CURRENT SETUP:
(For simplicities sake, this is entirely relative to my bass engine, which I find to simply not be powerful enough SPL.)
2x Eclipse SW6200 12" subwoofers, each receiving 300w RMS power.
http://www.eclipse-web.com/sw6000/sw6200.html
Powered by a Directed Audio D2400 MONO block amplifier. This amp is a beast, capable of pushing 1,200 wRMS.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_4336_DEI+-+Directed+Audio+D2400.html
POSSIBILITIES :
1.) I was thinking of upgrading to new subwoofers, Soundstream has a nice subwoofer that is capable of handling 600w RMS. Netting a 3dB SPL increase, 2x the power nets 3dB SPL increase, correct?
2.) I was recently thinking of the possibility of buying 3, or possibly 4 subwoofers, thus increasing the bass engine by a factor of 2. The SPL would then be calculated by adding the SPL rating of each sub at max efficiency?
Questions and concerns about Possibility 2.
a.) Can I run 3, 4 Subwoofers with this amplifier?
b.) Which one will produce more SPL, 2 subwoofers at 600w RMS, or 4 subwoofers at 300wRMS?
c.) I drive a 1994 Camaro and I do understand that power hungry subs often require around 1ft³ enclosure volume sealed (i'd like to not go ported.) I am willing to design this box myself so that it fits into my vehicle and it top quality.
Thoughts?
Also open to other suggestions, maybe 2 15" s? Whatever produces more SPL. I neeeeeed the vibration. ;D
Replies (46)
cplkittle on 07/1/2007 07:52:13
"1.) I was thinking of upgrading to new subwoofers, Soundstream has a nice subwoofer that is capable of handling 600w RMS. Netting a 3dB SPL increase, 2x the power nets 3dB SPL increase, correct?"
Not a simple yes or no answer here.. The sub that can handle twice as much power is not necessarily twice as loud. Two main factors that will decide this are excursion and efficiency. If the excursion is the same, but the bigger sub is >5 dB less efficient, there is a good chance there will not be a noticeable difference.
The only case where 2x power = 2x volume is if you are using the same woofer and you give it twice as much power as you previously gave it. ( without exceeding the sub's limits )
"a.) Can I run 3, 4 Subwoofers with this amplifier?"
- you can run as many subs off of the same amplifier as you want as long as the ohm load of the speakers matches the ohm capability of the amplifier, and you are within the recommended power of each sub.
"b.) Which one will produce more SPL, 2 subwoofers at 600w RMS, or 4 subwoofers at 300wRMS?"
- Neither. You have doubled the surface area, but also cut the power in half. The output would be the same.
In your opening statement, you said you were looking for SPL and your current setup was simply not enough, but you mentioned later on that you didn't want to go ported.
You do realize that you can up to double the output of your system just by going from sealed to ported don't you?
swez on 07/1/2007 09:48:37
One thing that Eclipse does not state, are the efficiency levels of their subs. (XXdB SPL@ 1w/1m???) The power handling of these subs is a modest 350 Wrms/sub. This makes for a good SQL bass system when sealed, but not a power house SPL system as you now seem to crave.
As Kittle states, ported subs are more efficient at the port tuning frequency, (PTF) and a range near same of about +3 dB/sub. That is not doubling apparent SPL, but a +6dB kick is pretty solid and notable. But the power handling of these subs limits your options on the amp settings too. (A +9dB kick is 2x the apparent SPL you hear now)
To get there, cone area, excursion capability and a more efficient enclosure will definitely produce more bass SPL in your Camero. Most 15's are more efficient bass drivers over their 12" counterparts. This is often due to more cone area, larger X-max excursion and a more robust motor drive system.
If you used efficient dual 15's in a well designed ported/vented enclosure, They will probably be 4+4 DVC's, wired at 1 ohm net to your amp. The trade off is a larger box and new subs.
Tech Tips:
Sealed boxes are great for SQL system and the lower bass region rolls off at predictable rated, based on the sub design parameter. By the time a sub is below 60 Hz., their power output drops predictably and we lose deep bass SPL. (a 4-6 dB loss below about 60 Hz. is common, but still sounds pretty good due to cabin gain affects)
In ported designs, one can increase efficiencies below 60 Hz by several dB/octave. This efficiency is often coupled with cabin gain affects and we get more low bass dB's as well. If we have more usable watts to the sub(s) as well, (1200 vs 600) this will give us another +3dB of usable bass too. Those are the basics of garnering more SPL with the amp you now have.
The next level up would be a pair of stout pair of 12's or 15" woofers, highly efficient as compared to your present Eclipse subs and ported enclosure design.
Swez
cplkittle on 07/1/2007 13:41:45
Swez,
"+3 dB/sub. That is not doubling apparent SPL, but a +6dB kick is pretty solid and notable. But the power handling of these subs limits your options on the amp settings too. (A +9dB kick is 2x the apparent SPL you hear now)"
+9dB is 2x ?!? Where did this come from?
from wikipedia:
The conversion for decibels is often simplified to: "+3 dB means two times the power and 1.414 times the voltage", and "+6 dB means four times the power and two times the voltage ".
While this is accurate for many situations, it is not exact. As stated above, decibels are defined so that +10 dB means "ten times the power". From this, we calculate that +3 dB actually multiplies the power by 103/10. This is a power ratio of 1.9953 or about 0.25% different from the "times 2" power ratio that is sometimes assumed. A level difference of +6 dB is 3.9811, about 0.5% different from 4.
But then I found this chart:
Perceptions of Increases in Decibel Level
Imperceptible Change ................1dB
Barely Perceptible Change ........3dB
Clearly Noticeable Change .........5dB
About Twice as Loud ...............10dB
About Four Times as Loud .......20dB
So is this to say that a 3dB increase is mathematically and logically twice the volume, but the human ear perceives a 10dB increase as twice the volume?
swez on 07/1/2007 17:01:43
Kit, I researched this a long time back and don't recall the sources, but all said a +9.9dB change in apparent volume, (SPL) is to the human ear, 2 times as loud. This is regarding power in watts, not voltage.
"Perceptions of Increases in Decibel Level"
Imperceptible Change ................1dB
Barely Perceptible Change ........3dB (Yep)
Clearly Noticeable Change .........5dB
About Twice as Loud ...............10dB (Yep)
About Four Times as Loud .......20dB
This is a pretty accurate from memory and I think Bcae1 has a segment on same.
http://www.bcae1.com/decibel.htm
If we double the voltage, we get a +6dB increase. If we double the wattage, we get a +3dB increase. (Assuming the load is the same in both cases) Check out the link and there's a calculator at the end of the segment that compares voltage and wattage changes VS dB.
The human ear is not linear. It is however logrithmic. Hope that clarifies the matter? SMILE
Swez
Ender2 on 07/1/2007 18:59:25
So, what I've gathered so far is:
1.) Port my enclosure.
2.) Get some efficient 15's.
3.) Up my power from 300wRMS, to 600wRMS. (per channel)
Doing so could possibly net me how big of an SPL increase?
Also, as far as logical terms. It seems to me now that 2 of my subs now produce a certain ammount of SPL, so adding 2 more subs at the same wattage should double my spl, but that's not so; is there anyway this could be explained to me? And, basically, if you can just "up" the power of the subs and increase the size of the sub to 15, what would be the benefit of having 4 12's?
swez on 07/1/2007 21:20:39
The amp mentioned has more power than the subs can handle right? Yes, you can throw more power at them as the amp can supply more, but the subs cannot give more SPL due to excursion limits and power handling limits they have. More power will only serve to overheat the voice coils and can rip the susb apart in time physically speaking as well.
Also, the enclosure design is very good for SQL apps. You seem to be happy with how they sound, SQ wise, but want more SPL right? (Yes/No/other)
OK, more SPL comes from adequate power to each sub, (Got that now)a more efficient enclosure design, (needs work) and subs that can take the power this amp can deliver w/o overextending them to the point of failure. (These subs are pretty much maxed out now)
Adding more subs can increase cone area and move more air too. That's a good option if you have 4 subs and when wired properly, the amp gets a 1 ohm load. Adding 2 more of the same subs you have now will not work as the best you can get is a 2 ohm load. That won't help. The power ratings are good, but the ohmic load is not optimal for this amp. (1200 Wrms @ 1 ohm, 600 Wrms @ 2 ohms)
This means changing subs is the most cost effective and viable option. Using dual 15's will give an effective cone area of almost 3 x 12" subs. (That's not a bad idea) Using more efficient subs are also good as would a more efficient enclosure. The trick here, is pulling it all together so that all the variables work in your favor:
1. More cone area
2. Long throw voice coils (more excursion at 600 Wrms/sub)
3. A more efficient enclosure design (Often a larger ported/vented box)
4. More efficient subs
If you get all of these optimized, your SPL #'s will be easily +6dB higher in a ported box VS sealed. If the new subs are of larger cone area and have more excursion ability, they move more air too. That equates to a few more dB of SPL and now, you can throw 600 Wrms/sub and not be hindered by the limits of your present 12's in a sealed box.
