A co-worker of mine came to me with a problem. He has a 2000-01 Tahoe obviously with the stock bose system. The subwoofer included with this system has fell victim to age and environment. Foam surrounds has rotten off rendering the sub useless. He wants to keep the system, but replace the sub or repair keeping the factory location intact. I figure it's not totally impossible if a close enough match can be found.
The sub appears to be an 8" consisting of a pulp paper cone, 20-30 oz magnet, 3- 3/16" top mounting depth. It also has a 5/8" spacing ring mounted to the top. With a 5/8" mdf mounting ring on a new sub that would bring an available depth of about 3- 7/8". Not much I know...
After testing the sub without further tearing it apart I got the t/s specs except for Vas. I didn't feel Vas was that important as it would require disassembling the driver; also the available space in the factory box seemed to be in the .3- 3.5 ft^3 range at the most. That narrows availability down a bit, though the box size is common for most eight inchers.
T/S is as follows:
Fs= 42.39hz
Re= 1.59 ohms
Qes= 0.6077
Qms= 5.762
Qts= .549
Le= 0.3125
Clearly it is a 2 ohm sub as stated. With a mid Qts, rather high Fs, it's nature tends to be somewhat robust in the small enclosure. Assuming this with Vas unknown. Still that would be the object to get apparent bass from a small sub in a fairly large suv.
With the fs/qes ratio (EBP 69.75) and no viewable port in the factory box, it is safe to assume that it is a sealed setup. I wouldn't doubt that the amp has a slight amount of eq-ing like normal amp boosts to extend low end a little or either relying on cabin gain to help out.
There a few subs that are very close in specs and recommended enclosure, yet mounting depth seems to be somewhat of an issue. Anyone had any luck replacing one of these? At best if the sub's coil isn't damaged a surround kit may work. Worst an extensive search for a viable replacement.
Replies (24)
trunkisloud on 10/29/2007 19:12:55
too bad he doesnt have subs...you could just unhook it...my cousin just unhooked his yesterday in his 02 tahoe...same reason...
Ash on 10/29/2007 19:32:14
The closest match without install issues is the E Designs EHQS 8" 2 ohm version. Problem is that it will be in a Qtc of about 1- 1.1 in the stock box giving it a 2 db lift in the 80-90hz region. F3 rolloff will be in the mid to low 50's. Still not sure about the stock location's actual ft^3.
That response would be typical of most budget subs nowadays including some higher brand names. May not be a bad choice, if not the only one.
The thing about bose that they use less than superior drivers in extravagant enclosures. Their amplifiers usually include any type of crossovers and eq's to make up for the driver's inefficiencies. That is what makes them most difficult to work with. Replacing them with oem is even worse as they don't normally offer parts. They usually require you to send the unit back to be repaired.
swez on 10/29/2007 22:49:29
A new surround might be your best answer here. They are a bit delictate to remove the old foam from the pulp cone, but after that's done, a sharp razor knife will help remove the gasket and can be reused in many cases too. (Assuming the cone and coil are in good shape.
The other trick is a good 3-point alignment of the coil in the gap. That means the dust cap has to come off too. (But a steady hand and patience will get that part done... this may not be needed for a new foam surround job though) The question is... can you find the right surround kit for this sub? Some deep digging will probably get a good result. Here's how to do it:
http://simplyspeakers.com/speakerrepairinstructions.htm
Swez
Ash on 10/31/2007 19:39:28
There seems to be a good flood of bose surround replacement kits on the market as if they already know and probably do.
I found several that will work, but the guy insists that he doesn't want to waste the money into repairing it. Can't understand why if he plans on keeping the stock.
I tried numerous sources to find a suitable sub that works and choices are slim. Plus if I can't measure the Vas, then he surely is stuck. I'll see if he won't mind me removing the grille cloth from the front of the woofer so I can test it. I at least would like to know what bose' design intentions were. Just out of curiousity.....
swez on 11/1/2007 19:53:16
Hum, find out what he is willing to pay and if a new surround fits his budget, go that route. (A good OEM fit)
If he wants another 2 ohm sub, either use a replacement Bose Sub or try a 4+4 DVC that fits the parameters as you know them.
If not worth the money.... he's on his own? He is the client, but it's up to you to take or pass on the deal. (Sometimes we have to weight the rewards and outcome VS a client's perceptions and budget)
Swez
Ash on 11/2/2007 18:11:48
Finally let me take the front grille/gasket off.
Sensitivity measured in at 92 1w/1m.
Vas at 3.22 ft^3
Unless I figured it wrong Bose had a very less than optimum enclosure for in the stock box Qtc was around 1- 1.1? F3 was around 91hz? Normally a high Q isn't bad if the rolloff is closer to 60 which demonstrates stronger bass with pop music.
High Qts + high Vas + high spl = large box for smooth output. I wonder what was their agenda, efficiency?
Doesn't suprise me because like said, Bose sometimes uses extensive eq-ing in their car amps to augment the output. There may have been a legitimate reason to do so, but I figured it would be simpler (if not cheaper as well) to use a little better quality component.
To further investigate, a frequency plot of the trucks transfer function would need to be done. Perhaps there were some response anamolies that needed to be dealt with. Who knows.....
Anyway, in this case the E Designs EHQS 8" is a better match for the enclosure with a much lower F3, but probably not off the stock amp. After doing some figuring out if there is only a bass amp and not a full 4,5,6 channel, we may be able to come up with a solution for an bass only upgrade. The rest is on him.
I'm like you though Swez, just refoam the old sub and be done with it, or find someone that has upgraded and has the original for sale.
Case closed!
swez on 11/2/2007 19:03:03
Interesting findings there Ash. As many have said... "Not great highs, not great lows... must be Bose".
The "Q" on this sub is fine for a tin ear. (Average listener) But for those who demand more than run-of-the-mill performance, this OEM woofer is just =barely OK.
It would seem that Bose chooses efficiency over low bass in this vehicle. (D'oh) Yes, some added EQ will help, but an F3 of 90 Hz is about right for OEM systems. (100 & 10KHz boost is typical)
Sad that one pays so much for a Premium OEM Audio system and gets
so little real performance from it. I would think they rely a lot on "cabin gain" to fill in the lows to maybe 60 Hz., but still a very poor value in all.
Swez
PS A good learning experience for sure, but that's about it until your client forks out some $$ to make it worth the effort. (With your level of knowledge on these matters, he's maybe wasting your time?
Ash on 11/2/2007 20:42:39
Point taken well...
Yes, I have used this as a learning experience, yet I still find such info intriguing. People just don't know how inexpensive it can be to get a better than average setup if they will just take the initiative. These so called "highly praised" OEM's are a joke not to mention the aftermarket stuff they hook up. Most of it is just all wrong and overdone.
I have been seriously pondering obtaining a small business license and tax # for car audio consulting/system planning. With a few sources for products to utilize I might have a chance in making a supplemental income. Something very low overhead to start with an advantage over similar small shops.
There is a small but growing number of people in my area that come to me for advice, but getting them to bite is a different story. Maybe if I had the sources to offer them the products recommended and show some kind of credentials it could be made into a reality. It would be a slow crawl for a while, but it could be worth it in the long run.
I have already worked on simple & impressively inexpensive ways that is a vast improvement over stock or even some ghetto rigs. It will be up to the consumer to what distance they will go.
Any advice?
swez on 11/3/2007 04:57:03
I think you may be on to something here Ash. We have seen your progress on this hobby and the investments in good tools to access audio performance and now testing and evaluating various speaker/system perfomance criteria.
The issue is not to found in credentials but rather, results that people value and are willing to pay for such skills and services. In the early stages of learning our "chops", we give a lot away to gain familiarity and experience. That's OK and we all have to do it for a while. But, when trying to set up a side biz, many find that we have to go outside our local markets, (Friends, buddies and family) to make it to the next level. (Income producing services)
It would be good idea to identify what services and skills one can bring to a select type of consumers. Then figure out a way to market them to people that will make your reputation known and valued to a wider group of clients. Their interests and wallets will give the feedback needed to determine if this is worth the efforts.
Victor has done a wonderful job at finding and grooming a new niche in his locale. (India) The main thing in his case, there's a large and unexplored market for his services to grow and expand. In the US, this market has matured and is in decline. That just means that one has to work harder at carving out a niche they can explore and expand into later.
Think it through and find that niche. If it turns out profitable, then expand as needed to widen the net of fish in the net we cast. Just realize that there will be fish in the net that we don't want/need and how to gently cast them back into the pool.
Swez
PS There is often "no honor" given to a prophet in his own home town. To build a reputation, we often have to go outside our local familiars and build a reputation "out there".
"Expert" defined: A man with a briefcase that came from out of town, to do business. (This is so true in many ways)
Ash on 11/3/2007 15:45:45
True that....
