Hi everyone, once again! Thought I'd start a new post. Probably gonna have a few topics on this new car since I really wanna do this one right. It's been a while since there's been a good full vehicle overhaul, and I'm ready to donate some money!!!
For those of you that haven't seen me around before, here are some pictures of previous systems in my Suzuki Grand Vitara, and some other cars I've done minor work on:
http://tufts.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2018197&l=7dea6&id=1701198
http://tufts.facebook.com/album.php?aid=54401&l=68a1c&id=1701198
http://tufts.facebook.com/album.php?aid=54108&l=57c63&id=1701198
But on to the matter at hand. Here are the exterior pictures of my new car (will take interior pics tomorrow hopefully):
http://tufts.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2059699&l=c4162&id=1701198
My first two big issues are figuring out what sub configuration to go with so I can start building the enclosure(s), and getting a remote start installed that will work with my manual transmission.
*Sorry if this post is getting long, but please bear with me*
So my original thought for the subwoofers would be to put 2 12's in a ported box, with the subs and ports firing directly into the back seats. I would seal the front of this box off so that no air would go from the main cab into the trunk. This way I would eliminate most of the trunk rattle, and when by myself I could flip the back seats down and have excellent bass right in the cab.
However, turns out that in this high performance car, the back seats actually have the strut bars built into them, so they don't flip down!!! THINK
All I have is an opening about 8.5" wide and 15" high where the middle 20% of the seat flips down. There are also holes in the rear deck where speakers could go, but they are in the rear doors instead.
Knowing all this, I have decided I will leave that flip down section of the seat unobstructed so I can put snowboards in there during the winter, and not have to buy roof racks. What I am thinking is possibly building a box for each sub (probably a 12") in each rear corner of the trunk.
I have always loved ported boxes, and had thought it would be a great idea to somehow port these boxes into the rear deck. However, I don't know if this would matter if I was leave that part of the flipped down.
I will stop rambling now, and wait for others to hopefully process all this and add their input. I know it's alot, but I wanted to be very clear where I stood on all possible ideas I've had so far.
I do have all the measurements, but figured they are not necessary at this time. I would love to hear all input.
Thanks all for your help! And if anyone knows anything about where to get a remote start system that will be capable of bypassing the immobilizer chip in my key, please let me know!
-Ian-
Replies (21)
gsandha99 on 10/22/2007 17:21:14
Are you just doing the subs? nothing else? no HU or components??? :D.......im a fan of sealed enclosures myself..but you will have mooorree than enough bass!
cybersailor420 on 10/22/2007 19:26:05
no no no, i'm doin it all. but i have everything else pretty much figured out. this is just the biggest decision for me, so i would really love some input.
SQLThump on 10/23/2007 17:40:43
First, let me say that I have been impressed with your work when i first came to CK. Now I must say, your work is some of the sickest looking stuff I have ever seen man! Your Suzuki is Nuts!!!
Ok, now that that is said, nice choice on the WRX. If I was going out to buy a late model sport compact, I would have chose none other except for the blue colered version of the same.
What are you thinking for your components and whatnot? I am assuming that this will be more conservative than the Grand Vitara was correct? Knowing that, and what your goals are with this system would help point out a good bass engine. I am not sure the dimensions of your trunk, but I don't think there is room for ported L7's back there!
Give us the drop, and I will try to help as much as possible. I am not too sure of how much I can though, just looking at your work makes me feel like a chump. J/K, but that is some killer stuff. But I would be more than happy to help as much as possible!
cybersailor420 on 10/23/2007 22:33:02
hahaha! Well thank you very much for your kind compliments. I always assumed my work never quite looked finished (at least in the wiring dept.) but it definitely gets the point accross!
You are quite correct in assuming I will be scaling down on this project. However, I would still like to keep the bass up and as close to 150 as possible. You know, just in case... ;)
Just my quick thoughts on the stereo are
head unit: pioneer premier 980BT
components: Infinity 2-ohm component sets (not sure how many yet... maybe 2 in front, one back)
I have all my 1/0 wiring to go to the back and do the big3. Definitely gonna upgrade the bat, and possibly add one in the back. Haven't looked much for an alternator yet, but did see a 140 amp for about $200 I think. Doesn't help much... But the best thing about this engine is the alternator is right on top!
