alright, here it goes: i have a 94 ford tempo, with some sort of aftermarke radio in it (it came with the car, there's no recognizable name brand on it). Im planning on getting a kenwood mp205 head unit (50x4, 2v preout), and a 10 in. sub. im either getting a 1000w sub with a 300w rms rating, or a 700w sub with a 175w rms rating. the cheaper of the two (money is a huge factor) would be the 700w. what i need someone else's experties on is what kind of an amp to purchase, i have very little spending money, so i cant really afford a top of the line amp, i just need an amp the will help me get the best sound out of my sub without overpowering. im very new at this, so i dont exactly know what im doing, any advice you guys can give me would be great
Replies (46)
Ash on 11/23/2007 23:18:30
Welcome to CK "Change"! If you don't mind me asking, try to break up your topics into paragraphs where they are more understandable.
Exactly what it is that you want in a system, better than stock, clarity, loudness, etc? I'm quite sure we can help you with that if you are clear on the basics.
Don't worry about any certain subs right now. First we must see what your tastes are to get things where you want. So tell your wants and your real budget.
Ash
gotsomechange on 11/24/2007 10:30:42
What I want is a system with clear bass, i've heard a few of my friends' systems and they have a lot of bass, but it sounds terrible.
As for my budget, I dont have a job right now, but i will have one in February, which is when im going to start buying all this.
I do have enough in the bank to buy the head unit now though.
Ash on 11/24/2007 11:13:35
Setting up a good sounding system takes solid planning with realistic ideas. Finding the products that fit the criteria also can be a job if rushed to soon.
Your financial situation isn't bad for if you hold off until the projected budget funds are ready, you will have plenty time to plot out something that will put your friends gear to shame.
Killing the savings you have now for something meniscule won't justify when you really need it. Getting a job sometimes means spending money before you get paid.
Examples:
Lunch
Gas
Appropriate attire
The unexpected (flat tires, breakdowns, etc)
In the meantime we can put together a solid plan built upon what you are looking to accomplish and then find the appropriate gear when ready. This would also be a good time for you to start learning the basics.
Putting up a list of stuff now won't matter as they might not be readily available when you are...
Make any sense?
gotsomechange on 11/24/2007 11:38:09
makes sense, im really not planning on buying anything yet, i just like to plan it all out before i do get the money.
im turning 16 this february (which is why i dont have a job) but i made enough cash last summer to buy a car so i was just thinking about what i could put in it to make it sound better.
thanks for the advice though, i've been reading around the site to try and get an idea of what im doing, and i've been learning some new things, it's been really helpful.
Ash on 11/24/2007 11:46:55
Another smart young man.... It's good to see that you are willing to take your time as this isn't a cake walk like some may make it seem. There are a lot of mistakes that could be made, and monies lost. Plotting it all out is one of the most important and most overlooked steps. You've come to the right place to learn and get help.
So tell us what kind of car you've got and we'll throw some ideas around to get a feel of things. This will help prepare you for what you may encounter.
Ash,
gotsomechange on 11/24/2007 12:02:57
I bought a 94, Ford Tempo; it has a lot of miles on it, so i dont know how long it will last, but it's got a good 10,000 miles left on it.
Once it dies on me, I'm planning on buying a Chevy Lumina. I've checked the specifications on both cars, and the only diffrence as far as size goes is the back speakers (mine has 6x8, the lumina has 6x9)
I don't know whether I should pay to replace the back speakers in each car, or if i should try to redneck it and squeeze some 6x9's in my tempo
thanks
Ash on 11/24/2007 13:26:08
Well that's something else you may have to consider; is it worth investing a modest stereo into a vehicle that you may not keep for a while?
As far as the Lumina goes, don't cross that bridge til you get there. I mean unless you're planning on it soon, things could change where you might opt for a different car. That is unless you've got your heart set on it. Maybe it would be worth saving up and going for the Lumina before the Tempo dies.
Seems like doing a install may have issues if your not settled with having the vehicle for some time. That can lead to money wasted.....
swez on 11/24/2007 14:10:22
Wise words here and to be honest, the first install is always the most difficult and expensive. If we buy smart and don't do any major mods to the present car, we can simply pull out out nice gear, put the stock stuff back in and transfer to the next vehicle later. That takes good planning and a resonable budget.
You're a pretty sharp kid at 16 and this will work in your favor too. Some careful research and planning now, will set you up nice for some great gear later. (Heck, waited 18 months for the right deal on a new fly rod. The kit listed out for over $200 and I nabbed it for $62.00 on e-bay) Good things come to those who wait, are patient and know a great bargin and can pounce on it when it arrives. Keep that in mind and all will come out swell.
Also, many of the best deals of the year come out after the new year. Buying last years model, (or older) if a very good strategy. Stores need to get rid of the old stock and make room for the new stuff. They also have to pay taxes on inventory that does not move in a timely way. Let those work in your favor as well.
Finally, when money is tight, we can do things in stages. We can pre-wire the car for the gear we plan to use later and everything will be there when the gear comes in. Then, add the various components as money comes in and so do the good deals.
Swez
PS I'm with Ash on this one too. We're both old enough to be your dad. We've been down this route with many CK readers and can steer you into some better than average deals if you can save up now, learn the fundamentals and apply them well as time goes on. Now is a good time to save, plan and learn. Take the time now and everything will work out swell in the future. ;~)
gotsomechange on 11/24/2007 20:28:57
Thanks, you guys. You've helped me out a lot. From your advice, and from reading around the site; learning new things.
One more question if I may: How do I compare rms ratings of a 2 channel amp, to a sub? (Is it any diffrent from a mono channel?)
What kind of math do I need to do in order to know how much power im putting into my sub?
Lets say I have one 800w sub, with a 350w RMS rating....(hypoothetically)
How powerfull of an amp would I need to get? And around how much would this cost me? (for the amplifier)
swez on 11/25/2007 03:57:46
In most cases, we try to match a subs RMS, (Continous) power handling ratings to the amp or visa-versa. That's not a fixed rule, but a good rule of thumb.
As for amps, Class D amps are preferred for sub use as they are most efficient and deliver better output power VS the power they consume. (80% eff) Yes, 2 channel, Class A/B amps are also usable, but they are less efficient, (~60%) and draw more power.
To determine the actual power an amp is putting out, we factor measured voltage from the amp with the ohmic load of the sub(s) used.
Here's the poop and we use Ohm's Law to calculate power in watts.
The Scenario: A Class D amp, 2 ohm sub
1 Sub with a "2 ohm" voice coil
We measure the AC voltage feeding the sub and see 24.5 Volts AC
Voltage x Voltage/Ohmic load = Watts of power (Esq/R = P)
24.5 x 24.5 = 600/2 = 300 Watts
That's not too shabby huh? A 300 watt supply to a fairly efficient sub is going to deliver some solid bass. In this case, assume a Class D amp that is 80% eff. It will consume 375 watts to produce 300 watts to the output side of this amp. 300/.8 = 375 watts power consumed.
Now, let's look at a 2 channel amp in bridged mode. (MONO)
Here the amp also delivers 300 watts, but to a 4 ohm sub and the amp is about 60% eff.
Sq Rt of: (300 watts x 4 ohms) = 1200 sq rt = 34.6 Volts
The power consumption here is 300/.6 = 500 watts power consumed to generate a 300 watt output.
Note the difference in power consumption to get the same output value. There's a sizable loss factor in amp efficiency between the 2 possible choices, but the net output is the same. (300 watts)
That's why it is good to use Class D amps for subs. They run cooler, deliver adequate power and efficiency is good enough to go easy on the car electricals.
