Will This combo work together and what do you think about it..
this is my first build and I need to know what you guys think
Bass Package
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=208250&i=700TC4510B&tp=118
Head Unit
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=300&i=130DEHP390&tp=5684
Front and back speakers
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=400&i=130TSG1341&tp=105
Please Tell me how you feel before I buy and if I should change some things up..
Replies (91)
cplkittle on 11/5/2007 10:23:54
This is a very well balanced setup.
The mids are perfect for the Head unit amp, and the bass should be strong but not overpowering. I would say this is one of the best matched systems anyone has ever asked about. Very wisely planned.
I would say go for it.
Later on, if you want you might look at a 4 channel amp for the door speakers. Something around 50-75w RMS per channel will brighten up the mids and highs. The good thing is that you have speakers that will work well with or without an amplifier.
Your total is $560.. not bad at all for a complete package. You still need the little things like RCA cables, power wire and an inline fuse and the radio harness. Should be able to get all of this for under $50.
Thinking ahead, are you planning on adding to this system? 4 channel, a bigger sub amp, a second sub amp? If so, it would be wise to go ahead and run 4 gauge instead of 8 gauge for power. The larger wire will allow for upgrades. If you run the 8 ga wire now and upgrade later, you will have to replace the 8 ga with 4 ga anyway, so why not run the 4ga now and not have to worry about spending more later.
iXvXi on 11/5/2007 20:43:30
Thanks..
I never actually built a car setup so i'm doing as much research as I can before I actually do anything..
I have a 1997 Cavalier Z24 and I heard that in bigger setups you need to buy new alternator's and capacitor's and stuff.
will I need to buy any of that stuff in order to use them??
cplkittle on 11/5/2007 20:55:27
You should not need any of that. You can do the big 3 if you want, and maybe buy a yellow top battery, but it is not necessary for the stereo system.
Normally a vehicle's charging system will stand up to 600-800 watts pretty well. Once you break 1000 watts, you tend to see the dimming lights and voltage problems.
Ash on 11/5/2007 20:56:55
That is a very decent budget system. You will be fine with stock electricals.
You might also want to look into some form of bass blockers (passive high pass) for the front and rear speakers. This will help them stay clean and last longer. Going with a passive 6db slope on speakers that go down to 60hz, you will need to cap them off around 200-240hz. Bleed through will let them actually play down around 100-120hz which is a good point for a 5.25".
That should net some good blending when the subs are low passed around 80hz.
Simple, but effective, none the less.
iXvXi on 11/7/2007 09:33:48
I will eventually get another amp for my door speakers and I might look into a bass blocker but will I then need to put in a capacitor or something like that?? because I pefer not to if I dont need one
cplkittle on 11/7/2007 09:59:07
Capacitors are pretty much useless. They do work to some degree, but only if the stereo system does not already exceed the electrical capabilities of the charging system.
Let's compare it to money:
The alternator is like your job. It puts out a set amount of electricity depending on how much it is worked. This is your salary. We'll say 105 amp alternators equals $105/day.
The battery is your bank. You can get bigger banks (optima yellow top battery) that have smaller fees (less internal resistance and less voltage loss).
The amplifiers are your bills. The more bills you have the more money you need to make. And when you exceed your income, budgets are cut in other places (headlights dim, voltage drops).
Now a capacitor is like a credit card that you have to pay the balance in full monthly. If you spend more than you make, you don't need one. You need a higher paying job.
If you really don't need one and make enough money to buy everything you want, it will help out a little by making it easier to pay for everything.
And I guess the only thing I can compare the big 3 upgrade to is online bill paying or automatic drafts, making it easier for money to travel from one place to another.
If you plan to add another amplifier later on, you may want to go ahead and run a power wire that will carry both amps now instead of running a small one now, and replacing it with a larger one later.
iXvXi on 11/7/2007 20:23:24
Thanks that helped a lot.. haha loved the caparison
swez on 11/7/2007 23:55:02
Well said Kit! Good analogy.
Swez
iXvXi on 11/9/2007 21:23:26
what bass package should I use??? this one
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=208250&i=700TCRT12&tp=118
or my original??
Ash on 11/10/2007 20:13:41
Both have an problem as that amp doesn't match well with the first. The amp is only rated to put out 300 rms @ 2 ohms, but the subs handle 250 each? Grossly mismatched for maximum efficiency. It's barely over the halfway mark.
As for the second, the Road Thunder series aren't very good either. The subs from both packages are large box formats. They put them in small boxes to make them robust which requires more power and degrades bottom end output.
Got a definite budget for the sub/amp package? Maybe we can help find you something of better sound quality.
swez on 11/11/2007 03:50:17
This is a 2 channel amp and the subs are a net 4 ohm load. (Probably a pair of 8 ohm SVC subs, wired in parallel)
If the amp is bridged MONO, you can expect a solid 300 Wrms to a 4 ohm load. As Ash said, RT subs are not high end subs. They are just OK at best. This amp is a Class A/B amp too. That means low efficiency and more power consumed to produce rated output.
A Class D amp paired with a net 2 ohm sub system would be more effecient and often more bang for your buck.
Swez
Ash on 11/11/2007 05:35:31
Well I'll be slapped and slammed. Good catch Swez!
What kinda bass package uses a 2 channel amp with 4 ohm subs? Must be trying to get rid of low selling stock.
Depending on what you are exactly wanting, I know a couple of sources that I have using to build very low cost, but matched sub systems. Good for beginners that don't want to dive too deep.
swez on 11/11/2007 12:01:53
Hehe, that's what happens when we get out of the trenches for a little while and come back to visit w/ fresh eyeballs. ;~)
It's not a bad "get up and go" system here at all. But if a guy wants a well optimized system that really pushes out some deep bass, Ash can help ya get there on a reasonable budget.
Swez
Ash on 11/11/2007 16:23:59
This box has the right airspace for the subs I recommend. You should contact them to see what the cutout diameter is to make sure of a good fit and seal. The subs need, I believe, a 11". Depending on where you live the shipping may be up there, but when I used my zip (NW Florida) the total came about the same as one in a retail store. If you can build one yourself you will cut the price down a bit.
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_7604_Sonic+Sub+Box-+2H12-1.5.html
These I have used several times and have recommended them to others in need. They come in either 4 or 2 ohm so you pretty much can use whatever amp you choose as long as it supplies 400 rms. Read the reviews..
http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=92&products_id=183
As for power this Kenwood should suffice nicely. You may be able to find it on ebay for cheaper like the latter....
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_8570_Kenwood+KAC-8103D.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-KENWOOD-KAC-8103D-1000-W-SUB-MONO-POWER-AMPLIFIER_W0QQitemZ180178888664QQihZ008QQcategoryZ64570QQtcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
When all is said and done you only saved a few bucks over the crutchfield package. In my zip code, that was roughly about $44. The main thing is better components in the self made package makes for better performance.
swez on 11/11/2007 22:24:25
Hehe, I looked at that last link and what a bunch of hogwash and hype! This guy should be writing campaign speeches for Hillary. That would ensure her defeat in 2008. LOL
"Kenwood is the top manufacturer of car audio amplifiers . Their amps are best sellers in our retail stores. KENWOOD represents a great value in terms of performance and quality. Dollar for dollar, there are no other amps that compare on a feature and power basis! The construction is heavy duty."
The truth is.... Kenwood is a moderate priced, almost meets spec and a decent value for the money spent. They are reliable when used as designed, but nothing extra special. Are there better products out there? Of coarse, but they cost more too.
Swez
trunkisloud on 11/11/2007 23:38:10
hey thanx for that link to the ed subs...i think i may purchase a couple to replace the comp vr 10's in the truck since my bro wants them..and they are nicely priced....do they have the potential to get loud??...have you installed them in ported enclosures/? im thinking 4 8's behind the seat....what can you say on this subject there ash?
Ash on 11/12/2007 02:56:10
Yeah, he's like Flava Flav with that one , huh. Sad part is I didn't even pay it any attention. People are going to buy want they want to regardless of what crap you stuff them with. If anything, you might turn them away just from lying....
Um, no Trunk. " These are not for you, you'll put your'e eye out or something. They hit so hard, they can cause I.B.S from your guts shakin'. Your windshield will crack. Your ears will bleed and you'll be deef, that's right deef, in just a day. Their so underrated on power, your light bill will sky rocket. And it only costs 15 bucks!!!!
I'd make a horrible salesman, huh?
Seriously, though Trunk... These are not a "cure all" deal. A lot of aspects have to be weighed before using them.
First, at that price, there is no warranty (which most don't care for anyway). Secondly, notice the larger boxes they require. Modeled in WIN ISD, the 8" looks okay in smaller, but if ED recommends the larger I would stick with it. I already tried that one with the 12". Efficiency wise the 8" is not that great either.
I thought about running 6 of those 8's one time. After doing some number crunching, I found that three 12's would have been better.
They are probable ok for someone looking for a little something and has room to spare. Not that they probably don't sound good, but most will find the space requirement a bit much for such a small woofer.
iXvXi on 11/12/2007 09:38:45
wow ummm okay??
I dont really know what went on...
Im guessing everyone dissagrees with the package so can anyone give me a good package..
I already bought the head unit so we cant change that but change what ever you want...
I need speakers, amps, and subs
When everyone agrees on a good package then I'll buy it.
I have around a 600-700 dollar spending limit
Please post the links and then I'll find the cheapest place to buy them..
GO CRAZY!!!
Thank You :-)
Ash on 11/12/2007 15:24:33
What about the items I posted. Comes to about 40-50 bucks less than Crutchfield's deal and is better matched. The money saved could be used for a wiring kit.
That should leave around half of your budget to get some better highs and even a 4 channel amp to drive them. Then you will have a full blown system. Still will be easy on the car's electrics.
Thing I've noticed is that if the Z24 is what it is being installed in, then you have 4x6" up front and 6x9" in the back.
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_9935_Infinity+Reference+6422cfp.html
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_5177_Infinity+Reference+9612i.html
These would make for a much nicer upgrade although those 4x6" would have to be driven with a amp because of the 2 ohm load. You may be able to find the older version in a 4 ohm for a little less.
Tally up what you have now and see if that fits the bill.
swez on 11/12/2007 18:50:26
Dem dogs will hunt. Having 2 ohm speakers up front and 4 ohm units in the back are a nice balance for/withy a modest 4 channel amp.
The 4x6 plates say 72 Hz, but not when powering them over about 40 watts or so. Here, these can be filtered to play above 150 Hz and let the rear 6x9's handle the 80 Hz and up stuff.
As for your sub(s), we usually suggest 80 - 100 Hz low pass filtering. If ports are used, you'll want to use a subsonic filter to protect the subs. (Sealed sub do not require an SSF feature)
Swez
Ash on 11/12/2007 19:25:12
A decent package all together indeed if he goes for it. Yes it's hard to get past not running "high end" gear, but a lot of it is hype when it comes to the average ear.
Setting it up right is the key and accounts for a large portion of the end result. When listening to stock for a while, one would be amazed how little we actually need.
iXvXi on 11/13/2007 09:21:43
looks promising,
Couple more questions-- for the subs ASH said should I get a 2 or 4 Voice Cois with the Kenwood amp
Also with the speakers-- you said I would need another amp to power them, Can anyone give me a link that will work well with them??
Ash on 11/13/2007 11:06:35
For that Kenwood, you should use two 4 ohm subwoofers wired in parallel (positive to positive & negative to negative). That will pull the most wattage from the amp.
Those subs are pretty efficient so it's important to not go too small on the box. 1.5 cubic feet minimum each (3 total). Sounds big I know, but that is the norm for big subs.
If you go with that box, make sure you call them to see if the cutout is 11". Too small and it can be trimmed. On the big side is a no-no, you will have gaps where the screws go (major air leaks).
As for a amp I've been doing some extensive searching for something that is fairly clean with enough watts. Here a good factor to look for would be around .05 THD%. You want good clean power for your highs.
Scratch the infiinty front setup. For some reason Crutchfield says the plates won't fit but a normal 4x6" will. In that case you might want to see what they offer in a bigger size as they will give you the mounting brackets and plugs free. A good 6.5" would be nice and then power will not be a problem.
Have you totalled up what you have left after whatever components you have chosen. That might help with finding a decent amp. I want to help save you money, but at the same time let's not short change you on quality.
Holla back..
Ash on 11/13/2007 12:00:08
This will fit directly and keeps your 2 ohm load.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-07-INFINITY-REFERENCE-6422CF-4X6-2-WAY-CAR-SPEAKERS_W0QQitemZ250183542513QQihZ015QQcategoryZ14939QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
When looking for a amp, something in the range of 40-50 rms watts @ 4 ohms will do since you will extract more power from the fronts when drop down to a 2 ohm. The rear at 4 ohms, 40-50 watts rms will do fine as you don't want to overpower the front speakers. Here you will get a nice rear fill effect. Don't forget we want low distortion rates and high signal to noise ratios if possible for clean upper end output. Also look for additional rca outputs so it can feed another amp you bass amp a signal.
Example:
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_10193_Clarion+APX4240.html
Notice how the Clarion amp rates in the total harmonic distortion and it's signal to noise. That's what we don't want. It could be better than that.
Now look at the difference in the Hifonics amp:
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_6553_Hifonics+Titan+TXi+4406.html
See the difference? Small but those little things count. Don't fear the high power ratings of the Hifonics. They are a little overrated, but not bad enough to not to consider. In fact that would be a good one.
Just remember to take your time looking through stuff. There is no rush to do it all now. Saving for later can net you even better gear. That is up to you. I'm just trying to show you ways to save money and still get decent gear. The money you save will help on hidden things like a amp wiring kit, extra rca's and other small items like that.
We'll checkout Knukonceptz.com for your wiring when we reach that point. Good deals with excellent quality there.
iXvXi on 11/15/2007 09:34:12
Okay I changes some things up a little bit.
1000W amp
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_8570_Kenwood+KAC-8103D.html
Sub Woofer Box
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?i=044H1712DS&tp=127
Subs -- Need 2
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=520&i=130TSW301R&tp=111
Front Speaker
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=51400&i=1086422CF&tp=100
Rear Speaker
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_5177_Infinity+Reference+9612i.html
4 Gauge Wiring Kit
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_7228_e2+E1000+by+Scosche.html
Then I need a amp to power the speakers.. can anyone give me a little help with that??? and Will these all work together??
My head unit is a Pioneer DEH-P3900MP
My car is a Chevy Cavalier Z24-- 4x6 In the Front and 6x9 in the Rear
If you say they will work fine then I'm going to go for it ( Including the amp for the speakers)
This is everything I'm buying so if I need something that's missing in the wiring kit or anything in general please tell me.
Thanks
iXvXi on 11/15/2007 09:52:13
And one other thing does Sonicelectronix give you everything you need to install it like Crutchfield or do you have to buy wiring and connectors and stuff separately..
Because Crutchfield makes is so easy to install everything..
I would buy everything from crutchfield but they dont have the same rear speakers as Sonicelectronix does..
