, but too much and it is very easy to tell they are there. This seems especially true in hatches and suv's where the open area allows some of the sub's nonlinearities come through.
Almost the only way to make this up is with a good solid front stage and sound manipulation, for optimal placement isn't always obtainable. Here the sub(s) can be turned down enough to actually blend with the front, but still have good overall volume. Some additional processing can help fine tuning to make all drivers become one.
True Swez, that it shouldn't matter in a smaller cabin, but the fact remains that it does even at minimal levels. Sometimes the capability to alter the signal path lengths no matter how small can make a big difference in the end, especially to a trained ear. The total lengths isn't that great but the difference between the two are IMO. I'll take a measurement to see.
The DQX is a great unit, but isn't entirely complete by not having phase or time alignment for any channel, not even the sub..... Haven't really seen it on any of their products now that I think about it..... THINK I must admit though it is not for anyone. It is a very complex unit being a 30 band with additional parametrics.
With all being said, the major issue here is how to do all this at minimal cost with efficiency? Seeing that I already have some quite costly gear, is it possible that it is the wrong gear? Can a HU with DSP be able to work even with only using two preouts? If so, then maybe just a deck change would be in order.
If you got any ideas on how to improve what I currently have, then let me know.
ttocs on 06/2/2008 11:35:19
I think the rf 360.2 does what you need although I admitedly got overwelmed with all the paragraphs above to read them all....... I had looked at the alpine pxa as well until the 360 came out. It should do everything you need and the idea of doing it with out taking up any space on my dash is what turns me on. Tuning it via bluetooth pda doesn't get much cooler.
Ash on 06/2/2008 12:47:34
Now that's one bad mutha! With just the separate eq for each channel makes me drool. Rockford really out did themselves on that unit and will take a lot of dough to comprise a list of components that would compete. The price tag on that one shows as well.
Unfortunately I don't have a PDA. I do have a laptop, but it's older and definitely doesn't have bluetooth. Not sure what I could do about that. Spotted a few on shme-bay for a lot less.
I don't know, but I think it's out of my league....
By the way, what does one do with a PDA besides make phone calls? Never even bothered to look at one, though I've heard them mentioned before.
newB on 06/2/2008 15:23:44
the 360.2 is orgasmic.
i got a demo in Steve Meade's Tahoe and Caddy and when he showed me the features of the 360.2 my jaw dropped.
8=====D~~ x5,000
-Drew
swez on 06/2/2008 16:12:09
One thing about AC's DQX, it has a lot of EQ power, but it seems more like a "set and forget" type signal processor. In a pure SQ install, this tool helps flatten out the response curves inside the cabin. (Helps leveling peak and valley issues of the vehicle and speakers used) It would seem to me that pink noise and an RTA would be the proper setup tools to get the flattest response curve possible as a baseline.
Beyond that, the HU EQ needs to have enough features/functions to change things on the fly. Since it only has 2 inputs, there will be limits on what you might get with DSP add-ons.
As for the time alignments, if I recall rightly, this SUV has 3.5" dash mounted front stage speakers and no stock front door speakers. At best, it would seem more like front stage fill up on the dash/windshield. If one added door speakers, alignment issues would be a tough go due to the phase alignments and distance between dash and door speakers. Is that what is plaguing you now? (Am betting it is) Here, door mounted MB and tweets should help, but you may want to delete or attenuate the dash speakers and adjust time alignments for the best possible results.
In the rear doors, there are cutouts for 5.25" speakers on the 4 door model. The stock locations are low on the door and they fire right at each other. That's another cancellation/alignment issue to overcome. If they were aimed off axis from each other, that might help a lot.
Finally, I could not agree more about using too much bass energy from high SPL sub(s) in the cargo area being a problem for SQL guys. Yes, we'd like that low thump presents when desired, but not to overpower the rest of the system at large. A pure Basshead might like that approach, but not an SQL guys cup-o-tea.
What say you?
Swez
Victor on 06/2/2008 20:22:49
Hey ash...
how about you list your entire setup here, some feedback on the acoustical environment of your car, sound damping, configuration of the equipments, placement and orientation of speakers and other details of your complete install.
i feel there's something else that can be altered to give you better results than an expensive electronic unit.
Imaging doesn't seem to be a problem , its Staging that is probably lacking.
Channel separation, equalization or time alignment are not the major issues here, speaker placement, orientation, seem to be more of a problem you are facing.
frequency modulation due to interferences created by different speakers also seem to be one of the many unwanted characteristics of your system.
There's something that is leading me to believe that you are a SQ guy and surely need to go the "less is more" way.
guess you have really confused your music system by adding, many, as well as varied components.
comments...???
Victor...
Ash on 06/3/2008 14:00:31
At the helm right now is a flip down Pioneer DEH4500MP?? Basic pioneer features besides wma/mp3. Standard parametric EZ EQ setup. A decent headunit with decent sound and that's about it.
From there:
Audio Control DQX
US Acoustics USB-4065
JBL BP 1200 or US Acoustics USB-2150
Driver wise the dash holds some Audax 4" mids coupled with a pair of Dayton neo soft domes in the sail panels. Passives were custom built by me with a -6db octave on the mids and -12db on the tweets. The set is actively high passed @ 24db around 260hz.
In the doors which were customized to fit as there wasn't any stock holes for placement is a pair of 7" Dayton Reference series ran infinite baffle. These are actively bandpassed at 70hz & 260hz @ 24db octave.
For sub is a single 10" HO Dayton Reference in a .65 Qtc sealed enclosure. Low passed at 70hz with 24db octave as well.
The DQX is very complex piece of gear to try to explain. I would suggest reading up on it instead of me trying to write up all it's capabilities. Almost includes everything except any kind of phase or time alignment that would make it complete. It's main down fall is that the only channels that can get separate eq-ing is left to right. All outputs (high, mid, low) will see the same effect if it's within the passband. Not bad if the system is kept simple and proper placement is used, but not to helpful with complex setups. Also it's subsonic filter is non- defeatable, although it can be taken down to 15hz which is pretty much like turning it off. Still no issues there.
