I'm making a few assumptions (yeah, I know).
A speaker with more cone area will provide more volume (because it can move more air), if wattage, impedance, & sensitivity are roughly equal, correct?
If the above is correct, are there any large (10"-18") full range speakers available that don't require massive amounts of wattage?
Replies (11)
ttocs on 08/26/2007 15:06:44
well yes and no... Think of the speaker as a motor. Now the motor in a VW is small as it does not need to be right? Think of this like a 8 or maybe a 10" sub. Now take that motor out and put it in a suburban(the 15-18" woofer). The suburban can move more air because it is bigger, but when it is driven by the same amount of power as the VW with the VW's motor what will happen?
you can power an 8 or a 10 with a good, clean 50-75 watts if you keep the signal clean. But if you hook that 50-75 watts up to much larger speaker(15-18) the speaker will not move much. As the size of the speaker gets bigger you will need more power to drive it.
swez on 08/26/2007 15:21:07
Cone area is part of the equation for sure. But there are other physical aspects to consider too. To address them properly, a little more background application info would be most helpful.
1. What frequency range are we looking at here?
2. How much SPL is needed in that range?
3. Are there any physical space limits to consider here? (enclosure design issues)
4. How many watts of power are at your disposal?
With that kind of info, we have a baseline to work with. Say more please...
Swez
gearhead on 08/26/2007 15:48:34
#1- Somewhere in the range of 150-250hz on the low end and 18khz-22khz on the high end.
#2- Enough to provide above normal volume in a 27,000cf shop.
#3- Not really.
#4- For each channel (right and left) I have available- 600w x 1 @ 2ohm mono, 300w x 2 @1ohm/stereo, 300w x 1 @ 4ohm mono
Right now I'm using multiple "smaller" speakers (5 1/4" to 6 1/2"). I'm just wondering if using fewer larger speakers would be a better way to go. A set 6 1/2" components in a car with 300w driving them is pretty loud. Put those in a 27,000cf shop though, and it gets a lot quieter.
Oh, yeah. Subs aren't a concern here. My bass system is just dandy.
Victor on 08/27/2007 00:14:04
what is it that you are aiming at .....????do we need to pin down a solution, or are we just discussing certain basics or audio in detail...???
Victor...
you may not get car audio specific drivers of lager size... but have a look at these...
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&CAT_ID=49&ObjectGroup_ID=849
if you are looking at something for car audio then i would prefer a 3 way component system over larger coaxials...
dls, cdt, dynaudio, diamond, morel, focal, rainbow etc make some high end 3 way component systems. with 6,7,8" drivers for MB, 4,5" drivers for MR and tweeters integrated by a well designed 3 way xover...
swez on 08/27/2007 03:15:46
Dang... I wrote a long and comprehensive plan for you to review and consider and it's GONE... MAD (Victor... is your mouse playing tricks again?) GRIN
In summary, consider setting up "Zones" in your shop where you want the sound to be top notch and somewhat focused. If you have high ceilings, (mounting speakers at 12-15 feet above the floor) is what we do in Retail and Commercial installs. That can mean drops from the ceiling on down rods and proper mouting hardware.
As for the boxes, consider an pair of 6.5" MB cones, (8 ohms net + a wide angle tweeter) and passive crossover for each box. Here's a list of possible horn tweets to consider:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/264-240.pdf (60 x 60 degree dispersion pattern)
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=270-049
(90 x 90 degree pattern)
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=280-050
(Narrow vertical, wide horizontal pattern here) Consider a crossover point above 1,500 Hz. for better power handling.
I would suggest 8 ohm systems and 2 way passive crossovers here. Depending on the MB speaker needs, each enclosure would probably be well under 0.25 cf/chamber for the MB drivers.
We've used ceiling mounted cans in many applications with very good results. Many designs are out there and actually sound very good too. The often have a 70V or 8 ohm option too. These are not cheap and the dispersion patterns vary a lot, depending on height to the floor ratios. They often come with ceiling tile mounting hardware, a PITA to assemble and install, (Until one has done a few of them) and very reliable and accurate sound too.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-172
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/300-172s.pdf (Manual)
There are so many configuration options available with "Zoned Array" speakers. Depending on the speakers you have now and how many Zones you wish to use, there are many good ways to do this. But a good layout of your building would be most helpful to determine a good array mix.