I think I'm basically set on everything, and can even decide on the subs myself. I just really want someone to give me some solid input on a way to really get some bass out of this car, without the majority of it being stuck in the trunk.
Like I said, if the seats just folded down, I would put the box right about behind them and seal off the trunk from cab. However, all I have is that small 8.5" x 15" opening to get bass through since the seats have the strut bars (or anti-sway bars??) built into them.
So please, comment away!!!
-Ian-
and thanks again SQLThump!
cybersailor420 on 10/23/2007 22:33:04
hahaha! Well thank you very much for your kind compliments. I always assumed my work never quite looked finished (at least in the wiring dept.) but it definitely gets the point accross!
You are quite correct in assuming I will be scaling down on this project. However, I would still like to keep the bass up and as close to 150 as possible. You know, just in case... ;)
Just my quick thoughts on the stereo are
head unit: pioneer premier 980BT
components: Infinity 2-ohm component sets (not sure how many yet... maybe 2 in front, one back)
I have all my 1/0 wiring to go to the back and do the big3. Definitely gonna upgrade the bat, and possibly add one in the back. Haven't looked much for an alternator yet, but did see a 140 amp for about $200 I think. Doesn't help much... But the best thing about this engine is the alternator is right on top!
I think I'm basically set on everything, and can even decide on the subs myself. I just really want someone to give me some solid input on a way to really get some bass out of this car, without the majority of it being stuck in the trunk.
Like I said, if the seats just folded down, I would put the box right about behind them and seal off the trunk from cab. However, all I have is that small 8.5" x 15" opening to get bass through since the seats have the strut bars (or anti-sway bars??) built into them.
So please, comment away!!!
-Ian-
and thanks again SQLThump!
trunkisloud on 10/23/2007 23:39:12
in every trunk application ive ever messed with the subs always sounded better facing the rear....increased cabin gain...more sound....not sure if your car would be different or not...not worth cuttin out the seat in that nice ride just to try it...unless youre very confident in your upholstery skills...
SQLThump on 10/24/2007 02:24:01
Yeah, as trunk states, generally trunks will benefit from having rearward facing subs, in fact, I can't think of one I have worked with that didn't .
If I had to reccommend an "easy" way to get the bass #'s to the 150's, I have seen a single Fosgate Power T1 12" sub push around that number in a little Subaru station wagon. This thing hit so hard that you could see the roof panel excursioning (is that a word?) just as much as the sub did. If I am not mistaken, that was either 3.5 of a whole 5 cubic foot ported box.
It is much easier to put something large in the back of a wagon than a sedan, but I think a single high powered 12 or 15 would probably get you close to the 150's. I have never built anything that loud, the loudest I have probably put together was probably around the low 130's, and that wasn't even my personal vehicle.
I would reccomend putting this single driver on one side of the trunk, facing rewards or diagonally from the drivers side foward corner, to the passenger rear corner. By doing one of these, you give the all that air that your low freqency driver is pumping out something to echo off of, and to get a little bit louder and deeper. Plus, you maintain snowboard room. (But where do you go boarding in the Virgin Islands? I live in Colorado, and lately we barely get enough snow for a decently long season!)
If you aimed it diagonally, and at the right angle, it could be like a nice billairds shot with an impact in one corner hitting another wall, and bouncing right into the center pocker....err ski hole.
It it probably a strut bar going through the rear seats, as a sway bar is generally employed under the car. Don't hate Subaru yet, this stiffens up your frame, and will make a nice addition to any suspension modifacations you may make in the future. Basically one of the rails your vehicle is designed to run on.
As for the Infinity comps, I am not too sure how well they could keep up with a 150DB bass engine. Plus, running more than one set could be more of a hassle than anything if cancellations become an issue. You may want to look at checking something out that is in the combined power range of the pair of comps, but with half the drivers.
Looking foward to how this will turn out, and stick with us while you build it. I would love to observe how this turns out, even if wiring looks a bit unfinished...(you should see my unfinished wiring..............)
swez on 10/24/2007 06:15:44
The Infinity Comps are very strong when powered adequately. In this smaller sports car, try front Comps only initially and if you really miss the rear fill, then work that out later.
FYI: These 2 ohm units cannot be run off most HU amps as they need 4 ohms per channel to keep it clean and not overheat the HU. Ideally, an amp that can deliver a solid 100 watts RMS @ 2 ohms/channel will definitely fill the bill.
