Can anyone please give advice on installing an aftermarket system in a 95 Caddy Eldorado with a Bose/Delco system. I have replaced all the speakers and ran the wire to the from. I found a thread on another site that said that in the factor Controller Unit's harness in the dash I could find the +12v constant, +12v switch and the ground. I connected to those and there is not enough juice coming to the new stereo. If you turn the stereo up even a little there is a lot of distortion coming through the speakers and with any base hits the stereo dims. Any advice?
Replies (18)
Ash on 04/7/2008 21:32:35
Not an expert on Bose but I'm sure there is amplifier somewhere in the mix that will have to be be bypassed. Are you running a aftermarket head unit as well?
Bose is known for using odd ohmed speakers with matched amplifiers that have built in preset equalizers and/or crossovers that make them very difficult to run with anything else. Usually when upgrading, most will remove all stock components and start from scratch.
One of the top installers here should chime in and give more details so be patient.
swez on 04/8/2008 04:05:58
Think Ash is right about Bose speakers and amps. They use propritary technology to match speakers and amps. You'd have to measure the ohmic value of the stock Bose speakers to see what coil resistance might be to get the most from the amp.
Seems that ttocs had mentioned they were close to 2 ohms per speaker and amps are optimiszed for that load. Let's see if he spots this post and fills in the gaps.
Swez
diddler on 04/8/2008 15:15:54
I have replaced all the factory bose speakers with alpines. The problem is in powering the head unit. I did not have a volt meter when I installed the new HU. I borrowed one from a buddy today and am going to test the wires when I get home. I am trying to see if I can use the wires powering the stock HU controller or if I am going to have to run them from the actuall stereo which is in the trunk. Unless anyone can direct me to a better location to fine the +12v & +12v switch. I am not so worried about the ground (I'll run a direct ground of the new HU). I did (just for experimentation) hook the front bose speakers (after removing the factory amps ofcourse) just for a minute and it seemed to play well. I hope that did not damage the HU. I wasn't thinking very clearly at the time :).
swez on 04/9/2008 04:06:33
While you have the meter on hand, measure the ohmic resistance of these Bose speakers you have removed. Just used the Ohms scale and see what numbers show up when probing the speaker terminals. It would confirm a few open questions to resolve later.
Most HU amps are designed for 4 ohm loads or higher. If we run lower loads at higher power levels for a sustained time period, the HU amps will heat up the output transistors and eventually fry them. We can tell this is a problem when touching the HU for heat. Warm is OK, but if the HU face panel feels very warm to hot, problems are on the way.
Swez
diddler on 04/9/2008 15:52:48
Just read your post Swez. I will do that this evening and report later. I did, however find that in the harness that ran to the factory HU (actually just a controller for the real stereo located in the trunk) their infact is a +12v and a +12v switch. The +12v is apparently an independent feed of the main stereo, however the +12v switch is fed after the main stereo so if you disconnect the factory stereo you will loose the switch. If you leave the factory unit in the trunk connected (as you should for other reasons) you will keep the +12v switch fed. Therefore, there is no reason that I can see for you to have to run any additional wire other than new speaker wire. You can tie in to the harness in the dash and leave the factory stereo connected in the truck to prevent any computer malfunctions.
Ash on 04/9/2008 16:08:00
Did you use a kit of any sort to install the stereo?
diddler on 04/9/2008 21:31:30
Swez.....of course you cannot accurately measure impedance with a simple DMM, but it is reading .9 ohms. I would assume the impedance on these factory bose speakers must be somewhere between 1 to 2.5 ohms (give or take). I realize this is a big gap but it is enough to know that they most likely would not be safe to run off of an aftermarket HU. I have not measured nor do I think I have the equipment to measure true impedance. If you have a simple way to measure this a little more accurately please let me know and I will do so.
diddler
diddler on 04/9/2008 21:54:40
Ash......no, I ran all new speaker wire, located the +12v & +12v switch in the dash and ran a direct ground from the stereo. Everything is working great now. This weekend i will be installing the amp and woof.
swez on 04/11/2008 07:07:55
Yes, that is correct did.
A DMM will measure DC resistance of the coil only. There is an offset from the "AC Reactive Impedance" value at work here too. (~15% higher) If the DMM measured 0.9 ohms, the likely AC value would be closer to 1.2 ohms.
In many cases, most guys will add aftermarket speakers, run new speaker lines and bypass all factory amps and such. This is a little more work for the installer, but it's often cheaper in the long run to do this rather than buying expensive adapter kits and remain limited to the factory amps.
