This will be the 3rd Eclipse SW6200 12" subwoofer that I've sent back.
1.) Spider came loose from Cone (Factory Defect)
2.) Voice coil tinsel became unraveled. (Factory Defect)
3) Voice coil is burnt across it's width about 3/4 of the way (Not sure)
When voice coils are burnt across their width it's called Signal Burn:
Signal burn is a failure mode where the voice coil is burnt across its entire width, indicating uniform voice coil travel with respect to the stationary magnet structure. Such a burn pattern is not indicative of amplifier malfunction but instead is due to excessive signal or program level. The cause is simply trying to get more from the speaker than it is capable of delivering.
The problem with this is that this sub is rated at 350wRMS and it probably never even saw 300wRMS. It never was played loud enough to produce mechanical noise (other than when I was adjusting amp gains and even then it wasn't even a second, and the subwoofer worked fine for months after)
The only other thing that was changed recently was that I upgraded from 16gauge wire to 14gauge wire since the plastic sheathing on the wire from the second returned sub was burnt.
Is there any other reason that the VC could be burnt like this? And also, will the warranty cover it? Or will I be wasting my shipping fee even sending it in to them?
Lastly, the two 12"s were right next to each other in the rear hatch of my vehicle and each had a separate and different airspace behind it, by about .21ft³ could this be a reason for the first two "defects"?
Replies (5)
swez on 07/16/2007 02:00:03
Good technical explanation... this is a cooling problem with the subs and the other failures are sometimes attributed to over-sized enclosure and too much continous power. (Over excursion)
I fixed a buddy's Eclipse 8710 as it too separated from the coil and cone. A few weeks later, his other one did the same thing and he fixed that one as I did. After that, he switched to better amps, (DLS) and opted for a Brahma 10. (Sealed) It was a nice upgrade.
For low/medium power subs and high power amps, it's generally best to go on the small side of the box specs for a sealed or ported enclosure.
Warranty??? Hard to say. If they have seen a lot of field failures on this model sub, they may do something about it. It depends on where you bought them and if they stand behind their products.
If the sub says 1.0 ft^3 is max sealed, yes... a 1.2ft^3 box is often enough variation to see that sub fail and the other chamber survive. If both subs have failed regardless of the enclosure, either they are being abused or cannot handle rated power.
Swez
cplkittle on 07/16/2007 03:56:15
I used to work for an eclipse dealer. I saw a few of the entry level subs come back, but they were completely fried. The cause here was customers that liked to tinker with the gain and bass boost levels.
I did have a situation where a diamond TDX sub (now the D9) kept blowing in the similar manner as yours..
Diamond explained to me that having two subs connected to the same amplifier, but in different sized boxes can cause multiple types of sub and amplifier failure. Electricity follows the path of least resistance, and during play the sub's resistance changes significantly depending on the location of the voice coil in it's linear travel in relation to the magnets. If one sub has a smaller enclosure, the acoustic suspension the box offers is greater than the larger box. This restricts the movement of the speaker. The other speaker will travel more, and likewise present greater resistances. For example, if one sub reaches 40 ohms at a certain frequency, and the other only 20 ohms, the sub that is at 20 ohms will get twice the power. With these uncontrollable voltage spikes comes the problems. The sub in the smaller box that is moving less cools less. This is also the sub that gets the voltage spike. More power and less cone movement produces the excessive heat that will melt the voice coil. At the same time, this is the sub that will 'surge' at times, ripping the voice coil from the spider.
I would attribute the tinsel lead unraveling to cheaper parts being used.
MrBrownstone on 07/16/2007 14:29:23
I'm stupified as I've never blown a subwoofer without competing in DB Drag. Sure,I've 'lit em up' a few times..still, not seeing that problem.
Typically, if a woofer is defective (and they do that), it fails within the first week or so...usually the first time you lite it up.
Tinsel lead could be a bad solder, OR, it could be the woofer is moving mechanically farther than it is intended. If it is melted, it's a power issue. If its just separated, it's a bad connection. It could be too short (design) for it's duty...but likely, overdriven.