That vent opening mentioned is about 127 in^2. It will pass some bass for sure, but it may be a tad small to get the bass monster from the trunk to the cabin w/o more venting area.
Does the rear deck have speaker openings as well? If so, consider leaving the speakers out for more venting area.
Comments?
Swez
SQLThump on 10/24/2007 16:47:29
Swez, he states that the rear deck has holes for speakers, but no speakers, as the rears are mounted in the doors. BONUS!
cybersailor420 on 10/24/2007 20:51:31
yes SQL, you are correct! Unfortunately the rear deck is a soid piece of carpeted particle board. The holes for the speakers are just in the metal frame for the rear deck. So I think i will just carefully cut out holes in the particle board, leaving the carpet in place. Or just take the whole piece out... have to see when I pick up the car next week.
So I'm really lookin for some more specifics on sub configuration. Let's say I want 2 12" subs in individual ported boxes... What do you think about putting a box behind each side of the seat, butted up to the seat and the wheel well. Each sub firing at some angle between directly facing the rear bumper up to facing the opposing rear corner of the trunk. Then, how about having the ports coming up into the rear deck, or should they just fire towards the back of the trunk as well?
This is the kind of input I am hoping some of the pros can help me with. Once I have decided on these issues, I will look up some sub options and do a rough draft box design.
Please don't worry about the rest of the system yet, I will figure that all out when I get there. I really just want to get this box built, but make sure it's exactly what I want.
Thanks again all.
-Ian-
swez on 10/25/2007 20:13:54
OK, got the plan a bit better now. Mids in the rear doors are good and if you need more air vent for bass in the trunk to cabin, then consider cutting out the holes in the rear deck for added vent area.
Tip: May have to modify this plan a tad as a 6x9 hole w/o some kind of physical support under it will make the carpet flutter and stretch later. You may find a matrix of 1/2" holes may work better and have some firm material to glue down the rear deck carpeting to.
The dual sub idea mentioned has some good possibilities. The trick is placement and firing angles to use. As for porting, yes, have seen a few guys port into the rear deck, but here we need longer ports outside the box and flexing type tubes are best used for this method. (Larger diameter ports help too. (4-6" dia) This can be a neat trick, but also requires some very careful port length planning and a neat install. (Avoid "smoke stacks" that stick up well above the rear deck)
Otherwise, just install the ports on the front baffle panel and vent into the cabin as noted earlier.
Swez
cybersailor420 on 10/26/2007 00:34:38
I assume you mean vent into the trunk in that last sentence?
I agree that would be easier, but I am pretty good with calculating and building all that. I feel it is easily within in my realm.
Now, if you don't think it will make a difference in sound, then I won't bother. But otherwise I'm figuring it would be good to have the ports go through the back deck, firing directly into the cabin. This way, that small opening in the middle of the rear seat is available to transfer as much sound as possible from the subs themselves firing in the the trunk.
Let me know if this reason sounds correct to you. And thank you Swez for joining in. I'd been waiting for some higher caliber information to make a more definite decision.
I will start looking up subs hopefully tomorrow and report back with some ideas. I do have a fair amount of trunk space for a sedan, so it shouldn't be too hard to find subs with box specs that will fit.
-Ian-
SQLThump on 10/26/2007 01:34:22
I honestly don't think that porting through the rear deck will really help much. I have run a port through a rear deck before, and it had good SPL, but it was a bandpass box, and port noise was an issure as well. Plus on top of that, the port tuning was off due to the added length to go from the box to the rear deck. It did damn near completely eliminate any rattling from the vehicle though. The only thing that vibrated was the side trim.
These issues could be corrected with your paticular install, but when I put the same enclosure in a different vehicle, it hit waay harder with the trunk to echo off of.
Personally, I think that aligning the center of the port as closely as possible with the center of the sub would be a better way to go about doing this, as it will keep the firing angle of the subs to the trunk more consistant, as oppossed to sending bass waves in different directions through the cabin. I am not too sure of the specifics, but that could make things nasty.
Anybody else got another opinion for this gentleman?
swez on 10/26/2007 06:28:17
Remember that bass waves are very long and have a wide dispersion pattern inside a vehicle. (Almost omnidirectional) Mids are semi-narrow and tweeters are very narrow in dispersion patterns. (Mids say 60-70 degrees, Tweeters are more like 30 degrees)
Looking at the port issues mentioned, remember the port is a tuning device. The output frequency is narrow and tuned to a target frequency range. Say we tune the port to about 30 Hz. We get plenty of SPL through the port at about 30 - 45 Hz. Above that, the cone is the main source of SPL and the port does almost nothing above ~50 Hz.
