Hello
I'm fairly new to the scene of audio car setup, and I'm not bigge on loud audio. I prefer quality.
Basically I'm very picky on stereo positioning and overall frequency range so that one band isn't taking over the other.
I currently have 2x 6x9's (infinity 9623i), they sound fantastic, but I would like some advice on the front car door speakers + tweeters before I make my next purchase for them.
As I see it, I have two options.
Firstly, I want tweeters at the top for a nice clear-cut stereo image on the peaks - so I'm going with component speakers.
Now, do I get the 6010i's, with the tweeters & two subs to go in the front door panels?.. or the other model (forgot what they're called) which have the same tweeters, only the car door speakers are mid-range?
To put it simply, what's best, 6x9's in parcel shelf better with tweeters + mid range front car door speakers - Or - 6x9's in parcel shelf with tweeters + sub front car door speakers?
Thanks so much.
Josh.
Replies (7)
Ash on 11/20/2007 21:47:29
Welcome to CK Joshier!
We have a very knowledgable group of people here that can help you with just about every aspect in car audio.
So you want sound quality, right? Going with Infinity should point you in that direction if implemented right.
An ideal SQ setup will mostly concentrate on the front stage and using the rears as surround only. In fact it's not uncommon to see some setups without a rear stage if positioned right. The use of one wide bandwidth sub (10" or 12") will do a good job in making the bass seem like it's coming from the front. Too many or too much and the bass in the rear will destroy the stage. You don't have to have subs up front to make it work. It just needs to blend good without peaks that will draw the ears back to the rear.
Going with a component set up front is a good choice, but usually because of the passive crossovers used for optimization. This doesn't mean a high quality coaxial won't work, for the point source of coaxials is actually deemed superior. In fact there are some coaxials that use outboard passive crossovers and can easily rival a nice comp set. All about improved phase/time delay to simulate live sound and staying true to the original recording.
A good comp set can do this too, but the tweeter placement/attenuation has to be considered heavily to keep the soundstage high if the midbass/midrange is kept in the lower doors. It mustn't sound separated from the midrange/midbass. Therefore not just any comp set will do if your'e going for pure sound quality. Crossover tweeter adjustments are almost a must.
It's also a good idea to stay with the same line of rears that your'e using to keep tonal balance.
So with that said what kind of vehicle is this going in? That will determine what your options are in matching the rears.
joshier on 11/21/2007 07:50:49
Peugeot, 306, 1993 model.
Thanks a lot for your reply. I have no idea what you mean by 'coaxial'.
Do you feel I should go with the component speakers which include the two subs in the front doors, or the components with the mid-range speakers in the front doors?..
The bass is nice at the back, but could be better. Then again, mid range speakers might help the overall stereo image. (I'm used to high quality headphones.. so having a nice stereo image is essential for me, and I'm not sure if the tweeters alone would cut it)
Thanks again.
jamesp on 11/21/2007 10:11:12
Joshier, welcome to CK. I have a question for you that may help clarify a point so the knowledgable guys can steer you in the right direction.
When you refer to: Quote" should go with the component speakers which include the two subs in the front doors"" are you confusing the woofers that come in the component set with SUB woofers or are you intending to mount sub woofers in the doors with your component woofer and tweeter set?
Not trying to be picky here...just need to understand what you have in mind.
swez on 11/21/2007 11:43:16
To help clarify, larger format door and parcel shelf speaker are often call Woofers,Midbass or full range speakers.
A well made 6.5" component style woofer can do a very good job between 60 - 3,000 Hz. Above that, we use a tweeter. Below that range, we use speakers called subwoofers to handle the deep bass only. (30-100 Hz is a common range for subs)
Coaxials are speaker designs that have 2,3 or even 4 speaker elements all in one chassis. Your 6x9's noted are 3-way coaxials. Like these:
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=52000&i=107DB651S&tp=95
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=52300&i=1089623I&tp=91
Coaxials are good for front and rear stage use, easy to install and some come with outboard crossovers. If a person wants high end audio performance in the front stage, they'll often opt for Component type speakers like these:
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=52000&i=108607CS&tp=95
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=52000&i=107MMC6500&tp=95
If you are planning to amp these speakers w/ outboard amplification, consider the 2 ohm Comps for the front stage. If using the internal amps on the Radio in the dash, a 4 ohm pair is needed.
