Ride: used '95 Saturn SL2
Speakers: stock (as far as I can tell)
Head Unit: Pioneer DEH-P2700
Amp: none (amp in HU)
The stock 6.5" speakers in my rear deck distort really badly when any bass comes through, even at lower volumes... it almost sounds like the grilles are rattling around, but I listened closely and I'm positive that this is not the case. So I figure I need to upgrade or something. I'm watching a pair of Pioneer TS-A1667's on eBay, but I have no idea how they sound.
Is the distortion happening because of bass trying to drive too small of a speaker?
If this is the case, will I need bass blockers when I upgrade?
What brand/model of speakers would you recommend for good sound at less than $100?
What else should I know?
Also, kind of a random question, but I've seen some people mention "coaxial" speakers... what does that mean? Is it a type of connection?
Replies (10)
swez on 02/19/2008 06:59:31
For the stock speakers, they may be shot from weather and use. If we get 10 good years out of a stock set in the rear deck, that's pretty good.
Yes, bass blockers would help in this case. In this case, 60-75 Hz would be a good option. Better speakers would help though.
Coaxial speakers use a combination of a woofer and a tweeter for full range audio. Some like full range in back while others prefer a single cone midbass speaker only.
Have to get ready for work now, will check back later to see if you need more info.
Swez
PS Welcome to CK!
cplkittle on 02/19/2008 11:51:16
The only thing I can add is a little information about selecting replacement speakers..
The TS-A1667s are 50 watts RMS / 200 watts peak
Your radio produces 25 watts RMS / 45-50 watts peak.
One of the most common misconceptions in car audio is that more watts is better. If a speaker needs 50 watts RMS, you need to give it that. If you don't the result is a lower volume, and distortion from the head unit. You have to stress the little amp in the radio to get stronger speakers to move, and that stress will come out in the form of distortion. I have seen many people replace their stock speakers with 100w RMS speakers and claim that the stock sounded better. It probably did.
Back to the speaker selection.. You need a low RMS speaker unless you plan to add an amplifier. These will sound better and play louder than the ones you mentioned:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Speakers/G-Series/TS-G1642R
They don't look like much, but they only need 30w RMS.. which your pioneer deck can handle. The TS-A1667's really need a small amplifier to get the best out of them.
If you plan to add a 4 channel amplifier later on, let us know. That would change our suggestions.
SaturnMan on 02/19/2008 22:21:40
swez:
Yeah that makes sense, what with being 13 years old an' all.
So basically coax is another way of saying 2-way... ok. Would I need bass blockers for the TS-G1642R's cplkittle suggested (with a 40Hz-30KHz response)?
Thanks, I already feel welcome here. :)
cplkittle:
Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know what the wattage of the deck was until you told me. Those speakers do look much better. I don't think I'll get a 4-channel amp since I don't need a lot of volume (25W/channel seems loud enough for me), though it's possible I might want a sub down the road.
cplkittle on 02/20/2008 11:31:39
The bass blockers will prolong the life of the speakers. Since that model of radio does not have a built in crossover or high pass filter, a bass blocker should be used. I agree with Swez that somewhere between 60-75 Hz would be a good value depending on the slope (rate of cut off), especially if you are thinking of adding a sub later.
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=761&i=127BB150A2&search=bass+blocker&tp=3216
These are 150Hz @ a 6dB slope, they will work fine since the slope is not too steep. Basically what that means is at 150Hz the speaker will play that frequency at normal volume, 100Hz will be half volume, 75Hz will be 1/4 volume and so on... The bass dosen't just disappear below 150Hz, it is gradually faded out.
SaturnMan on 02/20/2008 20:30:31
Do you know if I could get high-pass filters with a cutoff frequency of say 75Hz with a steeper slope (10+dB/octave)? I don't want to waste the bass they're capable of, since I might not get subs.
Speaking of subs, what kind of setup would be best for a cheapskate not too concerned with rattling everyone's windows at a traffic stop? I was looking at this:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Subwoofers/Shallow/TS-SW251
because it doesn't take up lots of space, and I have to pull the back seat down to accommodate my full-size keyboard.
