Hello all, I am new to the forums and hoping to get some professional opinions. I am young and starting out with my first real system. I just recently bought my first car, a 2000 Ford Taurus and with the help of my father installed an Alpine CDA-9883 head unit. Its all wired up and working awsome. Next, I am hoping to get a woofer in the trunk. After some research and recommendations, I have settled on getting a single 12" Type-R Alpine sub and installing it in a ported enclosure. I have read that it is a good sub, and will last long.
Heres the problem:
What do I need amp wise?
I am hoping to get a 2 channel amp so I can install a second Type-R down the road when money becomes available. However, I have a question.. Can I install a mono amp and run 2 subs off of it once I have them both? Im really new to car audio, and need some guidance on whats good and whats bad.
I was looking at the SoundStorm 2F1600 2 Channel amp. What do you think, good or bad? Im on an extremely tight budget, looking to spend no more than $150. Im looking for good sound, but not over the top. Im not going to be in any shows or anything soon, and by no means an audiophile. I just want nice bass, enough to drive the Type-R and possibly a second later on. I like alot of bass, enough to draw attention but not vibrate my car apart. If not the SoundStorm, any reccomendations that would work good with the Type-R but stay with in my budget?
Heres the sub specs:
• Frequency Response: 25Hz - 500Hz
Dimensions
• Added Volume: 0.085 cu. ft. (Reverse Mount, Magnet Out)
• Displacement: 0.071 cu. ft (Front Mount)
• Mounting Diameter: 275 mm (10.9'')
• Mounting Depth: 195 mm (7.7'')
Power Handling
• Peak Power Handling: 1500 Watts
• RMS Power Handling: 500 Watts
• Power Range: 200 - 500 Watts
And the SoundStorm amp:
1600W, 2 Channel MOSFET Bridgeable Amplifier, High/Low X-over, With Remote Subwoofer Level Control
· Tri-mode operation
· Bridgeable
· 2 Ohm Stereo Stable
· Variable low pass crossover: 40-150Hz
· Fixed high pass crossover (200Hz)
· Variable 0 to +18dB Bass Boost
· Variable input gain control
· Power and protection LED indicators
· Thermal, overload and speaker short protection
· Line and speaker level inputs
· Chrome plated RCA connectors and screw terminals
· Remote subwoofer level control
· Frequency response: 9Hz - 50kHz (+/- 3dB)
Max power 2 ohm
800W X 2
RMS power 4 ohm
300W X 2
Bridged power
1600W X 1
Signal-to-noise ratio
103dB
THD at RMS output
0.01%
Damping factor
125+
Dimensions
(10” W x 2-5/8” H x 16-3/8” L)
I think that would be good, but I'm worried quality-wise. If its bad, anyone have recomendations for a price of less than $150?
Sub:
http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/products/product.php?model=SWR-1242D
Head Unit:
http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/products/product.php?model=CDA-9883
(Yikes, wall of text.)
Thank you!
Replies (23)
Joeniel on 08/4/2007 23:39:24
Sorry about the spelling and grammar, it's late and im tired lol :)
trunkisloud on 08/5/2007 00:19:08
assuming that you will have the dvc4ohm instead of the 2ohm sub..you willl want a 1ohm stable amp here.....that soundstorm just wont cut it. i believe those subs are around 500wrms correct? if so then i think this amp here might be of interest...its a little over your budget price mentioned above but if you shop around you can find it cheaper....theres also others out there that would do the job in this price range too....but this is what came to mind for your project.
http://ikesound.com/product-product_id/6044
trunkisloud on 08/5/2007 00:21:55
when only using a single 4 ohm sub...you could get 2 ohms which will give you 700wrms off this amp........add another 4ohm sub to the mix and you can drop the load down to 1ohm to roll with 1000rms...
welcome to the show
kirchatndftbl on 08/5/2007 00:30:56
an amp for these subs you would want to go with a class D mono amp instead of a 2 channel.. the sound storm amp would only give each sub ~300 rms which is underpowering these subs
(subs)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_4281_Alpine+SWR-1242D+-TYPE+R-.html
(amp)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_9551_Hifonics+TXi1008D.html
would be a good sql setup
wire subs parrellel to the amp for a net 1 ohm load
http://img42.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2dvcvcparallelsubs6dq.jpg
Ash on 08/5/2007 00:38:14
Welcome! Glad that you have found us. You will like the help here as we are very courteous, don't flame, yell, nor cuss. This we expect of others as well because it's the general rule.
Looks like you have some nice stuff there already. Both Alpine's are very good units. I am concerned about the choice of amp you're choosing....
