If you know me by now, you would 've expect me to be trying something else. My new setup is kind of out of days gone past. However, going on the advice of a old friend who went into the painting business for himself it made sense.
His advice was that knowing how the young guys like their gear loud and powerful (bass anyway); I should do one myself to show that I'm capable of that aspect as well. Then maybe it will get them to bite more. That made sense since someone is always showing me their latest setup.
So now I have acquired a infamous BP1200.1 to install. After some recent testing & approval of two 250 rms 10" subs that I got for very cheap, I decided to run 3-4 of these on that amp.
Finding a suitable amp was hard as I still plan on running the AC DSQ unit recently installed. As you know that unit already has a built in x-over and finding a high power class D amp with a defeatable x-over is almost impossible. The only solution was one that had a shallow slope (12db) with a high enough point (320 hz on the JBL) so that it would have less interference.
The subs aren't anything special with a 8mm xmax, yet they are somewhat efficient (88 db @ 8 ohms each) with a nice FS (25hz) and take a small box of about .5 ft^3 for a Qtc of .8.
I don't expect to blow any real competition vehicle out of the water, but I do expect to have some pretty good SPL with a fair amount of SQ. This also should knock out a good amount of some of the crap I've seen installed.
Do you think I should run all 4 or should 3 be enough to impress? THINK
Running 3 in parallel should net a 2.7 ohm load. Not sure how much will that draw from the amp. 4 will be definitely 2 ohms which nets 1000 rms handling and I'm very sure the JBL will push them to the max. Gains will have to be carefully adjusted to keep from blowing them. I doubt I will need to pull the full potential out of that amp running efficient subs, yet the headroom will be nice to have.
I expect between this weekend and next week, it should be up and running. Until then. gotta figure how the box will be.
Keepya posted......
Ash
Replies (37)
ttocs on 11/13/2007 09:01:36
I would try to design the box so that if I wanted to I could add the 4th sub to the end of it and see what I like the best.........
Ash on 11/13/2007 09:11:44
You mean like an add on separate box? Not a bad idea if that's what your'e talking about. Could later be attached permantly from the inside with some glue sandwhiched in between if wanted.
I'll consider that.....
Victor on 11/14/2007 02:07:15
Along with SQ and SPL, I'd urge you to consider the aesthetics of this system if you're thinking of using this as a demo setup...
some fiberglassing as well as some lighting would be some added attraction and also showcase your ability in fabrication too...
Victor...
Ash on 11/14/2007 03:30:27
Good point there Vic. Anyone can do a shoddy install, but doing a proper one that looks nice and blends with the interior is a horse of a different color.
I was kinda leaving the fiberglass work for the Dayton 10" I have in there now. With it's micro enclosure requirements (.35 ft^3), it would fit nicely in the rear passenger side pocket for a stealthy install.
The SPL setup will only be temporary as I'm a little past that stage. Just got to show them youngsters that an "older Kat can still scratch".
Once I've had my fun and proven myself, then it will be back to strictly SQ in my ride. The amp will stay though......
swez on 11/14/2007 18:55:59
Yeah, make a statement about creativity, good design engineering and the ability for flex as design/space parameters fit.
One thing to remember about the JBL 1200.1, it is 1 or 2 ohm stable and over-rated a bit too. (12.9 volts as I recall, not 14.4 volts) So, designing and fabrication for 2, 3 or 4 woofers if possible. Looks are a nice touch for your demo, but how much will your customers value asthethetic VS bomming, tight bass?
Think it over since the guys you will be impressing are probably on tight budgets? It all good, but you may wind up doing a lot of sound dampening here too.
Swez
Ash on 11/14/2007 19:04:49
The subs that I will be using will suprise them enough. Four 10's in a 2 ft^3 box? They won't have a clue. If they even found out that I got them on closeout, then they might just shoot me. I'm even ashamed to tell on here how little I payed.
I don't want to get overworked doing cosmetics on this one. If it were to permanent then I could see. For now, there's a few I need to knock down a peg or two. Then maybe they will understand that I don't just build SQ rigs.
swez on 11/14/2007 19:20:52
I'm with ya bro... am an SQ fan period. But out market is not just SQ. You can show them SQL and see how that flies, but some are SPL nuts and we would have a hard time meeting just that need on a modest budget.
For now, if adding many clients is your goal, take off the audiophile hat and let them eat cake. But if you wish to specialize, then plan on a limited target market... loud yes, but it may sound great to them, but to us, we know it sounds like "Hammered Schnitz".
It's does not have to be a "perfect world" to make a good buck for most SPL guys.
Swez
PS What PE drivers/woofers are you working with?
Ash on 11/14/2007 19:37:54
Not PE, Credence.
Remember "lilschtive"? The problems he was having finding replacement 10's for his truck? I can't remember what he got after that, but that was his loss.
I directed him to these particular subs that were like only 30 bucks or so, yet he was so stuck on some used JL's. Well I got them and tested them and there you go....
http://credencespeakers.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CSI&Product_Code=BN108&Category_Code=BO
Another old company that these new guys don't even have a clue about.
SQLThump on 11/18/2007 19:36:22
That seems like a killer system plan there Ash. 4 10's and only 2 cubes of space could definitely make a statement, as well as the use of the 8 ohm in the mobile application. Definitely a good wat to go about things when making a point.
As a younger guy, slowly growing older, heres my take on the subject.....
1200 watts will definitely turn just about anybody's head my age. Especially when somebody who knows what they are doing hooks it up.
In terms of numbers, 4 sometimes seems like a magical number for round things. Like "I ate 4 donuts" or t"hats a group of 4 nice round booties" or "I got 4 10's in the ride" I dunno, but to me, and to kids my age, it seems to click.
This is kind of like the opposite of what my systyem build goal is. I find myself a maturing young dude, and the ears of myself and my projected customers leans more to an SQ steup. This will kind of me my attempt to show the oldsters that junior can do SQ.
As for making it flashy and visually pleasing, if this isn't a permanent rig, I wouldnt go there. Fun neon lights are being banned in some areas of the country, but I hear Florida is pretty lenient on the mobile electronice fan. Younger guys may be a little more impressed, but when it boils down to it, it's your ride, do what you want, don't let any of us young punks with their SPL rigs infleunce too heavily what you do to your vehicular environment.
But if you really wanted to show funtionality, mad bass, and some sick custom work, you could build door pods to house a 10" in each door. I am not too sure if that is possible to do .5cf3 enclosures in each door, but that would blow junior and his posse all the way back to the "Marky-Mark and the funky bunch"era.
Anyway I gotta split for now, Keep us posted!
swez on 11/18/2007 20:35:27
Hum, was looking at that site you mentioned Ash and see they have Pro Box Rocks subs too. (Cheap too... $40.00 each)
Blue Oval bought a single 10" in a ported design and powered it with a JL 500/1 and it does deliver the mail very well. Am shocked to see such a low price on a very good high performance woofer. (It kicks well with enough power)
Credence is also a solid lil pup and been around a long time. They even make MI/PA speakers too.
Good link to hang on to,
Swez
Ash on 11/19/2007 04:31:38
Yeah, I've been dealing with Credence for some time. Very solid products. People just don't realize how much the major brands are actually produced by another company.
That company is actually the producer for Kicker's better products from back in the day and some of the top gear now. Breeze through and you might see some products you recognize.
Just like the Dayton DVC 12" and the Adire Shiva were almost twins. Really made by Eminence, then tailored to the custormer's spec.
Now some newbs might say, "So what? Who cares?".... But if we can cut out the middle man sometimes, then we can see our dollars actually working.
swez on 11/19/2007 05:14:55
So true.... Eminence is a huge speaker maker for many other branded names. They have been in the biz for over 30 years and I used them back in the 70's for Bass Guitar and PA apps too.
