Would a Kicker ZX750.1 be too much for my two 10" JL W1's, I'm pretty sure I know what the answer's going to be, but I'm on the verge of doing it any way but my buddy keep's trying to talking me out of it. So what do you guys think am I crazy to think this could actually work???
Replies (15)
swez on 03/21/2008 17:12:50
Yes, that amp is indeed strong for the subs mentioned, but no need to be tentative here. The 10W1 series is available in 4 or 8 ohm SVC versions. A pair of them net 2 or 4 ohms when wired in parallel. The recommended "Continous Power" rating for this series is 125 watts RMS per sub. With proper gain settings, this amp can handle either load and sound great too.
For best SQ performance with this amp, consider a pair of 8 ohm subs in parallel, (Net 4 ohms) and use a sealed box of 0.75 ft^3 per sub.
Yes, you can use a pair of 4 ohm subs and feed them a few extra clean watts w/o damage. However, keep them sealed so they will cool efficiently. Here, 150 - 200 watts RMS/sub is probably the limit on heavy bass hits. Much more than that is asking for premature failure.
If you wish to proceed with this plan, take time to map it all out in advance. We can show you how to set the amp gain control for optimal results.
Swez
bgmikeseay on 03/21/2008 20:16:50
Swez,
Thank you for the info. I would appreciate having someone walk me trough the proper way to set the gain's. I would like to learn how it's done.
I usually set the gain's by ear. It would sure make my spontainious, spur of the moment, late night amp swaps alot easier. Plus I would know for sure that I did absolutly every posible adjustments to utilize the full potentials of my equipment.
As for using the ZX750.1, I origionally bought that amp to feed some hungry 12' JL W3's. Unfortunatly I had a couple medical issue's come up so everything that I had been saving for my sub's ended up going to those bills. It's o.k. though I've been reasurching and planning for a few months of what I need to do to accomidate this new set-up, this set back just give's me more time to perfect it!!!
bgmike,
swez on 03/21/2008 21:36:28
Need an AC voltage meter on this one Mike, and also know what coil version of these subs you plan to use. The ear is good, but not under such conditions mentioned earlier. Here, the meter is the proper tool to do it right and train the ears as well.
Here's a simple video that says it all. They used a test tone generator and power resistors as the load. In your case, the subs will be the load and all you need is a calibrated test tone in CD format and a Digital meter for dialing in the amp gain:
http://www.icixsound.com/iv/view_video.php?viewkey=929b125f8597834fa83a
Which sub coils are being used here? (4 or 8 ohm subs)
Swez
bgmikeseay on 03/21/2008 22:40:29
I was planning to use 4ohm coils so I could get the ohm load down around 2ohm's. If I used 4ohm coils and wired them in a parrel would that work? They would probably have to be single coils also, I think, am I on the right track?
swez on 03/22/2008 08:05:31
Yes, you can do as mentioned above and then set your gain with a meter. The target AC voltage for 300 watts, (150 per sub) would be 24.5 Volts AC off the the amp lugs when the subs are connected to the amp.
Do you fully understand the process here? If not, can go into more details as needed so you don't fry these subs.
Swez
Ash on 03/22/2008 10:29:07
Just remember the knob works both ways. You can turn it down just as easy as you turn it up. Besides the extra headroom will be far less worse than underpowering them.
bgmikeseay on 03/22/2008 19:53:11
So since I have a mono ch amp, I just test the voltage from their? So should I still be looking for 24.5 volts? Another quick question, how do you determine how many volts to look for?
