I am an acoustic engineer at Six Flags Discovery Kingdom and we're brainstorming ideas on possibly running sound on each float of the Character parade. each float is a big trailer being pulled by an ATV.
the possibilities we have come up with are-
battery/HU/Car Amp/PA speakers
OR
battery/inverter(converter?)/ to PA amp/ to speakers
either way it will be one or two batteries without an alt that will be charge nightly. the parade is only 15mins a day.
1) how would YOU set it up?
and
2) Pros/Cons of each setup.
thanx
-Drew
Replies (10)
swez on 08/26/2007 20:59:19
Great idea and go with battery systems and 12 volts. Converters are OK, but we have losses to deal with there and why complicate the matters by using both AC and DC based gear?
The key issue is battery power needed to run the vehicles and a separate power source for the gear used. Also, 12 volt systems are safe and easy to work with. When we use 120 volts AC power, and it's remote, that's a whole other ball of wax.
Thought... is there room for a small Generator pack to run the system and drive motors? A small generator that can power the battery packs might make sense if it can be hidden and well dampened against noise and such.
More brainstorming to consider, but stick to 12 volt DC systems when possible.
Comments?
Swez
newB on 08/26/2007 23:23:52
well i really am looking for why running the mobile gear would be better. obviously the simpliciy is a plus, but my boss is bent on the idea that if he goes with car audio stuff (a bit cheaper) off PA speakers it will be less quality than though the converter.
so im looking for WHY it would be better to run a straight 12v system.
we cant run a generator beause its a parade float wtih not much room, and all the music/noise is kept to a moderate, a generator would be much to loud.
-Drew
Victor on 08/27/2007 00:36:40
15 mins of music at moderate volumes can be easily handled by a couple of stand alone fully charged batteries....
HU, a 50wrms x 4ch amp. with 2 sets of 6x9"s can do the trick here. if you are not looking for louder volumes... and if you are , then something can be done with the enclosure for the 6x9"s . say a ported encl or a horn design for longer throw.
and if u need more then probably add another battery and another amp with couple of more sets of 6 x 9".....
Victor....
newB on 08/27/2007 01:03:09
we are using park owned JBL speakers
(8ohm, horn on top woofer on bottom internally crossed over)
i was thinking four PA speakers wired in parellel to a 2ohm load on say a 2ch bridged Class A/B amp that does around 1k at 2ohm
ive heard these types of PA speakers i highly efficient and only need 250-300 watts.
(confirm?)
-Drew
swez on 08/27/2007 02:14:12
Yes, JBL PA monitors are often very high efficientcy. (High 90's dB SPL @ 1w/1m)
Quote: "but my boss is bent on the idea that if he goes with car audio stuff (a bit cheaper) off PA speakers it will be less quality than though the converter."
Hum, your boss is The Boss and even though his reasoning is a bit off, he's still The Boss. Can you arrange a prototype demo? Meaning, assemble a 12 volt system for him and also a 120 volt AC converter system for him as well and note all the costs of materials? Let him judge the merits for himself?
Do you know the model #'s, (Specs) of the JBL speakers you will be working with? Am thinking scale here as JBL makes both large and small monitor formats for various applications. Have worked with several types in nightclubs and retail environs and depending on the scale of the enclosures used, it may make sense to compare both amping system configurations.
In some ways, the 120 VAC amp system offers better efficiencies. Many newer amps are not power hogging Class A/B systems. These newer amps can generate a lot of watts and only draw 10 - 15A's of current. (That's a big plus over 12 volt system in terms of power consumption)
Most Pro amps are 4-16 ohm compatible too. So the number of speakers used and wiring configurations are pretty straight forward too.
The big difference is the input section on these amps. Some offer 1/4" phone jack and Balanced Line, (XLR) inputs. Others only offer Balanced Line inputs. There are few 12 volt HU's that offer Balanced Line outputs.
As I dig deeper into the old noggin' there are a variety of things to consider as one choses the most effective method. Knowing more about what gear you have at your disposal might help. (Amplifiers and speakers used in the park now)
Say more as this plan needs some addtional considerations before pushing one plan over another.
