so i have 4x6 kenwood coaxials in my truck....i want better sound from my mids n highs...but i dont wanna cut into my door panel for components....can 4x6 plate speakers with a 4" driver with a tweeter measure up to the task??? i have 4 spaces for these if i decide to use them....but i would like to know if they are worth trying
Replies (15)
swez on 06/23/2007 09:56:15
I feel for ya, but that format of speaker has its limits. In fact, a 4" midrange cone can only do so much. A stout speaker of this size may produce good SPL, but the frequency range is pretty limited by the cone size and excursion capabilities. (Even 150 Hz may be too low for a typical 4x6" plate, car audio speaker)
Here's one on the strongest 4" mids I can find: Morel MW-113
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-010&ctab=2#Tabs
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/297-010.pdf
Note the frequency response plot is very flat at 100 Hz and up. However, the SPL/eff is very low for this driver. (80dB SPL @ 1w/1m) This speaker has a 2-1/8" voice coil to handle 150 watts RMS, but the impedance is about 6 ohms nominal with a big spike at resonance. (Fs = 72 Hz and a whopping 25 ohms spike)
Also, look at the price tag per driver. ($80.00 a pop when ya buy 4)
To use this type of speaker, one would need to fabricate a plate and probably shave some metal to make it fit as well. (4 5/8" OD, 2 1/4" deep)
Here, a component type speaker arrangement makes a bit more sense. A 5 1/4" format would be a very good upgrade to the front stage and either hog out the factory mounting area or use kick panels for the woofer and mount the tweeters where it makes the most impact. Yes, this will be a big job too, but if you demand more, this is the most logical route to take.
I would not bother with the rear speakers just yet. If you can get the front stage up to snuff and want more rear fill later, custom enclosures for the rear stage would be better than using the factory locations. (If you have the space and intend to keep this truck for a few more years)
What amping power do you have available for your present speakers?
Swez
trunkisloud on 06/23/2007 14:00:28
i just bit the bullett and bought some 6.5 components...time to go to cuttin
swez on 06/23/2007 16:57:26
Good idea!
Swez
trunkisloud on 06/23/2007 17:57:26
yea i scored another set of fusion encounter series components.....i have a set in the hyundai...they sound good without an amp ..but the new ones will be amped in the truck....around 60w per side.
trunkisloud on 06/23/2007 18:02:04
i am also in the process of scoring another ed16kv2 for $100.....so ill have a total of $265 dollars in all my subs and components...i just need a nice amp to run these subs....then i can start on my blow thru.....do you think its possible to run a blow thru with a folded horn enclosure??? i just brainstormed this idea last night when i was trying to fall asleep......
swez on 06/23/2007 22:01:29
Good buys for sure TIL...
The folded horn idea is a good one for far field, long throw sub perfomance. (Very large rooms, outdoor Pro and indoor nightclub venues) This design is great for high SPL and lots of deep bass, a long way out from the box.
Am not so sure how good this would be in any vehicle though. It would depend on the throat design, size of the box and how one flared the front baffles. Besides, the box for a pair of 15" subs would be as large a refrigerator too. To give you an idea of the scale of such designs, have a look at this page:
http://www.decware.com/imperial.htm
Note the woman inside the horn enclosure... not so much her nice figure, but how big the box is for a single 15" sub. (Scale is huge on a folded horn)
This is more for artistic license and not intended as soft Porn... but you get the idea.
Here's a Pro version from Peavey Electronics that employs their "Black Widow" series 18" sub. Note how compact "this is not". (14.5 ft^3 externally)
http://www.planetdj.com/i--DJS-SUB
As you can see, this design is not a good choice for mobile audio rigs. Yes, they are very efficient with power, but have you ever listened to a poorly design folded horn bass enclosure up close?
FYI: I borrowed one for a gig as a bass player one time. It was a folded horn design from Acoustic Audio. It had very good SPL at the back of the gym we played in, but the on stage sound was terrible and very colored to a point I'd never use one again. (Back to the Ampeg SVT- 810e again... uses eight 10" woofers in a pretty large box that rocks)
http://www.basscentral.com/2003/ampeg.shtml
This system rocked well for the times. But the SVT Head was a whopping 85 lbs and I hated lugging that thing around. Today, I would just use a smaller stage amp/sub system and feed a bass signal back to the mixing board and used the main stage subs to fill a large room.