Overall the system sounds dang good for what I have in it. All ranges are covered pretty well. The clarity is great even at higher volumes. The response is fairly smooth without any manipulation from the eq. I mostly dialed in the gains and x-over for the best blend that keeps any particular driver from peaking and over riding each other. From there minor (-1 to -2db) adjustments around 60hz and 2500hz to tighten up bass and a small bit of shrill.
As far as staging, the music presents itself up high on the dash of course with the mid/hi comp placement. Yet I can hear on certain songs the separation between the doors and dash like Swez states. I've always known that all would have to moved to the same area to solve that one.
The doors is pretty good although there are some small rattles at high volumes with certain notes. Got to track them down even though they have been dampened with Fatmat. Other than that, good tight midbass with a solid snap. The snap isn't overbearing, dry or boomy. The Daytons are some very well behaved drivers that can easily handle a bit wider range on the upper end to make a good 2-way. The best that I've had so far.....
The 10" HO is a superb SQ driver. It's hard to believe at times it's only a single sub back there. Very smooth sounding with a good mix between depth and tightness. The Dayton has a good deep punch that's easy to blend with midbass drivers. It's tightness is pretty tame enough not to over ride it's lower frequency range so that its lower octaves are heard quite well. If I damaged this sub, I would go right back and get another!
Right now from the looks, it would be safe to say I'm probably going to swing with the Dayton Reference tweets to finish off the front revamp and get the dash comps out. I may re add the neo tweets up on the pillars, but they would have to attenuated way down so as not to detract. That would be after a good audition to see if they are even needed.
Victor on 06/3/2008 16:30:37
Try doing the following, and listen to your system for a day or 2 with different type of music and revert back with your comments.
you have used 24db/octave Xover slopes for active filtering... set all these Xover slopes at 12db/octave.
first try doing this with all the Eq-lvls set the way they are right now. ( HU as well as DQX.)
then set them all flat and audition..
Then start tuning your system all over again. all with 12db/octave Xover slopes.
while tuning and eqing ur system. keep the HU eq all set flat or all at -1, loudness and other circuits off, and just use the DQX to fine tune.
A newer HU with better D/A convertors will definitely help you.
For speaker placement and orientation it would be great if you can take some pictures and post it on some free hosting site.
Victor...
PS: what is the Xover point for the comps ?, should be somewhere around 3.2Khz....
SQLThump on 06/3/2008 17:31:45
A question of my own about imaging and staging........
What could cause a pair of comps to sound real low in the car in contrast to where they are acutally located? My Buick has 5.25 infinity comps, MR mounted in the stock location for 4x6, and tweeters less than an inch away in the bottom of the A pillar. The tweeters are aimed slightly to hit the right ear of the listener on the opposite seat than the side each tweet is in. There is no rear stage
at all.
I have only had this happen with one track, "War Pigs" by Black Sabbath. When listening, the set on the left appears in the same location as mounted, but the right set appears extremely low, like mounted in the bottom rear corner of the door, or under the seat.
Kind of puzzling, but also kind of cool sounding. Not a problem at all, but definitely a trip that only one song in my whole library does this.
ttocs on 06/4/2008 03:41:40
that sounds like a phasing issue to me. I know I know I know that all the connections are perfect and that can't be it but I would start double and triple checking them to see if you have one speaker backwards. Phase issues with componants are hard to diagnose by ear but turn your sub off temporarily and try using the balence left and right to see if your bass increases or decreases when doing this.
as for th staging issues 2 er 3 posts up I would attribute these problems with the sail mounted tweets that you mentioned. I have stock locations for a 2.5 tweeter myself that I am not using for anything but a future hands-free bluetooth setup. Sail panels are great to try and help add some seperation but as you have found that seperation can be a bit extreme since the drivers side tweeter is 2x as close to your ear as any other speaker, while the passenger side is not much further away from the original speaker.
I was also a little confused why you would x-over a 7 inch speaker at 70 hz. I would probably run that a little lower(50 hz) or adjust the x-over the way vic mentioned. I like to have a little bit of a bleed-over bettween the freqs to allow for them to blend a little better and help get some bass up front. Now this could cause some more door rattles so I an not sure that I would keep it, but I would try it.
I am willing to bet that if you moved your tweets, did some adjusting to your x-overs that you would not be concerned with tima allignment for a couple more weeks....
Ash on 06/4/2008 08:11:58
Agreed with the tweet location ttocs! I have planned a long time ago to move the comps down in the kicks. Only problem is there isn't much room with the narrow cabin and long feet. I figured I have room for at most a large format tweeter like the RS. This would allow a lower x-over point to help out with upper vocals a bit.
I tried the Dayton 7" at various frequencies and found 70hz to be the best mix between output and driver protection. Seems high, I know, but you have to figure in bleed through & cabin gain which gives a little lower response. Their xmax is 6mm so you don't want to overthrow them or muddy up the tightness either.
The DQX is 24db octave only with matching points. What ever you select for bass lo-pass is mid high hi-pass and so forth. Not bad with the steep slope. If it was 12db octave, then I could see them being staggered. This is not an option with it nor does it seem to be a problem as it can allow lower or higher points than usual without damage.
Also I listen to a wide variety of music (r&b, rock, hip hop, bass, new age jazz, etc) that is actually in my collection. This makes it hard to settle with particular eq curves and crossover points as some types will warrant a change while others do not. Taking the 7" x-over point down to say 50hz would probably destroy them and at the same time cause a lost in impact from the sub. Instead I normally adjust the Pioneer's eq to taste, but it's still limited on the frequencies needed. Overall it's a good balance in response, just the sound stage could seem a little wider with more directivity from the mids if kept. Bouncing them off the windshield helps but brings the left side too close while the right side tweet is more aimed at the driver and thus is heard more on axis.