Soundstorm is not one of those brands that are true in power ratings and will be much of a disappointment. There are other amps that will suffice if you can find them in that range (sales, closeouts, and clearances). So keep looking. We can help you find what you need. The key here is making sure that it has the appropriate power supply. One way is to check the fuse rating for the specified amp. If your looking for about 500 watts continuous (real rating, not peak), then the amp should have at least a 40-60 amp fuse. The higher is characteristic of less efficient power supply. Too low of a fuse (20-30) and it's most likely false!
A good class D mono block amp will be more efficient and should handle at least 2 ohms (a pair of 4 ohm sub. Running two of the Alpine subs will call for some serious power (1000 watts rms!). That's entering into the competition arena.... If you stick with the single sub it is possible to find a good bridgeable 2 channel amp with enough power.
If your buying off the net, then chances are you might be able to find one. Right now it's getting late. Be patient and someone may be able to come across with something.
Ash on 08/5/2007 07:58:25
Okay, had to get a little sleep in last night.. was getting way too groggy on this post.
I think I might have one for you. Since this is a dual voice coil that will attain a 2 ohm load, a class D amp will do good. This Kenwood is an nice performer with decent features (there is no fan, misprint). Plus it's way in your budget. I've dealt with this seller a few times and never had a problem.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-07-KENWOOD-KAC-8103D-1000-WATT-MONO-POWER-AMPLIFIER_W0QQitemZ180144402694QQihZ008QQcategoryZ64570QQtcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
We have to be real at the same time. $150 isn't going to net real 1000 watt amp to run two subs. At least not new. I think you will be satisfied with one 12", especially in a ported enclosure.
Joeniel on 08/5/2007 09:34:31
Wow, thanks alot every one!
Ok.. I think maybe we need to straighten one thing out.. at the moment, I do not have the Alpine sub yet, or the enclosure or anything haveing to do with them, except the head unit. I guess that there may be a slight chance that I can change what sub I get, if anyone can convince me :) I like subs that pound!
Ok.. now back to the amp thing...
Ash: I have a question, (maybe anyone can answer) you say that that amp has no fan.. I talked to one kid at Best Buy, and he said one thing with amps is to always get one that has a fan so you dont have to worry about over heating and stuff.. will that ever happen with that amp? I'm also worried that you can not make returns to that seller, and theres is no store warranty.
Thanks!
swez on 08/5/2007 09:39:38
Welcome to CK! Nice post and very complete too. We rarely see such well detailed info from regulars, much less new guys.
Sound Storm, (Not to be confused with Sound Stream) is a low budget supplier who tends to inflate their specs to levels that lack credibility. They are fair in performance, but since you have plans for quality gear already, save up cash and buy quality amps to compliment your other gear.
As for the Alpine SWR series subs, these are very good quality for the price. Frankly, most guys like them best in sealed boxes for the tight, crisp bass they deliver. They are rated at 500 watts RMS per sub and have good efficiency, so a solid amp is recommended. These come in 2 flavors:
1. 4+4 DVC's 1242 (Dual Voice Coils)
2. 2+2 DVC's 1222
Performance and power ratings are the same, but plan ahead carefully on the amp you choose.
Frankly, a single 12 and 500 RMS power are plenty for most guys. When moving up to dual subs and a 1000 watt RMS amp, you're looking at expensive electrical upgrades too. A High Output Alternator, battery upgrades and heavier wiring under the hood are needed. (That's about $500.00 more to spend + the amp and subs) Keep that in mind as you plan your system needs.
As you get more into this project, it will become evident that the HU amps won't keep up well with a 500 watt sub. (Bass heavy) This HU delivers 18 watts RMS x 4 to your speakers. Amping them as well, will be in the future and stock speakers will have to be replaced as well.
Keep all this detail handy as you plan. Much of the upgrades can be done in stages and that will be easier on the wallet too.
OK, knowing all this in advance, plan for the future and also the present. Think things over and set your priorities first. Once you have a game plan, come back and we'll give you some product recommendations that will serve today's needs and upgrades can be added in time.
Swez USFLAG
Ash on 08/5/2007 10:14:17
Good point there Swez!
Joeniel, most amps don't have fans because their heatsinks are designed to dissipate the heat. Usually, very high power/ high current amps have them when they are necessary. That should not be a concern.
If your worried about warranties and customer service problems, then the next solution will work. This setup is relatively inexpensive, and performs. It will blend in easily with speakers running off a HU or amp as well:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-646
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-550
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=269-166
Throw in the free shipping and you can't lose with the value. A wiring kit should put you in the ballpark of about $240. The subs are tried and true. I have used several of the Dayton brand and they still are my favorite to play with. Not to mention Partsexpress has one of the best customer service you could ever deal with.
Joeniel on 08/5/2007 11:53:28
Ok so tell me this..
