hello well one of my coworkers came to me and asked me some questions. it apeaars that he has gone thru 3 setups in the last year he has had a sony and two diferent audiobahn sub and amp combinantions. he blew the subs and amps on the first 2 (not at the same time some times an amp some times a sub or two ) curently he is using two audiobahn aw121t flame excursion
http://www.audiobahn.com/Audiobahn06/pages/woofers.html
a8000v class a/b
http://www.audiobahn.com/Audiobahn06/pages/amps.html
in a bandpass box
now he likes his system but he wants more
#1 some nice strong equipment that will take some punishment and last
#2 a little more bass
now i personlaly know that this guy will drive around for 3 or 4 hours with the vol turned up every day."he loves to pound" he is aparently verry hard on subs and amps and is tired of having to replace stuff. so what would you guys sudjest?
this is in a 2004 Mazda 6 with factory radio
budjet is un determened rite now but i assume some where around 600-1000
so what you say?
Replies (52)
MrBrownstone on 07/6/2007 17:48:59
Sounds like a loaded question.
What it sounds like is he's a victim of buying equipment without planning. Typically, we see this when guys have either a hodgepodge of products, or they blow things out.
In his case, owning a class A/B amplfier with an SPL subwoofer. Without knowing all of his goals and equipment it'd be difficult to identify the best choices for him.
It might be best for every if we identify what our overall goal is, and how willing we are to sacrifice ($$$) to accomplish that goal.
If he's unhappy with his system now, $600 to $1000 will get him a good class D, but ultimately, if he's blowing woofers, it's more of a USER error that's causing that problem.
Bassheads are the hardest to teach...and the most expensive. What we need to do is start with the type of enclosure he wants...which is dictated by the quality of sound.
Sounds like he needs an education on how things work, why they fail, and how to effectively use his equipment.
Here's on on speaker failure
http://p205.ezboard.com/Speaker-FailureDistortion-Clipping-and-more/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=2.topic
Send him here for an overview
http://p205.ezboard.com/FAQ-Car-Audio-Forum-Frequently-Asked-Questions/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7
I think that when someone is damaging equipment that quickly, it's a sign of lack of knowledge on how to use the product. That, or unwillingness to accept a product's limitations.
raulbustos on 07/9/2007 20:59:55
well i showed him the link that was sudjesteed and he kinda understood i tried to help him understand. i think one of
the major reasons his equipment keeps messing up is he really pushes them now looking at his amp he had the gain all the way up and the bass bost all the way up the low pass and ssf lookeed to be rite and it sounded okay.
when i asked about the setttings he said he had hired them because it wasnt strong enough .he want to get a stronger set up so he dosent have to push them to their limits to get the level of bass he wants so i confimed the budjet of $1000
and he defenatly wants a ported enclouser i said ill help to build the box but ill need some help in dementions from you all
so what do you guys sudjest in amp and sub?
kirchatndftbl on 07/9/2007 21:58:23
does he want a single sub setup or dual sub setup?????
he might be better off chosing a strong single sub setup
(less to replace if he blows it)
Single sub setup
(sub)
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=16593
(amp)
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=16367
this would produce a good amount of spl and should be able to fulfill the bass he wants and should definitely outperform the audiobahns
build a ported box to the recommended specs and you should be set
swez and everyone else can probably help come up with some other choices this is just my opinion
kirchatndftbl on 07/9/2007 22:21:12
maybe even this
2 Alpine SWR-124D subs
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=14954
Amp
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=18418
swez on 07/10/2007 01:33:49
The problem with newbie bass nutz, they are never satisfied with what they have until they blow up their gear. Using the wrong subs, improper gain settings, poorly designed enclosure and general abuse are common to the guys who don't know the rules. (By rules, I mean what a given system can take and what its limits are)
As for Bahn gear, I would not buy this brand for high SPL use as they have a track record of field failures. Crutchfield use to carry Bahn gear a few years back, but no more. Gee, I wonder why the largest full line Audio Retailer would drop Bahn as product? Hummm
For normal use and guys who know the ropes, sure... Bahn has a niche and has a few very solid products. But.... not for a Basshead that does not know when enough is too much.
Your friend needs a bullet proof set of gear that is designed to take a lot of abuse and come back for more. Or, have someone design a system from the ground up that is optimized and never touched by unskilled hands. (I would set the gains/bass boost and epoxy them so they cannot be messed with) Yeah, that does sound a bit extreme, but that's what I call "fool proofing" a good install.
I like your amp suggestion. This is a solid amp and offers plenty of clean power. However, the subs noted are not up to that power range. They are 500 RMS/sub and if ported, this amp will trash a pair of SWR's in no time.
One of these subs would do the job with that amp:
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ORI27311
It's not cheap, but can handle some serious power. Consider pitching this combo as it is compact, the sub can take serious power and move a lot of air, (Bass waves) too. The ported box is very managable as well.
Swez
SQLThump on 07/10/2007 05:00:17
Yeah, I have had the pleasure of hearing a pair of H2 12's in person, and being powered by a "mere" 1600 watts, (less than half of the capable power handling) and was VERY impressed with every aspect of their performance. Wouldn't mind hearing them at the full 4000 RMS the pair was capable of.
Why don't we try to go the usual CK route, with more sensitivity, intellingence in terms of enclosure design and the like.
800RMS can make some serious nots if paired with some good subs. Allow me to make some reccomendations.
Diamond Audio D312D4
http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/1526973/vpcsid/0/SFV/30046
400 RMS sensitivity 86DB@2.83V
These subs are more SQ based, but still offer some great knock. Not too sure about the website though, that price seems waay too good to be true. These would pair up great with his amp, and WILL hit like crazy.
Infinity Perfect 12 DVQ
http://cgi.ebay.com/INFINITY-KAPPA-PERFECT-12DVQ-12-SUBWOOFER-SUB-12-DVQ_W0QQitemZ280131429380QQihZ018QQcategoryZ18803QQcmdZViewItem
Also 400 RMS, Dual 4 ohm coils, sensitivity 92DB, I am 99% sure thats at 1Watt/1Meter
The Perfect is also a great performer, although more of an SQL sub, the also hit like crazy. They also offer a really high sensitivity rating, which would be great to milk out the most DB's out of the 800 watts available.
Also, check out your buddies gear to make sure the basic installation isn't whats lacking, as opposed to equipment choices. Make sure at least 4 gauge wire is going to the sub amp, if it is solo, and at least 0 gauge if this is a multi amp setup. Also make sure decent RCA's speaker wire and the like is also employes.
From personal expeirence, I would think the stock H/U would be the #1 stopper in the bass performance of this ride. I am assuming line output convertors are being used here, and that can be less desirable when trying do deliver an optimum amunt of signal to a high power amp. Sometimes that just doesn't get the job done, ad some have adjustable levels in the convertor itself, making a dail in even more difficult than ever.
Make sure you do some research before you send yourself and your boy into battle with a $600-1000 budget for an amp and subs, when the real enemy was a deck or wiring. $600 buys a really nice head unit nowadays, and 600-1000 buys a nice deck a lot of nice wiring, and other install parts.
raulbustos on 07/11/2007 13:48:26
well first off i do believe this is a descent install
he is using a stinger 4 gauge and this is the only amp
i helped him do the big 3 upgrade
now for him changing out the factory stereo i dont think that is an option rite now i had sudjested it but he really dint like the ideah
now i did notice that he is using high level input on the amp
im not to sure if a converter would help or not? u tell me. there is a tap runing from the wires going to a rear speaker to feed the amp
i do believe he wants two subs but at this point nothing is deffinate we are open to ideas and sudjestions.
swez on 07/11/2007 22:09:19
OK, let's break this down a few steps and get some well defined paramaters:
1. Does he have a usable amp? (Make & Model#)
2. The subs he is now using, are they working well or shot?
3. He has a stock HU and does not wish to change it now (Y/N?)
If he has an amp that has Speaker level signal and RCA's line levels, he can just tap wires off the rear speaker and use the amps' Speaker level inputs.