I might try some experimental kickpanels if I get some time and spares from the junkyard to see exactly how much room I can sacrifice. I think you're right, they need to come off the dash & sails. They all need to be on the same plane as much as possible.
Ash
Victor on 06/4/2008 08:14:08
another thing...
there are many acoustic environment that behave very weirdly...if you have triple checked the wiring , and found all of them to be in phase,
try reversing the phase of speakers and audition, for ex.
reverse the phase of front left and rear right speaker
or
reverse the phase of front right and rear left.
sometimes this does help ...
for tweeter orientation,
i have noted very good staging when tweets are directed into the front windshield and allowed to spread out and reflect before it reaches your ears, this usually blends both the tweets well and makes the time delay between both tweets pretty minimal too..it also raises the frontstage to a higher level
comments...?
Victor..
keep us posted with your feedback for these very harmless experiments before you decide to buy expensive electronic equipments...
PS: all this will definitely help, although a newer HU with F/R/S outs and better D/A convertors will definitely improve atleast the sound quality,minimizing your efforts to fine tune and lesser work for the DQX processor too.
Ash on 06/4/2008 08:27:06
I still would like to switch the HU for a media one or at least one with a rear usb input. I want to put the usb cord/drive in the glove box like a changer of sort.
Victor on 06/4/2008 08:56:57
How much would you like to invest in the new HU..?
Ash on 06/4/2008 09:13:01
Not a whole lot since gas has gone ridiiculously up. Any much hihger and this vehicle won't being seeing a whole lot of use, so no sense in dropping unnecessary bucks where it's not needed.
Plus if our guesses are correct, then minimal acoustic features will be needed. Relying on proper placement, the DQX should be enough to tame the rest. It does have the ability to eq the left & right channel separately, a function which I haven't begun to use yet.
What suggestions do you have?
Victor on 06/4/2008 09:15:25
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Source/CD-Players/DEH-P600UB?tab=B
Ash on 06/4/2008 10:42:51
Out of curiousity, you seem to like HU's with D/A convertors. Do they make that much of a difference? Or is it more a less of a placebo effect. Never had one as back in the days they were only on the most expensives units.
Victor on 06/4/2008 17:18:36
to understand Digital to Analog convertors , you first need to understand Analog to Digital convertors.
To record analog signal onto a Digital media we first need ADC's which will convert Analog signal to a Digital one..
Every equipment that uses digital signal as input will need a DAC to convert it to Analog output..
See how ADC's and DAC's matter to sound reproduction.
read in detail..
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/317
Victor on 06/5/2008 20:01:03
dunno what went wrong but something just erased ASH's post...
heres what was posted before i replied...
"""ASH: That's very interesting there Vic.....
Years ago I remember I had a stand alone home 5 disc carousel made by Sony. It had a D/A converter, not sure how many bits, but it did sound very clean with a distinct warmth & realness to it. Almost as if it were live depending on the recording. Never had another like it after it finally broke down
That deck you suggested is a very nice one, but one question: When is the converter used? Is it only when the cd is played or when any digital media is played (mp3, wma via the usb/ipod as well)?""""
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply:
that is what needs to be understood very simply...
when any analog information like sound, light ( photographs, scans etc.) is recorded into digital format... it is converted using an ADC and anything that is in digital format needs DAC to convert it back into analog signal.
vinyl records are analog records as information is stored in bumps and pits and picked up by a pin that is in physical contact with the record.. here theres a lot of mechanical and physical noise that is picked up along with the desired signal... where as on CD's or Hard Disks or USBs the information is stored in form of 0's and 1's after converting the analog signal into a digital format...
Hence DAC's become very important for reproduction of any recorded analog signal converted into a digital format....
Also one needs to understand that even more than the DAC's the ADC's are very important as they are the ones which convert the analog signal into a digital one... if this is not done well then no matter how ever great DAC is used it will never be able to reproduce a signal that is not properly recorded and digitized.
hope that helps...
Victor...
Ash on 06/6/2008 07:08:20
That's understandable, but what's not is, if the 1 bit is supposed to be good then what do standard or non elite cd players use for the conversion?
Also from reading the articles you reccommended, if high resolution (higher than 128 kbps) wasn't used during ADC then what happens when using a high bit DAC like a 24 bit Burr Brown. This I would imagine would be in real world applications with people using digital media like ipods, flash drives and such.
Would the high bit DAC's reveal the loss data too much to for it to be enjoyed?
Victor on 06/7/2008 16:46:04
Sorry for this late reply...
Also wont be writing a lot, as am held up taking care of dad at the hospital, he went through a hernia repair surgery, and had complications, infection resulting into seroma....
He had to be operated again to remove the supporting mesh as his body could not accept a foreign body. He seems to be recovering slowly and needs most of my time. Hopefully he should be ok in a weeks time.
Anyways...
Here are a few references if you would care to read...
A lot of useful info on wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitrate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_bit_depth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter
Hope that helps...
Victor.
PS: Better DAC's will only ensure that every encoded/recorded detail is picked up for reproduction.
this has been a hurried reply, so was unable to write a detailed explanation....and just made a few instant searches for your reference
swez on 06/8/2008 01:21:23
Wow, the noted articles are a "bit" much for non-engineers in this given field. After reading them, the "takaway" value is low and very confusing w/o some analogies to explain the processes in ways that relate to things the average consumer can relate to.
Am familiar with compression and expansion, (Compander) systems developed by Dolby Labs in the 70's and they worked very well for thier time. Dolby was the gold standard back then and may still be viable for live and recording works, given certain limitations.
