Hey all you DIY car repair guys, I could use some input on a problem noted below:
The Car: 1992 Buick LeSabre 3.8 Liter, 205 HP (113.000 miles)
The problem: Car starts fine, good idle and fine for around town trips. When at highway speeds and in OD, the engine stumbles,chugs and misfires on hills with OD engaged and ~1500 RPM's. Once the car is back on level pavement, all is normal unless I give her more throttle. (55-60 MPH)
When I disable OD, she climbs the hills better and barely any chugging or misfires are noted. Here, we are now at ~2,200 RPM and good power is noted.
I recently added some fuel injector cleaner and gas dryer as well. The fuel filter has about 10,000 miles on it. The plugs and wires are about 4,000 miles new too.
This acts like water in the fuel system at first blush, so that is what I focused on initially. My plan is to run the tank low and add fresh gas. (Have about 8-10 gallons in tank now)
There are no dash light flags, the check engine light does not come on so the ECM computer has not registered enough faults to trigger a code flag yet. The oil pressure, temperature and voltage gages all read normal.
Finally, I have noted a few dry-rot vacuum lines and will replace them this weekend as well. The strange thing here, the problem noted does not show up all the time. Sometimes everything is normal while other times, she chugs and misfires.
I don't plan to dump a lot of $$$ into repairs on this car right now. Will probably donate it to my Church when I replace it later. They have a mechanics group that takes in donated vehicles, repairs them and then gives them to low income families that need reliable transportation. (How cool is that?) The donor gets book value for a tax write off too.
Any additional thoughts to consider?
Swez
PS This is a "Ghetto Hoopty Bucket". lol For now, it's fine for hauling my tools and fishing gear around, but needs some work that I don't plan to pay for. Basically, a good winter beater is all.
Replies (30)
trunkisloud on 08/17/2007 22:06:40
hey man i searched around as i was stumped on this one too...makes me irritated since i have an auto mechanics background..heres what the guy said ........." After lots of expensive troubleshooting at the dealer, discovered that the problem was a bad ground between the body and the engine not allowing the computer to run the Torque Converter Clutch correctly. Ran a 10 guage wire between the firewall and the engine and the problem went away. Total cost $2.71 for the wire and two lugs. Try this first."
hope that helps...especially since its basically at no cost.
SQLThump on 08/18/2007 00:36:48
Been having similar problems with my ghetto hoopty bucket, and it turned out to be low fluids. My siblings have been driving my car more than me lately, and when I checked under the hood for the first time in a week I flipped. My cone air filter had fallen off, and all of my fluids were around a quart low.
Fortunately, a screw, some fluids and 20 minutes later, all is well for now.
swez on 08/18/2007 09:34:13
The Aux ground is simple enough to do. The other thing I have not checked is the trany fluid levels. The car does not have any leaks that I am aware of. (No wet spots when parked)
SQL, GM cars of this vintage are well known for oil level drops after about 1500 miles. Used to drive a lot for biz and the cars we were given by the company were Cutlass Sierra's. (1984-1990) They always dropped a quart of oil every 1500 miles and the Mass Air Flow boards also failed at about 55-65,000 miles. (Replaced these in 3 consecutive GM cars)
In 1990, we had more options and many of the reps and managers opted for the Taurus. (Much better car!!!) Had 2 of them in a span of 5 years and no trouble with either one up to 75,000 miles. General maint costs dropped considerably in the company vehicles as most went with the Taurus. In 1995, we got a now option... The Mercury Villager was added to our list. Had a 95 & 98 models and these were great company vehicles too. (Thanks to Nissan Quest design and components)
FYI: In all honesty, still believe this is a fuel quality/delivery problem. The electric fuel pump is in the tank and since this car has below average miles and sits a lot, sediment build up in the pump screen cannot be ruled out just yet either.
Swez
trunkisloud on 08/18/2007 10:10:15
definately could be fuel...ive had a few cars in this class and even though they have their issues they can run for a long time.....the 3.8 engine believe it or not is one of the best engines built by gm....they go for well over 200,000 miles in most that ive seen....just like the late 80's and early 90's 4.3 v6....but these cars seem to have tranny issues though as ive seen in a few as well,.
Ash on 08/18/2007 10:24:16
The simplest, although not the cheapest, way to diagnose the problem is to have it put on a computer while it's running to get a proper readout. Not just a code retrieval scan.
When you're dealing with fuel injected/ cpu controlled cars, you can end up "chasing dragons" trying to guess the problem even though it may "make sense" of what the problem should be. A lot of times it's not what you think it is. For instance, most would go to replacing sensors in the culprit circuit, when actually it could be and often is bad connections and or vaccumm leaks. Especially, when no codes are thrown.
It's more time consuming and aggravating to get it right without a proper diagnostic test. Plus you could end up spending more by replacing stuff you don't need.
That is why I love older cars. Much easier to care for, though they don't have all the modern amenities.
swez on 08/18/2007 16:26:28
Ash, you are good my man! CLAP Give that man a Perch or a Catfish if you prefer)
On many previous cars, always had the repair manual handy. (Same one the dealership mechanics use) With that in hand and a solid understanding of the sections as written, (mostly by morons that don't know a monkey wrench from a dip stick) was able to nail things down to specific and minimal guessing. (Thank God for the well detailed illustrations, diagrams and pictures huh?) But don't have one on this car. (figures huh...)
Anyway, it may come down to that option of having a tech have a good look at it. After many years of doing my own diagnostics and repair work, (95% + accurate) this may be the break point. I will do the obvious and cheap ones 1st. (Replace old vacuum lines) If that does not cure it, then it's probably good to call on a Pro.
On a sidebar note, had a 1990 Olds Trofeo' for a few years and this car had every electronic gadget under the sun, moon and stars. The Dealership Techs could not figure out the problem with a 4 day look and all kinds of tests. That was $300.00 out of Mom's pocket as it was her car then.
I bought the GM manual for this car and started reading. Intuitively, had a pretty good sense of where the root problem was and after a few simple tests, lots of reading and a call to the company that makes the module in question, I was spot on with the diagnosis. The guy I spoke with knew this problem very well and was 100% right on his comments. (Rebuild or replace the module, as the electrolytic caps are leaking due to age)
The dealership says... "We need the car for 3 weeks and it will be about $1500 to fix this one. We send that module out for rebuilding and don't stock them." Hum... is that right? I have better plan...
So, I called a few bone yards in the area and they found a car in IA that had what was needed. "OK, order it and I'll pick it up when it comes in." Three days later, I had the Display Control Module in hand and installed in 2 hours... problem solved!
Yeah, spent $100.00 for the manual and another $250 for the module, plus the $300 wasted at the dealership, but the car ran flawlessly for 4 more years. Mom was happy, I was happy and the dealship did not do a darn thing right. That's why I do 90% of my own repair work. (I'm stubborn huh?)