If I have to buy everything separately from Sonicelectronix then I'd rather switch speakers to something similar to them that crutchfield has.
Ash on 11/15/2007 10:43:05
Only Crutchfield offer those items for free. However most don't use them if they are running a outboard amp; they run all new wire to the speakers.
For the rears, you may want to enter your vehicles info at Crutchfield and check to see what is available for a good fit. Apparenlty there are some issues with your back deck that makes "drop in fits" rather elusive. If your not willing to do some extra modifications, then your choice may be limited to what they offer.
iXvXi on 11/15/2007 17:50:09
All I really need to know is if they go together because im going to look on ebay for some cheaper prices
swez on 11/16/2007 05:52:06
E-bay is a good option for low priced gear at any quality range you wish. Most will give you quality products, low prices and perhaps a 1 year warranty they will service if something goes wrong.
Just remember to look at the comments and seller feedback ratings from buyers. If you see a number lower than 97% positive and a large number of sales, read the negative feedbacks before placing an order with that seller.
Swez
Ash on 11/16/2007 08:44:22
The sub and box is a no-go....
The Kenwood amp states a rating of 500 watts rms (@ 100hz). I would estimate that it is a solid 400. Not bad, but probably not enough for two decent 12".
The Pioneers are very efficient, but they have a extremely high Qts (.72) factor. This means they will require a fairly large box to get down low. Unfortunately, you cannot get high efficiency, relatively small enclosures, and deep extension in one package. One of those aspects has to be sacrificed. If you notice the specs on that sub it says up to 2 cubic feet per sub. That's a lot for sealed. High Q's aren't good for ported so that kinda kills things there as well.
An ideal sub for that amp is something like this:
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/P210S4/detail.asp
If your bent on using two 12", for the money the Edesigns EHQS 12" are hard to beat which are a good match for the Kenwood. I can testify to that as I put that same combo together for a friend. Plenty of output.
iXvXi on 11/16/2007 09:55:44
Here's Ash saving the day again..
I'm not really bent on anything, I'm just looking for a good system.
I'm willing to change anything
My parents are buying me everything for my birthday so as you probably already know they don't like to go-to a thousand sites to buy something
Okay I switched out the subs for the ones you recommended--
I think it would be so much easier if someone could give me a complete setup because when ever I put something that someone recommended it always gets changed-
Now that I switched the subs I will need a box that will fit, Sense Crutchfield doesn't have the same model I cant use the accessory recommendation.. Any suggestions?
Ash on 11/16/2007 11:05:00
Just got some free time to kill, and enjoy donating some time to the boards as I've gotten plenty of help before and still do... GRIN
Since your parents are buying your gear, do they have a set price? If you want to go to a one shop deal, Sonicelextronix is probably your best bet with the variety & prices they have.
First you must figure out exactly how you want your system to sound reasonably. Of course "mom and pop" probably won't buy you a "block boomer", but selecting the proper matching gear will net good results with some durability.
Which subs are you opting for, the Rockford P2's? Here you go in a 12" with a box to match. Stuff the box with just a little (50% per side) polyfill from Walmart's fabric section and there you go.
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_2206_Rockford+Fosgate+Punch+P212S4.html#
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_7606_Sonic+Sub+Box-+2H12-2.0.html
With this you can keep the same Kenwood and you saved your parents enough to get you a 4 channel amp for whatever highs you choose. Here's a couple good ones that's clean enough to consider:
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_6553_Hifonics+Titan+TXi+4406.html
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_6518_Hifonics+ZXi+3406.html
The first is a little powerful for the 4x6" in 2 ohm's but you can turn the gains down a bit to protect them. The extra power will lend extra headroom to stay clean, plus will make it easier to integrate upgrades later.
The latter will match the 2 ohm Infinity's better in power, but will be weaker if you ever upgrade and use 4 ohm speakers.
iXvXi on 11/17/2007 03:29:25
I can have more than one site, most likely Sonicelectronix, Crutchfield and Ebay..
ohh and can you say HUGE help..
Im going with that whole thing you just said.
And for the amps,how hard is it to turn the gains down? Because if it sounds better and cost less then im just going to go for it
Ash on 11/17/2007 05:22:37
Well, having more than one makes a big difference. Whatever you can't find at one the other may have.
Yeah, I think you will be happy with those subs. The P2's are a bit better than the P1's. A friend of mine has a 8" P2 in his lil' Mini Coop' and I was impressed. Was pretty decent for a single 8". With that whole setup you will be making a great jump over the stock. One thing to remember is to try not get caught up in the rat race of always trying to improve or adding more unnecessary gear to outdo someone else. It could turn from "something nice" to "one big mess". With any audio gear setup, the simpler the better.
Adjusting the gains on a amp is very simple, although it shouldn't be misused as a volume knob. You dial in where you need it to give good output without distortion or overpowering the speaker. Once it's set, leave it unless you know what you are doing and need to readjust.
swez on 11/17/2007 05:38:06
Gain adjustments are pretty easy if we use an AC voltmeter and signal tones, (50, 60 Hz) as a reference. This is true of sub amps, but not so easy with Component type speakers.
If we know the sub power handling specs and subwoofer coil resistance, we can calculate "RMS POWER" with Ohm's Law:
Voltage = the sq rt of Watts x Resistance
Example: 500 Watts, 2 ohm subwoofer load
Voltage = sq rt of 500 x 2 or sq rt of 1000
Voltage = 31.6 volts into a 2 ohm load = 500 watts power
There's a few variables to consider as we dial in a given system. (HU RCA voltage, Mid/High amp power and how much bass we want in a given setup) The key is knowing that most Aftermarket HU's deliver clean power at 80% of max volume dial settings. We can give you this detail when you are ready to optimize your system.
Swez
iXvXi on 11/17/2007 22:19:53
As for wiring You said go to
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productMaster.cfm?Category=Amp%20Installation%20Kits
What one will I need for both amps?
There seems to be a difference between 4 channel amp wiring and mono and I don't wanna buy the wrong one
Ash on 11/18/2007 06:23:55
With chosen setup including the Pioneer HU you have several options for wiring.
That HU has three pairs of rca outputs and is capable of controlling the crossover points of the amps plus subwoofer phase and volume. Easy for fine adjustments while in the listening position. Downside is less crossover points for dialing in the just the right amount. Plus 3 pairs of rca's will have to be installed and the Kenwoods crossover cannot be turned off so there will be a compromise between the chosen frequencies. May or may not be a problem for you.
Next options would be since both amps has crossovers & preouts, you could feed the 4 channel full range from the HU and then run a short full range rca from the 4 channnel preout to the bass amp. This uses the amp's crossovers soley. Much simpler, but makes tuning harder as you will have to make adjustments in the rear then sit up front to hear the difference. Could take a good while if your by yourself.
Third option is the Hifonics Titan amp has an input selector switch that allows all 4 channels to be fed with a 2 channel signal. With that option, you feed the amp a full range signal from the HU's front rca and the rear or subout rca to feed the sub amp. You lose fading between the interior speakers from the HU (will be amp controlled only), but you can control the sub with the HU. Not a bad option....
Setting up a crossover is can be somewhat time consuming as you make adjustments and then listen for the right points that work best for the speakers. You are also trying to get a good blending between all front, rear, and subs. You may need someone to help with that. They adjust while you listen to some your average tracks.
That being said you will definitely need a 4 channel amp kit, but then the sub rca is not included. Depending on your choice, a extra full length rca or a short (2-3 foot) rca will be needed. The latter option above will just use the 4 channel rca.
To neaten up things a bit in the trunk a couple of distribution blocks would be a help. These are good for splitting up the power wire to the amps without unsightly tie-ins wrapped in electrical tape and such (ghetto rigged). One for ground and one for positive battery.
Here the wire from the battery feeds to the blocks. Then short runs from the blocks to the amps. Ground vice versa...
It will help to get out there, and look in your trunk to see where you will mount the amps. Then take some measurements of how long each wire/cabe will need to be. A simple amp rack made from some carpeted wood attached to the trunk somewhere out of the way would make things neat. Your dad might can help with that. You don't want to mount the amps to the sub box as the vibrations can damage the amps over time.
Figuring all that, at minimum you can use this:
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLM-K4
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLA-5M
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=PB-1448
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=PB-1448G
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLM8PRL
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KOL8BL
For sub wiring you can get away with some 12 gauge if the runs are kept fairly short. Figure in some terminals for the speakers, if they don't come with them. The subs will need a set of four to connect to inside the box and that depends on the size wire you decide to use.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productMaster.cfm?Category=Installation%20Accessories
Up to 16 gauge wiring for the door speakers. I didn't post that because they were out of the less expensive ones. There were others, but your budget can determine what you want. The speaker wire included in the kit can be used for the rear speakers.
The included ring terminals should be enough to hookup the batt cable and ground distribution block to body/frame. Add a couple of spade terminals to hook to the Kenwood. All else will go through the dist' blocks and won't need connects.
All together it should come up around maybe $10 more than the already put together 4 awg 4 channel amp kit, but with all the stuff you need to hook everything up. If you opt for the 4 channel amp kit and then add it will be more.
For a complete list you need to measure so you'll know how much wire + a lil extra for "oops" factor. Get back with that then we can figure exactly what to get.
If I missed anything some of the others I'm sure will chime in.
iXvXi on 11/18/2007 15:53:15
Wow I never Realized how much stuff you need to get..
So far my total is $543.94 .. And that's with out wiring
and I'd say $650.00 would be my budget but If I have to I'll go over
Also where would I measure from for the wiring..
Soon as I get a complete list Ill start to worry about how to wire it.. so what ever method you suggest I should go with, I'll go with
Ash on 11/18/2007 16:12:22
What does the total include? We'll try to keep costs down on uneccessary stuff....
There's two ways to measure:
If you tap into the speaker leads for the fronts behind the radio, measure from there back. Follow the curves in which you will run the wires to get a good approximate.
Running the speaker wires into the doors will be the same except include length going into the doors and back.
The kit has enough except for the 8 gauge that runs to each amp off the main wire. Figure will you will mount the amps and measure the length where you will run those.
Pretty simple... You just got to imagine how it will all be laid out then write down what you will need plus a little extra. Not too much though.
Got it?
iXvXi on 11/18/2007 16:24:53
The total includes both amps, sub box, both subs, front speakers and rear speakers..
and I'll probably measure it all out tom. sense it will get dark in about 20 min..
also for the speaker measurements, do i have to take the whole speaker panel off just to measure it?
Ash on 11/18/2007 16:42:38
That's pretty good for the quality of components your opting for. Don't forget to add shipping, plus check for any shipping discounts for further savings.
You don't have to take anything apart yet. Just look where the speaker sits in the door and measure from there forward to where it will enter the car interior. Give a little for slack. Then down from that point to the floor, the floor and back into the trunk to where the amps will sit. Follow whatever routes it will take to hide them. Doesn't have to be exact, you just want enough to do it neatly and without any stress on the wire. Once you do that you might even find a 50 ft roll may work with plenty to spare.
Just to give you a idea:
I have wired speakers in many small to medium four door vehicles with a 50 foot roll. That of course with the rear speakers running to the amp in the trunk, which saves a lot. The rolls I got from Walmart for about $14 in the auto section.
You just take your time and everything will work out fine. Planning it all out is one of the most important phases and so far you are doing a heck of a job!
Later,
Ash
iXvXi on 11/18/2007 17:13:59
Thanks,
And I never even realize how much shipping was, To bad Crutchfield doesn't have everything because shipping is free...
But the shipping cost was $84.48 so the total is now $606.41
Ash on 11/18/2007 19:46:53
Don't forget that Sonicelectronix has a ebay store too. Sometimes you can find the same item there with a reduced price.
Found the Titan amp there about 15 bucks less w/ shipping. Also seen a suitable sub box there for about 10 bucks less also w/ shipping. Depending on what is offered you can get a small additional shipping discount for multiple items. Doesn't sound like much but already with my zipcode that was a savings of about 28 dollars for the two items.
So it does pay to check....
swez on 11/19/2007 05:37:05
Consider using a ball of string to get wire measurements. Just lay out your string in the path you intend to use for the wiring and add aboy 10% more for a safety factor. That should give you a pretty good feel for wire length calculations.
Swez
PS In your budget, may I suggest you set aside a "gratuity" amount for the guy who is taking a lot of time to help you pull all this together? His expert help is saving you money, time and getting the best possible deals... set aside a stipen for his Christmas stocking too. Ash may not ask for it, but it is well deserved and very appropriate for such high level helps. (It's good form to "tip" service providers that go the extra 5 miles for our benefit) ;-)
iXvXi on 11/19/2007 09:20:17
Your not the only one that has been thinking about that..
I'm Donating whats left of my pay-pal account... It may only be 15$ but its something..At least this will show some of my gratitude for helping me.
If this didn't take up so much money to do I'd donate more because without everyone's help I'd most likely buy the wrong thing..
Ohh and the ball of string was a great idea, I was most likely going to use a tape measure.. (A.K.A Hell in a Case)
iXvXi on 11/19/2007 18:03:31
Lets see If I measured right..
I went from the front speaker to the trunk where the amp will set..And that measured out to approx 14 feet with extra in case I mess up
for some reason I'm a little confused.. Wouldn't I need to run from the HU down to the trunk?..Or maybe I'm just out of it today..
Now back to the capacitor, Will I need one now sense I broke 1000 watts or am I still under?
I'm trying to talk to my dad about this stuff but he has low patience and he thinks I'm getting way over my head haha..
Ash on 11/19/2007 19:06:59
That sounds about right for a small 2 door.
Wiring to the HU is a not a bad option especially when you use the aftermarket harnesses (speakers and HU). That will help simplify wiring a bit. Will you see a major difference between the two? I doubt it at that wattage level. I have done to help keep the vehicle in a returnable to stock state for reselling. You can use that, but make sure you re-measure from that point and include the necessary harnesses in the list.
Stay away from the caps! They don't necessary work if you really need a boost in power. They are just a "looks good" product that can actually detract from the batt and alt. The money on those should really go into alt and batt upgrades if needed. The Kenwood only has a 40 amp fuse and shouldn't really present a problem.
You gotta realize something with watts. Even though a amp is capable of said power, that doesn't mean that it is going to (or needs to) do the maximum continuous constantly. It will go up and down along with the music (mostly on bass peaks and some strong low notes).
Plus since, the highs amp will not be pushed to the max (bridged and/or playing bass), it isn't going to draw a whole lot of current to dim lights and such either. You may only see that on bass hits from the subs sitting at idle. There really isn't a set number of watts (continuous or rms) that says you need more juice to the amp. That all depends on your battery's and alternator's output minus what the car's needed electricals call for plus the systems current draw at a given output.
There is a almost free upgrade (Big 3) that you can do, but there's no reason to worry about that right now. We'll cross that bridge if need be.... For right now I believe your safe.
As for your Dad, the worst thing you can do is pester someone who doesn't understand nor have the patience to understand, because they might mostly think that it is unecessary. Sad part is they are probably right, but that doesn't change what you like.