Note: I hear this one a lot... "Speaker level inputs are garbage quality compared to RCA line level results". Prove it to me!!! The preamps in an amp with this feature take higher voltage signals from the HU and converts them to usable levels the amp can manage. The amp has a LPF to block mids/highs and the subs only get bass.
As long as the speakers are getting a clean, noise free signal from the HU, more voltage is not a problem and the amp has features to make it work just fine. Also, as long as there are no ground loop problems in the system, the subs will be noise free too. The LPF will block out most motor noise above LPF settings unless the amp is defective or not properly grounded.
This Bahn amp mentioned before... it's a Class A/B MONO amp, 400 Wrms @ 4 ohms, 800 Wrms @ 2 ohms. It's not very efficient compared to Class D amps and does not have high signal inputs either:
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ABNA8000V?ref=gogwr&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_term=audiobahn_a8000v&gclid=CJaF4__soI0CFR6AWAodZQ4E5g
If the amp is usable, your buddy will need to install LOC's at the HU or rear speakers and convert to RCA line levels only. That's doable and not very expensive either.
Subs: Pretty simple here... get the dude some strong subs to match the amp power ratings and a tad more. He is less likely to beat them into pulp if the amp is set up properly and he keeps his "stupid hands" off the settings. (I say "Stupid Hands" as opposed to "Skilled Hands" that know what to do and why) Again, "idiot proofing" the post install settings are a good deterant and justifyable if he tinkers w/o common sense.
OK, that's my read for now. Say more about the gear he does want to use or upgrade and we'll go to round 2.
Swez
PS I don't know your buddy. However, what you have mentioned about his past episodes and blowing up gear, tells me he needs skilled hands that know what to do on the setup stage on his bass rig. If he changes things afterwards and blowns an amp or subs, he deserves the consequences. Some guys are just not teachable. They need limits imposed by the installer and live with the results or risk blowing gear.
PSS I have worked with many a DJ who did the same kind of stuff. They get a bit out of control on the mixing table and before ya know it, the club owner needs a service call to replace blown speakers. The owner is ticked off and blames the Tech installer or lame speakers. After a few of those calls and rants, our only option was to preset the limiters and lock the amp rack so the DJ cannot do anything above the presets. That's what I mean by "fool" proofing a system.
raulbustos on 07/13/2007 01:06:36
#1/#2 okay yes his curent set up is working fine and is instaled. i had adjusted the amp for him before but he turned it up again casue he wanted that more power and i told him the posible consequences.
#3 no he dose not want to replace the factory stereo
he wants new and better
amp,
sub(s),
and a box built for the sub(s).
dose not want to keep his curent equipment he wants to upgrade
ps well from my expereince with audiobahn amps this new series and the older series and the one before have all had both high and low level inputs. and i personaly saw the high level beeing used and the rca input empty.
see i have instaled some LOC's mostly when there was no speaker level inputs on an amp but some people have wanted to put them on when there system was working perfectly fine with high level.
As from what they told me they had herd that the amps will work better with rca s than high level( i never saw a diference at all ) so is there benifits for doing this in general or dose it do nothing diferent
High level VS Low level
what you say?
swez on 07/13/2007 01:22:44
I cannot tell the difference either. I have done systems both ways and cannot tell the difference.
I too have heard some guys say that RCA's are better SQ then speaker line feeds. Can't prove that one by my experience. Some amps may have better attenuation and filters, but I'm a Missouri type guy... "Show me with factual data" in a A/B comparison and then I may see things differently. About the only thing that strikes me here, is how clean a signal one gets off the HU and into the amp. If the HU is not clipping, it should be fine. That's my answer... "Prove me wrong".
OK, so what does your friend want to do next? How much space does he have for subs and $$$ for the gear? We also have to look at his power source for a given amp too. That depends on his ALT/BAT and current draw from the sub amp.
Lay out a plan and we'll help pull things together as needed.
Swez
raulbustos on 07/13/2007 09:13:59
okay for a beging budget we have $1000 now that need to buy the amp the sub(s) and materials to build a box and any other installation acessaries neded
he has the big 3 upgraded
bat is 975cca rated
stock alternator
and stinger 4 gauge wiring
and when i asked him about space he said if i neded i could use the whole trunk
swez on 07/13/2007 10:24:45
Based on that info, he's limited to about 1000 watts of amping power and that will cost about $350 for a Class D amp.
Let's focus on subs for now and find an amp after the subs are determined.
1. What is the vehicle he has to work with here? (Make and body style)
2. Does he want pure SPL or SQL for his next system?
3. Need some basic dimensions of what size his present subs are working in (H, D & W of enclosure(s) he has now)
Do you have any suggestions for him, based on what you have learned here to date?
Swez
SQLThump on 07/13/2007 11:28:47
On the topic of linelevel convertors VS high level inputs, I can't really notice a difference. I am not a big fan of either method, but sometimes it is a must.
High level inputs were broken down to me like this:
My buddy had an old amp, a POS Legacy that was really small. He showed me the signal path for the high level inputs, and the RCA jacks. The high levels plugged into the circuit board, and had to go through various capacitors and whatnots( not too familiar with what is inside amps) to end up at the same point that the RCA's wires were going into the circuit board. It was put to me like so "do you wan't your signal to have to travel through all that crap before it makes music?" I said "NOOOOO"
This was over a basic tutorial from my buddy on what does what, where and why, and how to spot a faulty component. He is pretty knowledgable on the topic, and I am always happy to learn. This was pretty cool as it was the first time my eyes peered inside an amp.
Not too big a fan of LOC's, as I have some faulty stuff happen with them in the past. Usually due to the low quality of the LOC though.
I consider myself a "BassHead," and myself have killed a couple of components here and there due to a lack of knowledge. Good ol' Swez here taught me the proper art of dailing in by ear, and my system works well, despite being a bit ghetto. Still satisfies a basshead, but wouldn't work to well if it wasn't for my attention to details, and constantly messing around trying to optimize my sounds.
$1000 sounds pretty reasonable to create a basshead satisfying system. As Swez has input, some method of "foolproofing" should occur to prevent him going and making matters worse, and killing off his expensive gear.......
You could trying building a box that encloses the amp somehow and cant be accessed without taking a sub box. I have thought of mounting an amp in an oversized, slotted, displacement compesated sound port to maximize cooling to the amp, but maybe it would be a great way to pull some foolprooofing off,
without having to silicon putty somebody's gain and bass controls.
Personally, regardless of who would do it, If I paid for an amp and somebody puttied it, it would anger me considerably. If this guy pops a sub out and were to mess with it, that would merely be a testament to this guys own stubborn behavior.
swez on 07/13/2007 14:20:11
To add a little to your comments on High signal processors there SQLT, that circuit mentioned is just like an LOC, only mounted inside the amp and designed specifically for the amps' needs.
It's a simple set of filters and attenuators is all. They take in a high voltage speaker line signal of say 8-10 volts and attenuate the signal down to a level the RCA input side of the amp can handle. Nothing more, nothing less and we don't have to mess with cheap or flaky LOC's or the HU and we still have usable rear speakers and amping from the HU to work with.
As for "fool proofing" an amp after it's been set up properly, I would use a dab of silicone sealer to cap over the gain and bass boost controls. It's easy to remove after cured and does not harm the amp in any way. But it does offer some degree of "set and forget" from the installer/techs point of view.
If the owner/user messes with the controls later and blows up a sub or the amp, it is easy to go back to the user and point out the caps have been disturbed, the user messed with it and the fault lies directly on the owner of the gear, not the installer/tech.
Sorry, but experience has taught me to be pretty hard-nosed about "fool proofing" a system I was paid to install correctly. It's been tested, tweaked for optimal performance and if needed, I would not hesitate to either mark the gain/BB setting or cap them off. That way, if something goes wrong due to unskilled hands that tampered with my work, it's their tough luck. I will not take responsibility for others who tamper after my work was done. Nuff said... Period and game over!!!
Swez
SQLThump on 07/13/2007 14:22:05
Well Put Swez!
raulbustos on 07/14/2007 09:45:14
well first of all his vehicle is a 2005 mazda 6
okay lets see either it just still to early for me (just woke up )
SPL set up focouses on power the louder the better rite?