My Dad used to say... "Son, if a man can make it, another man can fix it as long as he can think like the guy who made it". After many years of DIY work, Dad was right on this one. (R.I.P. Dad, I'll carry on in your place when it makes sense)
End Rant... LOL
Swez
PS Yes, the 3.8 engine is a very good engine. (One of GM's best) In most cases, it's often a bad sensor, a worn out computer module or a $2.00 part. So far this car has been pretty reliable. It's worst quirk is poor quality disc brake rotors, (Poor quailty steel) marginal ALT design, (CS-130 ALT) and a lousy OEM paint job. Other than that, this is a pretty solid car.
Ash on 08/18/2007 22:01:04
Yeah it's hard to beat a G.M. product for american vehicle choice. Buick, Oldsmobile, and a few others use that powerplant, and some have been known to get over 200,000 miles and still remain solid. The 4.3 V6 is a good example. Used in a lot of cars, trucks, and vans because it is highly reliable.
I obtain at least a Haynes manual for every car that I own. They are somewhat vague compared to Chilton's , but it's better than nothing. At least it can put you in the ballpark.
You might try checking out a forum that specializes in that model. It might be a common problem that others have learned to tackle. I've done that with several cars that I have owned and at least found the answer I was looking for.
swez on 08/19/2007 08:48:57
Yep, I may go that route too. Most better libraries have Chilton or Haynes manuals as reference books.
At the moment, I have good cause to think it's just bad fuel in the system or leaky vacuum lines at the manifold. (A few V-lines are looking pretty dried out and that's an simple and cheap fix that needs to be done anyway. Am planning to drive the tank dry and bring some fresh gas today. If that does not resolve the problem, then it's on to deeper diagnostics.
Am not a big fan of just swapping out parts willy-nilly either. Have worked with guys that do that only to waste money and wind up grabbing a manual later to find the root problem. In many cases, they'd put $200.00 into various parts, only to find out later it was a $5.00 sensor or a bad connector... go figure huh?
Swez
PS Thanks for chummin' along on this topic too. Appreciate the 2 heads are better than one on this one. Would you mind running a fuel pressure gage test? LOL
Ash on 08/19/2007 15:57:21
Funny you should mention, as I've been having a somewhat similar problem on my blazer. Every now and then it sputters or skips when giving it gas at idle (like taking off from a red light). Other than that it runs fine. It does have a slight erractic lope at idle that is hard to figure out. The fact that it isn't all the time is baffling!
I've extracted codes, and there is none. Had a tune up done (needed it anyway), and replaced some cracked vacuum lines as well. Cleaned out the emmission system, yet still it is there. I gave up on it and decided it's time to have a full diagnostic done. If I could just get off my lazy rump and have it done, I might just get a answer....
swez on 08/19/2007 18:26:17
After researching this online, there's a lot of potential causes.
Some point to dirty of clogged injectors, insufficient fuel pressure, coolant leaks, fouled plugs, bad ignition coil, wires and fuel/air mixing issues or a bad O2 sensor. (ECM may not detect many of these) Meaning, it won't throw codes out.
When is the last time you replaced the inline fuel filter? In an older Blazer, they are a real PITA! A $7.00 part and 2 hours work. It's located under the driver's side door, up near the frame and the clips are a bugger to break loose.
Swez
Ash on 08/19/2007 19:59:52
Mines is throttle body, so there is no back pressure in the lines. As soon as the key is off, pressure is automatically relieved. That's been changed as part of routine maintenance. O2 is fairly new as well.
Sometimes it just good to get it up on a analyzer to really see what's going on, that's if they do a good job and are able to find the culprit.
swez on 08/20/2007 18:59:09
OK, an quick update here. Replaced several vacuum lines, (4) off the Vac/Dist system on the manifold. They were crispy and just fell apart as I pulled them loose. (Yep, they needed replacement.. dryrot)
Reinstalled everything and fired up the engine to test the work. WT Hey, it ran worse and lopped like a kiddy ride at a 2 cent carnival! Had some propane handy and shot it around the new hose connections and that did not change the lope. (BTW... Propane is a good leak detector as it fills the vacuum leak with combustible gas) When the propane finds the leak, the engine smooths out. (Not this time) Neat trick huh?
Take it apart again... Ahhh, here we go, a thin gasket seal had broken in a few pieces and left an air gap that created the leak. OK, made a new gasket and reinstalled everything again. Ahhh, that's better! She idles normally again.
Test drive time... Nope, the original problem is still there and is a bit more noticable too. The tank is now below 1/2 full and has injector cleaner and gas drier in it too. I still believe it's bad gas as the cars' been sitting a lot on hot days and cooler nights. (Condensation problems are common in this situation)
So, will run the tank dry and add fresh fuel in the trusty ol gas can. That will be Midgrade or Premium as they have better additives. With luck, that will take care of the problems.
Tech Tip: Gas blends w/ 10% Ethanol are natural water collectors and driers. The alcohol breaks down the moisture as a byproduct. However, more than 10% Ethanol/alcohol on older cars can be a problem too. Poor octane and performance are common and can also foul the plugs. (MTB works better, but that's been banned in larger cities due to excessive emmission issues)
It's amazing what one can learn on Google searches these days. As it turns out, gasoline and diesel fuels are specifically blended for winter and summer driving conditions. That's one reason our fuel costs fluxuate so much as the seasons change. Refiniers have to switch to summer blends in spring and back to winter blends in the fall.
When they switch from one blend to another, fuel supplies in the summer are low and demand is ramping up. So does repair work and general maintainence work on the systems. That's why we get a spike near Memorial Day and prices remain artificially high during the summer driving season. Funny how the price drops rapidly after Labor Day though huh? (The winter blends transitions seem to be much quicker and lower prices too) Wonder why that is? (Manipulated shortages do benefit the fuel suppliers a lot) Just look at their profits in the 2nd and 3rd quarters these past few years.
I smell a few RATS here, how 'bout U?
Swez
Ash on 08/20/2007 19:52:10
Yeah, we have that problem especially in this tourist town. As soon as people start complaining and government threatens to pursue, suddenly the prices drop a bit.....
I still think the govvernment is involved and got that whole cycle concocted to juice peoples pockets for a while. They then step in to satisfy the other side as well. Everyone is happy??!!
Have you ever tried Seafoam treatment. Seems to work pretty good as it dries gas, clean fuel systems, and lubes upper cylinders as well. It can even be applied through a vacuum line or injector cleaning machine to help clean intakes. I used it quite a few times in all my vehicles both ways. I even use it periodically in my Jap' cruiser. It does help to have a regimen though.
swez on 08/20/2007 22:52:40
Looks like a possible option for carbonized valves and cleans the fuel system too. Wonder what's in it? Have not seen this product on the shelves around here, but will have a look. Thanks for the tip! CLAP
Swez
SQLThump on 08/24/2007 18:39:24
Hey Swez, have you ever tried RESTORE engine formula? It restores cylinder compression and seriously can be a cure-all for some vehicles. It is added in with a fresh change of oil, and every time I used it, rough idling and a few other things seemed to chill out.
