Hi again guys,
In my quest for more spl and sq. I have come to a crossroad. I currently have a 10 inch Type S DVC sub in a sealed box. My current Kenwood amp 8101D sucks a lot of power and just doesnt sound nice. Thus, I have a couple setups I am thinking of:
I have a Dragster 2 ch amp which gives me 135w x 2 @ 2ohms. I would hook this up to two 10 inch JLw0-4's (( the older black ones) in a sealed box.
Or
I would just buy an Alpine MRP M450 amp and hook that up to my current DVC Type S at 2ohms and maybe that will work.
Or
I know someone selling a Planet Audio vx400d with a 12 inch Kicker Comp VR sub in a sealed box.
So, what do you guys think would be the best choice? All of these options will cost me about the same, plus or minus 50 bucks. So its more about what will make the most difference.
As you may know, i am looking for an efficient system that wont juice up to much power. I would like to hear a variety of base tones unlike my current setup which seems to go soft on certain bass tones. Any advice is appreciated!
Replies (24)
gsandha99 on 11/15/2007 13:49:32
Oh, and feel free to mix and match the items in these groups.
Ash on 11/15/2007 14:48:59
The box and sub combo makes a big difference in the end result. How big is the box the Alpine is in? One single 10" is good for sound quality and if it's tuned right will sound pretty good.
If your looking for more spl then you need to move more air. The easiest way to do that is add more woofers, but at the same time you may have to add more power too.
Another option is to use a ported enclosure. Here you get similar results as if adding another sub, plus you can extend the range the sub plays. I would try that before changing anything.
swez on 11/16/2007 06:00:14
Right !!! Most well known brands will do a pretty good job when optimized to their full potential with other components in the system.
We try to look for good efficiency numbers on speakers and subs in order to get more SPL from smaller amplifiers. A good efficiency number would be 88 - 92dB SPL @ 2.83 volts.
Any sub that is spec'd at 88 or higher, can do a very good job of putting out bass with a modest amp package. The Dayton Quatro subs mentioned earlier by Ash are solid products for SQL applications. They are a very good daily driver sub, when paired w/ a well matched box and amp.
Swez
PS Have used a number of PE items over the years and find them to be a very good value, well priced and excellent support as/if needed.
Ash on 11/16/2007 07:59:27
Ditto there Swez....
That Alpine is a good sub nonetheless, but it touts a mere 84db sensitivity rating. Not very efficient even if at 1 watt/ 1 meter. To bring the output of this sub up another 3db try it in a ported enclosure tuned around 35-39hz. The added efficiency and lower rolloff just may be the sound you're looking for.
Depending on what you listen to, there are several musical genres that play better with that type of setup (rap, hard rock, r&b).
gsandha99 on 11/16/2007 11:34:41
lol...thanks guys!...but umm....you guys didnt make a choice from the three i gave you!
Im leaning towards the first or third choice because im change the whole package. Im just not too sure about that Planet Audio amp and if it is efficient power wise. I dont want another juice monkey of an amp.
So 1,2 or 3 guys????
Ash on 11/16/2007 12:27:39
In a nutshell, what we were saying is that you will get the same difference changing amps on the same sub in the same box you are running now.
However, you will be able drastically change the way the sub is playing now by using a ported enclosure, no matter if you change amps (within same wattage range). It is more than likely the sub/box that is not letting it perform. Porting will net more spl with less watts. Try it and see if it comes alive.
A $20-30 cost of building another box I think would be worth finding out before ditching it.
But if you're into a whole another setup why not completely match one?
gsandha99 on 11/16/2007 13:25:58
Thats true ash,
However, because of spacial constraints and the fact that i just cant stand ported enclosures, lol, i dont want to go with that.
THe other options i have listed is because i know people that are selling those components for a good price, as i cant go out and buy new sets at the moment.
So do you guys think that the 2 JL's (even though they are not heavy duty) with my dragster amp will make a difference compared to my current 1 sub setup? I am leaning towards that option.
Ash on 11/16/2007 14:22:27
Don't know anything about Dragster to be honest with you. Have you ever find a link on that one (model #). I remember something on another post, but when I checked it out info was rather vague. What is the fuse rating on it and does it give any other info?
As for the JL's, are these the ones you're talking about?
