I am very happy with my Infinity Kappa components but I would like to find a pair of 2 Ohm ?silk? or ? Tweeters to see how they sound.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Replies (15)
swez on 07/3/2007 12:21:24
That's tough call as JBL/Infinity use silks, but only in the 4 ohm versions of their Reference Series Comps. To use them, one would need to change a few components in the crossovers.
The standard tweets in this package you have are Metal Matrix Dome (MMD) tweeters. They are 2 ohm units and may sound a bit edgy at high SPL levels too. (Is that your concern... "Listener's fatigue"?)
Infinity does offer a textile dome tweeter and available at Crutchfield too. However, the crossover frequency is not the same as your present Comp crossovers. If you wanted to change over to textile domes, you'd have to use the crossover that comes with this tweeter and disconnect the present Comp tweeter and add a 2 ohm load resistor to protect the crossover.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-OzPvQA35KHo/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=430&tab=detailed_info&i=1081021T#Tab
This conversion is doable, but not a cheap and easy swap.
Comments?
Swez
jamesp on 07/3/2007 13:02:25
Thanks Swez, yes they are a little bright but I need to work on the PEQ and see if I can tone them down a bit. I have the crossover switch set to 0dB and have never tried the +3dB setting. Maybe I can set them up to +3dB then broaden the Q response at the brightest range..Ill play with them some and see.They definitly will put out when asked to.
If those tweets in the link you posted were 2 Ohm Id give them a try as the flush mount hole for these Infinities is larger than the the ones I cut for the Rockford component tweeters. The ones you linked would drop right in. Im pretty my current tweeters H/Pat 3500Hz
Victor on 07/3/2007 15:41:29
something tells me those tweets are beaming...
try all possible mounting places, the a pillars, somewhere in the front doors, kick pods etc....
try changing the orientation of those tweets.. directing them downwards, into the windscreen, or both the tweeters firing into each other etc...
if they sound real bright then try covering them with some thin porous material like a cloth..silk and cotton here have different effects on the sound too
. you can add multiple layers to see the difference in sound and keep the one that suits ur listening needs.. you will need to do a tidy job covering them though...
if all this doesnt work then the way swez suggested is the best way out....
Victor...
swez on 07/3/2007 21:52:42
Try setting the crossover attenuators at -3dB. This will cut the highs to the tweets enough to make them noticably less bright or harsh. You can always use the PEQ function in the HU to smooth out the response curve as well. (Tweeter range here is 3.5KHz - 20KHz.)
The area our ears are most sensitive to, is above 1KHz to about 5KHz. So, your PEQ setting adjustments will be focused between 3KHz -10KHz. Here, a wider Q setting may help and attenuate as needed.
Victor offers a good solution to the "beaming effect" of a given tweeter and it's location to the listener. Basically, the cloth acts like a diffuser and will attenuate/diffuse high frequencies well, depending on how porous the cloth is and how much is used.
Keep at it and you'll find a good solution w/o spending extra cash or ripping apart the car panels.
Swez
jamesp on 07/4/2007 16:04:51
Thanks for the good advice guys.
I have been using Talking Heads, Burning Down the House, for tuning reference since I began this system install. These tweets do an almost perfect job on this tune. I find the brightness mostly when listening to Mp3's.
I have only 2 settings on the crossovers, 0dB or +3dB.
Here is a pic link of the tweet location. The pic shows the Rockford tweeter but I enlarged the mounting and installed the Infinities there. I can rotate and angle them a fair amount.
I will try the covering and see what that does. I just played with the PEQ in the range between 3.5 and 6.5 K and widened the Q curve a bit and it seems to have helped remove some of the "shimmer" that I dont like.
The objectionable sound is more present with the ripped Mp3's and Satellite Radio I have and not really there on full file recordings.
Pic Link:
http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p265/jamesp_1/F-150%20ext%20cab%20Lariat/?action=view¤t=DSCN2060.jpg
Victor on 07/4/2007 16:53:02
try ripping your songs with the lame encoder
set the bitrate at 320kbps.. bigger files but better quality..
dont use joint or dual stereo, just simply select high quality stereo..
grab the files via an intermediate .wav file..
use normalising but only under these conditions..
when the peak level is lower than 91% or higher than 99%.
normalise speed 500% of normal audio and cd audio read speed @100% of normal audio..
try burning your cd's at 32kbps along with all this..
will definitely help u improve a lot on the quality of tracks you rip from or burn on cd media..
hope this helps...
