Alright, so I have a 94 Honda Accord EX. On the recommendation of one of my friends that has been doing installs and custom work for about 8 years, I put 2 Memphis Mojo 12"s in a ported box in the trunk. He built a box to the specs of my trunk. Yes, this monster hammers and I am not even running the subs at 20% of their max power handling capability, so here are the real questions.
1-I am able to get a Kicker ZX2500.1 amp for a really good price. Is it a reliable amp that will not overheat (I live in FL)? Or what would be a better alternative for a comprable price range (around 5-600 bucks)?
2-I need a new component set for the front of my vehicle. Once again, my friend assures me that the Kicker 5 1/4' component set will give me really loud, accurate and obnoxious mids and highs. I can also acquire these for a really decent price (around 200). What might sound better, or without any major mods, or fabricating, what are my best options as far as SQ goes. I want the vocals screaming like I am listening to music at a concert, but they also have to be clear and not muddled. I listen to mainly punk, industrial, some techno and hip hop, so Im looking for a good speaker that will not distort.
3-And my final question. At 400 watts RMS, I sounded off at an SPL competition with 142.1 dB at the kick plate. Is this pretty respectable? It was my first comp. I am actually building ths stereo based on SQ, but it was amusing to win a trophy and make people that were talking trash about my Mojo's shut their yaps.
Replies (10)
swez on 03/5/2008 07:42:57
That's a solid SPL number for the watts used to get there! That's a tribute to your buddy's skill/experience in box making.
Do you have the specs or model # on these Memphis Mojo's?
That Kicker amp is a monster for SPL Competition use. At full power, this amp will pull over 250 amperes of current!!! This means a major upgrade in the ALT, BAT and wiring under the hood to feed it. That is expensive and if you can do that work too, it will save cash. (~$500.00 worth of upgrades here)
Kicker Components are pretty solid. To get the most from them and keep up with the pounding subs, they will need outboard amplification too. Depending on the power rating of the Comps used, use an amp to match the power ratings of speakers used.
Note: This vehicle comes stock with 6.5" Comps in the front doors and 6x9" ovals in the rear deck. They may sound OK at low power, but if you want them to keep up with the Bass engine, upgrading them and amping is required.
Comments?
Swez
PS Welcome to CK SMILE
paspunxra on 03/5/2008 10:45:30
I never could find any 6 1/2" that wound mount in the doors. They all seemed to be too deep. The Mojo's are not the modulars, they are just the regular Memphis Mojo's that I can tell you. There are no more 6x9's in the rear. We fabricated some 5 1/4's into the rear doors just as fill. Afterall it is supposed to be an SQ car. The battery has already been upgraded. The alternator though is another problem. I have looked around here in FL and nobody seems to do that sort of thing anywhere near where I am. I got a quote on one from some place in TX and they wanted 600 odd dollars for an alternator that will only put out 130 amp if I wind the motor up.
Right now, there are so BA tweeters in my tweeter spot and some Kicker KS coxials in the front doors. It works, but its not nearly as clean as Im looking for. This ended up happening because a certain install shop in NH screwed the pooch on the initial install (I had no idea how to wire up the cross overs) and grounded out my midbass drivers and cooked them.
As for wiring, there is no more stock wiring left connecting the stereo to the car. Everything has been replaced, re-run and upgraded. I was going to ask you if you thought a large capacitor would help my cause any?
That SPL dB number was hit using a 10 year old Nakamichi with 2 volt pre-outs. My Pioneer 7800 series popped its preouts the week before comp.
You really think I could mount the 6 1/2 SS's in the front doors? Any suggestion as to what else I might consider/research in the same price range?
Im happy you actually replied. Thanks, good to be respected a little bit. Im not the expert, Im just trying to do as much as I can with a little guidance and a lot of hands on.
Victor on 03/5/2008 13:49:24
if u can pick this up....
you need to set your goals right... what are you aiming for...???
ure talking coaxials, tweeters probably wired without crossovers, kicker metal dome tweet components, kicker 2500.1 sub amp.... ure saying its an sq car at the same time youre saying u've hit 142+ db with 400wrms............. you talk of capacitors.....