More later... just digest what's been put out there on the table now and we'll walk you through other details as needed.
Swez
PS Welcome to CK! SMILE
joshier on 11/21/2007 15:02:14
Thanks a lot for your replies.
I know a lot about frequencies, but not so much about the optimum position for each type of speaker within my car - or even the best speaker for a certain position.
I actually have the speakers in the second link you posted Swez.
Trouble is, I'm not sure if I should get the 6010cs ( http://www.crutchfield.com/S-99kJ19Y5njm/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?I=1086010cs ) Now, I have found these very cheap on ebay.co.uk so I'm very tempted, though as far as I can see - these are only sub woofers and tweeters.
Or, if I should get a same type of set, only with the speakers mid-range?
Thanks a lot.
joshier on 11/21/2007 15:40:09
OK, just to mention, I think I have found out what I've been getting in a ca-fuddle with!
I associated all 'woofers' with 'subwoofer/woofers' in that I thought 'woofers' were the ones producing just the subbass (below 200hz for example).Instead I now realize that a 'woofer' is capable of (and I quote) "40 hertz up to about a kilohertz or higher." - wikipedia ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woofer
This is why I was concerned about my stereo image if I only have tweeters by my head, with only "subwoofers" in the door panels. I guess I was right to think it twice over since it probably would ruin the stereo image.
But, as I say - the 6010cs's have 'woofers' which basically give me the bass and the mid range, whilst the tweeters give me a nice heightened stereo image and a much clearer pitch to the music.
Now, my only dilemma is trying to find out if they measure the actual surrounding casing of the speakers in my door panels (the room for the metal bezel) of the speaker (as in. 6.5") Or, if they measure 6.5" to the screw holes.
I really do hope they measure it to the outer casing of the speaker because I measured my car doors screw holes and they come in at around 5.5" and the outer bezel for the speaker comes in at 6.5".
Thanks again guys :)
swez on 11/22/2007 01:18:53
A typical 6.5", (165mm) speaker is the outer rim of the mounting lip benzel. The mounting holes are usually set in about 3/16-1/4" from the outer lip.
Most guys can use a simple adapter plate to change from OEM to aftermarket speakers, but we also look at door panel clearance when using deeper aftermarket speakers VS shallow depth OEM speakers. (Clearance for window and other door mechanicals is key)
As for the Infinity Ref 6010cs, that would be a good option in the front door panels if they fit in the OEM mount. If not, one can always drop to the 5.25" version, (130mm OD) and get very good results too.
The 5.25" version is the same idea, but low end frequency response of the woofer is not as robust as the 6.5". Here, we often use a separate subwoofer in the trunk/boot for the deep lows. (80 Hz and lower)
FYI: Deep bass and Midbass are pretty much omni-directional in nature. The low frequencies propagagte well within a given vehicle and in most cases, we cannot detect where the lows are coming from, (Directionality) and stereo imaging is not really an issue below 300 Hz.
When concerned about stereo imaging, we consider near field radiation patterns of a given speaker above 300 Hz. In most car speaker installs, we can get very good stereo imaging in the front stage above 300 Hz. The cone radiation patterns are pretty wide angle for Mids above 300 Hz, but above 3,000 Hz. (Tweeter range) the dispersion angle is more narrow and if we are not careful in tweeter location choices, the tweeters get overly beaming and too bright if we mount them high on the door panels and aim them at the drivers location.
To avoid listener fatigue, we often have to experiment with tweeter locations and aiming them for the best coverage. Many guys report excellent high frequency imaging when they mount the tweeters in the "A" Pillars and aim them toward the rear view mirror. Here, we get a nice reflective dispersion pattern off the curvature of the front windshield.
The other option is to mount the tweeters in the door panels and aim them to a location where most dome lights are located on the ceiling,m (Cabin roof) of the interior. A little experimentation will tell you what sounds best in a given install. To do this we use velcro or two sided tape as a temporary mounting aid.
Once we find the most pleasing twetter mounting location, then we can make it a permanent mount using the mounting hardware that comes in the tweeter mounting kit.
Got all that Josh?
