hey guys. So i got a sub amp and 4 channel soundstream mc 245 hooked up proffessionaly as well as a 1.5 cap. However, i still get dimming...before this i had only the sub and sub amp hooked up and there was little dimming, and now the guy hooked up both amps to the cap when i thought he was gonna use a dist. block and wire only the sub amp to the cap. I think because he hooked up both amps to the cap that this is the reason i still get dimming. I thought that a 4 channel 35 x 4 wouldnt need a cap anyways...I need help guys, in addition, my sub amp shut off on me for hte first time yesterday! yes, i was cranking it,...but still.. i think that it is related to the way the cap is wired to both amps...help please.
Replies (19)
trunkisloud on 10/9/2007 14:39:42
as anyone on here would say...caps are worthless unless you like audio jewelry...other than that they dont really work...you need to do the "big 3" upgrade" and maybe even an altenator upgrade..lets see...what is the model # of the sub amp...and model number of the sub.....what is the fuse value of the amps...meaning how many fuses are on each amp and what size fuses are they....then tell us what kind of car you have so maybe we can determine the altenator output so we can see if you are exceeding the output by running these amps...
here is a link to help you learn about "the big 3" upgrade
http://www.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/312025/page/1#Post312025
gsandha99 on 10/9/2007 15:09:18
thanks trunkisloud....but i really dont think im drawing that much to need an alternator upgrade. I have a Kenwood KAC 8101D for the sub and a soundstream mc 245 34x4 running my coaxials. the said he was gonna use a dist block..but instead just wired everything to the cap. Meaning.. the 4 awg from the batt to the cap and the two 8awg coming off cap to each of the amps....i wonder if running only the sub off the cap will help. The 4 channel amp shouldnt need a cap..right? and how much do you think a big 3 upgrade would cost..i think i might just tell him to do that.
gsandha99 on 10/9/2007 15:10:30
oh and, fully loaded honda crv 2005 is what i got with a JVC HU. Type S 10" sub in sealed box. 4 JBL coaxials. not sure what hte fuse sizes are on the stuff
trunkisloud on 10/9/2007 16:47:14
the soundstream amp is capable of drawing 30 amps though not continuously ...same is true for the kenwood except its capable of drawing 40 amps...70 amps gone there....you should save at least 60 amps for your normal vehicle operation .....thats 130 amps....this particular ride has a 90 amp alt ..so you actually could be starving the system when playing at decent volume .....the big 3 can be done pretty cheap....in some cases 4awg wire is applied and you can do it yourself pretty cheap if you are inclined to do so...im thinking an audio shop may charge a bit much...theres a few guys on here that have worked this market so they may be able to tell you what the going rate for that is....if that doesnt work..then you just may need a bigger alt.
gsandha99 on 10/9/2007 17:04:03
hmm..thanks again...i think im gonna get the Big three done and not worry so much about how the cap is wired...what do you think? Also, the 4 channel amp is wired to the original speaker wires behind the Head Unit. I 2 shops if this was ok, and they both agreed that my amp wasnt pumping out enough to really need to switch to a thicker guage speaker wire and run it straight from amp to speakers?...what do you think? man, i really didnt think that my puny system was gonna draw so much power...
trunkisloud on 10/9/2007 17:11:56
the 4 channel will probably ok like that depending on what kinda nest of wires you got under there....being sure that they are secure and will not short againts other wires.....
gsandha99 on 10/9/2007 17:59:49
Yea, as long as there is no chance of the speaker wires melting or something on me...its fine....alrighty, im gonna tell that jackass to give me a big 3 baby.....i hate dimming lights...and hopefully that will stop any chance of amp shutting off from constant loud usage. anyways..ill ask him and see what he says...any other advice/opinions are greatly appreciated.
gsandha99 on 10/9/2007 18:37:21
Will i need a fuse for my big 3 addition? and where?
trunkisloud on 10/9/2007 18:47:16
you should fuse the wire between the alt and the battery....perhaps 20-30 amps larger than the rated output of the alt i believe...might wanna dig a little deeper on that ...
gsandha99 on 10/9/2007 20:55:02
Its all good....i just booked an appt to get it done...its only gonna be 60 bucks..or around there...so...i can afford the peace of mind....although the guy said a bigger battery would work better...but im gonna do this first...thanks for all your help...i will post what the difference is..
swez on 10/9/2007 23:13:07
The Cap is psudo-effective on your sub amp only. The full range amp does not need a CAP.
The Big 3 upgrade may help, but with a strong sub amp, proper gain and bass boost adjustments are mission critical. If that is done correctly, the sub amp will not shut down.