...........................................................................................................................
you need to re-think your strategy after you have set the goals for your car audio system...
we can help u achieve them very efficiently ... but if ure ready to learn before building a system, which u shall value for long long time to come...
sorry if that was a weird welcome to CK... this is truly a club of car audio enthusiasts who share knowledge and not just information...
have fun...hope you enjoy every bit of car audio at CK.... COFFEE
PS: there are a lot of articles in the article section, spend some time reading those , they will help you build your system....
that is a very sweet sounding car, have worked on a few, very good staging can be achieved in this one and the boot does'nt eat up bass.
if you want me to draw a base line.... of what i understand about your needs.. this is how you should go with your car audio system...
Good Hu with 4 v preouts - Alpine, Blaupunkt, Pioneer premier, Clarion, Panasonic, Nakamichi and a few others if i skipped.
75wrms x 4 @ 4ohms amp from any reputed manufacturer..
2 sets of silk dome tweet components 50 - 100wrms, by any reputed manufacturer.
light sound damping done on 4 doors and the boot....
500x 1 @ 2 ohms monoblock again from any reputed manufacturer..
a 500wrms 4ohms DVC sub in a solid built sealed enclosure made to specs...
decent not too expensive cabling. only a battery and big 3 upgrade...
you shall enjoy every moment of music in your car...
if it seems that i have mis-interpreted you car audio needs, then please set an aim and we shall work on this together..
paspunxra on 03/5/2008 14:09:30
The SPL competition that I did was basically a joke. My friends had assured me that if I wanted to go and play with making a lot of boom that I could and it was just a test.
I am aiming for an SQ car. I would much rather get into the science of the whole car audio deal and find out what so many people miss, than I would with what everyone else does and just jacks a bunch of crap subs and amps in their car just for noise levels.
Actually, those coax's in the front are wired into the crossovers that were still good from the old Boston Acoustics component set that was originally installed (and botched). The only speakers that are not amped would be the ones in my rear doors. The 6x9's have been removed from the rear deck housings as it was explained to me, a round speaker will give off more accurate and clear sound.
The cap was just a question. I guess if I am going to run that Kicker ZX2500.1, Im going to need a little more of a reserve huh? Right now, I am trying to properly educate myself so that I can actually turn it into something, like helping my friends and other people build systems that do not revolve around a 99 dollar cd player with no tuning capability, stock speakers and a couple subs that picked up from Wal-Mart. No, I would rather be able to tell people to think through all of their purchases and do they best they can without severely hammering the money in their pockets.
Victor on 03/5/2008 14:13:26
SMILE Welcome to CK....! SMILE
paspunxra on 03/5/2008 14:37:53
Thank you very much. Good to be a part of something like this. Now all I have to do is get my stuff together and put a big old sticker in my rear windshield for my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu academy. I plan on acquiring all I need in the next few months and getting her on track. I would very much like to go to and maybe compete in an SQ competition.
Ash on 03/5/2008 19:54:43
Welcome to CK Pas'!
Something to know about SQ:
More attention is focused on staging, depth of overall sound, accuracy and smoothness of frequency response. Bass is needed as a fill-in but no where near the levels of a SPL or SQL rig, as it can detract from the accuracy.
For SQ rigs it is quite possible to use a single small subwoofer, 8"-10" in some cases, to take off where the front stage midbass/midrange ends. This way you get a better blend as if the fronts are actually playing the low notes themselves. Bear in mind this may not fair well with the average listener as they might find the sound rather dull compared to everyday boom cars. Yet the point here is bring out every little nuance in the recording as if you were in the studio itself.
Believe it or not, this is best done by lesser amounts of speakers, but way higher quality ones nonetheless that are strategically placed within the car. It is not uncommon to see SQ installs with just a set of high quality 2-3 way comps up front (kicks perhaps) with a single high quality subwoofer built into a low Qtc (tonal quality) cabinet and nothing more. That's right, no rear fill at all!!!
For one install I did for myself, I even made sure to use a class AB sub amp rated at .05% for the woofer to insure low distortion as class D amps normally run rates of 1% or higher. I even used drivers from companies aimed at home audio as they are usually better quality sounding although a bit more expensive. These are the extremes that most will go through for these type of setups. Some even further spending hundreds to thousands of dollars just for the front stage. Not that you have to, but some take it very seriously.