As long as your mom and pops are cool with helping you fund your project, then the most you should concern them with is being responsible, trying to do it right, and saving them some money at the same time. That should make them proud that you took the initiative for those reasons alone.
A good way to do that would be to go to a local shop or retail store and get a estimate for the same thing or quite similar. Then you could show them the difference in cost in the end when the lower budget project still sounds good or even better.
swez on 11/20/2007 03:47:24
Good points and look at all the new knowledge you will gain in the process. This can help a young guy to learn to think more critically and look at the options before they dive into any major plan in life later.
Funny thing about this site, we are based on Car Audio but when push comes to shove, it's really more about learning to ask for help, using team knowledge bases and then fit our needs/desires into a workable plan and budget. (Life is full of those kinds of choices and we all need help at one time or another)
As with anything in life, we all have blind spots and knowledge gaps. But when we step outside the box and ask a lot of questions, get some seasoned inputs and think things through well, the end result is often far better than one person could stuble through in a year on their own dime.
That's what I really appreciate on this forum... we cover many issues and "fresh eyes" with a few years of experience can save a lot of hit/miss mistakes. It's all right here... just think, ask and experiment within reasonable guidelines and the rewards will be many.
Swez
PS Man was not made to be an island all onto themselves. We all need wisdom and guidance from time to time and there's plenty here to go around. Use it and cut the learning curve in half. (If not more)
iXvXi on 11/20/2007 09:24:35
Its doesn't matter which one because I'm most likely not going to sell it..If anything its going to my Dad
So basically which ever way is easier is the way I'll go and I was over looking the fact that you get less power in idle
Also, I been looking at this layout to get some idea of how to wire it..
http://www.crutchfield.com/learningcenter/car/amplifiers_wiring.html
Will the wiring come with a power block or will I need to buy it separate?? Or do I even need one sense I'm not using a capacitor??
Besides that everything pretty much looks straight forward
ohh and thanks for the advice
Ash on 11/20/2007 15:29:31
That's a pretty good diagram of what you will be doing except for a few minor variations.
The power & ground blocks which I have included in your list is necessary for neatly distributing power and ground to both amps. Though you don't need a cap in the loop, you still will want the power block. They will give a cosmetically clean way to go from the 4 gauge main wire to separate 8 gauge to each amp.
They are separate but only run about $6. There is a another on the site that is only 4 bucks, just different color. Hey, every penny counts in the end...
Ash on 11/23/2007 23:30:34
So how are you coming along with your plans? Sticking to your guns with this so far? Hope so...
Keep us updated.
Ash
iXvXi on 11/24/2007 17:59:13
Yeah I'm not giving up yet
I got a little more accurate measurement for the RCA cables..
I got 9 1/4 to the speaker and 12' to the Head Unit
( Without Extra for Uh-Oh )
I figured the remote cable would be about the same sense they are both going to the same place
So basically all I need is wiring then I'm ready to purchase...
( Any help with that sense you said I needed to measure for a complete list? )
Will I need a rubber grommet for the power wire sense I'm going through the firewall?
Final List
( Without Wiring )
1000W Sub amp
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_8570_Kenwood+KAC-8103D.html
Sub Woofer Box
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_7606_Sonic+Sub+Box-+2H12-2.0.html
Subs -- Need 2
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_2206_Rockford+Fosgate+Punch+P212S4.html#
Front Speaker
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=51400&i=1086422CF&tp=100
Rear Speaker
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_5177_Infinity+Reference+9612i.html
4 Channel amp
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_6553_Hifonics+Titan+TXi+4406.html
$543.94
$606.41 with Shipping
This is what we put together but is there any reason why these wont work because I'm about to go through with all of this and I don't wanna hear that they don't work when everything is all bought
Ash on 11/24/2007 20:11:49
Looks good so far... The only issue I see is the rear speakers (6x9) may have some kind of fitment issue according to Crutchfield. Enter in your auto and you see. Yet they don't tell you why....
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?i=1089612I&tp=91&tab=features_and_specs
Not sure exactly why, but obviously it is not a "drop in" item. Can you take a look to see how the speaker in the rear is mounted? Is it from underneath the rear deck (bottom mount) or sitting on top of the rear deck (top or flush mount)?
Sometimes, the tweeter on a 2-way speaker may sit up too high and interfere with the factory panels. This could be the case. Also the bracket that GM normally uses to hold the speaker up against the rear deck may not be of use with that speaker. Hard to tell. That's where you will have to get in there to see what is the deal.
Other than that, another speaker may have to be used.
iXvXi on 11/25/2007 04:24:39
Good catch...
I'll just go with a new speaker then...
Its getting late so I'll find one tom.
Ash on 11/25/2007 09:28:22
I definitely don't know everything, so before you make any moves it would be best to consult some of the others on this. There are several of us here that are very experienced in that matter.
Maybe UK, Swez, etc will have a solution to it so you can move forward in your plans.
Waddya fellas?
iXvXi on 11/25/2007 13:00:12
I sent this list to another forum and they beat it down...
A couple things they said was
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
theres a lotta threads on a full system upgrade....look at them cuz what you got is just......wrong.
and who has ever seen a power curve like this?
# 220 watts RMS x 2 channels at 4 ohms
# 110 watts RMS x 2 channels at 2 ohms
thats whats on the site for the hifonics amp.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
out of that list i personally would not touch a single thing.
Hank
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's okay because I'm pretty sure that they have no clue what they are talking about..
Truth is, Clubknowledge is da bomb..
From what Hank said, makes me like this forum to the point where that forum doesn't compare..
ohh and Hank is there specialist
swez on 11/25/2007 13:38:58
Hank is better off there and not here.... hehe LOL
We'd have a lot of re-training to do with this fella and I have little patience for foolish people and their stubborn ignorance. If a man is teachable, he is always welcome here. However, when we run across folks who are not teachable, argue at the drop of a hat and cannot admit erronous thinking.... well, it's best to just ignore them and move along.
The specs on that HiFonics amp do not look right to me at all. OK, I looked and it's a 4 channel amp. I can see it reading more like this:
55 watts x 4 @ 4 ohms, all channels run separately
110 Watts x 2 @ 4 ohms/ch Stereo (2 channels bridged x 2)
220 Watts x 2 @ 2 ohms Stereo (2 channels bridged and 2 ohms may not work well or power drop at low ohmic loads) I dunno about this one. Most Class A/B amps don't handle loads under 4 ohms well when bridged. If they have a high current feature, (HC power supply) I can see this being possible. But conventional A/B amps do not do well with 2 ohm loads when bridged.
As for the rear speakers, one has to look at the mounting clearances carefully before diving in. Some of the really strong 6x9 speakers out there are very deep and OEM mounting hardware will not work. Here, we have a few choices:
1. Buy what fits as a drop in replacement
2. Buy what needs only minor modifications to make them fit
3. Scale back on the power, size and features of a give speaker so that it does fit w/o major hardware mods.
The last one makes a lot of sense as rear speakers don't need a lot of power to fill in the back stage. In most sedans, we can expect about +6dB more SPL then what is common from the front stage speakers. This is due to location of the rear speakers and how they often bounce off the rear window.
Most guys will use strong Comps up front and lower power Coaxials in back to get a nice F/R stage balance. It's not uncommon to use 100 watts per speaker up front and need about half that much in the rear to blend the F/R stages well. Yes, it does take some careful tuning and tweaking, but the results will be well above average in the end.
Swez
Ash on 11/25/2007 16:23:46
To show what Hank don't know is that you take it all with a "grain o' salt". Of course sometimes people make errors in advertising, but what Hank forgot to look at is lower down was the real specs.
Also if you will look at the the pics and scan the amp you will find a decent fuse rating that will confirm it's real output. Pay Hank no attention. Rest assured I always look up the product manual if possible at the manufacturer's website for further confirmation:
http://www.maxxsonics.com/hifonics/pdfs/specs_TitanBrutusZeusAmps.pdf
Swez has a good point here and surely nothing is set in stone when making plans. If you can't find a suitable rear in Infinity, there are other options that you have. With the use of these up front you will be able to use a better performing component set:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-9Nj93EeB0dz/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?I=120823300
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/L-6C/detail.asp
Powerbass is a good brand and also has a vast array of speakers to choose from that should fit in the rear deck. Those particular ones will pull good performance out of that amp with a 3 ohm load. That will be a better jump on the Infinity. Then you could go with a pair of these in the rear attached to another 6x9 adapter bracket:
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/L-522/detail.asp
iXvXi on 11/26/2007 09:49:09
I think I might do the bracket method..
Couple of questions..
For the front bracket; do you need to do some cutting in order to make them fit??? If so How much??
also I'm not to familiar with component speaker kits...It looks like the tweeter is separate so will I have to drill to Install them?
And will I need to change up some wiring sense I'm no longer using the infinity's??
Ash on 11/26/2007 15:28:01
They should mate right up as they are made for that specific car. You may have to trim the inside of the bracket to match the mounting diameter, but that fairly easy with a dremel or some sort of cutting tool.
Component sets have a separate woofer and tweeter which is optimized by a passive crossover. By having them separate, this opens up doors to custom installation. You can put the tweeter where it sounds best while the larger woofer will pump out more midbass and better midrange. The tweeter can be surface mounted for ease, or flush mounted (face even with door panel) for a bit better sound. You may or may not have to drill a tiny hole for wiring. Depends on where you want it. A good surface mount place is on the top far corners of the dash facing towards the center of the windshield or dome light.
The only thing you will need to do with the wiring is add a few more feet depending on where you mount the tweeter. It may come with enough wire to do what you want, but to make sure order a couple more feet per side. It's always a help to have extra speaker wire on hand in case you move something.
Those aren't a bad deal at all, will sound better and may cost the same or less.
jamesp on 11/26/2007 18:03:41
Sonic did kind of mess up the description of that amp but got it right down lower in the specs.
One bad thing though...they are OUT of STOCK at sonicelectronics.
You can click on the text and they will email you when product comed in...if you want to wait.....
IxvXi..one thing about this forum, it is a relativley small community and you will not be steered in the wrong direction....for example, If some relative newbie, like me..gave you some bum advice here by accident, it would soon be pointed out one of the experienced members and they would even be polite about doing it.
When I was searching the net for car audio info last year, what amazed me was that when I posted questions almost immediatly members would start arguing and bad mouthing the other members recommendations. Some places were basicaly zoos. The guys that are walking you thru the process here are genuinely interested in seeing you get a decent setup at a reasonable price.
You are very fortunate to have a couple of guys with the audio knowlege that they have walking you thru the process.......Even though Swez is real old
Ash on 11/26/2007 20:00:53
Being out of stock right now probably won't hurt as we are just in the planning stages, right? Plus there are a few other sources to get if from with similar prices if need be.
When I first stumbled upon CK (about 7 or so odd years ago under another name) I was the same way. Sometimes when you don't know, you always try to find the truth in what is being given to you and that's okay. Your'e supposed to. Doing the same, I've ran across several ridiculous sites where some of the people knew, but didn't know how to convey. Others were rather brand struck and unless it was brand "X", it was a peice of crap, etc, etc.
I couldn't except that as I have been playing with car audio since 1991 or so, tried numerous brands & setups, and found that beyond brands was the realm of install igenuity. If half of those guys (maybe more) took the time to really dive into what they were doing instead of just living through someone elses words & works, they would have a better understanding. Judging a product because of a misprint is ignorant.
Sometimes "hidden jewels" exist because we refuse to look, turn a blind eye in misbelief, or turn our noses up to them. The kind of people on those forums down certain ideas because they lack the creativity, knowledge, or drive to follow a different path. They rather idolize behind the masses, or think that more money paid will guarantee a better outcome. Don't get me wrong, there is some crappy stuff out there, but learning to take something mediocre to it's fullest potential is more a fulfilling challenge rather than following popularity. Afterall, it is the quality of install that will make the final difference, not the brand.
iXvXi on 11/27/2007 09:40:31
Yeah I seen that.. I'm trying to get this planned as fast as I can without making any mistakes because everyone is Christmas shopping and a lot of the stuff I'm buying is going on back order..
Also I was told
I would ditch the rear 6x9 speaker as they will just distort badly with the sub pounding away on them. At the very least, you must seal them off from the trunk area to make decent use of them
Would This happen??
I would think just the front 2 would not be loud enough
Ash on 11/27/2007 18:14:10
The subs will have a slight affect on the rears as they will play into the same space (trunk). However, distortion won't be a problem as they will be hi passed into a range (80-120hz) where the subs will not be playing.
Having a set of rears isn't all that necessary. The fronts will provide a good solid stage by themselves with the rears only as surrounds. Much like in a home theater. In this case the rears will add a little volume, but mostly some ambience throughout the vehicle. You will be able to turn them up as you like, but it is most preferred to have the sound coming at you like if you were at a concert. Give that some thought... When at a concert the stage is in front of you along with the live sound. This is what we try to recreate in the auto environment to keep the music sounding accurate as possible.
I wouldn't worry about the 6x9's much unless you are pushing some major air in the trunk. If it did become a problem there are simple solutions to that. The main focus you should have right now is getting a solid list so that you will get your gear by xmas. I believe we are very close to narrowing it down to some good items. For the money, it would be hard to beat what you have listed, so don't sweat the little things.
swez on 11/27/2007 19:29:00
The rear speakers "may be subjected" to undue cone movement if the sub(s) in trunk is/are strong. In some vehicles, this is barely an issue. In other vehicles, it is a real problem and we either delete the rear speakers, move then to rear door panels or isolate them from bass waves in the truck.
All of these variables are doable and can be adjusted/adapted for. This is especially an issue in rear window mounted speakers and a strong sub in the trunk. (I've had that problem and so have other guys I have worked with on sedans)
SUV's and hatchbacks are not as severe. The rear speakers are not sharing the same air chamber. (The enclosed trunk) Isolating the rear speaker cones so the subwoofer has little affect is the key issue to grapple with. I my last install, I had to use baffles to block lsubwoofer bass to the rear 6x9's. Once that was overcome, the results were very good. (W/o the baffles, the 6x9's sounded terrible)
Swez
iXvXi on 11/28/2007 09:15:11
Okay sounds good..
I have everything for my list as far as Amps and speakers..
Is there anything else I need In order for everything to work??
I don't have the wiring yet besides that list of links Ash gave me..
(Is the list complete?)
I'm still debating on using the component speakers in the front because of all of the separate parts I need to install..Will they make a huge difference in sound quality or actual performance?
Unless they are easier to install then it looks
Ash on 11/28/2007 15:51:36
The hardest part about comps is figuring out where to mount the tweeter and that's about it (i.e. very simple). As far as wiring there are several ways to do it.
Some people mount the crossover in the doors for simplicity if both tweeter and woofer are in the doors. This can pose a problem if water should get in the door and destroy the crossover.
Others mount them behind the carpet deep in the footwells when the tweeter is dash mounted and the woofer still in the door. This also is useful too when using kickpanels for speaker placement. Less drawbacks with this option except for possible visible bulges in the carpet if not done right.