We can eliminate port noise by using larger ports as well. (A 3.5" - 5.0" port diameter will not offer much port noise if the box and port designs are well matched. A shorter 2" diameter port will probably give noise problems, so we just go larger in port diameter and it needs to be longer as well.
Swez
PS Started a new job this month and it's an early get up and long hours. When I finish a shift, I'm pretty well shot physically and mentally. So, during the week, may post a bit before going to work and on weekends, but not so much in the evenings as before. Hopefully, this old body will adjust in time and get used to the rigors and adapt. (After a full day, am so sore and pooped out, I just grab a light meal, take some Motrin and go to bed early)
Hey fellas, don't get old... the brain power is better from experience and such, but the body has limits and will rebel. Stay in shape physically and mentally and it will go easier later. SMILE
cybersailor420 on 10/26/2007 12:40:35
Yea, I had thought about what you are saying about only getting a limited bandpass frequency throught the port into the cab. As you've seen from my other cars, I really just like loud bass, and like to show it off from time to time.
I am just so used to knowing what I'm doing with cars like suvs, hatchbacks, and wagons, that it's hard for me to make a decision not knowing what the best course of action is.
Swez, do you think I will notice any significant differences between porting through the rear deck or just firing on the same plane as the subs in the trunk?
If I were to port into the trunk, should have the ports and subs firing in different directions. For example, I know in an SUV, it is normally ideal to fire the subs up and the ports back...
And do you think the subs should fire straight towards the bumper, or is firing them towards opposing corners of the trunk sound good?
I hate to ask so many questions, but I just haven't had much experience with enclosed trunks... Almost every box I've done in this case has had the subs firing directly into the cab with the back seats folded down...
Thanks again!!
-Ian-
swez on 10/26/2007 19:38:29
Good questions and each vehicle has its own quirks and characteristics to deal with.
Frankly, porting into the trunk makes the most sense here. That nets a wider band of bass in the trunk. The trick here, is getting all that, (full 1-3/4 octaves of bass) into the cabin and well balanced too. This is where the air vent issues come into play.
Initially, I would do ported boxes and located the apex where the bass is strong and powerful in the trunk. Once this parameter is defined, then getting that into the cabin would be the next step.
As forport location, I'd opt for the ports/vents on the front bafflle panel and let the trunk dictate the rest. Once that is solved, then getting enough bass energy into the main cabin can be addressed by air vents.
In short, you are working in a new realm. (Non- SUV, Hatchbacks and Experimentation is needed and adequate air venting will tell you when you have it right.
Swez
PS In a sedan, we don't fire at the trunk lid. Here, we target the curvature of the rear trunk and then push bass energy into the cabin via air vents. Finding the apex of angles is a variable one has to experiment with. Keep your options open until you find the best mix over all. (Air vent area is also considered, but optimal bass in the cabin is the goal) Yes?
cybersailor420 on 11/1/2007 21:42:52
Swez, I appreciate your suggestion and will stick with. So I will be putting the subs and ports on approximately the same plane firing into the trunk.
I have been looking up subs, but am having a really hard time picking out a pair. I have also just been really tired from long hours at work...
I calculated a little over 3 cu.ft per sub to work with, and that is a good bit on the safe side, allowing for room to slide the individual boxes in and plenty of room down the middle of the trunk for the air to flow throught the armrest opening in the rear seat.
So with that much room I can fit just about any 12's... You all have seen my previous rides and know I like to have that heavy bass available. Not lookin to spend a fortune on this, but don't want crap. So please feel free to throw out some suggestions. I would love to decide on a pair and start buildin the box, as I just picked up the car yesterday!
Thanx all.
-Ian-
SQLThump on 11/2/2007 05:58:44
How much power are you planning on running here man? You do have quite a bit of space, so thats good, just not sure what range of subs to suggest.....
cybersailor420 on 11/2/2007 08:07:07
roughly somewhere in the 1000ish range... not too sure, maybe more
cybersailor420 on 11/2/2007 08:07:09
roughly somewhere in the 1000ish range... not too sure, maybe more
SQLThump on 11/2/2007 18:50:18
Cool thats what I figured, I'll check some stuff out for you......