I believe that it seeps in between the rings and cylinder walls, and then fills in the gaps to seal it well and increase compression. I will be throwin' in a can when I change oil this weekend. Haven't had to use it yet, but my engine is starting to hate life after the last 6 months of 2-4 people using my car because theri wheels wont work. Time for some seroius reworking, or a new set of wheels. Good KBB value on the car. In "fair" condition it said it was worth around 1300 dollars.
Ash on 08/24/2007 19:22:22
Seafoam is supposed to be a stronger solution than your regular additive. In fact it is one of the few that can actually be used in gas, oil, and induction cleaning machines. Before finding out about it, I was very adamant about using Marvel Mystery Oil (another great product). I'm not sure what's in it, but it works pretty good if regimened.
You should be able to find it just about anywhere automotive products are sold, as it is becoming pretty popular. Even Walmart is starting to carry it. It is quite expensive however @ 7-8 dollars a 16 oz can.
Restore, is really nothing more than a oil thickner. You could get similar results by user a heavier weight. I don't recommend it unless you have severe engine wear for it will only speed up wear in other places due to lack of proper lubrication. True it might cushion a few worn parts, but other parts with smaller oil passages may suffer as well in the long run leading to a total breakdown or more damaged engine.
I've owned a few busted buckets in my days, and I've tried about all that stuff. I even used the little metallic pellets that JC Whitney sells. There is no replacement for an overhaul/rebuild. Once it's worn, it's gone. All you can do is keep it tuned up as best as possible until you rebuild or replace.
SQLThump on 08/24/2007 20:33:12
Ok ash, thanks for tyhe info. Maybe I will reconsider that Restore can.
What was up with the little mettallic pellets? That sounds dangerous!
swez on 08/24/2007 21:28:07
Ahhh, good ol Rislone Marvel Mystery Oil... I used that many a time on sticky valves and such many years ago. Not sure what's in it, but a few good wiffs would probably show it's kerosene, toluene and a few other petrol based products.
Here's what I see so far, as the gas tank is getting closer to empty, (like 4-5 gallons left now) the car still idles fine, has more sputter at accelleration but runs smoothly while maintaining steady speeds. (25-70 MPH) I took a few turns to see how that might affect performance and it only does sputter on sharp turns under accelleration. (The fuel shifts away from the low spot in the tank and high water content is drawn into the fuel pump and into the injectors... hense, she sputters pretty good)
Water is more dense than gasoline and tends to stay low in the tank sump. So, when the tank get lower in good fuel, the fuel pump pulls more water and mixes with gas to chug and sputter. (Makes sense huh?) Right now, there's probably a good amount of water and alcohol in this remaining gas, that it does not have enough fresh gas to run well under a load. (Accelleration specifically)
Well, am going to drain the tank this weekend and install a new inline fuel filter and blow out the lines too. Hopefully, that combination works and the problem is solved.
Finally, have done a fair amount of reading up on this one and have learned that many bad things happen to gasoline as it ages and takes on water. (Condensations and the like) The chemical changes that take place in the additives used, make matters worse and the ECM/MAF will try to adjust for them to a degree. But there is a point when the only real fix is to drain the tank and clear out the lines and filters. It's a PITA to be sure, but since this car has run flawlessly until this last tank of gas, it's reasonable to start there first.
Swez
PS I don't think "Restore" will be a big help here. I have a good, steady idle and plenty of power before this event came along. It uses 10W30 oil and does not leak fluids when parked. That Sea Foam may be a good idea as I have noted a noisy lifter or two when the engine is cold, but it goes away after the engine warns up. I see a steady 30 lbs of oil pressure at a warm idle and above 60 lbs at crusing speeds. That tells me the oil pump and circulation system is OK. (If there was a leak or bad rings, these numbers would be much lower)
trunkisloud on 08/24/2007 22:59:06
this whole situation reminds me of an issue that my dad had back in the day with carbeureted engines......the gas would heat up too much before it got to the carb....."vapor lock"....so a few clothespins on the fuel line absorbed the heat and cooled the fuel...back to normal.....but the car showed similar symptoms as this situation.....just a thought...also i found a few links i thought were interesting ...dont know if it really pertains to this but i thought it was cool
http://www.alpharubicon.com/altenergy/gaslifepal.htm
http://theepicenter.com/tow021799.html
swez on 08/25/2007 08:28:59
Thanks fopr the FYI's guys. These two links above correspond well to what I have learned through other research methods too.
As I look back a few months, one local station I have used periodically, put some gas in the tank and also in a 5 gallon plastic gas can. Noted the distinct odor of "kerosene" in that gas can. I did use it to power the lawnmower and weed whacker and it performed adequately in each case.
After a month of normal storage, (In garage, at ambient temps and humidity) wanted to get fresh gas and just dumped about 2.5 gallons into the car's tank and refilled a smaller container later with fresh fuel. (No kerosene smells this time though) Shortly after that event, the car began to show signs mentioned before until a fresh fill up. After the fill, the symptoms went away until a few weeks ago.
This leads me to consider that this "mentioned gas" was below standards in octane for car use, but adequate for less demanding engines like the lawnmower. (Hum, interesting series of connect the dots here huh?)
Well, this weekend is set aside for draining the gas tank and inspecting the fuel system, changing the fuel filter and clearing the lines. Will look at the "vapor lock" issues as well. That could also be part of the mix as the exhaust pipe runs below the tank and near the fuel lines that feed up to the engine as well. While I'm at it, will look for the Sea Foam product and give it a try with fresh gas ect.
Swez
PS I want to thank all that have participated in this little "gremlin hunt" so far. Hopefully, this is a simple case of stale fuel and perhaps a clogged fuel filter. Will keep ya'll posted as I learn more.
swez on 08/25/2007 09:04:02
On the topic of "Vapor Lock", that's been pretty much fixed and a thing of the past now that most modern cars "push gas" under pressure from the fuel pump, (In tank) and a return line for excess gas. This recirculation process chills the gas and it remain in a liquid state at all times and cannot turn gassous and create vapor lock under these conditions.
Older cars had this problem when using "sucking" fuel pumps that ran off the camshaft and fuel lines near the engine would get hot and boil the liquid gasoline into a gas. This was a notable problem in mid-80's cars and earlier. Some were really notorious too. (Chrysler products and some Ford & GM cars had it bad) The fix is to re-route fuel lines away from heat or install heat shields to minimize these problems.
http://www.misterfixit.com/vaprlock.htm
Swez SMILE
swez on 08/25/2007 22:03:42
OK, finally had a dry day to work on the old GHB. I managed to empty out about 4-5 gallons of fuel in the tank and noted the color was a milky off white and smelled a bit off as well.
Took the fuel line apart at the inline filter and just cranked the starter and fed the old gas through the old filter until there's about 2 gallons left in the tank. The filter was a bit clogged as fuel pressure was a tad low, so I also installed a fresh filter too. After hooking things back up and such, the car did idle smoother and fresh gas pending tomorrow. (No misses at the tail pipe either) YIPPY!!! HAPPY
Boy, those speed clips on these GM fiters are a pain after others have narled up the connecting hoses. (PITA!!!) Someone did replace this filter before I got this car and hacked them up a bit. (Arrg)
Did find a place that carries Sea Foam too. A 16 oz can is $7.00 and I plan to add that to the fresh gas and a few ounces in the crank case too. It seems this product is pretty good for cleaning fuel injectors and removing water from the gas tank and also good at reducing carbon and such in the heads, sticky lifters and helps free up sticky rings too.