They were a good product then and with new materials and technology tweaks, am sure they still do a great job for low budget systems and upper end gear as well.
Yes, general application speakers need not be overly expensive to get the job done. The chain of handlers between the maker and the end user is what rings up the price tag. (Or the brand name will)
The prices noted on that site are probably at cost or blow outs or slightly blemished, at just below cost to reduce inventory before tax time. That's when to buy and get the most bang for the buck.... NOT Christmas time shopping, but after the new year, the best deals are found.
Swez
Grdevs24zero on 11/22/2007 00:07:28
It's time like these that I worship you fellas that have been in the game longer than I have been alive. I'm curious to find out if subs like these could compare with the JL 10w6 I've been looking at for my SQ setup?
swez on 11/22/2007 01:35:21
Oh yeah... JL makes some great gear to be sure, But if one really understands the game well, we can get the same results and not have to pay the big name premium prices either.
The 10W6 is a solid woofer to be sure. If you have them now, just use the recommended enclosures and enough power to get them up to the levels of bass deired.
Are there more cost effective options? You bet and Ash has given a lot of time to test and compare lesser known brands that do deliver the mail. In most cases, we dont need to spend $200.00 or more on a solid subwoofer to get the desired results.
In a nutshell, our end results are about 80% install techinques and 20% gear choices. (Illuminating statement huh?) It takes time to figure all this out, but a guy on a limited budget can create a well above average sound system if they have the time and knowledge to do so.
Swez
Grdevs24zero on 11/22/2007 01:47:35
I'm all for the 80/20 split thing. The fun doesn't come in spending the money, the fun comes from designing, building, and perfecting.
I know how a speaker works, how different box designs help and how amps match, but I can't for the life of me discern the hazy line between super market trash and audiophile goodness.
But, it's not much money (I talk like I have a plantation that grows it) and I feel like learning today. So I figure I'll look into these subs bit more and give one of them a try. At the very least I'll learn something, and that's what I'm all about.
And just so I don't get this thread too OT, I'll comment on the imaging thing:
I've heard some very, VERY nice setups with 8" woofers in the doors, and tweeters mounted at the middle-top of the A-pillar aimed down to the knees of the person on the opposite side of the car. While I do not intend to put subs in the doors, I do intend to mount my tweeters up high, as in the stock locations in the doors much of the sound is ruined by both yours and your passengers legs. You can tell a large difference here simply by moving your legs to one side or the other while listening.
swez on 11/22/2007 02:06:42
Agreed and 100% with your thoughts/observations too.
Unfortunately, stock location are more for the ease of the auto maker. (But not optimal for the end-user) Audio quality is usually an after-thought at best, unless they partner with Aftermarket suppliers like RF, Infinity, Alpine, Boston and Bose. Even then, there are trade-offs to consider. A premium Audio System from the car dealer has a huge mark-up. We can pay through the nose and still have a just barely adequate system for that price.
Swez
Ash on 11/22/2007 14:50:33
"Zero", the "hazy line" is mostly on the user. True there is a lot of gear on the market that doesn't live up to what is claimed, however, having the knowledge to be able to manipulate cost effective products into something worth using is what's mostly lacked.
There's a lot of trial & error in dealing with that aspect. Creativity with the guts & stamina to see it through counts as well. That is just the problem... Many are not creative enough to stay away from trends that may hinder possibly good designs. Market trends aren't always best to follow.... Remember the influx of flashy see-thru bandpass boxes. True custom bandpasses aren't bad designs and can have more pros than cons in certain situations making them very useful. Yet, the label bandpass got a bad rep from the glitzy misaligned products put on the market to exploit those wanting one because of what they heard they can do. Most do not understand when or how to use a properly built one. Ported sometimes follows as well.
When I begin designing a system I look at a lot of options including stuff out of the "norm". I run the "numbers to at least see how it may perform, and then determine is it worth it. Still I keep the ideas available for other times when it will be useful. You still have to have a level head and use some common sense to know when you're going overboard.
Go ahead and try those subs. They're good, but do understand how and when to use them. Being 8 ohm negates running a pair off most monoblocks that are optimized at 2 ohm. Of course you don't want to run out and buy a powerful enough class d amp that will push them in 4 ohms. Kind of a waste to spend the money for the extra 2 ohm power your not going to use.
They're useful when using a bridged 2 channel amp, a high powered 4 channel amp running highs & lows, or running a amp in tri-mode with a single 8 ohm sub.
See how I came up with a few scenarios in which they can help?
Grdevs24zero on 11/22/2007 16:13:44
I was just reading through this thread again and I noticed I pulled the imaging statement from an entirely different thread it appears. Sorry if there was any confusion, been sick the past week and it's gettin to me :(
Thanks for the input there Ash, that cleared a few things up.
Ash on 11/23/2007 07:10:27
The JBL finally got here a few days ago (thursday I believe) and man.... Didn't know it was a monster. I mean I had the 300.1 for some time now, but this thing's mass is up there.
Kinda intimidating and at first glance I wondered "what have I gotten myself into"?!!! LOL... I played it safe and already had ordered a 200 amp HO alternator. Been needing a better anyway as mine was only 130. Still I hope that is enough.
Maybe this is a good time for Mr. B to give a quick brushup on duty cycles. Remember he posted a very informative thread a while back on it.
Waddaya say Mr. B?
Ash on 11/24/2007 07:33:43
Okay, during some holiday boredom, having some free time by avoiding the mad shopping spree that took place yesterday, I went ahead and built the enclosure.
After some deep thought, I decided to go with only 3 of the subs although I do have the 4th on hand. I figured that this should be more than enough to do some damage, but at the same time have real world applicable use. Even though the box would have been relatively small I did not have enough room to put all 4 in without a wacky build. I wanted to keep it simple and just rely on extra cone area.
After much deliberation, I chose a final net enclosure size of 1.757 ft^3 with a tad bit more than the recommended for some good extension. This included bracing (two 2 x 2 x 8.5") and sub displacement. Total airspace is 2.062 ft^3. Unstuffed the box renders a Qtc of .938. Stuffed heavily Bassbox predicts a Qtc down to .757. Dimensions are 36" width x 10" depth x 13.65" height.
This should actually fall into the SQL range, but knowing my vehicle's acoustic nature it will lend some good SPL as well. Predicted rolloff is around 46hz in a unstuffed box though there is a slight hump in the 60-100hz range.
I haven't put the subs in yet as it got dark when the glue was drying. I used Gorilla glue in the joints and then wood glue for sealing the inside seams. All screws were countersunk and outside seams sanded for good cosmetics. I might have enough scrap carpet to apply, but there is something attractive about naked wood with smooth finishes. Yes it is good to match the interior with carpet, but when you like to build you want people to see the quality you put into your works at least before you mask it.
swez on 11/24/2007 14:23:08
Dang, made a good post and it went away...
Recap: If you'd like to make a "Signature Series" box at this stage of the game, consider using real wood laminates or Formica. This is pretty easy to do with a good router, the proper bits and some Super 77 adhesive. The finish can be bold and flashy or subtle and classic. Pick a theme and run with it. The cost is a bit higher per sq ft, but the options are endless.
Note: If using either, plan on rubber feet at the bottom of the enclosure to keep it from sliding around in the cargo area as you drive. These can be had at PE in several sizes and materials.
Swez
Ash on 11/25/2007 09:49:40
You know dealing with PE a lot, I have often thought about that. Never really thought it would fly for people are just used to carpeted boxes. I honestly figured that they would think it was some home audio cabinet with subs stuck off in it. LOL!!