Finally, most small import cars benefit most from a "dedicated BAT" to feed the sub amp or a larger CCA rated main only. If the Big 3 and Cap does not cut it, come back and give us your details. We can help, but the CAP may be practically useless in this case. As Truck said... "Caps are basically "auto jewlery". Great for looks, but the net effect is not always as advertised.
Comments?
Swez
cplkittle on 10/10/2007 00:34:30
looks like you have everything under controll.. I just wanted to comment on the cap wiring since your question about that was not directly adressed.
When installing a capacitor, all amplifiers should be on the other side of the cap than the battery. If you used distribution blocks and split your power one way to the 4 channel, and the other way to the cap then the sub amp, you would more than likely get some type of interference. I really can't explain why, but I have troubleshooted engine whine in these cases and it went away after rewiring both amps to the cap.
Most of the time, the capacitor terminals are used as a distribution block. This is fine unless you wish to fuse each amplifier seperately after the capacitor, then a fused distribution can be used. Amplifiers with fuses on the amp itself do not need a secondary fuse on the power wire (besides the one at the battery for the main power line). Some amplifiers like the JL slash series do not have onboard fuses and need to be fused independently.
It will not hurt anything to put extra fuses on them, most of the time that is for eye candy though. I used a SHDA-2
http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/1557827/vpcsid/0/SFV/30046
simply because it had the digital readout and showed real time amperage draw for each amplifier.
As for the alternator, it can only help.. Excess draw on an amplifier can shorten its life. Ask your local parts store if there is a slightly larger model available for your vehicle. In some cases, you can get the stock 90A or a beefier 115A for the same vehicle. That extra 25 amps can help out alot.
gsandha99 on 10/10/2007 02:34:21
hey guys..thanks for the posts....i am gonna go with the big 3 on friday...my amp is only 200 rms sub and 35x4 for the components so its not a huge draw but nonetheless....if that doesnt work, the installer suggested a larger battery...is that what is meant by "dedicated BAT"? the dimming really isnt that bad..its just a piss off factor for me...and this type S doesnt seem to be enough bass...will a JL w2 or w3 be better you guys think? id rather not switch the amp since its already causing dimming..but w/e...and the installer says 8 awg for the big 3 is enough as the quality of the new wires is also better than stock..and he will also fully replace the stock wires....all for 60 bucks....so not bad...what do you guys think?
swez on 10/10/2007 06:32:20
Looked up the power specs on this amp and noted the following:
200 watt RMS @ 4 ohms
400 watt RMS @ 2 ohms
500 watt RMS @ 1 ohm
This amp is not a lightweight amp at 1 or 2 ohm loads. It can draw over 30A's of current. The 4 channel is a modest 10-12A's at full power. That's not a huge current hogging system, but in a small import w/ a small electrical package, long, deep bass hits are going to pull more current then the system can handle w/o some additional help.
The "dedicated battery" idea is used to store large amounts of reserve power for the sub amp. It has much more reserve capacity than any size Cap on the market. Here, we place the 2nd battery near the sub amp and power this off the secondary BAT. The 4 channel is modest and can be powered off the main starter battery.
The Big 3 upgrade helps maximize current distribution to all electrical components in the car. It does this with larger gage wires and lower resistance in the cables. Just add these to the stock factory cables and you're good to go.
BTW, which sub model are you using here now? (Type S Alpine?) Is it the Dual Voice Coil version SWE or SWS model?
Comments?
Swez
gsandha99 on 10/10/2007 11:44:27
Hey guys..thanks swez...the sub is the Single voice coil type S 10 inch....although it doesnt seem to be enough for me...thats why i was thinking JL w2 or w3...Or should i just look at getting a 2/1 ohm sub? Its in a sealed box...and i like that sound...so i would keep my current enclosure.
Also, I dont think i want to get in too deep with a second battery, however, i was suggested to switch to a yellow top...I think i will do it step by step. In otherwords, get the big 3 done, and see how it is from there. I was looking at the engine myself, and i could see 2 wires running from the negative of the battery. One to the chassis and the other to what seemed like the engine block? thus, i know where the positive goes to the alternator and i know where the negative goes to the chassis...but in the big 3, there is supposed to be an engine block to chassis wire too, no? or am i just mixed up?
cplkittle on 10/10/2007 20:04:19
The engine block to chassis is the most important wire in the upgrade. Since the alternator grounds directly through the mount to the engine, the engine has to be grounded to the chassis.
Since you have one wire from the battery to the chassis, and one to the engine block, essentially the engine block is grounded to the chassis via the negative battery post.