SQ ( my fav) is about quality clean and acuriteacy rite?
SQL <.........? whats that
swez on 07/14/2007 10:21:41
well first of all his vehicle is a 2005 mazda 6
"okay lets see either it just still to early for me" (just woke up )
So I see... grab a coffee or Red Bull SMILE
"SPL set up focouses on power the louder the better rite?"
Yep, the focus is on loudness
SQ ( my fav) is about quality clean and acuriteacy rite? Accuracy?...Yep, Studio grade sound, Audiophile
SQL <.........? whats that
This is a hybrid of SQ & SPL. It's clean and accurate, but also has the ability to reach high dB numbers as desired.
Raul, you've been around here a while and have done a few things on your own too right? Based on what you have learned so far, what would you do if this was your project? What basic steps are needed to obtain solid bass performance?
Give me an outline when you wake up a bit OK?
Swez
raulbustos on 07/15/2007 10:16:54
good morning yeah yesterday was ruff all around. we have been understaffed at work and fairly busy so 13 hr shifts. and after work i have been trying to find a wiring gremblin some one cut the factory recever harnest and then found there mistake and tried to put every thing back toghether lost sound on rear and stereo turns off and on.little nightmare for now ill figure it all out and i dont think they let the smoke out yet its verry hard to get the smoke back in once its out ...
so yeah a SQL is what i would sudjest for him.
well when he was first talking to me i did think about
two alpine type R
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-MHdxUaSDCXQ/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&I=500SWR1222
with an alpine MRD-M1005
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-MHdxUaSDCXQ/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&I=500MRDM105
in a ported box of coarse with your help in design
amp and subs would cost around 550 add say oh 150 for materials for a box ruffly 700 for a budjet
but i said ill ask my budies see what their wise minds have to say especially since i have never personaly herd an alpine type R i had wanted to get me a set a while back but my ride broke so yeah
what you think?
swez on 07/15/2007 11:44:01
Alpine makes a solid set of amps and subs. The Type SWR series sub is their SQL sub line. They do very well in sealed enclosures and ported designs will bring up the lows nicely as well.
A little shopping on the web can bring down the price of his gear a lot. Here's the enclosure specs from Alpine on the SWR series subs: (page 2)
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/500/500SWR1242.PDF
This amp is a very good match for a pair of 2+2 DVC's. Just note the power demand for this amp is substantial when pushed hard. (~75 amperes at full power)
Many here have bought and used Alpine amps and subs with very good results. They are robust, can make some serious bass and last a long time if not abused.
Swez
raulbustos on 07/16/2007 00:57:27
so is that a good combination, is that one the best you can get within a $1000 budjet
swez on 07/16/2007 01:47:14
I don't say "THE BEST" on most things as there is no such thing.
I will say this... "If I wanted a nice system of this level, it would be a very solid choice."
Swez
raulbustos on 07/21/2007 23:25:15
okay i showed him our sudjestions he liked it and well within budjet too. but what kind and size of a box whould work better with this equipment? i originaly thought defenatly ported but sealed always sound good to me so what you say?
swez on 07/22/2007 10:26:23
For the budget he has available, this is a solid option.
Sealed or ported? That depends on "HIS" music preferences and the space he has available for the subs.
Sealed is nice and tight and can get low too. The trade off is the low end thump & bump are not as noticable. (Good bump yes, loud and deep lows are a bit less)
Port tuning will give more low end thump & bump. This is good for Rap and Hip Hop and we get that extra low kick due to port tuning the enclosure.
As for sealed and ported specs on these subs, here's the range:
Sealed box volume: 0.57-1.0 cu. ft. (0.85 ft^3/sub is optimal SQL target) Alpine suggests: 13.0" H x 13.0" W x 12.5" D per sub. These are external dimensions of a sealed box, using 3/4" MDF.
Ported box volume: 0.75-2.0 cu. ft. (1.7 ft^3/sub is optimal target for thump & bump) The specs of the box and vent are noted on page 2 of the manual. This is probably the way for your friend to go. This goes lower and will have more low end bump.
See sub manual for details: (Page 2 specs)
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/500/500SWR1242.PDF
Do you understand the box perameters for ported/vented box as you look at page 2 of the manual?
Swez
raulbustos on 07/22/2007 21:45:34
well i do think he will be better off with the ported box as well. and some of the box diagrams make sense but the port is confusing to me.
swez on 07/23/2007 15:53:23
Alpine specs offer the recommended box and vent size. (It's all there in black & white) The trick is understanding what the numbers mean. The easiest way is to grab some graphing paper and draw out a picture to scale or fabricate a cardboard box of the dimensions he can use.
Yes, dimensions can be altered if the box won't fit the space he is working in. However, some good measurments will confirm that. If he needs to adjust the box parameters, someone here can offer some suggestions. Each sub will need about 2.0 ft^3 externally. When we subtract the vent and sub displacement values, each sub will have an internal chamber of ~1.3 ft^3/sub.
If that is too big for his car, he can either go sealed or shrink the ported box and adjust port tuning and still get very good results. Ported is indeed a good option for guys who want lots of deep bass and have the space to work with.
Swez
raulbustos on 07/24/2007 23:45:20
well i was told i could use all the space needed to optimize this equipment and i do believe we could fit a 2.0 ft^3 per chamber box. I cant remmeber how to get the cubic footage of a box could you tell me how big this box is 14HIGH X 15 1/2 DEEP X 36 WIDE made with 3/4 MDF this is a sealed box with a devider in the middle these are out side demensions
swez on 07/25/2007 08:31:26
External space here is calculated like this:
36 x 14 x 15.5 = 7812/1728 = 4.5 ft^3 (Externally)
I ran these numbers to calculate internal air space for each chamber and that comes out to 3.42/2 = 1.7 ft^3/chamber. That's a perfect fit for his Alpine SWR subs once the vent and sub displacements are accounted for.
You guys are on the right track here. Good work so far!
Swez
raulbustos on 07/26/2007 13:14:21
well this is actually my box and i tried to put it in his trunk and it fit easily. so puting a box into his car bulit for these subs shouldent be a problem rite?
swez on 07/26/2007 13:24:45
Is this box ported/vented now? If yes, knowing the port dimensions or port tuning info would be most helpful.
Do you have a picture or a link to the sub enclosure you are using here?
Swez
raulbustos on 07/26/2007 16:00:47
no this is a selaed box as i had built it for me and had made it for a pair of the bahn's that was noted at the beging of this topic. i could take a pic but i dont know where to post it on the net so you can see it? do u?
swez on 07/26/2007 19:29:15
If your buddy wants to use this box, it's too large for the Alpine SWR subs unless he ports it and adds some internal material to take up internal airspace.
His port size could be:
4.0" dia
11.0" length
Tuning freq: 38 Hz in a 1.7 ft^3/chamber
This is an approximation value. To dial things in more closely, I would need the "internal" dimension of this box. (H, W & D) for each chamber.
Swez
PS Most guys post pics at photobucket.com and then link that to this site with hyperlinks.
raulbustos on 07/27/2007 09:54:39
oh no he wont be using this box we will be building him a new one i was simply saying that this box fit in his car wouldent the box that we build for him be a little smaller?
Victor on 07/27/2007 10:08:00
yes it will be....
swez on 07/27/2007 16:13:32
It probably will be, depending on whether he uses a round port or slotted vent style system. He can also use 2 round ports per chamber and the port length will half the length of a single port.
1 port: 4.0" dia. 11.0" long
2 ports: 4.0" dia 5.5" long per port
FYI: Vent style ports take up more room inside a given enclosure. To get the same affect in a compact enclosure, round ports help a lot.
Swez
raulbustos on 07/29/2007 20:16:39
would there be a diference in sound between the two diferent types of ports?
swez on 07/30/2007 09:59:02
Vents are very good for high SPL bass applications. When done well, they do allow better airflow for high SPL bass. Round ports are good for medium and low powered bass systems.