I've looked at several options in luring specific consumers. Though the market is in a decline, that is a good indicator that most are not willing to pay normal shop charges. I've noticed more are getting into the DIY aspect to cut costs. If I can help them on a technical level and then even sell them the parts, I "kill two birds with one stone". A long shot I know, but it's perfectly possible.
Part of my niche will be offering viable & affordable products that are outside of what the expensive local shops offer. With test equipment that these shops don't use, I will be able to "spot" good gear and prove their worth with the use of live car demos.
Plus the use of a website (may be ebay for starters) for additional outside areas, easy product comparison, and extended hour shopping. A simple email account for one on one Q & A as a form of customer service. That plus personal appointments for quick consultation.
If possible, I will offer full package discounts for those looking for a full blown system. From dash kits, speakers, amps, wires, and enclosures.
Locally, transfer function measuring will be offered and speaker spec confirmation as well. This way I can try to eliminate any weak points that a newb might else encounter that will deter future clients.
Just a rough draft, but I have written down personal weaknesses and strengths that can be keyed in on.
These are some of the things that local shops don't care to do that I consider a must.
swez on 11/4/2007 03:58:09
There ya go and that plan is doable too. I have tried this approach at some levels too and it can work out well in time. Have tried combinations of one-on-one consulting, design, fabrication and installs as needed. It's harder to find good customers that see the value and are willing to pay a decent fee for the efforts. (Be clear on your fee structures up front)
Getting quality gear is not a problem as there are plenty of choices out there and not paying retail helps build a modest profit margin too. Fabrication of enclosures is kinda nice if we have the time, tools and can do them efficiently and with quality materials and good workmanship. Here, one can offer a custom fit and/or stealth for well below what a typical shop would charge and we have one thing to offer that most shops won't.... "I care enough to do this work right and well each time out".
The hardest part is doing quality installs on "any vehicle" that comes into our hands. Some are easy and very straight forward. Other vehicles are just a series of nightmares and lots of tedious labor to get at the parts we intend to swap out. This aspect seems to be the biggest challenge to learn and overcome them w/ experience, skill and considerable determination.
Most Imports and Ford trucks are very easy to work on. However, some of the older GM vehicles are a real PITA to work on and require a lot time and patience, just to swap a HU or install new door speakers. Your Blazer is probably not all that easy and my old Buick was a night mare, just to remove dash parts and door panels.
We know that now, but our customers won't unless they have tried it and gave up. Some of the newer GM cars can be pretty involved too. (On Star, amped Bose systems and the like are expensive as they need refit kits to keep those features working, yet want better than OEM performance on a tight budget)
Until one has a few of these under their belt and knows the complete picture, one can really eat time, profit and add a lot of angst to the game too. (Avoid them unless there is adequate profit to do so) Unfortunately, we don't always know that part up front.
Finally, consider "hidden liabilities" that may crop up later. The customer has an alarm or remote starter and we have to learn to work with what's already there. If we don't understand them and how to work around or with them, it can come back to bite the installer later.
Swez
PS It's a mixed bag to be sure Ash. Selling quality gear can be profitable if we have a solid supplier chain, excellent discounts and still make a decent profit margin. (Brokers and sales agents on E-bay)
FYI: Just bought a high quality, like new fly rod, reel, case and line from an e-bay seller. She paid almost $200.00 for this rig for her son who did not want it. I sniped it for $62.00 + S/H and Ins. The seller took a real bath on this one, but it was just the right deal for my interests. It came on Friday and after looking things over, dang... what a bargin this was. It was never used, sat around for a year and she sold it for 30% of what she paid for it. I can't wait to try it out.
The seller took a big hit, but the buyer, (me) made a killing. I feel bad for the seller, but have waited 18 months for a deal like this to show up and pounce on. (And pounce I did) CLAP In short, good things come to those who are patient, wait for the right deal and can buy when lean times present an excellent buying opportunity. HAPPY as a clam, the "Swezmeister" is on this bargin. (It feels like winning a modest Lotto, but did not waste a nickel in the process) One bet/one win. HAPPY
Victor on 11/4/2007 15:32:23
Forget all the knowledge I have , all the experience I have... I am earning cause I do this...
"Expert" defined: A man with a briefcase that came from out of town, to do business....
Sometimes , you need to leave behind the car audio enthusiast in you....
when you talk to a client about cheaper components, a client starts his thought process from $ 0..... Ends up choosing the entire system for $500... and then sits and stares at you expecting you to show your magic.... you do all the hard work, put in all your efforts, crack your head to get it sound just right...
when you talk cheap , he selects cheap, and pays you cheap... a guy who can choose an entire system in $500 ... damn... what can he pay you...
Instead talk to a consumer setting a benchmark... mention big names, show him dreams of amazing things that can be done with his system, raise his expectations ( not from you but from his music system )... do not forget to mention at each step the price of all these gizmos...
lets see what happens in this case...
he does have one thing in mind when he comes to you, "I want the best deal possible"...
when you talk big, his idea of "BEST" changes.... he gets to know whats really a """"Great""""" audio system.... then he is put forward a fact that hey... the more honey u put in the sweeter it gets....
ofcourse he wont go mad and spends thousands on his system. but when set with a benchmark of say $5000 making him the best system, he would know what to expect of his "cheaper system"..
number 2 - you would have by now raised his expectations from his own system, meaning he may be willing to pay in a bit more tooo.. for services as well as products.
so 2 things can happen, either ends up giving you better money and better products to make your work really easy and attractive.
or he saves you the pain of doing a whole lotta extra work to make a cheap system sound great, as he knows what to expect from his "cheap" system.
you want to earn money in this field... stop being a car audio enthusiast... just be an expensive expert
If you cant do it, hire someone to do it.. dont worry... IDEA
ure simply an expert who doesnt usually install , you're the one who designs, guides and supervises one or 2 or a team of skilled people who under your expert guidance do the install for you... they are the hands you are the brain..
and charge high fees so that you can have a margin of giving him a decent bargain...or so called .. the "Best Deal"...dont forget to make him realise at the end of this that its because of your expert consultancy services he could get himself the best system at the best rate... GRIN
Victor...
Business demands you to be a shrewd man with ethics...
1 - Give him the right advice.
(The right advice usually is spend more money get a better system. GRIN)
2 - Do not cheat your client.
( Give him the best products and the best rates, you are the best judge for "best" , not your client.)
3 - Do not cheat yourself.
( Put in your best efforts for the entire project. sell products at competitive price, meaning at market rates. the moment you give him rates much below whats in the market, you are cheating your wallet )
Its always better to one have quality client with quality economics of a quality project. rather than 5 dumb ass clients....
Ash on 11/4/2007 18:13:41
That makes sense Vic, but what if your first starting out and want people to bite? If I come off too harsh at first won't that turn people off? After all the internet is something fierce to compete with besides other local venues.
Another aspect is the market where your'e at and in the states is different, is it not? Here it is in a decline where OEM is pretty much taking over (newer premium cars mostly) with integration. So that leaves basic and/or older vehicles. The drivers of these will be consumers barely past their teens (mostly young adult males still in the testosterone stages). A few very young females and some of the older generation looking for simple replacements as well.
These consumers I suspect will not spend thousands for they don't have it or won't deem it necessary. At the same time, they may be willing to spend more on refurbishing an older car than go out and buy a new car. Not to mention no OEM will not put in such a system that will achieve high SPL levels.
The industry has already begun to change therefore you must change your "game" as well. Checking the demographics tells me that what they unknowingly want is decent gear that is matched carefully to attain good results without spending tons of money. The majority of that crowd is into SPL more than SQ which we know is easy to attain with less than premium products.
The key here is for the installer/dealer to cut costs in over head in order to still make a good profit. That can be tricky true enough, but by being an enthusiast, that will give the advantage to know how to make it possible to less discerning ears.
For example take a look at what the younger ones just on this site have for equipment....
Here is something that I ran across that is interesting to read:
http://www.vdc-corp.com/PurchasedDownloadFile.asp?type=whitepaper&id=1773
Victor on 11/5/2007 02:38:03
Yes I agree the scenario out there are different than in India.
But out here too OEM is beginning to be a huge concern.
those who are satisfied with normal listening levels and average quality, those who are not too keen on music are pretty much happy with the OEM stuff...
and those who are willing to upgrade definitely want something way better than OEM...
But this is common consumer psychology..
If you do them a good sounding system in very limited budget, they don't evaluate you according to the job done, but directly co-relate you with the value of the music system and pay you pennies...
don't come harsh.... simply don't undervalue your services and expertise....
and the higher you quote the client tends to think you're something way way special then the others out there and also that you get a better margin of giving him a good bargain.