Does this make sense to you?
Swez
Ender2 on 07/2/2007 12:53:47
Then let's decide on some nice 15's. And talk about ways I can port this system.
Also, just to sum up my intentions. I need to have the most SPL in my city, unquestionably. Is this the right practical approach without spending tons of money?
Also, could someone elaborate on the last wire of the big 3?
1) Battery negative to chassis
2) Alternator to battery positive
3) Chassis to engine
Just number 3 play. :)
Victor on 07/2/2007 14:06:06
most SPL in your city is something very subjective....
anyways... we need to aim for a number here SPL wise....
a total of 1000 wrms to 1200wrms going to 2 x 15" subs in a ported enclosure ...
ample sound damping and enuf electrical juice from the alt and battery will insure this.....
say anywhere in higher 140's to low 150's.....
a lot of 15"s out there that can do the job ...am kinda running outta time, will get back with a few suggestions....
how much do you wanna spend on these subs..?? consider sound damping and electrical upgrade as inevitable expenses if you are aiming at higher SPL....
Victor...
PS...: sad story http://www.adireaudio.com/ adire audio no more exists....
Victor on 07/3/2007 01:37:01
the Kicker solobaric S15L5 seems appropriate for such applications with SPL targeted bass.
2 of these will provide more surface area than most of the 15" out there, they got high sensitivity of 90.3 db @ 1w/m, 22mm xmax 1-way and handle 750wrms power each....available in dual 2 and dual 4 ohms version..
just one set back... these subs need huge enclosures...
http://www.kicker.com/06/tech-support/manuals/manuals/2006/2006%20L5%20Sub%20c01%20WEB.pdf
Victor...
Ender2 on 07/3/2007 05:21:17
Thanks for the suggestion, but a 6 foot box is simply out of the question. I will be lucky if I can manage 2 foot per sub (that's ported or sealed.) Unless I think of another way to make/have the enclosure. Is there anything high SPL, high excursion that operates in this type of volume?
kirchatndftbl on 07/3/2007 07:23:08
soundstream splx-152 could be a possibility
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=16593
Victor on 07/3/2007 08:13:35
those require a 3.5 cuft box for regular usage performance...thats a 7 cuft space for 2 subs.... a SPL enclosure would be around 5 cubes for each sub..
what is your budget for the subs...??? let us target the best sub in that budget and the one closest to our parameters...
Ender2 on 07/3/2007 13:20:43
Was hoping not to spend over $300 per sub; but if there's something that is well worth the money for a little extra, I can shell it out.
Victor on 07/3/2007 15:08:17
i noticed you mentioned a sub from TC Sounds on another post.. why dont u think over getting the 15" version of either the TC 9 or the TC2000 models....
they fall in the same price range and also look to be solid drivers capable of taking some good beating... never had any experience with them, but on the spec sheet they look pretty impressive...
Victor...
PS. can you take workable dimensions of your cars trunk... this will give us an idea about optimum enclosure space available and also guide us on that part while buying the subs..
swez on 07/3/2007 22:25:16
Frankly, a single high efficiency 15" sub that can handle 1000 Wrms in a ported box would be superior in SPL performance to what you have now.
The Soundstream SPLX-152 has this ability. It's very efficient, has 2+2 DVC coils that net a 1 ohm load and can handle 1000 Wrms in a medium size port/vented enclosure.
Here's the T/S specs and related for this sub:
http://www.soundstream.com/subwoofers-splx.htm
Note that SS rates this sub at 91dB SPL @ 2.83 volts/1m. That is very efficient for a mobile sound sub. Most can barely hit 85dB due to massive cones and motor systems. This is definitely a SPL sub that can deliver lots of bass. The trick is optimizing the enclosure size and port tuning to fit your hatch back car design.
To get a good read on the enclosure needs of this sub, contact Tech Support:
tech-support@soundstream.com
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 07/3/2007 22:40:34
Wow, a quad one ohm coil setup on the SPLX-154. thats some pretty crazy stuff there!
Ender2 on 07/4/2007 04:22:48
The current "Hatch" specifications aren't accessible at the moment since it's night time. But I estimate the volume of the entire space I have to work with around 3ft³. :(
swez on 07/4/2007 08:19:33
"We have a problem Houston"!!! (Apollo 13 Mission)
You can probably do this with some help from SoundStream Technical. Ask them the smallest box parameters they have tested this sub in and what the recommended tuning frequency target would be.
I would ask what they think of a ported box of say 1.85 ft^3 minus port dimensions and sub displacement for say 36-40 Hz. If using round ports instead of vented slots, the port area will be smaller. (4" dia port(s) would be a good bet.
This sub has a low Vas number. (2.31 ft^3) That indicates it is well suited to compact enclosures either sealed, ported or BP.
Try these dimensions and see if you can fit them into your hatch. The internal dimensions of the box specs below are for a 1.85 ft^3 ported box.
H = 18.0" (This may be problematic but adjustable)
W = 20.0"
D = 12.0"
Port: 4" dia., 11.6" long, tuned @ 36 Hz.
Can also use 2 x 4" dia ports, 5.8" length, 36 Hz.
Swez
Victor on 07/5/2007 15:51:26
dave:
18 x 20 x 12 ( internal dimensions ) = 4320 /1728 = 2.5 cuft.internal volume..
2.5 - 0.13 cuft sub displacement.. = 2.37 - port volume
how did u get the figure of 1.83 cuft...??????
anyways.. here are the dimensions I calculated as per the specs on the subs owners manual..
and i am sure these would fit properly in a hatchback...
H = 16.5
W = 24.5
D = 13.5
external dimensions.. use 3/4" MDF...
internal dimensions would be 15 x 23 x 12 = 2.4 cu ft
slot port dimensions : H = 7" , W = 2" , D = 10"
port volume : 0.081 cu ft.
port tuning freq : 34.5Hz.
sub displacement : 0.13 cu ft.
heres the owners manual for that soundstream sub
http://www.soundstream.com/manuals/2006/sbw/SPLX%20SUBWOOF.pdf
hope this helps...
Victor...
Ender2 on 07/5/2007 16:17:12
Such a box, 15x23x12, as 2.4cu ft would mean only one in my hatch, which may just suffice but probably won't push more SPL "all around" more than the 2 12"s, but instead just at the tuned frequency.
going to do some creative thinking later today and see if I can squeeze some more volume out of the back of the car. Will update tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestions again.
Victor on 07/5/2007 16:22:27
this sub in such a box with enuf power from the amp .. will anyday out perform your persent setup...
swez on 07/5/2007 19:10:31
Victor:
Thanks for that missing piece of the puzzle. Was looking for the 15" box recommendations, but did not find them. You did! CLAP
It look like the magic number is 3.0 ft^3 (Internal + ports and sub disp)
The numbers I used were external figure and used a program off 12 volt.com for calcs. It was just a "will this fit in the hatch" check is all. (Toe in the water idea)
Since this is a 15" sub we have been discussing, knowing the "H" limits will help determine the shape of the box as well as internal/external dimensions to use. If the height is limited to 16.0" max., a wedge design must be used so the sub fits the baffle panel.
If the "H" limit can be extended to 18", we can adjust the "W" and "D" dimensions to hit the recommended parameters we now know. (3.0 ft^3 internal) + port & sub disp. (Rectangular box)
Ender:
Your present subs are located at the rear for the hatch and firing forward right? What if you changed the location of the sub box to behind the rear seats and firing to the rear? Are you willing/able to do this method?
Swez
Ender2 on 07/7/2007 14:44:49
Presently, the subs are in the hatch, firing upward. As far as "behind" the rear seats, there is only where the amps reside, and where the subs are. Like this.
http://home.comcast.net/~kulingar/full.jpg
They always said a picture is worth a thousand words. :)
PS. How much amperage can a 8 gauge wire safely handle? Was considering doing the big 3 upgrade, but all I have is some 8 Gauge laying around and 4 gauge is pretty pricey by the foot.
PSS. I read the article posted in the FAQ about the Big 3 and understand how the Alternator to Positive Battery Wire as well as the Negative Battery to Chasis (ground) wire works.
The last one is from the Alternator Mount (block) to the ground, and I'm not sure what this does, or how exactly to pull it off, could you elaborate some please?
swez on 07/7/2007 16:10:12
A #8 gage line can handle between 40-50A's of current, depending on the length of wire used. A #4 is double that.