In this case, it's a coin toss. Alpine recommends tuned vents. They are not overly difficult to fabricate, but do require careful placement and measuring before you build. If that seems a bit out of your skill levels, prefab ports are a very good solution. (Especially flared ports) Here, we can choose 4-6" diameter ports. One pair per chamber would be a very good option. They are much easier to install if you have a good circle cutting tool. (Router or Rotozip with compass attachment or a hole saw will do very well)
Your choice will be determined by woodworking skills and your buddy's preferences. The other option for a high SQL system, would be sealed. This is the easiest box to make, but not as efficient at deep low bass. (A few dB less deep bass here)
Comments?
Swez
PS Here's a box design you can use as a template for a vented enclosure system. Subzone HD-12V:
http://www.subzoneusa.com/new_hshd_series.htm
http://www.subzoneusa.com/hd-12v.htm
PSS If you think building this type of enclosure is beyond your skills, you can buy this box for about $150.00 shipped. If you build it, figure about $80.00 in materials alone.
raulbustos on 08/2/2007 01:30:00
well i dont think that building this box would be a problem i have a descent amount of woodworking skills and my dad has a lot of the biger tools needed i have only built 5 boxes before so where i really need help on is dementions and design
ps. my internet has been giving me some probs night before last i was replying and it gave out on me so just so you know i havent lost intrest
swez on 08/2/2007 17:15:30
Got it, am glad you are still on the project and able to fab the box as needed.
Alpine specs do give the overall enclosure specs and also vent details. The general box specs noted can be adjusted to fit a given vehicle as needed. However, the net results need to be close to the optimal parameters given:
Internal air space is maintained
The vent volume is maintained
We account for sub and vent displacements
Other than that, we can change H, W, D as needed, but compensate for any changes so the net air space is on target. A 1.3 ft^3/chamber is recommended by Alpine. Then we add sub and vent displacements for a nominal 1.7 ft^3 per chamber. That is the target you'll be shooting for.
Does this makes sense to you?
Swez
raulbustos on 08/7/2007 08:54:29
yes sir sounds like a winning plan i am just waiting to order the merchandise my friend twisted his ankle so i have been waiting for him but i will be starting my prodject soon so thank you for all of your wisdom and any assistance
swez on 08/7/2007 15:06:02
Raul, you are most welcome. "Plan your work, work your plan and execute the job with skill" and it will be a great project.
Swez
raulbustos on 01/15/2008 14:06:26
okay so this has finaly started yesterday we ordered
two 12"alpine type R 2 ohm dvc
DEH-P880PRS
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Source/CD-Players/DEH-P880PRS
and a dash instalation kit ------ (expensive for a mazda 6)
next we will be ordering an amp and start building a box
my friend decided to invest in a better all around setup
we will later be insatlling some mids and tweets powerd by a seperat amp after this
raulbustos on 01/17/2008 20:04:52
hello he wants to keep his stering wheel controls functional.
is this the proper adapter?
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=118900&i=127SWIPS&c=3&tp=476&avf=N
they dont have the cd player that we will be using and how hard is it to install one of these i never have done one before?
swez on 01/18/2008 06:09:33
If using a CD changer, these are generally pretty easy to install. In most cases, it's a data/signal/audio cable and power lines in a single cable. Just make sure it is one that is compatible with the HU noted earlier. (Nice HU too)
A better option is an I-Pod via the AUX inputs of this HU. That too is pretty straight forward and the HU menu system does all the integration for you. The I-Pod gives many more tunes to save and access, less bulky and no CD's to change in and out as well. You can take the I-Pod out and use it as a portable device. The CD changer is a "fixed position" option and one is limited to slower music access features as well.
Swez
raulbustos on 01/22/2008 18:50:58
no he is not using a cd changer he just wants to be able to higer and lower the volume and change songs or stations like he can now with his factory stereo from the steering wheel
swez on 01/23/2008 04:51:43
Got it... there are add on harnesses for keeping that feature like the one noted in your earlier post. If you are unsure it will work with his vehicle and HU, contact Crutch and confirm that is the right item for his needs.
Swez
raulbustos on 01/26/2008 01:00:31
okay lets see first let me list what we have here
hu pioneer premier DEH-P880PRS
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Source/CD-Players/DEH-P880PRS
Two alpine type R 2ohm dvc
an alpine MRP-M1000 <...on order rite now
to power the subs
some Boston Acoustics SX60 for the front
and Boston Acoustics SX55 for the back
an alpine MRP-F450 considering to power the bostons
(is this a good choice?)
http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/products/series-c.php?category=AMP
so first off what do you think of the equipment that we went with?
and now my questions what do you sudjust for wireing
i originaly was going to use stinger but i think we will use knukonceptz for budjet my question is what gauge to use ?
posibility 1/0to a ditribution an 4gauge to the two amps what you say?
swez on 01/26/2008 04:59:14
Both amps have pretty strong power ratings and recommeded fusing for each is 100A's for the M1000 and 50A's for the F450. That would flag most to use 1/0 power line to a D-block and then #4 to the sub amp and #8 to the 4 channel.
Have used Knuconceptz wiring and hardware before and found them to be very good quality, well designed and at reasonable prices.
The amps mentioned are a very good match with the speakers and subs noted above. The BA SX-55's are rated for 35 watts RMS, so you will have to be careful when setting amp gain for these speakers so they don't fry with too much power.
The best way I know of is using an AC Voltmeter for gain settings and a 4 ohm speaker as the load. A 4 ohm dummy load works well too. But the dummy load has to be able to handle the wattage you are throwing into it.
Tech Tip: Component type speakers are difficult to obtain accurate voltage setting due to the passive crossover network. Here, a calibrated test tones/pink noise and a full range speaker w/o any caps or coils is best. (one of your subs wired at 4 ohm will do a good job for this setup step)
When you get to this stage, will give you the target voltages for each amp and go from there.
Good choices all around here Raul,
Swez
raulbustos on 03/25/2008 08:28:30
ah the snow is melting the birds are singing and it time to start a new season. so my friend finaly paid for the sub box to get built.
i have to go and buy the mdf but first i want to make sure on how much to get since its $60 worth of gas to go get them
i figure two sheets of 3/4 mdf will do the trick but i need to see about demensions of the box so we can carefully calculate the cuts of board
so correct me if im wrong but we aiming for 1.7 ft^3 ported enclosure
swez on 03/26/2008 17:25:57
Since you have the Alpine SWR-1222D subs and want to go ported, Crutchfield recommends 1.7 ft^3 per chamber for each sub. Yes, you have that number correct.
Figure the sub displacement will be about 0.1 cf/sub. If using round ports, (3" dia, x 9.9" L, each port displacement will be ~0.03 cf/port) That nets 1.7 + 0.13 = 1.83 cf internally per chamber.
If you go with a sloted port design, they recommend a port of:
H = 12", W = 1.25", L = 21". The other option is a round PVC type port that is 3" ID x 9.9" = L. (A very big and heavy box here)
The round port is so much easier to use and install. A flares version is even better if your can find one in that dimension. This kit is a good option:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=268-320
Swez
PS Do you have the external dimensions of a box that will fit in this vehicle yet? (H, W and D maxes?) This will be a pretty large box when built. (Almost 5 cf externally for a dual chamber, single enclosure box or dual boxes, ~2.4x cf/box)
raulbustos on 03/26/2008 21:56:06
well i think he would be a little happier with a slot type vent and to the best of my knowledge i should be able to accuratly measure and place this vent
he is curently using a box that is 14HIGH X 15 1/2 DEEP X 36 WIDE made with 3/4 MDF and still has plenty of room to expand for a biger box
and just wondering is this dementions for a single sub or for the pair
H = 12", W = 1.25", L = 21".
and unless there is a problem in design so far i was thinking of a single chamber with a single vent in the middle of the two subs or is two seperate vent required
swez on 03/26/2008 23:37:40
Mind starting a new post for this phase of the project? This one is getting too long and we now need to focus on the enclosure specs for the Alpine subs.