Back then, I had a bigger ego than my wallet premitted. But somehow, when you want the best, one saves a lot of pennies for a long time. It took 2 years of gigs and working a P/T job to pay for all that crap. To replace what I had then, the cost would be almost 10x what I paid back in the mid-70's for the same stuff. Wow, things sure have changed a lot in 30 years huh? NOT
Let's see:
Ampeg SVT Head: Retail: $2800.00 1975: $350.00
Ampeg SVT-810e: $1400.00 1975: $250.00
Rickenbacker 4001s Bass: $3200.00 1975: $400.00
Swez
trunkisloud on 06/23/2007 23:28:42
some expensive stuff there..my bud is in a band and he goes on to say how much money they spend on equip.......and yea the horn idea is out the window...my cuz pretty much said the same thing you said...the sq would be terrible for this application especially with 15"s..........so were thinkin a huge ported enclosure ..maybe 6-7 cft....not sure yet...need more research..but still the amp remains to be had...and definately an electrical upgrade...the alt gauge already leans hard when the bass hits..
swez on 06/24/2007 10:29:57
Good... folded horns do have their place and can be very effective bass monsters. But not for mobile electronics apps. In your case, a well designed ported box and a good blow through design will give excellent results if there is enough juice to power the amp(s) used.
Yes, being a musician can be a very expensive venture. Most guys spend way more on gear then they make on playing gigs. It's fine if this is just a hobby, but to make big money, one needs lots of talent, a good booking agent and enough paying gigs to pay the bills. Most cannot get to that level on a consistant bases, even with gifted talents. It's all about being well connected to those who have made it to the big leagues.
Swez
Victor on 06/25/2007 03:33:27
for mobile electronics... why not....
look at the Wicked one... it has worldwide fans who use it in car audio too...
http://www.decware.com/whornok.htm
tho this design works flexibly with 8" and 10" drivers... it may be possible to alter this for a 15" driver... but again with larger driver the enclosure is going to be a huge one..
if you want extreme performance from 8" or 10" drivers, then this is a very efficient horn loaded bandpass design...
Victor...
swez on 06/25/2007 13:34:17
Indeed and true enough Victor. However, he said a truck bed install sub w/ a blow through hole vent.
That would indeed give the advantages of a flair type horn & ported BP enclosure, but the fabrication is very complex too. Also, this type of enclosure works best in large spaces. (Big HT rooms where the longer bass waves have plenty of room to propagate) Yes, it can be scaled for mobile sound apps too.
Am not sure what a large scale, (Dual 15" sub) box of this design would sound like inside a capped truck bed??? Probably thunderous bass with the cap lifted, but confined to a given truck bed that is capped, this would be a very time consuming and difficult box to fabricate, even for an experienced enclosure maker.
Every try this design out yet Victor? Comments???
Swez
Victor on 06/25/2007 13:59:48
ya , a small scaled prototype from 2 x 6" MB drivers from my old sony system...
150wrms each.. 6 ohm drivers... 94db sensitivity 1w/mtr
powered by a JBL GTO 301.1 II , wired at 3ohms , a healthy 110wrms to each driver.
with 6db's of bass boost.
and it worked wonders in a hatchback.... though they were MB drivers they scaled a 131.6db @ 45Hz...
never tried it with a car audio driver though...
this design is very efficient to get very good bass response in terms of SPL and decent transients too... a bit of phase setting needed to be done due to the horn length.
if you want unexpected results in bass from smaller drivers then this is a very handy design..
I am sure this would sound very good if used with drivers whose Qts is anywhere between .4 to .7
to keep this one in a sizeable form, 8" s and 10" s make a perfect choice for the Wicked One in car audio...
Victor...
30Hertz on 06/25/2007 14:02:25
You can design the enclosure to have the pressure and sound waves enter the cabin through the hole in the back of the cab and the bed. I've seen folded horn designs before, their very impressive but very complicated.
It really comes down to how much time, effort, and room your willing to give up in your bed for a design such as this.