Truth is they have some very attractive laminates that will make it stand out. There are even some good spray paints that will make it look appealing.
By the way, finished the box and installed the subs last night. I took a impedance sweep and got a peak at 51hz. Not too far off from Bassbox's prediction considering I applied about 50% fill.
After wiring and some quick tuning, I say it is definitely a SQL setp. I only tried a few bass tracks which is not normal music content so retuning is probably in order. But it was impressively clean with more than enough spl to turn some heads. The low end was pretty deep but not muddy. I might can remove some of the fill to get a tad more impact up high, but I'll wait for another audition with some other genres because normally I would have to readjust the EQ for bass tracks.
Another funny but good thing is the light dimming wasn't as bad as with the other amp even though this amp is way more powerful. I believe running it at 2.66 ohms will work out good for both amp, subs, and electricals. Still want to install the new alternator when it comes this week.
Any newbs out there looking for a cheap "back massager" I suggest you try this same setup with a good amp. All you need is a amp capable of 500 rms watts at 4 ohm on a 2 ohm stable mono amp.
Grdevs24zero on 11/27/2007 18:12:22
Not to steal any more of your thunder Ash, but I've got a question regarding the Pro Box Rocks 12" that Swez commented on earlier.
Since it is a 4 ohm woofer, which I am just assuming seeing as how the model numbers seem to match the impedence, would it (just one) be a good match for a Rockford T400-2? I don't want to overpower the rest of the system by having more subs than I need. The specs are here:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_8893_Rockford+Fosgate+Power+T400-2.html
I've found a smokin deal on the amp (slightly used) locally, and if you guys think these will match up then I've got myself a sweet bass note for under $150 total. Happy is I.
swez on 11/28/2007 04:21:17
Yeah, this would be a nice setup as noted. That amp may be a bit hard on the current draw during heavy use, but from previous experience with a Pro Box sub, it's solid and gets even better after the sub breaks in a few days.
For the price, this would be an above average pairing as RF amps tend to be stronger than advertised. (Their birth sheets show the real power numbers to be notably better than the general specs shown)
Swez
PS Ash, if these subs sound this good now, I can't help but wonder if they will only go deeper after a good break-in period. Comments?
Ash on 11/28/2007 16:34:40
While I'm waiting for the break-in, can't help but think about the problems I've been having with this truck. In order to get a good low bass output, I've had to either use low Q's in the sealed department which can cut out impact. Or resort to large low tuned ported enclosures (30hz) that may affect quality on more musical tracks (jazz, old school R&B).
The best compact sub I had was the Dayton RS HO 10" in a low Q of .6. Now that I got it out of the truck I'll run a impedance sweep to confirm what's it set at. When I go back to my regular SQ setup, I think I will run two of them with the JBL amp.
Best SQL sub was the Dayton DVC 12" in a mid Q with F3's in the mid 40's. Running two of them would be quite powerful in a sealed 2.2 ft^3 box.
After fiddling with the eq I have found the 60hz range and related harmonics to be the most offensive. Porting down to 30's I believe will be a big help with the new subs as I doubt they can take similar power in a large box. Still in the experimental stage on these as I find the best combo for this truck. I think other vehicles would fair better with the current box.
This blazer is just horrible with speakers!
swez on 11/28/2007 19:28:12
Know what ya mean about the Blazer being a tough SUV to work with and agree 100%.
An old g/f has a 93 Blazer with 3.5" speakers in the dash and I believe 5.25" on the rear doors. I built a low Q sub box for her using a pair of PE 8's. (0.6 Q is my guess???)
The bass was much better than stock, but lacked the deep lows as you mention. This was a sealed sub enclosure and had good punch, but lacked the real deep lows you or I would want on some music formats.
Anyway, keep plugging away as there may be a few minor tweaks that would meet "picky guys" tastes like us.
Swez
PS I have a pair of Sound Stream SPL 10's on hand and loaded in a sealed box of 1.5 cf/sub. (Sealed) If I gave you the T/S parameters, would you mind running them on your bass modeling program and see what the best sealed box dimensions would be?
Right now, the Q is supposed to be ~ 0.7. But after more critical listening and time, I've got to think a smaller sealed box would still deliver good lows and snappy upper bass. (Right now, the deep lows are muddy and poorly defined) Have them crossed over at ~75 Hz, and that's not bad, but the deep lows are sloppy and basically YUCK.
Am sure it's the subs, but these were bought 6 years ago when DVC's were just hitting the market. (Am sure there is a better way to go with ~ 325 wRMS power, (Bridged) in this older JBL Decade Series 2 channel sub amp. (DA-1002)
Ash on 11/29/2007 17:20:29
No problem... Shouldn't take but a few minutes or so to give you some results. I'll post the changes for you so you can decide what you might want to try.
The SPL series were supposedly good subs depending on application. The problem with SQ is it's so demanding of a woofer to be able to play a wider range that something drastic will have to be sacrificed. There aren't many car audio subs that can render that and be cost effective too. I've found raw home audio drivers to best suited for the job, however they tend to lack the power handling and/or require large enclosures.
I guess we can't have it all, huh?
swez on 11/29/2007 17:51:54
So true and thanks for the helps. Do you need the T/S parameters for these SPL-10's? If so, I'll make a new post, give you the T/S numbers and ask that you run them through your Bass Pro program.
I realize there are some compromises to consider. These are pretty efficient subs, but older too and have some definite limitations. The goal is to tighten up the deep low bass, give solid punch, but not scrap them to the "dung heap". If this is not possible with this series, it's back to the drawing board!
Swez
PS Am willing to chop the present box, consider a different 10-12" sub or start from square 1.
Ash on 11/29/2007 18:11:37
Yeah, you better post them for they did make several versions though I'm not sure of what the differences were.
If you have a eq you may can go a bit smaller then cut back around 60 & 120hz to smooth things out a little. I've done that on several setups with the better results than other frequency adjustments. Say -2db on the 60hz to knock down the boominess. Then about -1 on 120hz to lower second order harmonics to further clean it up.
Still depends on your main choice of music. Playing something like Steely Dan I can play it flat. With old school east coast hip hop (which is mostly jazz based), the eq-ing can be applied. 40 & 80hz had the most effect, but tended to be undesirable as it took away too much low end and impact. May work for you though.
swez on 11/30/2007 01:54:17
Right, have plenty of EQ power available now. (30, 60 120, 240... 10 bands in all) As you say, it depends on the music genre and how the music was mixed. Anyway, here are the T/S paras:
Freq Resp: 32-500
Sens: 92 dB @ 2.83v/1m
Nominal Z: 2 Ohms (4+4 DVC)
Fs: 33 Fz
Qts: .528
Qes: .564
Qms: 8.31
EBP: 58.5
Vas: 1.5 ft^3
Bl: 7.06
Xmax: 6mm nom (one way linear) 19mm Peak, coil length = 23 mm
Power handling: 250 Wrms
After looking at this again, this sub will do ported or sealed well, has good linear response, high sensitivity 60-100 Hz and limited excursion to keep it efficient. If taking a stab at sealed optimal, it would probably be more like 0.65 - 0.8 cf/sub.
Keep in mind, when I bought them, (circa-1999) DVC's were a new convention and few vendors had yet to offer this coil configuration in that time frame. Using a 2 channel amp was practically the only option too. Class D amps were just coming into the game then too.
Frankly, I was a newbie to car audio woofer technology at this time as well. Yes, did my homework, but had limited knowledge and a very limited selection of options back then. What is now commonplace in today's considerable list of options, were not present in that time frame.