Does anyone make 4.1 channel amps by chance? Or would it be wise to rig a 4-channel to power a sub parallel with the speakers using filters? Otherwise I think I could get a mono amp, plug it into the aux outs on the head unit for the sub and continue to power the speakers with the head unit's amp.
cplkittle on 02/21/2008 13:32:06
Slopes normally come in multiples of 6 (6,12,18,24).
If you are thinking of putting an amplifier on them, most of the better quality amplifiers have a high pass filter, some with an adjustable slope.
I wouldn't use the shallow mount subs unless you had to. You can get a standard size sub in a small sealed box that won't take up much room. Normally a 12" sub only needs around 1.25-1.5 cubic ft. of air space. That would be an enclosure roughly 14"x14"x14".
4.1 channel amps are referred to in car audio as 5 channel amps, and there are a few on the market. Most of the time the 5th channel or sub channel is a bit weak compared to a seperate mono amplifier normally used for subs. You will see 5 channel amps rated at 50wRMS x 4 (interior) , 200w RMS x 1 (sub). In your case, if you just want the complimentary lows that blend well with what you have, a 5 channel amplifier this size would be ideal. I believe that pioneer is around 400 watts RMS (normally it is listed as half of peak power). You may want to go a little smaller unless you are looking for a more solid thump.
Swez, what is the formula for HPF capcaitor ratings?
Ash on 02/21/2008 20:15:07
When using -6db passive filter ( a simple lone capacitor), there is still a fair amount of bleed through of lower frequencies that it is wise to go at least 3x the resonance frequency of the selected driver in use.
Say you have a midrange speaker that is rated to go down to 50hz. An ideal crossover frequency using a cap would be 150hz. Sounds high, but when you factor in bleed-thru plus and cabin gain/transfer function, you still will get good output down low.
A speaker ran infinite baffle (e.g. rear deck or door) really needs this type of protection as it's suspension and amplifier damping is the sole control of the speakers movement. This will lead to cleaner sound as it's not struggling to produce bass notes not intended.
You can go lower in cutoff points if you use steeper slopes (12, 18, and even 18 db) since bottom octaves will be more controlled, but the higher order filters will be more power taxing unless it's an active filter.
In general -6b filters are good for HU powered setups only. When amping with outboard power stay at least 12db or better...
As far as shallow subs go, there was a thread quite a bit back on them. The main dillema with some of them was "what's the point of a shallow mount sub when it still requires a regular size box?". There's almost no advantage to that type of setup unless in a truck. A decent sub that can take a small box and still play fairly deep would warrant better use. There's only a few shallow mount subs that can fit into the latter to make a package worth using.
Something else to think about: what is being sacrificed for the smaller space?
1. Efficiency
2. Low end output
One of the two will have to be sacrificed, so you should consider which one you need less.
swez on 02/21/2008 22:11:52
The formulas for passive crossovers, (HP & LP) can be found on bce1. They have a calculator function so all we need to plug in are the voice coil resistance and the frequency range we want to use:
http://www.bcae1.com/passxovr.htm
Agree with Ash's comments above too. When using a simple capacitor as a High Pass filter to non-amped speakers, the crossover point of 150 is a good place to be. (265 micro-farad Cap value, 30 volts power rating is plenty)
Using this cap value, here's what the speaker will get:
150 Hz and above (100% power is passed, no attenuation)
112.5 Hz: (-3dB down or 50% power is passed and 50% attenuated)
75 Hz: (-6dB down or 25% power is passed, 75% attenuated)
37.5 Hz (-12dB down... yadda yadda, almost inaudible)
Swez
SaturnMan on 02/23/2008 11:34:35
Unfortunately, it wouldn't be wise for me to buy speakers now, since I'll be leaving town for a month, and my money has to go toward traveling expenses, so I probably won't be on here for awhile.
Thanks for your help guys, I learned a lot coming here, and I hope to come back again soon.
swez on 02/23/2008 14:17:40
Wise plan and this can wait until cash flow is better and trip is over. Besides, winter is just about over now and by the time you get back from this trip, spring will be here and better weather to do such things.