Alpine: 750w RMS 2000peak
Dayton: 200w RMS 400peak
Will the Dayton's pound as hard as the alpines, and not go out after like 2 months? I like bass, and alot of it.. I'm young and I like bass, I want to be able to compete with my friends (we all want to have the better system).. I'm worried that those are cheap ($50ea vs $200ea). I want quality that will last, not go out after a year. Ive never heard of Buttkicker either for an amp, and only $20 for an enclosure? Ported vs sealed... I heard ported produces more boominess, which is kind of what I want.
Comments plz! If those Daytons are quality, will last, and give me good bass comparable to the more expensive brands, then I'm all for them.
Thanks!
Ash on 08/5/2007 12:18:06
Funny thing is that box is a good match sealed or ported. There is enough room to put ports in them and still be right at the recommended ported box for them. So that is not a problem. I do have a problem going ported in the trunk however, unless you can vent them into the cab directly.
We are comparing apples and oranges here in power requirements, but I don't think a company would give a crappy product a 5 year warranty. They would lose money. I have owned and installed several Dayton subwoofers, including those. They are solid, efficient performers and all who I have installed them for are deeply satisfied. If you want to "boom" very loud, then a bigger budget is definitely in order.
The prices are hard to believe, huh? Well Partsexpress does a lot of buyouts from manufacturers closeouts and pass them onto the consumer for a little extra. If you don't believe the products are good, then read the reviews on the products listed page. I have three of the amps in my living room right now, waiting for new projects. No lie!
If your looking for a lot of slam, have you ever thought about a bandpass? I just got through building a test model 12" sealed rear. It is pretty darn loud for 250 watts continuous. The box is large (2.4 ft^3) somewhat but output is good and without muddiness. It is not a one note box either! I concentrated the range between 39hz to 80hz.
The key is efficiency and custom building. No prefabs here. I'm quite sure we can help you on that as well. I, for one, experiment on real world budget setups because where I live, they want it loud, yet don't have the grands to spend. So I try to come up with inexpensive combos that will work. Usually, that calls for using products that most never heard of. No, they are not the absolute best, but they are quite impressive in performance!
swez on 08/5/2007 16:34:12
Parts Express is a very good ploace to browse and shop for hardware and some of the speakers they carry are indeed top notch. Yes, they also have low budget, low performance products too. But that is to suit the needs of many low budget replacements and people who are not afraid to tinker.
As Ash mentioned, sealed boxes in trunk mounts are actually a benefit to avoid excessive boominess and muddled bass which is common to most trunk mounded sub installs. To get more bass into the cabin, if you have flip down rear seat(s), that helps a great deal. If not, some either live with the trade offs or cut air vents between the trunk and cabin to bring more bass inside the cabin.
As for the Alpine subs, they are very good SQL subs. SQL means that Sound Quality is very good and offers high SPL as well. (SPL is how much sound pressure, [perceived loudness] one can get with a given setup.
I cannot stress enough, the power draw factor that large sub/full range amps require. In a typical vehicle, we have a stock ALT/BAT that are mated to the car's needs and about 30% reserve power for add ons. An example may help:
Stock system: 100A ALT; 650 CCA rated battery is very common
At idle speeds, the ALT can produce about 60A's of current as needed to run all the key electrical gear in a vehicle. As the engine RPM climbs above about 2,000 RPM, the ALT spins faster and can provide more power if needed. Below that RPM, the ALT will struggle to produce adequate power when we add large audio amplifiers to a given stock system.
OK, a 1000 watt Class D sub amp will often draw between 60-75A's of current when we crank up the bass. The power draw is dependent on the type of music we listen to and the ohmic load the amp is trying to
supply. (1 or 2 ohm loads are common for subs)
Now, if the electrical system tops out at 100A's and the amp pulls say 70A's, what will happen to the rest of the vehicle's needs for power?
Here's how it works:
That only leave 30A's to feed the car needs off the ALT. The rest will come from the battery. We often note light dimming, AC/Heater blowers will slow down and other car electricals will be starving for power too. That means the ALT not only has to power the basic electronics inside the car and feed the amps, but it must now recharge the battery all at the same time. Do this for a long time and we often get a ALT failure. (AKA the ALT has heart failure and quits)
When the ALT takes a dive, your car is now running only off the BAT. It won't take long to deplete the battery reserves and the car will eventually lose power and stall out. (Now, you're stuck somewhere, needing a jump/charge and hopefully close enough to limp home on battery power alone)
Do you see the picture more clearly now? Yes, this is a worst case senario, but it happens regularly when guys play their systems hard for extended periods of time. We know there is a problem when the voltage gage or a dummy light alert come on. By then, it's almost too late. If we are lucky and turn off the audio gear, we may have enough battery reserves to limp home.
How to avoid all this?