Swez
PS SS gave 2 recommended sealed configurations, 0.5 or 1.5 cf sealed for this sub. (SPL-10) I chose the larger for more deep bass and reasonable power handling of 175 RMS/sub in the larger box design. After years of flabby bass with this pairing, am ready to optimize these subs and scale back on enclosure size as well.
What say you? (And thanks for your help in advance) ;-)
Ash on 11/30/2007 15:55:36
Are you ready for this?
Those subs are clearly intended as labeled...SPL. Bassbox already has this one in it's database and the spec checker is right on with yours wired in parallel. I've ran both recommended boxes with plots in the auto environment with results in the high Q's.
A box of .5 each nets a Qtc of 1.24, ouch! But what's interesting is the out of car F3 is still around 44hz! A 1.5 ft^3 each box nets a Qtc of .99 with a F3 of 36hz?!!!!!
Both exhibited at least 2-3db (minimum) humps spread across the 50-70hz range in the normal frequency plot. Added to the car acoustical plot with a usual 12db rise starting around 50hz, you get a louder bottom end supposedely all the way out to about 18-20hz. Not very flat at all. Explains the bottom end muddiness, but at high Q's makes it intolerable for SQ.
You don't want to even discuss going in between or larger in a sealed as there is hardly any improvement over what you have them in now. Any ported box will wind up with a very large peak at the low end, not to mention a very large box starting at 5ft^3 ttl. If the xmax was a bit larger, I would say these would be better as a Infinite baffle sub.
I will give them credit as those subs remind me of today's current subs in almost every way, which made SS ahead of their time with that design. A boomer's delight!
Sorry my friend, but like me, your stuck with needing the use of another driver(s) to attain better results.
Personally I prefer subs with a Qts between .30 - .44 with a fairly low Fs. The higher rolloffs (40-60hz) at a lower Q's (.6 to .8) seem to fair better with SQ installs. Healthy xmax's of at least 10mm helps here too.
swez on 11/30/2007 17:47:07
Yes sir, that confirms my raw observations very well and now we know why. Like I said, there were very few DVC's in that day and these were one of the few choices out there back then. Efficient... YES, accurate SQL subs, they are not.
Oddly, am using them in my garage shop for now and powering with about 350 Wrms when amp is working hard. However, the low bass is muddy and cutting the EQ sliders at 30 & 60 Hz seems to clean things up a tad. The upper bass region, (50-70 Hz) is too strong as well and a better filter would help. (18-24dB slope) But then again, this is not a total fix either.
About the deep lows on this box, indeed they do go low. But the clarity is lost in that region for near-field bass needs. I can walk out of the garage and maybe 50 feet away and hear plenty of low drone bass, but clarity of the notes is very much lacking. (SQ wise)
OK, that explains what I note intuitively about this sub pairing. They are very good for SPL Bass... period. Time to dig in, look at another 4 ohm 10" or 12" sub that is better suited for SQ performance.
What do you think about the ProBox Rocks 10" or 12" subs? The price is good and in a moderate size ported box, it was very solid in a F-150 Super Crew Cab install. It had good lows, nice punch and could get pretty decent SPL at 400 Wrms.
Like many of the projects you have tried, my budget is not a phat one. I don't need a 130+ dB SPL sub to be content either. A solid SQ sub in a reasonably compact box is very desirable. If you say the Dayton Quattro is a best buy choice, I won't shoot ya... but willing to wait for a price drop too. hehe
Thanks for the input.... am not surrprised at the answer either. I sensed the right answer was another sub anyway. You just confirmed why.
Thanks bro, Peace!
Dave
Ash on 11/30/2007 19:21:57
Funny you should mention the Probox subs... I emailed them a while back when they first appeared, but never got the specs for them. They seem hefty enough, but with SQ/SQL one has to be quite particular about their choosings.
Is this for the garage or car as I'm kinda confused on this one? Thought you had them for the car, but then you might just be playing with them.
Anyways, you know me by now, I'll keep a look out for you on some decent drivers at a decent price. How much room are you willing to give up? That will kind of put in a area in what to look for.
Grdevs24zero on 11/30/2007 22:49:28
Just got my ProBox 12" not 10 minutes ago, I didn't know UPS delivered at 9:30 at night.
It will be a good week or so before I get my amp though, so until then I'll just build a temporary box. The woofer came with no paperwork so I can't help you out with any specs. However, any thing I can help with I'll do my best.
Ash on 12/1/2007 02:01:04
If you check out the Probox website you will get a idea of how they are using them. Seems like they reccommend using a good amount of bass boost with their sub/boxes.
Looking at some of the pics, also seems like some of the boxes are ported. I don't doubtt their performance though they don't specify what they qualify for (SQ, SPL, or SQL), but the excessive use of bass boost I would think would be harsh on a amp. They got to be compensating for something.....
swez on 12/1/2007 03:56:35
Thanks Ash... ProBox uses mostly ported and specs are very limited on their website. My only real reference point on them is an install with Blue Oval last fall in a F-150 Super Crew truck.
This was an under the back seat model, 10" ported sub in maybe 1.25 cf enclosure that looked like this one. This picture shows a grill cover, but Blue's did not have that feature at the time.
http://www.proboxrocks.com/products/enclosures/loaded/ford/04FSC110L/index.shtml
He was using a JL 500/1 amp and this sub sounded very tight and good thump right out of the carton. He flagged me a few weeks later and said the bass improved even more after break in time and it was a very solid SQL install for everything. We used an AEQ6 EQ and a Nak CD-300 HU. (Only a few dB boost at 45 Hz. was needed)
OK, some clarification on what I'm doing now...
1. The dual SS SPL-10's were in one of my cars until I sold that car and pulled out my amp and subs
2. At the moment, am using this amp and subs in the shop/garage for low end bump
3. Am considering a future install on a 2000 Lincoln TC in the future
As for this install, a single 10 or 12 is all I desire. 1 cube sealed is about all the space I care to allocate for the sub as I need the trunk space. This car has a full size spare, mounted under the rear deck and that leaves a deep well for stowage.
The right rear quarter panel has a nice cavity for a compact sub though and that may be an option to consider. The other option would be a false floor sub install in the deep well center of the trunk flooring. Here, a shallow mounting sub of say 6 inches deep is probably doable.
I don't desire a strong bass thumper type install here. (300 RMS at most, one 4 ohm sub is the plan for now. That's plenty of power to a reasonably high sensitivity sub.
Budget wise, am looking for a low cost SQ sub and will fab the enclosure to fit the space I deem best for function and space. Heck, the Infinity Ref 1050W is probably a good all-a-round option here. (0.75 cf sealed, 250 Wrms and 91dB @ 2.83 volts)
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=520&i=1081050W&tp=111&tab=features_and_specs
Some shopping will get the price down to about $50.00 + S/H. It's a competent sub for the low price. Power handling is good, and with a modest amp, plenty of low end fill is available on demand. The only thing that turns me off, is the Polypropylene cone material.
I prefer pulp paper or woven fiber cones as they tend to be more natural sounding bass. The Alpine SWS-1023D fits that category well. They recommend a 1.0 cf sealed as optimal. This sub is moderately low eff, but that just tells me the motor structure and spider/cone design is well controlled for good transients and moderate X-max excursion for better cone control.
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=520&i=500SWS1023&tp=111&tab=features_and_specs
What-cha think bro?
Swez
Grdevs24zero on 12/1/2007 22:24:14
I'm gonna say go for the Infinity. I built a sealed box for my friends, which came out to about .72 CF with the woofers displacement. One of the tightest subs I've heard, accurate, and it's been played hard for over a year now (and was used when I built the box for it) and is still goin strong. It has outlasted 2 cars it was in.