Victor..
swez on 07/4/2007 16:54:02
MP3 may be a good part of the problem when bit rate samplings are 128 or lower. CD quality rate samples are typically 192 and sound very good w/ minimal digital compression. The next level up is High Def Audio w/ bit rates above 300. Victor shot me a few Indian Show tunes at high bit rates and they are very clean.
Continue working with the PEQ at that range and attenuate this section a tad more. If your HU also has a Loudness Contour feature, turn it off and see if that helps a bit as well.
Other DSP features can enhance or degrade audio performance as well. If using any of them, try a few adjustments or defeat that function as well. Some HU's do a nice job manipulating Digital recordings while others are terrible.
Swez
PS Good choice of reference music. That is a good cut, lots of interesting recording techniques and ear candy. Fair dynamic range test too. I just grabbed a cut and note the vocals may be very shrill and the shimmer is not bad at 211 bit rate. Good low thump, very nice drum kit mixing, nice synth in the middle too.The thing I note most is the thin vocals here.
PS Try a cut from the Doobie Brother's: "Steamer Lane Breakdown" It's a really complex Bluegrass cut with some nice guitar work, simple bass and drums and some very nice banjo and fiddle too. (No Vocals) This will "sizzle a lot" on low bit rates. This one moves pretty fast and good for transient testing of Mids and tweets.
"Black Water" is also very good. Nice vocals to dial in on, smooth and bright acoutical guitar and a nice fiddle interlude as well. The back and forth guitar/fiddle and voicing are nicely done too.
Do you like Boz Scaggs? Try "Harbor Lights". Nice keyboard, (Fender Rhodes) delicate drums and good voices to tune on. This has a very airy and open feel until the last minute when the music changes to a more Latin beat.
jamesp on 07/4/2007 23:28:10
Victor, could you please tell me what the lame encoder is?
I really didnt expect this but you nailed it, with 3 layers of poly/cotton blend cloth held over each tweeter the "noise"that I dont like is muted out completly..These tweets have a fine mesh, silver or aluminum cover made onto the them.I can pop them out of the flush mount hartdware and cover them and the mount will serve as finish trim. The mesh grills on them look nice but..they sound better to me covered and dont lose volume. They sounded perfect in the test. Thanks for the tip...
Swez, I have the Doobie Bros songs...and probably the Bozz Scaggs too, somewhere...Love em both.
The DSP feature is pretty cool , I like the sound and to show the feature to my buds but dont find myself ever listening much with it enabled.I like to select the "Club" setting then ""Cathedra"l when demonstrating the feature to someone for the contrast but its just a bell or whistle,,,Some Joe Walsh stuff sounds good to me with it but its just not the way the track was recorded.
Got the listen to the songs you suggested. A lot of the music of our youth makes me a little on the nostagic side..in a good way mostly...Hard to believe that when I saw T-Rex open for the Doobie Bros in Atlanta it was 35 years ago...time flies...Thanks.
Victor on 07/5/2007 01:42:07
Glad to know the idea worked for you...
there are several programs which encode and decode music into various desired formats..
lame is an excellent mp3 encoder... basically it converts/compresses CD audio and other formats in to mp3...
its either available as a source code or with other encoding softwares..
audiograbber is a very nice free software to convert music..it uses the lame encoder,
http://www.audiograbber.com-us.net/download.html
if the download u get from this site has an older version of the lame encoder then you can download the latest from this site..
http://lame.sourceforge.net/download.php
hope this helps...
Victor..
jamesp on 07/6/2007 16:41:12
Thanks for the helpGRIN
MrBrownstone on 07/6/2007 17:32:03
There is no such thing as a +3 or +6 dB setting.
+6 = the zero dB
+3 = -3dB
0 = -6dB
when using an xover that has 3 settings. The purpose of the 0dB setting is for people to get used to the high efficiency of the tweeter.
I will say, that in 90% of cases, if you have a brightness issue,it's the 1kHz to 3.3kHz range that is giving you the most issues. That should be coming out of your midrange driver...unless you have horns.
If you change anything, change that frequency of the crossover to where the midrange (4" or 5" speaker) is cut off @ around 4kHz...5kHz if your midrange is a great quality speaker.
From there, the natural inefficiency of the larger driver @ higher frequencies will quell your distaste for the ringing & pinging...as well as safeguard your tweeter...which should be doing VERY little work in your system anyway.
swez on 07/6/2007 18:29:03
Good that Victor's mesh filters worked out for you.
Mr. B. has mentioned the obvious, (but not well explained aspects) about passive filter networks. They cannot boost any frequencies, but they can attenuate a very efficient tweeter so that it balances well with its MB woofer component.