1. Use our gear wisely (Common sense)
2. Upgrade the electrical system to meet new power demands (Expensive)
3. Choose gear to fit what the car can safely provide (More common sense)
Here's a few things to chew on: (I always use RMS/Continous watts)
1. A 500 watt system will draw a tad under 40A's current at full power and a stock electrical system can manage that well enough
2. If we jump to 1000 watts, our power consumption doubles but we get about 3-5 more dB of bass (That is just barely above audible to the human ear)
3. We can use high efficiency subs and enclosures and reduce amp power draw and still get very high SPL numbers (BP and Ported box)
OK, this is just a primer for ya. Think about your long-term goals and if you find that going to a very strong system is in the cards, put cash aside for electrical upgrades that are needed to run such rigs. If you note major light dimming problems when the system is installed, this is the first clue you need more power to run the gear. (No, a Surge Cap will not fix chronic power deficiencies)
Print this info out and show it to your father. He is older and wiser and will probably understand the details and can help you sort out your options.
Swez
PS Dayton subs are very good products when used as designed. A pair of 10's or 12's ported/sealed and 500 watts of power to them will be pretty solid bass. I'm not pushing them here, nor the Buttkicker amp, but for a low budget system, Dayton Quatro's make for a lot of bass. (But they are not in the same power class as Alpine SWR's)
trunkisloud on 08/5/2007 16:52:03
if he is new to car audio.....how can we expect him to construct an enclosure that matches the daytons to spec.?? Im not saying he's incapable but chances are he hasnt had much experience building boxes ...especially to specification.....wouldnt the best option be for him to run a single sub that can handle decent power in a box that can produce lots of bass....??...besides i saw the swr online for less than 100 bucks....then he would not need a massive amp that would require electrical upgrades...
swez on 08/5/2007 17:52:50
TIL, You just summarized my whole point! But, at the same time, the whys and wherefores are not explained. (I took the liberty to explain in detail since he is new)
1 strong, efficient sub
1 medium powered amp (500 RMS is plenty)
An efficient enclosure if more SPL is desired than typical Sealed or Ported enclosures are not sufficient (BP, if one likes that option)
Thanks for keeping it simple.... COFFEE
Swez
trunkisloud on 08/5/2007 18:12:47
uh...yea.... i meant to do that...hehe
swez on 08/5/2007 22:22:11
Hehe... when I get bored, it's fun to type. Sort of like thinking out loud is all. Nice that you already know this stuff.... ;-)
Swez
PS Yes, I am a bit bored this weekend. (Can ya tell?)
Ash on 08/6/2007 08:52:40
I couldn't have said it any better Swez.
Joeniel, the difference between 400 and 500 watts is very minor. What really makes the difference here is usable cone area, stroke, and efficiency. Tha'ts all that I'm implying. There is no need to build an enclosure as the one I posted in the links is recommended.
It is totally up to you, but just remember: "To play, sometimes you have to pay!"
Joeniel on 08/6/2007 15:51:32
Thanks alot! I think ive decided on just going with a single Alpine Type R in a ported enclosure with the Kenwood amp...
NOW: What about wiring? Any particular brand or is a wire a wire? Do I need a wiring kit for the amp as well as the sub, or is it just one general kit?
Thanks for the input everyone!
swez on 08/6/2007 20:15:06
That would be the SWR-1242D and Kenwood KAC-8103D right? If yes, solid choices here.
Wire and hardware needed can be obtained from several good brands:
Stinger
Streetwires
Knukonceptz
Monster Cable
Here, your main power line will be #4 gage line. You'll also need 1pair of RCA cable, an inline fuse and some hardware parts to connect your wire to the BAT terminal.
I happen to like Knukonceptz products and have used them on several installs too. Good quality, fair prices and easy to use in most cases too.
www.knukonceptz.com
Swez
Joeniel on 08/7/2007 15:42:11
Another question: Do I need a capacitor? If so, what kind? I dont even know what to look for in a capacitor...
Ash on 08/7/2007 16:16:50
No caps! They are a waste of money. You shouldn't be pull that much juice. I would do a Big 3 upgrade and then maybe a optima (or similar) battery if needed.
Joeniel on 08/7/2007 18:06:45
Big 3?
How much is that gonna cost me?...
swez on 08/7/2007 19:32:27
The B3 is medium cheap... just some #4 wire (8-12 ft) and termination hardware is all that is needed. It's mostly labor and easy to do if you follow this guys lead:
http://www.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/312025/page/1#Post312025
It's nice to use good terminal blocks off the BAT rather than stock.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productMaster.cfm?Category=Battery%20Terminals
But this method shows more expensive blocks. There are cheaper methods, but don't look as nice.
http://www.wiringproducts.com/?target=dept_44.html&gclid=CJ6Tw5_G5I0CFREDWAodWzF80g
http://www.wiringproducts.com/?target=dept_44.html&gclid=CJ6Tw5_G5I0CFREDWAodWzF80g
Swez
PS Can get most of these at a good autoparts store or local car audio shops.