His advice was that knowing how the young guys like their gear loud and powerful (bass anyway); I should do one myself to show that I'm capable of that aspect as well. Then maybe it will get them to bite more. That made sense since someone is always showing me their latest setup.
So now I have acquired a infamous BP1200.1 to install. After some recent testing & approval of two 250 rms 10" subs that I got for very cheap, I decided to run 3-4 of these on that amp.
Finding a suitable amp was hard as I still plan on running the AC DSQ unit recently installed. As you know that unit already has a built in x-over and finding a high power class D amp with a defeatable x-over is almost impossible. The only solution was one that had a shallow slope (12db) with a high enough point (320 hz on the JBL) so that it would have less interference.
The subs aren't anything special with a 8mm xmax, yet they are somewhat efficient (88 db @ 8 ohms each) with a nice FS (25hz) and take a small box of about .5 ft^3 for a Qtc of .8.
I don't expect to blow any real competition vehicle out of the water, but I do expect to have some pretty good SPL with a fair amount of SQ. This also should knock out a good amount of some of the crap I've seen installed.
Do you think I should run all 4 or should 3 be enough to impress? THINK
Running 3 in parallel should net a 2.7 ohm load. Not sure how much will that draw from the amp. 4 will be definitely 2 ohms which nets 1000 rms handling and I'm very sure the JBL will push them to the max. Gains will have to be carefully adjusted to keep from blowing them. I doubt I will need to pull the full potential out of that amp running efficient subs, yet the headroom will be nice to have.
I expect between this weekend and next week, it should be up and running. Until then. gotta figure how the box will be.
Keepya posted......
Ash
Replies (37)
ttocs on 11/13/2007 09:01:36
I would try to design the box so that if I wanted to I could add the 4th sub to the end of it and see what I like the best.........
Ash on 11/13/2007 09:11:44
You mean like an add on separate box? Not a bad idea if that's what your'e talking about. Could later be attached permantly from the inside with some glue sandwhiched in between if wanted.
I'll consider that.....
Victor on 11/14/2007 02:07:15
Along with SQ and SPL, I'd urge you to consider the aesthetics of this system if you're thinking of using this as a demo setup...
some fiberglassing as well as some lighting would be some added attraction and also showcase your ability in fabrication too...
Victor...
Ash on 11/14/2007 03:30:27
Good point there Vic. Anyone can do a shoddy install, but doing a proper one that looks nice and blends with the interior is a horse of a different color.
I was kinda leaving the fiberglass work for the Dayton 10" I have in there now. With it's micro enclosure requirements (.35 ft^3), it would fit nicely in the rear passenger side pocket for a stealthy install.
The SPL setup will only be temporary as I'm a little past that stage. Just got to show them youngsters that an "older Kat can still scratch".
Once I've had my fun and proven myself, then it will be back to strictly SQ in my ride. The amp will stay though......
swez on 11/14/2007 18:55:59
Yeah, make a statement about creativity, good design engineering and the ability for flex as design/space parameters fit.
One thing to remember about the JBL 1200.1, it is 1 or 2 ohm stable and over-rated a bit too. (12.9 volts as I recall, not 14.4 volts) So, designing and fabrication for 2, 3 or 4 woofers if possible. Looks are a nice touch for your demo, but how much will your customers value asthethetic VS bomming, tight bass?
Think it over since the guys you will be impressing are probably on tight budgets? It all good, but you may wind up doing a lot of sound dampening here too.
Swez
Ash on 11/14/2007 19:04:49
The subs that I will be using will suprise them enough. Four 10's in a 2 ft^3 box? They won't have a clue. If they even found out that I got them on closeout, then they might just shoot me. I'm even ashamed to tell on here how little I payed.
I don't want to get overworked doing cosmetics on this one. If it were to permanent then I could see. For now, there's a few I need to knock down a peg or two. Then maybe they will understand that I don't just build SQ rigs.
swez on 11/14/2007 19:20:52
I'm with ya bro... am an SQ fan period. But out market is not just SQ. You can show them SQL and see how that flies, but some are SPL nuts and we would have a hard time meeting just that need on a modest budget.
For now, if adding many clients is your goal, take off the audiophile hat and let them eat cake. But if you wish to specialize, then plan on a limited target market... loud yes, but it may sound great to them, but to us, we know it sounds like "Hammered Schnitz".
It's does not have to be a "perfect world" to make a good buck for most SPL guys.
Swez
PS What PE drivers/woofers are you working with?
Ash on 11/14/2007 19:37:54
Not PE, Credence.
Remember "lilschtive"? The problems he was having finding replacement 10's for his truck? I can't remember what he got after that, but that was his loss.
I directed him to these particular subs that were like only 30 bucks or so, yet he was so stuck on some used JL's. Well I got them and tested them and there you go....
http://credencespeakers.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CSI&Product_Code=BN108&Category_Code=BO
Another old company that these new guys don't even have a clue about.
SQLThump on 11/18/2007 19:36:22
That seems like a killer system plan there Ash. 4 10's and only 2 cubes of space could definitely make a statement, as well as the use of the 8 ohm in the mobile application. Definitely a good wat to go about things when making a point.
As a younger guy, slowly growing older, heres my take on the subject.....
1200 watts will definitely turn just about anybody's head my age. Especially when somebody who knows what they are doing hooks it up.
In terms of numbers, 4 sometimes seems like a magical number for round things. Like "I ate 4 donuts" or t"hats a group of 4 nice round booties" or "I got 4 10's in the ride" I dunno, but to me, and to kids my age, it seems to click.
This is kind of like the opposite of what my systyem build goal is. I find myself a maturing young dude, and the ears of myself and my projected customers leans more to an SQ steup. This will kind of me my attempt to show the oldsters that junior can do SQ.
As for making it flashy and visually pleasing, if this isn't a permanent rig, I wouldnt go there. Fun neon lights are being banned in some areas of the country, but I hear Florida is pretty lenient on the mobile electronice fan. Younger guys may be a little more impressed, but when it boils down to it, it's your ride, do what you want, don't let any of us young punks with their SPL rigs infleunce too heavily what you do to your vehicular environment.
But if you really wanted to show funtionality, mad bass, and some sick custom work, you could build door pods to house a 10" in each door. I am not too sure if that is possible to do .5cf3 enclosures in each door, but that would blow junior and his posse all the way back to the "Marky-Mark and the funky bunch"era.
Anyway I gotta split for now, Keep us posted!
swez on 11/18/2007 20:35:27
Hum, was looking at that site you mentioned Ash and see they have Pro Box Rocks subs too. (Cheap too... $40.00 each)
Blue Oval bought a single 10" in a ported design and powered it with a JL 500/1 and it does deliver the mail very well. Am shocked to see such a low price on a very good high performance woofer. (It kicks well with enough power)
Credence is also a solid lil pup and been around a long time. They even make MI/PA speakers too.
Good link to hang on to,
Swez
Ash on 11/19/2007 04:31:38
Yeah, I've been dealing with Credence for some time. Very solid products. People just don't realize how much the major brands are actually produced by another company.
That company is actually the producer for Kicker's better products from back in the day and some of the top gear now. Breeze through and you might see some products you recognize.
Just like the Dayton DVC 12" and the Adire Shiva were almost twins. Really made by Eminence, then tailored to the custormer's spec.
Now some newbs might say, "So what? Who cares?".... But if we can cut out the middle man sometimes, then we can see our dollars actually working.
swez on 11/19/2007 05:14:55
So true.... Eminence is a huge speaker maker for many other branded names. They have been in the biz for over 30 years and I used them back in the 70's for Bass Guitar and PA apps too.