The Big 3 wiring line that is often use between the engine block and body/chassis/firewall is backup ground. It just insures the ALT and Engine block are also part of the main grounding system in a vehicle.
In many newer cars, this can be eliminated if there are metal stabilizer bars that bolt to the engine and then to the wheel wells. This provide the same function. (A grounding point from the ALT/block to the chassis)
FYI: The engine block is suspended on rubber mounts that keep the engine in place and dampen vibration too. (Motor mounts) To insure adequate grounding for the ALT, older cars often used a flat braided cable to ground the block to the fire wall.
The mounting brackes for the ALT are the ground path to the engine block. If you have a concern, the simplest way to do this, would be to attach a cable from a mounting bracket bolt and connect the other end to the chassis where the NEG Bat terminal is grounded.
Ahhh yes, that picture is so nice and the subs fit so well . It would so good if the 2 x 12 baffle panel could be removed and a 15" sub could be installed in the same enclosure and ported as well.
Do you recall the internal airspace of this enclosure? (It seems to me you had mentioned 1.2 - 1.4 ft^3 per chanmber at one point?) The optimum ported box is 3.0 ft^3, but still usable if you could get close to 2.5 ft^3 or a tad more. This sub is usable at 2.0 ft^3, but we lose some deep bass performance SPL below 45 Hz. It will still be very loud, but not go as low and loud below 45 Hz. (F3 point is ~46 Hz.)
That says we have lost ~3dB at 46 Hz and more as we go lower than 46 Hz. However, we cannot accurately predict the cabin gain effects here either. Cabin gain will yield about +10 dB more bass inside this type of vehicle. (Perhaps a bit more) But it is hard to tell how much this effect will come into play at frequencies below 40 Hz.
Basically, that is the main difference between pure SPL sub designs and SQL designs. SQL designs are made to go very low yet balanced. SPL designed subs are for raw SPL, but often peak SPL #'s are above 50 Hz. (Max SPL is at vehicle cabin resonance) That varies with the actual cabin area where the sub(s) is installed. In your case, the whole cabin is the key factor. (Lift back design and no sealed trunk)
Swez
Do you see any way a 15" sub could be intalled w/o removing the box you have now?
Ender2 on 07/8/2007 00:46:25
Indeed, I could cut out the "Middle board" that separates the two enclosures, but even then I'd have to measure the "top" board and recut it to hold a single 15" just in the center.
Your talk of frequencies being covered by this 15" with only 2.5ft³ internal volume scares me a little. I do want more SPL but I don't want to lose the same "Punch" I have now. Will I be having less punchiness, and just more SPL with the single 15" sub? Sorry to sound like a broken record, as I'm sure this is just common sense stuff for you, and it's even harder to answer the questions I'm about to ask without being here in person.
I need an analogy of how much of an SPL increase I will be recieving from this 15" over my present setup. And also just a basic run down of what I'll be "losing" to get this increase in SPL. :(
I understand if you don't want to re-invent the wheel :) So if there is some online reading that you could recomment to answer the second part of that question, I'd be all ears. :)
Thanks again guys, your advice and help is always appreciated!
kirchatndftbl on 07/8/2007 01:01:56
the 15in sub will be louder overall but if its in a box around 2-2.5cuft then the subs will not hit the lower bass notes under 45hz is what i think swez was trying to explain
thats what i got out of it
Victor on 07/8/2007 01:49:13
To put all this aside... let me just put a more sensible idea in your mind....
let it all be the same...
find better 12" subs that work in same enclosure.. and a powerful amplifier...
if you want crisp tight punch,, then let the sealed enclosure remain..
2 12" subs capable of handling more power... having a higher sensitivity rating and a higher Xmax should do it all...
dont worry about not being able to have a ported enclosure... i understand SPL requirements.. but one cant give up on Quality crisp sound as a trade off....
just a few db's less is more sensible to give up on. rather than just loads of bass overpowering rest of the freq band...
there is one thing that SPL geeks dont understand... ( forgive me if i hurt any of you out there )...
such a lot of bass creates a lot of modulation in rest of the freq band.... and what you hear is not what is actually recorded or meant to be re-produced....
balancing between the bass engine and rest of the system in terms of SPL is very important....
you are confusing yourself a lot lot..... this is unncessary.. it takes up a lot of your time and the boards too.. not to mean that we are not here to help you.. but there are a lot of experienced guys out here..
Even tho i know something about car audio, i could blindly put in any system any of these golds here suggest me and be sure of great performance..
when you go to the doc.. you dont suggest the kind of medicine.. you tell him your symptoms ,let him do all the diagonosis and prescribe the right meds...
I understand your concern since you expect a lot from your system.. trust me every other car audio enthusiast would.. but repeatedly confusing yourself and the people who guide you is not going to be good to the final outcome of your system..
plan it out right..
Set a goal, set up objectives, then scout for the right product that meet those objectives, consider the accessories and labour that would go into installing, learn a few tweaking tricks and just get it done right for yourself...
you wont loose the "Punch"....hehe... lets get into the boxing ring... GRIN
i really understand your concern.. but when questions like " will the 15" sub hit harder than the 12?" are asked... the only answer you will get on CK is " depends on whose throwing them at you"......
looking at that enclosure, I see major modifications required to see it work efficiently with a 15" driver ant to get it ported...
2 x 12" effective drivers can be great SQL performers in such conditions and not a lot of installing hassel too...
also... the kind of question asked... none on this forum or for that matter any other forum, or any other car audio techie would ever be able to give u the exact SPL figure before actually installing the system in your car and then measuring it..
cabin gain is such a phenomenon as previuosly stated by swez.. the same kind of system in two different cars can measure SPL with a difference of 10-15 db's or even more....
some cars eat bass.. and some enhance it like theres no end to it..
hatchbacks are usually known for having cabin gain effect on a higher side , and your is a small car too.. means a lot of sound pumped in to a small listening environment.. means higher SPL compared to other cars..
sound damping.. another very important aspect .. previously mentioned too.. every car audio enthusiast, even before thinking of installing a system should have their car sound damped. be it for SQ, SPL or SQL .. until and unless you dont have favourable and conditioned environment to play in , you just cant dump in any sound system...
look over it as you definitely wouldnt wanna loose on precious SPL numbers due to lack of sound damping...
lot of very good 12" subs out there.. i would suggest to sensibly go ahead with 2 x 12" from a reputed manufacturer..
look at the following while scouting for the right subs..
4 ohm DVCs ( since you would want to wire them at a total of 1 ohm load to get the max out of your DEI amp...
rms range : 600wrms to 800wrms per sub.
sensitivity : >87db 1w/m
xmax : >18mm one way linear
recommended sealed encl : < 1.5 cuft per sub
short list 3-5 subs from reputed manufacturers and pick on one..
wish you all the best.. hope you are able to decide on the equipment soon..
Victor...
Ender2 on 07/8/2007 02:23:28
Very well put, Victor, and you're right it's easy to get lost in this mess and get confused. So I'll tell you guys the symptoms, Doc and I think you've already given me the cure. :)
I need as much SPL as I can get without losing the SQ I have. In other words, I need SQ with the ability to crank up some good SPL when i want.
swez on 07/8/2007 12:56:24
Dr. Vic gave the perfect perscription to a vague, subjective and illusive ailment.
I would have to go along and stick to the basics he already outlined. This is why I invited you here to CK. (To get some objective feedback on a very subjective issue)
1. Use the present amp & box you have now
2. Find a pair of 12" subs that match the box and amp power available
3. Narrow the choices down to no more than 3 end choices
4. Roll the dice after you get some initial feedback from those you trust
What would that look like? (To quote Dr. Vic)
4 ohm DVC's (two 12" subs)
rms range : 600wrms to 800wrms per sub.
sensitivity : >87db 1w/m (A bit higher is OK too)
xmax : >18mm one way linear
recommended sealed encl : < 1.5 cuft per sub
Set a budget you can live with too. There are so many good subs out there to choose from. But it does take some digging to find the best fit for your specific needs. We'll help, but grant us a list based on your research efforts. Use Dr. Vic's presciption as a guide.
Happy hunting,
Swez
swez on 07/8/2007 13:26:13
One of our guys used a pair of TC-9's recently and another loved the results so much, they stole his gear.
The only part this sub is lacking is the higher sensitivity levels noted by Dr. Vic. Worth looking at though. (Almost 85dB SPL, 1w/1m) A very good fit for your sealed box system now and can take all the power your amp can deliver as well. This is a true SQL woofer in every sense.
http://www.tcsounds.com/tc9.htm
Swez
Victor on 07/8/2007 17:33:39
DADDY DAVE GRIN
swez on 07/8/2007 20:50:06
Oh brother... that grinning guy keeps popping up at the most inopportune times. "Put a sock over it... would you"!!!