This is just a tad of what to think about for your about to embark upon a horse of a different color here for sure when you want to try SQ.
paspunxra on 03/5/2008 20:19:04
SQL? What exactly is that? I am not familiar with that term really. Why silk dome tweeters over the aluminum or titanium? These are some of the questions that I have been looking for the answers to for quite a while. I am not sure I understand exactly what the differences are between the different tweets other than the material...I know nothing about the differences in how they sound or the pros and cons of them.
Hmmm...maybe SQ isn't the way I want to go, but I most assuredly would like a car that exudes quality and not so much of the boom factor. The boom that is there will stay there. I dont have too much of an inclination to pull the Mojo's out of my trunk. That single box holding two of them gets heavy very quickly and Im new in town here, so I dont really have anyone to help me do this particularly strenuous task. The amp I have in there now running them is running at a 4 ohm load and I max at out 400wrms max output. It's an Audiobahn and I already know that they do not make the most efficient amps, but still it doesn't overheat and it starts everytime I turn the key. I cannot complain in that respect. I seriously do appreciate the guidance.
swez on 03/5/2008 20:50:37
Good overview here and it seem that you already have a plan in the raw form now. We often use the term SQL for a rig as noted in your application.
"SQL" means very accurate audio performance, above average attention to staging, time alignments, electronic crossover points and EQuliziation tools. (High-end HU's are often the right tool here) Nak's are wonderful HU's, but they tend to have limited on board tools as noted. Here, we often suggest add-on EQ/Line Driver type mixing devices to help fill in the gaps.
Power wise, we want enough clean amping power for all speakers/subs used in a given system, and still have some additional reserve "RMS" power to handle the "transient spikes" common to CD and DVD music formats and system test CD's. (Bass Mechanics)
As Victor points out, we often start with a blank page and set goals in reverse. Meaning, the desired results are well stated/defined at the beginning and then we work backward on various stages of an install to reach the desired goals.
Quality brand names are desirable when available and within budget. That often takes some research time, demo products that others are using and we like that sound and then the topper... a well planned install scheme for all speakers, crossovers, amps, wiring and then lots of tweaking time after the installs are done well. (Most SQ guys take months to get all this right) This is the general outline to follow, but there is more detail to come later.
A brief word about "Surge Caps".... forgettabout em! They are expensive "eye candy" or auto jewlery, but ineffective for all but minor headlamp dimming issues.
Back to the Bass Engine a moment... 500 watts of clean RMS power is plenty for SQL systems. More than that is just going to drive up the cost of electrical upgrades for this install. Is an extra 6 to 9dB more bass worth the added expenses? (Only you can make that call)
Also, when doing "SQ Competition" level work, judges take account of audio sound quality, a clean/seemless install, gear used and attention to minute details. Many are mainly "Audio Snobs"!!! If they our work does not match their preferences, they ding you for points. Here, a "Brag Book" is recommended.
Frankly, car audio is a very personal thing:
1. I planned it all out very well
2. I bought the gear
3. I installed the gear
4. I tweaked it for months
5. I paid the price
6. I like the sound achieved
Basically, we/I are/am the "best person" to judge the results. If it is pleasing to our/my ears, who cares what others think? (Especially if we/I foot the bill and did all the work?)
Yes, it is nice to have other so-called "experts" judge the results, but ultimately, we are the last word. We/I have to live with the results and that's what matters most.
Comments?
Swez COFFEE
Ash on 03/6/2008 03:30:11
Silk (soft dome) are usually preferred over metal (hard domes) because of their natural sound qualities. There's no hard fast rules here either like says states, it all depends on the user's tastes.
Soft domes are usually smoother sounding with way less harshness at higher volumes. Their main advantage is lower resonance that enables them to offer good upper midrange presence while sacrificing some high note shimmering. These usually are treated silk, textile, or similar type of material.
Hard domes, which are more popular with high output leveled listening tend to add a bit more brightness with extended high frequency and sensitivity. While adding more ambience to the mix, they can often be harsh at times with excessive beaming into the listening area and lessened voicing.
Materials often used are metal, poly, PEI, etc...