Hum, that's a lot of fix for such a small price, if it works as well as the can states. Thanks for the tip there Ash!!! We'll give er a try. Hopefully a fresh tank of gas is all that is needed now. We'll know soon.
FYI: Oil pressure is very good and she idles very well at 650 RPM in drive. At idle, I see about 40 PSI and at 2,000 RPM, (~70 MPH) it's more like 80 PSI. For an older engine, these are solid numbers. That tells me the heads and pistons are doing a good job and sealing pretty well. (That's good news)
Swez
PS Well, it's 10:00 PM and 5 + hours of jumping around has pooped me out. Going to bed and dream about burning rubber on this old GHB. LOL
GHB = Ghetto Hoopty Bucket... got that one from SPLThump and it fits to a tee. hehe Good night all...ZZzz
cplkittle on 08/26/2007 00:33:25
fixing gas prices? who would do such a thing???
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070822/ap_on_bi_ge/gas_station_lawsuit_5
Swez, my suggestion is to fill 'er up with premium and a quart of regular mineral spirits (the only ingredient in most octane boosters and fuel injector cleaners).
Take her out to one of those long straight michigan roads and open 'er up to blow out the soot.
speaking of michigan, I am in fremont right now, and will be leaving for georgia in the morning. not looking foreward to that 13hr drive.
SQLThump on 08/26/2007 02:16:04
Glad to see that the GHB is treating you better after the round of repairs. It just sems to fit the older Buick of our age range. Especially that paint quaility. My car is getting worse by the day. STUPID RUST!!!!!!!
Ash on 08/26/2007 08:21:19
Looks like you may have found the problem. Good!
To get the best results, look to run a couple of more cans, adding one to the next fill-up. The other can should be used in the vacuum hose routine like an induction cleaning. Through the gas tank, it must be regimined several times.
If you do the vacuum hose treatment (stated on can), you might want to pull the spark plugs and clean or replace them afterwards. They will soot up a bit. This one works best to remove carbon effectively. Don't get scared of the smoke it will produce... It will look like you have blown a head gasket or something, but all it's doing is blowing out carbon and the chemical. Pretty fun to watch though!
After that, take it on a simple road trip where you can maintain a good speed to blow out any remaining gunk out of the upper cyclinders with the treated gas tank.
Hope this helps,
swez on 08/26/2007 09:42:36
Check on the higher octane fuel ... that was the plan.
Have done that dropping engine cleaner into the carb on a much older car and she smoked like coal fired power plant. It left a nice soot mark on the driveway by the tail pipe too. (Dad made me clean it up too) ;-)
Don't think I'd go that route on this one as it will foul the plugs and might damage the O2 sensor and mess up the computer readings. (That's out and not really needed either)
"Blowing out the carbon" is easy... just drop the tranny into 2nd gear on the highway. At 55 MPH, the RPM's are 3,500 or so and that's plenty good and no concerns about getting a speeding ticket either.
GRIN
Long drive home there Kit... Hope you have a fat wallet for gas. We're close to $3.00 a gallon this weekend. As you get into OH or IN, the prices should drop by a dime or more. Have a safe trip home.
Gas prices are a shell game at best. The mainline suppliers like Shell and BP are generally 5-10 cents higher than local abd independent owner stations. However, quality controls at independent stations are iffy at times. They may sell for a dime cheaper, but the performance levels are not always up to minimum specifications. (Lower octane and old fuels) They often buy what is left over in a tanker truck that has been on the road for over a week. (If not more) With the blends and oxidation process, one might find stale gas in a little as 10-15 days after it left the refinery. It's amazing what one can learn through research on the Internet.
Anyway, thank you all for the inputs and such. That's what I really like about this little community we have at CK... a lot of helpful guys that have a wide range of experience in many areas in life. You guys are the "BEST" !!!
Swez
swez on 08/29/2007 09:17:05
Well, am happy to report the ol GHB is purring like a happy kitten again. The root cause appears to have been bad gas and that in turn, fouled the spark plugs as well.
Drained the tank to clear it of bad fuel and sure enough, it had a milky white tinge and low octane too. That prompted a change of the inline fuel filter as well. Took it out for a hop and noted a miss under acceleration and thought... let's have a look at the plugs and wires.
Sure enough, each plug was coated with grayish-white deposits and only had about 8,000 miles on them. So, gave em the wire wheel treatment, re-gapped to specs and Viola, idles smoothly and another test hop. This time, no misses, strong acceleration and no sputters. Ahhh, HAPPY Camper again.
One more thing while I was in there, took out the blower motor, Mounted to firewall) and cleaned out the blower cage and filter. Had a lot of debris built up and air flow was not up to snuff. These are a PITA to work on as this is a tight fit. It was worth the effort though. AC/heater air flows are good and strong again.
All is well again... and my arms look like I had a tussle with a cat and lost.. hehe GRIN
Swez
swez on 08/29/2007 16:28:39
Bump ^
Thanks for the helpful tips guys. Next step, a can of Sea Foam to fully clear the injectors and upper half of the engine too.
Swez
SQLThump on 08/29/2007 19:48:23
Very glad to see this paned out for you. I may have to try a few of these, especially the blower motor.
swez on 08/30/2007 07:29:56
It works best with hot water and perhaps a few good shots of "Simple Green" to degrease the compartment and make things smell fresh and clean when done.
If the drain ports are badly clogged, you may see wet carpeting after the job is done. Have a shop vac handy for such things, so be ready for that possibility. (Mine got pretty wet and the rear flooring got a good soaking) Get out the shop vac...
Also, there is a filter element inside the cowling that leads into the interior air ducts. They can get pretty clogged up and low air flows are a sign this filter is plugged w/ debris. When cleaned well, you should notice considerable air flow improvements from the dash ducts. There's a good test to tell if the job was successful:
1. Tape a piece of tissue paper to one of the AC ducts in the dash
2. Turn on the AC blower and observe the tissue paper action
3. Clean the blower housing as noted
4. When all is reassembled, observe the tissue action again
If the filter was plugged up, the tissue paper will flutter a lot more and it will be very obvious that you got the job done. In my case, the airflow improvement was very noticable. (30-40% more airflow now)
Have fun getting the blower motor out of its mount. It's a tight fit on GM cars and I had to remove the upper crossbar stabilizer and the rear engine lift brackets as well.