For those of you that haven't seen me around before, here are some pictures of previous systems in my Suzuki Grand Vitara, and some other cars I've done minor work on:
http://tufts.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2018197&l=7dea6&id=1701198
http://tufts.facebook.com/album.php?aid=54401&l=68a1c&id=1701198
http://tufts.facebook.com/album.php?aid=54108&l=57c63&id=1701198
But on to the matter at hand. Here are the exterior pictures of my new car (will take interior pics tomorrow hopefully):
http://tufts.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2059699&l=c4162&id=1701198
My first two big issues are figuring out what sub configuration to go with so I can start building the enclosure(s), and getting a remote start installed that will work with my manual transmission.
*Sorry if this post is getting long, but please bear with me*
So my original thought for the subwoofers would be to put 2 12's in a ported box, with the subs and ports firing directly into the back seats. I would seal the front of this box off so that no air would go from the main cab into the trunk. This way I would eliminate most of the trunk rattle, and when by myself I could flip the back seats down and have excellent bass right in the cab.
However, turns out that in this high performance car, the back seats actually have the strut bars built into them, so they don't flip down!!! THINK
All I have is an opening about 8.5" wide and 15" high where the middle 20% of the seat flips down. There are also holes in the rear deck where speakers could go, but they are in the rear doors instead.
Knowing all this, I have decided I will leave that flip down section of the seat unobstructed so I can put snowboards in there during the winter, and not have to buy roof racks. What I am thinking is possibly building a box for each sub (probably a 12") in each rear corner of the trunk.
I have always loved ported boxes, and had thought it would be a great idea to somehow port these boxes into the rear deck. However, I don't know if this would matter if I was leave that part of the flipped down.
I will stop rambling now, and wait for others to hopefully process all this and add their input. I know it's alot, but I wanted to be very clear where I stood on all possible ideas I've had so far.
I do have all the measurements, but figured they are not necessary at this time. I would love to hear all input.
Thanks all for your help! And if anyone knows anything about where to get a remote start system that will be capable of bypassing the immobilizer chip in my key, please let me know!
-Ian-
Replies (21)
gsandha99 on 10/22/2007 17:21:14
Are you just doing the subs? nothing else? no HU or components??? :D.......im a fan of sealed enclosures myself..but you will have mooorree than enough bass!
cybersailor420 on 10/22/2007 19:26:05
no no no, i'm doin it all. but i have everything else pretty much figured out. this is just the biggest decision for me, so i would really love some input.
SQLThump on 10/23/2007 17:40:43
First, let me say that I have been impressed with your work when i first came to CK. Now I must say, your work is some of the sickest looking stuff I have ever seen man! Your Suzuki is Nuts!!!
Ok, now that that is said, nice choice on the WRX. If I was going out to buy a late model sport compact, I would have chose none other except for the blue colered version of the same.
What are you thinking for your components and whatnot? I am assuming that this will be more conservative than the Grand Vitara was correct? Knowing that, and what your goals are with this system would help point out a good bass engine. I am not sure the dimensions of your trunk, but I don't think there is room for ported L7's back there!
Give us the drop, and I will try to help as much as possible. I am not too sure of how much I can though, just looking at your work makes me feel like a chump. J/K, but that is some killer stuff. But I would be more than happy to help as much as possible!
cybersailor420 on 10/23/2007 22:33:02
hahaha! Well thank you very much for your kind compliments. I always assumed my work never quite looked finished (at least in the wiring dept.) but it definitely gets the point accross!
You are quite correct in assuming I will be scaling down on this project. However, I would still like to keep the bass up and as close to 150 as possible. You know, just in case... ;)
Just my quick thoughts on the stereo are
head unit: pioneer premier 980BT
components: Infinity 2-ohm component sets (not sure how many yet... maybe 2 in front, one back)
I have all my 1/0 wiring to go to the back and do the big3. Definitely gonna upgrade the bat, and possibly add one in the back. Haven't looked much for an alternator yet, but did see a 140 amp for about $200 I think. Doesn't help much... But the best thing about this engine is the alternator is right on top!
I think I'm basically set on everything, and can even decide on the subs myself. I just really want someone to give me some solid input on a way to really get some bass out of this car, without the majority of it being stuck in the trunk.