You're on the right track, CLAP
Swez
diddler on 04/11/2008 22:56:17
Thanks Swez......done with the caddy for now. I did remove all factory speakers and run new wire. Installed the amp and sub today. I will still need to run a new power wire tomorrow for the amp (the one I had on hand is not the right gauge). Other than that it is complete and I will go back to working on the system in the 4runner.
Thanks,
Diddler
swez on 04/12/2008 12:36:14
Most welcome diddler and welcome to CK too.
That is very interesting about these Bose speakers. We knew they were designed in an unusual way, but I had no idea they were so low in impedance. (~1.2 ohms per coil is very unique)
Anyway, thanks for the feedback as many here have been puzzled by how Bose does things. We have a little phrase that seems common to GM/Bose users... "Poor highs, sub-par lows... it must be Bose".
Does that statement fit your estimation of the GM/Bose package in this Caddy?
Comments?
Swez
Ash on 04/12/2008 15:06:02
I can't personally account for all Bose designs, but the vast amount that I have encountered (home, auto) use drivers of the cheapest quality. The few that I have tested were nothing out of the norm parameter wise. Nothing spectacular in materials either.
If you check out P.E. clearances as much as I do or taken some Bose boxes apart you will see some evidence of such. Cheap paper cones, cloth surrounds, standard or substandard stamped steel frames, and inferior motor structures.
What Bose does have that you have to respect is their vast knowledge of acoustics, box design, marketing, and the realization that there's quite a good amount of consumers that don't know good sound. They do what other lesser companies won't do. They actually make some cheap speakers sound decent. Usually this is done with extensive amplifier, eq circuitry, and complex enclosures. Dipole, bipole, various bandpass, horn loaded, etc.
The consumers that buy into them are not entirely keyed in on finely detailed music like elitists and those who know sound like some here. This allows them to build low overhead designs that will satisfy most that affiliate certain names with high quality. Yet, if you notice, the elitists & diyers won't buy or even possibly own any of Bose. This is because they know they could sound way better and for far less in consumer cost.
Their designs is nothing that anyone else can't do if they aren't afraid to think out of the box and actually go for it. Do some acoustic testing and a little bit of trial & error and better results could be had in your own garage. Most of Bose designs are actually ordinary and have been around for a long before them. Bose is smart in patenting designs that are normal to the diy crowd which is kinda unfair. Then they are sold for extreme prices to make people think they are getting the best.
Have to admit, they're pretty slick, but they can't "pull the wool over everybody's eyes".
Ash,
diddler on 04/12/2008 17:37:09
The factory sound in the caddy was fair at best. I agree with ash, they did a lot with very little. I was surprised at how cheaply the speakers appeared to have been made. It didn't sound great but it also did not sound like it looks. The caddy is my wifes car and she was satisfied with the gm/bose setup but I couldn't live with it. I didn't go all out on it. I simply replaced the deck with a pioneer I had laying around, the speakers with some alpine type s 6x9's in the back and 5x7's in the front and found an old school punch 250 I had in the closet an hooked up an alpine type r 12. All spares i had around so only spent $50 on materials (wires, mounts, mdf etc.). She is now extremely surprised at how much better her system sounds.
diddler
Ash on 04/12/2008 18:30:27
It's amazing how some will settle for less. My mate is the same. I install her some nice gear, tweak it, and am satisfied with the outcome.
Her, on the other hand claims that she can't tell the difference. Makes me want to rip it all out and just throw some crappy stuff in there to see what she will say then.... MAD If wasn't for me driving her vehicles at times, I wouldn't change anything from factory. It's just too hard for me to tolerate bad sounding systems even for short drives.
There's a lesson to be learned from Bose however:
Which is more important, equipment or implentation?
Could using only the "finest" gear be somewhat overrated?
Should more be spent on processing & acoustical manipulation
rather than on elaborate drivers?
How cheap can a simple, but satisfying system actually be
built?
In my use of raw drivers on my personal setups, I have found the total price to be considerably less for the quality of the items used when compared to prepackaged car audio. That aspect is the same of home audio diy. This is not to say that all car brands are inferior, but I have noticed that some of the so called better stuff isn't really better.
Minor things like knowing driver parameters of tweets & mids can make a world of a difference when deciding their use and trying to get a good response from your particular setup. It is unbelievable the amount of car audio that won't even give it. Most only state subwoofer specs, and generalized plots. Even when the xmax of midrange or midbass drivers are compared, you will be amazed how small most car audio gear is (except for the elite brands). Why is that?