Trying to ferret out all the new terms and technical attributes in MP3 encoders is not an easy task. However, have a good collection of music that varies in bit rates from 96 - 320 bps. Below 128, there's a lot of lossiness and almost unbearable to listen to. Above 160, things sound much better and above 192, we note good transparity, decent transient response and minimal noise.
Vic gave me a number of Bollywood cuts, (HD-DVD?) that were cut at 320. These are crisp, clean, have excellent transparancy and dynamic range capabilities. Love these cuts and use them as a reference standard for critical listening on a given system. If there are flaws in the speakers and crossover limits, they show up easily with such audio material as the source.
That's all for now,
Swez
PS Victor, I hope your Dad is recovering well from his surgery and you are a good son to set aside other projects to attend to his needs. He probably changed a lot of diapers when you were a baby. Now you have the opportunity to care for his needs in any way possible. CLAP
May God restore/heal your Dad back to good health in short order and bless you for being there to help in the process. Any Doctor worth his salt will state that they cannot heal anyone. They can assist and intervene with surgery and medications, but God is the "ultimate healer". I'll be praying for you all.
Ash on 06/10/2008 07:10:41
The articles are a bit techy, but I get them for the most part...... I always understood the point that you have to have ADC & DAC when dealing with cd's and such, but still don't grasp how good can a higher bit converter make a difference. I don't doubt their worth, but what have the older Pioneer's been using? Didn't sound so bad to me...
Right now I have my eyes set on either the 5000UB or the 6000UB. They have the usb function that I'm looking for, but also I would like to have the bluetooth as well for my phone. I hate that you have to get an outboard module for that part, but it's not important at the moment. The Premier models are quite steep without any real upgrades that I can see except for an extended warranty of an extra year.... Don't get that one. The standards even boast 1 bit converters as well as the same specs all around. What's the deal with that?
Vic, I hope all is well with your father and all. We don't have to tell you that you are doing the right thing and we fully understand when duty calls. Although we love this forum, it comes second to taking care of home. The "man upstairs" sees your efforts and surely will bless you for doing so. God bless! I appreciate all your advise, so do what you gotta do.....
Victor on 06/13/2008 19:25:47
Hey,
good news first. Dad's back home and recovering well, gotta go everyday to the doc to refresh dressings.
He does feel a bit weak as was on fluids and heavy anti-biotics for a long time and had no real food, although now he does have some very light indian food and feeling stronger and healthier with time.
Thanks for all your prayers.
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While brainstorming on how to take my system to the next level, I found some items of value that would be handy in simplicity, cost and stealth.
My current system consists of a pretty much standard mp3/wma Pioneer cd player along, 2 amps (mids/highs & bass), and a AC DQX. Pretty good stuff, but I'm still missing the advantage of time alignment.
What I'm looking at to replace all this is the Alpine IDA-X200 along with the KTX-H100 & PXA-H100 Imprint module. Sounds like a bit of expensive equipment I know, but when you figure up the cost and simplicity it quite hard to beat. Especially when you figure in a good HU along with even a used DQX. You could pay more or close to the same, but with less features.
This can open up doors to a simple scale down with even better quality sound. Only downfall is the lack of a subsonic filter on the Alpine setup which isn't much to sweat since I normally use sealed and a amp with one could be used if needed.
As far as the cd-less HU, I gave it much thought and believe the tradeoffs are worth it. Less clutter and fret over scratched & heat warped cd's, USB memory should be better with space as higher gigs are getting cheaper and they are reusable as like cd/rw's. I back up all my cd's on my computer's hard drive for extra back up anyway so the originals are stored away. This helps keeps from damaging the originals in the harsh auto environment.
As far as cost, I've got enough invested in spare gear and some in the truck that won't be needed anymore to more than cover the cost of the switch. Could take some time to move the stuff, but I can wait as I think it will be woth it.
Opinions anyone? Also didn't some one here already use the Alpine's Impint? Can't recall exactly who, but could have sworn I remember something about that a while back. How about a link to that or a review.....
Replies (27)
swez on 06/1/2008 11:01:56
Time alignment issues and cancellations are more critical in larger vehicles/venues. This is mid-sized SUV and it seems that the LF/RF are maybe a 2.5 foot differnetial. In time alignments, we are looking at here are micro-seconds of delay. Is that enough to justify the added expense?
If one considers rear fill alignments, the distance is greater and worth calculating cost/benefits to change out the older HU. Only you can gage the benefits and if one makes the swap, we often have ways to rationalize the net results. (Hey, I just changed the oil, spark plugs, put in a new fuel fiter washed the truck... it seems to have done wonders, but has it really?) Often times, maybe little or no change at all.
On the other hand, if you have a home for the Pioneer HU and it's not a financial burden to upgrade to a new HU, why not? If you like the new features and see value in having the newer HU, well... pull the trigger and see how the new features suit your tastes.
Swez
PS I have no comment on the "Alpine Imprint" features mentioned. But we do know Pioneer is solid, but the lower priced models lack in some real ways. I would not trust the average review(er) to help you on this matter. Most know very little and since they bought XYZ, it's often the best on the planet. Personal bias is the order of the day and many reviews are not all that reliable. "I bought this and it's a big step up"? Oh really... based on what objective and verifiable ways?
Ash on 06/1/2008 14:03:40
True... Don't know if it's worth it, but there is some inherent flaws that I'm not totally satisfied with in my current setup.
I could get better imaging with placing the top end down in the kicks, but real estate is of the essence with size 14 stompers.
I'm wanting to go all Dayton drivers and simplify things a bit. Right now I have the 7" 4 ohm Reference series in the doors alone. Mated with the HO 10" in back, it's a pretty good combo. However, these midbasses shine better in a 2-way rather than it's limited pass band in a 3-way. Limiting it's pass band doesn't allow them to perform. I tried shifting the crossover points but then blending with the mids and tweets goes awry.