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/pdfs/10W4_BDS.pdf
Single voice coils, right? Those aren't a bad deal. With two you should have a sensitivity of at least 89db to start. Figure rolloffs in the 50hz range. With the lean power handling they should work with just about any amp in that range. Yes, I think you will definitely have more output.
gsandha99 on 11/16/2007 14:45:34
Thanks ash....and guess what...i just found a Soundstream rubicon 502 for a hundred bucks....what do you think with this baby powering those subs?
Ash on 11/16/2007 15:31:36
The Rubicon series was a pretty good one that I remember. From looking at the manual, that amp is 2 ohm stable bridged. However, it doesn't state wether the rated power is peak or rms. I would like to think that from Soundstream it is rms. With only two 20 amp fuses is hard to say.
http://www.soundstream.com/manuals/AMP/rubicon302_502_1002.pdf
Those are single voice coil JL's right?
gsandha99 on 11/16/2007 16:49:49
Yes thats right....So how would i wire them to get 2ch at 2 ohms?
is that possible?
what would be the best way to wire them?
Ash on 11/16/2007 17:52:11
Unfortunately, you can't.
In order to get them to a 2 ohm load, you would connect in parallel (positive (amp) to positive to both subs/ negative amp to both subs negative).
So you can see that can only be made with a single channel on the amp. With a two channel amp it will not net the desired power in this case. Your only choice would be a 2 ohm stable bridged amp (high current) or a decent class D mono amp. There are some class A/B mono amps, but they aren't usually worth it as they are power hogs.
Again, try them out on the Kenwood and see how you like them, that is if your'e definitely going to get the JL's. Ouput should be better because you will move more air from doubling the cone area and the JL subs are more efficient.
I see your dillema with the amp as it isn't the cleanest nor the powerful of the bunch. I did check it's ratings which is not that great for a class d.
http://www.kenwoodaudio.com/Gulf/prodDetails.asp?Cat=Car%20Entertainment&SubCat=Power%20Amplifiers&Model=KAC-8101D
It's distortion ratings are up there. Most of it's 2 ohm and 1 ohm power is at 100hz. At a wider or lower frequency response it probably is down quite a bit. Just not that great of a amp for class d.
Perhaps some of the fellas got a idea on what to do..... With money slim, you don't have much of a choice at the moment. However saving up a few extra bucks should get you what you need, for 400 watts rms @ 2 ohms is relatively inexpensive.
gsandha99 on 11/16/2007 18:18:13
Hey ash,
THe boys at soundstream never dissapoint. I looked at the manual and this amp is stable at 2ohm bridged!. how would i wire it though?
Ash on 11/16/2007 18:54:03
Look at the 2 single voice coils in parallel chart at top right.
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=160
gsandha99 on 11/17/2007 03:53:46
Great..thanks ash.
I had a little problem...i broke one of the RCA output cable's end that goes into the sub amp. I am thinking i can just buy some othe RCA's and cut the end of the other and then crimp it to the old one.
Does this make sense cuz i dont want to have to run a whole new RCA cable through the system.
swez on 11/17/2007 05:14:48
Yes, you can buy quality RCA plugs, (Male cable ends) and cut off the damaged one/pair and solder up new ones. Don't use the cheap plastic ones as they just don't hold up.
PE has a nice selection of color coded sets you can use: (Red and black)
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=091-050
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=091-055
Some are physical crimp only plugs. But the better ones have solderable tip/claw and built in strain relief tabs. These are best and when soldered properly, they have no signal losses. (Use 60/40 alloy, rosin core solder here) A 25 watt soldering pencil is plenty good too.
Do you know how to solder electrical components well?
Swez
gsandha99 on 11/19/2007 10:20:59
Thanks Swez,
Because i live in canada, i dont know if this site will deliver. I called my local car audio shop that i usually deal with and they told me that running new RCA's shouldnt be a big deal. Of course not, when im paying them lol. But ive learned its never a bad idea to get the job done right. And this way, i can get them to put better, higher class RCA's in as i just bought the Soundstream Rubicon 502 for myself..mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......
Ill let you guys know how it goes.
I want to know peoples opinions though....In general, assuming that the subs are the exact same brand etc, what is a better setup and why.....a pair of 10's or a pair of 12's?