swez on 03/23/2008 07:59:26
To determine power in watts, voltage and other electrical parameters, we use Ohm's Law mathmatical equations. If we know 2 out of the 4 main parameters in Ohm's Law, we can calculate the remaining two variables. (Watts, Voltage, Current & Resistance are the 4 main variables in Ohm's Law)
Example: A pair of 4 ohm subs are wired in parallel for a net ohmic load of 2 ohms. We also know the subs can safely handle 300 watts of continous power. What is the target voltage we need to reach that power level when knowing the ohmic load value and wattage they can handle? (300 watts)
The load is 2 ohms (Resistance in Ohms)
The wattage target is 300 watts (Watts = Power)
We want to know the target voltage to achieve 300 watts
Ohm's Law says:
The square root of (Watts x Resistance) = Target Voltage
(300 x 2) = 600
The square root of 600 = 24.5 Volts = Target Voltage
Did you look at the video link to see how Alex set the amp gain with an AC voltage meter? This one:
http://www.icixsound.com/iv/view_video.php?viewkey=929b125f8597834fa83a
Even though Alex used resistors as the load, subs can also be used to get the same results. The key parameter in this video, is the audio signal generator used as the audio source for the amp. We can get the same results using a calibrated test tone CD, (50-60 Hz.; 0dB referenced) and use the HU's CD player as the tone generator.
We do this by setting the HU tone controls to flat, (No boost or cut equals flat) and then adjust the HU volume control to about 80% of full power. We then use the calibrated test tone CD to adjust the amp gain settings while monitoring amp output voltage with an AC voltage meter connected to the amp outputs while subs are also wired to amp.
We know from Ohm's Law that once the meter is reading a steady 24.5 Volts, the subs are getting a solid 300 watts and the bass we hear from the subs will be clean and pretty strong.
OK, do you understand this concept now? If not, what part(s) are foggy so we can focus on them?
Swez
ttocs on 03/23/2008 16:43:34
why are we still recomending using meters to tune a set up? I thought the only people that had said they did it, didn't like the way it sounded and had to re-tune it to make it sound good?
I have installed literally hundreds of systems and had use electronics to tune 3 systems that had large amps set up mono to seperate subs(4 of them). I don't think a meter is the proper tool here, it will never replace my ears......... Just seems like we are literally re-inventing the wheel here....
swez on 03/23/2008 17:18:57
To a seasoned installer, most can do a very good job by ear. But to a guy with a 2 ohm set of subs, a strong amp, (700 + RMS @ 2 ohms) and the potential to fry his new JL W1's, (125 RMS per sub) it seems prudent to take the meter route.
Swez
ttocs on 03/23/2008 22:13:42
I disagree............ By having a test lead in the wrong place, a setting in the wrong selection, it would be far easier to make that amp do something that it is not supposed to, and would probably sound bad if it were being tuned by ear. Why are we assuming these people can't hear a clipped signal but knows how to use a meter?
swez on 03/24/2008 04:28:36
OK, it's free country and we have an open minded site so, what would you suggest to a guy who has some/limited install experience, may or may not know what clipping sounds like and wants to get the most from his rig w/o damage to their subs?
Example: After working w/ a few local lads who wanted some bump in their rides, it was obvious that they did not recognize how bad their amps were clipping. After a few minor adjustments in gain, crossover and bass boost settings, they now got solid, clean bass tones at reasonably good SPL levels and completely satisfied. Yes, I did this by ear and used a meter as well. (The meter only confirmed/verified what we were hearing)
Again, a seasoned installer knows exactly what to listen for and how to correct the problems on the fly. These guys were clueless on thier setup procedures. (Gain set to minimum sensitivity, Bass Boost was almost maxed out and crossovers were above 120 Hz.) Read the manual fellas? Well, no.... why?
In these cases, I explained how to use the meter, let them try it for themselves and taught them how to interpret good, clean bass from heavily clipped bass. In the end, they all nodded in agreement... "This is how I hoped my bass would sound. Thanks for your help". Happy campers and satisfied to learn something new.
OK, your thoughts please,
Swez
ttocs on 03/24/2008 17:48:49
maybe we are different, but I never remember somebody pulling me to the side and telling me what was clipped and sounded bad. I can remember standing next to some systems that I didn't think sounded good at all but the owner never came out and said,"here it clipping?". I can however remember taking tech/college classes that started with meter basics and then continued for the next few years as I learned what was right and wrong. I can remember many many times where it was not at the right setting(current instead of voltage for ex, or had my test lead in the current spot instead of the resistance/voltage), which helped me to recognize if what I was reading was correct, but these guys will not recognize that. I know alot of people in electronics that are clueless with a meter, and they do not have blown equipment.