The market has taken a bad turn and likewise quality is suffering. When you do find quality, the price is often far higher than what it should be. There is gear out there that almost requires you to take out a loan for. But did they really invest that much or is it just another Bose type of hype? THINK
There is often a steep price to pay for convienence and sometimes it's not just money......
swez on 04/13/2008 10:21:13
I would tend to agree with you Ash. Some company's do a lot of marketing/advertising to tout their wares and that will drive up the cost of a product considerably too.
Bose is definitely in that mindset and even though they do use less than superior grade speakers, people buy into the "Snob Appeal" because they think it must be the best at $$$ - $,$$$ a pop.
Take for example the table top version "Wave Music " system. This is an absolute hoot. Who is going to spend $350 - 1,300.00 on a table top system? Mr. Gadget that shops at Sharper Image would as he has more cash than brains available to toss around.
http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/home_entertainment/help_choose/recommend/index.jsp&ck=0
Give me a break, (End psudo-rant)
Swez COFFEE
Ash on 04/13/2008 12:15:41
Agreed! I actually listened to one at a Bose outlet. Should have seen the look on their eyes when I told them I was not impressed at all... There was so much hype in the ads that I just had to see.
swez on 04/13/2008 18:04:48
Would this statement fit your listening experience?
"Poor highs and weak lows... it must be Bose"?
Also, note they tout a 1/2 octave lower bass response in the newer models. OK, if F3 is say 60 Hz., that would make the new models play down to about 45 Hz. But if that's -6dB down or more @ 45 Hz., who will notice the difference.
I looked at Crutchfield's site for more details on the Bose Wave System and they no longer carry the line. However, they do offer the new Polk I-Sonic and it's packed with several nice features and add on potential. Here's a review of both from Loren Barstow:
http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/reviews/20070703/bose-wave-radio-polk-isonic.html
Enjoy the read as he was pretty kind to both units, but also pointed out the differences as well.
Swez
Ash on 04/13/2008 19:35:42
Granted the sound was cleaner than a boombox, but there's times when you actually want it to be punchy & meaty. If a add-on subwoofer were to be implented, it might stand a chance. I would say it's more geared towards soft music at easy listening levels in a office. You know the genre from back in the late 70's & 80's.... Music that focused on vocals and not the music.
Even at low volumes with modern music you still need the full spectrum to enjoy it. Obviously Bose forgot to change with the times.
Replies (18)
Ash on 04/7/2008 21:32:35
Not an expert on Bose but I'm sure there is amplifier somewhere in the mix that will have to be be bypassed. Are you running a aftermarket head unit as well?
Bose is known for using odd ohmed speakers with matched amplifiers that have built in preset equalizers and/or crossovers that make them very difficult to run with anything else. Usually when upgrading, most will remove all stock components and start from scratch.
One of the top installers here should chime in and give more details so be patient.
swez on 04/8/2008 04:05:58
Think Ash is right about Bose speakers and amps. They use propritary technology to match speakers and amps. You'd have to measure the ohmic value of the stock Bose speakers to see what coil resistance might be to get the most from the amp.
Seems that ttocs had mentioned they were close to 2 ohms per speaker and amps are optimiszed for that load. Let's see if he spots this post and fills in the gaps.
Swez
diddler on 04/8/2008 15:15:54
I have replaced all the factory bose speakers with alpines. The problem is in powering the head unit. I did not have a volt meter when I installed the new HU. I borrowed one from a buddy today and am going to test the wires when I get home. I am trying to see if I can use the wires powering the stock HU controller or if I am going to have to run them from the actuall stereo which is in the trunk. Unless anyone can direct me to a better location to fine the +12v & +12v switch. I am not so worried about the ground (I'll run a direct ground of the new HU). I did (just for experimentation) hook the front bose speakers (after removing the factory amps ofcourse) just for a minute and it seemed to play well. I hope that did not damage the HU. I wasn't thinking very clearly at the time :).
swez on 04/9/2008 04:06:33
While you have the meter on hand, measure the ohmic resistance of these Bose speakers you have removed. Just used the Ohms scale and see what numbers show up when probing the speaker terminals. It would confirm a few open questions to resolve later.
Most HU amps are designed for 4 ohm loads or higher. If we run lower loads at higher power levels for a sustained time period, the HU amps will heat up the output transistors and eventually fry them. We can tell this is a problem when touching the HU for heat. Warm is OK, but if the HU face panel feels very warm to hot, problems are on the way.