Ash on 11/19/2007 15:29:20
That would be highly difficult to answer. There are many variables. For one are you looking for lower end output? Most impact and overall SPL? Would both subs have the same power handling and amp running them (of course that was what you were asking)?
Clearly off top, you could guess that the 12" would move more air and therefore be somewhat louder with lower bass. At the same time a 10" in a larger box if accomodated, could get just as low or lower.
Another aspect which is debatable, is definition. Will the smaller of the two be quicker due to less cone mass matched to the same magnet assembly? Thus making for a more efficient sub that can lead to an better sounding woofer overall. Will the larger be sluggish due to higher cone mass and not enough motor?
You should choose a subwoofer/box combo for projected output in a given space. Sometimes putting too large of a sub in a small cabin can lead to a irregular response. Then again, is the exaggeration what the person is looking for?
Which will mate better with the particular vehicle? Large sub in a small box (high Q)? Or a smaller sub in a bigger box (low Q)?
Not trying to be a smart alec, but this is why you will see some small formats outdoing some large ones. It's not about how much, sometimes it's about how well it is mated. To really find out that one, a simple frequency plot (transfer function measurement) would make the difference between hit & miss.
gsandha99 on 11/19/2007 17:08:39
Nice. Do you have a personal preference?
And, is it me? or do RCA's have a positive, negative and neutral wire in them?
Ash on 11/19/2007 17:39:14
I prefer the sound of smaller subs in low Q's if they can take it.
With my choices in music it's hard finding the best as there is always a genre will not be optimized on the subwoofer.
I've had ported which plays good with most music except bass tracks. Then sealed which is just cleaner but lacks impact and thump on old skool hip hop. You basically got to opt for the one that will play best with the majority music you listen to.
These just my opinion which I've had:
1. Dual 10's are very good for SQL in open cabs like stationwagons and medium suvs.
2. One 10" in small sedans, coupes, and medium suvs for SQ.
3. Dual 8's for SQ in small hatchbacks.
4. Dual 8's in small to medium truck for SQL
SPL rigs:
As much cone area as you can fit which may mean going with a bunch of mighty midgets rather than 1 or 2 giants.
swez on 11/20/2007 04:19:22
Quality RCA signal wires often have a center wire, wrapped with a coaxial weave for the ground. Better wires even have a foil shield to further reduce noise intrusion. The foil wrap is an added insurance policy against external noise, but not always needed. (but it does help)
The ultimate combo used in High-End H/T and Pro audio is called the "balanced line" concept. Here, we have 2 wire pairs and a wrapped ground for shielding. This is very desirable when long signal cable runs of 30 meters or more are needed. (Mostly Pro Audio and some H/T apps) Here, the audio signal voltage is very low, but long cable runs are often needed.
Most car audio gear is not set up to take full advantage of the "balanced line" approach, so we are pretty much stuck with a coaxial ground and center wire option. In most cases, that's not a problem b/c we are working with higher signal line voltages and short cable runs. (under 5 meters in length)
The quality of the center conductor, it coaxial ground wrapping and perhaps a foil cover are plenty good if we are not too close to amp power cables and other noisey signal lines used in most Mobile Audio apps/
Got all that?
Swez
gsandha99 on 11/20/2007 12:28:38
Yup, That makes sense.
What i did was, instead of buying another set of RCA's and crimping one of the ends on, I bought a Y connector. So i stuck the RCA which was still good into one end and then other two RCA's into the amp like normal. This seems to work fine! I dont think it should make a difference. does this make sense? and will this be ok?
Also, what do you guys think will be a more efficient step to get more spl while keeping sq.
The two choices i feel that are best for me are, to put my current Type S 10inch DVC into a ported box instead of the sealed one which i have right now,
or,
Get two 10inch subs in a sealed box.....these new subs would be less powerfull then the type S. Probably around 150rms each. not sure what kind yet....
What do you guys think? any other suggestions? Is my RCA fix-up ok? or do i need to run new RCA's?
gsandha99 on 11/20/2007 12:31:31
http://www.installer.com/photos/mpc-i200y-1fs.jpg
this is the similar to the Y connector i used.
Ash on 11/20/2007 15:44:35
Can you build a box? That will be cheaper and you won't be sitting on extra gear that you may not need. If it doesn't work out then opt for the two 10".