See the connection?
Swez
gotsomechange on 11/25/2007 11:48:09
So is the extra used power in a two channel amp going to be bad enough for me to want to spend more money on a one channel amp?
My only reason for looking at 2 channel amps is just that they are less costly. (usually) Unless I can find a really good deal.
swez on 11/25/2007 16:50:31
That all depends on how much power you need for the sub(s) you plan to use. In modest sub systems, it is cheaper to use a 2 channel amp to power a given sub. Unfortunately, we need more power to feed the amp and sub(s) used.
Since you are in the early planning stages now, a Class D Mono amp is usually the best route to take for sub apps. In this case, a modest power Mono amp and an efficienct sub design are most desirable.
Also, this car does not have a huge reserve electrical power ALT to handle a large, power hungry Class A/B amp for sub use. (300-400 watts RMS at best) As I did a quick look up on this vehicle, it looks like you may have a 95 ampere ALT. That's not bad for moderate power sub amps. That's 95 amperes at peak output. (~2,300 RPM) But at idle speeds, the output is about half that value. Be aware that the larger the wattage rating of a given amp, the more current it will draw when we dial up the bass.
http://www.carpartswholesale.com/cpw/ford~tempo~alternator.html
Looked at your model year and engine size. From what I can see, this car is 95 amperes peak and maybe 55 amperes at idle. Good, but a current hogging A/B amp is not wise for this car. Electrical upgrades can get expensive and why spend more $$$ here when you can get a more efficient amp? In the long run, it's cheaper to buy a more efficient Class D amp. (Even if it costs a tad more now, it will save money in the long run)
In a nutshell, it is often better to spend a bit more on an efficient amp/sub design then deal with added electrical upgrades later. We can definitely guide you to cost effective products that deliver both now and in your Chevy Lumina later.
Swez
gotsomechange on 11/25/2007 17:46:58
Makes sense. So, how big do you think I should go?
I really don't want to spend more than around $250 for this bass setup, unless it will last and I can use it from car to car. (let me know if I'm being rediculous, I still dont know what im talking about) Is that going to be do-able?
Should I even try to put two subs in this car? Or should I just stay small for now?
swez on 11/25/2007 22:30:25
Think "Investment" as we move along this path a little deeper into the project. That means buying well proven products that are reliable, rated power is accurate and will last many years if used properly. (Yes, and transferable to another vehicle later)
The budget number is a tad low when we add in wiring, fuse and misc hardware. (Maybe tweak that up to ~$350.00 or so) I would suggest branded names like Rockford, Alpine, Kenwood, Polk, Infinity, JBL and the list goes on. Buy well the first time w/o regrets. (Buy cheap trash now and you'll be replacing it with the gear that could have been bought the first time out) Way more expensive to buy twice huh?
Let's look at Alpine and Kenwood. Both are solid products, Class D amps and deliver 400-500 watts RMS @ 2 ohms.
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3732
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=5285
Note these amps can deliver a solid 400-500 watts RMS at 2 ohms and will draw slightly under 40 amps of current at full power. This one can be had cheaper off e-bay if you are willing to look and don't mind a few bidding challenges. (Sniping is often a good strategy here)
The Alpine and Kenwood have very good features and above average reliability records too. These are NOT entry level junk amps. They are a very good bang for the buck too. These are not budget busters either. There are many very expensive amps out there too, but we'll shoot for good quality, good power and reasonable prices.
Sub options:
Here, a single strong 12" sub that can be wired for 2 ohms, (4+4 DVC will do the job) and RMS power handling between 400-500 watts is good. We also look at efficiency ratings as well for subs. A good number is generally above 86dB SPL @ 2.83 volts. (That's going to be "Greek" to you now) But we do speak "Greek" and understand Greek, so we'll cover your back side on this one.
The other option would be a pair of 10's. Here, a pair of 4 ohm, 10" SVC's would be fine if rated between 200-250 watts RMS per sub. There is more cone area in this configuration and the cost of two 10's might be a little more unless great shopping is done. (Think Cadence closeouts)
As far as brands go, there's a huge selection out there to choose from. The well branded names will be more expensive, but live up to their reputations. There are also newer brands out there that come from very well established speaker makers most have never heard of. These range from cheap trash to solid bass makers and exotic and very expensive woofers. (The elite Audio-snob choice) Stay in the middle of the pack and that will get the job done.
Another aspect when choosing subs, would be the type of music one likes best. Subs come in many flavors and some are very good for accuracy and good output levels. Other options are fine for low, deep bass throbs for Rap and Hip Hop. Knowing your taste in music will help us pick a solid sub and enclosure package that meets your tastes.
Also, some sub brands are designed for small, compact enclosures and sound great sealed or ported. On the other end of the spectrum, we can find subs that go deep and low, handle lots of power, but need larger boxes to get the most from them. They have a place for some needs, but a solid SQL sub, (Clean, accurate and can get loud when we want to show off a little) are always a solid choice.
I'll stop for now and let you digest this first installment. We have plenty of solid team players here to guide you. I'm the old man on this team, but there are plenty of skilled players here to help too. Let them give comments and see what others can add to the mix. We tend to be better at teaming here. None know it all, but as a group, CK has a deep pool of knowledge at hand. Use it to your advantage.
Swez
Old Man Audio
gotsomechange on 11/26/2007 18:33:10
$350? I can do that, it might take me a while, but come February, I'll have my job, and a steady income again. I'll be able to start saving money. (aside from car insurance and all that good stuff)
I was thinking about going with a single 12 inch subwoofer, I dont really want to go with two subs just yet.
You mentioned that some subwoofers need a bigger box to catch the lows in some songs, so I measured my trunk. I measured the most narrow part, where the wheel wells are, and where I plan on putting all of this, it measured just bearly 36 inches across. There are arms supporting the trunk lid, so I measured from the bottom of those to the bottom of the trunk: 15 inches. As for the depth, I only really want to use around 20 inches, but I can give or take a few inches if needed.
As for my taste in music, I listen to just about everything but jazz...bluegrass, country..etc..I'll mostly be listening to stuff with a lot of bass, (rap, hip hop, R&B and the occasional techno song)
The spot I measured in my trunk is only a suggestion really. I can move it around if I need to make room for wires, or an amp or something.
swez on 11/27/2007 06:01:21
A quality 12" sub, (Like Alpine's SWR-1242D) can do well in a 0.85 - 2.0 cf box, depending on use of sealed or ported enclosure. No problems meeting that space need in the trunk dimensions mentioned.
Height of the box is fixed, (~14" max) but you have plenty of width and depth to work with here. Here, a wedge type design would be desirable. We can drop the "H" a bit and make up the rest in "D" and "W".
In most designs, firing the sub toward the back of the trunk, (Back bumper) nets the best bass results. Upfiring sub designs just make the trunk lid act like a rattle resonator. Keep that in mind as you go.
Swez
gotsomechange on 11/27/2007 16:50:22
I'll keep checking up on ebay for any of the gear you mentioned, and I'll ask if I have a question on "is this a good deal?" and stuff like that.
Thanks for the advice, you and Ash have helped, I feel a lot more confident putting money into something like this now. I was suprised to see how "newbie" friendly this site was. You guys go out of your way to help, thats awsome.
swez on 11/27/2007 18:50:14
We were all newbies at one time and know the feelings of not knowing how best to proceed. Not to worry, we are a newbie friendly site and go the extra mile to help others.