They also can be put on the kickpanels or just about anywhere not to far from the speakers themselves though some do it anyway. They are very versatile and will provide much better performance in sound quality and staging than most 2 way coaxial speakers.
iXvXi on 11/29/2007 12:49:27
I cant seem to find brackets that will work with the back speakers..
Also, Is that list Ash gave me for wiring complete or should I just buy a kit from soniceltronix or crutchfield??
Ash on 11/29/2007 17:11:18
The brackets are simple 6x9" to 5.25"- 6-5" adapters which can almost be found anywhere car audio is sold. Some minor trimming may have to be done to fit the basket of any particular speaker.
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?showAll=N&g=103200&i=142SA69&tp=919
As far as the list went, I drew out a diagram of how the system would be wired containing the necessary components. All should be there. To double check you can do the same to see if I missed anything. Plus this will give you a feel for what you need to do to hook everything up right.
Remember, that Hifonics amp has a input selector switch that will allow all 4 channels to be run with a single pair (left, right) of rca. This will only allow fading between the front and rear speakers on the amp, not the HU. The other rca will feed the subs to allow sub fading from the HU. This is good when playing different types of music and the sub's volume need to be adjusted.
swez on 11/29/2007 17:35:52
After buying, using and recommending Knukonceptz wiring and hardware, there are few in the price, service and quality range that match up and can be bought from one supplier. (That's my personal experience, but Stinger, Monster and Street Wires are also fine products... just tend to be more expensive.
As far as having the full product list of things needed, refresh the list if you are unsure. Here are the basics:
1. Main fuse and holder at battery
2. #4 Power line from Bat to fuse holder to D-block (fused D-block) are best if your amp(s) do not have external fuses
3. Adequate RCA wires and correct lengths from HU to amp(s)
4. Speaker wire can be generic if you wish (#16 gage from amp to any full range speaker used
5. Firewall grommet (#4 gage)
6. Remote wire from HU to each amp used (#18 generic is OK)
7. Optional: Grounding D-block iF dual amps are used
8. Battery/Ground connectors as needed
9. Ground cables for each amp and connectors to chassis (under 3 feet per amp grounding wire)
That pretty much covers the basic wire and hardware needs for most systems. It all depends on the amp channels needed and a close fit length of RCA's, power and speaker lines.
Comments,
Swez
iXvXi on 11/29/2007 22:35:29
wow, awesome..
that seemed to help a lot
I think I might almost be completely done with my list
Thanks again guys for everything
swez on 11/30/2007 02:04:13
Made a few quick adjustments to the listing, but just to tidy it up a bit.
Also, remember that #4 gage is fine up to about 100 A's current draw for the main power line feeder. (Keep it under 16' and use #4 or 8 gage lines off the D-block to feed your amps) Here, 3-4 feet of wire out of the D-block will have minimal line losses.
Are you getting geeked up yet? hehe
Swez
iXvXi on 12/3/2007 23:27:50
My dead line is almost over so I need a wiring list..
I really don't care how much it costs right now because of the dead line...
I decided to go with everything you suggested..So this is the final list..And I know I said that before but this is what I'm going with unless you find another problem..
1000W Sub amp
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_8570_Kenwood+KAC-8103D.html
Sub Woofer Box
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_7606_Sonic+Sub+Box-+2H12-2.0.html
Subs -- Need 2
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_2206_Rockford+Fosgate+Punch+P212S4.html#
Front Speaker
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/L-6C/detail.asp
Rear Speaker
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/L-522/detail.asp
4 Channel amp
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_6553_Hifonics+Titan+TXi+4406.html
Brackets
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-9Nj93EeB0dz/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?I=120823300
Brackets
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_4965_Scosche+SA69.html
533.89 With Shipping :)
I still don't know whether to just buy a kit or to buy it separate from http://www.knukonceptz.com
This is the last thing I need so I need a complete list with everything...
Once again I thank each and everyone of you that helped me through this process..
Hopefully I don't just stop here, I would like to learn more and maybe enough to help others..
swez on 12/4/2007 03:54:07
Dead lines are fine when one is skilled and has a solid knowledge of any given project. But when we are new and learning, goals with milestones are far better gages to focus on. We cannot rush the learning curve unless other skilled hands are in the project and can help us through the "unkown variables", (snags and gotchas) that come with the unknowns. This process takes time to do it well and obtain better than average results when done.
Time lines are fine as guides, but not when we don't know what we don't know. It's sets the rookie up for a bad experience, lots of frustration and many setbacks when we rush the process with "unrealistic" deadlines.
OK, sub amp, box and subs are a go! But the box will need some internal modifications for optimum results!!!
You will find this box a tad too large, (Internally) and have to add material, (wood blocks) inside to adjust bass clarity and punch. Each chamber is ~1.2cf/sub. Optimal for this sub is more like 0.85 - 0.9 cf sealed/sub. (See what I mean about gotchas?) We'll walk you through those steps once the products come in. (Easy to do, but takes some extra labor on your part to get it right the first time)
Front speakers are a good choice if good fitment is possible. What is the stock factory speaker size in this vehicle now? Depending on your answer, we may need to consider a different size in Powerbass speakers used.
Same issue in rear speakers. If you have 6x9's as stock, the rear speaker choice may need to be changed as well.
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/category/Speakers/manufacturer/Powerbass/prod.asp
4 Channel Amp:
http://www.maxxsonics.com/hifonics/amps_titan.html
From what I see here, one can expect a solid 75-85 watts RMS x 4 @ 3 ohms per channel. (Powerbass speakers are rated at 3 ohms) This amp does not list fuse ratings or power consumption. Some rough calculations indicate 45-50 A's current draw at full power for this amp. This amp is strong and will demand careful attention when setting it up with all other gear mentioned.
The amp maker suggests #4 gage wiring here. But at the wattage range you'll be using, #8 power and ground will be sufficient. (Hum, another gotcha huh?)
As for your wiring needs, Knu offers packages, but you'll need other wiring and hardware not found in their kits. The question here is about the sub amp signal wiring needs. The Titan amp has 4 inputs and 2 pass through preout for a sub amp if you go this route.
The Kenwood amp does not have a remote bass control feature. That means either careful gain control settings are used or we can use the HU Sub out if the HU has a separate menu for the sub channel. (Yet another potential gotcha)
See what I mean about the complexity of designing a system of this nature? There are many ways to configure this system and much will depend on the HU features available.
A little more planning time is in order here, before pulling the trigger and buying what is needed. Don't rush the process with meaningless dead lines or it will cause problems later. Take it slow and steady now and it will pay off later. (Milestones and the end results are more important than having an unrealistic dead line) Get my drift?
What say you?
Swez
Ash on 12/4/2007 03:57:59
Like Swez stated, Knukonceptz is top of the line gear that is very cost effective. Either way, buy your wiring products from them. Just be sure to get everything in the list and all will be fine. If you do separate lists and compare the pricing you will see which will save you more money....
iXvXi on 12/4/2007 09:33:11
Yeah I'm starting to wish I had started this process earlier..
The modifications and labor are fine, the only dead line is the ordering..
Sonicelectronix has free shipping for the holidays so I'm trying to order everything from there as soon as possible because shipping adds up and with this special I save around $150.00..
The car specs of the car is 4x6 in the front and 6x9 in the back...
Unless the car speakers are a different size then stated
Also I'm definitely going through Knukonceptz because all of the positive feed back I been getting..I just didnt know if that was the complete list or not
jamesp on 12/4/2007 11:32:18
If you are on a tight schedule to get the equipment...you may need to choose another sub box because the one in the Sonic Electronic link is OUT OF STOCK dude.
iXvXi on 12/4/2007 15:45:51
Yeah I'm going to call tonight and see how long they are going to be on back order...
Which rears should I use??
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/S-693/detail.asp
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/L-693/detail.asp
The first one has 4 ohm and the second has a 3 ohm load..Which one would be more efficient for the Hifonics amp??
Also for the front component system..They only have 5.25 and 6.5 so should I just keep the 5.25 and use the mounting bracket?
iXvXi on 12/4/2007 23:35:10
Also, the smallest front component speaker system is a 5.25...
So should I go with the regular 4x6???
swez on 12/5/2007 04:51:56
Hum, 4x6 speakers in the front stage can be very confining. However, this is not a bad option if we use them for mids and highs only. The rear stage can fill in the midbass and the additional bass to balance things out.
Another option may be 4x6 plates, coupled with midbass speakers in the doors, kick panels or even a center console. This option greatly improves the front stage performance and range of options. There are many ways to get there from here to explore. (Now is the time to plan, think about options and then pull the trigger)
What vehicle are we talking about here anyway?
Finally, this is a soft economy and price cuts are inevitable if the Christmas sales are soft. Better deals usually come in January if/when a seller realizes he has too much inventory, sales and profits were below par and now it's blow out time... selling at deeper discounts and offering more deals to move heavily loaded inventory are often the norm.
Sure, retailers and e-tailers hope for the best. But if that never happens for one reason or another, they have a major dilemma to recover from. This is when the best deals hit the table. Wait for them and it will pay off nicely later.
Comments?
Swez
jamesp on 12/5/2007 07:35:09
Where I live, inventory tax is paid on everything that is on the floor as of January 1st. This makes it hard for me to justify an over abundance of stock at the peak selling season. My hardware store was ot auch a problem as the Christmas season didnt affect sales so much. My wifeys store is a different story though.In other words, we wantyed the merchandise out the door prior to January 1....
iXvXi on 12/5/2007 09:46:47
1997 Chevrolet Cavalier Z24...
So basically I should Spend a little more time planning the speakers??
I must buy 70% of everything by today..( Moms Demands) So Should I buy everything I'm sure of and wait a little later to get the speakers??
So everything I'm ordering today is..
Both amps, Subs, Sub Box ( Its on Back order so I might have to order later)
And the wiring list ASH gave me
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLM-K4
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLA-5M
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=PB-1448
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=PB-1448G
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLM8PRL
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KOL8BL
Unless Wiring is to early to..
For the Wiring; Will I definitely need everything in this list?? I can always order new stuff that I need, I just don't want to buy something I'm not going to need or use
iXvXi on 12/5/2007 20:35:08
For this option here
Next options would be since both amps has crossovers & preouts, you could feed the 4 channel full range from the HU and then run a short full range rca from the 4 channnel preout to the bass amp. This uses the amp's crossovers soley. Much simpler, but makes tuning harder as you will have to make adjustments in the rear then sit up front to hear the difference. Could take a good while if your by yourself.
Is a 2 channel RCA considered a Full range??
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLA-5M
Also Is the Remote Turn On Lead included with the amps or do I have to buy it seperate because I been looking and I can't seem to find any
swez on 12/6/2007 05:43:01
For the 4 channel amp mentioned, this cable set is nice, compact and will get HU signals back to the 4 channel amp. Then, use a 2 wire pair from the 4 channel preouts to feed the sub inputs. (Much cheaper this way and easier to install too:
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KARSS4.4M
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KARSS2.1M
The remote turn on lead can be bought at any good hardware store in bulk. (#18 gage, standed copper is a good choice) 20 feet of that is cheap and easy to find.
Swez
iXvXi on 12/6/2007 09:58:17
Nice..So wiring is all done now..
Now back to the speakers, I think I'm going to just use 6x9's in the back so I don't have to deal with the brackets..
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/L-693/detail.asp
Then maybe a component set for the front..I just don't know where I would mount the tweeter and crossover..
How hard is component sets to set up?? It looks like I have some work ahead of me and sense I don't know a whole lot about car audio, I don't wanna get confused with crossovers.
Do you think everything is a go or should I wait a little longer?
ttocs on 12/6/2007 11:37:22
if you break up the install in to pieces it is managable. We can get ya through it.
Ash on 12/6/2007 18:55:59
Getting close to the end of things here I see with the holidays' coming up is putting you under some strain. Slooow down, go back, and take a look at the list that I gave you.....
When your system was mapped out, a diagram was drawn out on a piece of paper to see what was needed. Very minor things would be missing, if that.
As far as the 3 ohm speakers that was listed, the brackets were included to make them work. Even though they were extra parts, it was designed to give you the most output for your money and ease of install. If you change your mind that's okay, but still no matter what system parts you decide to use there will be some degree of manipulation to make it work. Remember, the rears had some sort of install issue using regular 6x9's and the fronts are compatible with different sizes as well. You might as well go bigger up front seeing that you can and it will sound better.
Don't forget as mentioned before, the Titan amp has a selectable 2/4 input that's capable of using only 1 pair of rca to feed the whole amp if necessary leaving the second rca to be fed straight to the sub amp. This option eliminates a the third rca and was chosen because subwoofer fading is used more than rear surround fading. Once you set the rears to blend with the fronts by the amp, there will be no need to adjust them afterwards. It is mostly the subs/highs that will benefit from adjustment depending on how strong or weak the bass is on the music you will play as your'e listening.
The amplifier install kit listed includes remote wire as well. A few extra feet will help depending on where the second amp is mounted. Still does not present a major problem as like said before, that is minor and can be found at any auto parts store and even Wallyworld.
If your dad has some simple woodworking tools (circular saw, jigsaw, and a drill) you could save a few bucks more by building the sub box yourself with his help. This way you can also control the subs output to a "T".
iXvXi on 12/7/2007 09:02:51
Yeah..I missed the holiday speacial for free shipping.. :(
And my dad has basically everything as far as woodwork and even electrical..He built an edition to our house but he mostly only knows house electrical.
But I talked to a local audio shop yesterday and as far as I could see I knew just as much as they did..For everything and installation they came to a total of $1400 so I know im getting my moneys worth.
If I was to build my own..is there a diagram or blueprint I would be able to follow?
swez on 12/8/2007 01:50:11
Yes, most sub makers will give the DIY'er guidlines for the optimal enclosure their sub needs. We can adjust H, W & D parameters to fit the space for install as needed. That's where careful measuring, planning and then build the box comes into the game.
Once we know these parameters, break out the the scaled drawing paper, a calculator and make a draft plan that fits and can be done with the tools on hand. There are several online resources to help as well.
Swez
PS Take your time, be patient and ask for help as needed. There are several skilled fabricators here at CK to guide you through the process.
Victor on 12/8/2007 02:28:28
If we are talking about the Rockford Fosgate P212S4
they would play good in a 1.5 cuft box tuned to 35Hz, for each sub.
iXvXi on 12/9/2007 19:18:58
Today I went to a audio shop and this is what I bought...
Single Sub
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_8754_Rockford+Fosgate+Punch+P2D412.html
Sub Amp
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=120&i=575P3001P&c=3&tp=115
Speaker amp
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=120&i=500MRPF250&c=3&tp=115
Sub Box
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7008542&productCategoryId=abcat0302036&type=product&tab=2&id=1099392684268#productdetail
The total was $581.23 with a 4 year warranty for the Sub..
I still need to get the speakers and wiring..
I know we went through this but the guy there said it was highly recommended that I get a capacitor..Is this true or is he just trying to get a sell??
Also I wanted to know what you thought about it because I went there to check prices and this is what I ended up coming out with..