Comments?
Swez
Victor on 08/27/2007 03:45:37
hey .. i got a new mouse... i mean.. my comp got a new mouse... GRIN
swez on 08/27/2007 04:06:18
Keep the cats away from it OK... LOL
Swez
gearhead on 08/27/2007 09:06:23
My shop is 30' x 50' with 18' high walls. I've got 1- 10' x 24' room with 8' high walls, the rest is essentially open space. No drop cielings, no partitions, etc.. I spend the majority of my time in the front 1/2 of the shop.
I guess my main question is/was would I be better off (volume wise) using fewer "large" (10"-12") full range speakers, or using numerous "smaller" (4 1/2"-6 1/2") component sets and/or coaxials? Or is it pretty much a wash? Available wattage would be the same either way.
What brings all of this up is that I see 10"-18" guitar amp and organ speakers that only use 35-100wrms. As far as I know (but I'm probably wrong) guitar speaker cabinets just have large speakers in them with no tweeters, and they play the full range of frequencies of a guitar or organ. Or am I completely off track?
swez on 08/27/2007 11:57:58
I see your point and main issue that may be plaguing you, is more about dispersion patterns vs full range MI/PA speakers.
A full range MI/PA speaker has it's limits to the instrument it was designed for. Guitars are typically 1000 - 5,000 Hz. Organ speakers need a wider range and often employ a combination of woofer and midrange horn for their range.
Here is an example of a very common 10" MI/PA speaker efficiency and frequecy plot. Note the rapid drop in SPL on the graph above 5,000 Hz. That means we lose a lot of the drum kit cymbals and High-Hat sound and need a tweeter to make up for this.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-800s.pdf
Also, note the peaky upper mids above 1,000 Hz. This adds a "nasal or honky" tonal quality to the speaker which may be fine for well EQ'd systems or crossovers that compensate for these peaks.
In your case, Zoning your speakers and using a few more in a well planned array will do the job nicely. The further off axis we get from a speakers general radiation patterns we get, the less HI-FI sound we get from them.
In your smaller room, (10' x 24' x 8') A pair of 2-way speakers would
be fine for coverage. A wall mounted system, about 7' above the floor and angled down a few degrees would be good. On the 10' wall, spacing them 3.5 - 4.0' off the center line in the room should be pretty sweet and fill this room well.
In the main area mentioned, coaxials will work, but the tweeter patterns are narrow unless they are mounted up high above the floor. (A 30 degree cone radiation pattern gets broader as we go higher from the floor) That's where horn tweeters really shine. They can change the beam patterns considerably for wider dispersion patterns. (That's why we use them in larger room areas)
In this section of the room, consider an array that is about 10-12 feet off the center of the of the 30' dimension of the room and about 12-15 spacing along the 50' dimension.
That's 6 speakers boxes in all here. Three are left channel, 3 are right channel and if using 8 ohm units, we get a 2.66 ohm per channel load and safe for amps that deliver adequate power at 2 ohm loads per channel. You won't need a lot of power to get say 105+ dB of SPL in the room with this arrangement.
Comments?
Swez
gearhead on 08/27/2007 13:24:10
The 10' x 24' room has no speakers in it, and there are no plans to install any. This room is in the rear corner of the shop at floor level.
I'm planning on mounting the speakers to the main vertical support beams, about 10'-12' above the floor, midway along the 50' wall (which will place them ahead of the room), aimed approximately at the front door (12' w x 8'h rollup), since this is where I spend most of my time.
I think I've got a good idea now of what to do with what I've got. Thanks for the info. A site contribution will be coming soon. Do I owe you anything?
swez on 08/27/2007 15:56:24
Personal gratuities are always accepted and much appreciated. Shoot me an e-mail and I'll give you an address. ( swezdp@yahoo.com )
Hope this works well and be willing to tweak locations as needed to get the best zone coverage. I can guide you as needed.