Heres the problem:
What do I need amp wise?
I am hoping to get a 2 channel amp so I can install a second Type-R down the road when money becomes available. However, I have a question.. Can I install a mono amp and run 2 subs off of it once I have them both? Im really new to car audio, and need some guidance on whats good and whats bad.
I was looking at the SoundStorm 2F1600 2 Channel amp. What do you think, good or bad? Im on an extremely tight budget, looking to spend no more than $150. Im looking for good sound, but not over the top. Im not going to be in any shows or anything soon, and by no means an audiophile. I just want nice bass, enough to drive the Type-R and possibly a second later on. I like alot of bass, enough to draw attention but not vibrate my car apart. If not the SoundStorm, any reccomendations that would work good with the Type-R but stay with in my budget?
Heres the sub specs:
• Frequency Response: 25Hz - 500Hz
Dimensions
• Added Volume: 0.085 cu. ft. (Reverse Mount, Magnet Out)
• Displacement: 0.071 cu. ft (Front Mount)
• Mounting Diameter: 275 mm (10.9'')
• Mounting Depth: 195 mm (7.7'')
Power Handling
• Peak Power Handling: 1500 Watts
• RMS Power Handling: 500 Watts
• Power Range: 200 - 500 Watts
And the SoundStorm amp:
1600W, 2 Channel MOSFET Bridgeable Amplifier, High/Low X-over, With Remote Subwoofer Level Control
· Tri-mode operation
· Bridgeable
· 2 Ohm Stereo Stable
· Variable low pass crossover: 40-150Hz
· Fixed high pass crossover (200Hz)
· Variable 0 to +18dB Bass Boost
· Variable input gain control
· Power and protection LED indicators
· Thermal, overload and speaker short protection
· Line and speaker level inputs
· Chrome plated RCA connectors and screw terminals
· Remote subwoofer level control
· Frequency response: 9Hz - 50kHz (+/- 3dB)
Max power 2 ohm
800W X 2
RMS power 4 ohm
300W X 2
Bridged power
1600W X 1
Signal-to-noise ratio
103dB
THD at RMS output
0.01%
Damping factor
125+
Dimensions
(10” W x 2-5/8” H x 16-3/8” L)
I think that would be good, but I'm worried quality-wise. If its bad, anyone have recomendations for a price of less than $150?
Sub:
http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/products/product.php?model=SWR-1242D
Head Unit:
http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/products/product.php?model=CDA-9883
(Yikes, wall of text.)
Thank you!
Replies (23)
Joeniel on 08/4/2007 23:39:24
Sorry about the spelling and grammar, it's late and im tired lol :)
trunkisloud on 08/5/2007 00:19:08
assuming that you will have the dvc4ohm instead of the 2ohm sub..you willl want a 1ohm stable amp here.....that soundstorm just wont cut it. i believe those subs are around 500wrms correct? if so then i think this amp here might be of interest...its a little over your budget price mentioned above but if you shop around you can find it cheaper....theres also others out there that would do the job in this price range too....but this is what came to mind for your project.
http://ikesound.com/product-product_id/6044
trunkisloud on 08/5/2007 00:21:55
when only using a single 4 ohm sub...you could get 2 ohms which will give you 700wrms off this amp........add another 4ohm sub to the mix and you can drop the load down to 1ohm to roll with 1000rms...
welcome to the show
kirchatndftbl on 08/5/2007 00:30:56
an amp for these subs you would want to go with a class D mono amp instead of a 2 channel.. the sound storm amp would only give each sub ~300 rms which is underpowering these subs
(subs)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_4281_Alpine+SWR-1242D+-TYPE+R-.html
(amp)
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_9551_Hifonics+TXi1008D.html
would be a good sql setup
wire subs parrellel to the amp for a net 1 ohm load
http://img42.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2dvcvcparallelsubs6dq.jpg
Ash on 08/5/2007 00:38:14
Welcome! Glad that you have found us. You will like the help here as we are very courteous, don't flame, yell, nor cuss. This we expect of others as well because it's the general rule.
Looks like you have some nice stuff there already. Both Alpine's are very good units. I am concerned about the choice of amp you're choosing....
Soundstorm is not one of those brands that are true in power ratings and will be much of a disappointment. There are other amps that will suffice if you can find them in that range (sales, closeouts, and clearances). So keep looking. We can help you find what you need. The key here is making sure that it has the appropriate power supply. One way is to check the fuse rating for the specified amp. If your looking for about 500 watts continuous (real rating, not peak), then the amp should have at least a 40-60 amp fuse. The higher is characteristic of less efficient power supply. Too low of a fuse (20-30) and it's most likely false!