Also I need a matching set of speakers that will go with the 4 Channel amp
Dave
this is my first build and I need to know what you guys think
Bass Package
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=208250&i=700TC4510B&tp=118
Head Unit
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=300&i=130DEHP390&tp=5684
Front and back speakers
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=400&i=130TSG1341&tp=105
Please Tell me how you feel before I buy and if I should change some things up..
Replies (91)
cplkittle on 11/5/2007 10:23:54
This is a very well balanced setup.
The mids are perfect for the Head unit amp, and the bass should be strong but not overpowering. I would say this is one of the best matched systems anyone has ever asked about. Very wisely planned.
I would say go for it.
Later on, if you want you might look at a 4 channel amp for the door speakers. Something around 50-75w RMS per channel will brighten up the mids and highs. The good thing is that you have speakers that will work well with or without an amplifier.
Your total is $560.. not bad at all for a complete package. You still need the little things like RCA cables, power wire and an inline fuse and the radio harness. Should be able to get all of this for under $50.
Thinking ahead, are you planning on adding to this system? 4 channel, a bigger sub amp, a second sub amp? If so, it would be wise to go ahead and run 4 gauge instead of 8 gauge for power. The larger wire will allow for upgrades. If you run the 8 ga wire now and upgrade later, you will have to replace the 8 ga with 4 ga anyway, so why not run the 4ga now and not have to worry about spending more later.
iXvXi on 11/5/2007 20:43:30
Thanks..
I never actually built a car setup so i'm doing as much research as I can before I actually do anything..
I have a 1997 Cavalier Z24 and I heard that in bigger setups you need to buy new alternator's and capacitor's and stuff.
will I need to buy any of that stuff in order to use them??
cplkittle on 11/5/2007 20:55:27
You should not need any of that. You can do the big 3 if you want, and maybe buy a yellow top battery, but it is not necessary for the stereo system.
Normally a vehicle's charging system will stand up to 600-800 watts pretty well. Once you break 1000 watts, you tend to see the dimming lights and voltage problems.
Ash on 11/5/2007 20:56:55
That is a very decent budget system. You will be fine with stock electricals.
You might also want to look into some form of bass blockers (passive high pass) for the front and rear speakers. This will help them stay clean and last longer. Going with a passive 6db slope on speakers that go down to 60hz, you will need to cap them off around 200-240hz. Bleed through will let them actually play down around 100-120hz which is a good point for a 5.25".
That should net some good blending when the subs are low passed around 80hz.
Simple, but effective, none the less.
iXvXi on 11/7/2007 09:33:48
I will eventually get another amp for my door speakers and I might look into a bass blocker but will I then need to put in a capacitor or something like that?? because I pefer not to if I dont need one
cplkittle on 11/7/2007 09:59:07
Capacitors are pretty much useless. They do work to some degree, but only if the stereo system does not already exceed the electrical capabilities of the charging system.
Let's compare it to money:
The alternator is like your job. It puts out a set amount of electricity depending on how much it is worked. This is your salary. We'll say 105 amp alternators equals $105/day.
The battery is your bank. You can get bigger banks (optima yellow top battery) that have smaller fees (less internal resistance and less voltage loss).
The amplifiers are your bills. The more bills you have the more money you need to make. And when you exceed your income, budgets are cut in other places (headlights dim, voltage drops).
Now a capacitor is like a credit card that you have to pay the balance in full monthly. If you spend more than you make, you don't need one. You need a higher paying job.
If you really don't need one and make enough money to buy everything you want, it will help out a little by making it easier to pay for everything.
And I guess the only thing I can compare the big 3 upgrade to is online bill paying or automatic drafts, making it easier for money to travel from one place to another.
If you plan to add another amplifier later on, you may want to go ahead and run a power wire that will carry both amps now instead of running a small one now, and replacing it with a larger one later.
iXvXi on 11/7/2007 20:23:24
Thanks that helped a lot.. haha loved the caparison
swez on 11/7/2007 23:55:02
Well said Kit! Good analogy.
Swez
iXvXi on 11/9/2007 21:23:26
what bass package should I use??? this one
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=208250&i=700TCRT12&tp=118
or my original??
Ash on 11/10/2007 20:13:41
Both have an problem as that amp doesn't match well with the first. The amp is only rated to put out 300 rms @ 2 ohms, but the subs handle 250 each? Grossly mismatched for maximum efficiency. It's barely over the halfway mark.
As for the second, the Road Thunder series aren't very good either. The subs from both packages are large box formats. They put them in small boxes to make them robust which requires more power and degrades bottom end output.
Got a definite budget for the sub/amp package? Maybe we can help find you something of better sound quality.
swez on 11/11/2007 03:50:17
This is a 2 channel amp and the subs are a net 4 ohm load. (Probably a pair of 8 ohm SVC subs, wired in parallel)
If the amp is bridged MONO, you can expect a solid 300 Wrms to a 4 ohm load. As Ash said, RT subs are not high end subs. They are just OK at best. This amp is a Class A/B amp too. That means low efficiency and more power consumed to produce rated output.
A Class D amp paired with a net 2 ohm sub system would be more effecient and often more bang for your buck.
Swez
Ash on 11/11/2007 05:35:31
Well I'll be slapped and slammed. Good catch Swez!
What kinda bass package uses a 2 channel amp with 4 ohm subs? Must be trying to get rid of low selling stock.
Depending on what you are exactly wanting, I know a couple of sources that I have using to build very low cost, but matched sub systems. Good for beginners that don't want to dive too deep.
swez on 11/11/2007 12:01:53
Hehe, that's what happens when we get out of the trenches for a little while and come back to visit w/ fresh eyeballs. ;~)
It's not a bad "get up and go" system here at all. But if a guy wants a well optimized system that really pushes out some deep bass, Ash can help ya get there on a reasonable budget.
Swez
Ash on 11/11/2007 16:23:59
This box has the right airspace for the subs I recommend. You should contact them to see what the cutout diameter is to make sure of a good fit and seal. The subs need, I believe, a 11". Depending on where you live the shipping may be up there, but when I used my zip (NW Florida) the total came about the same as one in a retail store. If you can build one yourself you will cut the price down a bit.
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_7604_Sonic+Sub+Box-+2H12-1.5.html
These I have used several times and have recommended them to others in need. They come in either 4 or 2 ohm so you pretty much can use whatever amp you choose as long as it supplies 400 rms. Read the reviews..
http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=92&products_id=183
As for power this Kenwood should suffice nicely. You may be able to find it on ebay for cheaper like the latter....
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_8570_Kenwood+KAC-8103D.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-KENWOOD-KAC-8103D-1000-W-SUB-MONO-POWER-AMPLIFIER_W0QQitemZ180178888664QQihZ008QQcategoryZ64570QQtcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
When all is said and done you only saved a few bucks over the crutchfield package. In my zip code, that was roughly about $44. The main thing is better components in the self made package makes for better performance.
swez on 11/11/2007 22:24:25
Hehe, I looked at that last link and what a bunch of hogwash and hype! This guy should be writing campaign speeches for Hillary. That would ensure her defeat in 2008. LOL
"Kenwood is the top manufacturer of car audio amplifiers . Their amps are best sellers in our retail stores. KENWOOD represents a great value in terms of performance and quality. Dollar for dollar, there are no other amps that compare on a feature and power basis! The construction is heavy duty."
The truth is.... Kenwood is a moderate priced, almost meets spec and a decent value for the money spent. They are reliable when used as designed, but nothing extra special. Are there better products out there? Of coarse, but they cost more too.
Swez
trunkisloud on 11/11/2007 23:38:10
hey thanx for that link to the ed subs...i think i may purchase a couple to replace the comp vr 10's in the truck since my bro wants them..and they are nicely priced....do they have the potential to get loud??...have you installed them in ported enclosures/? im thinking 4 8's behind the seat....what can you say on this subject there ash?
Ash on 11/12/2007 02:56:10
Yeah, he's like Flava Flav with that one , huh. Sad part is I didn't even pay it any attention. People are going to buy want they want to regardless of what crap you stuff them with. If anything, you might turn them away just from lying....
Um, no Trunk. " These are not for you, you'll put your'e eye out or something. They hit so hard, they can cause I.B.S from your guts shakin'. Your windshield will crack. Your ears will bleed and you'll be deef, that's right deef, in just a day. Their so underrated on power, your light bill will sky rocket. And it only costs 15 bucks!!!!
I'd make a horrible salesman, huh?
Seriously, though Trunk... These are not a "cure all" deal. A lot of aspects have to be weighed before using them.
First, at that price, there is no warranty (which most don't care for anyway). Secondly, notice the larger boxes they require. Modeled in WIN ISD, the 8" looks okay in smaller, but if ED recommends the larger I would stick with it. I already tried that one with the 12". Efficiency wise the 8" is not that great either.
I thought about running 6 of those 8's one time. After doing some number crunching, I found that three 12's would have been better.
They are probable ok for someone looking for a little something and has room to spare. Not that they probably don't sound good, but most will find the space requirement a bit much for such a small woofer.
iXvXi on 11/12/2007 09:38:45
wow ummm okay??
I dont really know what went on...
Im guessing everyone dissagrees with the package so can anyone give me a good package..
I already bought the head unit so we cant change that but change what ever you want...
I need speakers, amps, and subs
When everyone agrees on a good package then I'll buy it.
I have around a 600-700 dollar spending limit
Please post the links and then I'll find the cheapest place to buy them..
GO CRAZY!!!
Thank You :-)
Ash on 11/12/2007 15:24:33
What about the items I posted. Comes to about 40-50 bucks less than Crutchfield's deal and is better matched. The money saved could be used for a wiring kit.
That should leave around half of your budget to get some better highs and even a 4 channel amp to drive them. Then you will have a full blown system. Still will be easy on the car's electrics.
Thing I've noticed is that if the Z24 is what it is being installed in, then you have 4x6" up front and 6x9" in the back.
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_9935_Infinity+Reference+6422cfp.html
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_5177_Infinity+Reference+9612i.html
These would make for a much nicer upgrade although those 4x6" would have to be driven with a amp because of the 2 ohm load. You may be able to find the older version in a 4 ohm for a little less.
Tally up what you have now and see if that fits the bill.
swez on 11/12/2007 18:50:26
Dem dogs will hunt. Having 2 ohm speakers up front and 4 ohm units in the back are a nice balance for/withy a modest 4 channel amp.
The 4x6 plates say 72 Hz, but not when powering them over about 40 watts or so. Here, these can be filtered to play above 150 Hz and let the rear 6x9's handle the 80 Hz and up stuff.
As for your sub(s), we usually suggest 80 - 100 Hz low pass filtering. If ports are used, you'll want to use a subsonic filter to protect the subs. (Sealed sub do not require an SSF feature)
Swez
Ash on 11/12/2007 19:25:12
A decent package all together indeed if he goes for it. Yes it's hard to get past not running "high end" gear, but a lot of it is hype when it comes to the average ear.
Setting it up right is the key and accounts for a large portion of the end result. When listening to stock for a while, one would be amazed how little we actually need.
iXvXi on 11/13/2007 09:21:43
looks promising,
Couple more questions-- for the subs ASH said should I get a 2 or 4 Voice Cois with the Kenwood amp
Also with the speakers-- you said I would need another amp to power them, Can anyone give me a link that will work well with them??
Ash on 11/13/2007 11:06:35
For that Kenwood, you should use two 4 ohm subwoofers wired in parallel (positive to positive & negative to negative). That will pull the most wattage from the amp.
Those subs are pretty efficient so it's important to not go too small on the box. 1.5 cubic feet minimum each (3 total). Sounds big I know, but that is the norm for big subs.
If you go with that box, make sure you call them to see if the cutout is 11". Too small and it can be trimmed. On the big side is a no-no, you will have gaps where the screws go (major air leaks).
As for a amp I've been doing some extensive searching for something that is fairly clean with enough watts. Here a good factor to look for would be around .05 THD%. You want good clean power for your highs.
Scratch the infiinty front setup. For some reason Crutchfield says the plates won't fit but a normal 4x6" will. In that case you might want to see what they offer in a bigger size as they will give you the mounting brackets and plugs free. A good 6.5" would be nice and then power will not be a problem.
Have you totalled up what you have left after whatever components you have chosen. That might help with finding a decent amp. I want to help save you money, but at the same time let's not short change you on quality.
Holla back..
Ash on 11/13/2007 12:00:08
This will fit directly and keeps your 2 ohm load.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-07-INFINITY-REFERENCE-6422CF-4X6-2-WAY-CAR-SPEAKERS_W0QQitemZ250183542513QQihZ015QQcategoryZ14939QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
When looking for a amp, something in the range of 40-50 rms watts @ 4 ohms will do since you will extract more power from the fronts when drop down to a 2 ohm. The rear at 4 ohms, 40-50 watts rms will do fine as you don't want to overpower the front speakers. Here you will get a nice rear fill effect. Don't forget we want low distortion rates and high signal to noise ratios if possible for clean upper end output. Also look for additional rca outputs so it can feed another amp you bass amp a signal.
Example:
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_10193_Clarion+APX4240.html
Notice how the Clarion amp rates in the total harmonic distortion and it's signal to noise. That's what we don't want. It could be better than that.
Now look at the difference in the Hifonics amp:
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_6553_Hifonics+Titan+TXi+4406.html
See the difference? Small but those little things count. Don't fear the high power ratings of the Hifonics. They are a little overrated, but not bad enough to not to consider. In fact that would be a good one.
Just remember to take your time looking through stuff. There is no rush to do it all now. Saving for later can net you even better gear. That is up to you. I'm just trying to show you ways to save money and still get decent gear. The money you save will help on hidden things like a amp wiring kit, extra rca's and other small items like that.
We'll checkout Knukonceptz.com for your wiring when we reach that point. Good deals with excellent quality there.
iXvXi on 11/15/2007 09:34:12
Okay I changes some things up a little bit.
1000W amp
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_8570_Kenwood+KAC-8103D.html
Sub Woofer Box
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?i=044H1712DS&tp=127
Subs -- Need 2
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=520&i=130TSW301R&tp=111
Front Speaker
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=51400&i=1086422CF&tp=100
Rear Speaker
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_5177_Infinity+Reference+9612i.html
4 Gauge Wiring Kit
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_7228_e2+E1000+by+Scosche.html
Then I need a amp to power the speakers.. can anyone give me a little help with that??? and Will these all work together??
My head unit is a Pioneer DEH-P3900MP
My car is a Chevy Cavalier Z24-- 4x6 In the Front and 6x9 in the Rear
If you say they will work fine then I'm going to go for it ( Including the amp for the speakers)
This is everything I'm buying so if I need something that's missing in the wiring kit or anything in general please tell me.
Thanks
iXvXi on 11/15/2007 09:52:13
And one other thing does Sonicelectronix give you everything you need to install it like Crutchfield or do you have to buy wiring and connectors and stuff separately..
Because Crutchfield makes is so easy to install everything..
I would buy everything from crutchfield but they dont have the same rear speakers as Sonicelectronix does..
If I have to buy everything separately from Sonicelectronix then I'd rather switch speakers to something similar to them that crutchfield has.