Why don't you give us an inventory of the:
Amplifier (make & model)
Gain settings
Box Size
Woofer wiring configuration (series/parallel)
etc.
Ender2 on 07/16/2007 15:10:37
Directed Audio D2400
Gain was adjusted to measure voltage and plugged into the equation to Watts and was measured to be just under 300wRMS.
The box that had two separate chambers (one for each sub) one measured around 1ft³, and the other chamber had around 1.21ft³ of volume.
The subwoofers were wired in Parallel and are 4+4 DVCs (as I'm sure you know) which net a 1 ohm load which is stable on my amplifier.
They processed the return and I'll be shipping the sub off in a few minutes. I'm still sitting on the new one that I just got back from them and I don't believe I'm going to be put it back into my car and instead try to sell it for a couple of reasons:
1.) I'm going to be getting a HO Alternator in a few weeks and also a high performance battery which leads to...
2.) My amp can push 1,200 WRMS or 600 per channel, so I should be upgrading to some 600wRMS rated subs anyway.
3.) This is, as said before, the 3rd SW6200 sub that I've sent back and either it's poor craftsmanship or I'm doing something wrong, but I believe it to be the former.
Tips, advice, concerns? Always welcome. =)
swez on 07/16/2007 16:22:08
Can see a few possibly issues here:
1. Poorly made subs
2. More power to subs then esitmated
3. Chamber size is larger on one side and may contribute to failures
Question: Since you have replaced these subs a few times now, is there a consistent pattern of failure?
A. Same enclosure segment sub fails (Bigger one mostly?)
B. Similar failure modes on each sub?
C. Did you measure amp power w/ the engine runing, EQ adjusted to your normal settings and calibrated based on ALT RPM?
I ask the last one specifically as we know amps change power output based on power supply voltage and current. At Idle speeds, voltage may be good, but current is often limted to the load draw.
Also, if we set gains at flat and then boost the bass at the amp or EQ by +6dB or more later, that really spikes the amp power to well above the flat EQ settings. (A 100 watt reading at flat, +6dB boost at 45 Hz., is 400 watts at 45 Hz. )
S@@ the the connection?
Swez
1.) Spider came loose from Cone (Factory Defect)
2.) Voice coil tinsel became unraveled. (Factory Defect)
3) Voice coil is burnt across it's width about 3/4 of the way (Not sure)
When voice coils are burnt across their width it's called Signal Burn:
Signal burn is a failure mode where the voice coil is burnt across its entire width, indicating uniform voice coil travel with respect to the stationary magnet structure. Such a burn pattern is not indicative of amplifier malfunction but instead is due to excessive signal or program level. The cause is simply trying to get more from the speaker than it is capable of delivering.
The problem with this is that this sub is rated at 350wRMS and it probably never even saw 300wRMS. It never was played loud enough to produce mechanical noise (other than when I was adjusting amp gains and even then it wasn't even a second, and the subwoofer worked fine for months after)
The only other thing that was changed recently was that I upgraded from 16gauge wire to 14gauge wire since the plastic sheathing on the wire from the second returned sub was burnt.
Is there any other reason that the VC could be burnt like this? And also, will the warranty cover it? Or will I be wasting my shipping fee even sending it in to them?
Lastly, the two 12"s were right next to each other in the rear hatch of my vehicle and each had a separate and different airspace behind it, by about .21ft³ could this be a reason for the first two "defects"?
Replies (5)
swez on 07/16/2007 02:00:03
Good technical explanation... this is a cooling problem with the subs and the other failures are sometimes attributed to over-sized enclosure and too much continous power. (Over excursion)
I fixed a buddy's Eclipse 8710 as it too separated from the coil and cone. A few weeks later, his other one did the same thing and he fixed that one as I did. After that, he switched to better amps, (DLS) and opted for a Brahma 10. (Sealed) It was a nice upgrade.
For low/medium power subs and high power amps, it's generally best to go on the small side of the box specs for a sealed or ported enclosure.
Warranty??? Hard to say. If they have seen a lot of field failures on this model sub, they may do something about it. It depends on where you bought them and if they stand behind their products.