About the industry changing, well it has been continuously transforming since car audio came into being.
industry includes, technology, manufacturers, marketing and distribution chain, consumer, and the foremost money involved.
if this is a side hobby you may be fine doing a couple of odd jobs here and there to get some extra $$$, but if you are thinking of seriously pursuing this as a career then you need to think bigger and different than the rest of the lot out there.
every car audio dealer out there talks of doing you a so called "Great system" and give you the so called "Best Deal".
so how different are you...??
Ash on 11/5/2007 04:41:49
That's a good question. Perhaps I might need to re-evaluate the present plan. Maybe spend a little "secret shopping" time in a few shops to see how much they actually know.
Still though, not sure if I would want to be in the same game as them. There would have to be something majorly different that sets me apart.
swez on 11/5/2007 06:00:48
After some thought on this whole matter, Victor has a very good working model to launch a very profitable buisness in his demographic area. (High growth potential) He is selling "value and sizzle" and it does work well in an expanding market.
However, we have a very different scenario in the US demographic chain. Our market has matured and is now in decline. Most OEM's have upgraded to branded names that some people are most willing to pay a bit more for, on the front end of buying a vehicle. They can swallow an "inferior" $1,500.00 upgrade when the payments are integrated into the purchase price of a given car and paid off in 60 months.
Getting a consumer to pony up $1,500.00 out of pocket and coupled with a $300.00/mo car note is another matter. This is especially true in the younger generation we have now. (18-25 year old males) They are often less educated, (Than Asian, Indian and European counterparts) have less earning potential and tend to want "instant gratification" with cheap goods rather than taking the long-term view of investing more money and have a great system that will give them 5-8 years of above average performance and enjoyment later.
FYI: I see this well in the new business model of the company I work for now. Here, we buy low cost, medium value products from China and other low price/quality sources, mark up the price, deliver a display to the customer's place of employment and then sell/deliver the goods to them a week after they see the products on display.
The model works well enough for the consumer as they don't have to go to a store, waste time and gas shopping and the products are delivered right to their work place. They do nothing hard. It all comes right to them and all they need do is fill out an order form and include payment. We don't charge S/H or sales tax either. (That is part of the end price)
The company works on volume and modest profit margins here. The labor is cheap, the products are cheap and the service is well above average. The profit margin to a typical owner/agent is about 20% over cost. The more products we put out in the field, the higher the sales volume to the company and their agents. However, business expenses are growing as the price of fuel climbs and the cost of keeping our delivery trucks on the road is not that cheap either.
The point in mentioning this is that people want cheap gifts and goods and don't have to do very much to get them. As the US economy errodes, well paying tech jobs are being out sourced to low labor cost service providers. American's with these skills are losing their well-paying jobs in droves and having to settle for service sector jobs that pay a whole lot less then we once enjoyed. (And we have to work longer and harder as well)
Manufacturing jobs are also falling away or pay a lot less then they did even 5 years ago. A few years back, a typical factory worker could earn $15 - 25.00/hr, have very good benefits and a decent lifestyle too. Today, they are lucky to make $12.00/hr, little or no benefits and the cost of living is gradually erroding a one good lifestyle to one of just over broke at the end of a month.
A large chunk of manufacturing jobs have gone off shore to cheap labor countries like China, Mexico, Asia and India. This displaces the US worker to the rate of 350,000 jobs lost a month. This has been going on since the late 90's and the trend is getting worse each year.
There's a lot more to this then one can cover in a few paragraphs. In short, American's are losing well-paying jobs and expensive benefit packages at a rate that will put a huge number of people in the poor house. In the Midwest, we once had a booming economy and employment was about 96%.
Wages and benefits were very good at all socio-economic levels in the 80's and 90's. Today, there is a huge gap in jobs that pay well VS just over broke. Folks are losing their benefits, work for lower wages and even if well educated, they are hired into new positions at 50% of what that skill commanded only a few years ago. Company profits are the main goal now. (Giving the investors and stock holders a nice ROI) If they don't get it in one area, they move investment dollars to more profitable ones.
This is what we are facing now and is only going to get worse later. American's used to be hard working, well paid and spent a lot of money that was floated on credit. (Living well above our means) Well, that trend will continue for a while longer, but sooner or later, the bottom will fall out.
The value of the US dollar is declining rapidly since NAFTA was inacted. We were once top dogs in many areas, but now... the piper has come for the payments. Greed, graft, gluttony and slimey business deals have put many middle income American's in a very tough situation. The middle class is shrinking rapidly. The rich are getting more of the pie and the poor are growing in numbers each quarter.
That's why small business have grown in the past 10 years. Many have lost or quit Corporate jobs and scaled back spending until their small business' grow enough to give them adequate buying power again. The problem is, most small businesses are not well funded and many go under in 3-5 years. It takes a lot of business savvy to start a small company.
Too many try, but don't have the skills and capital to go the distance. These are the ones that go belly up. Some will grow to a point that they sell out to larger entities, take their profits and retire if they were smart, lucky and able to live off the sale of said biz. Unfortunately, this is not reality for most small business owners/operators. They eek out a living, work long hours and barely meet the bills at the end of each month.
I don't mean to rant here, but if one looks at the big picture and then digs for the details, it is easy to see that if American's don't wake up, join forces and hold our leader's feet to the fire, we are doomed to slow demise and live like many 3rd world countries do now.
Pay attention guys... this monster is at the door and we are their intended lunch!
Swez
Ash on 11/5/2007 20:45:03
Whoa! Now that's deep. True, but deep....
I see both points and understand your concerns, but Swez has a direct one. One that I am willing to bet on.
Running a shop from a low overhead point of view will actually be more profitable as the only thing I will be doing is middlemanning. Installs will be minimum for the cost of install bays and additional labor drives overhead up very much. Inventory will kept to a minimum,if at all, which will drive away the "gotta have it now" crowd that causes problems.
Of course I will offer much guidance into what products to buy and how to them get up and running right. This way the consumer feels they are saving money by doing the majority of the work with only me supervising. There will be only a select few that might want me to do the work and they will pay good for those services. Others will attempt to do it themselves like it always has been, but will have the help of a knowledgable customer service.
You got to understand that these are young folks that have limited funds but need advanced help to stretch the dollars into what they need. An unmaximized expensive setup will sound worse than a maximized semi inexpensive setup. Of course everything will be explained up front so there are no surprises. I doubt it will change how much these kids are willing to spend, but at least they will know the details. Instead, now some guy takes their money and tells them what they want to hear because he really doesn't know much himself.
This is what I see everyday and if I can make a slight difference while putting a few extra ducks in my pocket, then why not? Everybody's happy...
Think in the terms of Avon, no one is committed unless they really want it.
swez on 11/6/2007 05:19:59
Yep, I get the concept well and have tried it on a small scale for a few years now. It can pan out if one can attract the right kind of consumers too. (That's the hard part... sorting out the wheat from the chaff)
This is a very dicey business proposition and in my own experience, the learning curve is choppy at best. Have done custom installs, enclosures and tech service type work for others and for the most part, the customer always walked away a winner and very happy w/ the results. (I went the extra miles w/ them to insure that)
On the other hand, most of the time I made a modest profit or actually lost a little on these deals. Some of this was due to my own lack of experience on a given job, underbidded my services or gave out a lot more effort than the customer was willing to pay for. (Ouch.... those really sting)
Part of this was the learning curve thingy. The other side of the equation was... "How much is our skill and expertise really worth to others?" The answer lies in the consumer's wallet. We don't always have a clear picture of that part of the scenario. Why? There are many good reasons to look at:
1. Customer does not know what they really want
2. Customer talks like a high roller, but is really a cheat at heart
3. We can over-estimate our value, knowledge or how long it really takes to walk others through a given system
The last item is the real gotcha in this kind of biz. We may know the steps and how to do them well. However, we are using the customer's hands, his "lack" of knowledge and often a finite budget or shifting priorities. We don't have much control over any of these potential snares unless we set a price up front, get a good faith deposit and the customer pays the balance at the end of the project.
Better still, we get our fees up front and outline "EXACTLY" what we are able and willing to offer in terms of services. That's a hard one to do unless we have built a solid reputation, customer is fully committed to the plan and we attract customers that value our skills and experience enough to go the distance and finish the job on schedule. These are doable, but expect to take a few $$ hits in the early stages and learn from them.
Now, "brokering" gear and sundry items are another story. If one can find great products at discounted prices and sell them to others at a modest profit, this can be profitable if we get enough customers and there is a steady flow of them too. (E-bay approach is a good model) However, instead of an auction, we use the "buy it now" approach.
Here, the customer gives us a budget and and we search for the best ways to meet their needs on that budget and make a reasonable profit too. (25% is a good baseline margin, but if we can get 50% or better margins, even better) This is a good deal for all parties in the game as they buy from us, we guide them through the work and earn money on both the sale of gear and the installation helps.