FYI: There is one electrical plug to the blower motor and a short rubber hose that helps keep the blower motor cool as well. Make sure you remove these before pulling the blower motor for cleaning. (I was a bit careless about where I set that little hose and while cleaning), I blew it down into the lower suspension. It took me an hour to find it and I got a wet face in the process. (Had to jack up one side of the car to get that far back too)
Don't make that mistake OK? (Arggg)
Swez
The Car: 1992 Buick LeSabre 3.8 Liter, 205 HP (113.000 miles)
The problem: Car starts fine, good idle and fine for around town trips. When at highway speeds and in OD, the engine stumbles,chugs and misfires on hills with OD engaged and ~1500 RPM's. Once the car is back on level pavement, all is normal unless I give her more throttle. (55-60 MPH)
When I disable OD, she climbs the hills better and barely any chugging or misfires are noted. Here, we are now at ~2,200 RPM and good power is noted.
I recently added some fuel injector cleaner and gas dryer as well. The fuel filter has about 10,000 miles on it. The plugs and wires are about 4,000 miles new too.
This acts like water in the fuel system at first blush, so that is what I focused on initially. My plan is to run the tank low and add fresh gas. (Have about 8-10 gallons in tank now)
There are no dash light flags, the check engine light does not come on so the ECM computer has not registered enough faults to trigger a code flag yet. The oil pressure, temperature and voltage gages all read normal.
Finally, I have noted a few dry-rot vacuum lines and will replace them this weekend as well. The strange thing here, the problem noted does not show up all the time. Sometimes everything is normal while other times, she chugs and misfires.
I don't plan to dump a lot of $$$ into repairs on this car right now. Will probably donate it to my Church when I replace it later. They have a mechanics group that takes in donated vehicles, repairs them and then gives them to low income families that need reliable transportation. (How cool is that?) The donor gets book value for a tax write off too.
Any additional thoughts to consider?
Swez
PS This is a "Ghetto Hoopty Bucket". lol For now, it's fine for hauling my tools and fishing gear around, but needs some work that I don't plan to pay for. Basically, a good winter beater is all.
Replies (30)
trunkisloud on 08/17/2007 22:06:40
hey man i searched around as i was stumped on this one too...makes me irritated since i have an auto mechanics background..heres what the guy said ........." After lots of expensive troubleshooting at the dealer, discovered that the problem was a bad ground between the body and the engine not allowing the computer to run the Torque Converter Clutch correctly. Ran a 10 guage wire between the firewall and the engine and the problem went away. Total cost $2.71 for the wire and two lugs. Try this first."
hope that helps...especially since its basically at no cost.
SQLThump on 08/18/2007 00:36:48
Been having similar problems with my ghetto hoopty bucket, and it turned out to be low fluids. My siblings have been driving my car more than me lately, and when I checked under the hood for the first time in a week I flipped. My cone air filter had fallen off, and all of my fluids were around a quart low.
Fortunately, a screw, some fluids and 20 minutes later, all is well for now.
swez on 08/18/2007 09:34:13
The Aux ground is simple enough to do. The other thing I have not checked is the trany fluid levels. The car does not have any leaks that I am aware of. (No wet spots when parked)
SQL, GM cars of this vintage are well known for oil level drops after about 1500 miles. Used to drive a lot for biz and the cars we were given by the company were Cutlass Sierra's. (1984-1990) They always dropped a quart of oil every 1500 miles and the Mass Air Flow boards also failed at about 55-65,000 miles. (Replaced these in 3 consecutive GM cars)
In 1990, we had more options and many of the reps and managers opted for the Taurus. (Much better car!!!) Had 2 of them in a span of 5 years and no trouble with either one up to 75,000 miles. General maint costs dropped considerably in the company vehicles as most went with the Taurus. In 1995, we got a now option... The Mercury Villager was added to our list. Had a 95 & 98 models and these were great company vehicles too. (Thanks to Nissan Quest design and components)
FYI: In all honesty, still believe this is a fuel quality/delivery problem. The electric fuel pump is in the tank and since this car has below average miles and sits a lot, sediment build up in the pump screen cannot be ruled out just yet either.
Swez
trunkisloud on 08/18/2007 10:10:15
definately could be fuel...ive had a few cars in this class and even though they have their issues they can run for a long time.....the 3.8 engine believe it or not is one of the best engines built by gm....they go for well over 200,000 miles in most that ive seen....just like the late 80's and early 90's 4.3 v6....but these cars seem to have tranny issues though as ive seen in a few as well,.
Ash on 08/18/2007 10:24:16
The simplest, although not the cheapest, way to diagnose the problem is to have it put on a computer while it's running to get a proper readout. Not just a code retrieval scan.
When you're dealing with fuel injected/ cpu controlled cars, you can end up "chasing dragons" trying to guess the problem even though it may "make sense" of what the problem should be. A lot of times it's not what you think it is. For instance, most would go to replacing sensors in the culprit circuit, when actually it could be and often is bad connections and or vaccumm leaks. Especially, when no codes are thrown.
It's more time consuming and aggravating to get it right without a proper diagnostic test. Plus you could end up spending more by replacing stuff you don't need.
That is why I love older cars. Much easier to care for, though they don't have all the modern amenities.
swez on 08/18/2007 16:26:28
Ash, you are good my man! CLAP Give that man a Perch or a Catfish if you prefer)
On many previous cars, always had the repair manual handy. (Same one the dealership mechanics use) With that in hand and a solid understanding of the sections as written, (mostly by morons that don't know a monkey wrench from a dip stick) was able to nail things down to specific and minimal guessing. (Thank God for the well detailed illustrations, diagrams and pictures huh?) But don't have one on this car. (figures huh...)
Anyway, it may come down to that option of having a tech have a good look at it. After many years of doing my own diagnostics and repair work, (95% + accurate) this may be the break point. I will do the obvious and cheap ones 1st. (Replace old vacuum lines) If that does not cure it, then it's probably good to call on a Pro.
On a sidebar note, had a 1990 Olds Trofeo' for a few years and this car had every electronic gadget under the sun, moon and stars. The Dealership Techs could not figure out the problem with a 4 day look and all kinds of tests. That was $300.00 out of Mom's pocket as it was her car then.
I bought the GM manual for this car and started reading. Intuitively, had a pretty good sense of where the root problem was and after a few simple tests, lots of reading and a call to the company that makes the module in question, I was spot on with the diagnosis. The guy I spoke with knew this problem very well and was 100% right on his comments. (Rebuild or replace the module, as the electrolytic caps are leaking due to age)
The dealership says... "We need the car for 3 weeks and it will be about $1500 to fix this one. We send that module out for rebuilding and don't stock them." Hum... is that right? I have better plan...
So, I called a few bone yards in the area and they found a car in IA that had what was needed. "OK, order it and I'll pick it up when it comes in." Three days later, I had the Display Control Module in hand and installed in 2 hours... problem solved!
Yeah, spent $100.00 for the manual and another $250 for the module, plus the $300 wasted at the dealership, but the car ran flawlessly for 4 more years. Mom was happy, I was happy and the dealship did not do a darn thing right. That's why I do 90% of my own repair work. (I'm stubborn huh?)