In my quest for more spl and sq. I have come to a crossroad. I currently have a 10 inch Type S DVC sub in a sealed box. My current Kenwood amp 8101D sucks a lot of power and just doesnt sound nice. Thus, I have a couple setups I am thinking of:
I have a Dragster 2 ch amp which gives me 135w x 2 @ 2ohms. I would hook this up to two 10 inch JLw0-4's (( the older black ones) in a sealed box.
Or
I would just buy an Alpine MRP M450 amp and hook that up to my current DVC Type S at 2ohms and maybe that will work.
Or
I know someone selling a Planet Audio vx400d with a 12 inch Kicker Comp VR sub in a sealed box.
So, what do you guys think would be the best choice? All of these options will cost me about the same, plus or minus 50 bucks. So its more about what will make the most difference.
As you may know, i am looking for an efficient system that wont juice up to much power. I would like to hear a variety of base tones unlike my current setup which seems to go soft on certain bass tones. Any advice is appreciated!
Replies (24)
gsandha99 on 11/15/2007 13:49:32
Oh, and feel free to mix and match the items in these groups.
Ash on 11/15/2007 14:48:59
The box and sub combo makes a big difference in the end result. How big is the box the Alpine is in? One single 10" is good for sound quality and if it's tuned right will sound pretty good.
If your looking for more spl then you need to move more air. The easiest way to do that is add more woofers, but at the same time you may have to add more power too.
Another option is to use a ported enclosure. Here you get similar results as if adding another sub, plus you can extend the range the sub plays. I would try that before changing anything.
swez on 11/16/2007 06:00:14
Right !!! Most well known brands will do a pretty good job when optimized to their full potential with other components in the system.
We try to look for good efficiency numbers on speakers and subs in order to get more SPL from smaller amplifiers. A good efficiency number would be 88 - 92dB SPL @ 2.83 volts.
Any sub that is spec'd at 88 or higher, can do a very good job of putting out bass with a modest amp package. The Dayton Quatro subs mentioned earlier by Ash are solid products for SQL applications. They are a very good daily driver sub, when paired w/ a well matched box and amp.
Swez
PS Have used a number of PE items over the years and find them to be a very good value, well priced and excellent support as/if needed.
Ash on 11/16/2007 07:59:27
Ditto there Swez....
That Alpine is a good sub nonetheless, but it touts a mere 84db sensitivity rating. Not very efficient even if at 1 watt/ 1 meter. To bring the output of this sub up another 3db try it in a ported enclosure tuned around 35-39hz. The added efficiency and lower rolloff just may be the sound you're looking for.
Depending on what you listen to, there are several musical genres that play better with that type of setup (rap, hard rock, r&b).
gsandha99 on 11/16/2007 11:34:41
lol...thanks guys!...but umm....you guys didnt make a choice from the three i gave you!
Im leaning towards the first or third choice because im change the whole package. Im just not too sure about that Planet Audio amp and if it is efficient power wise. I dont want another juice monkey of an amp.
So 1,2 or 3 guys????
Ash on 11/16/2007 12:27:39
In a nutshell, what we were saying is that you will get the same difference changing amps on the same sub in the same box you are running now.
However, you will be able drastically change the way the sub is playing now by using a ported enclosure, no matter if you change amps (within same wattage range). It is more than likely the sub/box that is not letting it perform. Porting will net more spl with less watts. Try it and see if it comes alive.
A $20-30 cost of building another box I think would be worth finding out before ditching it.
But if you're into a whole another setup why not completely match one?
gsandha99 on 11/16/2007 13:25:58
Thats true ash,
However, because of spacial constraints and the fact that i just cant stand ported enclosures, lol, i dont want to go with that.
THe other options i have listed is because i know people that are selling those components for a good price, as i cant go out and buy new sets at the moment.
So do you guys think that the 2 JL's (even though they are not heavy duty) with my dragster amp will make a difference compared to my current 1 sub setup? I am leaning towards that option.
Ash on 11/16/2007 14:22:27
Don't know anything about Dragster to be honest with you. Have you ever find a link on that one (model #). I remember something on another post, but when I checked it out info was rather vague. What is the fuse rating on it and does it give any other info?
As for the JL's, are these the ones you're talking about?