A +3dB setting means the tweeter is 3 dB more sensitive and thus more output then the mated woofer. A 0dB settings means the tweeter is attentuated to match woofer efficiency. Yes, this sounds very counter-intuitive, but that's how it works.
Swez
jamesp on 07/6/2007 19:43:48
Mr B, these crossovers have only 2 settings: 0dB and +3dB....I have never tried the +3dB setting. I am a bit confused about your first statement(
Quote:
(There is no such thing as a +3 or +6 dB setting.
+6 = the zero dB
+3 = -3dB
0 = -6dB)
The switch on these crossovers has to be set at one or the other setting and they are labeled 0db and +3dB
Im redoing the time alignment and PEQ setup. This unit makes it so easy
I have plugged in and positioned the mic and am going to re-do the sequence where the head unit generates its own pink noise at increasing steps of volume...recording the parameters the mic sees on a memory stick. I plug the memory stick in the laptop and it sets uo a corrested PEQ profile. Actually it makes four profiled and you can adjust each one either on the laptop or on the headunit.
The profiles created are supposed to be 1. best balanced
2. low end emphasis
3 incrrased midrange
4.inc mids and enhanced highs or something like that
This time I will do the tweaking , if necessary on the computer so I have the original set up still intaxt if I screw it up
I have a oretty decent state of tune goining on right now but have disconnected the power and when you do that you lose the graphical representation of each of the 4 setups, Each of the 7 ranges adjusted are still there with the shaped Q selection still set where they are in the Hz range and boost or cut range and visible but the bar graph on the right side of the display is lost.
I have the EQ settings saved on a CD and memory stick but if you reinstall them after a power disconnect the bar graphs are not on the display.
Just been playing around with this system a bit more lately waiting for my hand to heal enough to get back on the ol Harley and do some riding in this pretty weather.
jamesp on 07/6/2007 20:08:41
Swez, if could and get a chance I wish you would shoot a cut of the Doobie Bros, Steamer Lane Breakdown. I ripped it twice above 90 percent and lost the host file......Thanks
swez on 07/6/2007 22:17:56
Me too... that file is protected by anti-shareware and cannot be exported. I will try something and see if it works.
This is a 128 bitrate, so it may have a bit more "sizzle" in the highs then we'd like.
Check your e-mail,
Swez
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Replies (15)
swez on 07/3/2007 12:21:24
That's tough call as JBL/Infinity use silks, but only in the 4 ohm versions of their Reference Series Comps. To use them, one would need to change a few components in the crossovers.
The standard tweets in this package you have are Metal Matrix Dome (MMD) tweeters. They are 2 ohm units and may sound a bit edgy at high SPL levels too. (Is that your concern... "Listener's fatigue"?)
Infinity does offer a textile dome tweeter and available at Crutchfield too. However, the crossover frequency is not the same as your present Comp crossovers. If you wanted to change over to textile domes, you'd have to use the crossover that comes with this tweeter and disconnect the present Comp tweeter and add a 2 ohm load resistor to protect the crossover.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-OzPvQA35KHo/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=430&tab=detailed_info&i=1081021T#Tab
This conversion is doable, but not a cheap and easy swap.
Comments?
Swez
jamesp on 07/3/2007 13:02:25
Thanks Swez, yes they are a little bright but I need to work on the PEQ and see if I can tone them down a bit. I have the crossover switch set to 0dB and have never tried the +3dB setting. Maybe I can set them up to +3dB then broaden the Q response at the brightest range..Ill play with them some and see.They definitly will put out when asked to.
If those tweets in the link you posted were 2 Ohm Id give them a try as the flush mount hole for these Infinities is larger than the the ones I cut for the Rockford component tweeters. The ones you linked would drop right in. Im pretty my current tweeters H/Pat 3500Hz
Victor on 07/3/2007 15:41:29
something tells me those tweets are beaming...
try all possible mounting places, the a pillars, somewhere in the front doors, kick pods etc....
try changing the orientation of those tweets.. directing them downwards, into the windscreen, or both the tweeters firing into each other etc...
if they sound real bright then try covering them with some thin porous material like a cloth..silk and cotton here have different effects on the sound too
. you can add multiple layers to see the difference in sound and keep the one that suits ur listening needs.. you will need to do a tidy job covering them though...
if all this doesnt work then the way swez suggested is the best way out....
Victor...
swez on 07/3/2007 21:52:42
Try setting the crossover attenuators at -3dB. This will cut the highs to the tweets enough to make them noticably less bright or harsh. You can always use the PEQ function in the HU to smooth out the response curve as well. (Tweeter range here is 3.5KHz - 20KHz.)