A good class D mono block amp will be more efficient and should handle at least 2 ohms (a pair of 4 ohm sub. Running two of the Alpine subs will call for some serious power (1000 watts rms!). That's entering into the competition arena.... If you stick with the single sub it is possible to find a good bridgeable 2 channel amp with enough power.
If your buying off the net, then chances are you might be able to find one. Right now it's getting late. Be patient and someone may be able to come across with something.
Ash on 08/5/2007 07:58:25
Okay, had to get a little sleep in last night.. was getting way too groggy on this post.
I think I might have one for you. Since this is a dual voice coil that will attain a 2 ohm load, a class D amp will do good. This Kenwood is an nice performer with decent features (there is no fan, misprint). Plus it's way in your budget. I've dealt with this seller a few times and never had a problem.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-07-KENWOOD-KAC-8103D-1000-WATT-MONO-POWER-AMPLIFIER_W0QQitemZ180144402694QQihZ008QQcategoryZ64570QQtcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
We have to be real at the same time. $150 isn't going to net real 1000 watt amp to run two subs. At least not new. I think you will be satisfied with one 12", especially in a ported enclosure.
Joeniel on 08/5/2007 09:34:31
Wow, thanks alot every one!
Ok.. I think maybe we need to straighten one thing out.. at the moment, I do not have the Alpine sub yet, or the enclosure or anything haveing to do with them, except the head unit. I guess that there may be a slight chance that I can change what sub I get, if anyone can convince me :) I like subs that pound!
Ok.. now back to the amp thing...
Ash: I have a question, (maybe anyone can answer) you say that that amp has no fan.. I talked to one kid at Best Buy, and he said one thing with amps is to always get one that has a fan so you dont have to worry about over heating and stuff.. will that ever happen with that amp? I'm also worried that you can not make returns to that seller, and theres is no store warranty.
Thanks!
swez on 08/5/2007 09:39:38
Welcome to CK! Nice post and very complete too. We rarely see such well detailed info from regulars, much less new guys.
Sound Storm, (Not to be confused with Sound Stream) is a low budget supplier who tends to inflate their specs to levels that lack credibility. They are fair in performance, but since you have plans for quality gear already, save up cash and buy quality amps to compliment your other gear.
As for the Alpine SWR series subs, these are very good quality for the price. Frankly, most guys like them best in sealed boxes for the tight, crisp bass they deliver. They are rated at 500 watts RMS per sub and have good efficiency, so a solid amp is recommended. These come in 2 flavors:
1. 4+4 DVC's 1242 (Dual Voice Coils)
2. 2+2 DVC's 1222
Performance and power ratings are the same, but plan ahead carefully on the amp you choose.
Frankly, a single 12 and 500 RMS power are plenty for most guys. When moving up to dual subs and a 1000 watt RMS amp, you're looking at expensive electrical upgrades too. A High Output Alternator, battery upgrades and heavier wiring under the hood are needed. (That's about $500.00 more to spend + the amp and subs) Keep that in mind as you plan your system needs.
As you get more into this project, it will become evident that the HU amps won't keep up well with a 500 watt sub. (Bass heavy) This HU delivers 18 watts RMS x 4 to your speakers. Amping them as well, will be in the future and stock speakers will have to be replaced as well.
Keep all this detail handy as you plan. Much of the upgrades can be done in stages and that will be easier on the wallet too.
OK, knowing all this in advance, plan for the future and also the present. Think things over and set your priorities first. Once you have a game plan, come back and we'll give you some product recommendations that will serve today's needs and upgrades can be added in time.
Swez USFLAG
Ash on 08/5/2007 10:14:17
Good point there Swez!
Joeniel, most amps don't have fans because their heatsinks are designed to dissipate the heat. Usually, very high power/ high current amps have them when they are necessary. That should not be a concern.
If your worried about warranties and customer service problems, then the next solution will work. This setup is relatively inexpensive, and performs. It will blend in easily with speakers running off a HU or amp as well:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-646
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-550
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=269-166
Throw in the free shipping and you can't lose with the value. A wiring kit should put you in the ballpark of about $240. The subs are tried and true. I have used several of the Dayton brand and they still are my favorite to play with. Not to mention Partsexpress has one of the best customer service you could ever deal with.
Joeniel on 08/5/2007 11:53:28
Ok so tell me this..
Alpine: 750w RMS 2000peak
Dayton: 200w RMS 400peak
Will the Dayton's pound as hard as the alpines, and not go out after like 2 months? I like bass, and alot of it.. I'm young and I like bass, I want to be able to compete with my friends (we all want to have the better system).. I'm worried that those are cheap ($50ea vs $200ea). I want quality that will last, not go out after a year. Ive never heard of Buttkicker either for an amp, and only $20 for an enclosure? Ported vs sealed... I heard ported produces more boominess, which is kind of what I want.