I got my eyes on the Reference series tweets to match them as designed and since they are large format, they will be installed in the kicks. This brings the tweets closer to them for a more uniform sound. Right now the imaging is decent, but could be improved quite a bit by getting rid of the dash localed 4" Audax's. It's hard to get a good blend between them and the doors as they are totally different beasts. Too many drivers, too many phase issues to deal with is the problem right now.
Cost really isn't an issue for I have some gear that has gone unused for quite some time that needs to be gone. Some hasn't even left the box believe it or not. I actually have enough not to have to kick out any pocket dough with some to spare. A fair trade for getting rid of clutter.
As far as the HU goes, I think it's the direction I need to take as I have destroyed quite a bit of cd's. Some even irreplaceble. Using thumb drives will stop that and help clear up the clutter from having extra cd's lying around in the truck. I could equate it to having a multi disc changer that plays wma & mp3. No cd's is the downfall, but all I play is mp3's & wma's so it may not be too bad I hope.
The major in this is the fact that all functions will be controlled through the HU. No more getting up and adjusting the EQ from the back then sitting up front to hear the results. For the dash controller of the DQX, it's about 120 bucks, but still short on DSP
functions. Not even on the sub. Even if the front stage is good naturally, the sub still lacks at times. With that HU, time alignment is functionable as well as level. All through the HU. To get tha kind of capabilities would be quite costly and would need multiple units.
Kinda like the difference in having a all-in-one printer/scanner/copy/fax and having to buy each separately. I could be mistaken but it seems like a good move. Don't get me wrong, I love Pioneer, but the Alp seems more capable for less dollars. A Pioneer with some of those features runs way upwards from the allowed budget. Not to mention I found all three units elsewhere for about 250 + shipping new (gray market of course).
Victor on 06/2/2008 00:59:25
Of all my install experience, by far this one is the cleanest most user friendly and very flexible unit for tuning to my ears satisfaction.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Source/CD-Players/Premier/DEH-P800PRS?tab=B
comparing to the imprint combo from alpine u mentioned, i dont see much missing in this unit... never used the imprint personally though so cant comment more on it...
and if u want to take the "less is more" route, one cant beat the Nakamichi CD700II for a pure SQ level reproduction....
no gimmics no extra features, simple but very very effective source of SQ level reproduction
http://www.nakamichi.com/pdf/Naka%20-%20CD700II%20FA.pdf
hope that helps...
Victor...
Ash on 06/2/2008 09:00:06
Hmmm.... Those are good HU's with elite convertors. The only problem I spotted with the Pioneer is the high price tag base. Not to mention almost all accessories to make it function are extra modules that you have to pay for and the lack of being able to actively control a comp set. Older elite units offered all in one packages, but companies have gotten smarter and split up various components to make more money.
The Nak simply is a high quality plain deck. Good sound no doubt, but none of the features I'm looking for.
What you must understand is that even though I have a very high quality eq/x-over, it cannot interface well with other components as there are only 2 available inputs. So separate channel manipulation is at a minimum without additional components afterwards. Even with a deck that can do it, I still can only feed the DQX with a single pair which voids all else afer the fact.
Here's my projected situation at best:
Actively crossed 2-way front stage & sub
4 & 2/1 channel amps with defeatable x-overs
Head unit with full signal manipulation for simplicity
Equalizer with DSP (built into HU if possible)
(Optional) Rear mids passively bandpassed powered by HU
USB format for ease of storage (amount & space savings)
One thing that I have found that is most often subs are over rated in use. That is they can easily over bearing when it comes to staging and making the bass appear to come from the front. Of course we all want depth & impact, but too much and it is very easy to tell they are there. This seems especially true in hatches and suv's where the open area allows some of the sub's nonlinearities come through.
Almost the only way to make this up is with a good solid front stage and sound manipulation, for optimal placement isn't always obtainable. Here the sub(s) can be turned down enough to actually blend with the front, but still have good overall volume. Some additional processing can help fine tuning to make all drivers become one.
True Swez, that it shouldn't matter in a smaller cabin, but the fact remains that it does even at minimal levels. Sometimes the capability to alter the signal path lengths no matter how small can make a big difference in the end, especially to a trained ear. The total lengths isn't that great but the difference between the two are IMO. I'll take a measurement to see.
The DQX is a great unit, but isn't entirely complete by not having phase or time alignment for any channel, not even the sub..... Haven't really seen it on any of their products now that I think about it..... THINK I must admit though it is not for anyone. It is a very complex unit being a 30 band with additional parametrics.
With all being said, the major issue here is how to do all this at minimal cost with efficiency? Seeing that I already have some quite costly gear, is it possible that it is the wrong gear? Can a HU with DSP be able to work even with only using two preouts? If so, then maybe just a deck change would be in order.
If you got any ideas on how to improve what I currently have, then let me know.
ttocs on 06/2/2008 11:35:19
I think the rf 360.2 does what you need although I admitedly got overwelmed with all the paragraphs above to read them all....... I had looked at the alpine pxa as well until the 360 came out. It should do everything you need and the idea of doing it with out taking up any space on my dash is what turns me on. Tuning it via bluetooth pda doesn't get much cooler.
Ash on 06/2/2008 12:47:34
Now that's one bad mutha! With just the separate eq for each channel makes me drool. Rockford really out did themselves on that unit and will take a lot of dough to comprise a list of components that would compete. The price tag on that one shows as well.
Unfortunately I don't have a PDA. I do have a laptop, but it's older and definitely doesn't have bluetooth. Not sure what I could do about that. Spotted a few on shme-bay for a lot less.
I don't know, but I think it's out of my league....
By the way, what does one do with a PDA besides make phone calls? Never even bothered to look at one, though I've heard them mentioned before.
newB on 06/2/2008 15:23:44
the 360.2 is orgasmic.
i got a demo in Steve Meade's Tahoe and Caddy and when he showed me the features of the 360.2 my jaw dropped.