One big snag in this one though... if the customer makes an honest but ignorant error and damages the gear, who foots the repair bill? Or, what if the product we sold them is defective, then what? Now the customer is unhappy, he transfers his problem back to the service provider and now we are on the tread mill again.
See what I mean about having so many variables that are not fully under our control? This is where it gets dicey pal. How far do we need to go to help the client recover from such events? What is our liability and response to such common scenarios? If you have an effective way to manage these glitches, let me know! This is where I have encountered losses and had to work extra hard to get things back on track, satify the customer and keep a clean reputation too. I've had a few of these and they are messy and expensive to clean up. (Often at the expense of our profit line which has now turned into a loss)
OK, am not trying to discourage you here Ash. Am just trying to give some good "heads up" info for you to chew on a while. It's difficult to factor in all the potential variables that come with type of business arrangement.
In the beginning, I did not see all these potential snags. Most times, things go well and without any major glitches and everybody is happy. However, when a big glitch comes, (And they will in time) can we absorb them, work out a good fix and still make some profit? If the answer is yes 80% of the time, it's worth trying.
Comments?
Swez
PS Believe me, being a very honest guy is a given. But we don't know what we don't know until one of these speed bumps hit us in the face and we have to deal with them skillfully and with integrity. I know you will... but some customers are not as honest as we are. Some will make honest mistakes and ask us to help them fix it. Others will make bone-head errors, lie about the problem they created and try to pin the expense back on us.
I've had a few of these over time and have elected to pull back and let the dust settle for now. Unfortuately, a weak economy is working against all of us. What started out as a great opportunity a few years ago, has morphed into a very tight margin business model. It's getting harder to find/attract customers with healthy budgets, know what they are doing and get great results w/ minimal glitches. This takes a lot of high level communications between us and the customer. We can do our part flawlessly and still wind up on the short end of the deal. (Be wise and THINK this all through before pulling the trigger) SMILE
Ash on 11/6/2007 18:57:48
That's the part I am somewhat worried about. That will take a greater part of judgement of me to determine what risks to take.
I know at times there will be the situation when I will have to admit to myself and the consumer that what they ask is beyond my skills. If I see that I can help them, then I should. If not, then I must have no problem sending them to the better man. Hopefully I will still gain the respect for being honest instead of seeing the green opportunity only to end with detrimental results.
On the other hand, there will be times too that I will have to be willing to take some carefully calculated risks. I do heavily stress "carefully calculated". I cannot ever be able to step up to the plate, take the easy way out, and expect to gain. A sacrifice isn't a bad thing if it helps build some sort of character & confidence. Pride is a horse of a different color, foolish!
Look at the chances, sacrifices, and focuses I have made so far. Though somewhat meniscule, I must have at least a little bit of faith to know that all will be alright the majority of the time.
I don't want to be a fool, just jumping out there with nothing to stand on nor fall back to. That's why I consult you guys on almost everything I do. Your views are very important in my quests and believe me; I do regard them with the utmost concern.
This is just something that has been on my mind a long time and it feels like one of those things that if I don't try, then I am already a failure. It could be that I have missed the train already. There were several opportunities missed as well as plenty of other opinions in that I should already have made that step. I doubted myself and let fear take over. I felt my skills were inferior compared to these local shops, but I know that it's not true. I realized that I went in another direction.
All that is left is for me to build up very slowly until. Until may never happen and that is why I won't go out on a limb. I still will keep a day job as I have for the last 13 years. All else will be part time and that is all I can stand to give at the moment. Limited hours will mean limited funds, but I have a lot of love for the hobby and making big bucks is not the main focus. No I won't be free, but I'm not pimpin rides either.
Does that makes sense?
swez on 11/6/2007 19:18:40
Yes, yopu make sense!
But we don't always know "the variables" we will faced initially or 'down the road". Agreed... start slow, see what develops and use this as a learning opportunity too.
Personally, this was not a get rich quick idea on my part either! (Not even close) I wanted to help others and get a decent return too. It did not turn out that way in all situations, but I learned a few things along the way. Just trying to to give a few pointers is all...
Our personal integrity is the bottom line. However, we have so little control over what other hands might do. It is a deleicate balance at best. Tread lightly and move ever-so slowly as you go. It might work out fine. But prepare for the worst.
Swez
Ash on 11/6/2007 20:33:20
Agreed! You and I are almost always on the same page....
Like you, I want to help others with some fair rewards as well. Nothing worse than seeing people getting ripped off when they could had much better for less. Maybe I live in a fantasy world, but I remember when it didn't take much to sound good. Now the equipment is a little better at the same price and all you see is people being misled.
For the most part, they listen to what I say and then there's the hard heads that come stumbling back after being warned. The latter half can't be changed, it's just in them to be like that. The first half need more than talk, they want to see proof before diving in. If I want them to believe, then I need to give proof.
Don't worry though, I already know how far not to go. That has been pre-determined and it's not far at all. I know I won't be able to reach everyone, but for those I do, I will try my best to reward them. That is with their money's worth!
My problem has always been getting started. If I could get the ball rolling, then maybe it won't seem so scary.
swez on 11/7/2007 05:08:58
Yes, we track very much on the same path and are trying to make an imperfect world a better place then when we found it. That's the trouble with "visionary" types... we see a better world available, but how to get a hold on it and shake things out of the status quo?
Agreed, there's a constant formula that I am reminded up from a former boss....
1. 33% of the people we meet will always value and resonate well with our ideas and "get on the bus"
2. 33% will be neutral and can be swayed by a good presentation of the facts, benefits and a little passionate appeal
3. 33% will be stubborn, obstinant and we'll struggle to get along, no matter what the situation or issue is
Think about that a bit... it is almost a truism and we have a 66% chance of getting things done with little or no resistance. The rest of the pie is an upward climb w/ few converts, but they don't come easy. This group is always "kicking and screaming against the goads" the whole way.
I see the same thing at work right now in our small team of people. My boss is great and very easy to get along with. He's a gem. Two other co-workers are neutral and can be reasoned with on any given situation. There's one... "my partner"... who is just a royal PITA to get along with. To him, everything is urgent, must be done now and done w/o any excusses or flaws. It's a "my way" or it's wrong" kind of deal.
This man is bright, articulate and very good at many things. However, pleasing him is almost always an uphill battle and usually at my expense. (He pushes me hard for good cause, but the results are longer days and little monitary ROI at the moment) Am about to rock that boat a little bit harder and see what happens.
Needless to say, we are headed for a confrontation soon. It could go either way. We may lock horns and dig in hard on our respective positions and give each other a lot of heart burn. Or, we can reason things out, set a new course and learn to respect each other and set reasonable and doable boundaries.
I'll need to work with/through my boss on the situation, see what he thinks and then give things time to gel. In the meantime, I have to remain calm, think things through, explain my position and be ready to set some firm boundaries.
Anyway, roll that wheel "after" you have a reasonably solid battle plan worked out. Learn to accept the unexpected, determine what can or cannot be changed/fixed and flex as needed. Just be sure to set some solid boundaries/limits along the way too. If that can be done most of the time, it'll work out well.
Life is not perfect and neither are we. "Perfectionists" are doomed to frustration, lack of getting things done, cannot get along w/ most folks and lots of procrastination. Getting past all that takes a lot of inner soul searching. If we cannot manage or control a given situational outcome, we have to let it go or learn to flex and work out/around the best outcome for all parties that will listen. (Work around them if they cannot/will not hear)
Trust this, the wheel has already been invented. We can save time by using it and adjusting some aspects to make it work better for our given needs, situations and purposes. A wheel is designed to roll as it works. If we are not careful, we can wind up using it wrong and work a lot harder than is needed.
Ever try to flop a wheel/tire around? It takes a lot more work, does not go the way we want it too and does not work as designed unless we roll it. Even a flat tire rolls smoother then flopping the darn thing along.... LOL!!! Keep that in mind and all will come out well in time.
Swez
PS Yes, have flopped a few wheels in my day too. It just does not work well that way and sometimes we forget the basic design of a wheel... roll it and it will move predictably. Flopping it along, we'll work a lot harder and get less ROI for the energy spent doing so. Remember that picture... wheels roll even when flat. They do not flop well at all. hehe
Victor on 11/7/2007 06:38:41
Daves getting older.....!
Ash on 11/7/2007 18:15:14
Yeah, good point, weird analogy Swez....
I truly expect some failures and in fact look forward to them. Sounds screwy I know, but taking a positive outlook, that will be a push for more knowledge. That is how I came to the point of the little that I know. A little creativeness helped too.
I have to thank everyone for their input as I appreciate every bit of it. Don't think that I haven't learned anything or will ignore it.