The way I always did the big 3 was to ground the engine block and the battery to the same spot on the chassis.
gsandha99 on 10/10/2007 20:06:56
in other words, a direct ground from block to chassis which does not connect to negative battery terminal in the middle...?
cplkittle on 10/10/2007 20:15:32
It really does not matter as long as all 3 (engine, chassis, and negative terminal) are connected in some manner.
gsandha99 on 10/10/2007 20:33:57
sounds good...
Replies (19)
trunkisloud on 10/9/2007 14:39:42
as anyone on here would say...caps are worthless unless you like audio jewelry...other than that they dont really work...you need to do the "big 3" upgrade" and maybe even an altenator upgrade..lets see...what is the model # of the sub amp...and model number of the sub.....what is the fuse value of the amps...meaning how many fuses are on each amp and what size fuses are they....then tell us what kind of car you have so maybe we can determine the altenator output so we can see if you are exceeding the output by running these amps...
here is a link to help you learn about "the big 3" upgrade
http://www.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/312025/page/1#Post312025
gsandha99 on 10/9/2007 15:09:18
thanks trunkisloud....but i really dont think im drawing that much to need an alternator upgrade. I have a Kenwood KAC 8101D for the sub and a soundstream mc 245 34x4 running my coaxials. the said he was gonna use a dist block..but instead just wired everything to the cap. Meaning.. the 4 awg from the batt to the cap and the two 8awg coming off cap to each of the amps....i wonder if running only the sub off the cap will help. The 4 channel amp shouldnt need a cap..right? and how much do you think a big 3 upgrade would cost..i think i might just tell him to do that.
gsandha99 on 10/9/2007 15:10:30
oh and, fully loaded honda crv 2005 is what i got with a JVC HU. Type S 10" sub in sealed box. 4 JBL coaxials. not sure what hte fuse sizes are on the stuff
trunkisloud on 10/9/2007 16:47:14
the soundstream amp is capable of drawing 30 amps though not continuously ...same is true for the kenwood except its capable of drawing 40 amps...70 amps gone there....you should save at least 60 amps for your normal vehicle operation .....thats 130 amps....this particular ride has a 90 amp alt ..so you actually could be starving the system when playing at decent volume .....the big 3 can be done pretty cheap....in some cases 4awg wire is applied and you can do it yourself pretty cheap if you are inclined to do so...im thinking an audio shop may charge a bit much...theres a few guys on here that have worked this market so they may be able to tell you what the going rate for that is....if that doesnt work..then you just may need a bigger alt.
gsandha99 on 10/9/2007 17:04:03
hmm..thanks again...i think im gonna get the Big three done and not worry so much about how the cap is wired...what do you think? Also, the 4 channel amp is wired to the original speaker wires behind the Head Unit. I 2 shops if this was ok, and they both agreed that my amp wasnt pumping out enough to really need to switch to a thicker guage speaker wire and run it straight from amp to speakers?...what do you think? man, i really didnt think that my puny system was gonna draw so much power...
trunkisloud on 10/9/2007 17:11:56
the 4 channel will probably ok like that depending on what kinda nest of wires you got under there....being sure that they are secure and will not short againts other wires.....
gsandha99 on 10/9/2007 17:59:49
Yea, as long as there is no chance of the speaker wires melting or something on me...its fine....alrighty, im gonna tell that jackass to give me a big 3 baby.....i hate dimming lights...and hopefully that will stop any chance of amp shutting off from constant loud usage. anyways..ill ask him and see what he says...any other advice/opinions are greatly appreciated.
gsandha99 on 10/9/2007 18:37:21
Will i need a fuse for my big 3 addition? and where?
trunkisloud on 10/9/2007 18:47:16
you should fuse the wire between the alt and the battery....perhaps 20-30 amps larger than the rated output of the alt i believe...might wanna dig a little deeper on that ...
gsandha99 on 10/9/2007 20:55:02
Its all good....i just booked an appt to get it done...its only gonna be 60 bucks..or around there...so...i can afford the peace of mind....although the guy said a bigger battery would work better...but im gonna do this first...thanks for all your help...i will post what the difference is..
swez on 10/9/2007 23:13:07
The Cap is psudo-effective on your sub amp only. The full range amp does not need a CAP.
The Big 3 upgrade may help, but with a strong sub amp, proper gain and bass boost adjustments are mission critical. If that is done correctly, the sub amp will not shut down.
Finally, most small import cars benefit most from a "dedicated BAT" to feed the sub amp or a larger CCA rated main only. If the Big 3 and Cap does not cut it, come back and give us your details. We can help, but the CAP may be practically useless in this case. As Truck said... "Caps are basically "auto jewlery". Great for looks, but the net effect is not always as advertised.
Comments?