So to make a long story short - everybody has ears, and hopefully knows how to use them better then their meter they may or may not have.......
The only time I have tuned a system electronically was with an o-scope which is how I am sure you will agree a system should be tuned... We will both agree that 99% of the people here do not know how to use a sillyscope so if they can't do it right....
swez on 03/24/2008 23:01:46
See your points and yes, we do agree on the major stuff fer sure. As I look at this from several angles, it makes more sense to use trained ears when possible. (Untrained ears can/will destroy good gear) Do we agree on that?
Secondly, was weened on the use of meters back in HS electronics and am just so comfortable with them because we can test so many things with them when needed. (Not just car audio diagnostics) I have several types on hand and use them when needed for diagnostics of all types.
To the untrained, this might indeed be a problem. (How do I use this new toy?) That is a topic all onto itself and perhaps not for everyone. But it is very reliable, repeatable and once a guy is familiar with his meter, he'll use it often. ($20.00 is a cheap investment on such a versitile tool)
About the O-Silly-Scope, we agree here too... or better still, the RTA for the purist. However, these tools are best for final calibration and finding the flattest response possible in a given acoustical environ. These are best left to live sound and high-end HT devotees or perhaps an SQ Competitor. With the newer computer programs out there for laptops, we can have a first rate RTA right on site. The calibrated mike is the most expensive part.
In short, what's your favorite adult beverage? Give me your private addy via e-mail and I'll send some your way to relax. We are shooting at the same target, but have slightly differing methodologies is all. Yes, tuning by ear is great if we have a well-trained ear. If not, the meter will help train the ear with practice. (Some folks have "tin ear" and nothing sounds quiet right unless it's really loud)
Cheers,
Swez
ttocs on 03/24/2008 23:29:12
I had to quit drinking years ago. The stronges I can have is a diluted grap juice of which there is only one brand, and one type I have found that does not make me sick.
Replies (15)
swez on 03/21/2008 17:12:50
Yes, that amp is indeed strong for the subs mentioned, but no need to be tentative here. The 10W1 series is available in 4 or 8 ohm SVC versions. A pair of them net 2 or 4 ohms when wired in parallel. The recommended "Continous Power" rating for this series is 125 watts RMS per sub. With proper gain settings, this amp can handle either load and sound great too.
For best SQ performance with this amp, consider a pair of 8 ohm subs in parallel, (Net 4 ohms) and use a sealed box of 0.75 ft^3 per sub.
Yes, you can use a pair of 4 ohm subs and feed them a few extra clean watts w/o damage. However, keep them sealed so they will cool efficiently. Here, 150 - 200 watts RMS/sub is probably the limit on heavy bass hits. Much more than that is asking for premature failure.
If you wish to proceed with this plan, take time to map it all out in advance. We can show you how to set the amp gain control for optimal results.
Swez
bgmikeseay on 03/21/2008 20:16:50
Swez,
Thank you for the info. I would appreciate having someone walk me trough the proper way to set the gain's. I would like to learn how it's done.
I usually set the gain's by ear. It would sure make my spontainious, spur of the moment, late night amp swaps alot easier. Plus I would know for sure that I did absolutly every posible adjustments to utilize the full potentials of my equipment.
As for using the ZX750.1, I origionally bought that amp to feed some hungry 12' JL W3's. Unfortunatly I had a couple medical issue's come up so everything that I had been saving for my sub's ended up going to those bills. It's o.k. though I've been reasurching and planning for a few months of what I need to do to accomidate this new set-up, this set back just give's me more time to perfect it!!!
bgmike,
swez on 03/21/2008 21:36:28
Need an AC voltage meter on this one Mike, and also know what coil version of these subs you plan to use. The ear is good, but not under such conditions mentioned earlier. Here, the meter is the proper tool to do it right and train the ears as well.