Ash on 11/15/2007 10:43:05
Only Crutchfield offer those items for free. However most don't use them if they are running a outboard amp; they run all new wire to the speakers.
For the rears, you may want to enter your vehicles info at Crutchfield and check to see what is available for a good fit. Apparenlty there are some issues with your back deck that makes "drop in fits" rather elusive. If your not willing to do some extra modifications, then your choice may be limited to what they offer.
iXvXi on 11/15/2007 17:50:09
All I really need to know is if they go together because im going to look on ebay for some cheaper prices
swez on 11/16/2007 05:52:06
E-bay is a good option for low priced gear at any quality range you wish. Most will give you quality products, low prices and perhaps a 1 year warranty they will service if something goes wrong.
Just remember to look at the comments and seller feedback ratings from buyers. If you see a number lower than 97% positive and a large number of sales, read the negative feedbacks before placing an order with that seller.
Swez
Ash on 11/16/2007 08:44:22
The sub and box is a no-go....
The Kenwood amp states a rating of 500 watts rms (@ 100hz). I would estimate that it is a solid 400. Not bad, but probably not enough for two decent 12".
The Pioneers are very efficient, but they have a extremely high Qts (.72) factor. This means they will require a fairly large box to get down low. Unfortunately, you cannot get high efficiency, relatively small enclosures, and deep extension in one package. One of those aspects has to be sacrificed. If you notice the specs on that sub it says up to 2 cubic feet per sub. That's a lot for sealed. High Q's aren't good for ported so that kinda kills things there as well.
An ideal sub for that amp is something like this:
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/P210S4/detail.asp
If your bent on using two 12", for the money the Edesigns EHQS 12" are hard to beat which are a good match for the Kenwood. I can testify to that as I put that same combo together for a friend. Plenty of output.
iXvXi on 11/16/2007 09:55:44
Here's Ash saving the day again..
I'm not really bent on anything, I'm just looking for a good system.
I'm willing to change anything
My parents are buying me everything for my birthday so as you probably already know they don't like to go-to a thousand sites to buy something
Okay I switched out the subs for the ones you recommended--
I think it would be so much easier if someone could give me a complete setup because when ever I put something that someone recommended it always gets changed-
Now that I switched the subs I will need a box that will fit, Sense Crutchfield doesn't have the same model I cant use the accessory recommendation.. Any suggestions?
Ash on 11/16/2007 11:05:00
Just got some free time to kill, and enjoy donating some time to the boards as I've gotten plenty of help before and still do... GRIN
Since your parents are buying your gear, do they have a set price? If you want to go to a one shop deal, Sonicelextronix is probably your best bet with the variety & prices they have.
First you must figure out exactly how you want your system to sound reasonably. Of course "mom and pop" probably won't buy you a "block boomer", but selecting the proper matching gear will net good results with some durability.
Which subs are you opting for, the Rockford P2's? Here you go in a 12" with a box to match. Stuff the box with just a little (50% per side) polyfill from Walmart's fabric section and there you go.
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_2206_Rockford+Fosgate+Punch+P212S4.html#
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_7606_Sonic+Sub+Box-+2H12-2.0.html
With this you can keep the same Kenwood and you saved your parents enough to get you a 4 channel amp for whatever highs you choose. Here's a couple good ones that's clean enough to consider:
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_6553_Hifonics+Titan+TXi+4406.html
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_6518_Hifonics+ZXi+3406.html
The first is a little powerful for the 4x6" in 2 ohm's but you can turn the gains down a bit to protect them. The extra power will lend extra headroom to stay clean, plus will make it easier to integrate upgrades later.
The latter will match the 2 ohm Infinity's better in power, but will be weaker if you ever upgrade and use 4 ohm speakers.
iXvXi on 11/17/2007 03:29:25
I can have more than one site, most likely Sonicelectronix, Crutchfield and Ebay..
ohh and can you say HUGE help..
Im going with that whole thing you just said.
And for the amps,how hard is it to turn the gains down? Because if it sounds better and cost less then im just going to go for it
Ash on 11/17/2007 05:22:37
Well, having more than one makes a big difference. Whatever you can't find at one the other may have.
Yeah, I think you will be happy with those subs. The P2's are a bit better than the P1's. A friend of mine has a 8" P2 in his lil' Mini Coop' and I was impressed. Was pretty decent for a single 8". With that whole setup you will be making a great jump over the stock. One thing to remember is to try not get caught up in the rat race of always trying to improve or adding more unnecessary gear to outdo someone else. It could turn from "something nice" to "one big mess". With any audio gear setup, the simpler the better.
Adjusting the gains on a amp is very simple, although it shouldn't be misused as a volume knob. You dial in where you need it to give good output without distortion or overpowering the speaker. Once it's set, leave it unless you know what you are doing and need to readjust.
swez on 11/17/2007 05:38:06
Gain adjustments are pretty easy if we use an AC voltmeter and signal tones, (50, 60 Hz) as a reference. This is true of sub amps, but not so easy with Component type speakers.
If we know the sub power handling specs and subwoofer coil resistance, we can calculate "RMS POWER" with Ohm's Law:
Voltage = the sq rt of Watts x Resistance
Example: 500 Watts, 2 ohm subwoofer load
Voltage = sq rt of 500 x 2 or sq rt of 1000
Voltage = 31.6 volts into a 2 ohm load = 500 watts power
There's a few variables to consider as we dial in a given system. (HU RCA voltage, Mid/High amp power and how much bass we want in a given setup) The key is knowing that most Aftermarket HU's deliver clean power at 80% of max volume dial settings. We can give you this detail when you are ready to optimize your system.
Swez
iXvXi on 11/17/2007 22:19:53
As for wiring You said go to
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productMaster.cfm?Category=Amp%20Installation%20Kits
What one will I need for both amps?
There seems to be a difference between 4 channel amp wiring and mono and I don't wanna buy the wrong one
Ash on 11/18/2007 06:23:55
With chosen setup including the Pioneer HU you have several options for wiring.
That HU has three pairs of rca outputs and is capable of controlling the crossover points of the amps plus subwoofer phase and volume. Easy for fine adjustments while in the listening position. Downside is less crossover points for dialing in the just the right amount. Plus 3 pairs of rca's will have to be installed and the Kenwoods crossover cannot be turned off so there will be a compromise between the chosen frequencies. May or may not be a problem for you.
Next options would be since both amps has crossovers & preouts, you could feed the 4 channel full range from the HU and then run a short full range rca from the 4 channnel preout to the bass amp. This uses the amp's crossovers soley. Much simpler, but makes tuning harder as you will have to make adjustments in the rear then sit up front to hear the difference. Could take a good while if your by yourself.
Third option is the Hifonics Titan amp has an input selector switch that allows all 4 channels to be fed with a 2 channel signal. With that option, you feed the amp a full range signal from the HU's front rca and the rear or subout rca to feed the sub amp. You lose fading between the interior speakers from the HU (will be amp controlled only), but you can control the sub with the HU. Not a bad option....
Setting up a crossover is can be somewhat time consuming as you make adjustments and then listen for the right points that work best for the speakers. You are also trying to get a good blending between all front, rear, and subs. You may need someone to help with that. They adjust while you listen to some your average tracks.
That being said you will definitely need a 4 channel amp kit, but then the sub rca is not included. Depending on your choice, a extra full length rca or a short (2-3 foot) rca will be needed. The latter option above will just use the 4 channel rca.
To neaten up things a bit in the trunk a couple of distribution blocks would be a help. These are good for splitting up the power wire to the amps without unsightly tie-ins wrapped in electrical tape and such (ghetto rigged). One for ground and one for positive battery.
Here the wire from the battery feeds to the blocks. Then short runs from the blocks to the amps. Ground vice versa...
It will help to get out there, and look in your trunk to see where you will mount the amps. Then take some measurements of how long each wire/cabe will need to be. A simple amp rack made from some carpeted wood attached to the trunk somewhere out of the way would make things neat. Your dad might can help with that. You don't want to mount the amps to the sub box as the vibrations can damage the amps over time.
Figuring all that, at minimum you can use this:
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLM-K4
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLA-5M
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=PB-1448
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=PB-1448G
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLM8PRL
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KOL8BL
For sub wiring you can get away with some 12 gauge if the runs are kept fairly short. Figure in some terminals for the speakers, if they don't come with them. The subs will need a set of four to connect to inside the box and that depends on the size wire you decide to use.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productMaster.cfm?Category=Installation%20Accessories
Up to 16 gauge wiring for the door speakers. I didn't post that because they were out of the less expensive ones. There were others, but your budget can determine what you want. The speaker wire included in the kit can be used for the rear speakers.
The included ring terminals should be enough to hookup the batt cable and ground distribution block to body/frame. Add a couple of spade terminals to hook to the Kenwood. All else will go through the dist' blocks and won't need connects.
All together it should come up around maybe $10 more than the already put together 4 awg 4 channel amp kit, but with all the stuff you need to hook everything up. If you opt for the 4 channel amp kit and then add it will be more.
For a complete list you need to measure so you'll know how much wire + a lil extra for "oops" factor. Get back with that then we can figure exactly what to get.
If I missed anything some of the others I'm sure will chime in.
iXvXi on 11/18/2007 15:53:15
Wow I never Realized how much stuff you need to get..
So far my total is $543.94 .. And that's with out wiring
and I'd say $650.00 would be my budget but If I have to I'll go over
Also where would I measure from for the wiring..
Soon as I get a complete list Ill start to worry about how to wire it.. so what ever method you suggest I should go with, I'll go with
Ash on 11/18/2007 16:12:22
What does the total include? We'll try to keep costs down on uneccessary stuff....
There's two ways to measure:
If you tap into the speaker leads for the fronts behind the radio, measure from there back. Follow the curves in which you will run the wires to get a good approximate.
Running the speaker wires into the doors will be the same except include length going into the doors and back.
The kit has enough except for the 8 gauge that runs to each amp off the main wire. Figure will you will mount the amps and measure the length where you will run those.
Pretty simple... You just got to imagine how it will all be laid out then write down what you will need plus a little extra. Not too much though.
Got it?
iXvXi on 11/18/2007 16:24:53
The total includes both amps, sub box, both subs, front speakers and rear speakers..
and I'll probably measure it all out tom. sense it will get dark in about 20 min..
also for the speaker measurements, do i have to take the whole speaker panel off just to measure it?
Ash on 11/18/2007 16:42:38
That's pretty good for the quality of components your opting for. Don't forget to add shipping, plus check for any shipping discounts for further savings.
You don't have to take anything apart yet. Just look where the speaker sits in the door and measure from there forward to where it will enter the car interior. Give a little for slack. Then down from that point to the floor, the floor and back into the trunk to where the amps will sit. Follow whatever routes it will take to hide them. Doesn't have to be exact, you just want enough to do it neatly and without any stress on the wire. Once you do that you might even find a 50 ft roll may work with plenty to spare.
Just to give you a idea:
I have wired speakers in many small to medium four door vehicles with a 50 foot roll. That of course with the rear speakers running to the amp in the trunk, which saves a lot. The rolls I got from Walmart for about $14 in the auto section.
You just take your time and everything will work out fine. Planning it all out is one of the most important phases and so far you are doing a heck of a job!
Later,
Ash
iXvXi on 11/18/2007 17:13:59
Thanks,
And I never even realize how much shipping was, To bad Crutchfield doesn't have everything because shipping is free...
But the shipping cost was $84.48 so the total is now $606.41
Ash on 11/18/2007 19:46:53
Don't forget that Sonicelectronix has a ebay store too. Sometimes you can find the same item there with a reduced price.
Found the Titan amp there about 15 bucks less w/ shipping. Also seen a suitable sub box there for about 10 bucks less also w/ shipping. Depending on what is offered you can get a small additional shipping discount for multiple items. Doesn't sound like much but already with my zipcode that was a savings of about 28 dollars for the two items.
So it does pay to check....
swez on 11/19/2007 05:37:05
Consider using a ball of string to get wire measurements. Just lay out your string in the path you intend to use for the wiring and add aboy 10% more for a safety factor. That should give you a pretty good feel for wire length calculations.
Swez
PS In your budget, may I suggest you set aside a "gratuity" amount for the guy who is taking a lot of time to help you pull all this together? His expert help is saving you money, time and getting the best possible deals... set aside a stipen for his Christmas stocking too. Ash may not ask for it, but it is well deserved and very appropriate for such high level helps. (It's good form to "tip" service providers that go the extra 5 miles for our benefit) ;-)
iXvXi on 11/19/2007 09:20:17
Your not the only one that has been thinking about that..
I'm Donating whats left of my pay-pal account... It may only be 15$ but its something..At least this will show some of my gratitude for helping me.
If this didn't take up so much money to do I'd donate more because without everyone's help I'd most likely buy the wrong thing..
Ohh and the ball of string was a great idea, I was most likely going to use a tape measure.. (A.K.A Hell in a Case)
iXvXi on 11/19/2007 18:03:31
Lets see If I measured right..
I went from the front speaker to the trunk where the amp will set..And that measured out to approx 14 feet with extra in case I mess up
for some reason I'm a little confused.. Wouldn't I need to run from the HU down to the trunk?..Or maybe I'm just out of it today..
Now back to the capacitor, Will I need one now sense I broke 1000 watts or am I still under?
I'm trying to talk to my dad about this stuff but he has low patience and he thinks I'm getting way over my head haha..
Ash on 11/19/2007 19:06:59
That sounds about right for a small 2 door.
Wiring to the HU is a not a bad option especially when you use the aftermarket harnesses (speakers and HU). That will help simplify wiring a bit. Will you see a major difference between the two? I doubt it at that wattage level. I have done to help keep the vehicle in a returnable to stock state for reselling. You can use that, but make sure you re-measure from that point and include the necessary harnesses in the list.
Stay away from the caps! They don't necessary work if you really need a boost in power. They are just a "looks good" product that can actually detract from the batt and alt. The money on those should really go into alt and batt upgrades if needed. The Kenwood only has a 40 amp fuse and shouldn't really present a problem.
You gotta realize something with watts. Even though a amp is capable of said power, that doesn't mean that it is going to (or needs to) do the maximum continuous constantly. It will go up and down along with the music (mostly on bass peaks and some strong low notes).
Plus since, the highs amp will not be pushed to the max (bridged and/or playing bass), it isn't going to draw a whole lot of current to dim lights and such either. You may only see that on bass hits from the subs sitting at idle. There really isn't a set number of watts (continuous or rms) that says you need more juice to the amp. That all depends on your battery's and alternator's output minus what the car's needed electricals call for plus the systems current draw at a given output.
There is a almost free upgrade (Big 3) that you can do, but there's no reason to worry about that right now. We'll cross that bridge if need be.... For right now I believe your safe.
As for your Dad, the worst thing you can do is pester someone who doesn't understand nor have the patience to understand, because they might mostly think that it is unecessary. Sad part is they are probably right, but that doesn't change what you like.