Swez
I'm fairly new to the scene of audio car setup, and I'm not bigge on loud audio. I prefer quality.
Basically I'm very picky on stereo positioning and overall frequency range so that one band isn't taking over the other.
I currently have 2x 6x9's (infinity 9623i), they sound fantastic, but I would like some advice on the front car door speakers + tweeters before I make my next purchase for them.
As I see it, I have two options.
Firstly, I want tweeters at the top for a nice clear-cut stereo image on the peaks - so I'm going with component speakers.
Now, do I get the 6010i's, with the tweeters & two subs to go in the front door panels?.. or the other model (forgot what they're called) which have the same tweeters, only the car door speakers are mid-range?
To put it simply, what's best, 6x9's in parcel shelf better with tweeters + mid range front car door speakers - Or - 6x9's in parcel shelf with tweeters + sub front car door speakers?
Thanks so much.
Josh.
Replies (7)
Ash on 11/20/2007 21:47:29
Welcome to CK Joshier!
We have a very knowledgable group of people here that can help you with just about every aspect in car audio.
So you want sound quality, right? Going with Infinity should point you in that direction if implemented right.
An ideal SQ setup will mostly concentrate on the front stage and using the rears as surround only. In fact it's not uncommon to see some setups without a rear stage if positioned right. The use of one wide bandwidth sub (10" or 12") will do a good job in making the bass seem like it's coming from the front. Too many or too much and the bass in the rear will destroy the stage. You don't have to have subs up front to make it work. It just needs to blend good without peaks that will draw the ears back to the rear.
Going with a component set up front is a good choice, but usually because of the passive crossovers used for optimization. This doesn't mean a high quality coaxial won't work, for the point source of coaxials is actually deemed superior. In fact there are some coaxials that use outboard passive crossovers and can easily rival a nice comp set. All about improved phase/time delay to simulate live sound and staying true to the original recording.
A good comp set can do this too, but the tweeter placement/attenuation has to be considered heavily to keep the soundstage high if the midbass/midrange is kept in the lower doors. It mustn't sound separated from the midrange/midbass. Therefore not just any comp set will do if your'e going for pure sound quality. Crossover tweeter adjustments are almost a must.
It's also a good idea to stay with the same line of rears that your'e using to keep tonal balance.
So with that said what kind of vehicle is this going in? That will determine what your options are in matching the rears.
joshier on 11/21/2007 07:50:49
Peugeot, 306, 1993 model.
Thanks a lot for your reply. I have no idea what you mean by 'coaxial'.
Do you feel I should go with the component speakers which include the two subs in the front doors, or the components with the mid-range speakers in the front doors?..
The bass is nice at the back, but could be better. Then again, mid range speakers might help the overall stereo image. (I'm used to high quality headphones.. so having a nice stereo image is essential for me, and I'm not sure if the tweeters alone would cut it)
Thanks again.
jamesp on 11/21/2007 10:11:12
Joshier, welcome to CK. I have a question for you that may help clarify a point so the knowledgable guys can steer you in the right direction.
When you refer to: Quote" should go with the component speakers which include the two subs in the front doors"" are you confusing the woofers that come in the component set with SUB woofers or are you intending to mount sub woofers in the doors with your component woofer and tweeter set?
Not trying to be picky here...just need to understand what you have in mind.
swez on 11/21/2007 11:43:16
To help clarify, larger format door and parcel shelf speaker are often call Woofers,Midbass or full range speakers.
A well made 6.5" component style woofer can do a very good job between 60 - 3,000 Hz. Above that, we use a tweeter. Below that range, we use speakers called subwoofers to handle the deep bass only. (30-100 Hz is a common range for subs)
Coaxials are speaker designs that have 2,3 or even 4 speaker elements all in one chassis. Your 6x9's noted are 3-way coaxials. Like these:
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=52000&i=107DB651S&tp=95
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=52300&i=1089623I&tp=91
Coaxials are good for front and rear stage use, easy to install and some come with outboard crossovers. If a person wants high end audio performance in the front stage, they'll often opt for Component type speakers like these:
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=52000&i=108607CS&tp=95
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=52000&i=107MMC6500&tp=95
If you are planning to amp these speakers w/ outboard amplification, consider the 2 ohm Comps for the front stage. If using the internal amps on the Radio in the dash, a 4 ohm pair is needed.