Swez
Speakers: stock (as far as I can tell)
Head Unit: Pioneer DEH-P2700
Amp: none (amp in HU)
The stock 6.5" speakers in my rear deck distort really badly when any bass comes through, even at lower volumes... it almost sounds like the grilles are rattling around, but I listened closely and I'm positive that this is not the case. So I figure I need to upgrade or something. I'm watching a pair of Pioneer TS-A1667's on eBay, but I have no idea how they sound.
Is the distortion happening because of bass trying to drive too small of a speaker?
If this is the case, will I need bass blockers when I upgrade?
What brand/model of speakers would you recommend for good sound at less than $100?
What else should I know?
Also, kind of a random question, but I've seen some people mention "coaxial" speakers... what does that mean? Is it a type of connection?
Replies (10)
swez on 02/19/2008 06:59:31
For the stock speakers, they may be shot from weather and use. If we get 10 good years out of a stock set in the rear deck, that's pretty good.
Yes, bass blockers would help in this case. In this case, 60-75 Hz would be a good option. Better speakers would help though.
Coaxial speakers use a combination of a woofer and a tweeter for full range audio. Some like full range in back while others prefer a single cone midbass speaker only.
Have to get ready for work now, will check back later to see if you need more info.
Swez
PS Welcome to CK!
cplkittle on 02/19/2008 11:51:16
The only thing I can add is a little information about selecting replacement speakers..
The TS-A1667s are 50 watts RMS / 200 watts peak
Your radio produces 25 watts RMS / 45-50 watts peak.
One of the most common misconceptions in car audio is that more watts is better. If a speaker needs 50 watts RMS, you need to give it that. If you don't the result is a lower volume, and distortion from the head unit. You have to stress the little amp in the radio to get stronger speakers to move, and that stress will come out in the form of distortion. I have seen many people replace their stock speakers with 100w RMS speakers and claim that the stock sounded better. It probably did.
Back to the speaker selection.. You need a low RMS speaker unless you plan to add an amplifier. These will sound better and play louder than the ones you mentioned:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Speakers/G-Series/TS-G1642R
They don't look like much, but they only need 30w RMS.. which your pioneer deck can handle. The TS-A1667's really need a small amplifier to get the best out of them.
If you plan to add a 4 channel amplifier later on, let us know. That would change our suggestions.
SaturnMan on 02/19/2008 22:21:40
swez:
Yeah that makes sense, what with being 13 years old an' all.
So basically coax is another way of saying 2-way... ok. Would I need bass blockers for the TS-G1642R's cplkittle suggested (with a 40Hz-30KHz response)?
Thanks, I already feel welcome here. :)
cplkittle:
Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know what the wattage of the deck was until you told me. Those speakers do look much better. I don't think I'll get a 4-channel amp since I don't need a lot of volume (25W/channel seems loud enough for me), though it's possible I might want a sub down the road.
cplkittle on 02/20/2008 11:31:39
The bass blockers will prolong the life of the speakers. Since that model of radio does not have a built in crossover or high pass filter, a bass blocker should be used. I agree with Swez that somewhere between 60-75 Hz would be a good value depending on the slope (rate of cut off), especially if you are thinking of adding a sub later.
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=761&i=127BB150A2&search=bass+blocker&tp=3216
These are 150Hz @ a 6dB slope, they will work fine since the slope is not too steep. Basically what that means is at 150Hz the speaker will play that frequency at normal volume, 100Hz will be half volume, 75Hz will be 1/4 volume and so on... The bass dosen't just disappear below 150Hz, it is gradually faded out.
SaturnMan on 02/20/2008 20:30:31
Do you know if I could get high-pass filters with a cutoff frequency of say 75Hz with a steeper slope (10+dB/octave)? I don't want to waste the bass they're capable of, since I might not get subs.
Speaking of subs, what kind of setup would be best for a cheapskate not too concerned with rattling everyone's windows at a traffic stop? I was looking at this:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Subwoofers/Shallow/TS-SW251
because it doesn't take up lots of space, and I have to pull the back seat down to accommodate my full-size keyboard.