As long as your mom and pops are cool with helping you fund your project, then the most you should concern them with is being responsible, trying to do it right, and saving them some money at the same time. That should make them proud that you took the initiative for those reasons alone.
A good way to do that would be to go to a local shop or retail store and get a estimate for the same thing or quite similar. Then you could show them the difference in cost in the end when the lower budget project still sounds good or even better.
swez on 11/20/2007 03:47:24
Good points and look at all the new knowledge you will gain in the process. This can help a young guy to learn to think more critically and look at the options before they dive into any major plan in life later.
Funny thing about this site, we are based on Car Audio but when push comes to shove, it's really more about learning to ask for help, using team knowledge bases and then fit our needs/desires into a workable plan and budget. (Life is full of those kinds of choices and we all need help at one time or another)
As with anything in life, we all have blind spots and knowledge gaps. But when we step outside the box and ask a lot of questions, get some seasoned inputs and think things through well, the end result is often far better than one person could stuble through in a year on their own dime.
That's what I really appreciate on this forum... we cover many issues and "fresh eyes" with a few years of experience can save a lot of hit/miss mistakes. It's all right here... just think, ask and experiment within reasonable guidelines and the rewards will be many.
Swez
PS Man was not made to be an island all onto themselves. We all need wisdom and guidance from time to time and there's plenty here to go around. Use it and cut the learning curve in half. (If not more)
iXvXi on 11/20/2007 09:24:35
Its doesn't matter which one because I'm most likely not going to sell it..If anything its going to my Dad
So basically which ever way is easier is the way I'll go and I was over looking the fact that you get less power in idle
Also, I been looking at this layout to get some idea of how to wire it..
http://www.crutchfield.com/learningcenter/car/amplifiers_wiring.html
Will the wiring come with a power block or will I need to buy it separate?? Or do I even need one sense I'm not using a capacitor??
Besides that everything pretty much looks straight forward
ohh and thanks for the advice
Ash on 11/20/2007 15:29:31
That's a pretty good diagram of what you will be doing except for a few minor variations.
The power & ground blocks which I have included in your list is necessary for neatly distributing power and ground to both amps. Though you don't need a cap in the loop, you still will want the power block. They will give a cosmetically clean way to go from the 4 gauge main wire to separate 8 gauge to each amp.
They are separate but only run about $6. There is a another on the site that is only 4 bucks, just different color. Hey, every penny counts in the end...
Ash on 11/23/2007 23:30:34
So how are you coming along with your plans? Sticking to your guns with this so far? Hope so...
Keep us updated.
Ash
iXvXi on 11/24/2007 17:59:13
Yeah I'm not giving up yet
I got a little more accurate measurement for the RCA cables..
I got 9 1/4 to the speaker and 12' to the Head Unit
( Without Extra for Uh-Oh )
I figured the remote cable would be about the same sense they are both going to the same place
So basically all I need is wiring then I'm ready to purchase...
( Any help with that sense you said I needed to measure for a complete list? )
Will I need a rubber grommet for the power wire sense I'm going through the firewall?
Final List
( Without Wiring )
1000W Sub amp
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_8570_Kenwood+KAC-8103D.html
Sub Woofer Box
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_7606_Sonic+Sub+Box-+2H12-2.0.html
Subs -- Need 2
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_2206_Rockford+Fosgate+Punch+P212S4.html#
Front Speaker
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=51400&i=1086422CF&tp=100
Rear Speaker
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_5177_Infinity+Reference+9612i.html
4 Channel amp
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_6553_Hifonics+Titan+TXi+4406.html
$543.94
$606.41 with Shipping
This is what we put together but is there any reason why these wont work because I'm about to go through with all of this and I don't wanna hear that they don't work when everything is all bought
Ash on 11/24/2007 20:11:49
Looks good so far... The only issue I see is the rear speakers (6x9) may have some kind of fitment issue according to Crutchfield. Enter in your auto and you see. Yet they don't tell you why....
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?i=1089612I&tp=91&tab=features_and_specs
Not sure exactly why, but obviously it is not a "drop in" item. Can you take a look to see how the speaker in the rear is mounted? Is it from underneath the rear deck (bottom mount) or sitting on top of the rear deck (top or flush mount)?
Sometimes, the tweeter on a 2-way speaker may sit up too high and interfere with the factory panels. This could be the case. Also the bracket that GM normally uses to hold the speaker up against the rear deck may not be of use with that speaker. Hard to tell. That's where you will have to get in there to see what is the deal.
Other than that, another speaker may have to be used.
iXvXi on 11/25/2007 04:24:39
Good catch...
I'll just go with a new speaker then...
Its getting late so I'll find one tom.
Ash on 11/25/2007 09:28:22
I definitely don't know everything, so before you make any moves it would be best to consult some of the others on this. There are several of us here that are very experienced in that matter.
Maybe UK, Swez, etc will have a solution to it so you can move forward in your plans.
Waddya fellas?
iXvXi on 11/25/2007 13:00:12
I sent this list to another forum and they beat it down...
A couple things they said was
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
theres a lotta threads on a full system upgrade....look at them cuz what you got is just......wrong.
and who has ever seen a power curve like this?
# 220 watts RMS x 2 channels at 4 ohms
# 110 watts RMS x 2 channels at 2 ohms
thats whats on the site for the hifonics amp.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
out of that list i personally would not touch a single thing.
Hank
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's okay because I'm pretty sure that they have no clue what they are talking about..
Truth is, Clubknowledge is da bomb..
From what Hank said, makes me like this forum to the point where that forum doesn't compare..
ohh and Hank is there specialist
swez on 11/25/2007 13:38:58
Hank is better off there and not here.... hehe LOL
We'd have a lot of re-training to do with this fella and I have little patience for foolish people and their stubborn ignorance. If a man is teachable, he is always welcome here. However, when we run across folks who are not teachable, argue at the drop of a hat and cannot admit erronous thinking.... well, it's best to just ignore them and move along.
The specs on that HiFonics amp do not look right to me at all. OK, I looked and it's a 4 channel amp. I can see it reading more like this:
55 watts x 4 @ 4 ohms, all channels run separately
110 Watts x 2 @ 4 ohms/ch Stereo (2 channels bridged x 2)
220 Watts x 2 @ 2 ohms Stereo (2 channels bridged and 2 ohms may not work well or power drop at low ohmic loads) I dunno about this one. Most Class A/B amps don't handle loads under 4 ohms well when bridged. If they have a high current feature, (HC power supply) I can see this being possible. But conventional A/B amps do not do well with 2 ohm loads when bridged.
As for the rear speakers, one has to look at the mounting clearances carefully before diving in. Some of the really strong 6x9 speakers out there are very deep and OEM mounting hardware will not work. Here, we have a few choices:
1. Buy what fits as a drop in replacement
2. Buy what needs only minor modifications to make them fit
3. Scale back on the power, size and features of a give speaker so that it does fit w/o major hardware mods.
The last one makes a lot of sense as rear speakers don't need a lot of power to fill in the back stage. In most sedans, we can expect about +6dB more SPL then what is common from the front stage speakers. This is due to location of the rear speakers and how they often bounce off the rear window.
Most guys will use strong Comps up front and lower power Coaxials in back to get a nice F/R stage balance. It's not uncommon to use 100 watts per speaker up front and need about half that much in the rear to blend the F/R stages well. Yes, it does take some careful tuning and tweaking, but the results will be well above average in the end.
Swez
Ash on 11/25/2007 16:23:46
To show what Hank don't know is that you take it all with a "grain o' salt". Of course sometimes people make errors in advertising, but what Hank forgot to look at is lower down was the real specs.
Also if you will look at the the pics and scan the amp you will find a decent fuse rating that will confirm it's real output. Pay Hank no attention. Rest assured I always look up the product manual if possible at the manufacturer's website for further confirmation:
http://www.maxxsonics.com/hifonics/pdfs/specs_TitanBrutusZeusAmps.pdf
Swez has a good point here and surely nothing is set in stone when making plans. If you can't find a suitable rear in Infinity, there are other options that you have. With the use of these up front you will be able to use a better performing component set:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-9Nj93EeB0dz/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?I=120823300
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/L-6C/detail.asp
Powerbass is a good brand and also has a vast array of speakers to choose from that should fit in the rear deck. Those particular ones will pull good performance out of that amp with a 3 ohm load. That will be a better jump on the Infinity. Then you could go with a pair of these in the rear attached to another 6x9 adapter bracket:
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/L-522/detail.asp
iXvXi on 11/26/2007 09:49:09
I think I might do the bracket method..
Couple of questions..
For the front bracket; do you need to do some cutting in order to make them fit??? If so How much??
also I'm not to familiar with component speaker kits...It looks like the tweeter is separate so will I have to drill to Install them?
And will I need to change up some wiring sense I'm no longer using the infinity's??
Ash on 11/26/2007 15:28:01
They should mate right up as they are made for that specific car. You may have to trim the inside of the bracket to match the mounting diameter, but that fairly easy with a dremel or some sort of cutting tool.
Component sets have a separate woofer and tweeter which is optimized by a passive crossover. By having them separate, this opens up doors to custom installation. You can put the tweeter where it sounds best while the larger woofer will pump out more midbass and better midrange. The tweeter can be surface mounted for ease, or flush mounted (face even with door panel) for a bit better sound. You may or may not have to drill a tiny hole for wiring. Depends on where you want it. A good surface mount place is on the top far corners of the dash facing towards the center of the windshield or dome light.
The only thing you will need to do with the wiring is add a few more feet depending on where you mount the tweeter. It may come with enough wire to do what you want, but to make sure order a couple more feet per side. It's always a help to have extra speaker wire on hand in case you move something.
Those aren't a bad deal at all, will sound better and may cost the same or less.
jamesp on 11/26/2007 18:03:41
Sonic did kind of mess up the description of that amp but got it right down lower in the specs.
One bad thing though...they are OUT of STOCK at sonicelectronics.
You can click on the text and they will email you when product comed in...if you want to wait.....
IxvXi..one thing about this forum, it is a relativley small community and you will not be steered in the wrong direction....for example, If some relative newbie, like me..gave you some bum advice here by accident, it would soon be pointed out one of the experienced members and they would even be polite about doing it.
When I was searching the net for car audio info last year, what amazed me was that when I posted questions almost immediatly members would start arguing and bad mouthing the other members recommendations. Some places were basicaly zoos. The guys that are walking you thru the process here are genuinely interested in seeing you get a decent setup at a reasonable price.
You are very fortunate to have a couple of guys with the audio knowlege that they have walking you thru the process.......Even though Swez is real old
Ash on 11/26/2007 20:00:53
Being out of stock right now probably won't hurt as we are just in the planning stages, right? Plus there are a few other sources to get if from with similar prices if need be.
When I first stumbled upon CK (about 7 or so odd years ago under another name) I was the same way. Sometimes when you don't know, you always try to find the truth in what is being given to you and that's okay. Your'e supposed to. Doing the same, I've ran across several ridiculous sites where some of the people knew, but didn't know how to convey. Others were rather brand struck and unless it was brand "X", it was a peice of crap, etc, etc.
I couldn't except that as I have been playing with car audio since 1991 or so, tried numerous brands & setups, and found that beyond brands was the realm of install igenuity. If half of those guys (maybe more) took the time to really dive into what they were doing instead of just living through someone elses words & works, they would have a better understanding. Judging a product because of a misprint is ignorant.
Sometimes "hidden jewels" exist because we refuse to look, turn a blind eye in misbelief, or turn our noses up to them. The kind of people on those forums down certain ideas because they lack the creativity, knowledge, or drive to follow a different path. They rather idolize behind the masses, or think that more money paid will guarantee a better outcome. Don't get me wrong, there is some crappy stuff out there, but learning to take something mediocre to it's fullest potential is more a fulfilling challenge rather than following popularity. Afterall, it is the quality of install that will make the final difference, not the brand.
iXvXi on 11/27/2007 09:40:31
Yeah I seen that.. I'm trying to get this planned as fast as I can without making any mistakes because everyone is Christmas shopping and a lot of the stuff I'm buying is going on back order..
Also I was told
I would ditch the rear 6x9 speaker as they will just distort badly with the sub pounding away on them. At the very least, you must seal them off from the trunk area to make decent use of them
Would This happen??
I would think just the front 2 would not be loud enough
Ash on 11/27/2007 18:14:10
The subs will have a slight affect on the rears as they will play into the same space (trunk). However, distortion won't be a problem as they will be hi passed into a range (80-120hz) where the subs will not be playing.
Having a set of rears isn't all that necessary. The fronts will provide a good solid stage by themselves with the rears only as surrounds. Much like in a home theater. In this case the rears will add a little volume, but mostly some ambience throughout the vehicle. You will be able to turn them up as you like, but it is most preferred to have the sound coming at you like if you were at a concert. Give that some thought... When at a concert the stage is in front of you along with the live sound. This is what we try to recreate in the auto environment to keep the music sounding accurate as possible.
I wouldn't worry about the 6x9's much unless you are pushing some major air in the trunk. If it did become a problem there are simple solutions to that. The main focus you should have right now is getting a solid list so that you will get your gear by xmas. I believe we are very close to narrowing it down to some good items. For the money, it would be hard to beat what you have listed, so don't sweat the little things.
swez on 11/27/2007 19:29:00
The rear speakers "may be subjected" to undue cone movement if the sub(s) in trunk is/are strong. In some vehicles, this is barely an issue. In other vehicles, it is a real problem and we either delete the rear speakers, move then to rear door panels or isolate them from bass waves in the truck.
All of these variables are doable and can be adjusted/adapted for. This is especially an issue in rear window mounted speakers and a strong sub in the trunk. (I've had that problem and so have other guys I have worked with on sedans)
SUV's and hatchbacks are not as severe. The rear speakers are not sharing the same air chamber. (The enclosed trunk) Isolating the rear speaker cones so the subwoofer has little affect is the key issue to grapple with. I my last install, I had to use baffles to block lsubwoofer bass to the rear 6x9's. Once that was overcome, the results were very good. (W/o the baffles, the 6x9's sounded terrible)
Swez
iXvXi on 11/28/2007 09:15:11
Okay sounds good..
I have everything for my list as far as Amps and speakers..
Is there anything else I need In order for everything to work??
I don't have the wiring yet besides that list of links Ash gave me..
(Is the list complete?)
I'm still debating on using the component speakers in the front because of all of the separate parts I need to install..Will they make a huge difference in sound quality or actual performance?
Unless they are easier to install then it looks
Ash on 11/28/2007 15:51:36
The hardest part about comps is figuring out where to mount the tweeter and that's about it (i.e. very simple). As far as wiring there are several ways to do it.
Some people mount the crossover in the doors for simplicity if both tweeter and woofer are in the doors. This can pose a problem if water should get in the door and destroy the crossover.
Others mount them behind the carpet deep in the footwells when the tweeter is dash mounted and the woofer still in the door. This also is useful too when using kickpanels for speaker placement. Less drawbacks with this option except for possible visible bulges in the carpet if not done right.