8=====D~~ x5,000
-Drew
swez on 06/2/2008 16:12:09
One thing about AC's DQX, it has a lot of EQ power, but it seems more like a "set and forget" type signal processor. In a pure SQ install, this tool helps flatten out the response curves inside the cabin. (Helps leveling peak and valley issues of the vehicle and speakers used) It would seem to me that pink noise and an RTA would be the proper setup tools to get the flattest response curve possible as a baseline.
Beyond that, the HU EQ needs to have enough features/functions to change things on the fly. Since it only has 2 inputs, there will be limits on what you might get with DSP add-ons.
As for the time alignments, if I recall rightly, this SUV has 3.5" dash mounted front stage speakers and no stock front door speakers. At best, it would seem more like front stage fill up on the dash/windshield. If one added door speakers, alignment issues would be a tough go due to the phase alignments and distance between dash and door speakers. Is that what is plaguing you now? (Am betting it is) Here, door mounted MB and tweets should help, but you may want to delete or attenuate the dash speakers and adjust time alignments for the best possible results.
In the rear doors, there are cutouts for 5.25" speakers on the 4 door model. The stock locations are low on the door and they fire right at each other. That's another cancellation/alignment issue to overcome. If they were aimed off axis from each other, that might help a lot.
Finally, I could not agree more about using too much bass energy from high SPL sub(s) in the cargo area being a problem for SQL guys. Yes, we'd like that low thump presents when desired, but not to overpower the rest of the system at large. A pure Basshead might like that approach, but not an SQL guys cup-o-tea.
What say you?
Swez
Victor on 06/2/2008 20:22:49
Hey ash...
how about you list your entire setup here, some feedback on the acoustical environment of your car, sound damping, configuration of the equipments, placement and orientation of speakers and other details of your complete install.
i feel there's something else that can be altered to give you better results than an expensive electronic unit.
Imaging doesn't seem to be a problem , its Staging that is probably lacking.
Channel separation, equalization or time alignment are not the major issues here, speaker placement, orientation, seem to be more of a problem you are facing.
frequency modulation due to interferences created by different speakers also seem to be one of the many unwanted characteristics of your system.
There's something that is leading me to believe that you are a SQ guy and surely need to go the "less is more" way.
guess you have really confused your music system by adding, many, as well as varied components.
comments...???
Victor...
Ash on 06/3/2008 14:00:31
At the helm right now is a flip down Pioneer DEH4500MP?? Basic pioneer features besides wma/mp3. Standard parametric EZ EQ setup. A decent headunit with decent sound and that's about it.
From there:
Audio Control DQX
US Acoustics USB-4065
JBL BP 1200 or US Acoustics USB-2150
Driver wise the dash holds some Audax 4" mids coupled with a pair of Dayton neo soft domes in the sail panels. Passives were custom built by me with a -6db octave on the mids and -12db on the tweets. The set is actively high passed @ 24db around 260hz.
In the doors which were customized to fit as there wasn't any stock holes for placement is a pair of 7" Dayton Reference series ran infinite baffle. These are actively bandpassed at 70hz & 260hz @ 24db octave.
For sub is a single 10" HO Dayton Reference in a .65 Qtc sealed enclosure. Low passed at 70hz with 24db octave as well.
The DQX is very complex piece of gear to try to explain. I would suggest reading up on it instead of me trying to write up all it's capabilities. Almost includes everything except any kind of phase or time alignment that would make it complete. It's main down fall is that the only channels that can get separate eq-ing is left to right. All outputs (high, mid, low) will see the same effect if it's within the passband. Not bad if the system is kept simple and proper placement is used, but not to helpful with complex setups. Also it's subsonic filter is non- defeatable, although it can be taken down to 15hz which is pretty much like turning it off. Still no issues there.
Overall the system sounds dang good for what I have in it. All ranges are covered pretty well. The clarity is great even at higher volumes. The response is fairly smooth without any manipulation from the eq. I mostly dialed in the gains and x-over for the best blend that keeps any particular driver from peaking and over riding each other. From there minor (-1 to -2db) adjustments around 60hz and 2500hz to tighten up bass and a small bit of shrill.
As far as staging, the music presents itself up high on the dash of course with the mid/hi comp placement. Yet I can hear on certain songs the separation between the doors and dash like Swez states. I've always known that all would have to moved to the same area to solve that one.
The doors is pretty good although there are some small rattles at high volumes with certain notes. Got to track them down even though they have been dampened with Fatmat. Other than that, good tight midbass with a solid snap. The snap isn't overbearing, dry or boomy. The Daytons are some very well behaved drivers that can easily handle a bit wider range on the upper end to make a good 2-way. The best that I've had so far.....
The 10" HO is a superb SQ driver. It's hard to believe at times it's only a single sub back there. Very smooth sounding with a good mix between depth and tightness. The Dayton has a good deep punch that's easy to blend with midbass drivers. It's tightness is pretty tame enough not to over ride it's lower frequency range so that its lower octaves are heard quite well. If I damaged this sub, I would go right back and get another!
Right now from the looks, it would be safe to say I'm probably going to swing with the Dayton Reference tweets to finish off the front revamp and get the dash comps out. I may re add the neo tweets up on the pillars, but they would have to attenuated way down so as not to detract. That would be after a good audition to see if they are even needed.
Victor on 06/3/2008 16:30:37
Try doing the following, and listen to your system for a day or 2 with different type of music and revert back with your comments.
you have used 24db/octave Xover slopes for active filtering... set all these Xover slopes at 12db/octave.
first try doing this with all the Eq-lvls set the way they are right now. ( HU as well as DQX.)
then set them all flat and audition..
Then start tuning your system all over again. all with 12db/octave Xover slopes.
while tuning and eqing ur system. keep the HU eq all set flat or all at -1, loudness and other circuits off, and just use the DQX to fine tune.