Swez
newB on 08/27/2007 02:39:49
i dont know the model of the JBLs we have on hand
most of it will be ordered. as far as i know we only have four PAs for our disposal, so everything would be ordered.
i think i will go with the demo. its appealing for some reason- because i think it will work. the only problem would be getting my hands on a converter for 12v to 120v (and ac/dc switch i believe)
if i had that, it would be fairly easy to test.
ahahahaha
thanx swez
you always come through for me
-Drew
swez on 08/27/2007 04:05:02
Hehe, this might be a useful DC/AC power inverter to consider:
Here, one needs to calculate the maximum current draw of all AC devices. We figure out the needed wattage based on Ohm's Law:
Voltage x Current = Wattage (E x I = P)
To choose the proper size Converter, we need to know the max power draw of the amplifier used. Say the amp is 120 VAC and draws 12.5A's at full power. (120 x 12.5 = 1500 Watts consumed) Most Inverters are about 90% eff.
Think it over, ask your boss for a budget number to do your prototypes and then commence working out a demo package for test purposes.
FYI: You may find yourself limited to a min of 4 ohms per channel in 120 VAC amplifiers. In a strong 2 channel amp, the price of the amp and Inverter will be notably higher than a large capacity 12 volt battery pack and 12 volts amplifiers. For this application, don't even consider home based amplifiers as they are not designed to take the elements and reliablilty issues are worth the extra cost. (Go Pro gear when doing outdoor sound)
Here, an industrial battery pack would be a good option or dual battery "Deep Cycle" bats. (1000 + CCA rated) makes sense, depending on the drive motor(s) current draw for each float.
There are probably many Pros/Cons to both AC and DC powered systems and cost per unit may or may not be a big consideration. The most power efficient system would probably be AC based amplifiers.
However, if there is enough battery power available and they are only used for a short period of time at power, DC systems have the cost advantage w/o sacrificing sound quality either.
Swez
PS Care to hire a Prototype Consultant on this project? Use your hands to fabricate the system while I guide you through the designs, materials/hardware lists and provide configuration details. This could be profitable to all parties involved. THINK it over.... my advice is free here, but it would be good to get paid for a project of this magnitude.
newB on 08/27/2007 11:12:36
i will get a hold of him and get further details on the entire project, we only discussed it for a couple minutes, but i plan on giving him both options and hopefully get together some tests.
i will aslo figure out any other requirements i may have missed yesterday
-Drew
swez on 08/29/2007 09:48:36
Any news from the boss on this plan?
Swez
ttocs on 08/29/2007 18:52:33
how loud does this need to be? I am imagine it will not be a quiet affair with children and parent yelling. JBL makes some good car gear if you can swing discounts for them. How many speakers are you planning on driving?
Any chance you can help with some tickets in cali?
the possibilities we have come up with are-
battery/HU/Car Amp/PA speakers
OR
battery/inverter(converter?)/ to PA amp/ to speakers
either way it will be one or two batteries without an alt that will be charge nightly. the parade is only 15mins a day.
1) how would YOU set it up?
and
2) Pros/Cons of each setup.
thanx
-Drew
Replies (10)
swez on 08/26/2007 20:59:19
Great idea and go with battery systems and 12 volts. Converters are OK, but we have losses to deal with there and why complicate the matters by using both AC and DC based gear?
The key issue is battery power needed to run the vehicles and a separate power source for the gear used. Also, 12 volt systems are safe and easy to work with. When we use 120 volts AC power, and it's remote, that's a whole other ball of wax.
Thought... is there room for a small Generator pack to run the system and drive motors? A small generator that can power the battery packs might make sense if it can be hidden and well dampened against noise and such.
More brainstorming to consider, but stick to 12 volt DC systems when possible.
Comments?
Swez
newB on 08/26/2007 23:23:52
well i really am looking for why running the mobile gear would be better. obviously the simpliciy is a plus, but my boss is bent on the idea that if he goes with car audio stuff (a bit cheaper) off PA speakers it will be less quality than though the converter.
so im looking for WHY it would be better to run a straight 12v system.
we cant run a generator beause its a parade float wtih not much room, and all the music/noise is kept to a moderate, a generator would be much to loud.
-Drew
Victor on 08/27/2007 00:36:40
15 mins of music at moderate volumes can be easily handled by a couple of stand alone fully charged batteries....
HU, a 50wrms x 4ch amp. with 2 sets of 6x9"s can do the trick here. if you are not looking for louder volumes... and if you are , then something can be done with the enclosure for the 6x9"s . say a ported encl or a horn design for longer throw.
and if u need more then probably add another battery and another amp with couple of more sets of 6 x 9".....
Victor....
newB on 08/27/2007 01:03:09
we are using park owned JBL speakers
(8ohm, horn on top woofer on bottom internally crossed over)
i was thinking four PA speakers wired in parellel to a 2ohm load on say a 2ch bridged Class A/B amp that does around 1k at 2ohm
ive heard these types of PA speakers i highly efficient and only need 250-300 watts.