Good call there Dr. Vic!!! K.I.S.S. (Keep it Simple Stu)
Doc Swez
Ender2 on 07/12/2007 13:27:07
I did the first 2/3rds of the big Three upgrade today :
Positive Battery to Positive Alternator
Negative Battery to Chasis
with an 8 gauge power power wire, but it seems like the Battery gauge is acting up more than before and with heavy bass notes it drops almost to the red. Going to pull out the Voltmeter and get some readings through what I installed, should be near 14 volts everywhere I believe.
But, basically, as long as all connections are just as secure as before the install; shouldn't there be NO WAY to have voltage depletion when installing the Big 3? Electricity will always follow the least resistant path; whether it be in the 8 gauge I installed or the Old Factory Wiring that's still intact?
Let me know what you think could be causing the problem. Will give voltage readings soon as I get them.
jamesp on 07/12/2007 14:09:16
Ender, what size wire do you have powering your amps. I looked thru this thread twice and missed it it if you have it listed anywhere. Do you have a full range amp as well as the Directed amp?
Your monoblock amp is fused at probably 90 amps and if you have a 4 channel in the mix at 60 or more if you dont have some serious wiring, your voltmeter may be trying to tell you something. With a stock alternator in your Camaro, and the big"3" upgrade using small # 8, unless you 2/0 power wire(ASSuming 2 amps) you are not going to have 14Vpresent at you bass amp. What guage is your main power and ground wires???
swez on 07/12/2007 14:15:05
Most guys do the Big 3 and leave the stock factory wires as is. The net effect is that we now have more conductive cable to share the load. (a pair of #8 cables is about equal to a #4 line)
It almost seems like now that the new wire was added, either the amp load is more pronounced then before and it shows up on your voltage gage or... you have a poor connection and have lost something in the process. Try removing the new ground wire that was added and see if your voltage gage returns to normal again. That #8 gage ground may not be sufficient for this setup. You may need to use a larger ground wire here.
Review the ALT/BAT package you have again please. Also, what is the main power line from BAT to D-block? (1/0 wire is recommended for these strong amps) Anything smaller will not do.
Can you take a few pics of your Big 3 and stock wiring runs and show how they are terminated?
Swez
Ender2 on 07/12/2007 14:26:06
Currently only a 4 gauge is running from the battery to the D-block in the hatch.
I believe this 4 gauge is all that is necessary currently seeing as the 4 channel amp is only pushing around 50wRMS per channel, and the Directed Audio Is only feeding each sub 300wRMS (of which there is only 1 sub currently.) Netting only a total of around 500wRMS at peak volume.
The voltage meter is registering around 14v (around meaning 14.09, 14.12.) Either way, it's always above 14v. I got readings from the new 8 gauge under the hood all the way to the positive power input terminals at both of the amplifiers all of which read above 14 volts.
As far as pictures I can't provide any right now unless I can borrow a digital camera.
I used good ring terminals that were crimped well for the +Bat +Alt, and a Good solid ring terminal for the Chasis terminal, the only "odd" or weak connection was the one AT the Negative Battery terminal. It was impossible (with the size of the battery lug screw) to fit any ring terminal into it, so I left a good 1" long strand of bare wire divided the wires in halve and lead half along the top of the connection and half around the bottom (I do imagine this is hard to imagine) but I am confident that this provided a very good connection, equally so as the ring terminals used.
I do have plenty of 8 gauge cable left and plenty of ring terminals. So if you think it'd be better to add another from the +Alt - +Bat and from -Batt - Chasis then let me know, it can be done.
jamesp on 07/12/2007 14:29:03
1995 Camaro 6 cyl usually have the 100/105 amp alt
the 350cid Z-28's have a pretty beefy 140 amp alt.
You COULD easily have voltage loss at high loads with the small alternator and undersized main wiring even after the big "3" even using 4 Ga for the upgrade.
Is the voltmeter drop something new or has it dropped considerably on deep, loud notes all along?
Ender2 on 07/12/2007 14:34:16
Haven't tested it during Long, loud notes (with the voltmeter). Suppose I could pull out some test tones and check it.
But, YES, it's ALWAYS dropped somewhat during long bass notes (from the dial in the dash for Battery voltage.) Which is what I was hoping to alieviate by performing the Big 3 in the first place.
swez on 07/12/2007 17:39:33
Alrighty then... I suggest planning ahead a little. That #4 wire you have now, would be most useful as part of your Big 3 wiring upgrade. If you Camero is like most GM cars, the Neg battery terminal has a feeder wire to a terminatio block on the fender wall. It's often short and not always easy to find. That block is a good place to tap for your engine block ground.
The feeder wire to your D-block should be #1/0 wire for these amps. A #4 to your Directed and if you can fit it, same to the 4 channel.
At idle the ALT will deliver a bit over 50% of its max power rating. The gage is telling us that upon deep bass hits, your electrical system is taking such a load, that the ALT is not keeping up. If it goes down, but comes back up, it's OK. It does give a good dash monitoring reference about the amount of power draw the sub amp pulls on bass hits and also shows the ALT is fighting back to its normal voltage range of 13.5 -14.0 volts after the bass spike passes. (The charging system is working, but may not be up to the whole task at idle speeds)
The other item is about the output capacity of your ALT. Do you know what the ALT specs are? (100/105A is most common for V-6 models Delco-Remy) As James noted, you may have a H.O. version here, but we don't know that just yet. Have a look at this:
http://replacement.car-stuff.com/parts/carstuff/wizard.jsp?year=1996&make=CV&model=CAMA--007&category=F&part=Alternator&returnurl=null&dp=true&showdc=true#top
Swez
Ender2 on 07/18/2007 01:11:15
Going to be getting a 140 amp alternator in a few weeks with luck, also a cold cranking beastly 720 amp (cold) cranking Optima battery, will also be running a fresh 1/0 gauge power line to the trunk and will be using th current 4 gauge to replace the current "Big 3" wiring upgrade. On to subs..
I think I'm just going to the the Kicker L7S12 barics. Rated at 750wRMS which is 150wRMS OVER what my sub can deliver (per channel, assuming I'm running two). Which I believe will take the punishment I like to inflict with the +5dB eq setting around 40hz. Swez always suggested to invest-grade quality which is why I've got CDT 6.5"s and a 1,200wRMS amp, now I just need some quality subs, what say you?
The recommended volume for a sealed subs can be met easily with my box between .88ft³ up to 2ft³ I believe. The only difficult part about this would be that I'll need to replace the top "board" of my current box with one that houses (2) 11.25x11.25 holes instead of the current circular holes.
My last concern is of rip-offs or non kicker look alikes. Crutchfield sells the Solo-Baric L7 S12 for $399 when I can find the same subwoofer on Ebay for nearly half the price, is this the genuine kicker sub, or an elaborate rip-off?
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Kicker-S12L7-12-Solo-Baric-Car-Audio-L7-SubWoofer_W0QQitemZ300130823359QQihZ020QQcategoryZ18803QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
trunkisloud on 07/18/2007 02:00:04
here are a few pics of my cousins trans am boxes......should be the same as the camaro. these 15s banged real nice in there....he sold the car so i scored the subs.
the 12" enclosure http://www.icixsound.com/vb/nationpicture.php?pid=224
the 15"s http://www.icixsound.com/vb/nationpicture.php?pid=935
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/nationpicture.php?pid=936
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/nationpicture.php?pid=470
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/nationpicture.php?pid=469
Ender2 on 07/18/2007 02:26:48
Looks good man.
SQLThump on 07/18/2007 04:58:52
Man Trunk, those ED subs look waaaaay sick in that box in that Bird. Look like they came out of the factory. Me and my lil' bro just stared at that pic for like 5 straight minutes.........
Great use of that somewhat hidden compartment for the inner airspace for the box. My pops had a 95 Z-28, and he always would pack that compartment full of Coors Extra Gold for the trip back to UT when we would go on vacation.
In either case, a very impressive enclosure.
trunkisloud on 07/18/2007 10:05:16
yea hes pretty good ...now if i can just get him started on my truck.....
jamesp on 07/18/2007 15:26:55
Ender, are the Kicker subs in the Ebay link that you posted dual 4 Ohm voice coils? I cant tell from the product description as the whole link would not open up for me on my work dial up connection.
Ender2 on 07/18/2007 16:20:29
indeed, there are 2 ohm and 4 ohm DVC's for the same price, but my question is if those are the actual official kicker subs or rip offs since they're almost half price.