Swez
cplkittle on 10/10/2007 00:34:30
looks like you have everything under controll.. I just wanted to comment on the cap wiring since your question about that was not directly adressed.
When installing a capacitor, all amplifiers should be on the other side of the cap than the battery. If you used distribution blocks and split your power one way to the 4 channel, and the other way to the cap then the sub amp, you would more than likely get some type of interference. I really can't explain why, but I have troubleshooted engine whine in these cases and it went away after rewiring both amps to the cap.
Most of the time, the capacitor terminals are used as a distribution block. This is fine unless you wish to fuse each amplifier seperately after the capacitor, then a fused distribution can be used. Amplifiers with fuses on the amp itself do not need a secondary fuse on the power wire (besides the one at the battery for the main power line). Some amplifiers like the JL slash series do not have onboard fuses and need to be fused independently.
It will not hurt anything to put extra fuses on them, most of the time that is for eye candy though. I used a SHDA-2
http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/1557827/vpcsid/0/SFV/30046
simply because it had the digital readout and showed real time amperage draw for each amplifier.
As for the alternator, it can only help.. Excess draw on an amplifier can shorten its life. Ask your local parts store if there is a slightly larger model available for your vehicle. In some cases, you can get the stock 90A or a beefier 115A for the same vehicle. That extra 25 amps can help out alot.
gsandha99 on 10/10/2007 02:34:21
hey guys..thanks for the posts....i am gonna go with the big 3 on friday...my amp is only 200 rms sub and 35x4 for the components so its not a huge draw but nonetheless....if that doesnt work, the installer suggested a larger battery...is that what is meant by "dedicated BAT"? the dimming really isnt that bad..its just a piss off factor for me...and this type S doesnt seem to be enough bass...will a JL w2 or w3 be better you guys think? id rather not switch the amp since its already causing dimming..but w/e...and the installer says 8 awg for the big 3 is enough as the quality of the new wires is also better than stock..and he will also fully replace the stock wires....all for 60 bucks....so not bad...what do you guys think?
swez on 10/10/2007 06:32:20
Looked up the power specs on this amp and noted the following:
200 watt RMS @ 4 ohms
400 watt RMS @ 2 ohms
500 watt RMS @ 1 ohm
This amp is not a lightweight amp at 1 or 2 ohm loads. It can draw over 30A's of current. The 4 channel is a modest 10-12A's at full power. That's not a huge current hogging system, but in a small import w/ a small electrical package, long, deep bass hits are going to pull more current then the system can handle w/o some additional help.
The "dedicated battery" idea is used to store large amounts of reserve power for the sub amp. It has much more reserve capacity than any size Cap on the market. Here, we place the 2nd battery near the sub amp and power this off the secondary BAT. The 4 channel is modest and can be powered off the main starter battery.
The Big 3 upgrade helps maximize current distribution to all electrical components in the car. It does this with larger gage wires and lower resistance in the cables. Just add these to the stock factory cables and you're good to go.
BTW, which sub model are you using here now? (Type S Alpine?) Is it the Dual Voice Coil version SWE or SWS model?
Comments?
Swez
gsandha99 on 10/10/2007 11:44:27
Hey guys..thanks swez...the sub is the Single voice coil type S 10 inch....although it doesnt seem to be enough for me...thats why i was thinking JL w2 or w3...Or should i just look at getting a 2/1 ohm sub? Its in a sealed box...and i like that sound...so i would keep my current enclosure.
Also, I dont think i want to get in too deep with a second battery, however, i was suggested to switch to a yellow top...I think i will do it step by step. In otherwords, get the big 3 done, and see how it is from there. I was looking at the engine myself, and i could see 2 wires running from the negative of the battery. One to the chassis and the other to what seemed like the engine block? thus, i know where the positive goes to the alternator and i know where the negative goes to the chassis...but in the big 3, there is supposed to be an engine block to chassis wire too, no? or am i just mixed up?
cplkittle on 10/10/2007 20:04:19
The engine block to chassis is the most important wire in the upgrade. Since the alternator grounds directly through the mount to the engine, the engine has to be grounded to the chassis.
Since you have one wire from the battery to the chassis, and one to the engine block, essentially the engine block is grounded to the chassis via the negative battery post.
The way I always did the big 3 was to ground the engine block and the battery to the same spot on the chassis.
gsandha99 on 10/10/2007 20:06:56
in other words, a direct ground from block to chassis which does not connect to negative battery terminal in the middle...?
cplkittle on 10/10/2007 20:15:32
It really does not matter as long as all 3 (engine, chassis, and negative terminal) are connected in some manner.
gsandha99 on 10/10/2007 20:33:57
sounds good...
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