Dave
A speaker with more cone area will provide more volume (because it can move more air), if wattage, impedance, & sensitivity are roughly equal, correct?
If the above is correct, are there any large (10"-18") full range speakers available that don't require massive amounts of wattage?
Replies (11)
ttocs on 08/26/2007 15:06:44
well yes and no... Think of the speaker as a motor. Now the motor in a VW is small as it does not need to be right? Think of this like a 8 or maybe a 10" sub. Now take that motor out and put it in a suburban(the 15-18" woofer). The suburban can move more air because it is bigger, but when it is driven by the same amount of power as the VW with the VW's motor what will happen?
you can power an 8 or a 10 with a good, clean 50-75 watts if you keep the signal clean. But if you hook that 50-75 watts up to much larger speaker(15-18) the speaker will not move much. As the size of the speaker gets bigger you will need more power to drive it.
swez on 08/26/2007 15:21:07
Cone area is part of the equation for sure. But there are other physical aspects to consider too. To address them properly, a little more background application info would be most helpful.
1. What frequency range are we looking at here?
2. How much SPL is needed in that range?
3. Are there any physical space limits to consider here? (enclosure design issues)
4. How many watts of power are at your disposal?
With that kind of info, we have a baseline to work with. Say more please...
Swez
gearhead on 08/26/2007 15:48:34
#1- Somewhere in the range of 150-250hz on the low end and 18khz-22khz on the high end.
#2- Enough to provide above normal volume in a 27,000cf shop.
#3- Not really.
#4- For each channel (right and left) I have available- 600w x 1 @ 2ohm mono, 300w x 2 @1ohm/stereo, 300w x 1 @ 4ohm mono
Right now I'm using multiple "smaller" speakers (5 1/4" to 6 1/2"). I'm just wondering if using fewer larger speakers would be a better way to go. A set 6 1/2" components in a car with 300w driving them is pretty loud. Put those in a 27,000cf shop though, and it gets a lot quieter.
Oh, yeah. Subs aren't a concern here. My bass system is just dandy.
Victor on 08/27/2007 00:14:04
what is it that you are aiming at .....????do we need to pin down a solution, or are we just discussing certain basics or audio in detail...???
Victor...
you may not get car audio specific drivers of lager size... but have a look at these...
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&CAT_ID=49&ObjectGroup_ID=849
if you are looking at something for car audio then i would prefer a 3 way component system over larger coaxials...
dls, cdt, dynaudio, diamond, morel, focal, rainbow etc make some high end 3 way component systems. with 6,7,8" drivers for MB, 4,5" drivers for MR and tweeters integrated by a well designed 3 way xover...
swez on 08/27/2007 03:15:46
Dang... I wrote a long and comprehensive plan for you to review and consider and it's GONE... MAD (Victor... is your mouse playing tricks again?) GRIN
In summary, consider setting up "Zones" in your shop where you want the sound to be top notch and somewhat focused. If you have high ceilings, (mounting speakers at 12-15 feet above the floor) is what we do in Retail and Commercial installs. That can mean drops from the ceiling on down rods and proper mouting hardware.
As for the boxes, consider an pair of 6.5" MB cones, (8 ohms net + a wide angle tweeter) and passive crossover for each box. Here's a list of possible horn tweets to consider:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/264-240.pdf (60 x 60 degree dispersion pattern)
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=270-049
(90 x 90 degree pattern)
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=280-050
(Narrow vertical, wide horizontal pattern here) Consider a crossover point above 1,500 Hz. for better power handling.
I would suggest 8 ohm systems and 2 way passive crossovers here. Depending on the MB speaker needs, each enclosure would probably be well under 0.25 cf/chamber for the MB drivers.
We've used ceiling mounted cans in many applications with very good results. Many designs are out there and actually sound very good too. The often have a 70V or 8 ohm option too. These are not cheap and the dispersion patterns vary a lot, depending on height to the floor ratios. They often come with ceiling tile mounting hardware, a PITA to assemble and install, (Until one has done a few of them) and very reliable and accurate sound too.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-172
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/300-172s.pdf (Manual)
There are so many configuration options available with "Zoned Array" speakers. Depending on the speakers you have now and how many Zones you wish to use, there are many good ways to do this. But a good layout of your building would be most helpful to determine a good array mix.