My Dad used to say... "Son, if a man can make it, another man can fix it as long as he can think like the guy who made it". After many years of DIY work, Dad was right on this one. (R.I.P. Dad, I'll carry on in your place when it makes sense)
End Rant... LOL
Swez
PS Yes, the 3.8 engine is a very good engine. (One of GM's best) In most cases, it's often a bad sensor, a worn out computer module or a $2.00 part. So far this car has been pretty reliable. It's worst quirk is poor quality disc brake rotors, (Poor quailty steel) marginal ALT design, (CS-130 ALT) and a lousy OEM paint job. Other than that, this is a pretty solid car.
Ash on 08/18/2007 22:01:04
Yeah it's hard to beat a G.M. product for american vehicle choice. Buick, Oldsmobile, and a few others use that powerplant, and some have been known to get over 200,000 miles and still remain solid. The 4.3 V6 is a good example. Used in a lot of cars, trucks, and vans because it is highly reliable.
I obtain at least a Haynes manual for every car that I own. They are somewhat vague compared to Chilton's , but it's better than nothing. At least it can put you in the ballpark.
You might try checking out a forum that specializes in that model. It might be a common problem that others have learned to tackle. I've done that with several cars that I have owned and at least found the answer I was looking for.
swez on 08/19/2007 08:48:57
Yep, I may go that route too. Most better libraries have Chilton or Haynes manuals as reference books.
At the moment, I have good cause to think it's just bad fuel in the system or leaky vacuum lines at the manifold. (A few V-lines are looking pretty dried out and that's an simple and cheap fix that needs to be done anyway. Am planning to drive the tank dry and bring some fresh gas today. If that does not resolve the problem, then it's on to deeper diagnostics.
Am not a big fan of just swapping out parts willy-nilly either. Have worked with guys that do that only to waste money and wind up grabbing a manual later to find the root problem. In many cases, they'd put $200.00 into various parts, only to find out later it was a $5.00 sensor or a bad connector... go figure huh?
Swez
PS Thanks for chummin' along on this topic too. Appreciate the 2 heads are better than one on this one. Would you mind running a fuel pressure gage test? LOL
Ash on 08/19/2007 15:57:21
Funny you should mention, as I've been having a somewhat similar problem on my blazer. Every now and then it sputters or skips when giving it gas at idle (like taking off from a red light). Other than that it runs fine. It does have a slight erractic lope at idle that is hard to figure out. The fact that it isn't all the time is baffling!
I've extracted codes, and there is none. Had a tune up done (needed it anyway), and replaced some cracked vacuum lines as well. Cleaned out the emmission system, yet still it is there. I gave up on it and decided it's time to have a full diagnostic done. If I could just get off my lazy rump and have it done, I might just get a answer....
swez on 08/19/2007 18:26:17
After researching this online, there's a lot of potential causes.
Some point to dirty of clogged injectors, insufficient fuel pressure, coolant leaks, fouled plugs, bad ignition coil, wires and fuel/air mixing issues or a bad O2 sensor. (ECM may not detect many of these) Meaning, it won't throw codes out.
When is the last time you replaced the inline fuel filter? In an older Blazer, they are a real PITA! A $7.00 part and 2 hours work. It's located under the driver's side door, up near the frame and the clips are a bugger to break loose.
Swez
Ash on 08/19/2007 19:59:52
Mines is throttle body, so there is no back pressure in the lines. As soon as the key is off, pressure is automatically relieved. That's been changed as part of routine maintenance. O2 is fairly new as well.
Sometimes it just good to get it up on a analyzer to really see what's going on, that's if they do a good job and are able to find the culprit.
swez on 08/20/2007 18:59:09
OK, an quick update here. Replaced several vacuum lines, (4) off the Vac/Dist system on the manifold. They were crispy and just fell apart as I pulled them loose. (Yep, they needed replacement.. dryrot)
Reinstalled everything and fired up the engine to test the work. WT Hey, it ran worse and lopped like a kiddy ride at a 2 cent carnival! Had some propane handy and shot it around the new hose connections and that did not change the lope. (BTW... Propane is a good leak detector as it fills the vacuum leak with combustible gas) When the propane finds the leak, the engine smooths out. (Not this time) Neat trick huh?
Take it apart again... Ahhh, here we go, a thin gasket seal had broken in a few pieces and left an air gap that created the leak. OK, made a new gasket and reinstalled everything again. Ahhh, that's better! She idles normally again.
Test drive time... Nope, the original problem is still there and is a bit more noticable too. The tank is now below 1/2 full and has injector cleaner and gas drier in it too. I still believe it's bad gas as the cars' been sitting a lot on hot days and cooler nights. (Condensation problems are common in this situation)
So, will run the tank dry and add fresh fuel in the trusty ol gas can. That will be Midgrade or Premium as they have better additives. With luck, that will take care of the problems.
Tech Tip: Gas blends w/ 10% Ethanol are natural water collectors and driers. The alcohol breaks down the moisture as a byproduct. However, more than 10% Ethanol/alcohol on older cars can be a problem too. Poor octane and performance are common and can also foul the plugs. (MTB works better, but that's been banned in larger cities due to excessive emmission issues)
It's amazing what one can learn on Google searches these days. As it turns out, gasoline and diesel fuels are specifically blended for winter and summer driving conditions. That's one reason our fuel costs fluxuate so much as the seasons change. Refiniers have to switch to summer blends in spring and back to winter blends in the fall.
When they switch from one blend to another, fuel supplies in the summer are low and demand is ramping up. So does repair work and general maintainence work on the systems. That's why we get a spike near Memorial Day and prices remain artificially high during the summer driving season. Funny how the price drops rapidly after Labor Day though huh? (The winter blends transitions seem to be much quicker and lower prices too) Wonder why that is? (Manipulated shortages do benefit the fuel suppliers a lot) Just look at their profits in the 2nd and 3rd quarters these past few years.
I smell a few RATS here, how 'bout U?
Swez
Ash on 08/20/2007 19:52:10
Yeah, we have that problem especially in this tourist town. As soon as people start complaining and government threatens to pursue, suddenly the prices drop a bit.....
I still think the govvernment is involved and got that whole cycle concocted to juice peoples pockets for a while. They then step in to satisfy the other side as well. Everyone is happy??!!
Have you ever tried Seafoam treatment. Seems to work pretty good as it dries gas, clean fuel systems, and lubes upper cylinders as well. It can even be applied through a vacuum line or injector cleaning machine to help clean intakes. I used it quite a few times in all my vehicles both ways. I even use it periodically in my Jap' cruiser. It does help to have a regimen though.
swez on 08/20/2007 22:52:40
Looks like a possible option for carbonized valves and cleans the fuel system too. Wonder what's in it? Have not seen this product on the shelves around here, but will have a look. Thanks for the tip! CLAP
Swez
SQLThump on 08/24/2007 18:39:24
Hey Swez, have you ever tried RESTORE engine formula? It restores cylinder compression and seriously can be a cure-all for some vehicles. It is added in with a fresh change of oil, and every time I used it, rough idling and a few other things seemed to chill out.