If the sub says 1.0 ft^3 is max sealed, yes... a 1.2ft^3 box is often enough variation to see that sub fail and the other chamber survive. If both subs have failed regardless of the enclosure, either they are being abused or cannot handle rated power.
Swez
cplkittle on 07/16/2007 03:56:15
I used to work for an eclipse dealer. I saw a few of the entry level subs come back, but they were completely fried. The cause here was customers that liked to tinker with the gain and bass boost levels.
I did have a situation where a diamond TDX sub (now the D9) kept blowing in the similar manner as yours..
Diamond explained to me that having two subs connected to the same amplifier, but in different sized boxes can cause multiple types of sub and amplifier failure. Electricity follows the path of least resistance, and during play the sub's resistance changes significantly depending on the location of the voice coil in it's linear travel in relation to the magnets. If one sub has a smaller enclosure, the acoustic suspension the box offers is greater than the larger box. This restricts the movement of the speaker. The other speaker will travel more, and likewise present greater resistances. For example, if one sub reaches 40 ohms at a certain frequency, and the other only 20 ohms, the sub that is at 20 ohms will get twice the power. With these uncontrollable voltage spikes comes the problems. The sub in the smaller box that is moving less cools less. This is also the sub that gets the voltage spike. More power and less cone movement produces the excessive heat that will melt the voice coil. At the same time, this is the sub that will 'surge' at times, ripping the voice coil from the spider.
I would attribute the tinsel lead unraveling to cheaper parts being used.
MrBrownstone on 07/16/2007 14:29:23
I'm stupified as I've never blown a subwoofer without competing in DB Drag. Sure,I've 'lit em up' a few times..still, not seeing that problem.
Typically, if a woofer is defective (and they do that), it fails within the first week or so...usually the first time you lite it up.
Tinsel lead could be a bad solder, OR, it could be the woofer is moving mechanically farther than it is intended. If it is melted, it's a power issue. If its just separated, it's a bad connection. It could be too short (design) for it's duty...but likely, overdriven.
Why don't you give us an inventory of the:
Amplifier (make & model)
Gain settings
Box Size
Woofer wiring configuration (series/parallel)
etc.
Ender2 on 07/16/2007 15:10:37
Directed Audio D2400
Gain was adjusted to measure voltage and plugged into the equation to Watts and was measured to be just under 300wRMS.
The box that had two separate chambers (one for each sub) one measured around 1ft³, and the other chamber had around 1.21ft³ of volume.
The subwoofers were wired in Parallel and are 4+4 DVCs (as I'm sure you know) which net a 1 ohm load which is stable on my amplifier.
They processed the return and I'll be shipping the sub off in a few minutes. I'm still sitting on the new one that I just got back from them and I don't believe I'm going to be put it back into my car and instead try to sell it for a couple of reasons:
1.) I'm going to be getting a HO Alternator in a few weeks and also a high performance battery which leads to...
2.) My amp can push 1,200 WRMS or 600 per channel, so I should be upgrading to some 600wRMS rated subs anyway.
3.) This is, as said before, the 3rd SW6200 sub that I've sent back and either it's poor craftsmanship or I'm doing something wrong, but I believe it to be the former.
Tips, advice, concerns? Always welcome. =)
swez on 07/16/2007 16:22:08
Can see a few possibly issues here:
1. Poorly made subs
2. More power to subs then esitmated
3. Chamber size is larger on one side and may contribute to failures
Question: Since you have replaced these subs a few times now, is there a consistent pattern of failure?
A. Same enclosure segment sub fails (Bigger one mostly?)
B. Similar failure modes on each sub?
C. Did you measure amp power w/ the engine runing, EQ adjusted to your normal settings and calibrated based on ALT RPM?
I ask the last one specifically as we know amps change power output based on power supply voltage and current. At Idle speeds, voltage may be good, but current is often limted to the load draw.
Also, if we set gains at flat and then boost the bass at the amp or EQ by +6dB or more later, that really spikes the amp power to well above the flat EQ settings. (A 100 watt reading at flat, +6dB boost at 45 Hz., is 400 watts at 45 Hz. )
S@@ the the connection?
Swez
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