Suggested topic line: "Alpine SWR-1222D Vented Subwoofer Specs"
From there, we can work back to the proper dimensions.
Swez
raulbustos on 03/27/2008 07:27:41
ah okay
http://www.audiobahn.com/Audiobahn06/pages/woofers.html
a8000v class a/b
http://www.audiobahn.com/Audiobahn06/pages/amps.html
in a bandpass box
now he likes his system but he wants more
#1 some nice strong equipment that will take some punishment and last
#2 a little more bass
now i personlaly know that this guy will drive around for 3 or 4 hours with the vol turned up every day."he loves to pound" he is aparently verry hard on subs and amps and is tired of having to replace stuff. so what would you guys sudjest?
this is in a 2004 Mazda 6 with factory radio
budjet is un determened rite now but i assume some where around 600-1000
so what you say?
Replies (52)
MrBrownstone on 07/6/2007 17:48:59
Sounds like a loaded question.
What it sounds like is he's a victim of buying equipment without planning. Typically, we see this when guys have either a hodgepodge of products, or they blow things out.
In his case, owning a class A/B amplfier with an SPL subwoofer. Without knowing all of his goals and equipment it'd be difficult to identify the best choices for him.
It might be best for every if we identify what our overall goal is, and how willing we are to sacrifice ($$$) to accomplish that goal.
If he's unhappy with his system now, $600 to $1000 will get him a good class D, but ultimately, if he's blowing woofers, it's more of a USER error that's causing that problem.
Bassheads are the hardest to teach...and the most expensive. What we need to do is start with the type of enclosure he wants...which is dictated by the quality of sound.
Sounds like he needs an education on how things work, why they fail, and how to effectively use his equipment.
Here's on on speaker failure
http://p205.ezboard.com/Speaker-FailureDistortion-Clipping-and-more/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=2.topic
Send him here for an overview
http://p205.ezboard.com/FAQ-Car-Audio-Forum-Frequently-Asked-Questions/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7
I think that when someone is damaging equipment that quickly, it's a sign of lack of knowledge on how to use the product. That, or unwillingness to accept a product's limitations.
raulbustos on 07/9/2007 20:59:55
well i showed him the link that was sudjesteed and he kinda understood i tried to help him understand. i think one of
the major reasons his equipment keeps messing up is he really pushes them now looking at his amp he had the gain all the way up and the bass bost all the way up the low pass and ssf lookeed to be rite and it sounded okay.
when i asked about the setttings he said he had hired them because it wasnt strong enough .he want to get a stronger set up so he dosent have to push them to their limits to get the level of bass he wants so i confimed the budjet of $1000
and he defenatly wants a ported enclouser i said ill help to build the box but ill need some help in dementions from you all
so what do you guys sudjest in amp and sub?
kirchatndftbl on 07/9/2007 21:58:23
does he want a single sub setup or dual sub setup?????
he might be better off chosing a strong single sub setup
(less to replace if he blows it)
Single sub setup
(sub)
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=16593
(amp)
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=16367
this would produce a good amount of spl and should be able to fulfill the bass he wants and should definitely outperform the audiobahns
build a ported box to the recommended specs and you should be set
swez and everyone else can probably help come up with some other choices this is just my opinion
kirchatndftbl on 07/9/2007 22:21:12
maybe even this
2 Alpine SWR-124D subs
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=14954
Amp
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=18418
swez on 07/10/2007 01:33:49
The problem with newbie bass nutz, they are never satisfied with what they have until they blow up their gear. Using the wrong subs, improper gain settings, poorly designed enclosure and general abuse are common to the guys who don't know the rules. (By rules, I mean what a given system can take and what its limits are)
As for Bahn gear, I would not buy this brand for high SPL use as they have a track record of field failures. Crutchfield use to carry Bahn gear a few years back, but no more. Gee, I wonder why the largest full line Audio Retailer would drop Bahn as product? Hummm
For normal use and guys who know the ropes, sure... Bahn has a niche and has a few very solid products. But.... not for a Basshead that does not know when enough is too much.
Your friend needs a bullet proof set of gear that is designed to take a lot of abuse and come back for more. Or, have someone design a system from the ground up that is optimized and never touched by unskilled hands. (I would set the gains/bass boost and epoxy them so they cannot be messed with) Yeah, that does sound a bit extreme, but that's what I call "fool proofing" a good install.
I like your amp suggestion. This is a solid amp and offers plenty of clean power. However, the subs noted are not up to that power range. They are 500 RMS/sub and if ported, this amp will trash a pair of SWR's in no time.
One of these subs would do the job with that amp:
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ORI27311
It's not cheap, but can handle some serious power. Consider pitching this combo as it is compact, the sub can take serious power and move a lot of air, (Bass waves) too. The ported box is very managable as well.
Swez
SQLThump on 07/10/2007 05:00:17
Yeah, I have had the pleasure of hearing a pair of H2 12's in person, and being powered by a "mere" 1600 watts, (less than half of the capable power handling) and was VERY impressed with every aspect of their performance. Wouldn't mind hearing them at the full 4000 RMS the pair was capable of.
Why don't we try to go the usual CK route, with more sensitivity, intellingence in terms of enclosure design and the like.
800RMS can make some serious nots if paired with some good subs. Allow me to make some reccomendations.
Diamond Audio D312D4
http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/1526973/vpcsid/0/SFV/30046
400 RMS sensitivity 86DB@2.83V
These subs are more SQ based, but still offer some great knock. Not too sure about the website though, that price seems waay too good to be true. These would pair up great with his amp, and WILL hit like crazy.
Infinity Perfect 12 DVQ
http://cgi.ebay.com/INFINITY-KAPPA-PERFECT-12DVQ-12-SUBWOOFER-SUB-12-DVQ_W0QQitemZ280131429380QQihZ018QQcategoryZ18803QQcmdZViewItem
Also 400 RMS, Dual 4 ohm coils, sensitivity 92DB, I am 99% sure thats at 1Watt/1Meter
The Perfect is also a great performer, although more of an SQL sub, the also hit like crazy. They also offer a really high sensitivity rating, which would be great to milk out the most DB's out of the 800 watts available.
Also, check out your buddies gear to make sure the basic installation isn't whats lacking, as opposed to equipment choices. Make sure at least 4 gauge wire is going to the sub amp, if it is solo, and at least 0 gauge if this is a multi amp setup. Also make sure decent RCA's speaker wire and the like is also employes.
From personal expeirence, I would think the stock H/U would be the #1 stopper in the bass performance of this ride. I am assuming line output convertors are being used here, and that can be less desirable when trying do deliver an optimum amunt of signal to a high power amp. Sometimes that just doesn't get the job done, ad some have adjustable levels in the convertor itself, making a dail in even more difficult than ever.
Make sure you do some research before you send yourself and your boy into battle with a $600-1000 budget for an amp and subs, when the real enemy was a deck or wiring. $600 buys a really nice head unit nowadays, and 600-1000 buys a nice deck a lot of nice wiring, and other install parts.
raulbustos on 07/11/2007 13:48:26
well first off i do believe this is a descent install
he is using a stinger 4 gauge and this is the only amp
i helped him do the big 3 upgrade
now for him changing out the factory stereo i dont think that is an option rite now i had sudjested it but he really dint like the ideah
now i did notice that he is using high level input on the amp
im not to sure if a converter would help or not? u tell me. there is a tap runing from the wires going to a rear speaker to feed the amp
i do believe he wants two subs but at this point nothing is deffinate we are open to ideas and sudjestions.
swez on 07/11/2007 22:09:19
OK, let's break this down a few steps and get some well defined paramaters:
1. Does he have a usable amp? (Make & Model#)
2. The subs he is now using, are they working well or shot?
3. He has a stock HU and does not wish to change it now (Y/N?)
If he has an amp that has Speaker level signal and RCA's line levels, he can just tap wires off the rear speaker and use the amps' Speaker level inputs.
Note: I hear this one a lot... "Speaker level inputs are garbage quality compared to RCA line level results". Prove it to me!!! The preamps in an amp with this feature take higher voltage signals from the HU and converts them to usable levels the amp can manage. The amp has a LPF to block mids/highs and the subs only get bass.