The area our ears are most sensitive to, is above 1KHz to about 5KHz. So, your PEQ setting adjustments will be focused between 3KHz -10KHz. Here, a wider Q setting may help and attenuate as needed.
Victor offers a good solution to the "beaming effect" of a given tweeter and it's location to the listener. Basically, the cloth acts like a diffuser and will attenuate/diffuse high frequencies well, depending on how porous the cloth is and how much is used.
Keep at it and you'll find a good solution w/o spending extra cash or ripping apart the car panels.
Swez
jamesp on 07/4/2007 16:04:51
Thanks for the good advice guys.
I have been using Talking Heads, Burning Down the House, for tuning reference since I began this system install. These tweets do an almost perfect job on this tune. I find the brightness mostly when listening to Mp3's.
I have only 2 settings on the crossovers, 0dB or +3dB.
Here is a pic link of the tweet location. The pic shows the Rockford tweeter but I enlarged the mounting and installed the Infinities there. I can rotate and angle them a fair amount.
I will try the covering and see what that does. I just played with the PEQ in the range between 3.5 and 6.5 K and widened the Q curve a bit and it seems to have helped remove some of the "shimmer" that I dont like.
The objectionable sound is more present with the ripped Mp3's and Satellite Radio I have and not really there on full file recordings.
Pic Link:
http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p265/jamesp_1/F-150%20ext%20cab%20Lariat/?action=view¤t=DSCN2060.jpg
Victor on 07/4/2007 16:53:02
try ripping your songs with the lame encoder
set the bitrate at 320kbps.. bigger files but better quality..
dont use joint or dual stereo, just simply select high quality stereo..
grab the files via an intermediate .wav file..
use normalising but only under these conditions..
when the peak level is lower than 91% or higher than 99%.
normalise speed 500% of normal audio and cd audio read speed @100% of normal audio..
try burning your cd's at 32kbps along with all this..
will definitely help u improve a lot on the quality of tracks you rip from or burn on cd media..
hope this helps...
Victor..
swez on 07/4/2007 16:54:02
MP3 may be a good part of the problem when bit rate samplings are 128 or lower. CD quality rate samples are typically 192 and sound very good w/ minimal digital compression. The next level up is High Def Audio w/ bit rates above 300. Victor shot me a few Indian Show tunes at high bit rates and they are very clean.
Continue working with the PEQ at that range and attenuate this section a tad more. If your HU also has a Loudness Contour feature, turn it off and see if that helps a bit as well.
Other DSP features can enhance or degrade audio performance as well. If using any of them, try a few adjustments or defeat that function as well. Some HU's do a nice job manipulating Digital recordings while others are terrible.
Swez
PS Good choice of reference music. That is a good cut, lots of interesting recording techniques and ear candy. Fair dynamic range test too. I just grabbed a cut and note the vocals may be very shrill and the shimmer is not bad at 211 bit rate. Good low thump, very nice drum kit mixing, nice synth in the middle too.The thing I note most is the thin vocals here.
PS Try a cut from the Doobie Brother's: "Steamer Lane Breakdown" It's a really complex Bluegrass cut with some nice guitar work, simple bass and drums and some very nice banjo and fiddle too. (No Vocals) This will "sizzle a lot" on low bit rates. This one moves pretty fast and good for transient testing of Mids and tweets.
"Black Water" is also very good. Nice vocals to dial in on, smooth and bright acoutical guitar and a nice fiddle interlude as well. The back and forth guitar/fiddle and voicing are nicely done too.
Do you like Boz Scaggs? Try "Harbor Lights". Nice keyboard, (Fender Rhodes) delicate drums and good voices to tune on. This has a very airy and open feel until the last minute when the music changes to a more Latin beat.
jamesp on 07/4/2007 23:28:10
Victor, could you please tell me what the lame encoder is?
I really didnt expect this but you nailed it, with 3 layers of poly/cotton blend cloth held over each tweeter the "noise"that I dont like is muted out completly..These tweets have a fine mesh, silver or aluminum cover made onto the them.I can pop them out of the flush mount hartdware and cover them and the mount will serve as finish trim. The mesh grills on them look nice but..they sound better to me covered and dont lose volume. They sounded perfect in the test. Thanks for the tip...
Swez, I have the Doobie Bros songs...and probably the Bozz Scaggs too, somewhere...Love em both.