Enjoy the hunt and the process that it brings into the game,
Swez
PS Yes, do ask when you get stuck. At this point, newbies are very prone to make mistakes. (Lots of bad advice and info out there bud)We can only hope to catch them early, before they burn you later.
gearhead on 11/29/2007 08:36:25
I'll throw my .02 in here since I'm extremely budget minded. I use Bazooka amps almost exclusively, and use their subs & sopeakers also.
Their older model amps are readily available at rock bottom prices on eBay.
I haven't had any reliability issues with any of their amps that I've used, and I play them for up to 10hrs non-stop on a daily basis.
Their online customer support is pretty decent. The president of the company has been a regular poster on their website lately.
Their products are CEA compliant.
Some of their really "old" gear (early 90's) WAS top of the line (Euphonic series component sets, P series amps) and can still be found occasionally for ridiculously low prices.
JMO.
Ash on 11/29/2007 18:33:29
If you listen to a lot of rap and R&B, a low tuned (30-39hz) ported setup may be the way to go. You can get a sealed to play rap good, but when played on a ported sub it is more defined.
The reason for that is you have to remember what the artist, mixer, and engineer are listening to their music on. They will record the music according to how it sounds in the studio and what their fans play it on. To accurately recreate that it's best to follow the same path. This will create better efficiency and keep certain notes pronounced like they were intended. This doesn't mean it will sound horrible with other material, just better with your main tastes.
I grew up listening to hip hop and there is almost no substitute for a ported sub for playing it. It just sounds more effortless with it.
gotsomechange on 11/30/2007 20:29:49
Hypothetically, if I have a 1000 watt amp. (peak) and a 1500 watt sub. (peak) is that a problem? Or will this be alright, as long as the RMS rating matches? (500 watt)
Just wondering, I've heard that it's not good to underpower a sub. I don't understand why, but I read it somewhere. (not on this site)
ttocs on 11/30/2007 22:00:15
i will always recommend giving a sub more power then less, but this also depends on what kind of 1000 watts you are sending it(amps are rated differently). If you underpower a speaker/sub the signal will start to clip sooner then it would with a higher power amp. When the signal is clipped it sends DC to the speaker which causes the speaker to drive either all the way forward, or all the way back for the time the signal is clipped. This is the equivilent to flooring your gas with the car in neutral and will kill a speaker much faster then if you hooked that same speaker up to a clean 2000 watt signal. I am driving the heck out of my 8's with 200 rms going to them and as long as I keep the signal clean to them they willl play as loud as I want them to.
gotsomechange on 11/30/2007 22:33:55
When you say a "clean" signal, does that just mean power coming out of an amp? Or is there something I'm suposed to be looking for to "clean" my signal, like some kind of filter?
And what is the diffrence between 2 ohms and 4 ohms? (besides resistance) If I buy a sub. with 4 ohm coils, can I still use it with my amp set for 2 ohms? I just need an explaination on how that works.
Thanks
Grdevs24zero on 11/30/2007 23:17:46
If you wire a dual voice coil sub in parallel, you can run it on a 2 Ohm stable amp because you would have then changed the net impedence to 2 Ohm . If you were to wire the coils in series you would get an 8 Ohm load.
The higher the impedence (Ohm), the more stable a loudspeaker will be, be it sub, mid, tweeter, whatever, but it will not be as power efficient as a lower impedence speaker. Meaning you won't get as much poewer into a 4 Ohm sub as you would a 2 Ohm sub in most cases.
I've never been one to underpower a speaker, and my feelings on the subject were confirmed when I was reading through the manual for my Polk SR series speakers. This company clearly stated that using an underpowered amp to drive speakers to the limit will have a much greater chance to kill them (because of clipping) than a high power amp driving them to the limit. While you still risk burning the voil coils, a responsible listener should have no problem with a sub or speaker set that is being driven by an amp that's putting out more power than they're rated for.
I always judge an amp by the RMS power, I never give the peak power production a second look.
gotsomechange on 11/30/2007 23:25:58
So, as long as the amp's RMS power matches (or is close to, but is higher) the sub's RMS power rating, I should be fine? Even though the sub's peak power rating is higher than that of the amplifier?
swez on 12/1/2007 21:15:10
Peak power is often stated by a short-term, but momentary surge of wattage a given device can deliver or handle. We use RMS or continous power ratings as they represent what the device can do safely over an extended period of use.
Ttocs analogy of a car engine is very good and applies well to this subject. If we crusie at say 3,000 RPM at 70 MPH, all is well. Now, take that same car, rev it up to 6,000 RPM in park/neutral for more than a few seconds... that engine is going to fly apart. Speakers and woofers are like that to some degree too. (Run them too hard and not in a well designed enclosure and the sub will fail)
About clipping... this is what we mean by sending speakers a "dirty signal". A normal audio signal looks like a smooth sine wave. This can be a single test tone or a complex series of waveforms like music would show on an Oscilloscope.
Here's a link to a clean, amplified test tone signal and a more complex audio wave form: (Note the smooth wave form shape at 100 Hz test tone)
http://www.bcae1.com/audoutex.htm
When an amplifer is over-worked, the power supply will start to run out of gas and put out "dirty signals". (Clipping and high distortion #'s) Under these conditions the amp tries to meet the demands place upon it, but cannot. The resulting wave form has flat spots at the top and bottom peaks. This is clipping. (As in grabbing a virtual pair of cutters an snipping off the peaks of the wave shape)
Here's what clipping looks like from a given amp that is over-driven to the point of heavy clipping: (This one gets deeper in details, but the pictures tell the story well)
http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm
Try not to get too hung up on the technical parts of this link. It's written more for people with a solid background in audio and electrical circuits and wave form analysis.
In a nut shell, speakers and subs love clean, unclipped audio signals, even if the power rating of the amp is much higher than a given speaker, the speaker/sub can handle them. However, if we use a low power amp and drive the signals deep into clipping mode, any speaker/sub will eventually fail due to heat that builds up in the voice coil.
Comments?
Swez
gotsomechange on 12/2/2007 18:09:19
Well, Unfortunately, I started my car the other day, and drove it down the road and back, (just trying to get an idea on what things needed to be fixed) I thought it felt funny on the drive home, so I asked my step-dad. He says I need a new transmission.
Conciquently, I'm going to need to put my money into getting that running and working. So, I'm not going to be able to put money into a car's audio system that would last longer than the car it'self.
If there's anybody out there (living in Michigan) that knows of either a cheap car, (that's in working order) or about a cheap transmission that I could put into my little four cyl. Tempo, go ahead and email me, (gotsomechange22892@hotmail.com) or just leave me a comment.
Thanks,
P.S. Keep in mind that I'm still in highschool, I dont have a steady income, but I do have some money in the bank. I only spent about $250 on this car. (gives you an idea on my budget and what I have to work with)
swez on 12/3/2007 05:53:23
Hum, that's not good news. A tranny rebuild would set ya back about $1200.00. For a car of this age and steet value, another reliable car would be a better investment.
Can you talk things over with your parents or relatives and see if they can provide a low interest loan to buy a reliable car? If you could borrow say $2-3,000 at 5%, simple interest plan and spread the payments out over 24-36 months, that would be a good option.
Considering what banks now pay on savings account interest, a 5% return is much better than most banks will offer the typical savings account holder. Not sure what most banks pay here in MI for savings accounts, but it's probably well below 2% unless investing in CD's and Money Market accounts.
CD's yield higher returns than a simple savings account, but there are geared toward people that are investing in safe and longer term commitments. Even so, a typical CD with $10,000 deposit and a 1 year term, nets a meager 3.8% right now. (Comerica bank rates on fixed CD's)
Here, a 5% return interest would be a good deal for you and the lender.