As long as the speakers are getting a clean, noise free signal from the HU, more voltage is not a problem and the amp has features to make it work just fine. Also, as long as there are no ground loop problems in the system, the subs will be noise free too. The LPF will block out most motor noise above LPF settings unless the amp is defective or not properly grounded.
This Bahn amp mentioned before... it's a Class A/B MONO amp, 400 Wrms @ 4 ohms, 800 Wrms @ 2 ohms. It's not very efficient compared to Class D amps and does not have high signal inputs either:
http://www.cardomain.com/item/ABNA8000V?ref=gogwr&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_term=audiobahn_a8000v&gclid=CJaF4__soI0CFR6AWAodZQ4E5g
If the amp is usable, your buddy will need to install LOC's at the HU or rear speakers and convert to RCA line levels only. That's doable and not very expensive either.
Subs: Pretty simple here... get the dude some strong subs to match the amp power ratings and a tad more. He is less likely to beat them into pulp if the amp is set up properly and he keeps his "stupid hands" off the settings. (I say "Stupid Hands" as opposed to "Skilled Hands" that know what to do and why) Again, "idiot proofing" the post install settings are a good deterant and justifyable if he tinkers w/o common sense.
OK, that's my read for now. Say more about the gear he does want to use or upgrade and we'll go to round 2.
Swez
PS I don't know your buddy. However, what you have mentioned about his past episodes and blowing up gear, tells me he needs skilled hands that know what to do on the setup stage on his bass rig. If he changes things afterwards and blowns an amp or subs, he deserves the consequences. Some guys are just not teachable. They need limits imposed by the installer and live with the results or risk blowing gear.
PSS I have worked with many a DJ who did the same kind of stuff. They get a bit out of control on the mixing table and before ya know it, the club owner needs a service call to replace blown speakers. The owner is ticked off and blames the Tech installer or lame speakers. After a few of those calls and rants, our only option was to preset the limiters and lock the amp rack so the DJ cannot do anything above the presets. That's what I mean by "fool" proofing a system.
raulbustos on 07/13/2007 01:06:36
#1/#2 okay yes his curent set up is working fine and is instaled. i had adjusted the amp for him before but he turned it up again casue he wanted that more power and i told him the posible consequences.
#3 no he dose not want to replace the factory stereo
he wants new and better
amp,
sub(s),
and a box built for the sub(s).
dose not want to keep his curent equipment he wants to upgrade
ps well from my expereince with audiobahn amps this new series and the older series and the one before have all had both high and low level inputs. and i personaly saw the high level beeing used and the rca input empty.
see i have instaled some LOC's mostly when there was no speaker level inputs on an amp but some people have wanted to put them on when there system was working perfectly fine with high level.
As from what they told me they had herd that the amps will work better with rca s than high level( i never saw a diference at all ) so is there benifits for doing this in general or dose it do nothing diferent
High level VS Low level
what you say?
swez on 07/13/2007 01:22:44
I cannot tell the difference either. I have done systems both ways and cannot tell the difference.
I too have heard some guys say that RCA's are better SQ then speaker line feeds. Can't prove that one by my experience. Some amps may have better attenuation and filters, but I'm a Missouri type guy... "Show me with factual data" in a A/B comparison and then I may see things differently. About the only thing that strikes me here, is how clean a signal one gets off the HU and into the amp. If the HU is not clipping, it should be fine. That's my answer... "Prove me wrong".
OK, so what does your friend want to do next? How much space does he have for subs and $$$ for the gear? We also have to look at his power source for a given amp too. That depends on his ALT/BAT and current draw from the sub amp.
Lay out a plan and we'll help pull things together as needed.
Swez
raulbustos on 07/13/2007 09:13:59
okay for a beging budget we have $1000 now that need to buy the amp the sub(s) and materials to build a box and any other installation acessaries neded
he has the big 3 upgraded
bat is 975cca rated
stock alternator
and stinger 4 gauge wiring
and when i asked him about space he said if i neded i could use the whole trunk
swez on 07/13/2007 10:24:45
Based on that info, he's limited to about 1000 watts of amping power and that will cost about $350 for a Class D amp.
Let's focus on subs for now and find an amp after the subs are determined.
1. What is the vehicle he has to work with here? (Make and body style)
2. Does he want pure SPL or SQL for his next system?
3. Need some basic dimensions of what size his present subs are working in (H, D & W of enclosure(s) he has now)
Do you have any suggestions for him, based on what you have learned here to date?
Swez
SQLThump on 07/13/2007 11:28:47
On the topic of linelevel convertors VS high level inputs, I can't really notice a difference. I am not a big fan of either method, but sometimes it is a must.
High level inputs were broken down to me like this:
My buddy had an old amp, a POS Legacy that was really small. He showed me the signal path for the high level inputs, and the RCA jacks. The high levels plugged into the circuit board, and had to go through various capacitors and whatnots( not too familiar with what is inside amps) to end up at the same point that the RCA's wires were going into the circuit board. It was put to me like so "do you wan't your signal to have to travel through all that crap before it makes music?" I said "NOOOOO"
This was over a basic tutorial from my buddy on what does what, where and why, and how to spot a faulty component. He is pretty knowledgable on the topic, and I am always happy to learn. This was pretty cool as it was the first time my eyes peered inside an amp.
Not too big a fan of LOC's, as I have some faulty stuff happen with them in the past. Usually due to the low quality of the LOC though.
I consider myself a "BassHead," and myself have killed a couple of components here and there due to a lack of knowledge. Good ol' Swez here taught me the proper art of dailing in by ear, and my system works well, despite being a bit ghetto. Still satisfies a basshead, but wouldn't work to well if it wasn't for my attention to details, and constantly messing around trying to optimize my sounds.
$1000 sounds pretty reasonable to create a basshead satisfying system. As Swez has input, some method of "foolproofing" should occur to prevent him going and making matters worse, and killing off his expensive gear.......
You could trying building a box that encloses the amp somehow and cant be accessed without taking a sub box. I have thought of mounting an amp in an oversized, slotted, displacement compesated sound port to maximize cooling to the amp, but maybe it would be a great way to pull some foolprooofing off,
without having to silicon putty somebody's gain and bass controls.
Personally, regardless of who would do it, If I paid for an amp and somebody puttied it, it would anger me considerably. If this guy pops a sub out and were to mess with it, that would merely be a testament to this guys own stubborn behavior.
swez on 07/13/2007 14:20:11
To add a little to your comments on High signal processors there SQLT, that circuit mentioned is just like an LOC, only mounted inside the amp and designed specifically for the amps' needs.
It's a simple set of filters and attenuators is all. They take in a high voltage speaker line signal of say 8-10 volts and attenuate the signal down to a level the RCA input side of the amp can handle. Nothing more, nothing less and we don't have to mess with cheap or flaky LOC's or the HU and we still have usable rear speakers and amping from the HU to work with.
As for "fool proofing" an amp after it's been set up properly, I would use a dab of silicone sealer to cap over the gain and bass boost controls. It's easy to remove after cured and does not harm the amp in any way. But it does offer some degree of "set and forget" from the installer/techs point of view.
If the owner/user messes with the controls later and blows up a sub or the amp, it is easy to go back to the user and point out the caps have been disturbed, the user messed with it and the fault lies directly on the owner of the gear, not the installer/tech.
Sorry, but experience has taught me to be pretty hard-nosed about "fool proofing" a system I was paid to install correctly. It's been tested, tweaked for optimal performance and if needed, I would not hesitate to either mark the gain/BB setting or cap them off. That way, if something goes wrong due to unskilled hands that tampered with my work, it's their tough luck. I will not take responsibility for others who tamper after my work was done. Nuff said... Period and game over!!!
Swez
SQLThump on 07/13/2007 14:22:05
Well Put Swez!
raulbustos on 07/14/2007 09:45:14
well first of all his vehicle is a 2005 mazda 6
okay lets see either it just still to early for me (just woke up )
SPL set up focouses on power the louder the better rite?