More later... just digest what's been put out there on the table now and we'll walk you through other details as needed.
Swez
PS Welcome to CK! SMILE
joshier on 11/21/2007 15:02:14
Thanks a lot for your replies.
I know a lot about frequencies, but not so much about the optimum position for each type of speaker within my car - or even the best speaker for a certain position.
I actually have the speakers in the second link you posted Swez.
Trouble is, I'm not sure if I should get the 6010cs ( http://www.crutchfield.com/S-99kJ19Y5njm/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?I=1086010cs ) Now, I have found these very cheap on ebay.co.uk so I'm very tempted, though as far as I can see - these are only sub woofers and tweeters.
Or, if I should get a same type of set, only with the speakers mid-range?
Thanks a lot.
joshier on 11/21/2007 15:40:09
OK, just to mention, I think I have found out what I've been getting in a ca-fuddle with!
I associated all 'woofers' with 'subwoofer/woofers' in that I thought 'woofers' were the ones producing just the subbass (below 200hz for example).Instead I now realize that a 'woofer' is capable of (and I quote) "40 hertz up to about a kilohertz or higher." - wikipedia ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woofer
This is why I was concerned about my stereo image if I only have tweeters by my head, with only "subwoofers" in the door panels. I guess I was right to think it twice over since it probably would ruin the stereo image.
But, as I say - the 6010cs's have 'woofers' which basically give me the bass and the mid range, whilst the tweeters give me a nice heightened stereo image and a much clearer pitch to the music.
Now, my only dilemma is trying to find out if they measure the actual surrounding casing of the speakers in my door panels (the room for the metal bezel) of the speaker (as in. 6.5") Or, if they measure 6.5" to the screw holes.
I really do hope they measure it to the outer casing of the speaker because I measured my car doors screw holes and they come in at around 5.5" and the outer bezel for the speaker comes in at 6.5".
Thanks again guys :)
swez on 11/22/2007 01:18:53
A typical 6.5", (165mm) speaker is the outer rim of the mounting lip benzel. The mounting holes are usually set in about 3/16-1/4" from the outer lip.
Most guys can use a simple adapter plate to change from OEM to aftermarket speakers, but we also look at door panel clearance when using deeper aftermarket speakers VS shallow depth OEM speakers. (Clearance for window and other door mechanicals is key)
As for the Infinity Ref 6010cs, that would be a good option in the front door panels if they fit in the OEM mount. If not, one can always drop to the 5.25" version, (130mm OD) and get very good results too.
The 5.25" version is the same idea, but low end frequency response of the woofer is not as robust as the 6.5". Here, we often use a separate subwoofer in the trunk/boot for the deep lows. (80 Hz and lower)
FYI: Deep bass and Midbass are pretty much omni-directional in nature. The low frequencies propagagte well within a given vehicle and in most cases, we cannot detect where the lows are coming from, (Directionality) and stereo imaging is not really an issue below 300 Hz.
When concerned about stereo imaging, we consider near field radiation patterns of a given speaker above 300 Hz. In most car speaker installs, we can get very good stereo imaging in the front stage above 300 Hz. The cone radiation patterns are pretty wide angle for Mids above 300 Hz, but above 3,000 Hz. (Tweeter range) the dispersion angle is more narrow and if we are not careful in tweeter location choices, the tweeters get overly beaming and too bright if we mount them high on the door panels and aim them at the drivers location.
To avoid listener fatigue, we often have to experiment with tweeter locations and aiming them for the best coverage. Many guys report excellent high frequency imaging when they mount the tweeters in the "A" Pillars and aim them toward the rear view mirror. Here, we get a nice reflective dispersion pattern off the curvature of the front windshield.
The other option is to mount the tweeters in the door panels and aim them to a location where most dome lights are located on the ceiling,m (Cabin roof) of the interior. A little experimentation will tell you what sounds best in a given install. To do this we use velcro or two sided tape as a temporary mounting aid.
Once we find the most pleasing twetter mounting location, then we can make it a permanent mount using the mounting hardware that comes in the tweeter mounting kit.
Got all that Josh?
Swez
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