A newer HU with better D/A convertors will definitely help you.
For speaker placement and orientation it would be great if you can take some pictures and post it on some free hosting site.
Victor...
PS: what is the Xover point for the comps ?, should be somewhere around 3.2Khz....
SQLThump on 06/3/2008 17:31:45
A question of my own about imaging and staging........
What could cause a pair of comps to sound real low in the car in contrast to where they are acutally located? My Buick has 5.25 infinity comps, MR mounted in the stock location for 4x6, and tweeters less than an inch away in the bottom of the A pillar. The tweeters are aimed slightly to hit the right ear of the listener on the opposite seat than the side each tweet is in. There is no rear stage
at all.
I have only had this happen with one track, "War Pigs" by Black Sabbath. When listening, the set on the left appears in the same location as mounted, but the right set appears extremely low, like mounted in the bottom rear corner of the door, or under the seat.
Kind of puzzling, but also kind of cool sounding. Not a problem at all, but definitely a trip that only one song in my whole library does this.
ttocs on 06/4/2008 03:41:40
that sounds like a phasing issue to me. I know I know I know that all the connections are perfect and that can't be it but I would start double and triple checking them to see if you have one speaker backwards. Phase issues with componants are hard to diagnose by ear but turn your sub off temporarily and try using the balence left and right to see if your bass increases or decreases when doing this.
as for th staging issues 2 er 3 posts up I would attribute these problems with the sail mounted tweets that you mentioned. I have stock locations for a 2.5 tweeter myself that I am not using for anything but a future hands-free bluetooth setup. Sail panels are great to try and help add some seperation but as you have found that seperation can be a bit extreme since the drivers side tweeter is 2x as close to your ear as any other speaker, while the passenger side is not much further away from the original speaker.
I was also a little confused why you would x-over a 7 inch speaker at 70 hz. I would probably run that a little lower(50 hz) or adjust the x-over the way vic mentioned. I like to have a little bit of a bleed-over bettween the freqs to allow for them to blend a little better and help get some bass up front. Now this could cause some more door rattles so I an not sure that I would keep it, but I would try it.
I am willing to bet that if you moved your tweets, did some adjusting to your x-overs that you would not be concerned with tima allignment for a couple more weeks....
Ash on 06/4/2008 08:11:58
Agreed with the tweet location ttocs! I have planned a long time ago to move the comps down in the kicks. Only problem is there isn't much room with the narrow cabin and long feet. I figured I have room for at most a large format tweeter like the RS. This would allow a lower x-over point to help out with upper vocals a bit.
I tried the Dayton 7" at various frequencies and found 70hz to be the best mix between output and driver protection. Seems high, I know, but you have to figure in bleed through & cabin gain which gives a little lower response. Their xmax is 6mm so you don't want to overthrow them or muddy up the tightness either.
The DQX is 24db octave only with matching points. What ever you select for bass lo-pass is mid high hi-pass and so forth. Not bad with the steep slope. If it was 12db octave, then I could see them being staggered. This is not an option with it nor does it seem to be a problem as it can allow lower or higher points than usual without damage.
Also I listen to a wide variety of music (r&b, rock, hip hop, bass, new age jazz, etc) that is actually in my collection. This makes it hard to settle with particular eq curves and crossover points as some types will warrant a change while others do not. Taking the 7" x-over point down to say 50hz would probably destroy them and at the same time cause a lost in impact from the sub. Instead I normally adjust the Pioneer's eq to taste, but it's still limited on the frequencies needed. Overall it's a good balance in response, just the sound stage could seem a little wider with more directivity from the mids if kept. Bouncing them off the windshield helps but brings the left side too close while the right side tweet is more aimed at the driver and thus is heard more on axis.
I might try some experimental kickpanels if I get some time and spares from the junkyard to see exactly how much room I can sacrifice. I think you're right, they need to come off the dash & sails. They all need to be on the same plane as much as possible.
Ash
Victor on 06/4/2008 08:14:08
another thing...
there are many acoustic environment that behave very weirdly...if you have triple checked the wiring , and found all of them to be in phase,
try reversing the phase of speakers and audition, for ex.
reverse the phase of front left and rear right speaker
or
reverse the phase of front right and rear left.
sometimes this does help ...
for tweeter orientation,
i have noted very good staging when tweets are directed into the front windshield and allowed to spread out and reflect before it reaches your ears, this usually blends both the tweets well and makes the time delay between both tweets pretty minimal too..it also raises the frontstage to a higher level
comments...?
Victor..
keep us posted with your feedback for these very harmless experiments before you decide to buy expensive electronic equipments...
PS: all this will definitely help, although a newer HU with F/R/S outs and better D/A convertors will definitely improve atleast the sound quality,minimizing your efforts to fine tune and lesser work for the DQX processor too.
Ash on 06/4/2008 08:27:06
I still would like to switch the HU for a media one or at least one with a rear usb input. I want to put the usb cord/drive in the glove box like a changer of sort.
Victor on 06/4/2008 08:56:57
How much would you like to invest in the new HU..?
Ash on 06/4/2008 09:13:01
Not a whole lot since gas has gone ridiiculously up. Any much hihger and this vehicle won't being seeing a whole lot of use, so no sense in dropping unnecessary bucks where it's not needed.
Plus if our guesses are correct, then minimal acoustic features will be needed. Relying on proper placement, the DQX should be enough to tame the rest. It does have the ability to eq the left & right channel separately, a function which I haven't begun to use yet.
What suggestions do you have?
Victor on 06/4/2008 09:15:25
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Source/CD-Players/DEH-P600UB?tab=B
Ash on 06/4/2008 10:42:51
Out of curiousity, you seem to like HU's with D/A convertors. Do they make that much of a difference? Or is it more a less of a placebo effect. Never had one as back in the days they were only on the most expensives units.