Swez
diddler on 04/9/2008 15:52:48
Just read your post Swez. I will do that this evening and report later. I did, however find that in the harness that ran to the factory HU (actually just a controller for the real stereo located in the trunk) their infact is a +12v and a +12v switch. The +12v is apparently an independent feed of the main stereo, however the +12v switch is fed after the main stereo so if you disconnect the factory stereo you will loose the switch. If you leave the factory unit in the trunk connected (as you should for other reasons) you will keep the +12v switch fed. Therefore, there is no reason that I can see for you to have to run any additional wire other than new speaker wire. You can tie in to the harness in the dash and leave the factory stereo connected in the truck to prevent any computer malfunctions.
Ash on 04/9/2008 16:08:00
Did you use a kit of any sort to install the stereo?
diddler on 04/9/2008 21:31:30
Swez.....of course you cannot accurately measure impedance with a simple DMM, but it is reading .9 ohms. I would assume the impedance on these factory bose speakers must be somewhere between 1 to 2.5 ohms (give or take). I realize this is a big gap but it is enough to know that they most likely would not be safe to run off of an aftermarket HU. I have not measured nor do I think I have the equipment to measure true impedance. If you have a simple way to measure this a little more accurately please let me know and I will do so.
diddler
diddler on 04/9/2008 21:54:40
Ash......no, I ran all new speaker wire, located the +12v & +12v switch in the dash and ran a direct ground from the stereo. Everything is working great now. This weekend i will be installing the amp and woof.
swez on 04/11/2008 07:07:55
Yes, that is correct did.
A DMM will measure DC resistance of the coil only. There is an offset from the "AC Reactive Impedance" value at work here too. (~15% higher) If the DMM measured 0.9 ohms, the likely AC value would be closer to 1.2 ohms.
In many cases, most guys will add aftermarket speakers, run new speaker lines and bypass all factory amps and such. This is a little more work for the installer, but it's often cheaper in the long run to do this rather than buying expensive adapter kits and remain limited to the factory amps.
You're on the right track, CLAP
Swez
diddler on 04/11/2008 22:56:17
Thanks Swez......done with the caddy for now. I did remove all factory speakers and run new wire. Installed the amp and sub today. I will still need to run a new power wire tomorrow for the amp (the one I had on hand is not the right gauge). Other than that it is complete and I will go back to working on the system in the 4runner.
Thanks,
Diddler
swez on 04/12/2008 12:36:14
Most welcome diddler and welcome to CK too.
That is very interesting about these Bose speakers. We knew they were designed in an unusual way, but I had no idea they were so low in impedance. (~1.2 ohms per coil is very unique)
Anyway, thanks for the feedback as many here have been puzzled by how Bose does things. We have a little phrase that seems common to GM/Bose users... "Poor highs, sub-par lows... it must be Bose".
Does that statement fit your estimation of the GM/Bose package in this Caddy?
Comments?
Swez
Ash on 04/12/2008 15:06:02
I can't personally account for all Bose designs, but the vast amount that I have encountered (home, auto) use drivers of the cheapest quality. The few that I have tested were nothing out of the norm parameter wise. Nothing spectacular in materials either.
If you check out P.E. clearances as much as I do or taken some Bose boxes apart you will see some evidence of such. Cheap paper cones, cloth surrounds, standard or substandard stamped steel frames, and inferior motor structures.
What Bose does have that you have to respect is their vast knowledge of acoustics, box design, marketing, and the realization that there's quite a good amount of consumers that don't know good sound. They do what other lesser companies won't do. They actually make some cheap speakers sound decent. Usually this is done with extensive amplifier, eq circuitry, and complex enclosures. Dipole, bipole, various bandpass, horn loaded, etc.
The consumers that buy into them are not entirely keyed in on finely detailed music like elitists and those who know sound like some here. This allows them to build low overhead designs that will satisfy most that affiliate certain names with high quality. Yet, if you notice, the elitists & diyers won't buy or even possibly own any of Bose. This is because they know they could sound way better and for far less in consumer cost.
Their designs is nothing that anyone else can't do if they aren't afraid to think out of the box and actually go for it. Do some acoustic testing and a little bit of trial & error and better results could be had in your own garage. Most of Bose designs are actually ordinary and have been around for a long before them. Bose is smart in patenting designs that are normal to the diy crowd which is kinda unfair. Then they are sold for extreme prices to make people think they are getting the best.