Still there are some designs that are able to cross their "barrier". One particular is the Dayton Reference aluminum dome. While being of a hard type, it is known to have qualities of the opposite and considered to be very high quality.
1-I am able to get a Kicker ZX2500.1 amp for a really good price. Is it a reliable amp that will not overheat (I live in FL)? Or what would be a better alternative for a comprable price range (around 5-600 bucks)?
2-I need a new component set for the front of my vehicle. Once again, my friend assures me that the Kicker 5 1/4' component set will give me really loud, accurate and obnoxious mids and highs. I can also acquire these for a really decent price (around 200). What might sound better, or without any major mods, or fabricating, what are my best options as far as SQ goes. I want the vocals screaming like I am listening to music at a concert, but they also have to be clear and not muddled. I listen to mainly punk, industrial, some techno and hip hop, so Im looking for a good speaker that will not distort.
3-And my final question. At 400 watts RMS, I sounded off at an SPL competition with 142.1 dB at the kick plate. Is this pretty respectable? It was my first comp. I am actually building ths stereo based on SQ, but it was amusing to win a trophy and make people that were talking trash about my Mojo's shut their yaps.
Replies (10)
swez on 03/5/2008 07:42:57
That's a solid SPL number for the watts used to get there! That's a tribute to your buddy's skill/experience in box making.
Do you have the specs or model # on these Memphis Mojo's?
That Kicker amp is a monster for SPL Competition use. At full power, this amp will pull over 250 amperes of current!!! This means a major upgrade in the ALT, BAT and wiring under the hood to feed it. That is expensive and if you can do that work too, it will save cash. (~$500.00 worth of upgrades here)
Kicker Components are pretty solid. To get the most from them and keep up with the pounding subs, they will need outboard amplification too. Depending on the power rating of the Comps used, use an amp to match the power ratings of speakers used.
Note: This vehicle comes stock with 6.5" Comps in the front doors and 6x9" ovals in the rear deck. They may sound OK at low power, but if you want them to keep up with the Bass engine, upgrading them and amping is required.
Comments?
Swez
PS Welcome to CK SMILE
paspunxra on 03/5/2008 10:45:30
I never could find any 6 1/2" that wound mount in the doors. They all seemed to be too deep. The Mojo's are not the modulars, they are just the regular Memphis Mojo's that I can tell you. There are no more 6x9's in the rear. We fabricated some 5 1/4's into the rear doors just as fill. Afterall it is supposed to be an SQ car. The battery has already been upgraded. The alternator though is another problem. I have looked around here in FL and nobody seems to do that sort of thing anywhere near where I am. I got a quote on one from some place in TX and they wanted 600 odd dollars for an alternator that will only put out 130 amp if I wind the motor up.
Right now, there are so BA tweeters in my tweeter spot and some Kicker KS coxials in the front doors. It works, but its not nearly as clean as Im looking for. This ended up happening because a certain install shop in NH screwed the pooch on the initial install (I had no idea how to wire up the cross overs) and grounded out my midbass drivers and cooked them.
As for wiring, there is no more stock wiring left connecting the stereo to the car. Everything has been replaced, re-run and upgraded. I was going to ask you if you thought a large capacitor would help my cause any?
That SPL dB number was hit using a 10 year old Nakamichi with 2 volt pre-outs. My Pioneer 7800 series popped its preouts the week before comp.
You really think I could mount the 6 1/2 SS's in the front doors? Any suggestion as to what else I might consider/research in the same price range?
Im happy you actually replied. Thanks, good to be respected a little bit. Im not the expert, Im just trying to do as much as I can with a little guidance and a lot of hands on.
Victor on 03/5/2008 13:49:24
if u can pick this up....
you need to set your goals right... what are you aiming for...???
ure talking coaxials, tweeters probably wired without crossovers, kicker metal dome tweet components, kicker 2500.1 sub amp.... ure saying its an sq car at the same time youre saying u've hit 142+ db with 400wrms............. you talk of capacitors.....