Like I said, if the seats just folded down, I would put the box right about behind them and seal off the trunk from cab. However, all I have is that small 8.5" x 15" opening to get bass through since the seats have the strut bars (or anti-sway bars??) built into them.
So please, comment away!!!
-Ian-
and thanks again SQLThump!
cybersailor420 on 10/23/2007 22:33:04
hahaha! Well thank you very much for your kind compliments. I always assumed my work never quite looked finished (at least in the wiring dept.) but it definitely gets the point accross!
You are quite correct in assuming I will be scaling down on this project. However, I would still like to keep the bass up and as close to 150 as possible. You know, just in case... ;)
Just my quick thoughts on the stereo are
head unit: pioneer premier 980BT
components: Infinity 2-ohm component sets (not sure how many yet... maybe 2 in front, one back)
I have all my 1/0 wiring to go to the back and do the big3. Definitely gonna upgrade the bat, and possibly add one in the back. Haven't looked much for an alternator yet, but did see a 140 amp for about $200 I think. Doesn't help much... But the best thing about this engine is the alternator is right on top!
I think I'm basically set on everything, and can even decide on the subs myself. I just really want someone to give me some solid input on a way to really get some bass out of this car, without the majority of it being stuck in the trunk.
Like I said, if the seats just folded down, I would put the box right about behind them and seal off the trunk from cab. However, all I have is that small 8.5" x 15" opening to get bass through since the seats have the strut bars (or anti-sway bars??) built into them.
So please, comment away!!!
-Ian-
and thanks again SQLThump!
trunkisloud on 10/23/2007 23:39:12
in every trunk application ive ever messed with the subs always sounded better facing the rear....increased cabin gain...more sound....not sure if your car would be different or not...not worth cuttin out the seat in that nice ride just to try it...unless youre very confident in your upholstery skills...
SQLThump on 10/24/2007 02:24:01
Yeah, as trunk states, generally trunks will benefit from having rearward facing subs, in fact, I can't think of one I have worked with that didn't .
If I had to reccommend an "easy" way to get the bass #'s to the 150's, I have seen a single Fosgate Power T1 12" sub push around that number in a little Subaru station wagon. This thing hit so hard that you could see the roof panel excursioning (is that a word?) just as much as the sub did. If I am not mistaken, that was either 3.5 of a whole 5 cubic foot ported box.
It is much easier to put something large in the back of a wagon than a sedan, but I think a single high powered 12 or 15 would probably get you close to the 150's. I have never built anything that loud, the loudest I have probably put together was probably around the low 130's, and that wasn't even my personal vehicle.
I would reccomend putting this single driver on one side of the trunk, facing rewards or diagonally from the drivers side foward corner, to the passenger rear corner. By doing one of these, you give the all that air that your low freqency driver is pumping out something to echo off of, and to get a little bit louder and deeper. Plus, you maintain snowboard room. (But where do you go boarding in the Virgin Islands? I live in Colorado, and lately we barely get enough snow for a decently long season!)
If you aimed it diagonally, and at the right angle, it could be like a nice billairds shot with an impact in one corner hitting another wall, and bouncing right into the center pocker....err ski hole.
It it probably a strut bar going through the rear seats, as a sway bar is generally employed under the car. Don't hate Subaru yet, this stiffens up your frame, and will make a nice addition to any suspension modifacations you may make in the future. Basically one of the rails your vehicle is designed to run on.
As for the Infinity comps, I am not too sure how well they could keep up with a 150DB bass engine. Plus, running more than one set could be more of a hassle than anything if cancellations become an issue. You may want to look at checking something out that is in the combined power range of the pair of comps, but with half the drivers.
Looking foward to how this will turn out, and stick with us while you build it. I would love to observe how this turns out, even if wiring looks a bit unfinished...(you should see my unfinished wiring..............)
swez on 10/24/2007 06:15:44
The Infinity Comps are very strong when powered adequately. In this smaller sports car, try front Comps only initially and if you really miss the rear fill, then work that out later.
FYI: These 2 ohm units cannot be run off most HU amps as they need 4 ohms per channel to keep it clean and not overheat the HU. Ideally, an amp that can deliver a solid 100 watts RMS @ 2 ohms/channel will definitely fill the bill.
That vent opening mentioned is about 127 in^2. It will pass some bass for sure, but it may be a tad small to get the bass monster from the trunk to the cabin w/o more venting area.