(confirm?)
-Drew
swez on 08/27/2007 02:14:12
Yes, JBL PA monitors are often very high efficientcy. (High 90's dB SPL @ 1w/1m)
Quote: "but my boss is bent on the idea that if he goes with car audio stuff (a bit cheaper) off PA speakers it will be less quality than though the converter."
Hum, your boss is The Boss and even though his reasoning is a bit off, he's still The Boss. Can you arrange a prototype demo? Meaning, assemble a 12 volt system for him and also a 120 volt AC converter system for him as well and note all the costs of materials? Let him judge the merits for himself?
Do you know the model #'s, (Specs) of the JBL speakers you will be working with? Am thinking scale here as JBL makes both large and small monitor formats for various applications. Have worked with several types in nightclubs and retail environs and depending on the scale of the enclosures used, it may make sense to compare both amping system configurations.
In some ways, the 120 VAC amp system offers better efficiencies. Many newer amps are not power hogging Class A/B systems. These newer amps can generate a lot of watts and only draw 10 - 15A's of current. (That's a big plus over 12 volt system in terms of power consumption)
Most Pro amps are 4-16 ohm compatible too. So the number of speakers used and wiring configurations are pretty straight forward too.
The big difference is the input section on these amps. Some offer 1/4" phone jack and Balanced Line, (XLR) inputs. Others only offer Balanced Line inputs. There are few 12 volt HU's that offer Balanced Line outputs.
As I dig deeper into the old noggin' there are a variety of things to consider as one choses the most effective method. Knowing more about what gear you have at your disposal might help. (Amplifiers and speakers used in the park now)
Say more as this plan needs some addtional considerations before pushing one plan over another.
Swez
newB on 08/27/2007 02:39:49
i dont know the model of the JBLs we have on hand
most of it will be ordered. as far as i know we only have four PAs for our disposal, so everything would be ordered.
i think i will go with the demo. its appealing for some reason- because i think it will work. the only problem would be getting my hands on a converter for 12v to 120v (and ac/dc switch i believe)
if i had that, it would be fairly easy to test.
ahahahaha
thanx swez
you always come through for me
-Drew
swez on 08/27/2007 04:05:02
Hehe, this might be a useful DC/AC power inverter to consider:
Here, one needs to calculate the maximum current draw of all AC devices. We figure out the needed wattage based on Ohm's Law:
Voltage x Current = Wattage (E x I = P)
To choose the proper size Converter, we need to know the max power draw of the amplifier used. Say the amp is 120 VAC and draws 12.5A's at full power. (120 x 12.5 = 1500 Watts consumed) Most Inverters are about 90% eff.
Think it over, ask your boss for a budget number to do your prototypes and then commence working out a demo package for test purposes.
FYI: You may find yourself limited to a min of 4 ohms per channel in 120 VAC amplifiers. In a strong 2 channel amp, the price of the amp and Inverter will be notably higher than a large capacity 12 volt battery pack and 12 volts amplifiers. For this application, don't even consider home based amplifiers as they are not designed to take the elements and reliablilty issues are worth the extra cost. (Go Pro gear when doing outdoor sound)
Here, an industrial battery pack would be a good option or dual battery "Deep Cycle" bats. (1000 + CCA rated) makes sense, depending on the drive motor(s) current draw for each float.
There are probably many Pros/Cons to both AC and DC powered systems and cost per unit may or may not be a big consideration. The most power efficient system would probably be AC based amplifiers.
However, if there is enough battery power available and they are only used for a short period of time at power, DC systems have the cost advantage w/o sacrificing sound quality either.
Swez
PS Care to hire a Prototype Consultant on this project? Use your hands to fabricate the system while I guide you through the designs, materials/hardware lists and provide configuration details. This could be profitable to all parties involved. THINK it over.... my advice is free here, but it would be good to get paid for a project of this magnitude.
newB on 08/27/2007 11:12:36
i will get a hold of him and get further details on the entire project, we only discussed it for a couple minutes, but i plan on giving him both options and hopefully get together some tests.
i will aslo figure out any other requirements i may have missed yesterday
-Drew
swez on 08/29/2007 09:48:36
Any news from the boss on this plan?
Swez
ttocs on 08/29/2007 18:52:33
how loud does this need to be? I am imagine it will not be a quiet affair with children and parent yelling. JBL makes some good car gear if you can swing discounts for them. How many speakers are you planning on driving?
Any chance you can help with some tickets in cali?
Copyright ClubKnowledge 2009 * All Rights Reserved