Does anyone make 4.1 channel amps by chance? Or would it be wise to rig a 4-channel to power a sub parallel with the speakers using filters? Otherwise I think I could get a mono amp, plug it into the aux outs on the head unit for the sub and continue to power the speakers with the head unit's amp.
cplkittle on 02/21/2008 13:32:06
Slopes normally come in multiples of 6 (6,12,18,24).
If you are thinking of putting an amplifier on them, most of the better quality amplifiers have a high pass filter, some with an adjustable slope.
I wouldn't use the shallow mount subs unless you had to. You can get a standard size sub in a small sealed box that won't take up much room. Normally a 12" sub only needs around 1.25-1.5 cubic ft. of air space. That would be an enclosure roughly 14"x14"x14".
4.1 channel amps are referred to in car audio as 5 channel amps, and there are a few on the market. Most of the time the 5th channel or sub channel is a bit weak compared to a seperate mono amplifier normally used for subs. You will see 5 channel amps rated at 50wRMS x 4 (interior) , 200w RMS x 1 (sub). In your case, if you just want the complimentary lows that blend well with what you have, a 5 channel amplifier this size would be ideal. I believe that pioneer is around 400 watts RMS (normally it is listed as half of peak power). You may want to go a little smaller unless you are looking for a more solid thump.
Swez, what is the formula for HPF capcaitor ratings?
Ash on 02/21/2008 20:15:07
When using -6db passive filter ( a simple lone capacitor), there is still a fair amount of bleed through of lower frequencies that it is wise to go at least 3x the resonance frequency of the selected driver in use.
Say you have a midrange speaker that is rated to go down to 50hz. An ideal crossover frequency using a cap would be 150hz. Sounds high, but when you factor in bleed-thru plus and cabin gain/transfer function, you still will get good output down low.
A speaker ran infinite baffle (e.g. rear deck or door) really needs this type of protection as it's suspension and amplifier damping is the sole control of the speakers movement. This will lead to cleaner sound as it's not struggling to produce bass notes not intended.
You can go lower in cutoff points if you use steeper slopes (12, 18, and even 18 db) since bottom octaves will be more controlled, but the higher order filters will be more power taxing unless it's an active filter.
In general -6b filters are good for HU powered setups only. When amping with outboard power stay at least 12db or better...
As far as shallow subs go, there was a thread quite a bit back on them. The main dillema with some of them was "what's the point of a shallow mount sub when it still requires a regular size box?". There's almost no advantage to that type of setup unless in a truck. A decent sub that can take a small box and still play fairly deep would warrant better use. There's only a few shallow mount subs that can fit into the latter to make a package worth using.
Something else to think about: what is being sacrificed for the smaller space?
1. Efficiency
2. Low end output
One of the two will have to be sacrificed, so you should consider which one you need less.
swez on 02/21/2008 22:11:52
The formulas for passive crossovers, (HP & LP) can be found on bce1. They have a calculator function so all we need to plug in are the voice coil resistance and the frequency range we want to use:
http://www.bcae1.com/passxovr.htm
Agree with Ash's comments above too. When using a simple capacitor as a High Pass filter to non-amped speakers, the crossover point of 150 is a good place to be. (265 micro-farad Cap value, 30 volts power rating is plenty)
Using this cap value, here's what the speaker will get:
150 Hz and above (100% power is passed, no attenuation)
112.5 Hz: (-3dB down or 50% power is passed and 50% attenuated)
75 Hz: (-6dB down or 25% power is passed, 75% attenuated)
37.5 Hz (-12dB down... yadda yadda, almost inaudible)
Swez
SaturnMan on 02/23/2008 11:34:35
Unfortunately, it wouldn't be wise for me to buy speakers now, since I'll be leaving town for a month, and my money has to go toward traveling expenses, so I probably won't be on here for awhile.
Thanks for your help guys, I learned a lot coming here, and I hope to come back again soon.
swez on 02/23/2008 14:17:40
Wise plan and this can wait until cash flow is better and trip is over. Besides, winter is just about over now and by the time you get back from this trip, spring will be here and better weather to do such things.
Swez
Copyright ClubKnowledge 2009 * All Rights Reserved