Does the rear deck have speaker openings as well? If so, consider leaving the speakers out for more venting area.
Comments?
Swez
SQLThump on 10/24/2007 16:47:29
Swez, he states that the rear deck has holes for speakers, but no speakers, as the rears are mounted in the doors. BONUS!
cybersailor420 on 10/24/2007 20:51:31
yes SQL, you are correct! Unfortunately the rear deck is a soid piece of carpeted particle board. The holes for the speakers are just in the metal frame for the rear deck. So I think i will just carefully cut out holes in the particle board, leaving the carpet in place. Or just take the whole piece out... have to see when I pick up the car next week.
So I'm really lookin for some more specifics on sub configuration. Let's say I want 2 12" subs in individual ported boxes... What do you think about putting a box behind each side of the seat, butted up to the seat and the wheel well. Each sub firing at some angle between directly facing the rear bumper up to facing the opposing rear corner of the trunk. Then, how about having the ports coming up into the rear deck, or should they just fire towards the back of the trunk as well?
This is the kind of input I am hoping some of the pros can help me with. Once I have decided on these issues, I will look up some sub options and do a rough draft box design.
Please don't worry about the rest of the system yet, I will figure that all out when I get there. I really just want to get this box built, but make sure it's exactly what I want.
Thanks again all.
-Ian-
swez on 10/25/2007 20:13:54
OK, got the plan a bit better now. Mids in the rear doors are good and if you need more air vent for bass in the trunk to cabin, then consider cutting out the holes in the rear deck for added vent area.
Tip: May have to modify this plan a tad as a 6x9 hole w/o some kind of physical support under it will make the carpet flutter and stretch later. You may find a matrix of 1/2" holes may work better and have some firm material to glue down the rear deck carpeting to.
The dual sub idea mentioned has some good possibilities. The trick is placement and firing angles to use. As for porting, yes, have seen a few guys port into the rear deck, but here we need longer ports outside the box and flexing type tubes are best used for this method. (Larger diameter ports help too. (4-6" dia) This can be a neat trick, but also requires some very careful port length planning and a neat install. (Avoid "smoke stacks" that stick up well above the rear deck)
Otherwise, just install the ports on the front baffle panel and vent into the cabin as noted earlier.
Swez
cybersailor420 on 10/26/2007 00:34:38
I assume you mean vent into the trunk in that last sentence?
I agree that would be easier, but I am pretty good with calculating and building all that. I feel it is easily within in my realm.
Now, if you don't think it will make a difference in sound, then I won't bother. But otherwise I'm figuring it would be good to have the ports go through the back deck, firing directly into the cabin. This way, that small opening in the middle of the rear seat is available to transfer as much sound as possible from the subs themselves firing in the the trunk.
Let me know if this reason sounds correct to you. And thank you Swez for joining in. I'd been waiting for some higher caliber information to make a more definite decision.
I will start looking up subs hopefully tomorrow and report back with some ideas. I do have a fair amount of trunk space for a sedan, so it shouldn't be too hard to find subs with box specs that will fit.
-Ian-
SQLThump on 10/26/2007 01:34:22
I honestly don't think that porting through the rear deck will really help much. I have run a port through a rear deck before, and it had good SPL, but it was a bandpass box, and port noise was an issure as well. Plus on top of that, the port tuning was off due to the added length to go from the box to the rear deck. It did damn near completely eliminate any rattling from the vehicle though. The only thing that vibrated was the side trim.
These issues could be corrected with your paticular install, but when I put the same enclosure in a different vehicle, it hit waay harder with the trunk to echo off of.
Personally, I think that aligning the center of the port as closely as possible with the center of the sub would be a better way to go about doing this, as it will keep the firing angle of the subs to the trunk more consistant, as oppossed to sending bass waves in different directions through the cabin. I am not too sure of the specifics, but that could make things nasty.
Anybody else got another opinion for this gentleman?
swez on 10/26/2007 06:28:17
Remember that bass waves are very long and have a wide dispersion pattern inside a vehicle. (Almost omnidirectional) Mids are semi-narrow and tweeters are very narrow in dispersion patterns. (Mids say 60-70 degrees, Tweeters are more like 30 degrees)
Looking at the port issues mentioned, remember the port is a tuning device. The output frequency is narrow and tuned to a target frequency range. Say we tune the port to about 30 Hz. We get plenty of SPL through the port at about 30 - 45 Hz. Above that, the cone is the main source of SPL and the port does almost nothing above ~50 Hz.