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/pdfs/10W4_BDS.pdf
Single voice coils, right? Those aren't a bad deal. With two you should have a sensitivity of at least 89db to start. Figure rolloffs in the 50hz range. With the lean power handling they should work with just about any amp in that range. Yes, I think you will definitely have more output.
gsandha99 on 11/16/2007 14:45:34
Thanks ash....and guess what...i just found a Soundstream rubicon 502 for a hundred bucks....what do you think with this baby powering those subs?
Ash on 11/16/2007 15:31:36
The Rubicon series was a pretty good one that I remember. From looking at the manual, that amp is 2 ohm stable bridged. However, it doesn't state wether the rated power is peak or rms. I would like to think that from Soundstream it is rms. With only two 20 amp fuses is hard to say.
http://www.soundstream.com/manuals/AMP/rubicon302_502_1002.pdf
Those are single voice coil JL's right?
gsandha99 on 11/16/2007 16:49:49
Yes thats right....So how would i wire them to get 2ch at 2 ohms?
is that possible?
what would be the best way to wire them?
Ash on 11/16/2007 17:52:11
Unfortunately, you can't.
In order to get them to a 2 ohm load, you would connect in parallel (positive (amp) to positive to both subs/ negative amp to both subs negative).
So you can see that can only be made with a single channel on the amp. With a two channel amp it will not net the desired power in this case. Your only choice would be a 2 ohm stable bridged amp (high current) or a decent class D mono amp. There are some class A/B mono amps, but they aren't usually worth it as they are power hogs.
Again, try them out on the Kenwood and see how you like them, that is if your'e definitely going to get the JL's. Ouput should be better because you will move more air from doubling the cone area and the JL subs are more efficient.
I see your dillema with the amp as it isn't the cleanest nor the powerful of the bunch. I did check it's ratings which is not that great for a class d.
http://www.kenwoodaudio.com/Gulf/prodDetails.asp?Cat=Car%20Entertainment&SubCat=Power%20Amplifiers&Model=KAC-8101D
It's distortion ratings are up there. Most of it's 2 ohm and 1 ohm power is at 100hz. At a wider or lower frequency response it probably is down quite a bit. Just not that great of a amp for class d.
Perhaps some of the fellas got a idea on what to do..... With money slim, you don't have much of a choice at the moment. However saving up a few extra bucks should get you what you need, for 400 watts rms @ 2 ohms is relatively inexpensive.
gsandha99 on 11/16/2007 18:18:13
Hey ash,
THe boys at soundstream never dissapoint. I looked at the manual and this amp is stable at 2ohm bridged!. how would i wire it though?
Ash on 11/16/2007 18:54:03
Look at the 2 single voice coils in parallel chart at top right.
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=160
gsandha99 on 11/17/2007 03:53:46
Great..thanks ash.
I had a little problem...i broke one of the RCA output cable's end that goes into the sub amp. I am thinking i can just buy some othe RCA's and cut the end of the other and then crimp it to the old one.
Does this make sense cuz i dont want to have to run a whole new RCA cable through the system.
swez on 11/17/2007 05:14:48
Yes, you can buy quality RCA plugs, (Male cable ends) and cut off the damaged one/pair and solder up new ones. Don't use the cheap plastic ones as they just don't hold up.
PE has a nice selection of color coded sets you can use: (Red and black)
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=091-050
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=091-055
Some are physical crimp only plugs. But the better ones have solderable tip/claw and built in strain relief tabs. These are best and when soldered properly, they have no signal losses. (Use 60/40 alloy, rosin core solder here) A 25 watt soldering pencil is plenty good too.
Do you know how to solder electrical components well?
Swez
gsandha99 on 11/19/2007 10:20:59
Thanks Swez,
Because i live in canada, i dont know if this site will deliver. I called my local car audio shop that i usually deal with and they told me that running new RCA's shouldnt be a big deal. Of course not, when im paying them lol. But ive learned its never a bad idea to get the job done right. And this way, i can get them to put better, higher class RCA's in as i just bought the Soundstream Rubicon 502 for myself..mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......
Ill let you guys know how it goes.
I want to know peoples opinions though....In general, assuming that the subs are the exact same brand etc, what is a better setup and why.....a pair of 10's or a pair of 12's?