This is nothing major in the way that I see it, just a normal step in the path of what we all enjoy. Rise or fall, I shall not regret taking the chance to find out. Who knows, I may just learn something along the way while having fun.
Thanks fellas!
Ash
The sub appears to be an 8" consisting of a pulp paper cone, 20-30 oz magnet, 3- 3/16" top mounting depth. It also has a 5/8" spacing ring mounted to the top. With a 5/8" mdf mounting ring on a new sub that would bring an available depth of about 3- 7/8". Not much I know...
After testing the sub without further tearing it apart I got the t/s specs except for Vas. I didn't feel Vas was that important as it would require disassembling the driver; also the available space in the factory box seemed to be in the .3- 3.5 ft^3 range at the most. That narrows availability down a bit, though the box size is common for most eight inchers.
T/S is as follows:
Fs= 42.39hz
Re= 1.59 ohms
Qes= 0.6077
Qms= 5.762
Qts= .549
Le= 0.3125
Clearly it is a 2 ohm sub as stated. With a mid Qts, rather high Fs, it's nature tends to be somewhat robust in the small enclosure. Assuming this with Vas unknown. Still that would be the object to get apparent bass from a small sub in a fairly large suv.
With the fs/qes ratio (EBP 69.75) and no viewable port in the factory box, it is safe to assume that it is a sealed setup. I wouldn't doubt that the amp has a slight amount of eq-ing like normal amp boosts to extend low end a little or either relying on cabin gain to help out.
There a few subs that are very close in specs and recommended enclosure, yet mounting depth seems to be somewhat of an issue. Anyone had any luck replacing one of these? At best if the sub's coil isn't damaged a surround kit may work. Worst an extensive search for a viable replacement.
Replies (24)
trunkisloud on 10/29/2007 19:12:55
too bad he doesnt have subs...you could just unhook it...my cousin just unhooked his yesterday in his 02 tahoe...same reason...
Ash on 10/29/2007 19:32:14
The closest match without install issues is the E Designs EHQS 8" 2 ohm version. Problem is that it will be in a Qtc of about 1- 1.1 in the stock box giving it a 2 db lift in the 80-90hz region. F3 rolloff will be in the mid to low 50's. Still not sure about the stock location's actual ft^3.
That response would be typical of most budget subs nowadays including some higher brand names. May not be a bad choice, if not the only one.
The thing about bose that they use less than superior drivers in extravagant enclosures. Their amplifiers usually include any type of crossovers and eq's to make up for the driver's inefficiencies. That is what makes them most difficult to work with. Replacing them with oem is even worse as they don't normally offer parts. They usually require you to send the unit back to be repaired.
swez on 10/29/2007 22:49:29
A new surround might be your best answer here. They are a bit delictate to remove the old foam from the pulp cone, but after that's done, a sharp razor knife will help remove the gasket and can be reused in many cases too. (Assuming the cone and coil are in good shape.
The other trick is a good 3-point alignment of the coil in the gap. That means the dust cap has to come off too. (But a steady hand and patience will get that part done... this may not be needed for a new foam surround job though) The question is... can you find the right surround kit for this sub? Some deep digging will probably get a good result. Here's how to do it:
http://simplyspeakers.com/speakerrepairinstructions.htm
Swez
Ash on 10/31/2007 19:39:28
There seems to be a good flood of bose surround replacement kits on the market as if they already know and probably do.
I found several that will work, but the guy insists that he doesn't want to waste the money into repairing it. Can't understand why if he plans on keeping the stock.
I tried numerous sources to find a suitable sub that works and choices are slim. Plus if I can't measure the Vas, then he surely is stuck. I'll see if he won't mind me removing the grille cloth from the front of the woofer so I can test it. I at least would like to know what bose' design intentions were. Just out of curiousity.....
swez on 11/1/2007 19:53:16
Hum, find out what he is willing to pay and if a new surround fits his budget, go that route. (A good OEM fit)
If he wants another 2 ohm sub, either use a replacement Bose Sub or try a 4+4 DVC that fits the parameters as you know them.
If not worth the money.... he's on his own? He is the client, but it's up to you to take or pass on the deal. (Sometimes we have to weight the rewards and outcome VS a client's perceptions and budget)
Swez
Ash on 11/2/2007 18:11:48
Finally let me take the front grille/gasket off.
Sensitivity measured in at 92 1w/1m.
Vas at 3.22 ft^3
Unless I figured it wrong Bose had a very less than optimum enclosure for in the stock box Qtc was around 1- 1.1? F3 was around 91hz? Normally a high Q isn't bad if the rolloff is closer to 60 which demonstrates stronger bass with pop music.
High Qts + high Vas + high spl = large box for smooth output. I wonder what was their agenda, efficiency?
Doesn't suprise me because like said, Bose sometimes uses extensive eq-ing in their car amps to augment the output. There may have been a legitimate reason to do so, but I figured it would be simpler (if not cheaper as well) to use a little better quality component.
To further investigate, a frequency plot of the trucks transfer function would need to be done. Perhaps there were some response anamolies that needed to be dealt with. Who knows.....
Anyway, in this case the E Designs EHQS 8" is a better match for the enclosure with a much lower F3, but probably not off the stock amp. After doing some figuring out if there is only a bass amp and not a full 4,5,6 channel, we may be able to come up with a solution for an bass only upgrade. The rest is on him.
I'm like you though Swez, just refoam the old sub and be done with it, or find someone that has upgraded and has the original for sale.
Case closed!
swez on 11/2/2007 19:03:03
Interesting findings there Ash. As many have said... "Not great highs, not great lows... must be Bose".
The "Q" on this sub is fine for a tin ear. (Average listener) But for those who demand more than run-of-the-mill performance, this OEM woofer is just =barely OK.
It would seem that Bose chooses efficiency over low bass in this vehicle. (D'oh) Yes, some added EQ will help, but an F3 of 90 Hz is about right for OEM systems. (100 & 10KHz boost is typical)
Sad that one pays so much for a Premium OEM Audio system and gets
so little real performance from it. I would think they rely a lot on "cabin gain" to fill in the lows to maybe 60 Hz., but still a very poor value in all.
Swez
PS A good learning experience for sure, but that's about it until your client forks out some $$ to make it worth the effort. (With your level of knowledge on these matters, he's maybe wasting your time?
Ash on 11/2/2007 20:42:39
Point taken well...
Yes, I have used this as a learning experience, yet I still find such info intriguing. People just don't know how inexpensive it can be to get a better than average setup if they will just take the initiative. These so called "highly praised" OEM's are a joke not to mention the aftermarket stuff they hook up. Most of it is just all wrong and overdone.
I have been seriously pondering obtaining a small business license and tax # for car audio consulting/system planning. With a few sources for products to utilize I might have a chance in making a supplemental income. Something very low overhead to start with an advantage over similar small shops.
There is a small but growing number of people in my area that come to me for advice, but getting them to bite is a different story. Maybe if I had the sources to offer them the products recommended and show some kind of credentials it could be made into a reality. It would be a slow crawl for a while, but it could be worth it in the long run.
I have already worked on simple & impressively inexpensive ways that is a vast improvement over stock or even some ghetto rigs. It will be up to the consumer to what distance they will go.
Any advice?
swez on 11/3/2007 04:57:03
I think you may be on to something here Ash. We have seen your progress on this hobby and the investments in good tools to access audio performance and now testing and evaluating various speaker/system perfomance criteria.
The issue is not to found in credentials but rather, results that people value and are willing to pay for such skills and services. In the early stages of learning our "chops", we give a lot away to gain familiarity and experience. That's OK and we all have to do it for a while. But, when trying to set up a side biz, many find that we have to go outside our local markets, (Friends, buddies and family) to make it to the next level. (Income producing services)
It would be good idea to identify what services and skills one can bring to a select type of consumers. Then figure out a way to market them to people that will make your reputation known and valued to a wider group of clients. Their interests and wallets will give the feedback needed to determine if this is worth the efforts.
Victor has done a wonderful job at finding and grooming a new niche in his locale. (India) The main thing in his case, there's a large and unexplored market for his services to grow and expand. In the US, this market has matured and is in decline. That just means that one has to work harder at carving out a niche they can explore and expand into later.
Think it through and find that niche. If it turns out profitable, then expand as needed to widen the net of fish in the net we cast. Just realize that there will be fish in the net that we don't want/need and how to gently cast them back into the pool.
Swez
PS There is often "no honor" given to a prophet in his own home town. To build a reputation, we often have to go outside our local familiars and build a reputation "out there".
"Expert" defined: A man with a briefcase that came from out of town, to do business. (This is so true in many ways)
Ash on 11/3/2007 15:45:45
True that....