(For simplicities sake, this is entirely relative to my bass engine, which I find to simply not be powerful enough SPL.)
2x Eclipse SW6200 12" subwoofers, each receiving 300w RMS power.
http://www.eclipse-web.com/sw6000/sw6200.html
Powered by a Directed Audio D2400 MONO block amplifier. This amp is a beast, capable of pushing 1,200 wRMS.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_4336_DEI+-+Directed+Audio+D2400.html
POSSIBILITIES :
1.) I was thinking of upgrading to new subwoofers, Soundstream has a nice subwoofer that is capable of handling 600w RMS. Netting a 3dB SPL increase, 2x the power nets 3dB SPL increase, correct?
2.) I was recently thinking of the possibility of buying 3, or possibly 4 subwoofers, thus increasing the bass engine by a factor of 2. The SPL would then be calculated by adding the SPL rating of each sub at max efficiency?
Questions and concerns about Possibility 2.
a.) Can I run 3, 4 Subwoofers with this amplifier?
b.) Which one will produce more SPL, 2 subwoofers at 600w RMS, or 4 subwoofers at 300wRMS?
c.) I drive a 1994 Camaro and I do understand that power hungry subs often require around 1ft³ enclosure volume sealed (i'd like to not go ported.) I am willing to design this box myself so that it fits into my vehicle and it top quality.
Thoughts?
Also open to other suggestions, maybe 2 15" s? Whatever produces more SPL. I neeeeeed the vibration. ;D
Replies (46)
cplkittle on 07/1/2007 07:52:13
"1.) I was thinking of upgrading to new subwoofers, Soundstream has a nice subwoofer that is capable of handling 600w RMS. Netting a 3dB SPL increase, 2x the power nets 3dB SPL increase, correct?"
Not a simple yes or no answer here.. The sub that can handle twice as much power is not necessarily twice as loud. Two main factors that will decide this are excursion and efficiency. If the excursion is the same, but the bigger sub is >5 dB less efficient, there is a good chance there will not be a noticeable difference.
The only case where 2x power = 2x volume is if you are using the same woofer and you give it twice as much power as you previously gave it. ( without exceeding the sub's limits )
"a.) Can I run 3, 4 Subwoofers with this amplifier?"
- you can run as many subs off of the same amplifier as you want as long as the ohm load of the speakers matches the ohm capability of the amplifier, and you are within the recommended power of each sub.
"b.) Which one will produce more SPL, 2 subwoofers at 600w RMS, or 4 subwoofers at 300wRMS?"
- Neither. You have doubled the surface area, but also cut the power in half. The output would be the same.
In your opening statement, you said you were looking for SPL and your current setup was simply not enough, but you mentioned later on that you didn't want to go ported.
You do realize that you can up to double the output of your system just by going from sealed to ported don't you?
swez on 07/1/2007 09:48:37
One thing that Eclipse does not state, are the efficiency levels of their subs. (XXdB SPL@ 1w/1m???) The power handling of these subs is a modest 350 Wrms/sub. This makes for a good SQL bass system when sealed, but not a power house SPL system as you now seem to crave.
As Kittle states, ported subs are more efficient at the port tuning frequency, (PTF) and a range near same of about +3 dB/sub. That is not doubling apparent SPL, but a +6dB kick is pretty solid and notable. But the power handling of these subs limits your options on the amp settings too. (A +9dB kick is 2x the apparent SPL you hear now)
To get there, cone area, excursion capability and a more efficient enclosure will definitely produce more bass SPL in your Camero. Most 15's are more efficient bass drivers over their 12" counterparts. This is often due to more cone area, larger X-max excursion and a more robust motor drive system.
If you used efficient dual 15's in a well designed ported/vented enclosure, They will probably be 4+4 DVC's, wired at 1 ohm net to your amp. The trade off is a larger box and new subs.
Tech Tips:
Sealed boxes are great for SQL system and the lower bass region rolls off at predictable rated, based on the sub design parameter. By the time a sub is below 60 Hz., their power output drops predictably and we lose deep bass SPL. (a 4-6 dB loss below about 60 Hz. is common, but still sounds pretty good due to cabin gain affects)
In ported designs, one can increase efficiencies below 60 Hz by several dB/octave. This efficiency is often coupled with cabin gain affects and we get more low bass dB's as well. If we have more usable watts to the sub(s) as well, (1200 vs 600) this will give us another +3dB of usable bass too. Those are the basics of garnering more SPL with the amp you now have.
The next level up would be a pair of stout pair of 12's or 15" woofers, highly efficient as compared to your present Eclipse subs and ported enclosure design.
Swez
cplkittle on 07/1/2007 13:41:45
Swez,
"+3 dB/sub. That is not doubling apparent SPL, but a +6dB kick is pretty solid and notable. But the power handling of these subs limits your options on the amp settings too. (A +9dB kick is 2x the apparent SPL you hear now)"
+9dB is 2x ?!? Where did this come from?
from wikipedia:
The conversion for decibels is often simplified to: "+3 dB means two times the power and 1.414 times the voltage", and "+6 dB means four times the power and two times the voltage ".
While this is accurate for many situations, it is not exact. As stated above, decibels are defined so that +10 dB means "ten times the power". From this, we calculate that +3 dB actually multiplies the power by 103/10. This is a power ratio of 1.9953 or about 0.25% different from the "times 2" power ratio that is sometimes assumed. A level difference of +6 dB is 3.9811, about 0.5% different from 4.
But then I found this chart:
Perceptions of Increases in Decibel Level
Imperceptible Change ................1dB
Barely Perceptible Change ........3dB
Clearly Noticeable Change .........5dB
About Twice as Loud ...............10dB
About Four Times as Loud .......20dB
So is this to say that a 3dB increase is mathematically and logically twice the volume, but the human ear perceives a 10dB increase as twice the volume?
swez on 07/1/2007 17:01:43
Kit, I researched this a long time back and don't recall the sources, but all said a +9.9dB change in apparent volume, (SPL) is to the human ear, 2 times as loud. This is regarding power in watts, not voltage.
"Perceptions of Increases in Decibel Level"
Imperceptible Change ................1dB
Barely Perceptible Change ........3dB (Yep)
Clearly Noticeable Change .........5dB
About Twice as Loud ...............10dB (Yep)
About Four Times as Loud .......20dB
This is a pretty accurate from memory and I think Bcae1 has a segment on same.
http://www.bcae1.com/decibel.htm
If we double the voltage, we get a +6dB increase. If we double the wattage, we get a +3dB increase. (Assuming the load is the same in both cases) Check out the link and there's a calculator at the end of the segment that compares voltage and wattage changes VS dB.
The human ear is not linear. It is however logrithmic. Hope that clarifies the matter? SMILE
Swez
Ender2 on 07/1/2007 18:59:25
So, what I've gathered so far is:
1.) Port my enclosure.
2.) Get some efficient 15's.
3.) Up my power from 300wRMS, to 600wRMS. (per channel)
Doing so could possibly net me how big of an SPL increase?
Also, as far as logical terms. It seems to me now that 2 of my subs now produce a certain ammount of SPL, so adding 2 more subs at the same wattage should double my spl, but that's not so; is there anyway this could be explained to me? And, basically, if you can just "up" the power of the subs and increase the size of the sub to 15, what would be the benefit of having 4 12's?
swez on 07/1/2007 21:20:39
The amp mentioned has more power than the subs can handle right? Yes, you can throw more power at them as the amp can supply more, but the subs cannot give more SPL due to excursion limits and power handling limits they have. More power will only serve to overheat the voice coils and can rip the susb apart in time physically speaking as well.
Also, the enclosure design is very good for SQL apps. You seem to be happy with how they sound, SQ wise, but want more SPL right? (Yes/No/other)
OK, more SPL comes from adequate power to each sub, (Got that now)a more efficient enclosure design, (needs work) and subs that can take the power this amp can deliver w/o overextending them to the point of failure. (These subs are pretty much maxed out now)
Adding more subs can increase cone area and move more air too. That's a good option if you have 4 subs and when wired properly, the amp gets a 1 ohm load. Adding 2 more of the same subs you have now will not work as the best you can get is a 2 ohm load. That won't help. The power ratings are good, but the ohmic load is not optimal for this amp. (1200 Wrms @ 1 ohm, 600 Wrms @ 2 ohms)
This means changing subs is the most cost effective and viable option. Using dual 15's will give an effective cone area of almost 3 x 12" subs. (That's not a bad idea) Using more efficient subs are also good as would a more efficient enclosure. The trick here, is pulling it all together so that all the variables work in your favor:
1. More cone area
2. Long throw voice coils (more excursion at 600 Wrms/sub)
3. A more efficient enclosure design (Often a larger ported/vented box)
4. More efficient subs
If you get all of these optimized, your SPL #'s will be easily +6dB higher in a ported box VS sealed. If the new subs are of larger cone area and have more excursion ability, they move more air too. That equates to a few more dB of SPL and now, you can throw 600 Wrms/sub and not be hindered by the limits of your present 12's in a sealed box.