SQ ( my fav) is about quality clean and acuriteacy rite?
SQL <.........? whats that
swez on 07/14/2007 10:21:41
well first of all his vehicle is a 2005 mazda 6
"okay lets see either it just still to early for me" (just woke up )
So I see... grab a coffee or Red Bull SMILE
"SPL set up focouses on power the louder the better rite?"
Yep, the focus is on loudness
SQ ( my fav) is about quality clean and acuriteacy rite? Accuracy?...Yep, Studio grade sound, Audiophile
SQL <.........? whats that
This is a hybrid of SQ & SPL. It's clean and accurate, but also has the ability to reach high dB numbers as desired.
Raul, you've been around here a while and have done a few things on your own too right? Based on what you have learned so far, what would you do if this was your project? What basic steps are needed to obtain solid bass performance?
Give me an outline when you wake up a bit OK?
Swez
raulbustos on 07/15/2007 10:16:54
good morning yeah yesterday was ruff all around. we have been understaffed at work and fairly busy so 13 hr shifts. and after work i have been trying to find a wiring gremblin some one cut the factory recever harnest and then found there mistake and tried to put every thing back toghether lost sound on rear and stereo turns off and on.little nightmare for now ill figure it all out and i dont think they let the smoke out yet its verry hard to get the smoke back in once its out ...
so yeah a SQL is what i would sudjest for him.
well when he was first talking to me i did think about
two alpine type R
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-MHdxUaSDCXQ/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=520&I=500SWR1222
with an alpine MRD-M1005
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-MHdxUaSDCXQ/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&I=500MRDM105
in a ported box of coarse with your help in design
amp and subs would cost around 550 add say oh 150 for materials for a box ruffly 700 for a budjet
but i said ill ask my budies see what their wise minds have to say especially since i have never personaly herd an alpine type R i had wanted to get me a set a while back but my ride broke so yeah
what you think?
swez on 07/15/2007 11:44:01
Alpine makes a solid set of amps and subs. The Type SWR series sub is their SQL sub line. They do very well in sealed enclosures and ported designs will bring up the lows nicely as well.
A little shopping on the web can bring down the price of his gear a lot. Here's the enclosure specs from Alpine on the SWR series subs: (page 2)
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/500/500SWR1242.PDF
This amp is a very good match for a pair of 2+2 DVC's. Just note the power demand for this amp is substantial when pushed hard. (~75 amperes at full power)
Many here have bought and used Alpine amps and subs with very good results. They are robust, can make some serious bass and last a long time if not abused.
Swez
raulbustos on 07/16/2007 00:57:27
so is that a good combination, is that one the best you can get within a $1000 budjet
swez on 07/16/2007 01:47:14
I don't say "THE BEST" on most things as there is no such thing.
I will say this... "If I wanted a nice system of this level, it would be a very solid choice."
Swez
raulbustos on 07/21/2007 23:25:15
okay i showed him our sudjestions he liked it and well within budjet too. but what kind and size of a box whould work better with this equipment? i originaly thought defenatly ported but sealed always sound good to me so what you say?
swez on 07/22/2007 10:26:23
For the budget he has available, this is a solid option.
Sealed or ported? That depends on "HIS" music preferences and the space he has available for the subs.
Sealed is nice and tight and can get low too. The trade off is the low end thump & bump are not as noticable. (Good bump yes, loud and deep lows are a bit less)
Port tuning will give more low end thump & bump. This is good for Rap and Hip Hop and we get that extra low kick due to port tuning the enclosure.
As for sealed and ported specs on these subs, here's the range:
Sealed box volume: 0.57-1.0 cu. ft. (0.85 ft^3/sub is optimal SQL target) Alpine suggests: 13.0" H x 13.0" W x 12.5" D per sub. These are external dimensions of a sealed box, using 3/4" MDF.
Ported box volume: 0.75-2.0 cu. ft. (1.7 ft^3/sub is optimal target for thump & bump) The specs of the box and vent are noted on page 2 of the manual. This is probably the way for your friend to go. This goes lower and will have more low end bump.
See sub manual for details: (Page 2 specs)
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/500/500SWR1242.PDF
Do you understand the box perameters for ported/vented box as you look at page 2 of the manual?
Swez
raulbustos on 07/22/2007 21:45:34
well i do think he will be better off with the ported box as well. and some of the box diagrams make sense but the port is confusing to me.
swez on 07/23/2007 15:53:23
Alpine specs offer the recommended box and vent size. (It's all there in black & white) The trick is understanding what the numbers mean. The easiest way is to grab some graphing paper and draw out a picture to scale or fabricate a cardboard box of the dimensions he can use.
Yes, dimensions can be altered if the box won't fit the space he is working in. However, some good measurments will confirm that. If he needs to adjust the box parameters, someone here can offer some suggestions. Each sub will need about 2.0 ft^3 externally. When we subtract the vent and sub displacement values, each sub will have an internal chamber of ~1.3 ft^3/sub.
If that is too big for his car, he can either go sealed or shrink the ported box and adjust port tuning and still get very good results. Ported is indeed a good option for guys who want lots of deep bass and have the space to work with.
Swez
raulbustos on 07/24/2007 23:45:20
well i was told i could use all the space needed to optimize this equipment and i do believe we could fit a 2.0 ft^3 per chamber box. I cant remmeber how to get the cubic footage of a box could you tell me how big this box is 14HIGH X 15 1/2 DEEP X 36 WIDE made with 3/4 MDF this is a sealed box with a devider in the middle these are out side demensions
swez on 07/25/2007 08:31:26
External space here is calculated like this:
36 x 14 x 15.5 = 7812/1728 = 4.5 ft^3 (Externally)
I ran these numbers to calculate internal air space for each chamber and that comes out to 3.42/2 = 1.7 ft^3/chamber. That's a perfect fit for his Alpine SWR subs once the vent and sub displacements are accounted for.
You guys are on the right track here. Good work so far!
Swez
raulbustos on 07/26/2007 13:14:21
well this is actually my box and i tried to put it in his trunk and it fit easily. so puting a box into his car bulit for these subs shouldent be a problem rite?
swez on 07/26/2007 13:24:45
Is this box ported/vented now? If yes, knowing the port dimensions or port tuning info would be most helpful.
Do you have a picture or a link to the sub enclosure you are using here?
Swez
raulbustos on 07/26/2007 16:00:47
no this is a selaed box as i had built it for me and had made it for a pair of the bahn's that was noted at the beging of this topic. i could take a pic but i dont know where to post it on the net so you can see it? do u?
swez on 07/26/2007 19:29:15
If your buddy wants to use this box, it's too large for the Alpine SWR subs unless he ports it and adds some internal material to take up internal airspace.
His port size could be:
4.0" dia
11.0" length
Tuning freq: 38 Hz in a 1.7 ft^3/chamber
This is an approximation value. To dial things in more closely, I would need the "internal" dimension of this box. (H, W & D) for each chamber.
Swez
PS Most guys post pics at photobucket.com and then link that to this site with hyperlinks.
raulbustos on 07/27/2007 09:54:39
oh no he wont be using this box we will be building him a new one i was simply saying that this box fit in his car wouldent the box that we build for him be a little smaller?
Victor on 07/27/2007 10:08:00
yes it will be....
swez on 07/27/2007 16:13:32
It probably will be, depending on whether he uses a round port or slotted vent style system. He can also use 2 round ports per chamber and the port length will half the length of a single port.
1 port: 4.0" dia. 11.0" long
2 ports: 4.0" dia 5.5" long per port
FYI: Vent style ports take up more room inside a given enclosure. To get the same affect in a compact enclosure, round ports help a lot.
Swez
raulbustos on 07/29/2007 20:16:39
would there be a diference in sound between the two diferent types of ports?
swez on 07/30/2007 09:59:02
Vents are very good for high SPL bass applications. When done well, they do allow better airflow for high SPL bass. Round ports are good for medium and low powered bass systems.