I've looked at several options in luring specific consumers. Though the market is in a decline, that is a good indicator that most are not willing to pay normal shop charges. I've noticed more are getting into the DIY aspect to cut costs. If I can help them on a technical level and then even sell them the parts, I "kill two birds with one stone". A long shot I know, but it's perfectly possible.
Part of my niche will be offering viable & affordable products that are outside of what the expensive local shops offer. With test equipment that these shops don't use, I will be able to "spot" good gear and prove their worth with the use of live car demos.
Plus the use of a website (may be ebay for starters) for additional outside areas, easy product comparison, and extended hour shopping. A simple email account for one on one Q & A as a form of customer service. That plus personal appointments for quick consultation.
If possible, I will offer full package discounts for those looking for a full blown system. From dash kits, speakers, amps, wires, and enclosures.
Locally, transfer function measuring will be offered and speaker spec confirmation as well. This way I can try to eliminate any weak points that a newb might else encounter that will deter future clients.
Just a rough draft, but I have written down personal weaknesses and strengths that can be keyed in on.
These are some of the things that local shops don't care to do that I consider a must.
swez on 11/4/2007 03:58:09
There ya go and that plan is doable too. I have tried this approach at some levels too and it can work out well in time. Have tried combinations of one-on-one consulting, design, fabrication and installs as needed. It's harder to find good customers that see the value and are willing to pay a decent fee for the efforts. (Be clear on your fee structures up front)
Getting quality gear is not a problem as there are plenty of choices out there and not paying retail helps build a modest profit margin too. Fabrication of enclosures is kinda nice if we have the time, tools and can do them efficiently and with quality materials and good workmanship. Here, one can offer a custom fit and/or stealth for well below what a typical shop would charge and we have one thing to offer that most shops won't.... "I care enough to do this work right and well each time out".
The hardest part is doing quality installs on "any vehicle" that comes into our hands. Some are easy and very straight forward. Other vehicles are just a series of nightmares and lots of tedious labor to get at the parts we intend to swap out. This aspect seems to be the biggest challenge to learn and overcome them w/ experience, skill and considerable determination.
Most Imports and Ford trucks are very easy to work on. However, some of the older GM vehicles are a real PITA to work on and require a lot time and patience, just to swap a HU or install new door speakers. Your Blazer is probably not all that easy and my old Buick was a night mare, just to remove dash parts and door panels.
We know that now, but our customers won't unless they have tried it and gave up. Some of the newer GM cars can be pretty involved too. (On Star, amped Bose systems and the like are expensive as they need refit kits to keep those features working, yet want better than OEM performance on a tight budget)
Until one has a few of these under their belt and knows the complete picture, one can really eat time, profit and add a lot of angst to the game too. (Avoid them unless there is adequate profit to do so) Unfortunately, we don't always know that part up front.
Finally, consider "hidden liabilities" that may crop up later. The customer has an alarm or remote starter and we have to learn to work with what's already there. If we don't understand them and how to work around or with them, it can come back to bite the installer later.
Swez
PS It's a mixed bag to be sure Ash. Selling quality gear can be profitable if we have a solid supplier chain, excellent discounts and still make a decent profit margin. (Brokers and sales agents on E-bay)
FYI: Just bought a high quality, like new fly rod, reel, case and line from an e-bay seller. She paid almost $200.00 for this rig for her son who did not want it. I sniped it for $62.00 + S/H and Ins. The seller took a real bath on this one, but it was just the right deal for my interests. It came on Friday and after looking things over, dang... what a bargin this was. It was never used, sat around for a year and she sold it for 30% of what she paid for it. I can't wait to try it out.
The seller took a big hit, but the buyer, (me) made a killing. I feel bad for the seller, but have waited 18 months for a deal like this to show up and pounce on. (And pounce I did) CLAP In short, good things come to those who are patient, wait for the right deal and can buy when lean times present an excellent buying opportunity. HAPPY as a clam, the "Swezmeister" is on this bargin. (It feels like winning a modest Lotto, but did not waste a nickel in the process) One bet/one win. HAPPY
Victor on 11/4/2007 15:32:23
Forget all the knowledge I have , all the experience I have... I am earning cause I do this...
"Expert" defined: A man with a briefcase that came from out of town, to do business....
Sometimes , you need to leave behind the car audio enthusiast in you....
when you talk to a client about cheaper components, a client starts his thought process from $ 0..... Ends up choosing the entire system for $500... and then sits and stares at you expecting you to show your magic.... you do all the hard work, put in all your efforts, crack your head to get it sound just right...
when you talk cheap , he selects cheap, and pays you cheap... a guy who can choose an entire system in $500 ... damn... what can he pay you...
Instead talk to a consumer setting a benchmark... mention big names, show him dreams of amazing things that can be done with his system, raise his expectations ( not from you but from his music system )... do not forget to mention at each step the price of all these gizmos...
lets see what happens in this case...
he does have one thing in mind when he comes to you, "I want the best deal possible"...
when you talk big, his idea of "BEST" changes.... he gets to know whats really a """"Great""""" audio system.... then he is put forward a fact that hey... the more honey u put in the sweeter it gets....
ofcourse he wont go mad and spends thousands on his system. but when set with a benchmark of say $5000 making him the best system, he would know what to expect of his "cheaper system"..
number 2 - you would have by now raised his expectations from his own system, meaning he may be willing to pay in a bit more tooo.. for services as well as products.
so 2 things can happen, either ends up giving you better money and better products to make your work really easy and attractive.
or he saves you the pain of doing a whole lotta extra work to make a cheap system sound great, as he knows what to expect from his "cheap" system.
you want to earn money in this field... stop being a car audio enthusiast... just be an expensive expert
If you cant do it, hire someone to do it.. dont worry... IDEA
ure simply an expert who doesnt usually install , you're the one who designs, guides and supervises one or 2 or a team of skilled people who under your expert guidance do the install for you... they are the hands you are the brain..
and charge high fees so that you can have a margin of giving him a decent bargain...or so called .. the "Best Deal"...dont forget to make him realise at the end of this that its because of your expert consultancy services he could get himself the best system at the best rate... GRIN
Victor...
Business demands you to be a shrewd man with ethics...
1 - Give him the right advice.
(The right advice usually is spend more money get a better system. GRIN)
2 - Do not cheat your client.
( Give him the best products and the best rates, you are the best judge for "best" , not your client.)
3 - Do not cheat yourself.
( Put in your best efforts for the entire project. sell products at competitive price, meaning at market rates. the moment you give him rates much below whats in the market, you are cheating your wallet )
Its always better to one have quality client with quality economics of a quality project. rather than 5 dumb ass clients....
Ash on 11/4/2007 18:13:41
That makes sense Vic, but what if your first starting out and want people to bite? If I come off too harsh at first won't that turn people off? After all the internet is something fierce to compete with besides other local venues.
Another aspect is the market where your'e at and in the states is different, is it not? Here it is in a decline where OEM is pretty much taking over (newer premium cars mostly) with integration. So that leaves basic and/or older vehicles. The drivers of these will be consumers barely past their teens (mostly young adult males still in the testosterone stages). A few very young females and some of the older generation looking for simple replacements as well.
These consumers I suspect will not spend thousands for they don't have it or won't deem it necessary. At the same time, they may be willing to spend more on refurbishing an older car than go out and buy a new car. Not to mention no OEM will not put in such a system that will achieve high SPL levels.
The industry has already begun to change therefore you must change your "game" as well. Checking the demographics tells me that what they unknowingly want is decent gear that is matched carefully to attain good results without spending tons of money. The majority of that crowd is into SPL more than SQ which we know is easy to attain with less than premium products.
The key here is for the installer/dealer to cut costs in over head in order to still make a good profit. That can be tricky true enough, but by being an enthusiast, that will give the advantage to know how to make it possible to less discerning ears.
For example take a look at what the younger ones just on this site have for equipment....
Here is something that I ran across that is interesting to read:
http://www.vdc-corp.com/PurchasedDownloadFile.asp?type=whitepaper&id=1773
Victor on 11/5/2007 02:38:03
Yes I agree the scenario out there are different than in India.
But out here too OEM is beginning to be a huge concern.
those who are satisfied with normal listening levels and average quality, those who are not too keen on music are pretty much happy with the OEM stuff...
and those who are willing to upgrade definitely want something way better than OEM...
But this is common consumer psychology..
If you do them a good sounding system in very limited budget, they don't evaluate you according to the job done, but directly co-relate you with the value of the music system and pay you pennies...
don't come harsh.... simply don't undervalue your services and expertise....
and the higher you quote the client tends to think you're something way way special then the others out there and also that you get a better margin of giving him a good bargain.
About the industry changing, well it has been continuously transforming since car audio came into being.
industry includes, technology, manufacturers, marketing and distribution chain, consumer, and the foremost money involved.
if this is a side hobby you may be fine doing a couple of odd jobs here and there to get some extra $$$, but if you are thinking of seriously pursuing this as a career then you need to think bigger and different than the rest of the lot out there.
every car audio dealer out there talks of doing you a so called "Great system" and give you the so called "Best Deal".
so how different are you...??