I believe that it seeps in between the rings and cylinder walls, and then fills in the gaps to seal it well and increase compression. I will be throwin' in a can when I change oil this weekend. Haven't had to use it yet, but my engine is starting to hate life after the last 6 months of 2-4 people using my car because theri wheels wont work. Time for some seroius reworking, or a new set of wheels. Good KBB value on the car. In "fair" condition it said it was worth around 1300 dollars.
Ash on 08/24/2007 19:22:22
Seafoam is supposed to be a stronger solution than your regular additive. In fact it is one of the few that can actually be used in gas, oil, and induction cleaning machines. Before finding out about it, I was very adamant about using Marvel Mystery Oil (another great product). I'm not sure what's in it, but it works pretty good if regimened.
You should be able to find it just about anywhere automotive products are sold, as it is becoming pretty popular. Even Walmart is starting to carry it. It is quite expensive however @ 7-8 dollars a 16 oz can.
Restore, is really nothing more than a oil thickner. You could get similar results by user a heavier weight. I don't recommend it unless you have severe engine wear for it will only speed up wear in other places due to lack of proper lubrication. True it might cushion a few worn parts, but other parts with smaller oil passages may suffer as well in the long run leading to a total breakdown or more damaged engine.
I've owned a few busted buckets in my days, and I've tried about all that stuff. I even used the little metallic pellets that JC Whitney sells. There is no replacement for an overhaul/rebuild. Once it's worn, it's gone. All you can do is keep it tuned up as best as possible until you rebuild or replace.
SQLThump on 08/24/2007 20:33:12
Ok ash, thanks for tyhe info. Maybe I will reconsider that Restore can.
What was up with the little mettallic pellets? That sounds dangerous!
swez on 08/24/2007 21:28:07
Ahhh, good ol Rislone Marvel Mystery Oil... I used that many a time on sticky valves and such many years ago. Not sure what's in it, but a few good wiffs would probably show it's kerosene, toluene and a few other petrol based products.
Here's what I see so far, as the gas tank is getting closer to empty, (like 4-5 gallons left now) the car still idles fine, has more sputter at accelleration but runs smoothly while maintaining steady speeds. (25-70 MPH) I took a few turns to see how that might affect performance and it only does sputter on sharp turns under accelleration. (The fuel shifts away from the low spot in the tank and high water content is drawn into the fuel pump and into the injectors... hense, she sputters pretty good)
Water is more dense than gasoline and tends to stay low in the tank sump. So, when the tank get lower in good fuel, the fuel pump pulls more water and mixes with gas to chug and sputter. (Makes sense huh?) Right now, there's probably a good amount of water and alcohol in this remaining gas, that it does not have enough fresh gas to run well under a load. (Accelleration specifically)
Well, am going to drain the tank this weekend and install a new inline fuel filter and blow out the lines too. Hopefully, that combination works and the problem is solved.
Finally, have done a fair amount of reading up on this one and have learned that many bad things happen to gasoline as it ages and takes on water. (Condensations and the like) The chemical changes that take place in the additives used, make matters worse and the ECM/MAF will try to adjust for them to a degree. But there is a point when the only real fix is to drain the tank and clear out the lines and filters. It's a PITA to be sure, but since this car has run flawlessly until this last tank of gas, it's reasonable to start there first.
Swez
PS I don't think "Restore" will be a big help here. I have a good, steady idle and plenty of power before this event came along. It uses 10W30 oil and does not leak fluids when parked. That Sea Foam may be a good idea as I have noted a noisy lifter or two when the engine is cold, but it goes away after the engine warns up. I see a steady 30 lbs of oil pressure at a warm idle and above 60 lbs at crusing speeds. That tells me the oil pump and circulation system is OK. (If there was a leak or bad rings, these numbers would be much lower)
trunkisloud on 08/24/2007 22:59:06
this whole situation reminds me of an issue that my dad had back in the day with carbeureted engines......the gas would heat up too much before it got to the carb....."vapor lock"....so a few clothespins on the fuel line absorbed the heat and cooled the fuel...back to normal.....but the car showed similar symptoms as this situation.....just a thought...also i found a few links i thought were interesting ...dont know if it really pertains to this but i thought it was cool
http://www.alpharubicon.com/altenergy/gaslifepal.htm
http://theepicenter.com/tow021799.html
swez on 08/25/2007 08:28:59
Thanks fopr the FYI's guys. These two links above correspond well to what I have learned through other research methods too.
As I look back a few months, one local station I have used periodically, put some gas in the tank and also in a 5 gallon plastic gas can. Noted the distinct odor of "kerosene" in that gas can. I did use it to power the lawnmower and weed whacker and it performed adequately in each case.
After a month of normal storage, (In garage, at ambient temps and humidity) wanted to get fresh gas and just dumped about 2.5 gallons into the car's tank and refilled a smaller container later with fresh fuel. (No kerosene smells this time though) Shortly after that event, the car began to show signs mentioned before until a fresh fill up. After the fill, the symptoms went away until a few weeks ago.
This leads me to consider that this "mentioned gas" was below standards in octane for car use, but adequate for less demanding engines like the lawnmower. (Hum, interesting series of connect the dots here huh?)
Well, this weekend is set aside for draining the gas tank and inspecting the fuel system, changing the fuel filter and clearing the lines. Will look at the "vapor lock" issues as well. That could also be part of the mix as the exhaust pipe runs below the tank and near the fuel lines that feed up to the engine as well. While I'm at it, will look for the Sea Foam product and give it a try with fresh gas ect.
Swez
PS I want to thank all that have participated in this little "gremlin hunt" so far. Hopefully, this is a simple case of stale fuel and perhaps a clogged fuel filter. Will keep ya'll posted as I learn more.
swez on 08/25/2007 09:04:02
On the topic of "Vapor Lock", that's been pretty much fixed and a thing of the past now that most modern cars "push gas" under pressure from the fuel pump, (In tank) and a return line for excess gas. This recirculation process chills the gas and it remain in a liquid state at all times and cannot turn gassous and create vapor lock under these conditions.
Older cars had this problem when using "sucking" fuel pumps that ran off the camshaft and fuel lines near the engine would get hot and boil the liquid gasoline into a gas. This was a notable problem in mid-80's cars and earlier. Some were really notorious too. (Chrysler products and some Ford & GM cars had it bad) The fix is to re-route fuel lines away from heat or install heat shields to minimize these problems.
http://www.misterfixit.com/vaprlock.htm
Swez SMILE
swez on 08/25/2007 22:03:42
OK, finally had a dry day to work on the old GHB. I managed to empty out about 4-5 gallons of fuel in the tank and noted the color was a milky off white and smelled a bit off as well.
Took the fuel line apart at the inline filter and just cranked the starter and fed the old gas through the old filter until there's about 2 gallons left in the tank. The filter was a bit clogged as fuel pressure was a tad low, so I also installed a fresh filter too. After hooking things back up and such, the car did idle smoother and fresh gas pending tomorrow. (No misses at the tail pipe either) YIPPY!!! HAPPY
Boy, those speed clips on these GM fiters are a pain after others have narled up the connecting hoses. (PITA!!!) Someone did replace this filter before I got this car and hacked them up a bit. (Arrg)
Did find a place that carries Sea Foam too. A 16 oz can is $7.00 and I plan to add that to the fresh gas and a few ounces in the crank case too. It seems this product is pretty good for cleaning fuel injectors and removing water from the gas tank and also good at reducing carbon and such in the heads, sticky lifters and helps free up sticky rings too.