Comments?
Swez
Victor on 08/27/2007 03:45:37
hey .. i got a new mouse... i mean.. my comp got a new mouse... GRIN
swez on 08/27/2007 04:06:18
Keep the cats away from it OK... LOL
Swez
gearhead on 08/27/2007 09:06:23
My shop is 30' x 50' with 18' high walls. I've got 1- 10' x 24' room with 8' high walls, the rest is essentially open space. No drop cielings, no partitions, etc.. I spend the majority of my time in the front 1/2 of the shop.
I guess my main question is/was would I be better off (volume wise) using fewer "large" (10"-12") full range speakers, or using numerous "smaller" (4 1/2"-6 1/2") component sets and/or coaxials? Or is it pretty much a wash? Available wattage would be the same either way.
What brings all of this up is that I see 10"-18" guitar amp and organ speakers that only use 35-100wrms. As far as I know (but I'm probably wrong) guitar speaker cabinets just have large speakers in them with no tweeters, and they play the full range of frequencies of a guitar or organ. Or am I completely off track?
swez on 08/27/2007 11:57:58
I see your point and main issue that may be plaguing you, is more about dispersion patterns vs full range MI/PA speakers.
A full range MI/PA speaker has it's limits to the instrument it was designed for. Guitars are typically 1000 - 5,000 Hz. Organ speakers need a wider range and often employ a combination of woofer and midrange horn for their range.
Here is an example of a very common 10" MI/PA speaker efficiency and frequecy plot. Note the rapid drop in SPL on the graph above 5,000 Hz. That means we lose a lot of the drum kit cymbals and High-Hat sound and need a tweeter to make up for this.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-800s.pdf
Also, note the peaky upper mids above 1,000 Hz. This adds a "nasal or honky" tonal quality to the speaker which may be fine for well EQ'd systems or crossovers that compensate for these peaks.
In your case, Zoning your speakers and using a few more in a well planned array will do the job nicely. The further off axis we get from a speakers general radiation patterns we get, the less HI-FI sound we get from them.
In your smaller room, (10' x 24' x 8') A pair of 2-way speakers would
be fine for coverage. A wall mounted system, about 7' above the floor and angled down a few degrees would be good. On the 10' wall, spacing them 3.5 - 4.0' off the center line in the room should be pretty sweet and fill this room well.
In the main area mentioned, coaxials will work, but the tweeter patterns are narrow unless they are mounted up high above the floor. (A 30 degree cone radiation pattern gets broader as we go higher from the floor) That's where horn tweeters really shine. They can change the beam patterns considerably for wider dispersion patterns. (That's why we use them in larger room areas)
In this section of the room, consider an array that is about 10-12 feet off the center of the of the 30' dimension of the room and about 12-15 spacing along the 50' dimension.
That's 6 speakers boxes in all here. Three are left channel, 3 are right channel and if using 8 ohm units, we get a 2.66 ohm per channel load and safe for amps that deliver adequate power at 2 ohm loads per channel. You won't need a lot of power to get say 105+ dB of SPL in the room with this arrangement.
Comments?
Swez
gearhead on 08/27/2007 13:24:10
The 10' x 24' room has no speakers in it, and there are no plans to install any. This room is in the rear corner of the shop at floor level.
I'm planning on mounting the speakers to the main vertical support beams, about 10'-12' above the floor, midway along the 50' wall (which will place them ahead of the room), aimed approximately at the front door (12' w x 8'h rollup), since this is where I spend most of my time.
I think I've got a good idea now of what to do with what I've got. Thanks for the info. A site contribution will be coming soon. Do I owe you anything?
swez on 08/27/2007 15:56:24
Personal gratuities are always accepted and much appreciated. Shoot me an e-mail and I'll give you an address. ( swezdp@yahoo.com )
Hope this works well and be willing to tweak locations as needed to get the best zone coverage. I can guide you as needed.
Dave
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