Ash on 11/5/2007 04:41:49
That's a good question. Perhaps I might need to re-evaluate the present plan. Maybe spend a little "secret shopping" time in a few shops to see how much they actually know.
Still though, not sure if I would want to be in the same game as them. There would have to be something majorly different that sets me apart.
swez on 11/5/2007 06:00:48
After some thought on this whole matter, Victor has a very good working model to launch a very profitable buisness in his demographic area. (High growth potential) He is selling "value and sizzle" and it does work well in an expanding market.
However, we have a very different scenario in the US demographic chain. Our market has matured and is now in decline. Most OEM's have upgraded to branded names that some people are most willing to pay a bit more for, on the front end of buying a vehicle. They can swallow an "inferior" $1,500.00 upgrade when the payments are integrated into the purchase price of a given car and paid off in 60 months.
Getting a consumer to pony up $1,500.00 out of pocket and coupled with a $300.00/mo car note is another matter. This is especially true in the younger generation we have now. (18-25 year old males) They are often less educated, (Than Asian, Indian and European counterparts) have less earning potential and tend to want "instant gratification" with cheap goods rather than taking the long-term view of investing more money and have a great system that will give them 5-8 years of above average performance and enjoyment later.
FYI: I see this well in the new business model of the company I work for now. Here, we buy low cost, medium value products from China and other low price/quality sources, mark up the price, deliver a display to the customer's place of employment and then sell/deliver the goods to them a week after they see the products on display.
The model works well enough for the consumer as they don't have to go to a store, waste time and gas shopping and the products are delivered right to their work place. They do nothing hard. It all comes right to them and all they need do is fill out an order form and include payment. We don't charge S/H or sales tax either. (That is part of the end price)
The company works on volume and modest profit margins here. The labor is cheap, the products are cheap and the service is well above average. The profit margin to a typical owner/agent is about 20% over cost. The more products we put out in the field, the higher the sales volume to the company and their agents. However, business expenses are growing as the price of fuel climbs and the cost of keeping our delivery trucks on the road is not that cheap either.
The point in mentioning this is that people want cheap gifts and goods and don't have to do very much to get them. As the US economy errodes, well paying tech jobs are being out sourced to low labor cost service providers. American's with these skills are losing their well-paying jobs in droves and having to settle for service sector jobs that pay a whole lot less then we once enjoyed. (And we have to work longer and harder as well)
Manufacturing jobs are also falling away or pay a lot less then they did even 5 years ago. A few years back, a typical factory worker could earn $15 - 25.00/hr, have very good benefits and a decent lifestyle too. Today, they are lucky to make $12.00/hr, little or no benefits and the cost of living is gradually erroding a one good lifestyle to one of just over broke at the end of a month.
A large chunk of manufacturing jobs have gone off shore to cheap labor countries like China, Mexico, Asia and India. This displaces the US worker to the rate of 350,000 jobs lost a month. This has been going on since the late 90's and the trend is getting worse each year.
There's a lot more to this then one can cover in a few paragraphs. In short, American's are losing well-paying jobs and expensive benefit packages at a rate that will put a huge number of people in the poor house. In the Midwest, we once had a booming economy and employment was about 96%.
Wages and benefits were very good at all socio-economic levels in the 80's and 90's. Today, there is a huge gap in jobs that pay well VS just over broke. Folks are losing their benefits, work for lower wages and even if well educated, they are hired into new positions at 50% of what that skill commanded only a few years ago. Company profits are the main goal now. (Giving the investors and stock holders a nice ROI) If they don't get it in one area, they move investment dollars to more profitable ones.
This is what we are facing now and is only going to get worse later. American's used to be hard working, well paid and spent a lot of money that was floated on credit. (Living well above our means) Well, that trend will continue for a while longer, but sooner or later, the bottom will fall out.
The value of the US dollar is declining rapidly since NAFTA was inacted. We were once top dogs in many areas, but now... the piper has come for the payments. Greed, graft, gluttony and slimey business deals have put many middle income American's in a very tough situation. The middle class is shrinking rapidly. The rich are getting more of the pie and the poor are growing in numbers each quarter.
That's why small business have grown in the past 10 years. Many have lost or quit Corporate jobs and scaled back spending until their small business' grow enough to give them adequate buying power again. The problem is, most small businesses are not well funded and many go under in 3-5 years. It takes a lot of business savvy to start a small company.
Too many try, but don't have the skills and capital to go the distance. These are the ones that go belly up. Some will grow to a point that they sell out to larger entities, take their profits and retire if they were smart, lucky and able to live off the sale of said biz. Unfortunately, this is not reality for most small business owners/operators. They eek out a living, work long hours and barely meet the bills at the end of each month.
I don't mean to rant here, but if one looks at the big picture and then digs for the details, it is easy to see that if American's don't wake up, join forces and hold our leader's feet to the fire, we are doomed to slow demise and live like many 3rd world countries do now.
Pay attention guys... this monster is at the door and we are their intended lunch!
Swez
Ash on 11/5/2007 20:45:03
Whoa! Now that's deep. True, but deep....
I see both points and understand your concerns, but Swez has a direct one. One that I am willing to bet on.
Running a shop from a low overhead point of view will actually be more profitable as the only thing I will be doing is middlemanning. Installs will be minimum for the cost of install bays and additional labor drives overhead up very much. Inventory will kept to a minimum,if at all, which will drive away the "gotta have it now" crowd that causes problems.
Of course I will offer much guidance into what products to buy and how to them get up and running right. This way the consumer feels they are saving money by doing the majority of the work with only me supervising. There will be only a select few that might want me to do the work and they will pay good for those services. Others will attempt to do it themselves like it always has been, but will have the help of a knowledgable customer service.
You got to understand that these are young folks that have limited funds but need advanced help to stretch the dollars into what they need. An unmaximized expensive setup will sound worse than a maximized semi inexpensive setup. Of course everything will be explained up front so there are no surprises. I doubt it will change how much these kids are willing to spend, but at least they will know the details. Instead, now some guy takes their money and tells them what they want to hear because he really doesn't know much himself.
This is what I see everyday and if I can make a slight difference while putting a few extra ducks in my pocket, then why not? Everybody's happy...
Think in the terms of Avon, no one is committed unless they really want it.
swez on 11/6/2007 05:19:59
Yep, I get the concept well and have tried it on a small scale for a few years now. It can pan out if one can attract the right kind of consumers too. (That's the hard part... sorting out the wheat from the chaff)
This is a very dicey business proposition and in my own experience, the learning curve is choppy at best. Have done custom installs, enclosures and tech service type work for others and for the most part, the customer always walked away a winner and very happy w/ the results. (I went the extra miles w/ them to insure that)
On the other hand, most of the time I made a modest profit or actually lost a little on these deals. Some of this was due to my own lack of experience on a given job, underbidded my services or gave out a lot more effort than the customer was willing to pay for. (Ouch.... those really sting)
Part of this was the learning curve thingy. The other side of the equation was... "How much is our skill and expertise really worth to others?" The answer lies in the consumer's wallet. We don't always have a clear picture of that part of the scenario. Why? There are many good reasons to look at:
1. Customer does not know what they really want
2. Customer talks like a high roller, but is really a cheat at heart
3. We can over-estimate our value, knowledge or how long it really takes to walk others through a given system
The last item is the real gotcha in this kind of biz. We may know the steps and how to do them well. However, we are using the customer's hands, his "lack" of knowledge and often a finite budget or shifting priorities. We don't have much control over any of these potential snares unless we set a price up front, get a good faith deposit and the customer pays the balance at the end of the project.
Better still, we get our fees up front and outline "EXACTLY" what we are able and willing to offer in terms of services. That's a hard one to do unless we have built a solid reputation, customer is fully committed to the plan and we attract customers that value our skills and experience enough to go the distance and finish the job on schedule. These are doable, but expect to take a few $$ hits in the early stages and learn from them.
Now, "brokering" gear and sundry items are another story. If one can find great products at discounted prices and sell them to others at a modest profit, this can be profitable if we get enough customers and there is a steady flow of them too. (E-bay approach is a good model) However, instead of an auction, we use the "buy it now" approach.
Here, the customer gives us a budget and and we search for the best ways to meet their needs on that budget and make a reasonable profit too. (25% is a good baseline margin, but if we can get 50% or better margins, even better) This is a good deal for all parties in the game as they buy from us, we guide them through the work and earn money on both the sale of gear and the installation helps.