They were a good product then and with new materials and technology tweaks, am sure they still do a great job for low budget systems and upper end gear as well.
Yes, general application speakers need not be overly expensive to get the job done. The chain of handlers between the maker and the end user is what rings up the price tag. (Or the brand name will)
The prices noted on that site are probably at cost or blow outs or slightly blemished, at just below cost to reduce inventory before tax time. That's when to buy and get the most bang for the buck.... NOT Christmas time shopping, but after the new year, the best deals are found.
Swez
Grdevs24zero on 11/22/2007 00:07:28
It's time like these that I worship you fellas that have been in the game longer than I have been alive. I'm curious to find out if subs like these could compare with the JL 10w6 I've been looking at for my SQ setup?
swez on 11/22/2007 01:35:21
Oh yeah... JL makes some great gear to be sure, But if one really understands the game well, we can get the same results and not have to pay the big name premium prices either.
The 10W6 is a solid woofer to be sure. If you have them now, just use the recommended enclosures and enough power to get them up to the levels of bass deired.
Are there more cost effective options? You bet and Ash has given a lot of time to test and compare lesser known brands that do deliver the mail. In most cases, we dont need to spend $200.00 or more on a solid subwoofer to get the desired results.
In a nutshell, our end results are about 80% install techinques and 20% gear choices. (Illuminating statement huh?) It takes time to figure all this out, but a guy on a limited budget can create a well above average sound system if they have the time and knowledge to do so.
Swez
Grdevs24zero on 11/22/2007 01:47:35
I'm all for the 80/20 split thing. The fun doesn't come in spending the money, the fun comes from designing, building, and perfecting.
I know how a speaker works, how different box designs help and how amps match, but I can't for the life of me discern the hazy line between super market trash and audiophile goodness.
But, it's not much money (I talk like I have a plantation that grows it) and I feel like learning today. So I figure I'll look into these subs bit more and give one of them a try. At the very least I'll learn something, and that's what I'm all about.
And just so I don't get this thread too OT, I'll comment on the imaging thing:
I've heard some very, VERY nice setups with 8" woofers in the doors, and tweeters mounted at the middle-top of the A-pillar aimed down to the knees of the person on the opposite side of the car. While I do not intend to put subs in the doors, I do intend to mount my tweeters up high, as in the stock locations in the doors much of the sound is ruined by both yours and your passengers legs. You can tell a large difference here simply by moving your legs to one side or the other while listening.
swez on 11/22/2007 02:06:42
Agreed and 100% with your thoughts/observations too.
Unfortunately, stock location are more for the ease of the auto maker. (But not optimal for the end-user) Audio quality is usually an after-thought at best, unless they partner with Aftermarket suppliers like RF, Infinity, Alpine, Boston and Bose. Even then, there are trade-offs to consider. A premium Audio System from the car dealer has a huge mark-up. We can pay through the nose and still have a just barely adequate system for that price.
Swez
Ash on 11/22/2007 14:50:33
"Zero", the "hazy line" is mostly on the user. True there is a lot of gear on the market that doesn't live up to what is claimed, however, having the knowledge to be able to manipulate cost effective products into something worth using is what's mostly lacked.
There's a lot of trial & error in dealing with that aspect. Creativity with the guts & stamina to see it through counts as well. That is just the problem... Many are not creative enough to stay away from trends that may hinder possibly good designs. Market trends aren't always best to follow.... Remember the influx of flashy see-thru bandpass boxes. True custom bandpasses aren't bad designs and can have more pros than cons in certain situations making them very useful. Yet, the label bandpass got a bad rep from the glitzy misaligned products put on the market to exploit those wanting one because of what they heard they can do. Most do not understand when or how to use a properly built one. Ported sometimes follows as well.
When I begin designing a system I look at a lot of options including stuff out of the "norm". I run the "numbers to at least see how it may perform, and then determine is it worth it. Still I keep the ideas available for other times when it will be useful. You still have to have a level head and use some common sense to know when you're going overboard.
Go ahead and try those subs. They're good, but do understand how and when to use them. Being 8 ohm negates running a pair off most monoblocks that are optimized at 2 ohm. Of course you don't want to run out and buy a powerful enough class d amp that will push them in 4 ohms. Kind of a waste to spend the money for the extra 2 ohm power your not going to use.
They're useful when using a bridged 2 channel amp, a high powered 4 channel amp running highs & lows, or running a amp in tri-mode with a single 8 ohm sub.
See how I came up with a few scenarios in which they can help?
Grdevs24zero on 11/22/2007 16:13:44
I was just reading through this thread again and I noticed I pulled the imaging statement from an entirely different thread it appears. Sorry if there was any confusion, been sick the past week and it's gettin to me :(
Thanks for the input there Ash, that cleared a few things up.
Ash on 11/23/2007 07:10:27
The JBL finally got here a few days ago (thursday I believe) and man.... Didn't know it was a monster. I mean I had the 300.1 for some time now, but this thing's mass is up there.
Kinda intimidating and at first glance I wondered "what have I gotten myself into"?!!! LOL... I played it safe and already had ordered a 200 amp HO alternator. Been needing a better anyway as mine was only 130. Still I hope that is enough.
Maybe this is a good time for Mr. B to give a quick brushup on duty cycles. Remember he posted a very informative thread a while back on it.
Waddaya say Mr. B?
Ash on 11/24/2007 07:33:43
Okay, during some holiday boredom, having some free time by avoiding the mad shopping spree that took place yesterday, I went ahead and built the enclosure.
After some deep thought, I decided to go with only 3 of the subs although I do have the 4th on hand. I figured that this should be more than enough to do some damage, but at the same time have real world applicable use. Even though the box would have been relatively small I did not have enough room to put all 4 in without a wacky build. I wanted to keep it simple and just rely on extra cone area.
After much deliberation, I chose a final net enclosure size of 1.757 ft^3 with a tad bit more than the recommended for some good extension. This included bracing (two 2 x 2 x 8.5") and sub displacement. Total airspace is 2.062 ft^3. Unstuffed the box renders a Qtc of .938. Stuffed heavily Bassbox predicts a Qtc down to .757. Dimensions are 36" width x 10" depth x 13.65" height.
This should actually fall into the SQL range, but knowing my vehicle's acoustic nature it will lend some good SPL as well. Predicted rolloff is around 46hz in a unstuffed box though there is a slight hump in the 60-100hz range.
I haven't put the subs in yet as it got dark when the glue was drying. I used Gorilla glue in the joints and then wood glue for sealing the inside seams. All screws were countersunk and outside seams sanded for good cosmetics. I might have enough scrap carpet to apply, but there is something attractive about naked wood with smooth finishes. Yes it is good to match the interior with carpet, but when you like to build you want people to see the quality you put into your works at least before you mask it.
swez on 11/24/2007 14:23:08
Dang, made a good post and it went away...
Recap: If you'd like to make a "Signature Series" box at this stage of the game, consider using real wood laminates or Formica. This is pretty easy to do with a good router, the proper bits and some Super 77 adhesive. The finish can be bold and flashy or subtle and classic. Pick a theme and run with it. The cost is a bit higher per sq ft, but the options are endless.
Note: If using either, plan on rubber feet at the bottom of the enclosure to keep it from sliding around in the cargo area as you drive. These can be had at PE in several sizes and materials.
Swez
Ash on 11/25/2007 09:49:40
You know dealing with PE a lot, I have often thought about that. Never really thought it would fly for people are just used to carpeted boxes. I honestly figured that they would think it was some home audio cabinet with subs stuck off in it. LOL!!