$3,000 x 1.05 = $3,150
3150/24 mos = $131.25 payments per month (24 months)
3150/36 mos = $87.50 payment per month (36 months)
If you are working steadily and need reliable transportation, this would be a good option to look at. No bank, car dealership or other lending institution will accept a loan because of your age, lack of credit history and wage earning capacity. (You'd need a co-signer and the interest rates would be at least 10%) If you default, the co-signer has to make good on the debt. Not a good option here huh?
Ask around the family and see who can help you out in both a loan and a reliable car. Granny/Gramps may have one sitting in the garage and willing to off it at a low price.
Swez
gotsomechange on 12/3/2007 16:39:28
I've asked around, on my step dad's side. His brother says he has a tranny that'll fit my car now, he races four cylinder enduroes all the time, so he swaps out any good tranny before he wrecks it racing..
The whole "loan" thing might no work out, my family isn't very wealthy, and I'm sure they would help me out if they could, it's just that they dont have any money to loan me.
I do have grandparents that are pretty wealthy, but I don't see them all that often, and I can't justify asking for something like that when I barely make it over to their house to visit. (they're almost across state from me)
I'm going to have to do some thinking, I can't very well put an audio system on my bicycle..Although, that wouold be the swetest bike I've ever seen..lol..
Grdevs24zero on 12/3/2007 18:21:05
You'd have to pedal pretty fast to spin that alternator up.
gotsomechange on 12/3/2007 18:34:53
And darn it, I live on flat land....maybe I'll hold onto a rope, and attach the rope to someone's trailer hitch..
swez on 12/5/2007 05:24:54
LOL... that would be a hoot. Just don't fall. The fall is bad enough, but the sudden stop can be deadly.
Swez
gotsomechange on 12/25/2007 22:36:08
I haven't been on in a while, due to the holidays, and trying to figure out exactly what's wrong with my car.
I know I said that I was thinking about getting a Kenwood HU, but I really didn't need to. My parents bought me a Pioneer DEH-2900MP which costs about $30 more.
Any comments? I figured I would keep my old HU and in the event that I do sell my Tempo, I will switch out the two HU's and put the Pioneer in whatever replaces my "beater"
swez on 12/26/2007 05:36:41
The obvious soulution is reliable transportation. The other is a P/T job close to home, where one can make some cash to buy another car in a few months. If living in an urban area, that means knocking on doors and asking around.
Times are tough right now and good, reliable workers are hard to find. This is what makes a lad into a man later. (Learning to work around tight spots in life are part of life) When I was in HS, I worked in a gas station on the afternoon shift. I rode a bike to work and back and became night manager in 3 months. (8 hours a day, 10 on Saturday) plus a full load at school was tough, but that's what it took to save up enough to get my first beater. It took discipline to do the homework assignments, but when things got slow, I hit the books and pulled good grades anyway.
BTW, back then... (1973-74) we pumped gas for the customer, cleaned the windows and checked the oil, did a nightly inventory, tallied sales and left the day manager notes on what needed to be replenished. That job paid $5.50/hour and this station was plenty busy too.
The point is, learn to focus on what we need and then figure out ways to meet that need. Many guys in my HS days had jobs after school to get their 1st car and such. It was not easy then and it's not easy now. But determination, a game plan and setting reasonable goals are the keys to success in life.
Yes, it takes sacrifices along the way, but the rewards that come later are well worth it. We were not rich either, so that just made it all the more pressing to get a job to earn what I wanted on my own. Think about your options, talk things over with others who are now doing what you'll need to do and get a few fresh ideas. It won't be easy, but that's life my friend. Life is tough and we have to learn to work around the tight spots anyway. The sooner that process starts, the sooner we get the hang of doing life well.
Time to think outside the box?
Swez
gotsomechange on 02/26/2008 17:25:09
I'm back! ...Well, a lot has changed since my last post...
I turn 16 on Thursday, I took my road test last Saturday, and passed it! So, I'm getting my license Thursday afternoon.
I put in an application at the pizza place just down the road from my house. It's within walking distance, so I won't be using gas money to get to work. And I'm starting there in two weeks.
I've changed my mind in what I want to do with my car aswell....I'm going to keep it, atleast untill next winter. It will last that long, atleast. I'm not going to put a big subwoofer in my trunk anymore either.
My taste in music has changed too. I've always listened to various genres of music, but I haven't been listening to much rap lately. I'm sticking with rock...Mostly classic rock...Ted Nugent, ZZ Top, and Van Halen have never done me wrong! I might still put a Sub in my car, but not as big..I'm not going to spend that much money on something I might get tired of in the future.
I'm playing it safe...As safe as I can anyways...I'm thinking I'll just replace the speakers with something aftermarket, and power them with an amp...And I've already got my HU, so no worries there...
newB on 02/26/2008 18:46:18
very smart.
i would say if budget allows go for a small efficient light duty woofer and box, without them there will always be that part of the music you will never hear. i single 10 on 300w can make a kick drum sound very nice
-Drew
gotsomechange on 02/26/2008 19:07:11
Thats what I was thinking... I don't want to get anything too big that it wouldn't sound nice with rock...
I just found a cheap amp on circuit city's website for around $40, I'm sure it's cheap, and might break after a while of use, but it should last long enough to keep me happy... I'll do just fine powering a small sub...It's got a 240w RMS...
kirchatndftbl on 02/26/2008 19:16:27
what sub do you plan on using???
this could be a good choice depending on the amp (whats the model number and brand of the amp)???
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_6418_Infinity+Reference+1050W.html
gotsomechange on 02/26/2008 19:22:26
I didn't have any sub in particular that I was looking at yet, I've still got another two weeks untill I will have a steady income, so I haven't started looking at any...
The amp is a 300w mono Bazooka BA1300 ...Not the best in the world, but I'm still in highschool, so I'm on a budget
....Just took a quick look, and this caught my eye.. Lem'me know whatcha think...
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_8758_Rockford+Fosgate+Punch+P1S410.html
newB on 02/26/2008 20:34:02
your going to want to find something that has dual 4ohm coils, OR run two 8s (or10s) that each have single 4ohm coils to get the most out of that amp.
-Drew
kirchatndftbl on 02/26/2008 22:08:15
try looking at these
(infinity dual 4 ohm 10in sub)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_7065_Infinity+Reference+1052W.html#
(eclipse dual 4ohm 10in sub )
htp://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_7493_Eclipse+SW6000.html
(kicker dual 4ohm 10in sub)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_3409_Kicker+05CVR104.html
(rf dual 4ohm 10in sub)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_8755_Rockford+Fosgate+Punch+P2D410.html
gearhead on 03/9/2008 10:28:21
Why not use a Bazooka tube?
gotsomechange on 03/9/2008 20:16:34
I've thought about it. But do those put out decent sound? They dont seem very big, I'll check it out and think about it.
gearhead on 03/10/2008 00:08:50
BTA10250D-DE -250w class D, 2- 10" subs (double ended tube)
BTA10250D -250w class D, 1- 10" sub
They also have a number of passive tubes from 6" to 12"
http://www.sasbazooka.com/products.asp
gotsomechange on 03/12/2008 11:15:48
That might work... But I really don't have that much money... I might be able to find some cheap on Ebay or something though.... I'll keep it in mind
gearhead on 03/12/2008 11:46:15
"I might be able to find some cheap on Ebay or something though"
Yep, that's the way to go for Bazooka products. Bazooka doesn't dictate what it's products can be sold for by dealers/retailers, it only suggests a MSRP. I don't know of anyone that sells Bazooka products for MSRP. IMO, SAS/Bazooka has outstanding customer service for their obsolete/discontinued products. I bought a bunch of used & new discontinued Bazooka amps and needed som high-level input harnesses. They sent me 10 of them for free. Heck, the president of the company, and a few of their techs are active on their website forums. I know a lot of people dis Bazooka, but I've gotten great service from their mid & top end products.