...........................................................................................................................
you need to re-think your strategy after you have set the goals for your car audio system...
we can help u achieve them very efficiently ... but if ure ready to learn before building a system, which u shall value for long long time to come...
sorry if that was a weird welcome to CK... this is truly a club of car audio enthusiasts who share knowledge and not just information...
have fun...hope you enjoy every bit of car audio at CK.... COFFEE
PS: there are a lot of articles in the article section, spend some time reading those , they will help you build your system....
that is a very sweet sounding car, have worked on a few, very good staging can be achieved in this one and the boot does'nt eat up bass.
if you want me to draw a base line.... of what i understand about your needs.. this is how you should go with your car audio system...
Good Hu with 4 v preouts - Alpine, Blaupunkt, Pioneer premier, Clarion, Panasonic, Nakamichi and a few others if i skipped.
75wrms x 4 @ 4ohms amp from any reputed manufacturer..
2 sets of silk dome tweet components 50 - 100wrms, by any reputed manufacturer.
light sound damping done on 4 doors and the boot....
500x 1 @ 2 ohms monoblock again from any reputed manufacturer..
a 500wrms 4ohms DVC sub in a solid built sealed enclosure made to specs...
decent not too expensive cabling. only a battery and big 3 upgrade...
you shall enjoy every moment of music in your car...
if it seems that i have mis-interpreted you car audio needs, then please set an aim and we shall work on this together..
paspunxra on 03/5/2008 14:09:30
The SPL competition that I did was basically a joke. My friends had assured me that if I wanted to go and play with making a lot of boom that I could and it was just a test.
I am aiming for an SQ car. I would much rather get into the science of the whole car audio deal and find out what so many people miss, than I would with what everyone else does and just jacks a bunch of crap subs and amps in their car just for noise levels.
Actually, those coax's in the front are wired into the crossovers that were still good from the old Boston Acoustics component set that was originally installed (and botched). The only speakers that are not amped would be the ones in my rear doors. The 6x9's have been removed from the rear deck housings as it was explained to me, a round speaker will give off more accurate and clear sound.
The cap was just a question. I guess if I am going to run that Kicker ZX2500.1, Im going to need a little more of a reserve huh? Right now, I am trying to properly educate myself so that I can actually turn it into something, like helping my friends and other people build systems that do not revolve around a 99 dollar cd player with no tuning capability, stock speakers and a couple subs that picked up from Wal-Mart. No, I would rather be able to tell people to think through all of their purchases and do they best they can without severely hammering the money in their pockets.
Victor on 03/5/2008 14:13:26
SMILE Welcome to CK....! SMILE
paspunxra on 03/5/2008 14:37:53
Thank you very much. Good to be a part of something like this. Now all I have to do is get my stuff together and put a big old sticker in my rear windshield for my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu academy. I plan on acquiring all I need in the next few months and getting her on track. I would very much like to go to and maybe compete in an SQ competition.
Ash on 03/5/2008 19:54:43
Welcome to CK Pas'!
Something to know about SQ:
More attention is focused on staging, depth of overall sound, accuracy and smoothness of frequency response. Bass is needed as a fill-in but no where near the levels of a SPL or SQL rig, as it can detract from the accuracy.
For SQ rigs it is quite possible to use a single small subwoofer, 8"-10" in some cases, to take off where the front stage midbass/midrange ends. This way you get a better blend as if the fronts are actually playing the low notes themselves. Bear in mind this may not fair well with the average listener as they might find the sound rather dull compared to everyday boom cars. Yet the point here is bring out every little nuance in the recording as if you were in the studio itself.
Believe it or not, this is best done by lesser amounts of speakers, but way higher quality ones nonetheless that are strategically placed within the car. It is not uncommon to see SQ installs with just a set of high quality 2-3 way comps up front (kicks perhaps) with a single high quality subwoofer built into a low Qtc (tonal quality) cabinet and nothing more. That's right, no rear fill at all!!!
For one install I did for myself, I even made sure to use a class AB sub amp rated at .05% for the woofer to insure low distortion as class D amps normally run rates of 1% or higher. I even used drivers from companies aimed at home audio as they are usually better quality sounding although a bit more expensive. These are the extremes that most will go through for these type of setups. Some even further spending hundreds to thousands of dollars just for the front stage. Not that you have to, but some take it very seriously.