Here's a simple video that says it all. They used a test tone generator and power resistors as the load. In your case, the subs will be the load and all you need is a calibrated test tone in CD format and a Digital meter for dialing in the amp gain:
http://www.icixsound.com/iv/view_video.php?viewkey=929b125f8597834fa83a
Which sub coils are being used here? (4 or 8 ohm subs)
Swez
bgmikeseay on 03/21/2008 22:40:29
I was planning to use 4ohm coils so I could get the ohm load down around 2ohm's. If I used 4ohm coils and wired them in a parrel would that work? They would probably have to be single coils also, I think, am I on the right track?
swez on 03/22/2008 08:05:31
Yes, you can do as mentioned above and then set your gain with a meter. The target AC voltage for 300 watts, (150 per sub) would be 24.5 Volts AC off the the amp lugs when the subs are connected to the amp.
Do you fully understand the process here? If not, can go into more details as needed so you don't fry these subs.
Swez
Ash on 03/22/2008 10:29:07
Just remember the knob works both ways. You can turn it down just as easy as you turn it up. Besides the extra headroom will be far less worse than underpowering them.
bgmikeseay on 03/22/2008 19:53:11
So since I have a mono ch amp, I just test the voltage from their? So should I still be looking for 24.5 volts? Another quick question, how do you determine how many volts to look for?
swez on 03/23/2008 07:59:26
To determine power in watts, voltage and other electrical parameters, we use Ohm's Law mathmatical equations. If we know 2 out of the 4 main parameters in Ohm's Law, we can calculate the remaining two variables. (Watts, Voltage, Current & Resistance are the 4 main variables in Ohm's Law)
Example: A pair of 4 ohm subs are wired in parallel for a net ohmic load of 2 ohms. We also know the subs can safely handle 300 watts of continous power. What is the target voltage we need to reach that power level when knowing the ohmic load value and wattage they can handle? (300 watts)
The load is 2 ohms (Resistance in Ohms)
The wattage target is 300 watts (Watts = Power)
We want to know the target voltage to achieve 300 watts
Ohm's Law says:
The square root of (Watts x Resistance) = Target Voltage
(300 x 2) = 600
The square root of 600 = 24.5 Volts = Target Voltage
Did you look at the video link to see how Alex set the amp gain with an AC voltage meter? This one:
http://www.icixsound.com/iv/view_video.php?viewkey=929b125f8597834fa83a
Even though Alex used resistors as the load, subs can also be used to get the same results. The key parameter in this video, is the audio signal generator used as the audio source for the amp. We can get the same results using a calibrated test tone CD, (50-60 Hz.; 0dB referenced) and use the HU's CD player as the tone generator.
We do this by setting the HU tone controls to flat, (No boost or cut equals flat) and then adjust the HU volume control to about 80% of full power. We then use the calibrated test tone CD to adjust the amp gain settings while monitoring amp output voltage with an AC voltage meter connected to the amp outputs while subs are also wired to amp.
We know from Ohm's Law that once the meter is reading a steady 24.5 Volts, the subs are getting a solid 300 watts and the bass we hear from the subs will be clean and pretty strong.
OK, do you understand this concept now? If not, what part(s) are foggy so we can focus on them?
Swez
ttocs on 03/23/2008 16:43:34
why are we still recomending using meters to tune a set up? I thought the only people that had said they did it, didn't like the way it sounded and had to re-tune it to make it sound good?
I have installed literally hundreds of systems and had use electronics to tune 3 systems that had large amps set up mono to seperate subs(4 of them). I don't think a meter is the proper tool here, it will never replace my ears......... Just seems like we are literally re-inventing the wheel here....
swez on 03/23/2008 17:18:57
To a seasoned installer, most can do a very good job by ear. But to a guy with a 2 ohm set of subs, a strong amp, (700 + RMS @ 2 ohms) and the potential to fry his new JL W1's, (125 RMS per sub) it seems prudent to take the meter route.