Replies (46)
Ash on 11/23/2007 23:18:30
Welcome to CK "Change"! If you don't mind me asking, try to break up your topics into paragraphs where they are more understandable.
Exactly what it is that you want in a system, better than stock, clarity, loudness, etc? I'm quite sure we can help you with that if you are clear on the basics.
Don't worry about any certain subs right now. First we must see what your tastes are to get things where you want. So tell your wants and your real budget.
Ash
gotsomechange on 11/24/2007 10:30:42
What I want is a system with clear bass, i've heard a few of my friends' systems and they have a lot of bass, but it sounds terrible.
As for my budget, I dont have a job right now, but i will have one in February, which is when im going to start buying all this.
I do have enough in the bank to buy the head unit now though.
Ash on 11/24/2007 11:13:35
Setting up a good sounding system takes solid planning with realistic ideas. Finding the products that fit the criteria also can be a job if rushed to soon.
Your financial situation isn't bad for if you hold off until the projected budget funds are ready, you will have plenty time to plot out something that will put your friends gear to shame.
Killing the savings you have now for something meniscule won't justify when you really need it. Getting a job sometimes means spending money before you get paid.
Examples:
Lunch
Gas
Appropriate attire
The unexpected (flat tires, breakdowns, etc)
In the meantime we can put together a solid plan built upon what you are looking to accomplish and then find the appropriate gear when ready. This would also be a good time for you to start learning the basics.
Putting up a list of stuff now won't matter as they might not be readily available when you are...
Make any sense?
gotsomechange on 11/24/2007 11:38:09
makes sense, im really not planning on buying anything yet, i just like to plan it all out before i do get the money.
im turning 16 this february (which is why i dont have a job) but i made enough cash last summer to buy a car so i was just thinking about what i could put in it to make it sound better.
thanks for the advice though, i've been reading around the site to try and get an idea of what im doing, and i've been learning some new things, it's been really helpful.
Ash on 11/24/2007 11:46:55
Another smart young man.... It's good to see that you are willing to take your time as this isn't a cake walk like some may make it seem. There are a lot of mistakes that could be made, and monies lost. Plotting it all out is one of the most important and most overlooked steps. You've come to the right place to learn and get help.
So tell us what kind of car you've got and we'll throw some ideas around to get a feel of things. This will help prepare you for what you may encounter.
Ash,
gotsomechange on 11/24/2007 12:02:57
I bought a 94, Ford Tempo; it has a lot of miles on it, so i dont know how long it will last, but it's got a good 10,000 miles left on it.
Once it dies on me, I'm planning on buying a Chevy Lumina. I've checked the specifications on both cars, and the only diffrence as far as size goes is the back speakers (mine has 6x8, the lumina has 6x9)
I don't know whether I should pay to replace the back speakers in each car, or if i should try to redneck it and squeeze some 6x9's in my tempo
thanks
Ash on 11/24/2007 13:26:08
Well that's something else you may have to consider; is it worth investing a modest stereo into a vehicle that you may not keep for a while?
As far as the Lumina goes, don't cross that bridge til you get there. I mean unless you're planning on it soon, things could change where you might opt for a different car. That is unless you've got your heart set on it. Maybe it would be worth saving up and going for the Lumina before the Tempo dies.
Seems like doing a install may have issues if your not settled with having the vehicle for some time. That can lead to money wasted.....
swez on 11/24/2007 14:10:22
Wise words here and to be honest, the first install is always the most difficult and expensive. If we buy smart and don't do any major mods to the present car, we can simply pull out out nice gear, put the stock stuff back in and transfer to the next vehicle later. That takes good planning and a resonable budget.
You're a pretty sharp kid at 16 and this will work in your favor too. Some careful research and planning now, will set you up nice for some great gear later. (Heck, waited 18 months for the right deal on a new fly rod. The kit listed out for over $200 and I nabbed it for $62.00 on e-bay) Good things come to those who wait, are patient and know a great bargin and can pounce on it when it arrives. Keep that in mind and all will come out swell.
Also, many of the best deals of the year come out after the new year. Buying last years model, (or older) if a very good strategy. Stores need to get rid of the old stock and make room for the new stuff. They also have to pay taxes on inventory that does not move in a timely way. Let those work in your favor as well.
Finally, when money is tight, we can do things in stages. We can pre-wire the car for the gear we plan to use later and everything will be there when the gear comes in. Then, add the various components as money comes in and so do the good deals.
Swez
PS I'm with Ash on this one too. We're both old enough to be your dad. We've been down this route with many CK readers and can steer you into some better than average deals if you can save up now, learn the fundamentals and apply them well as time goes on. Now is a good time to save, plan and learn. Take the time now and everything will work out swell in the future. ;~)
gotsomechange on 11/24/2007 20:28:57
Thanks, you guys. You've helped me out a lot. From your advice, and from reading around the site; learning new things.
One more question if I may: How do I compare rms ratings of a 2 channel amp, to a sub? (Is it any diffrent from a mono channel?)
What kind of math do I need to do in order to know how much power im putting into my sub?
Lets say I have one 800w sub, with a 350w RMS rating....(hypoothetically)
How powerfull of an amp would I need to get? And around how much would this cost me? (for the amplifier)
swez on 11/25/2007 03:57:46
In most cases, we try to match a subs RMS, (Continous) power handling ratings to the amp or visa-versa. That's not a fixed rule, but a good rule of thumb.
As for amps, Class D amps are preferred for sub use as they are most efficient and deliver better output power VS the power they consume. (80% eff) Yes, 2 channel, Class A/B amps are also usable, but they are less efficient, (~60%) and draw more power.
To determine the actual power an amp is putting out, we factor measured voltage from the amp with the ohmic load of the sub(s) used.
Here's the poop and we use Ohm's Law to calculate power in watts.
The Scenario: A Class D amp, 2 ohm sub
1 Sub with a "2 ohm" voice coil
We measure the AC voltage feeding the sub and see 24.5 Volts AC
Voltage x Voltage/Ohmic load = Watts of power (Esq/R = P)
24.5 x 24.5 = 600/2 = 300 Watts
That's not too shabby huh? A 300 watt supply to a fairly efficient sub is going to deliver some solid bass. In this case, assume a Class D amp that is 80% eff. It will consume 375 watts to produce 300 watts to the output side of this amp. 300/.8 = 375 watts power consumed.
Now, let's look at a 2 channel amp in bridged mode. (MONO)
Here the amp also delivers 300 watts, but to a 4 ohm sub and the amp is about 60% eff.
Sq Rt of: (300 watts x 4 ohms) = 1200 sq rt = 34.6 Volts
The power consumption here is 300/.6 = 500 watts power consumed to generate a 300 watt output.
Note the difference in power consumption to get the same output value. There's a sizable loss factor in amp efficiency between the 2 possible choices, but the net output is the same. (300 watts)
That's why it is good to use Class D amps for subs. They run cooler, deliver adequate power and efficiency is good enough to go easy on the car electricals.
See the connection?
Swez
gotsomechange on 11/25/2007 11:48:09
So is the extra used power in a two channel amp going to be bad enough for me to want to spend more money on a one channel amp?