The DSP feature is pretty cool , I like the sound and to show the feature to my buds but dont find myself ever listening much with it enabled.I like to select the "Club" setting then ""Cathedra"l when demonstrating the feature to someone for the contrast but its just a bell or whistle,,,Some Joe Walsh stuff sounds good to me with it but its just not the way the track was recorded.
Got the listen to the songs you suggested. A lot of the music of our youth makes me a little on the nostagic side..in a good way mostly...Hard to believe that when I saw T-Rex open for the Doobie Bros in Atlanta it was 35 years ago...time flies...Thanks.
Victor on 07/5/2007 01:42:07
Glad to know the idea worked for you...
there are several programs which encode and decode music into various desired formats..
lame is an excellent mp3 encoder... basically it converts/compresses CD audio and other formats in to mp3...
its either available as a source code or with other encoding softwares..
audiograbber is a very nice free software to convert music..it uses the lame encoder,
http://www.audiograbber.com-us.net/download.html
if the download u get from this site has an older version of the lame encoder then you can download the latest from this site..
http://lame.sourceforge.net/download.php
hope this helps...
Victor..
jamesp on 07/6/2007 16:41:12
Thanks for the helpGRIN
MrBrownstone on 07/6/2007 17:32:03
There is no such thing as a +3 or +6 dB setting.
+6 = the zero dB
+3 = -3dB
0 = -6dB
when using an xover that has 3 settings. The purpose of the 0dB setting is for people to get used to the high efficiency of the tweeter.
I will say, that in 90% of cases, if you have a brightness issue,it's the 1kHz to 3.3kHz range that is giving you the most issues. That should be coming out of your midrange driver...unless you have horns.
If you change anything, change that frequency of the crossover to where the midrange (4" or 5" speaker) is cut off @ around 4kHz...5kHz if your midrange is a great quality speaker.
From there, the natural inefficiency of the larger driver @ higher frequencies will quell your distaste for the ringing & pinging...as well as safeguard your tweeter...which should be doing VERY little work in your system anyway.
swez on 07/6/2007 18:29:03
Good that Victor's mesh filters worked out for you.
Mr. B. has mentioned the obvious, (but not well explained aspects) about passive filter networks. They cannot boost any frequencies, but they can attenuate a very efficient tweeter so that it balances well with its MB woofer component.
A +3dB setting means the tweeter is 3 dB more sensitive and thus more output then the mated woofer. A 0dB settings means the tweeter is attentuated to match woofer efficiency. Yes, this sounds very counter-intuitive, but that's how it works.
Swez
jamesp on 07/6/2007 19:43:48
Mr B, these crossovers have only 2 settings: 0dB and +3dB....I have never tried the +3dB setting. I am a bit confused about your first statement(
Quote:
(There is no such thing as a +3 or +6 dB setting.
+6 = the zero dB
+3 = -3dB
0 = -6dB)
The switch on these crossovers has to be set at one or the other setting and they are labeled 0db and +3dB
Im redoing the time alignment and PEQ setup. This unit makes it so easy
I have plugged in and positioned the mic and am going to re-do the sequence where the head unit generates its own pink noise at increasing steps of volume...recording the parameters the mic sees on a memory stick. I plug the memory stick in the laptop and it sets uo a corrested PEQ profile. Actually it makes four profiled and you can adjust each one either on the laptop or on the headunit.
The profiles created are supposed to be 1. best balanced
2. low end emphasis
3 incrrased midrange
4.inc mids and enhanced highs or something like that
This time I will do the tweaking , if necessary on the computer so I have the original set up still intaxt if I screw it up
I have a oretty decent state of tune goining on right now but have disconnected the power and when you do that you lose the graphical representation of each of the 4 setups, Each of the 7 ranges adjusted are still there with the shaped Q selection still set where they are in the Hz range and boost or cut range and visible but the bar graph on the right side of the display is lost.
I have the EQ settings saved on a CD and memory stick but if you reinstall them after a power disconnect the bar graphs are not on the display.
Just been playing around with this system a bit more lately waiting for my hand to heal enough to get back on the ol Harley and do some riding in this pretty weather.
jamesp on 07/6/2007 20:08:41
Swez, if could and get a chance I wish you would shoot a cut of the Doobie Bros, Steamer Lane Breakdown. I ripped it twice above 90 percent and lost the host file......Thanks
swez on 07/6/2007 22:17:56
Me too... that file is protected by anti-shareware and cannot be exported. I will try something and see if it works.
This is a 128 bitrate, so it may have a bit more "sizzle" in the highs then we'd like.
Check your e-mail,
Swez
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