Have to admit, they're pretty slick, but they can't "pull the wool over everybody's eyes".
Ash,
diddler on 04/12/2008 17:37:09
The factory sound in the caddy was fair at best. I agree with ash, they did a lot with very little. I was surprised at how cheaply the speakers appeared to have been made. It didn't sound great but it also did not sound like it looks. The caddy is my wifes car and she was satisfied with the gm/bose setup but I couldn't live with it. I didn't go all out on it. I simply replaced the deck with a pioneer I had laying around, the speakers with some alpine type s 6x9's in the back and 5x7's in the front and found an old school punch 250 I had in the closet an hooked up an alpine type r 12. All spares i had around so only spent $50 on materials (wires, mounts, mdf etc.). She is now extremely surprised at how much better her system sounds.
diddler
Ash on 04/12/2008 18:30:27
It's amazing how some will settle for less. My mate is the same. I install her some nice gear, tweak it, and am satisfied with the outcome.
Her, on the other hand claims that she can't tell the difference. Makes me want to rip it all out and just throw some crappy stuff in there to see what she will say then.... MAD If wasn't for me driving her vehicles at times, I wouldn't change anything from factory. It's just too hard for me to tolerate bad sounding systems even for short drives.
There's a lesson to be learned from Bose however:
Which is more important, equipment or implentation?
Could using only the "finest" gear be somewhat overrated?
Should more be spent on processing & acoustical manipulation
rather than on elaborate drivers?
How cheap can a simple, but satisfying system actually be
built?
In my use of raw drivers on my personal setups, I have found the total price to be considerably less for the quality of the items used when compared to prepackaged car audio. That aspect is the same of home audio diy. This is not to say that all car brands are inferior, but I have noticed that some of the so called better stuff isn't really better.
Minor things like knowing driver parameters of tweets & mids can make a world of a difference when deciding their use and trying to get a good response from your particular setup. It is unbelievable the amount of car audio that won't even give it. Most only state subwoofer specs, and generalized plots. Even when the xmax of midrange or midbass drivers are compared, you will be amazed how small most car audio gear is (except for the elite brands). Why is that?
The market has taken a bad turn and likewise quality is suffering. When you do find quality, the price is often far higher than what it should be. There is gear out there that almost requires you to take out a loan for. But did they really invest that much or is it just another Bose type of hype? THINK
There is often a steep price to pay for convienence and sometimes it's not just money......
swez on 04/13/2008 10:21:13
I would tend to agree with you Ash. Some company's do a lot of marketing/advertising to tout their wares and that will drive up the cost of a product considerably too.
Bose is definitely in that mindset and even though they do use less than superior grade speakers, people buy into the "Snob Appeal" because they think it must be the best at $$$ - $,$$$ a pop.
Take for example the table top version "Wave Music " system. This is an absolute hoot. Who is going to spend $350 - 1,300.00 on a table top system? Mr. Gadget that shops at Sharper Image would as he has more cash than brains available to toss around.
http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/home_entertainment/help_choose/recommend/index.jsp&ck=0
Give me a break, (End psudo-rant)
Swez COFFEE
Ash on 04/13/2008 12:15:41
Agreed! I actually listened to one at a Bose outlet. Should have seen the look on their eyes when I told them I was not impressed at all... There was so much hype in the ads that I just had to see.
swez on 04/13/2008 18:04:48
Would this statement fit your listening experience?
"Poor highs and weak lows... it must be Bose"?
Also, note they tout a 1/2 octave lower bass response in the newer models. OK, if F3 is say 60 Hz., that would make the new models play down to about 45 Hz. But if that's -6dB down or more @ 45 Hz., who will notice the difference.
I looked at Crutchfield's site for more details on the Bose Wave System and they no longer carry the line. However, they do offer the new Polk I-Sonic and it's packed with several nice features and add on potential. Here's a review of both from Loren Barstow:
http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/reviews/20070703/bose-wave-radio-polk-isonic.html
Enjoy the read as he was pretty kind to both units, but also pointed out the differences as well.
Swez
Ash on 04/13/2008 19:35:42
Granted the sound was cleaner than a boombox, but there's times when you actually want it to be punchy & meaty. If a add-on subwoofer were to be implented, it might stand a chance. I would say it's more geared towards soft music at easy listening levels in a office. You know the genre from back in the late 70's & 80's.... Music that focused on vocals and not the music.
Even at low volumes with modern music you still need the full spectrum to enjoy it. Obviously Bose forgot to change with the times.
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