I've seen a truck that had (12) 12" RE XXX's in an enclosure that ran down the side of the bed on both sides with the large port opening at the back of the bed. On the top (between the enclosures and above the port) there was a huge 3/4" Plexi window that in essence sealed the whole bed creating just an extention of the cab so all soundwaves were forced into the cab, rather than keeping it open. Hope that makes sense.
trunkisloud on 06/25/2007 18:20:52
makes sense to me....but im rollin 2 elemental designs 16kv2....im thinkin the wicked one is outta the question..so a good size ported enclosure will be employed here....if im not satisfied then i will upgrade and add as needed (budget permitting)....also looking at the autotek 1400d to run the subs....what you guys think.?
trunkisloud on 07/17/2007 00:46:41
so i installed the components.....didnt turn out as clean as i wanted but they look decent...will have pics of my stuff tomorrow....
SQLThump on 07/18/2007 05:03:38
Excellent...............Bust out the pics..........
Replies (15)
swez on 06/23/2007 09:56:15
I feel for ya, but that format of speaker has its limits. In fact, a 4" midrange cone can only do so much. A stout speaker of this size may produce good SPL, but the frequency range is pretty limited by the cone size and excursion capabilities. (Even 150 Hz may be too low for a typical 4x6" plate, car audio speaker)
Here's one on the strongest 4" mids I can find: Morel MW-113
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-010&ctab=2#Tabs
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/297-010.pdf
Note the frequency response plot is very flat at 100 Hz and up. However, the SPL/eff is very low for this driver. (80dB SPL @ 1w/1m) This speaker has a 2-1/8" voice coil to handle 150 watts RMS, but the impedance is about 6 ohms nominal with a big spike at resonance. (Fs = 72 Hz and a whopping 25 ohms spike)
Also, look at the price tag per driver. ($80.00 a pop when ya buy 4)
To use this type of speaker, one would need to fabricate a plate and probably shave some metal to make it fit as well. (4 5/8" OD, 2 1/4" deep)
Here, a component type speaker arrangement makes a bit more sense. A 5 1/4" format would be a very good upgrade to the front stage and either hog out the factory mounting area or use kick panels for the woofer and mount the tweeters where it makes the most impact. Yes, this will be a big job too, but if you demand more, this is the most logical route to take.
I would not bother with the rear speakers just yet. If you can get the front stage up to snuff and want more rear fill later, custom enclosures for the rear stage would be better than using the factory locations. (If you have the space and intend to keep this truck for a few more years)
What amping power do you have available for your present speakers?
Swez
trunkisloud on 06/23/2007 14:00:28
i just bit the bullett and bought some 6.5 components...time to go to cuttin
swez on 06/23/2007 16:57:26
Good idea!
Swez
trunkisloud on 06/23/2007 17:57:26
yea i scored another set of fusion encounter series components.....i have a set in the hyundai...they sound good without an amp ..but the new ones will be amped in the truck....around 60w per side.
trunkisloud on 06/23/2007 18:02:04
i am also in the process of scoring another ed16kv2 for $100.....so ill have a total of $265 dollars in all my subs and components...i just need a nice amp to run these subs....then i can start on my blow thru.....do you think its possible to run a blow thru with a folded horn enclosure??? i just brainstormed this idea last night when i was trying to fall asleep......
swez on 06/23/2007 22:01:29
Good buys for sure TIL...
The folded horn idea is a good one for far field, long throw sub perfomance. (Very large rooms, outdoor Pro and indoor nightclub venues) This design is great for high SPL and lots of deep bass, a long way out from the box.
Am not so sure how good this would be in any vehicle though. It would depend on the throat design, size of the box and how one flared the front baffles. Besides, the box for a pair of 15" subs would be as large a refrigerator too. To give you an idea of the scale of such designs, have a look at this page:
http://www.decware.com/imperial.htm
Note the woman inside the horn enclosure... not so much her nice figure, but how big the box is for a single 15" sub. (Scale is huge on a folded horn)
This is more for artistic license and not intended as soft Porn... but you get the idea.
Here's a Pro version from Peavey Electronics that employs their "Black Widow" series 18" sub. Note how compact "this is not". (14.5 ft^3 externally)
http://www.planetdj.com/i--DJS-SUB
As you can see, this design is not a good choice for mobile audio rigs. Yes, they are very efficient with power, but have you ever listened to a poorly design folded horn bass enclosure up close?