Does this make sense to you?
Swez
Ender2 on 07/2/2007 12:53:47
Then let's decide on some nice 15's. And talk about ways I can port this system.
Also, just to sum up my intentions. I need to have the most SPL in my city, unquestionably. Is this the right practical approach without spending tons of money?
Also, could someone elaborate on the last wire of the big 3?
1) Battery negative to chassis
2) Alternator to battery positive
3) Chassis to engine
Just number 3 play. :)
Victor on 07/2/2007 14:06:06
most SPL in your city is something very subjective....
anyways... we need to aim for a number here SPL wise....
a total of 1000 wrms to 1200wrms going to 2 x 15" subs in a ported enclosure ...
ample sound damping and enuf electrical juice from the alt and battery will insure this.....
say anywhere in higher 140's to low 150's.....
a lot of 15"s out there that can do the job ...am kinda running outta time, will get back with a few suggestions....
how much do you wanna spend on these subs..?? consider sound damping and electrical upgrade as inevitable expenses if you are aiming at higher SPL....
Victor...
PS...: sad story http://www.adireaudio.com/ adire audio no more exists....
Victor on 07/3/2007 01:37:01
the Kicker solobaric S15L5 seems appropriate for such applications with SPL targeted bass.
2 of these will provide more surface area than most of the 15" out there, they got high sensitivity of 90.3 db @ 1w/m, 22mm xmax 1-way and handle 750wrms power each....available in dual 2 and dual 4 ohms version..
just one set back... these subs need huge enclosures...
http://www.kicker.com/06/tech-support/manuals/manuals/2006/2006%20L5%20Sub%20c01%20WEB.pdf
Victor...
Ender2 on 07/3/2007 05:21:17
Thanks for the suggestion, but a 6 foot box is simply out of the question. I will be lucky if I can manage 2 foot per sub (that's ported or sealed.) Unless I think of another way to make/have the enclosure. Is there anything high SPL, high excursion that operates in this type of volume?
kirchatndftbl on 07/3/2007 07:23:08
soundstream splx-152 could be a possibility
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=16593
Victor on 07/3/2007 08:13:35
those require a 3.5 cuft box for regular usage performance...thats a 7 cuft space for 2 subs.... a SPL enclosure would be around 5 cubes for each sub..
what is your budget for the subs...??? let us target the best sub in that budget and the one closest to our parameters...
Ender2 on 07/3/2007 13:20:43
Was hoping not to spend over $300 per sub; but if there's something that is well worth the money for a little extra, I can shell it out.
Victor on 07/3/2007 15:08:17
i noticed you mentioned a sub from TC Sounds on another post.. why dont u think over getting the 15" version of either the TC 9 or the TC2000 models....
they fall in the same price range and also look to be solid drivers capable of taking some good beating... never had any experience with them, but on the spec sheet they look pretty impressive...
Victor...
PS. can you take workable dimensions of your cars trunk... this will give us an idea about optimum enclosure space available and also guide us on that part while buying the subs..
swez on 07/3/2007 22:25:16
Frankly, a single high efficiency 15" sub that can handle 1000 Wrms in a ported box would be superior in SPL performance to what you have now.
The Soundstream SPLX-152 has this ability. It's very efficient, has 2+2 DVC coils that net a 1 ohm load and can handle 1000 Wrms in a medium size port/vented enclosure.
Here's the T/S specs and related for this sub:
http://www.soundstream.com/subwoofers-splx.htm
Note that SS rates this sub at 91dB SPL @ 2.83 volts/1m. That is very efficient for a mobile sound sub. Most can barely hit 85dB due to massive cones and motor systems. This is definitely a SPL sub that can deliver lots of bass. The trick is optimizing the enclosure size and port tuning to fit your hatch back car design.
To get a good read on the enclosure needs of this sub, contact Tech Support:
tech-support@soundstream.com
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 07/3/2007 22:40:34
Wow, a quad one ohm coil setup on the SPLX-154. thats some pretty crazy stuff there!
Ender2 on 07/4/2007 04:22:48
The current "Hatch" specifications aren't accessible at the moment since it's night time. But I estimate the volume of the entire space I have to work with around 3ft³. :(
swez on 07/4/2007 08:19:33
"We have a problem Houston"!!! (Apollo 13 Mission)
You can probably do this with some help from SoundStream Technical. Ask them the smallest box parameters they have tested this sub in and what the recommended tuning frequency target would be.
I would ask what they think of a ported box of say 1.85 ft^3 minus port dimensions and sub displacement for say 36-40 Hz. If using round ports instead of vented slots, the port area will be smaller. (4" dia port(s) would be a good bet.
This sub has a low Vas number. (2.31 ft^3) That indicates it is well suited to compact enclosures either sealed, ported or BP.
Try these dimensions and see if you can fit them into your hatch. The internal dimensions of the box specs below are for a 1.85 ft^3 ported box.
H = 18.0" (This may be problematic but adjustable)
W = 20.0"
D = 12.0"
Port: 4" dia., 11.6" long, tuned @ 36 Hz.
Can also use 2 x 4" dia ports, 5.8" length, 36 Hz.
Swez
Victor on 07/5/2007 15:51:26
dave:
18 x 20 x 12 ( internal dimensions ) = 4320 /1728 = 2.5 cuft.internal volume..
2.5 - 0.13 cuft sub displacement.. = 2.37 - port volume
how did u get the figure of 1.83 cuft...??????
anyways.. here are the dimensions I calculated as per the specs on the subs owners manual..
and i am sure these would fit properly in a hatchback...
H = 16.5
W = 24.5
D = 13.5
external dimensions.. use 3/4" MDF...
internal dimensions would be 15 x 23 x 12 = 2.4 cu ft
slot port dimensions : H = 7" , W = 2" , D = 10"
port volume : 0.081 cu ft.
port tuning freq : 34.5Hz.
sub displacement : 0.13 cu ft.
heres the owners manual for that soundstream sub
http://www.soundstream.com/manuals/2006/sbw/SPLX%20SUBWOOF.pdf
hope this helps...
Victor...
Ender2 on 07/5/2007 16:17:12
Such a box, 15x23x12, as 2.4cu ft would mean only one in my hatch, which may just suffice but probably won't push more SPL "all around" more than the 2 12"s, but instead just at the tuned frequency.
going to do some creative thinking later today and see if I can squeeze some more volume out of the back of the car. Will update tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestions again.
Victor on 07/5/2007 16:22:27
this sub in such a box with enuf power from the amp .. will anyday out perform your persent setup...
swez on 07/5/2007 19:10:31
Victor:
Thanks for that missing piece of the puzzle. Was looking for the 15" box recommendations, but did not find them. You did! CLAP
It look like the magic number is 3.0 ft^3 (Internal + ports and sub disp)
The numbers I used were external figure and used a program off 12 volt.com for calcs. It was just a "will this fit in the hatch" check is all. (Toe in the water idea)
Since this is a 15" sub we have been discussing, knowing the "H" limits will help determine the shape of the box as well as internal/external dimensions to use. If the height is limited to 16.0" max., a wedge design must be used so the sub fits the baffle panel.
If the "H" limit can be extended to 18", we can adjust the "W" and "D" dimensions to hit the recommended parameters we now know. (3.0 ft^3 internal) + port & sub disp. (Rectangular box)
Ender:
Your present subs are located at the rear for the hatch and firing forward right? What if you changed the location of the sub box to behind the rear seats and firing to the rear? Are you willing/able to do this method?
Swez
Ender2 on 07/7/2007 14:44:49
Presently, the subs are in the hatch, firing upward. As far as "behind" the rear seats, there is only where the amps reside, and where the subs are. Like this.
http://home.comcast.net/~kulingar/full.jpg
They always said a picture is worth a thousand words. :)
PS. How much amperage can a 8 gauge wire safely handle? Was considering doing the big 3 upgrade, but all I have is some 8 Gauge laying around and 4 gauge is pretty pricey by the foot.
PSS. I read the article posted in the FAQ about the Big 3 and understand how the Alternator to Positive Battery Wire as well as the Negative Battery to Chasis (ground) wire works.
The last one is from the Alternator Mount (block) to the ground, and I'm not sure what this does, or how exactly to pull it off, could you elaborate some please?
swez on 07/7/2007 16:10:12
A #8 gage line can handle between 40-50A's of current, depending on the length of wire used. A #4 is double that.