Victor on 06/4/2008 17:18:36
to understand Digital to Analog convertors , you first need to understand Analog to Digital convertors.
To record analog signal onto a Digital media we first need ADC's which will convert Analog signal to a Digital one..
Every equipment that uses digital signal as input will need a DAC to convert it to Analog output..
See how ADC's and DAC's matter to sound reproduction.
read in detail..
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/317
Victor on 06/5/2008 20:01:03
dunno what went wrong but something just erased ASH's post...
heres what was posted before i replied...
"""ASH: That's very interesting there Vic.....
Years ago I remember I had a stand alone home 5 disc carousel made by Sony. It had a D/A converter, not sure how many bits, but it did sound very clean with a distinct warmth & realness to it. Almost as if it were live depending on the recording. Never had another like it after it finally broke down
That deck you suggested is a very nice one, but one question: When is the converter used? Is it only when the cd is played or when any digital media is played (mp3, wma via the usb/ipod as well)?""""
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Reply:
that is what needs to be understood very simply...
when any analog information like sound, light ( photographs, scans etc.) is recorded into digital format... it is converted using an ADC and anything that is in digital format needs DAC to convert it back into analog signal.
vinyl records are analog records as information is stored in bumps and pits and picked up by a pin that is in physical contact with the record.. here theres a lot of mechanical and physical noise that is picked up along with the desired signal... where as on CD's or Hard Disks or USBs the information is stored in form of 0's and 1's after converting the analog signal into a digital format...
Hence DAC's become very important for reproduction of any recorded analog signal converted into a digital format....
Also one needs to understand that even more than the DAC's the ADC's are very important as they are the ones which convert the analog signal into a digital one... if this is not done well then no matter how ever great DAC is used it will never be able to reproduce a signal that is not properly recorded and digitized.
hope that helps...
Victor...
Ash on 06/6/2008 07:08:20
That's understandable, but what's not is, if the 1 bit is supposed to be good then what do standard or non elite cd players use for the conversion?
Also from reading the articles you reccommended, if high resolution (higher than 128 kbps) wasn't used during ADC then what happens when using a high bit DAC like a 24 bit Burr Brown. This I would imagine would be in real world applications with people using digital media like ipods, flash drives and such.
Would the high bit DAC's reveal the loss data too much to for it to be enjoyed?
Victor on 06/7/2008 16:46:04
Sorry for this late reply...
Also wont be writing a lot, as am held up taking care of dad at the hospital, he went through a hernia repair surgery, and had complications, infection resulting into seroma....
He had to be operated again to remove the supporting mesh as his body could not accept a foreign body. He seems to be recovering slowly and needs most of my time. Hopefully he should be ok in a weeks time.
Anyways...
Here are a few references if you would care to read...
A lot of useful info on wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitrate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_bit_depth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter
Hope that helps...
Victor.
PS: Better DAC's will only ensure that every encoded/recorded detail is picked up for reproduction.
this has been a hurried reply, so was unable to write a detailed explanation....and just made a few instant searches for your reference
swez on 06/8/2008 01:21:23
Wow, the noted articles are a "bit" much for non-engineers in this given field. After reading them, the "takaway" value is low and very confusing w/o some analogies to explain the processes in ways that relate to things the average consumer can relate to.
Am familiar with compression and expansion, (Compander) systems developed by Dolby Labs in the 70's and they worked very well for thier time. Dolby was the gold standard back then and may still be viable for live and recording works, given certain limitations.
Trying to ferret out all the new terms and technical attributes in MP3 encoders is not an easy task. However, have a good collection of music that varies in bit rates from 96 - 320 bps. Below 128, there's a lot of lossiness and almost unbearable to listen to. Above 160, things sound much better and above 192, we note good transparity, decent transient response and minimal noise.
Vic gave me a number of Bollywood cuts, (HD-DVD?) that were cut at 320. These are crisp, clean, have excellent transparancy and dynamic range capabilities. Love these cuts and use them as a reference standard for critical listening on a given system. If there are flaws in the speakers and crossover limits, they show up easily with such audio material as the source.
That's all for now,
Swez
PS Victor, I hope your Dad is recovering well from his surgery and you are a good son to set aside other projects to attend to his needs. He probably changed a lot of diapers when you were a baby. Now you have the opportunity to care for his needs in any way possible. CLAP
May God restore/heal your Dad back to good health in short order and bless you for being there to help in the process. Any Doctor worth his salt will state that they cannot heal anyone. They can assist and intervene with surgery and medications, but God is the "ultimate healer". I'll be praying for you all.
Ash on 06/10/2008 07:10:41
The articles are a bit techy, but I get them for the most part...... I always understood the point that you have to have ADC & DAC when dealing with cd's and such, but still don't grasp how good can a higher bit converter make a difference. I don't doubt their worth, but what have the older Pioneer's been using? Didn't sound so bad to me...
Right now I have my eyes set on either the 5000UB or the 6000UB. They have the usb function that I'm looking for, but also I would like to have the bluetooth as well for my phone. I hate that you have to get an outboard module for that part, but it's not important at the moment. The Premier models are quite steep without any real upgrades that I can see except for an extended warranty of an extra year.... Don't get that one. The standards even boast 1 bit converters as well as the same specs all around. What's the deal with that?
Vic, I hope all is well with your father and all. We don't have to tell you that you are doing the right thing and we fully understand when duty calls. Although we love this forum, it comes second to taking care of home. The "man upstairs" sees your efforts and surely will bless you for doing so. God bless! I appreciate all your advise, so do what you gotta do.....
Victor on 06/13/2008 19:25:47
Hey,
good news first. Dad's back home and recovering well, gotta go everyday to the doc to refresh dressings.
He does feel a bit weak as was on fluids and heavy anti-biotics for a long time and had no real food, although now he does have some very light indian food and feeling stronger and healthier with time.
Thanks for all your prayers.
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