Truth is they have some very attractive laminates that will make it stand out. There are even some good spray paints that will make it look appealing.
By the way, finished the box and installed the subs last night. I took a impedance sweep and got a peak at 51hz. Not too far off from Bassbox's prediction considering I applied about 50% fill.
After wiring and some quick tuning, I say it is definitely a SQL setp. I only tried a few bass tracks which is not normal music content so retuning is probably in order. But it was impressively clean with more than enough spl to turn some heads. The low end was pretty deep but not muddy. I might can remove some of the fill to get a tad more impact up high, but I'll wait for another audition with some other genres because normally I would have to readjust the EQ for bass tracks.
Another funny but good thing is the light dimming wasn't as bad as with the other amp even though this amp is way more powerful. I believe running it at 2.66 ohms will work out good for both amp, subs, and electricals. Still want to install the new alternator when it comes this week.
Any newbs out there looking for a cheap "back massager" I suggest you try this same setup with a good amp. All you need is a amp capable of 500 rms watts at 4 ohm on a 2 ohm stable mono amp.
Grdevs24zero on 11/27/2007 18:12:22
Not to steal any more of your thunder Ash, but I've got a question regarding the Pro Box Rocks 12" that Swez commented on earlier.
Since it is a 4 ohm woofer, which I am just assuming seeing as how the model numbers seem to match the impedence, would it (just one) be a good match for a Rockford T400-2? I don't want to overpower the rest of the system by having more subs than I need. The specs are here:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_8893_Rockford+Fosgate+Power+T400-2.html
I've found a smokin deal on the amp (slightly used) locally, and if you guys think these will match up then I've got myself a sweet bass note for under $150 total. Happy is I.
swez on 11/28/2007 04:21:17
Yeah, this would be a nice setup as noted. That amp may be a bit hard on the current draw during heavy use, but from previous experience with a Pro Box sub, it's solid and gets even better after the sub breaks in a few days.
For the price, this would be an above average pairing as RF amps tend to be stronger than advertised. (Their birth sheets show the real power numbers to be notably better than the general specs shown)
Swez
PS Ash, if these subs sound this good now, I can't help but wonder if they will only go deeper after a good break-in period. Comments?
Ash on 11/28/2007 16:34:40
While I'm waiting for the break-in, can't help but think about the problems I've been having with this truck. In order to get a good low bass output, I've had to either use low Q's in the sealed department which can cut out impact. Or resort to large low tuned ported enclosures (30hz) that may affect quality on more musical tracks (jazz, old school R&B).
The best compact sub I had was the Dayton RS HO 10" in a low Q of .6. Now that I got it out of the truck I'll run a impedance sweep to confirm what's it set at. When I go back to my regular SQ setup, I think I will run two of them with the JBL amp.
Best SQL sub was the Dayton DVC 12" in a mid Q with F3's in the mid 40's. Running two of them would be quite powerful in a sealed 2.2 ft^3 box.
After fiddling with the eq I have found the 60hz range and related harmonics to be the most offensive. Porting down to 30's I believe will be a big help with the new subs as I doubt they can take similar power in a large box. Still in the experimental stage on these as I find the best combo for this truck. I think other vehicles would fair better with the current box.
This blazer is just horrible with speakers!
swez on 11/28/2007 19:28:12
Know what ya mean about the Blazer being a tough SUV to work with and agree 100%.
An old g/f has a 93 Blazer with 3.5" speakers in the dash and I believe 5.25" on the rear doors. I built a low Q sub box for her using a pair of PE 8's. (0.6 Q is my guess???)
The bass was much better than stock, but lacked the deep lows as you mention. This was a sealed sub enclosure and had good punch, but lacked the real deep lows you or I would want on some music formats.
Anyway, keep plugging away as there may be a few minor tweaks that would meet "picky guys" tastes like us.
Swez
PS I have a pair of Sound Stream SPL 10's on hand and loaded in a sealed box of 1.5 cf/sub. (Sealed) If I gave you the T/S parameters, would you mind running them on your bass modeling program and see what the best sealed box dimensions would be?
Right now, the Q is supposed to be ~ 0.7. But after more critical listening and time, I've got to think a smaller sealed box would still deliver good lows and snappy upper bass. (Right now, the deep lows are muddy and poorly defined) Have them crossed over at ~75 Hz, and that's not bad, but the deep lows are sloppy and basically YUCK.
Am sure it's the subs, but these were bought 6 years ago when DVC's were just hitting the market. (Am sure there is a better way to go with ~ 325 wRMS power, (Bridged) in this older JBL Decade Series 2 channel sub amp. (DA-1002)
Ash on 11/29/2007 17:20:29
No problem... Shouldn't take but a few minutes or so to give you some results. I'll post the changes for you so you can decide what you might want to try.
The SPL series were supposedly good subs depending on application. The problem with SQ is it's so demanding of a woofer to be able to play a wider range that something drastic will have to be sacrificed. There aren't many car audio subs that can render that and be cost effective too. I've found raw home audio drivers to best suited for the job, however they tend to lack the power handling and/or require large enclosures.
I guess we can't have it all, huh?
swez on 11/29/2007 17:51:54
So true and thanks for the helps. Do you need the T/S parameters for these SPL-10's? If so, I'll make a new post, give you the T/S numbers and ask that you run them through your Bass Pro program.
I realize there are some compromises to consider. These are pretty efficient subs, but older too and have some definite limitations. The goal is to tighten up the deep low bass, give solid punch, but not scrap them to the "dung heap". If this is not possible with this series, it's back to the drawing board!
Swez
PS Am willing to chop the present box, consider a different 10-12" sub or start from square 1.
Ash on 11/29/2007 18:11:37
Yeah, you better post them for they did make several versions though I'm not sure of what the differences were.
If you have a eq you may can go a bit smaller then cut back around 60 & 120hz to smooth things out a little. I've done that on several setups with the better results than other frequency adjustments. Say -2db on the 60hz to knock down the boominess. Then about -1 on 120hz to lower second order harmonics to further clean it up.
Still depends on your main choice of music. Playing something like Steely Dan I can play it flat. With old school east coast hip hop (which is mostly jazz based), the eq-ing can be applied. 40 & 80hz had the most effect, but tended to be undesirable as it took away too much low end and impact. May work for you though.
swez on 11/30/2007 01:54:17
Right, have plenty of EQ power available now. (30, 60 120, 240... 10 bands in all) As you say, it depends on the music genre and how the music was mixed. Anyway, here are the T/S paras:
Freq Resp: 32-500
Sens: 92 dB @ 2.83v/1m
Nominal Z: 2 Ohms (4+4 DVC)
Fs: 33 Fz
Qts: .528
Qes: .564
Qms: 8.31
EBP: 58.5
Vas: 1.5 ft^3
Bl: 7.06
Xmax: 6mm nom (one way linear) 19mm Peak, coil length = 23 mm
Power handling: 250 Wrms
After looking at this again, this sub will do ported or sealed well, has good linear response, high sensitivity 60-100 Hz and limited excursion to keep it efficient. If taking a stab at sealed optimal, it would probably be more like 0.65 - 0.8 cf/sub.
Keep in mind, when I bought them, (circa-1999) DVC's were a new convention and few vendors had yet to offer this coil configuration in that time frame. Using a 2 channel amp was practically the only option too. Class D amps were just coming into the game then too.
Frankly, I was a newbie to car audio woofer technology at this time as well. Yes, did my homework, but had limited knowledge and a very limited selection of options back then. What is now commonplace in today's considerable list of options, were not present in that time frame.