Hum, that's a lot of fix for such a small price, if it works as well as the can states. Thanks for the tip there Ash!!! We'll give er a try. Hopefully a fresh tank of gas is all that is needed now. We'll know soon.
FYI: Oil pressure is very good and she idles very well at 650 RPM in drive. At idle, I see about 40 PSI and at 2,000 RPM, (~70 MPH) it's more like 80 PSI. For an older engine, these are solid numbers. That tells me the heads and pistons are doing a good job and sealing pretty well. (That's good news)
Swez
PS Well, it's 10:00 PM and 5 + hours of jumping around has pooped me out. Going to bed and dream about burning rubber on this old GHB. LOL
GHB = Ghetto Hoopty Bucket... got that one from SPLThump and it fits to a tee. hehe Good night all...ZZzz
cplkittle on 08/26/2007 00:33:25
fixing gas prices? who would do such a thing???
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070822/ap_on_bi_ge/gas_station_lawsuit_5
Swez, my suggestion is to fill 'er up with premium and a quart of regular mineral spirits (the only ingredient in most octane boosters and fuel injector cleaners).
Take her out to one of those long straight michigan roads and open 'er up to blow out the soot.
speaking of michigan, I am in fremont right now, and will be leaving for georgia in the morning. not looking foreward to that 13hr drive.
SQLThump on 08/26/2007 02:16:04
Glad to see that the GHB is treating you better after the round of repairs. It just sems to fit the older Buick of our age range. Especially that paint quaility. My car is getting worse by the day. STUPID RUST!!!!!!!
Ash on 08/26/2007 08:21:19
Looks like you may have found the problem. Good!
To get the best results, look to run a couple of more cans, adding one to the next fill-up. The other can should be used in the vacuum hose routine like an induction cleaning. Through the gas tank, it must be regimined several times.
If you do the vacuum hose treatment (stated on can), you might want to pull the spark plugs and clean or replace them afterwards. They will soot up a bit. This one works best to remove carbon effectively. Don't get scared of the smoke it will produce... It will look like you have blown a head gasket or something, but all it's doing is blowing out carbon and the chemical. Pretty fun to watch though!
After that, take it on a simple road trip where you can maintain a good speed to blow out any remaining gunk out of the upper cyclinders with the treated gas tank.
Hope this helps,
swez on 08/26/2007 09:42:36
Check on the higher octane fuel ... that was the plan.
Have done that dropping engine cleaner into the carb on a much older car and she smoked like coal fired power plant. It left a nice soot mark on the driveway by the tail pipe too. (Dad made me clean it up too) ;-)
Don't think I'd go that route on this one as it will foul the plugs and might damage the O2 sensor and mess up the computer readings. (That's out and not really needed either)
"Blowing out the carbon" is easy... just drop the tranny into 2nd gear on the highway. At 55 MPH, the RPM's are 3,500 or so and that's plenty good and no concerns about getting a speeding ticket either.
GRIN
Long drive home there Kit... Hope you have a fat wallet for gas. We're close to $3.00 a gallon this weekend. As you get into OH or IN, the prices should drop by a dime or more. Have a safe trip home.
Gas prices are a shell game at best. The mainline suppliers like Shell and BP are generally 5-10 cents higher than local abd independent owner stations. However, quality controls at independent stations are iffy at times. They may sell for a dime cheaper, but the performance levels are not always up to minimum specifications. (Lower octane and old fuels) They often buy what is left over in a tanker truck that has been on the road for over a week. (If not more) With the blends and oxidation process, one might find stale gas in a little as 10-15 days after it left the refinery. It's amazing what one can learn through research on the Internet.
Anyway, thank you all for the inputs and such. That's what I really like about this little community we have at CK... a lot of helpful guys that have a wide range of experience in many areas in life. You guys are the "BEST" !!!
Swez
swez on 08/29/2007 09:17:05
Well, am happy to report the ol GHB is purring like a happy kitten again. The root cause appears to have been bad gas and that in turn, fouled the spark plugs as well.
Drained the tank to clear it of bad fuel and sure enough, it had a milky white tinge and low octane too. That prompted a change of the inline fuel filter as well. Took it out for a hop and noted a miss under acceleration and thought... let's have a look at the plugs and wires.
Sure enough, each plug was coated with grayish-white deposits and only had about 8,000 miles on them. So, gave em the wire wheel treatment, re-gapped to specs and Viola, idles smoothly and another test hop. This time, no misses, strong acceleration and no sputters. Ahhh, HAPPY Camper again.
One more thing while I was in there, took out the blower motor, Mounted to firewall) and cleaned out the blower cage and filter. Had a lot of debris built up and air flow was not up to snuff. These are a PITA to work on as this is a tight fit. It was worth the effort though. AC/heater air flows are good and strong again.
All is well again... and my arms look like I had a tussle with a cat and lost.. hehe GRIN
Swez
swez on 08/29/2007 16:28:39
Bump ^
Thanks for the helpful tips guys. Next step, a can of Sea Foam to fully clear the injectors and upper half of the engine too.
Swez
SQLThump on 08/29/2007 19:48:23
Very glad to see this paned out for you. I may have to try a few of these, especially the blower motor.
swez on 08/30/2007 07:29:56
It works best with hot water and perhaps a few good shots of "Simple Green" to degrease the compartment and make things smell fresh and clean when done.
If the drain ports are badly clogged, you may see wet carpeting after the job is done. Have a shop vac handy for such things, so be ready for that possibility. (Mine got pretty wet and the rear flooring got a good soaking) Get out the shop vac...
Also, there is a filter element inside the cowling that leads into the interior air ducts. They can get pretty clogged up and low air flows are a sign this filter is plugged w/ debris. When cleaned well, you should notice considerable air flow improvements from the dash ducts. There's a good test to tell if the job was successful:
1. Tape a piece of tissue paper to one of the AC ducts in the dash
2. Turn on the AC blower and observe the tissue paper action
3. Clean the blower housing as noted
4. When all is reassembled, observe the tissue action again
If the filter was plugged up, the tissue paper will flutter a lot more and it will be very obvious that you got the job done. In my case, the airflow improvement was very noticable. (30-40% more airflow now)
Have fun getting the blower motor out of its mount. It's a tight fit on GM cars and I had to remove the upper crossbar stabilizer and the rear engine lift brackets as well.
FYI: There is one electrical plug to the blower motor and a short rubber hose that helps keep the blower motor cool as well. Make sure you remove these before pulling the blower motor for cleaning. (I was a bit careless about where I set that little hose and while cleaning), I blew it down into the lower suspension. It took me an hour to find it and I got a wet face in the process. (Had to jack up one side of the car to get that far back too)
Don't make that mistake OK? (Arggg)
Swez
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