The Big 3 wiring line that is often use between the engine block and body/chassis/firewall is backup ground. It just insures the ALT and Engine block are also part of the main grounding system in a vehicle.
In many newer cars, this can be eliminated if there are metal stabilizer bars that bolt to the engine and then to the wheel wells. This provide the same function. (A grounding point from the ALT/block to the chassis)
FYI: The engine block is suspended on rubber mounts that keep the engine in place and dampen vibration too. (Motor mounts) To insure adequate grounding for the ALT, older cars often used a flat braided cable to ground the block to the fire wall.
The mounting brackes for the ALT are the ground path to the engine block. If you have a concern, the simplest way to do this, would be to attach a cable from a mounting bracket bolt and connect the other end to the chassis where the NEG Bat terminal is grounded.
Ahhh yes, that picture is so nice and the subs fit so well . It would so good if the 2 x 12 baffle panel could be removed and a 15" sub could be installed in the same enclosure and ported as well.
Do you recall the internal airspace of this enclosure? (It seems to me you had mentioned 1.2 - 1.4 ft^3 per chanmber at one point?) The optimum ported box is 3.0 ft^3, but still usable if you could get close to 2.5 ft^3 or a tad more. This sub is usable at 2.0 ft^3, but we lose some deep bass performance SPL below 45 Hz. It will still be very loud, but not go as low and loud below 45 Hz. (F3 point is ~46 Hz.)
That says we have lost ~3dB at 46 Hz and more as we go lower than 46 Hz. However, we cannot accurately predict the cabin gain effects here either. Cabin gain will yield about +10 dB more bass inside this type of vehicle. (Perhaps a bit more) But it is hard to tell how much this effect will come into play at frequencies below 40 Hz.
Basically, that is the main difference between pure SPL sub designs and SQL designs. SQL designs are made to go very low yet balanced. SPL designed subs are for raw SPL, but often peak SPL #'s are above 50 Hz. (Max SPL is at vehicle cabin resonance) That varies with the actual cabin area where the sub(s) is installed. In your case, the whole cabin is the key factor. (Lift back design and no sealed trunk)
Swez
Do you see any way a 15" sub could be intalled w/o removing the box you have now?
Ender2 on 07/8/2007 00:46:25
Indeed, I could cut out the "Middle board" that separates the two enclosures, but even then I'd have to measure the "top" board and recut it to hold a single 15" just in the center.
Your talk of frequencies being covered by this 15" with only 2.5ft³ internal volume scares me a little. I do want more SPL but I don't want to lose the same "Punch" I have now. Will I be having less punchiness, and just more SPL with the single 15" sub? Sorry to sound like a broken record, as I'm sure this is just common sense stuff for you, and it's even harder to answer the questions I'm about to ask without being here in person.
I need an analogy of how much of an SPL increase I will be recieving from this 15" over my present setup. And also just a basic run down of what I'll be "losing" to get this increase in SPL. :(
I understand if you don't want to re-invent the wheel :) So if there is some online reading that you could recomment to answer the second part of that question, I'd be all ears. :)
Thanks again guys, your advice and help is always appreciated!
kirchatndftbl on 07/8/2007 01:01:56
the 15in sub will be louder overall but if its in a box around 2-2.5cuft then the subs will not hit the lower bass notes under 45hz is what i think swez was trying to explain
thats what i got out of it
Victor on 07/8/2007 01:49:13
To put all this aside... let me just put a more sensible idea in your mind....
let it all be the same...
find better 12" subs that work in same enclosure.. and a powerful amplifier...
if you want crisp tight punch,, then let the sealed enclosure remain..
2 12" subs capable of handling more power... having a higher sensitivity rating and a higher Xmax should do it all...
dont worry about not being able to have a ported enclosure... i understand SPL requirements.. but one cant give up on Quality crisp sound as a trade off....
just a few db's less is more sensible to give up on. rather than just loads of bass overpowering rest of the freq band...
there is one thing that SPL geeks dont understand... ( forgive me if i hurt any of you out there )...
such a lot of bass creates a lot of modulation in rest of the freq band.... and what you hear is not what is actually recorded or meant to be re-produced....
balancing between the bass engine and rest of the system in terms of SPL is very important....
you are confusing yourself a lot lot..... this is unncessary.. it takes up a lot of your time and the boards too.. not to mean that we are not here to help you.. but there are a lot of experienced guys out here..
Even tho i know something about car audio, i could blindly put in any system any of these golds here suggest me and be sure of great performance..
when you go to the doc.. you dont suggest the kind of medicine.. you tell him your symptoms ,let him do all the diagonosis and prescribe the right meds...
I understand your concern since you expect a lot from your system.. trust me every other car audio enthusiast would.. but repeatedly confusing yourself and the people who guide you is not going to be good to the final outcome of your system..
plan it out right..
Set a goal, set up objectives, then scout for the right product that meet those objectives, consider the accessories and labour that would go into installing, learn a few tweaking tricks and just get it done right for yourself...
you wont loose the "Punch"....hehe... lets get into the boxing ring... GRIN
i really understand your concern.. but when questions like " will the 15" sub hit harder than the 12?" are asked... the only answer you will get on CK is " depends on whose throwing them at you"......
looking at that enclosure, I see major modifications required to see it work efficiently with a 15" driver ant to get it ported...
2 x 12" effective drivers can be great SQL performers in such conditions and not a lot of installing hassel too...
also... the kind of question asked... none on this forum or for that matter any other forum, or any other car audio techie would ever be able to give u the exact SPL figure before actually installing the system in your car and then measuring it..
cabin gain is such a phenomenon as previuosly stated by swez.. the same kind of system in two different cars can measure SPL with a difference of 10-15 db's or even more....
some cars eat bass.. and some enhance it like theres no end to it..
hatchbacks are usually known for having cabin gain effect on a higher side , and your is a small car too.. means a lot of sound pumped in to a small listening environment.. means higher SPL compared to other cars..
sound damping.. another very important aspect .. previously mentioned too.. every car audio enthusiast, even before thinking of installing a system should have their car sound damped. be it for SQ, SPL or SQL .. until and unless you dont have favourable and conditioned environment to play in , you just cant dump in any sound system...
look over it as you definitely wouldnt wanna loose on precious SPL numbers due to lack of sound damping...
lot of very good 12" subs out there.. i would suggest to sensibly go ahead with 2 x 12" from a reputed manufacturer..
look at the following while scouting for the right subs..
4 ohm DVCs ( since you would want to wire them at a total of 1 ohm load to get the max out of your DEI amp...
rms range : 600wrms to 800wrms per sub.
sensitivity : >87db 1w/m
xmax : >18mm one way linear
recommended sealed encl : < 1.5 cuft per sub
short list 3-5 subs from reputed manufacturers and pick on one..
wish you all the best.. hope you are able to decide on the equipment soon..
Victor...
Ender2 on 07/8/2007 02:23:28
Very well put, Victor, and you're right it's easy to get lost in this mess and get confused. So I'll tell you guys the symptoms, Doc and I think you've already given me the cure. :)
I need as much SPL as I can get without losing the SQ I have. In other words, I need SQ with the ability to crank up some good SPL when i want.
swez on 07/8/2007 12:56:24
Dr. Vic gave the perfect perscription to a vague, subjective and illusive ailment.
I would have to go along and stick to the basics he already outlined. This is why I invited you here to CK. (To get some objective feedback on a very subjective issue)
1. Use the present amp & box you have now
2. Find a pair of 12" subs that match the box and amp power available
3. Narrow the choices down to no more than 3 end choices
4. Roll the dice after you get some initial feedback from those you trust
What would that look like? (To quote Dr. Vic)
4 ohm DVC's (two 12" subs)
rms range : 600wrms to 800wrms per sub.
sensitivity : >87db 1w/m (A bit higher is OK too)
xmax : >18mm one way linear
recommended sealed encl : < 1.5 cuft per sub
Set a budget you can live with too. There are so many good subs out there to choose from. But it does take some digging to find the best fit for your specific needs. We'll help, but grant us a list based on your research efforts. Use Dr. Vic's presciption as a guide.
Happy hunting,
Swez
swez on 07/8/2007 13:26:13
One of our guys used a pair of TC-9's recently and another loved the results so much, they stole his gear.
The only part this sub is lacking is the higher sensitivity levels noted by Dr. Vic. Worth looking at though. (Almost 85dB SPL, 1w/1m) A very good fit for your sealed box system now and can take all the power your amp can deliver as well. This is a true SQL woofer in every sense.
http://www.tcsounds.com/tc9.htm
Swez
Victor on 07/8/2007 17:33:39
DADDY DAVE GRIN
swez on 07/8/2007 20:50:06
Oh brother... that grinning guy keeps popping up at the most inopportune times. "Put a sock over it... would you"!!!