One big snag in this one though... if the customer makes an honest but ignorant error and damages the gear, who foots the repair bill? Or, what if the product we sold them is defective, then what? Now the customer is unhappy, he transfers his problem back to the service provider and now we are on the tread mill again.
See what I mean about having so many variables that are not fully under our control? This is where it gets dicey pal. How far do we need to go to help the client recover from such events? What is our liability and response to such common scenarios? If you have an effective way to manage these glitches, let me know! This is where I have encountered losses and had to work extra hard to get things back on track, satify the customer and keep a clean reputation too. I've had a few of these and they are messy and expensive to clean up. (Often at the expense of our profit line which has now turned into a loss)
OK, am not trying to discourage you here Ash. Am just trying to give some good "heads up" info for you to chew on a while. It's difficult to factor in all the potential variables that come with type of business arrangement.
In the beginning, I did not see all these potential snags. Most times, things go well and without any major glitches and everybody is happy. However, when a big glitch comes, (And they will in time) can we absorb them, work out a good fix and still make some profit? If the answer is yes 80% of the time, it's worth trying.
Comments?
Swez
PS Believe me, being a very honest guy is a given. But we don't know what we don't know until one of these speed bumps hit us in the face and we have to deal with them skillfully and with integrity. I know you will... but some customers are not as honest as we are. Some will make honest mistakes and ask us to help them fix it. Others will make bone-head errors, lie about the problem they created and try to pin the expense back on us.
I've had a few of these over time and have elected to pull back and let the dust settle for now. Unfortuately, a weak economy is working against all of us. What started out as a great opportunity a few years ago, has morphed into a very tight margin business model. It's getting harder to find/attract customers with healthy budgets, know what they are doing and get great results w/ minimal glitches. This takes a lot of high level communications between us and the customer. We can do our part flawlessly and still wind up on the short end of the deal. (Be wise and THINK this all through before pulling the trigger) SMILE
Ash on 11/6/2007 18:57:48
That's the part I am somewhat worried about. That will take a greater part of judgement of me to determine what risks to take.
I know at times there will be the situation when I will have to admit to myself and the consumer that what they ask is beyond my skills. If I see that I can help them, then I should. If not, then I must have no problem sending them to the better man. Hopefully I will still gain the respect for being honest instead of seeing the green opportunity only to end with detrimental results.
On the other hand, there will be times too that I will have to be willing to take some carefully calculated risks. I do heavily stress "carefully calculated". I cannot ever be able to step up to the plate, take the easy way out, and expect to gain. A sacrifice isn't a bad thing if it helps build some sort of character & confidence. Pride is a horse of a different color, foolish!
Look at the chances, sacrifices, and focuses I have made so far. Though somewhat meniscule, I must have at least a little bit of faith to know that all will be alright the majority of the time.
I don't want to be a fool, just jumping out there with nothing to stand on nor fall back to. That's why I consult you guys on almost everything I do. Your views are very important in my quests and believe me; I do regard them with the utmost concern.
This is just something that has been on my mind a long time and it feels like one of those things that if I don't try, then I am already a failure. It could be that I have missed the train already. There were several opportunities missed as well as plenty of other opinions in that I should already have made that step. I doubted myself and let fear take over. I felt my skills were inferior compared to these local shops, but I know that it's not true. I realized that I went in another direction.
All that is left is for me to build up very slowly until. Until may never happen and that is why I won't go out on a limb. I still will keep a day job as I have for the last 13 years. All else will be part time and that is all I can stand to give at the moment. Limited hours will mean limited funds, but I have a lot of love for the hobby and making big bucks is not the main focus. No I won't be free, but I'm not pimpin rides either.
Does that makes sense?
swez on 11/6/2007 19:18:40
Yes, yopu make sense!
But we don't always know "the variables" we will faced initially or 'down the road". Agreed... start slow, see what develops and use this as a learning opportunity too.
Personally, this was not a get rich quick idea on my part either! (Not even close) I wanted to help others and get a decent return too. It did not turn out that way in all situations, but I learned a few things along the way. Just trying to to give a few pointers is all...
Our personal integrity is the bottom line. However, we have so little control over what other hands might do. It is a deleicate balance at best. Tread lightly and move ever-so slowly as you go. It might work out fine. But prepare for the worst.
Swez
Ash on 11/6/2007 20:33:20
Agreed! You and I are almost always on the same page....
Like you, I want to help others with some fair rewards as well. Nothing worse than seeing people getting ripped off when they could had much better for less. Maybe I live in a fantasy world, but I remember when it didn't take much to sound good. Now the equipment is a little better at the same price and all you see is people being misled.
For the most part, they listen to what I say and then there's the hard heads that come stumbling back after being warned. The latter half can't be changed, it's just in them to be like that. The first half need more than talk, they want to see proof before diving in. If I want them to believe, then I need to give proof.
Don't worry though, I already know how far not to go. That has been pre-determined and it's not far at all. I know I won't be able to reach everyone, but for those I do, I will try my best to reward them. That is with their money's worth!
My problem has always been getting started. If I could get the ball rolling, then maybe it won't seem so scary.
swez on 11/7/2007 05:08:58
Yes, we track very much on the same path and are trying to make an imperfect world a better place then when we found it. That's the trouble with "visionary" types... we see a better world available, but how to get a hold on it and shake things out of the status quo?
Agreed, there's a constant formula that I am reminded up from a former boss....
1. 33% of the people we meet will always value and resonate well with our ideas and "get on the bus"
2. 33% will be neutral and can be swayed by a good presentation of the facts, benefits and a little passionate appeal
3. 33% will be stubborn, obstinant and we'll struggle to get along, no matter what the situation or issue is
Think about that a bit... it is almost a truism and we have a 66% chance of getting things done with little or no resistance. The rest of the pie is an upward climb w/ few converts, but they don't come easy. This group is always "kicking and screaming against the goads" the whole way.
I see the same thing at work right now in our small team of people. My boss is great and very easy to get along with. He's a gem. Two other co-workers are neutral and can be reasoned with on any given situation. There's one... "my partner"... who is just a royal PITA to get along with. To him, everything is urgent, must be done now and done w/o any excusses or flaws. It's a "my way" or it's wrong" kind of deal.
This man is bright, articulate and very good at many things. However, pleasing him is almost always an uphill battle and usually at my expense. (He pushes me hard for good cause, but the results are longer days and little monitary ROI at the moment) Am about to rock that boat a little bit harder and see what happens.
Needless to say, we are headed for a confrontation soon. It could go either way. We may lock horns and dig in hard on our respective positions and give each other a lot of heart burn. Or, we can reason things out, set a new course and learn to respect each other and set reasonable and doable boundaries.
I'll need to work with/through my boss on the situation, see what he thinks and then give things time to gel. In the meantime, I have to remain calm, think things through, explain my position and be ready to set some firm boundaries.
Anyway, roll that wheel "after" you have a reasonably solid battle plan worked out. Learn to accept the unexpected, determine what can or cannot be changed/fixed and flex as needed. Just be sure to set some solid boundaries/limits along the way too. If that can be done most of the time, it'll work out well.
Life is not perfect and neither are we. "Perfectionists" are doomed to frustration, lack of getting things done, cannot get along w/ most folks and lots of procrastination. Getting past all that takes a lot of inner soul searching. If we cannot manage or control a given situational outcome, we have to let it go or learn to flex and work out/around the best outcome for all parties that will listen. (Work around them if they cannot/will not hear)
Trust this, the wheel has already been invented. We can save time by using it and adjusting some aspects to make it work better for our given needs, situations and purposes. A wheel is designed to roll as it works. If we are not careful, we can wind up using it wrong and work a lot harder than is needed.
Ever try to flop a wheel/tire around? It takes a lot more work, does not go the way we want it too and does not work as designed unless we roll it. Even a flat tire rolls smoother then flopping the darn thing along.... LOL!!! Keep that in mind and all will come out well in time.
Swez
PS Yes, have flopped a few wheels in my day too. It just does not work well that way and sometimes we forget the basic design of a wheel... roll it and it will move predictably. Flopping it along, we'll work a lot harder and get less ROI for the energy spent doing so. Remember that picture... wheels roll even when flat. They do not flop well at all. hehe
Victor on 11/7/2007 06:38:41
Daves getting older.....!
Ash on 11/7/2007 18:15:14
Yeah, good point, weird analogy Swez....
I truly expect some failures and in fact look forward to them. Sounds screwy I know, but taking a positive outlook, that will be a push for more knowledge. That is how I came to the point of the little that I know. A little creativeness helped too.
I have to thank everyone for their input as I appreciate every bit of it. Don't think that I haven't learned anything or will ignore it.
This is nothing major in the way that I see it, just a normal step in the path of what we all enjoy. Rise or fall, I shall not regret taking the chance to find out. Who knows, I may just learn something along the way while having fun.
Thanks fellas!
Ash
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