Comments plz! If those Daytons are quality, will last, and give me good bass comparable to the more expensive brands, then I'm all for them.
Thanks!
Ash on 08/5/2007 12:18:06
Funny thing is that box is a good match sealed or ported. There is enough room to put ports in them and still be right at the recommended ported box for them. So that is not a problem. I do have a problem going ported in the trunk however, unless you can vent them into the cab directly.
We are comparing apples and oranges here in power requirements, but I don't think a company would give a crappy product a 5 year warranty. They would lose money. I have owned and installed several Dayton subwoofers, including those. They are solid, efficient performers and all who I have installed them for are deeply satisfied. If you want to "boom" very loud, then a bigger budget is definitely in order.
The prices are hard to believe, huh? Well Partsexpress does a lot of buyouts from manufacturers closeouts and pass them onto the consumer for a little extra. If you don't believe the products are good, then read the reviews on the products listed page. I have three of the amps in my living room right now, waiting for new projects. No lie!
If your looking for a lot of slam, have you ever thought about a bandpass? I just got through building a test model 12" sealed rear. It is pretty darn loud for 250 watts continuous. The box is large (2.4 ft^3) somewhat but output is good and without muddiness. It is not a one note box either! I concentrated the range between 39hz to 80hz.
The key is efficiency and custom building. No prefabs here. I'm quite sure we can help you on that as well. I, for one, experiment on real world budget setups because where I live, they want it loud, yet don't have the grands to spend. So I try to come up with inexpensive combos that will work. Usually, that calls for using products that most never heard of. No, they are not the absolute best, but they are quite impressive in performance!
swez on 08/5/2007 16:34:12
Parts Express is a very good ploace to browse and shop for hardware and some of the speakers they carry are indeed top notch. Yes, they also have low budget, low performance products too. But that is to suit the needs of many low budget replacements and people who are not afraid to tinker.
As Ash mentioned, sealed boxes in trunk mounts are actually a benefit to avoid excessive boominess and muddled bass which is common to most trunk mounded sub installs. To get more bass into the cabin, if you have flip down rear seat(s), that helps a great deal. If not, some either live with the trade offs or cut air vents between the trunk and cabin to bring more bass inside the cabin.
As for the Alpine subs, they are very good SQL subs. SQL means that Sound Quality is very good and offers high SPL as well. (SPL is how much sound pressure, [perceived loudness] one can get with a given setup.
I cannot stress enough, the power draw factor that large sub/full range amps require. In a typical vehicle, we have a stock ALT/BAT that are mated to the car's needs and about 30% reserve power for add ons. An example may help:
Stock system: 100A ALT; 650 CCA rated battery is very common
At idle speeds, the ALT can produce about 60A's of current as needed to run all the key electrical gear in a vehicle. As the engine RPM climbs above about 2,000 RPM, the ALT spins faster and can provide more power if needed. Below that RPM, the ALT will struggle to produce adequate power when we add large audio amplifiers to a given stock system.
OK, a 1000 watt Class D sub amp will often draw between 60-75A's of current when we crank up the bass. The power draw is dependent on the type of music we listen to and the ohmic load the amp is trying to
supply. (1 or 2 ohm loads are common for subs)
Now, if the electrical system tops out at 100A's and the amp pulls say 70A's, what will happen to the rest of the vehicle's needs for power?
Here's how it works:
That only leave 30A's to feed the car needs off the ALT. The rest will come from the battery. We often note light dimming, AC/Heater blowers will slow down and other car electricals will be starving for power too. That means the ALT not only has to power the basic electronics inside the car and feed the amps, but it must now recharge the battery all at the same time. Do this for a long time and we often get a ALT failure. (AKA the ALT has heart failure and quits)
When the ALT takes a dive, your car is now running only off the BAT. It won't take long to deplete the battery reserves and the car will eventually lose power and stall out. (Now, you're stuck somewhere, needing a jump/charge and hopefully close enough to limp home on battery power alone)
Do you see the picture more clearly now? Yes, this is a worst case senario, but it happens regularly when guys play their systems hard for extended periods of time. We know there is a problem when the voltage gage or a dummy light alert come on. By then, it's almost too late. If we are lucky and turn off the audio gear, we may have enough battery reserves to limp home.
How to avoid all this?