Ash on 11/19/2007 15:29:20
That would be highly difficult to answer. There are many variables. For one are you looking for lower end output? Most impact and overall SPL? Would both subs have the same power handling and amp running them (of course that was what you were asking)?
Clearly off top, you could guess that the 12" would move more air and therefore be somewhat louder with lower bass. At the same time a 10" in a larger box if accomodated, could get just as low or lower.
Another aspect which is debatable, is definition. Will the smaller of the two be quicker due to less cone mass matched to the same magnet assembly? Thus making for a more efficient sub that can lead to an better sounding woofer overall. Will the larger be sluggish due to higher cone mass and not enough motor?
You should choose a subwoofer/box combo for projected output in a given space. Sometimes putting too large of a sub in a small cabin can lead to a irregular response. Then again, is the exaggeration what the person is looking for?
Which will mate better with the particular vehicle? Large sub in a small box (high Q)? Or a smaller sub in a bigger box (low Q)?
Not trying to be a smart alec, but this is why you will see some small formats outdoing some large ones. It's not about how much, sometimes it's about how well it is mated. To really find out that one, a simple frequency plot (transfer function measurement) would make the difference between hit & miss.
gsandha99 on 11/19/2007 17:08:39
Nice. Do you have a personal preference?
And, is it me? or do RCA's have a positive, negative and neutral wire in them?
Ash on 11/19/2007 17:39:14
I prefer the sound of smaller subs in low Q's if they can take it.
With my choices in music it's hard finding the best as there is always a genre will not be optimized on the subwoofer.
I've had ported which plays good with most music except bass tracks. Then sealed which is just cleaner but lacks impact and thump on old skool hip hop. You basically got to opt for the one that will play best with the majority music you listen to.
These just my opinion which I've had:
1. Dual 10's are very good for SQL in open cabs like stationwagons and medium suvs.
2. One 10" in small sedans, coupes, and medium suvs for SQ.
3. Dual 8's for SQ in small hatchbacks.
4. Dual 8's in small to medium truck for SQL
SPL rigs:
As much cone area as you can fit which may mean going with a bunch of mighty midgets rather than 1 or 2 giants.
swez on 11/20/2007 04:19:22
Quality RCA signal wires often have a center wire, wrapped with a coaxial weave for the ground. Better wires even have a foil shield to further reduce noise intrusion. The foil wrap is an added insurance policy against external noise, but not always needed. (but it does help)
The ultimate combo used in High-End H/T and Pro audio is called the "balanced line" concept. Here, we have 2 wire pairs and a wrapped ground for shielding. This is very desirable when long signal cable runs of 30 meters or more are needed. (Mostly Pro Audio and some H/T apps) Here, the audio signal voltage is very low, but long cable runs are often needed.
Most car audio gear is not set up to take full advantage of the "balanced line" approach, so we are pretty much stuck with a coaxial ground and center wire option. In most cases, that's not a problem b/c we are working with higher signal line voltages and short cable runs. (under 5 meters in length)
The quality of the center conductor, it coaxial ground wrapping and perhaps a foil cover are plenty good if we are not too close to amp power cables and other noisey signal lines used in most Mobile Audio apps/
Got all that?
Swez
gsandha99 on 11/20/2007 12:28:38
Yup, That makes sense.
What i did was, instead of buying another set of RCA's and crimping one of the ends on, I bought a Y connector. So i stuck the RCA which was still good into one end and then other two RCA's into the amp like normal. This seems to work fine! I dont think it should make a difference. does this make sense? and will this be ok?
Also, what do you guys think will be a more efficient step to get more spl while keeping sq.
The two choices i feel that are best for me are, to put my current Type S 10inch DVC into a ported box instead of the sealed one which i have right now,
or,
Get two 10inch subs in a sealed box.....these new subs would be less powerfull then the type S. Probably around 150rms each. not sure what kind yet....
What do you guys think? any other suggestions? Is my RCA fix-up ok? or do i need to run new RCA's?
gsandha99 on 11/20/2007 12:31:31
http://www.installer.com/photos/mpc-i200y-1fs.jpg
this is the similar to the Y connector i used.
Ash on 11/20/2007 15:44:35
Can you build a box? That will be cheaper and you won't be sitting on extra gear that you may not need. If it doesn't work out then opt for the two 10".
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