We can eliminate port noise by using larger ports as well. (A 3.5" - 5.0" port diameter will not offer much port noise if the box and port designs are well matched. A shorter 2" diameter port will probably give noise problems, so we just go larger in port diameter and it needs to be longer as well.
Swez
PS Started a new job this month and it's an early get up and long hours. When I finish a shift, I'm pretty well shot physically and mentally. So, during the week, may post a bit before going to work and on weekends, but not so much in the evenings as before. Hopefully, this old body will adjust in time and get used to the rigors and adapt. (After a full day, am so sore and pooped out, I just grab a light meal, take some Motrin and go to bed early)
Hey fellas, don't get old... the brain power is better from experience and such, but the body has limits and will rebel. Stay in shape physically and mentally and it will go easier later. SMILE
cybersailor420 on 10/26/2007 12:40:35
Yea, I had thought about what you are saying about only getting a limited bandpass frequency throught the port into the cab. As you've seen from my other cars, I really just like loud bass, and like to show it off from time to time.
I am just so used to knowing what I'm doing with cars like suvs, hatchbacks, and wagons, that it's hard for me to make a decision not knowing what the best course of action is.
Swez, do you think I will notice any significant differences between porting through the rear deck or just firing on the same plane as the subs in the trunk?
If I were to port into the trunk, should have the ports and subs firing in different directions. For example, I know in an SUV, it is normally ideal to fire the subs up and the ports back...
And do you think the subs should fire straight towards the bumper, or is firing them towards opposing corners of the trunk sound good?
I hate to ask so many questions, but I just haven't had much experience with enclosed trunks... Almost every box I've done in this case has had the subs firing directly into the cab with the back seats folded down...
Thanks again!!
-Ian-
swez on 10/26/2007 19:38:29
Good questions and each vehicle has its own quirks and characteristics to deal with.
Frankly, porting into the trunk makes the most sense here. That nets a wider band of bass in the trunk. The trick here, is getting all that, (full 1-3/4 octaves of bass) into the cabin and well balanced too. This is where the air vent issues come into play.
Initially, I would do ported boxes and located the apex where the bass is strong and powerful in the trunk. Once this parameter is defined, then getting that into the cabin would be the next step.
As forport location, I'd opt for the ports/vents on the front bafflle panel and let the trunk dictate the rest. Once that is solved, then getting enough bass energy into the main cabin can be addressed by air vents.
In short, you are working in a new realm. (Non- SUV, Hatchbacks and Experimentation is needed and adequate air venting will tell you when you have it right.
Swez
PS In a sedan, we don't fire at the trunk lid. Here, we target the curvature of the rear trunk and then push bass energy into the cabin via air vents. Finding the apex of angles is a variable one has to experiment with. Keep your options open until you find the best mix over all. (Air vent area is also considered, but optimal bass in the cabin is the goal) Yes?
cybersailor420 on 11/1/2007 21:42:52
Swez, I appreciate your suggestion and will stick with. So I will be putting the subs and ports on approximately the same plane firing into the trunk.
I have been looking up subs, but am having a really hard time picking out a pair. I have also just been really tired from long hours at work...
I calculated a little over 3 cu.ft per sub to work with, and that is a good bit on the safe side, allowing for room to slide the individual boxes in and plenty of room down the middle of the trunk for the air to flow throught the armrest opening in the rear seat.
So with that much room I can fit just about any 12's... You all have seen my previous rides and know I like to have that heavy bass available. Not lookin to spend a fortune on this, but don't want crap. So please feel free to throw out some suggestions. I would love to decide on a pair and start buildin the box, as I just picked up the car yesterday!
Thanx all.
-Ian-
SQLThump on 11/2/2007 05:58:44
How much power are you planning on running here man? You do have quite a bit of space, so thats good, just not sure what range of subs to suggest.....
cybersailor420 on 11/2/2007 08:07:07
roughly somewhere in the 1000ish range... not too sure, maybe more
cybersailor420 on 11/2/2007 08:07:09
roughly somewhere in the 1000ish range... not too sure, maybe more
SQLThump on 11/2/2007 18:50:18
Cool thats what I figured, I'll check some stuff out for you......
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