My only reason for looking at 2 channel amps is just that they are less costly. (usually) Unless I can find a really good deal.
swez on 11/25/2007 16:50:31
That all depends on how much power you need for the sub(s) you plan to use. In modest sub systems, it is cheaper to use a 2 channel amp to power a given sub. Unfortunately, we need more power to feed the amp and sub(s) used.
Since you are in the early planning stages now, a Class D Mono amp is usually the best route to take for sub apps. In this case, a modest power Mono amp and an efficienct sub design are most desirable.
Also, this car does not have a huge reserve electrical power ALT to handle a large, power hungry Class A/B amp for sub use. (300-400 watts RMS at best) As I did a quick look up on this vehicle, it looks like you may have a 95 ampere ALT. That's not bad for moderate power sub amps. That's 95 amperes at peak output. (~2,300 RPM) But at idle speeds, the output is about half that value. Be aware that the larger the wattage rating of a given amp, the more current it will draw when we dial up the bass.
http://www.carpartswholesale.com/cpw/ford~tempo~alternator.html
Looked at your model year and engine size. From what I can see, this car is 95 amperes peak and maybe 55 amperes at idle. Good, but a current hogging A/B amp is not wise for this car. Electrical upgrades can get expensive and why spend more $$$ here when you can get a more efficient amp? In the long run, it's cheaper to buy a more efficient Class D amp. (Even if it costs a tad more now, it will save money in the long run)
In a nutshell, it is often better to spend a bit more on an efficient amp/sub design then deal with added electrical upgrades later. We can definitely guide you to cost effective products that deliver both now and in your Chevy Lumina later.
Swez
gotsomechange on 11/25/2007 17:46:58
Makes sense. So, how big do you think I should go?
I really don't want to spend more than around $250 for this bass setup, unless it will last and I can use it from car to car. (let me know if I'm being rediculous, I still dont know what im talking about) Is that going to be do-able?
Should I even try to put two subs in this car? Or should I just stay small for now?
swez on 11/25/2007 22:30:25
Think "Investment" as we move along this path a little deeper into the project. That means buying well proven products that are reliable, rated power is accurate and will last many years if used properly. (Yes, and transferable to another vehicle later)
The budget number is a tad low when we add in wiring, fuse and misc hardware. (Maybe tweak that up to ~$350.00 or so) I would suggest branded names like Rockford, Alpine, Kenwood, Polk, Infinity, JBL and the list goes on. Buy well the first time w/o regrets. (Buy cheap trash now and you'll be replacing it with the gear that could have been bought the first time out) Way more expensive to buy twice huh?
Let's look at Alpine and Kenwood. Both are solid products, Class D amps and deliver 400-500 watts RMS @ 2 ohms.
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3732
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=5285
Note these amps can deliver a solid 400-500 watts RMS at 2 ohms and will draw slightly under 40 amps of current at full power. This one can be had cheaper off e-bay if you are willing to look and don't mind a few bidding challenges. (Sniping is often a good strategy here)
The Alpine and Kenwood have very good features and above average reliability records too. These are NOT entry level junk amps. They are a very good bang for the buck too. These are not budget busters either. There are many very expensive amps out there too, but we'll shoot for good quality, good power and reasonable prices.
Sub options:
Here, a single strong 12" sub that can be wired for 2 ohms, (4+4 DVC will do the job) and RMS power handling between 400-500 watts is good. We also look at efficiency ratings as well for subs. A good number is generally above 86dB SPL @ 2.83 volts. (That's going to be "Greek" to you now) But we do speak "Greek" and understand Greek, so we'll cover your back side on this one.
The other option would be a pair of 10's. Here, a pair of 4 ohm, 10" SVC's would be fine if rated between 200-250 watts RMS per sub. There is more cone area in this configuration and the cost of two 10's might be a little more unless great shopping is done. (Think Cadence closeouts)
As far as brands go, there's a huge selection out there to choose from. The well branded names will be more expensive, but live up to their reputations. There are also newer brands out there that come from very well established speaker makers most have never heard of. These range from cheap trash to solid bass makers and exotic and very expensive woofers. (The elite Audio-snob choice) Stay in the middle of the pack and that will get the job done.
Another aspect when choosing subs, would be the type of music one likes best. Subs come in many flavors and some are very good for accuracy and good output levels. Other options are fine for low, deep bass throbs for Rap and Hip Hop. Knowing your taste in music will help us pick a solid sub and enclosure package that meets your tastes.
Also, some sub brands are designed for small, compact enclosures and sound great sealed or ported. On the other end of the spectrum, we can find subs that go deep and low, handle lots of power, but need larger boxes to get the most from them. They have a place for some needs, but a solid SQL sub, (Clean, accurate and can get loud when we want to show off a little) are always a solid choice.
I'll stop for now and let you digest this first installment. We have plenty of solid team players here to guide you. I'm the old man on this team, but there are plenty of skilled players here to help too. Let them give comments and see what others can add to the mix. We tend to be better at teaming here. None know it all, but as a group, CK has a deep pool of knowledge at hand. Use it to your advantage.
Swez
Old Man Audio
gotsomechange on 11/26/2007 18:33:10
$350? I can do that, it might take me a while, but come February, I'll have my job, and a steady income again. I'll be able to start saving money. (aside from car insurance and all that good stuff)
I was thinking about going with a single 12 inch subwoofer, I dont really want to go with two subs just yet.
You mentioned that some subwoofers need a bigger box to catch the lows in some songs, so I measured my trunk. I measured the most narrow part, where the wheel wells are, and where I plan on putting all of this, it measured just bearly 36 inches across. There are arms supporting the trunk lid, so I measured from the bottom of those to the bottom of the trunk: 15 inches. As for the depth, I only really want to use around 20 inches, but I can give or take a few inches if needed.
As for my taste in music, I listen to just about everything but jazz...bluegrass, country..etc..I'll mostly be listening to stuff with a lot of bass, (rap, hip hop, R&B and the occasional techno song)
The spot I measured in my trunk is only a suggestion really. I can move it around if I need to make room for wires, or an amp or something.
swez on 11/27/2007 06:01:21
A quality 12" sub, (Like Alpine's SWR-1242D) can do well in a 0.85 - 2.0 cf box, depending on use of sealed or ported enclosure. No problems meeting that space need in the trunk dimensions mentioned.
Height of the box is fixed, (~14" max) but you have plenty of width and depth to work with here. Here, a wedge type design would be desirable. We can drop the "H" a bit and make up the rest in "D" and "W".
In most designs, firing the sub toward the back of the trunk, (Back bumper) nets the best bass results. Upfiring sub designs just make the trunk lid act like a rattle resonator. Keep that in mind as you go.
Swez
gotsomechange on 11/27/2007 16:50:22
I'll keep checking up on ebay for any of the gear you mentioned, and I'll ask if I have a question on "is this a good deal?" and stuff like that.
Thanks for the advice, you and Ash have helped, I feel a lot more confident putting money into something like this now. I was suprised to see how "newbie" friendly this site was. You guys go out of your way to help, thats awsome.
swez on 11/27/2007 18:50:14
We were all newbies at one time and know the feelings of not knowing how best to proceed. Not to worry, we are a newbie friendly site and go the extra mile to help others.
Enjoy the hunt and the process that it brings into the game,
Swez
PS Yes, do ask when you get stuck. At this point, newbies are very prone to make mistakes. (Lots of bad advice and info out there bud)We can only hope to catch them early, before they burn you later.
gearhead on 11/29/2007 08:36:25
I'll throw my .02 in here since I'm extremely budget minded. I use Bazooka amps almost exclusively, and use their subs & sopeakers also.
Their older model amps are readily available at rock bottom prices on eBay.