In this case, it's a coin toss. Alpine recommends tuned vents. They are not overly difficult to fabricate, but do require careful placement and measuring before you build. If that seems a bit out of your skill levels, prefab ports are a very good solution. (Especially flared ports) Here, we can choose 4-6" diameter ports. One pair per chamber would be a very good option. They are much easier to install if you have a good circle cutting tool. (Router or Rotozip with compass attachment or a hole saw will do very well)
Your choice will be determined by woodworking skills and your buddy's preferences. The other option for a high SQL system, would be sealed. This is the easiest box to make, but not as efficient at deep low bass. (A few dB less deep bass here)
Comments?
Swez
PS Here's a box design you can use as a template for a vented enclosure system. Subzone HD-12V:
http://www.subzoneusa.com/new_hshd_series.htm
http://www.subzoneusa.com/hd-12v.htm
PSS If you think building this type of enclosure is beyond your skills, you can buy this box for about $150.00 shipped. If you build it, figure about $80.00 in materials alone.
raulbustos on 08/2/2007 01:30:00
well i dont think that building this box would be a problem i have a descent amount of woodworking skills and my dad has a lot of the biger tools needed i have only built 5 boxes before so where i really need help on is dementions and design
ps. my internet has been giving me some probs night before last i was replying and it gave out on me so just so you know i havent lost intrest
swez on 08/2/2007 17:15:30
Got it, am glad you are still on the project and able to fab the box as needed.
Alpine specs do give the overall enclosure specs and also vent details. The general box specs noted can be adjusted to fit a given vehicle as needed. However, the net results need to be close to the optimal parameters given:
Internal air space is maintained
The vent volume is maintained
We account for sub and vent displacements
Other than that, we can change H, W, D as needed, but compensate for any changes so the net air space is on target. A 1.3 ft^3/chamber is recommended by Alpine. Then we add sub and vent displacements for a nominal 1.7 ft^3 per chamber. That is the target you'll be shooting for.
Does this makes sense to you?
Swez
raulbustos on 08/7/2007 08:54:29
yes sir sounds like a winning plan i am just waiting to order the merchandise my friend twisted his ankle so i have been waiting for him but i will be starting my prodject soon so thank you for all of your wisdom and any assistance
swez on 08/7/2007 15:06:02
Raul, you are most welcome. "Plan your work, work your plan and execute the job with skill" and it will be a great project.
Swez
raulbustos on 01/15/2008 14:06:26
okay so this has finaly started yesterday we ordered
two 12"alpine type R 2 ohm dvc
DEH-P880PRS
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Source/CD-Players/DEH-P880PRS
and a dash instalation kit ------ (expensive for a mazda 6)
next we will be ordering an amp and start building a box
my friend decided to invest in a better all around setup
we will later be insatlling some mids and tweets powerd by a seperat amp after this
raulbustos on 01/17/2008 20:04:52
hello he wants to keep his stering wheel controls functional.
is this the proper adapter?
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=118900&i=127SWIPS&c=3&tp=476&avf=N
they dont have the cd player that we will be using and how hard is it to install one of these i never have done one before?
swez on 01/18/2008 06:09:33
If using a CD changer, these are generally pretty easy to install. In most cases, it's a data/signal/audio cable and power lines in a single cable. Just make sure it is one that is compatible with the HU noted earlier. (Nice HU too)
A better option is an I-Pod via the AUX inputs of this HU. That too is pretty straight forward and the HU menu system does all the integration for you. The I-Pod gives many more tunes to save and access, less bulky and no CD's to change in and out as well. You can take the I-Pod out and use it as a portable device. The CD changer is a "fixed position" option and one is limited to slower music access features as well.
Swez
raulbustos on 01/22/2008 18:50:58
no he is not using a cd changer he just wants to be able to higer and lower the volume and change songs or stations like he can now with his factory stereo from the steering wheel
swez on 01/23/2008 04:51:43
Got it... there are add on harnesses for keeping that feature like the one noted in your earlier post. If you are unsure it will work with his vehicle and HU, contact Crutch and confirm that is the right item for his needs.
Swez
raulbustos on 01/26/2008 01:00:31
okay lets see first let me list what we have here
hu pioneer premier DEH-P880PRS
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Source/CD-Players/DEH-P880PRS
Two alpine type R 2ohm dvc
an alpine MRP-M1000 <...on order rite now
to power the subs
some Boston Acoustics SX60 for the front
and Boston Acoustics SX55 for the back
an alpine MRP-F450 considering to power the bostons
(is this a good choice?)
http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/products/series-c.php?category=AMP
so first off what do you think of the equipment that we went with?
and now my questions what do you sudjust for wireing
i originaly was going to use stinger but i think we will use knukonceptz for budjet my question is what gauge to use ?
posibility 1/0to a ditribution an 4gauge to the two amps what you say?
swez on 01/26/2008 04:59:14
Both amps have pretty strong power ratings and recommeded fusing for each is 100A's for the M1000 and 50A's for the F450. That would flag most to use 1/0 power line to a D-block and then #4 to the sub amp and #8 to the 4 channel.
Have used Knuconceptz wiring and hardware before and found them to be very good quality, well designed and at reasonable prices.
The amps mentioned are a very good match with the speakers and subs noted above. The BA SX-55's are rated for 35 watts RMS, so you will have to be careful when setting amp gain for these speakers so they don't fry with too much power.
The best way I know of is using an AC Voltmeter for gain settings and a 4 ohm speaker as the load. A 4 ohm dummy load works well too. But the dummy load has to be able to handle the wattage you are throwing into it.
Tech Tip: Component type speakers are difficult to obtain accurate voltage setting due to the passive crossover network. Here, a calibrated test tones/pink noise and a full range speaker w/o any caps or coils is best. (one of your subs wired at 4 ohm will do a good job for this setup step)
When you get to this stage, will give you the target voltages for each amp and go from there.
Good choices all around here Raul,
Swez
raulbustos on 03/25/2008 08:28:30
ah the snow is melting the birds are singing and it time to start a new season. so my friend finaly paid for the sub box to get built.
i have to go and buy the mdf but first i want to make sure on how much to get since its $60 worth of gas to go get them
i figure two sheets of 3/4 mdf will do the trick but i need to see about demensions of the box so we can carefully calculate the cuts of board
so correct me if im wrong but we aiming for 1.7 ft^3 ported enclosure
swez on 03/26/2008 17:25:57
Since you have the Alpine SWR-1222D subs and want to go ported, Crutchfield recommends 1.7 ft^3 per chamber for each sub. Yes, you have that number correct.
Figure the sub displacement will be about 0.1 cf/sub. If using round ports, (3" dia, x 9.9" L, each port displacement will be ~0.03 cf/port) That nets 1.7 + 0.13 = 1.83 cf internally per chamber.
If you go with a sloted port design, they recommend a port of:
H = 12", W = 1.25", L = 21". The other option is a round PVC type port that is 3" ID x 9.9" = L. (A very big and heavy box here)
The round port is so much easier to use and install. A flares version is even better if your can find one in that dimension. This kit is a good option:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=268-320
Swez
PS Do you have the external dimensions of a box that will fit in this vehicle yet? (H, W and D maxes?) This will be a pretty large box when built. (Almost 5 cf externally for a dual chamber, single enclosure box or dual boxes, ~2.4x cf/box)
raulbustos on 03/26/2008 21:56:06
well i think he would be a little happier with a slot type vent and to the best of my knowledge i should be able to accuratly measure and place this vent
he is curently using a box that is 14HIGH X 15 1/2 DEEP X 36 WIDE made with 3/4 MDF and still has plenty of room to expand for a biger box
and just wondering is this dementions for a single sub or for the pair
H = 12", W = 1.25", L = 21".
and unless there is a problem in design so far i was thinking of a single chamber with a single vent in the middle of the two subs or is two seperate vent required
swez on 03/26/2008 23:37:40
Mind starting a new post for this phase of the project? This one is getting too long and we now need to focus on the enclosure specs for the Alpine subs.
Suggested topic line: "Alpine SWR-1222D Vented Subwoofer Specs"
From there, we can work back to the proper dimensions.
Swez
raulbustos on 03/27/2008 07:27:41
ah okay
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