They also can be put on the kickpanels or just about anywhere not to far from the speakers themselves though some do it anyway. They are very versatile and will provide much better performance in sound quality and staging than most 2 way coaxial speakers.
iXvXi on 11/29/2007 12:49:27
I cant seem to find brackets that will work with the back speakers..
Also, Is that list Ash gave me for wiring complete or should I just buy a kit from soniceltronix or crutchfield??
Ash on 11/29/2007 17:11:18
The brackets are simple 6x9" to 5.25"- 6-5" adapters which can almost be found anywhere car audio is sold. Some minor trimming may have to be done to fit the basket of any particular speaker.
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?showAll=N&g=103200&i=142SA69&tp=919
As far as the list went, I drew out a diagram of how the system would be wired containing the necessary components. All should be there. To double check you can do the same to see if I missed anything. Plus this will give you a feel for what you need to do to hook everything up right.
Remember, that Hifonics amp has a input selector switch that will allow all 4 channels to be run with a single pair (left, right) of rca. This will only allow fading between the front and rear speakers on the amp, not the HU. The other rca will feed the subs to allow sub fading from the HU. This is good when playing different types of music and the sub's volume need to be adjusted.
swez on 11/29/2007 17:35:52
After buying, using and recommending Knukonceptz wiring and hardware, there are few in the price, service and quality range that match up and can be bought from one supplier. (That's my personal experience, but Stinger, Monster and Street Wires are also fine products... just tend to be more expensive.
As far as having the full product list of things needed, refresh the list if you are unsure. Here are the basics:
1. Main fuse and holder at battery
2. #4 Power line from Bat to fuse holder to D-block (fused D-block) are best if your amp(s) do not have external fuses
3. Adequate RCA wires and correct lengths from HU to amp(s)
4. Speaker wire can be generic if you wish (#16 gage from amp to any full range speaker used
5. Firewall grommet (#4 gage)
6. Remote wire from HU to each amp used (#18 generic is OK)
7. Optional: Grounding D-block iF dual amps are used
8. Battery/Ground connectors as needed
9. Ground cables for each amp and connectors to chassis (under 3 feet per amp grounding wire)
That pretty much covers the basic wire and hardware needs for most systems. It all depends on the amp channels needed and a close fit length of RCA's, power and speaker lines.
Comments,
Swez
iXvXi on 11/29/2007 22:35:29
wow, awesome..
that seemed to help a lot
I think I might almost be completely done with my list
Thanks again guys for everything
swez on 11/30/2007 02:04:13
Made a few quick adjustments to the listing, but just to tidy it up a bit.
Also, remember that #4 gage is fine up to about 100 A's current draw for the main power line feeder. (Keep it under 16' and use #4 or 8 gage lines off the D-block to feed your amps) Here, 3-4 feet of wire out of the D-block will have minimal line losses.
Are you getting geeked up yet? hehe
Swez
iXvXi on 12/3/2007 23:27:50
My dead line is almost over so I need a wiring list..
I really don't care how much it costs right now because of the dead line...
I decided to go with everything you suggested..So this is the final list..And I know I said that before but this is what I'm going with unless you find another problem..
1000W Sub amp
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_8570_Kenwood+KAC-8103D.html
Sub Woofer Box
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_7606_Sonic+Sub+Box-+2H12-2.0.html
Subs -- Need 2
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_2206_Rockford+Fosgate+Punch+P212S4.html#
Front Speaker
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/L-6C/detail.asp
Rear Speaker
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/L-522/detail.asp
4 Channel amp
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_6553_Hifonics+Titan+TXi+4406.html
Brackets
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-9Nj93EeB0dz/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?I=120823300
Brackets
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_4965_Scosche+SA69.html
533.89 With Shipping :)
I still don't know whether to just buy a kit or to buy it separate from http://www.knukonceptz.com
This is the last thing I need so I need a complete list with everything...
Once again I thank each and everyone of you that helped me through this process..
Hopefully I don't just stop here, I would like to learn more and maybe enough to help others..
swez on 12/4/2007 03:54:07
Dead lines are fine when one is skilled and has a solid knowledge of any given project. But when we are new and learning, goals with milestones are far better gages to focus on. We cannot rush the learning curve unless other skilled hands are in the project and can help us through the "unkown variables", (snags and gotchas) that come with the unknowns. This process takes time to do it well and obtain better than average results when done.
Time lines are fine as guides, but not when we don't know what we don't know. It's sets the rookie up for a bad experience, lots of frustration and many setbacks when we rush the process with "unrealistic" deadlines.
OK, sub amp, box and subs are a go! But the box will need some internal modifications for optimum results!!!
You will find this box a tad too large, (Internally) and have to add material, (wood blocks) inside to adjust bass clarity and punch. Each chamber is ~1.2cf/sub. Optimal for this sub is more like 0.85 - 0.9 cf sealed/sub. (See what I mean about gotchas?) We'll walk you through those steps once the products come in. (Easy to do, but takes some extra labor on your part to get it right the first time)
Front speakers are a good choice if good fitment is possible. What is the stock factory speaker size in this vehicle now? Depending on your answer, we may need to consider a different size in Powerbass speakers used.
Same issue in rear speakers. If you have 6x9's as stock, the rear speaker choice may need to be changed as well.
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/category/Speakers/manufacturer/Powerbass/prod.asp
4 Channel Amp:
http://www.maxxsonics.com/hifonics/amps_titan.html
From what I see here, one can expect a solid 75-85 watts RMS x 4 @ 3 ohms per channel. (Powerbass speakers are rated at 3 ohms) This amp does not list fuse ratings or power consumption. Some rough calculations indicate 45-50 A's current draw at full power for this amp. This amp is strong and will demand careful attention when setting it up with all other gear mentioned.
The amp maker suggests #4 gage wiring here. But at the wattage range you'll be using, #8 power and ground will be sufficient. (Hum, another gotcha huh?)
As for your wiring needs, Knu offers packages, but you'll need other wiring and hardware not found in their kits. The question here is about the sub amp signal wiring needs. The Titan amp has 4 inputs and 2 pass through preout for a sub amp if you go this route.
The Kenwood amp does not have a remote bass control feature. That means either careful gain control settings are used or we can use the HU Sub out if the HU has a separate menu for the sub channel. (Yet another potential gotcha)
See what I mean about the complexity of designing a system of this nature? There are many ways to configure this system and much will depend on the HU features available.
A little more planning time is in order here, before pulling the trigger and buying what is needed. Don't rush the process with meaningless dead lines or it will cause problems later. Take it slow and steady now and it will pay off later. (Milestones and the end results are more important than having an unrealistic dead line) Get my drift?
What say you?
Swez
Ash on 12/4/2007 03:57:59
Like Swez stated, Knukonceptz is top of the line gear that is very cost effective. Either way, buy your wiring products from them. Just be sure to get everything in the list and all will be fine. If you do separate lists and compare the pricing you will see which will save you more money....
iXvXi on 12/4/2007 09:33:11
Yeah I'm starting to wish I had started this process earlier..
The modifications and labor are fine, the only dead line is the ordering..
Sonicelectronix has free shipping for the holidays so I'm trying to order everything from there as soon as possible because shipping adds up and with this special I save around $150.00..
The car specs of the car is 4x6 in the front and 6x9 in the back...
Unless the car speakers are a different size then stated
Also I'm definitely going through Knukonceptz because all of the positive feed back I been getting..I just didnt know if that was the complete list or not
jamesp on 12/4/2007 11:32:18
If you are on a tight schedule to get the equipment...you may need to choose another sub box because the one in the Sonic Electronic link is OUT OF STOCK dude.
iXvXi on 12/4/2007 15:45:51
Yeah I'm going to call tonight and see how long they are going to be on back order...
Which rears should I use??
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/S-693/detail.asp
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/L-693/detail.asp
The first one has 4 ohm and the second has a 3 ohm load..Which one would be more efficient for the Hifonics amp??
Also for the front component system..They only have 5.25 and 6.5 so should I just keep the 5.25 and use the mounting bracket?
iXvXi on 12/4/2007 23:35:10
Also, the smallest front component speaker system is a 5.25...
So should I go with the regular 4x6???
swez on 12/5/2007 04:51:56
Hum, 4x6 speakers in the front stage can be very confining. However, this is not a bad option if we use them for mids and highs only. The rear stage can fill in the midbass and the additional bass to balance things out.
Another option may be 4x6 plates, coupled with midbass speakers in the doors, kick panels or even a center console. This option greatly improves the front stage performance and range of options. There are many ways to get there from here to explore. (Now is the time to plan, think about options and then pull the trigger)
What vehicle are we talking about here anyway?
Finally, this is a soft economy and price cuts are inevitable if the Christmas sales are soft. Better deals usually come in January if/when a seller realizes he has too much inventory, sales and profits were below par and now it's blow out time... selling at deeper discounts and offering more deals to move heavily loaded inventory are often the norm.
Sure, retailers and e-tailers hope for the best. But if that never happens for one reason or another, they have a major dilemma to recover from. This is when the best deals hit the table. Wait for them and it will pay off nicely later.
Comments?
Swez
jamesp on 12/5/2007 07:35:09
Where I live, inventory tax is paid on everything that is on the floor as of January 1st. This makes it hard for me to justify an over abundance of stock at the peak selling season. My hardware store was ot auch a problem as the Christmas season didnt affect sales so much. My wifeys store is a different story though.In other words, we wantyed the merchandise out the door prior to January 1....
iXvXi on 12/5/2007 09:46:47
1997 Chevrolet Cavalier Z24...
So basically I should Spend a little more time planning the speakers??
I must buy 70% of everything by today..( Moms Demands) So Should I buy everything I'm sure of and wait a little later to get the speakers??
So everything I'm ordering today is..
Both amps, Subs, Sub Box ( Its on Back order so I might have to order later)
And the wiring list ASH gave me
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLM-K4
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLA-5M
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=PB-1448
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=PB-1448G
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLM8PRL
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KOL8BL
Unless Wiring is to early to..
For the Wiring; Will I definitely need everything in this list?? I can always order new stuff that I need, I just don't want to buy something I'm not going to need or use
iXvXi on 12/5/2007 20:35:08
For this option here
Next options would be since both amps has crossovers & preouts, you could feed the 4 channel full range from the HU and then run a short full range rca from the 4 channnel preout to the bass amp. This uses the amp's crossovers soley. Much simpler, but makes tuning harder as you will have to make adjustments in the rear then sit up front to hear the difference. Could take a good while if your by yourself.
Is a 2 channel RCA considered a Full range??
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KLA-5M
Also Is the Remote Turn On Lead included with the amps or do I have to buy it seperate because I been looking and I can't seem to find any
swez on 12/6/2007 05:43:01
For the 4 channel amp mentioned, this cable set is nice, compact and will get HU signals back to the 4 channel amp. Then, use a 2 wire pair from the 4 channel preouts to feed the sub inputs. (Much cheaper this way and easier to install too:
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KARSS4.4M
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KARSS2.1M
The remote turn on lead can be bought at any good hardware store in bulk. (#18 gage, standed copper is a good choice) 20 feet of that is cheap and easy to find.
Swez
iXvXi on 12/6/2007 09:58:17
Nice..So wiring is all done now..
Now back to the speakers, I think I'm going to just use 6x9's in the back so I don't have to deal with the brackets..
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/L-693/detail.asp
Then maybe a component set for the front..I just don't know where I would mount the tweeter and crossover..
How hard is component sets to set up?? It looks like I have some work ahead of me and sense I don't know a whole lot about car audio, I don't wanna get confused with crossovers.
Do you think everything is a go or should I wait a little longer?
ttocs on 12/6/2007 11:37:22
if you break up the install in to pieces it is managable. We can get ya through it.
Ash on 12/6/2007 18:55:59
Getting close to the end of things here I see with the holidays' coming up is putting you under some strain. Slooow down, go back, and take a look at the list that I gave you.....
When your system was mapped out, a diagram was drawn out on a piece of paper to see what was needed. Very minor things would be missing, if that.
As far as the 3 ohm speakers that was listed, the brackets were included to make them work. Even though they were extra parts, it was designed to give you the most output for your money and ease of install. If you change your mind that's okay, but still no matter what system parts you decide to use there will be some degree of manipulation to make it work. Remember, the rears had some sort of install issue using regular 6x9's and the fronts are compatible with different sizes as well. You might as well go bigger up front seeing that you can and it will sound better.
Don't forget as mentioned before, the Titan amp has a selectable 2/4 input that's capable of using only 1 pair of rca to feed the whole amp if necessary leaving the second rca to be fed straight to the sub amp. This option eliminates a the third rca and was chosen because subwoofer fading is used more than rear surround fading. Once you set the rears to blend with the fronts by the amp, there will be no need to adjust them afterwards. It is mostly the subs/highs that will benefit from adjustment depending on how strong or weak the bass is on the music you will play as your'e listening.
The amplifier install kit listed includes remote wire as well. A few extra feet will help depending on where the second amp is mounted. Still does not present a major problem as like said before, that is minor and can be found at any auto parts store and even Wallyworld.
If your dad has some simple woodworking tools (circular saw, jigsaw, and a drill) you could save a few bucks more by building the sub box yourself with his help. This way you can also control the subs output to a "T".
iXvXi on 12/7/2007 09:02:51
Yeah..I missed the holiday speacial for free shipping.. :(
And my dad has basically everything as far as woodwork and even electrical..He built an edition to our house but he mostly only knows house electrical.
But I talked to a local audio shop yesterday and as far as I could see I knew just as much as they did..For everything and installation they came to a total of $1400 so I know im getting my moneys worth.
If I was to build my own..is there a diagram or blueprint I would be able to follow?
swez on 12/8/2007 01:50:11
Yes, most sub makers will give the DIY'er guidlines for the optimal enclosure their sub needs. We can adjust H, W & D parameters to fit the space for install as needed. That's where careful measuring, planning and then build the box comes into the game.
Once we know these parameters, break out the the scaled drawing paper, a calculator and make a draft plan that fits and can be done with the tools on hand. There are several online resources to help as well.
Swez
PS Take your time, be patient and ask for help as needed. There are several skilled fabricators here at CK to guide you through the process.
Victor on 12/8/2007 02:28:28
If we are talking about the Rockford Fosgate P212S4
they would play good in a 1.5 cuft box tuned to 35Hz, for each sub.
iXvXi on 12/9/2007 19:18:58
Today I went to a audio shop and this is what I bought...
Single Sub
http://sonicelectronix.com/item_8754_Rockford+Fosgate+Punch+P2D412.html
Sub Amp
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=120&i=575P3001P&c=3&tp=115
Speaker amp
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=120&i=500MRPF250&c=3&tp=115
Sub Box
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7008542&productCategoryId=abcat0302036&type=product&tab=2&id=1099392684268#productdetail
The total was $581.23 with a 4 year warranty for the Sub..
I still need to get the speakers and wiring..
I know we went through this but the guy there said it was highly recommended that I get a capacitor..Is this true or is he just trying to get a sell??
Also I wanted to know what you thought about it because I went there to check prices and this is what I ended up coming out with..
Also I need a matching set of speakers that will go with the 4 Channel amp
Dave
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