I haven't had any reliability issues with any of their amps that I've used, and I play them for up to 10hrs non-stop on a daily basis.
Their online customer support is pretty decent. The president of the company has been a regular poster on their website lately.
Their products are CEA compliant.
Some of their really "old" gear (early 90's) WAS top of the line (Euphonic series component sets, P series amps) and can still be found occasionally for ridiculously low prices.
JMO.
Ash on 11/29/2007 18:33:29
If you listen to a lot of rap and R&B, a low tuned (30-39hz) ported setup may be the way to go. You can get a sealed to play rap good, but when played on a ported sub it is more defined.
The reason for that is you have to remember what the artist, mixer, and engineer are listening to their music on. They will record the music according to how it sounds in the studio and what their fans play it on. To accurately recreate that it's best to follow the same path. This will create better efficiency and keep certain notes pronounced like they were intended. This doesn't mean it will sound horrible with other material, just better with your main tastes.
I grew up listening to hip hop and there is almost no substitute for a ported sub for playing it. It just sounds more effortless with it.
gotsomechange on 11/30/2007 20:29:49
Hypothetically, if I have a 1000 watt amp. (peak) and a 1500 watt sub. (peak) is that a problem? Or will this be alright, as long as the RMS rating matches? (500 watt)
Just wondering, I've heard that it's not good to underpower a sub. I don't understand why, but I read it somewhere. (not on this site)
ttocs on 11/30/2007 22:00:15
i will always recommend giving a sub more power then less, but this also depends on what kind of 1000 watts you are sending it(amps are rated differently). If you underpower a speaker/sub the signal will start to clip sooner then it would with a higher power amp. When the signal is clipped it sends DC to the speaker which causes the speaker to drive either all the way forward, or all the way back for the time the signal is clipped. This is the equivilent to flooring your gas with the car in neutral and will kill a speaker much faster then if you hooked that same speaker up to a clean 2000 watt signal. I am driving the heck out of my 8's with 200 rms going to them and as long as I keep the signal clean to them they willl play as loud as I want them to.
gotsomechange on 11/30/2007 22:33:55
When you say a "clean" signal, does that just mean power coming out of an amp? Or is there something I'm suposed to be looking for to "clean" my signal, like some kind of filter?
And what is the diffrence between 2 ohms and 4 ohms? (besides resistance) If I buy a sub. with 4 ohm coils, can I still use it with my amp set for 2 ohms? I just need an explaination on how that works.
Thanks
Grdevs24zero on 11/30/2007 23:17:46
If you wire a dual voice coil sub in parallel, you can run it on a 2 Ohm stable amp because you would have then changed the net impedence to 2 Ohm . If you were to wire the coils in series you would get an 8 Ohm load.
The higher the impedence (Ohm), the more stable a loudspeaker will be, be it sub, mid, tweeter, whatever, but it will not be as power efficient as a lower impedence speaker. Meaning you won't get as much poewer into a 4 Ohm sub as you would a 2 Ohm sub in most cases.
I've never been one to underpower a speaker, and my feelings on the subject were confirmed when I was reading through the manual for my Polk SR series speakers. This company clearly stated that using an underpowered amp to drive speakers to the limit will have a much greater chance to kill them (because of clipping) than a high power amp driving them to the limit. While you still risk burning the voil coils, a responsible listener should have no problem with a sub or speaker set that is being driven by an amp that's putting out more power than they're rated for.
I always judge an amp by the RMS power, I never give the peak power production a second look.
gotsomechange on 11/30/2007 23:25:58
So, as long as the amp's RMS power matches (or is close to, but is higher) the sub's RMS power rating, I should be fine? Even though the sub's peak power rating is higher than that of the amplifier?
swez on 12/1/2007 21:15:10
Peak power is often stated by a short-term, but momentary surge of wattage a given device can deliver or handle. We use RMS or continous power ratings as they represent what the device can do safely over an extended period of use.
Ttocs analogy of a car engine is very good and applies well to this subject. If we crusie at say 3,000 RPM at 70 MPH, all is well. Now, take that same car, rev it up to 6,000 RPM in park/neutral for more than a few seconds... that engine is going to fly apart. Speakers and woofers are like that to some degree too. (Run them too hard and not in a well designed enclosure and the sub will fail)
About clipping... this is what we mean by sending speakers a "dirty signal". A normal audio signal looks like a smooth sine wave. This can be a single test tone or a complex series of waveforms like music would show on an Oscilloscope.
Here's a link to a clean, amplified test tone signal and a more complex audio wave form: (Note the smooth wave form shape at 100 Hz test tone)
http://www.bcae1.com/audoutex.htm
When an amplifer is over-worked, the power supply will start to run out of gas and put out "dirty signals". (Clipping and high distortion #'s) Under these conditions the amp tries to meet the demands place upon it, but cannot. The resulting wave form has flat spots at the top and bottom peaks. This is clipping. (As in grabbing a virtual pair of cutters an snipping off the peaks of the wave shape)
Here's what clipping looks like from a given amp that is over-driven to the point of heavy clipping: (This one gets deeper in details, but the pictures tell the story well)
http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm
Try not to get too hung up on the technical parts of this link. It's written more for people with a solid background in audio and electrical circuits and wave form analysis.
In a nut shell, speakers and subs love clean, unclipped audio signals, even if the power rating of the amp is much higher than a given speaker, the speaker/sub can handle them. However, if we use a low power amp and drive the signals deep into clipping mode, any speaker/sub will eventually fail due to heat that builds up in the voice coil.
Comments?
Swez
gotsomechange on 12/2/2007 18:09:19
Well, Unfortunately, I started my car the other day, and drove it down the road and back, (just trying to get an idea on what things needed to be fixed) I thought it felt funny on the drive home, so I asked my step-dad. He says I need a new transmission.
Conciquently, I'm going to need to put my money into getting that running and working. So, I'm not going to be able to put money into a car's audio system that would last longer than the car it'self.
If there's anybody out there (living in Michigan) that knows of either a cheap car, (that's in working order) or about a cheap transmission that I could put into my little four cyl. Tempo, go ahead and email me, (gotsomechange22892@hotmail.com) or just leave me a comment.
Thanks,
P.S. Keep in mind that I'm still in highschool, I dont have a steady income, but I do have some money in the bank. I only spent about $250 on this car. (gives you an idea on my budget and what I have to work with)
swez on 12/3/2007 05:53:23
Hum, that's not good news. A tranny rebuild would set ya back about $1200.00. For a car of this age and steet value, another reliable car would be a better investment.
Can you talk things over with your parents or relatives and see if they can provide a low interest loan to buy a reliable car? If you could borrow say $2-3,000 at 5%, simple interest plan and spread the payments out over 24-36 months, that would be a good option.
Considering what banks now pay on savings account interest, a 5% return is much better than most banks will offer the typical savings account holder. Not sure what most banks pay here in MI for savings accounts, but it's probably well below 2% unless investing in CD's and Money Market accounts.
CD's yield higher returns than a simple savings account, but there are geared toward people that are investing in safe and longer term commitments. Even so, a typical CD with $10,000 deposit and a 1 year term, nets a meager 3.8% right now. (Comerica bank rates on fixed CD's)
Here, a 5% return interest would be a good deal for you and the lender.
$3,000 x 1.05 = $3,150
3150/24 mos = $131.25 payments per month (24 months)
3150/36 mos = $87.50 payment per month (36 months)
If you are working steadily and need reliable transportation, this would be a good option to look at. No bank, car dealership or other lending institution will accept a loan because of your age, lack of credit history and wage earning capacity. (You'd need a co-signer and the interest rates would be at least 10%) If you default, the co-signer has to make good on the debt. Not a good option here huh?