Swez
ttocs on 03/23/2008 22:13:42
I disagree............ By having a test lead in the wrong place, a setting in the wrong selection, it would be far easier to make that amp do something that it is not supposed to, and would probably sound bad if it were being tuned by ear. Why are we assuming these people can't hear a clipped signal but knows how to use a meter?
swez on 03/24/2008 04:28:36
OK, it's free country and we have an open minded site so, what would you suggest to a guy who has some/limited install experience, may or may not know what clipping sounds like and wants to get the most from his rig w/o damage to their subs?
Example: After working w/ a few local lads who wanted some bump in their rides, it was obvious that they did not recognize how bad their amps were clipping. After a few minor adjustments in gain, crossover and bass boost settings, they now got solid, clean bass tones at reasonably good SPL levels and completely satisfied. Yes, I did this by ear and used a meter as well. (The meter only confirmed/verified what we were hearing)
Again, a seasoned installer knows exactly what to listen for and how to correct the problems on the fly. These guys were clueless on thier setup procedures. (Gain set to minimum sensitivity, Bass Boost was almost maxed out and crossovers were above 120 Hz.) Read the manual fellas? Well, no.... why?
In these cases, I explained how to use the meter, let them try it for themselves and taught them how to interpret good, clean bass from heavily clipped bass. In the end, they all nodded in agreement... "This is how I hoped my bass would sound. Thanks for your help". Happy campers and satisfied to learn something new.
OK, your thoughts please,
Swez
ttocs on 03/24/2008 17:48:49
maybe we are different, but I never remember somebody pulling me to the side and telling me what was clipped and sounded bad. I can remember standing next to some systems that I didn't think sounded good at all but the owner never came out and said,"here it clipping?". I can however remember taking tech/college classes that started with meter basics and then continued for the next few years as I learned what was right and wrong. I can remember many many times where it was not at the right setting(current instead of voltage for ex, or had my test lead in the current spot instead of the resistance/voltage), which helped me to recognize if what I was reading was correct, but these guys will not recognize that. I know alot of people in electronics that are clueless with a meter, and they do not have blown equipment.
So to make a long story short - everybody has ears, and hopefully knows how to use them better then their meter they may or may not have.......
The only time I have tuned a system electronically was with an o-scope which is how I am sure you will agree a system should be tuned... We will both agree that 99% of the people here do not know how to use a sillyscope so if they can't do it right....
swez on 03/24/2008 23:01:46
See your points and yes, we do agree on the major stuff fer sure. As I look at this from several angles, it makes more sense to use trained ears when possible. (Untrained ears can/will destroy good gear) Do we agree on that?
Secondly, was weened on the use of meters back in HS electronics and am just so comfortable with them because we can test so many things with them when needed. (Not just car audio diagnostics) I have several types on hand and use them when needed for diagnostics of all types.
To the untrained, this might indeed be a problem. (How do I use this new toy?) That is a topic all onto itself and perhaps not for everyone. But it is very reliable, repeatable and once a guy is familiar with his meter, he'll use it often. ($20.00 is a cheap investment on such a versitile tool)
About the O-Silly-Scope, we agree here too... or better still, the RTA for the purist. However, these tools are best for final calibration and finding the flattest response possible in a given acoustical environ. These are best left to live sound and high-end HT devotees or perhaps an SQ Competitor. With the newer computer programs out there for laptops, we can have a first rate RTA right on site. The calibrated mike is the most expensive part.
In short, what's your favorite adult beverage? Give me your private addy via e-mail and I'll send some your way to relax. We are shooting at the same target, but have slightly differing methodologies is all. Yes, tuning by ear is great if we have a well-trained ear. If not, the meter will help train the ear with practice. (Some folks have "tin ear" and nothing sounds quiet right unless it's really loud)
Cheers,
Swez
ttocs on 03/24/2008 23:29:12
I had to quit drinking years ago. The stronges I can have is a diluted grap juice of which there is only one brand, and one type I have found that does not make me sick.
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