1. Use our gear wisely (Common sense)
2. Upgrade the electrical system to meet new power demands (Expensive)
3. Choose gear to fit what the car can safely provide (More common sense)
Here's a few things to chew on: (I always use RMS/Continous watts)
1. A 500 watt system will draw a tad under 40A's current at full power and a stock electrical system can manage that well enough
2. If we jump to 1000 watts, our power consumption doubles but we get about 3-5 more dB of bass (That is just barely above audible to the human ear)
3. We can use high efficiency subs and enclosures and reduce amp power draw and still get very high SPL numbers (BP and Ported box)
OK, this is just a primer for ya. Think about your long-term goals and if you find that going to a very strong system is in the cards, put cash aside for electrical upgrades that are needed to run such rigs. If you note major light dimming problems when the system is installed, this is the first clue you need more power to run the gear. (No, a Surge Cap will not fix chronic power deficiencies)
Print this info out and show it to your father. He is older and wiser and will probably understand the details and can help you sort out your options.
Swez
PS Dayton subs are very good products when used as designed. A pair of 10's or 12's ported/sealed and 500 watts of power to them will be pretty solid bass. I'm not pushing them here, nor the Buttkicker amp, but for a low budget system, Dayton Quatro's make for a lot of bass. (But they are not in the same power class as Alpine SWR's)
trunkisloud on 08/5/2007 16:52:03
if he is new to car audio.....how can we expect him to construct an enclosure that matches the daytons to spec.?? Im not saying he's incapable but chances are he hasnt had much experience building boxes ...especially to specification.....wouldnt the best option be for him to run a single sub that can handle decent power in a box that can produce lots of bass....??...besides i saw the swr online for less than 100 bucks....then he would not need a massive amp that would require electrical upgrades...
swez on 08/5/2007 17:52:50
TIL, You just summarized my whole point! But, at the same time, the whys and wherefores are not explained. (I took the liberty to explain in detail since he is new)
1 strong, efficient sub
1 medium powered amp (500 RMS is plenty)
An efficient enclosure if more SPL is desired than typical Sealed or Ported enclosures are not sufficient (BP, if one likes that option)
Thanks for keeping it simple.... COFFEE
Swez
trunkisloud on 08/5/2007 18:12:47
uh...yea.... i meant to do that...hehe
swez on 08/5/2007 22:22:11
Hehe... when I get bored, it's fun to type. Sort of like thinking out loud is all. Nice that you already know this stuff.... ;-)
Swez
PS Yes, I am a bit bored this weekend. (Can ya tell?)
Ash on 08/6/2007 08:52:40
I couldn't have said it any better Swez.
Joeniel, the difference between 400 and 500 watts is very minor. What really makes the difference here is usable cone area, stroke, and efficiency. Tha'ts all that I'm implying. There is no need to build an enclosure as the one I posted in the links is recommended.
It is totally up to you, but just remember: "To play, sometimes you have to pay!"
Joeniel on 08/6/2007 15:51:32
Thanks alot! I think ive decided on just going with a single Alpine Type R in a ported enclosure with the Kenwood amp...
NOW: What about wiring? Any particular brand or is a wire a wire? Do I need a wiring kit for the amp as well as the sub, or is it just one general kit?
Thanks for the input everyone!
swez on 08/6/2007 20:15:06
That would be the SWR-1242D and Kenwood KAC-8103D right? If yes, solid choices here.
Wire and hardware needed can be obtained from several good brands:
Stinger
Streetwires
Knukonceptz
Monster Cable
Here, your main power line will be #4 gage line. You'll also need 1pair of RCA cable, an inline fuse and some hardware parts to connect your wire to the BAT terminal.
I happen to like Knukonceptz products and have used them on several installs too. Good quality, fair prices and easy to use in most cases too.
www.knukonceptz.com
Swez
Joeniel on 08/7/2007 15:42:11
Another question: Do I need a capacitor? If so, what kind? I dont even know what to look for in a capacitor...
Ash on 08/7/2007 16:16:50
No caps! They are a waste of money. You shouldn't be pull that much juice. I would do a Big 3 upgrade and then maybe a optima (or similar) battery if needed.
Joeniel on 08/7/2007 18:06:45
Big 3?
How much is that gonna cost me?...
swez on 08/7/2007 19:32:27
The B3 is medium cheap... just some #4 wire (8-12 ft) and termination hardware is all that is needed. It's mostly labor and easy to do if you follow this guys lead:
http://www.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/312025/page/1#Post312025
It's nice to use good terminal blocks off the BAT rather than stock.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productMaster.cfm?Category=Battery%20Terminals
But this method shows more expensive blocks. There are cheaper methods, but don't look as nice.
http://www.wiringproducts.com/?target=dept_44.html&gclid=CJ6Tw5_G5I0CFREDWAodWzF80g
http://www.wiringproducts.com/?target=dept_44.html&gclid=CJ6Tw5_G5I0CFREDWAodWzF80g
Swez
PS Can get most of these at a good autoparts store or local car audio shops.
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