Swez
PS SS gave 2 recommended sealed configurations, 0.5 or 1.5 cf sealed for this sub. (SPL-10) I chose the larger for more deep bass and reasonable power handling of 175 RMS/sub in the larger box design. After years of flabby bass with this pairing, am ready to optimize these subs and scale back on enclosure size as well.
What say you? (And thanks for your help in advance) ;-)
Ash on 11/30/2007 15:55:36
Are you ready for this?
Those subs are clearly intended as labeled...SPL. Bassbox already has this one in it's database and the spec checker is right on with yours wired in parallel. I've ran both recommended boxes with plots in the auto environment with results in the high Q's.
A box of .5 each nets a Qtc of 1.24, ouch! But what's interesting is the out of car F3 is still around 44hz! A 1.5 ft^3 each box nets a Qtc of .99 with a F3 of 36hz?!!!!!
Both exhibited at least 2-3db (minimum) humps spread across the 50-70hz range in the normal frequency plot. Added to the car acoustical plot with a usual 12db rise starting around 50hz, you get a louder bottom end supposedely all the way out to about 18-20hz. Not very flat at all. Explains the bottom end muddiness, but at high Q's makes it intolerable for SQ.
You don't want to even discuss going in between or larger in a sealed as there is hardly any improvement over what you have them in now. Any ported box will wind up with a very large peak at the low end, not to mention a very large box starting at 5ft^3 ttl. If the xmax was a bit larger, I would say these would be better as a Infinite baffle sub.
I will give them credit as those subs remind me of today's current subs in almost every way, which made SS ahead of their time with that design. A boomer's delight!
Sorry my friend, but like me, your stuck with needing the use of another driver(s) to attain better results.
Personally I prefer subs with a Qts between .30 - .44 with a fairly low Fs. The higher rolloffs (40-60hz) at a lower Q's (.6 to .8) seem to fair better with SQ installs. Healthy xmax's of at least 10mm helps here too.
swez on 11/30/2007 17:47:07
Yes sir, that confirms my raw observations very well and now we know why. Like I said, there were very few DVC's in that day and these were one of the few choices out there back then. Efficient... YES, accurate SQL subs, they are not.
Oddly, am using them in my garage shop for now and powering with about 350 Wrms when amp is working hard. However, the low bass is muddy and cutting the EQ sliders at 30 & 60 Hz seems to clean things up a tad. The upper bass region, (50-70 Hz) is too strong as well and a better filter would help. (18-24dB slope) But then again, this is not a total fix either.
About the deep lows on this box, indeed they do go low. But the clarity is lost in that region for near-field bass needs. I can walk out of the garage and maybe 50 feet away and hear plenty of low drone bass, but clarity of the notes is very much lacking. (SQ wise)
OK, that explains what I note intuitively about this sub pairing. They are very good for SPL Bass... period. Time to dig in, look at another 4 ohm 10" or 12" sub that is better suited for SQ performance.
What do you think about the ProBox Rocks 10" or 12" subs? The price is good and in a moderate size ported box, it was very solid in a F-150 Super Crew Cab install. It had good lows, nice punch and could get pretty decent SPL at 400 Wrms.
Like many of the projects you have tried, my budget is not a phat one. I don't need a 130+ dB SPL sub to be content either. A solid SQ sub in a reasonably compact box is very desirable. If you say the Dayton Quattro is a best buy choice, I won't shoot ya... but willing to wait for a price drop too. hehe
Thanks for the input.... am not surrprised at the answer either. I sensed the right answer was another sub anyway. You just confirmed why.
Thanks bro, Peace!
Dave
Ash on 11/30/2007 19:21:57
Funny you should mention the Probox subs... I emailed them a while back when they first appeared, but never got the specs for them. They seem hefty enough, but with SQ/SQL one has to be quite particular about their choosings.
Is this for the garage or car as I'm kinda confused on this one? Thought you had them for the car, but then you might just be playing with them.
Anyways, you know me by now, I'll keep a look out for you on some decent drivers at a decent price. How much room are you willing to give up? That will kind of put in a area in what to look for.
Grdevs24zero on 11/30/2007 22:49:28
Just got my ProBox 12" not 10 minutes ago, I didn't know UPS delivered at 9:30 at night.
It will be a good week or so before I get my amp though, so until then I'll just build a temporary box. The woofer came with no paperwork so I can't help you out with any specs. However, any thing I can help with I'll do my best.
Ash on 12/1/2007 02:01:04
If you check out the Probox website you will get a idea of how they are using them. Seems like they reccommend using a good amount of bass boost with their sub/boxes.
Looking at some of the pics, also seems like some of the boxes are ported. I don't doubtt their performance though they don't specify what they qualify for (SQ, SPL, or SQL), but the excessive use of bass boost I would think would be harsh on a amp. They got to be compensating for something.....
swez on 12/1/2007 03:56:35
Thanks Ash... ProBox uses mostly ported and specs are very limited on their website. My only real reference point on them is an install with Blue Oval last fall in a F-150 Super Crew truck.
This was an under the back seat model, 10" ported sub in maybe 1.25 cf enclosure that looked like this one. This picture shows a grill cover, but Blue's did not have that feature at the time.
http://www.proboxrocks.com/products/enclosures/loaded/ford/04FSC110L/index.shtml
He was using a JL 500/1 amp and this sub sounded very tight and good thump right out of the carton. He flagged me a few weeks later and said the bass improved even more after break in time and it was a very solid SQL install for everything. We used an AEQ6 EQ and a Nak CD-300 HU. (Only a few dB boost at 45 Hz. was needed)
OK, some clarification on what I'm doing now...
1. The dual SS SPL-10's were in one of my cars until I sold that car and pulled out my amp and subs
2. At the moment, am using this amp and subs in the shop/garage for low end bump
3. Am considering a future install on a 2000 Lincoln TC in the future
As for this install, a single 10 or 12 is all I desire. 1 cube sealed is about all the space I care to allocate for the sub as I need the trunk space. This car has a full size spare, mounted under the rear deck and that leaves a deep well for stowage.
The right rear quarter panel has a nice cavity for a compact sub though and that may be an option to consider. The other option would be a false floor sub install in the deep well center of the trunk flooring. Here, a shallow mounting sub of say 6 inches deep is probably doable.
I don't desire a strong bass thumper type install here. (300 RMS at most, one 4 ohm sub is the plan for now. That's plenty of power to a reasonably high sensitivity sub.
Budget wise, am looking for a low cost SQ sub and will fab the enclosure to fit the space I deem best for function and space. Heck, the Infinity Ref 1050W is probably a good all-a-round option here. (0.75 cf sealed, 250 Wrms and 91dB @ 2.83 volts)
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=520&i=1081050W&tp=111&tab=features_and_specs
Some shopping will get the price down to about $50.00 + S/H. It's a competent sub for the low price. Power handling is good, and with a modest amp, plenty of low end fill is available on demand. The only thing that turns me off, is the Polypropylene cone material.
I prefer pulp paper or woven fiber cones as they tend to be more natural sounding bass. The Alpine SWS-1023D fits that category well. They recommend a 1.0 cf sealed as optimal. This sub is moderately low eff, but that just tells me the motor structure and spider/cone design is well controlled for good transients and moderate X-max excursion for better cone control.
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=520&i=500SWS1023&tp=111&tab=features_and_specs
What-cha think bro?
Swez
Grdevs24zero on 12/1/2007 22:24:14
I'm gonna say go for the Infinity. I built a sealed box for my friends, which came out to about .72 CF with the woofers displacement. One of the tightest subs I've heard, accurate, and it's been played hard for over a year now (and was used when I built the box for it) and is still goin strong. It has outlasted 2 cars it was in.
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