Ask around the family and see who can help you out in both a loan and a reliable car. Granny/Gramps may have one sitting in the garage and willing to off it at a low price.
Swez
gotsomechange on 12/3/2007 16:39:28
I've asked around, on my step dad's side. His brother says he has a tranny that'll fit my car now, he races four cylinder enduroes all the time, so he swaps out any good tranny before he wrecks it racing..
The whole "loan" thing might no work out, my family isn't very wealthy, and I'm sure they would help me out if they could, it's just that they dont have any money to loan me.
I do have grandparents that are pretty wealthy, but I don't see them all that often, and I can't justify asking for something like that when I barely make it over to their house to visit. (they're almost across state from me)
I'm going to have to do some thinking, I can't very well put an audio system on my bicycle..Although, that wouold be the swetest bike I've ever seen..lol..
Grdevs24zero on 12/3/2007 18:21:05
You'd have to pedal pretty fast to spin that alternator up.
gotsomechange on 12/3/2007 18:34:53
And darn it, I live on flat land....maybe I'll hold onto a rope, and attach the rope to someone's trailer hitch..
swez on 12/5/2007 05:24:54
LOL... that would be a hoot. Just don't fall. The fall is bad enough, but the sudden stop can be deadly.
Swez
gotsomechange on 12/25/2007 22:36:08
I haven't been on in a while, due to the holidays, and trying to figure out exactly what's wrong with my car.
I know I said that I was thinking about getting a Kenwood HU, but I really didn't need to. My parents bought me a Pioneer DEH-2900MP which costs about $30 more.
Any comments? I figured I would keep my old HU and in the event that I do sell my Tempo, I will switch out the two HU's and put the Pioneer in whatever replaces my "beater"
swez on 12/26/2007 05:36:41
The obvious soulution is reliable transportation. The other is a P/T job close to home, where one can make some cash to buy another car in a few months. If living in an urban area, that means knocking on doors and asking around.
Times are tough right now and good, reliable workers are hard to find. This is what makes a lad into a man later. (Learning to work around tight spots in life are part of life) When I was in HS, I worked in a gas station on the afternoon shift. I rode a bike to work and back and became night manager in 3 months. (8 hours a day, 10 on Saturday) plus a full load at school was tough, but that's what it took to save up enough to get my first beater. It took discipline to do the homework assignments, but when things got slow, I hit the books and pulled good grades anyway.
BTW, back then... (1973-74) we pumped gas for the customer, cleaned the windows and checked the oil, did a nightly inventory, tallied sales and left the day manager notes on what needed to be replenished. That job paid $5.50/hour and this station was plenty busy too.
The point is, learn to focus on what we need and then figure out ways to meet that need. Many guys in my HS days had jobs after school to get their 1st car and such. It was not easy then and it's not easy now. But determination, a game plan and setting reasonable goals are the keys to success in life.
Yes, it takes sacrifices along the way, but the rewards that come later are well worth it. We were not rich either, so that just made it all the more pressing to get a job to earn what I wanted on my own. Think about your options, talk things over with others who are now doing what you'll need to do and get a few fresh ideas. It won't be easy, but that's life my friend. Life is tough and we have to learn to work around the tight spots anyway. The sooner that process starts, the sooner we get the hang of doing life well.
Time to think outside the box?
Swez
gotsomechange on 02/26/2008 17:25:09
I'm back! ...Well, a lot has changed since my last post...
I turn 16 on Thursday, I took my road test last Saturday, and passed it! So, I'm getting my license Thursday afternoon.
I put in an application at the pizza place just down the road from my house. It's within walking distance, so I won't be using gas money to get to work. And I'm starting there in two weeks.
I've changed my mind in what I want to do with my car aswell....I'm going to keep it, atleast untill next winter. It will last that long, atleast. I'm not going to put a big subwoofer in my trunk anymore either.
My taste in music has changed too. I've always listened to various genres of music, but I haven't been listening to much rap lately. I'm sticking with rock...Mostly classic rock...Ted Nugent, ZZ Top, and Van Halen have never done me wrong! I might still put a Sub in my car, but not as big..I'm not going to spend that much money on something I might get tired of in the future.
I'm playing it safe...As safe as I can anyways...I'm thinking I'll just replace the speakers with something aftermarket, and power them with an amp...And I've already got my HU, so no worries there...
newB on 02/26/2008 18:46:18
very smart.
i would say if budget allows go for a small efficient light duty woofer and box, without them there will always be that part of the music you will never hear. i single 10 on 300w can make a kick drum sound very nice
-Drew
gotsomechange on 02/26/2008 19:07:11
Thats what I was thinking... I don't want to get anything too big that it wouldn't sound nice with rock...
I just found a cheap amp on circuit city's website for around $40, I'm sure it's cheap, and might break after a while of use, but it should last long enough to keep me happy... I'll do just fine powering a small sub...It's got a 240w RMS...
kirchatndftbl on 02/26/2008 19:16:27
what sub do you plan on using???
this could be a good choice depending on the amp (whats the model number and brand of the amp)???
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_6418_Infinity+Reference+1050W.html
gotsomechange on 02/26/2008 19:22:26
I didn't have any sub in particular that I was looking at yet, I've still got another two weeks untill I will have a steady income, so I haven't started looking at any...
The amp is a 300w mono Bazooka BA1300 ...Not the best in the world, but I'm still in highschool, so I'm on a budget
....Just took a quick look, and this caught my eye.. Lem'me know whatcha think...
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_8758_Rockford+Fosgate+Punch+P1S410.html
newB on 02/26/2008 20:34:02
your going to want to find something that has dual 4ohm coils, OR run two 8s (or10s) that each have single 4ohm coils to get the most out of that amp.
-Drew
kirchatndftbl on 02/26/2008 22:08:15
try looking at these
(infinity dual 4 ohm 10in sub)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_7065_Infinity+Reference+1052W.html#
(eclipse dual 4ohm 10in sub )
htp://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_7493_Eclipse+SW6000.html
(kicker dual 4ohm 10in sub)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_3409_Kicker+05CVR104.html
(rf dual 4ohm 10in sub)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_8755_Rockford+Fosgate+Punch+P2D410.html
gearhead on 03/9/2008 10:28:21
Why not use a Bazooka tube?
gotsomechange on 03/9/2008 20:16:34
I've thought about it. But do those put out decent sound? They dont seem very big, I'll check it out and think about it.
gearhead on 03/10/2008 00:08:50
BTA10250D-DE -250w class D, 2- 10" subs (double ended tube)
BTA10250D -250w class D, 1- 10" sub
They also have a number of passive tubes from 6" to 12"
http://www.sasbazooka.com/products.asp
gotsomechange on 03/12/2008 11:15:48
That might work... But I really don't have that much money... I might be able to find some cheap on Ebay or something though.... I'll keep it in mind
gearhead on 03/12/2008 11:46:15
"I might be able to find some cheap on Ebay or something though"
Yep, that's the way to go for Bazooka products. Bazooka doesn't dictate what it's products can be sold for by dealers/retailers, it only suggests a MSRP. I don't know of anyone that sells Bazooka products for MSRP. IMO, SAS/Bazooka has outstanding customer service for their obsolete/discontinued products. I bought a bunch of used & new discontinued Bazooka amps and needed som high-level input harnesses. They sent me 10 of them for free. Heck, the president of the company, and a few of their techs are active on their website forums. I know a lot of people dis Bazooka, but I've gotten great service from their mid & top end products.
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