Good call there Dr. Vic!!! K.I.S.S. (Keep it Simple Stu)
Doc Swez
Ender2 on 07/12/2007 13:27:07
I did the first 2/3rds of the big Three upgrade today :
Positive Battery to Positive Alternator
Negative Battery to Chasis
with an 8 gauge power power wire, but it seems like the Battery gauge is acting up more than before and with heavy bass notes it drops almost to the red. Going to pull out the Voltmeter and get some readings through what I installed, should be near 14 volts everywhere I believe.
But, basically, as long as all connections are just as secure as before the install; shouldn't there be NO WAY to have voltage depletion when installing the Big 3? Electricity will always follow the least resistant path; whether it be in the 8 gauge I installed or the Old Factory Wiring that's still intact?
Let me know what you think could be causing the problem. Will give voltage readings soon as I get them.
jamesp on 07/12/2007 14:09:16
Ender, what size wire do you have powering your amps. I looked thru this thread twice and missed it it if you have it listed anywhere. Do you have a full range amp as well as the Directed amp?
Your monoblock amp is fused at probably 90 amps and if you have a 4 channel in the mix at 60 or more if you dont have some serious wiring, your voltmeter may be trying to tell you something. With a stock alternator in your Camaro, and the big"3" upgrade using small # 8, unless you 2/0 power wire(ASSuming 2 amps) you are not going to have 14Vpresent at you bass amp. What guage is your main power and ground wires???
swez on 07/12/2007 14:15:05
Most guys do the Big 3 and leave the stock factory wires as is. The net effect is that we now have more conductive cable to share the load. (a pair of #8 cables is about equal to a #4 line)
It almost seems like now that the new wire was added, either the amp load is more pronounced then before and it shows up on your voltage gage or... you have a poor connection and have lost something in the process. Try removing the new ground wire that was added and see if your voltage gage returns to normal again. That #8 gage ground may not be sufficient for this setup. You may need to use a larger ground wire here.
Review the ALT/BAT package you have again please. Also, what is the main power line from BAT to D-block? (1/0 wire is recommended for these strong amps) Anything smaller will not do.
Can you take a few pics of your Big 3 and stock wiring runs and show how they are terminated?
Swez
Ender2 on 07/12/2007 14:26:06
Currently only a 4 gauge is running from the battery to the D-block in the hatch.
I believe this 4 gauge is all that is necessary currently seeing as the 4 channel amp is only pushing around 50wRMS per channel, and the Directed Audio Is only feeding each sub 300wRMS (of which there is only 1 sub currently.) Netting only a total of around 500wRMS at peak volume.
The voltage meter is registering around 14v (around meaning 14.09, 14.12.) Either way, it's always above 14v. I got readings from the new 8 gauge under the hood all the way to the positive power input terminals at both of the amplifiers all of which read above 14 volts.
As far as pictures I can't provide any right now unless I can borrow a digital camera.
I used good ring terminals that were crimped well for the +Bat +Alt, and a Good solid ring terminal for the Chasis terminal, the only "odd" or weak connection was the one AT the Negative Battery terminal. It was impossible (with the size of the battery lug screw) to fit any ring terminal into it, so I left a good 1" long strand of bare wire divided the wires in halve and lead half along the top of the connection and half around the bottom (I do imagine this is hard to imagine) but I am confident that this provided a very good connection, equally so as the ring terminals used.
I do have plenty of 8 gauge cable left and plenty of ring terminals. So if you think it'd be better to add another from the +Alt - +Bat and from -Batt - Chasis then let me know, it can be done.
jamesp on 07/12/2007 14:29:03
1995 Camaro 6 cyl usually have the 100/105 amp alt
the 350cid Z-28's have a pretty beefy 140 amp alt.
You COULD easily have voltage loss at high loads with the small alternator and undersized main wiring even after the big "3" even using 4 Ga for the upgrade.
Is the voltmeter drop something new or has it dropped considerably on deep, loud notes all along?
Ender2 on 07/12/2007 14:34:16
Haven't tested it during Long, loud notes (with the voltmeter). Suppose I could pull out some test tones and check it.
But, YES, it's ALWAYS dropped somewhat during long bass notes (from the dial in the dash for Battery voltage.) Which is what I was hoping to alieviate by performing the Big 3 in the first place.
swez on 07/12/2007 17:39:33
Alrighty then... I suggest planning ahead a little. That #4 wire you have now, would be most useful as part of your Big 3 wiring upgrade. If you Camero is like most GM cars, the Neg battery terminal has a feeder wire to a terminatio block on the fender wall. It's often short and not always easy to find. That block is a good place to tap for your engine block ground.
The feeder wire to your D-block should be #1/0 wire for these amps. A #4 to your Directed and if you can fit it, same to the 4 channel.
At idle the ALT will deliver a bit over 50% of its max power rating. The gage is telling us that upon deep bass hits, your electrical system is taking such a load, that the ALT is not keeping up. If it goes down, but comes back up, it's OK. It does give a good dash monitoring reference about the amount of power draw the sub amp pulls on bass hits and also shows the ALT is fighting back to its normal voltage range of 13.5 -14.0 volts after the bass spike passes. (The charging system is working, but may not be up to the whole task at idle speeds)
The other item is about the output capacity of your ALT. Do you know what the ALT specs are? (100/105A is most common for V-6 models Delco-Remy) As James noted, you may have a H.O. version here, but we don't know that just yet. Have a look at this:
http://replacement.car-stuff.com/parts/carstuff/wizard.jsp?year=1996&make=CV&model=CAMA--007&category=F&part=Alternator&returnurl=null&dp=true&showdc=true#top
Swez
Ender2 on 07/18/2007 01:11:15
Going to be getting a 140 amp alternator in a few weeks with luck, also a cold cranking beastly 720 amp (cold) cranking Optima battery, will also be running a fresh 1/0 gauge power line to the trunk and will be using th current 4 gauge to replace the current "Big 3" wiring upgrade. On to subs..
I think I'm just going to the the Kicker L7S12 barics. Rated at 750wRMS which is 150wRMS OVER what my sub can deliver (per channel, assuming I'm running two). Which I believe will take the punishment I like to inflict with the +5dB eq setting around 40hz. Swez always suggested to invest-grade quality which is why I've got CDT 6.5"s and a 1,200wRMS amp, now I just need some quality subs, what say you?
The recommended volume for a sealed subs can be met easily with my box between .88ft³ up to 2ft³ I believe. The only difficult part about this would be that I'll need to replace the top "board" of my current box with one that houses (2) 11.25x11.25 holes instead of the current circular holes.
My last concern is of rip-offs or non kicker look alikes. Crutchfield sells the Solo-Baric L7 S12 for $399 when I can find the same subwoofer on Ebay for nearly half the price, is this the genuine kicker sub, or an elaborate rip-off?
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Kicker-S12L7-12-Solo-Baric-Car-Audio-L7-SubWoofer_W0QQitemZ300130823359QQihZ020QQcategoryZ18803QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
trunkisloud on 07/18/2007 02:00:04
here are a few pics of my cousins trans am boxes......should be the same as the camaro. these 15s banged real nice in there....he sold the car so i scored the subs.
the 12" enclosure http://www.icixsound.com/vb/nationpicture.php?pid=224
the 15"s http://www.icixsound.com/vb/nationpicture.php?pid=935
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/nationpicture.php?pid=936
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/nationpicture.php?pid=470
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/nationpicture.php?pid=469
Ender2 on 07/18/2007 02:26:48
Looks good man.
SQLThump on 07/18/2007 04:58:52
Man Trunk, those ED subs look waaaaay sick in that box in that Bird. Look like they came out of the factory. Me and my lil' bro just stared at that pic for like 5 straight minutes.........
Great use of that somewhat hidden compartment for the inner airspace for the box. My pops had a 95 Z-28, and he always would pack that compartment full of Coors Extra Gold for the trip back to UT when we would go on vacation.
In either case, a very impressive enclosure.
trunkisloud on 07/18/2007 10:05:16
yea hes pretty good ...now if i can just get him started on my truck.....
jamesp on 07/18/2007 15:26:55
Ender, are the Kicker subs in the Ebay link that you posted dual 4 Ohm voice coils? I cant tell from the product description as the whole link would not open up for me on my work dial up connection.
Ender2 on 07/18/2007 16:20:29
indeed, there are 2 ohm and 4 ohm DVC's for the same price, but my question is if those are the actual official kicker subs or rip offs since they're almost half price.
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