This is just a tad of what to think about for your about to embark upon a horse of a different color here for sure when you want to try SQ.
paspunxra on 03/5/2008 20:19:04
SQL? What exactly is that? I am not familiar with that term really. Why silk dome tweeters over the aluminum or titanium? These are some of the questions that I have been looking for the answers to for quite a while. I am not sure I understand exactly what the differences are between the different tweets other than the material...I know nothing about the differences in how they sound or the pros and cons of them.
Hmmm...maybe SQ isn't the way I want to go, but I most assuredly would like a car that exudes quality and not so much of the boom factor. The boom that is there will stay there. I dont have too much of an inclination to pull the Mojo's out of my trunk. That single box holding two of them gets heavy very quickly and Im new in town here, so I dont really have anyone to help me do this particularly strenuous task. The amp I have in there now running them is running at a 4 ohm load and I max at out 400wrms max output. It's an Audiobahn and I already know that they do not make the most efficient amps, but still it doesn't overheat and it starts everytime I turn the key. I cannot complain in that respect. I seriously do appreciate the guidance.
swez on 03/5/2008 20:50:37
Good overview here and it seem that you already have a plan in the raw form now. We often use the term SQL for a rig as noted in your application.
"SQL" means very accurate audio performance, above average attention to staging, time alignments, electronic crossover points and EQuliziation tools. (High-end HU's are often the right tool here) Nak's are wonderful HU's, but they tend to have limited on board tools as noted. Here, we often suggest add-on EQ/Line Driver type mixing devices to help fill in the gaps.
Power wise, we want enough clean amping power for all speakers/subs used in a given system, and still have some additional reserve "RMS" power to handle the "transient spikes" common to CD and DVD music formats and system test CD's. (Bass Mechanics)
As Victor points out, we often start with a blank page and set goals in reverse. Meaning, the desired results are well stated/defined at the beginning and then we work backward on various stages of an install to reach the desired goals.
Quality brand names are desirable when available and within budget. That often takes some research time, demo products that others are using and we like that sound and then the topper... a well planned install scheme for all speakers, crossovers, amps, wiring and then lots of tweaking time after the installs are done well. (Most SQ guys take months to get all this right) This is the general outline to follow, but there is more detail to come later.
A brief word about "Surge Caps".... forgettabout em! They are expensive "eye candy" or auto jewlery, but ineffective for all but minor headlamp dimming issues.
Back to the Bass Engine a moment... 500 watts of clean RMS power is plenty for SQL systems. More than that is just going to drive up the cost of electrical upgrades for this install. Is an extra 6 to 9dB more bass worth the added expenses? (Only you can make that call)
Also, when doing "SQ Competition" level work, judges take account of audio sound quality, a clean/seemless install, gear used and attention to minute details. Many are mainly "Audio Snobs"!!! If they our work does not match their preferences, they ding you for points. Here, a "Brag Book" is recommended.
Frankly, car audio is a very personal thing:
1. I planned it all out very well
2. I bought the gear
3. I installed the gear
4. I tweaked it for months
5. I paid the price
6. I like the sound achieved
Basically, we/I are/am the "best person" to judge the results. If it is pleasing to our/my ears, who cares what others think? (Especially if we/I foot the bill and did all the work?)
Yes, it is nice to have other so-called "experts" judge the results, but ultimately, we are the last word. We/I have to live with the results and that's what matters most.
Comments?
Swez COFFEE
Ash on 03/6/2008 03:30:11
Silk (soft dome) are usually preferred over metal (hard domes) because of their natural sound qualities. There's no hard fast rules here either like says states, it all depends on the user's tastes.
Soft domes are usually smoother sounding with way less harshness at higher volumes. Their main advantage is lower resonance that enables them to offer good upper midrange presence while sacrificing some high note shimmering. These usually are treated silk, textile, or similar type of material.
Hard domes, which are more popular with high output leveled listening tend to add a bit more brightness with extended high frequency and sensitivity. While adding more ambience to the mix, they can often be harsh at times with excessive beaming into the listening area and lessened voicing.
Materials often used are metal, poly, PEI, etc...
Still there are some designs that are able to cross their "barrier". One particular is the Dayton Reference aluminum dome. While being of a hard type, it is known to have qualities of the opposite and considered to be very high quality.
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