FYI: I borrowed one for a gig as a bass player one time. It was a folded horn design from Acoustic Audio. It had very good SPL at the back of the gym we played in, but the on stage sound was terrible and very colored to a point I'd never use one again. (Back to the Ampeg SVT- 810e again... uses eight 10" woofers in a pretty large box that rocks)
http://www.basscentral.com/2003/ampeg.shtml
This system rocked well for the times. But the SVT Head was a whopping 85 lbs and I hated lugging that thing around. Today, I would just use a smaller stage amp/sub system and feed a bass signal back to the mixing board and used the main stage subs to fill a large room.
Back then, I had a bigger ego than my wallet premitted. But somehow, when you want the best, one saves a lot of pennies for a long time. It took 2 years of gigs and working a P/T job to pay for all that crap. To replace what I had then, the cost would be almost 10x what I paid back in the mid-70's for the same stuff. Wow, things sure have changed a lot in 30 years huh? NOT
Let's see:
Ampeg SVT Head: Retail: $2800.00 1975: $350.00
Ampeg SVT-810e: $1400.00 1975: $250.00
Rickenbacker 4001s Bass: $3200.00 1975: $400.00
Swez
trunkisloud on 06/23/2007 23:28:42
some expensive stuff there..my bud is in a band and he goes on to say how much money they spend on equip.......and yea the horn idea is out the window...my cuz pretty much said the same thing you said...the sq would be terrible for this application especially with 15"s..........so were thinkin a huge ported enclosure ..maybe 6-7 cft....not sure yet...need more research..but still the amp remains to be had...and definately an electrical upgrade...the alt gauge already leans hard when the bass hits..
swez on 06/24/2007 10:29:57
Good... folded horns do have their place and can be very effective bass monsters. But not for mobile electronics apps. In your case, a well designed ported box and a good blow through design will give excellent results if there is enough juice to power the amp(s) used.
Yes, being a musician can be a very expensive venture. Most guys spend way more on gear then they make on playing gigs. It's fine if this is just a hobby, but to make big money, one needs lots of talent, a good booking agent and enough paying gigs to pay the bills. Most cannot get to that level on a consistant bases, even with gifted talents. It's all about being well connected to those who have made it to the big leagues.
Swez
Victor on 06/25/2007 03:33:27
for mobile electronics... why not....
look at the Wicked one... it has worldwide fans who use it in car audio too...
http://www.decware.com/whornok.htm
tho this design works flexibly with 8" and 10" drivers... it may be possible to alter this for a 15" driver... but again with larger driver the enclosure is going to be a huge one..
if you want extreme performance from 8" or 10" drivers, then this is a very efficient horn loaded bandpass design...
Victor...
swez on 06/25/2007 13:34:17
Indeed and true enough Victor. However, he said a truck bed install sub w/ a blow through hole vent.
That would indeed give the advantages of a flair type horn & ported BP enclosure, but the fabrication is very complex too. Also, this type of enclosure works best in large spaces. (Big HT rooms where the longer bass waves have plenty of room to propagate) Yes, it can be scaled for mobile sound apps too.
Am not sure what a large scale, (Dual 15" sub) box of this design would sound like inside a capped truck bed??? Probably thunderous bass with the cap lifted, but confined to a given truck bed that is capped, this would be a very time consuming and difficult box to fabricate, even for an experienced enclosure maker.
Every try this design out yet Victor? Comments???
Swez
Victor on 06/25/2007 13:59:48
ya , a small scaled prototype from 2 x 6" MB drivers from my old sony system...
150wrms each.. 6 ohm drivers... 94db sensitivity 1w/mtr
powered by a JBL GTO 301.1 II , wired at 3ohms , a healthy 110wrms to each driver.
with 6db's of bass boost.
and it worked wonders in a hatchback.... though they were MB drivers they scaled a 131.6db @ 45Hz...
never tried it with a car audio driver though...
this design is very efficient to get very good bass response in terms of SPL and decent transients too... a bit of phase setting needed to be done due to the horn length.
if you want unexpected results in bass from smaller drivers then this is a very handy design..
I am sure this would sound very good if used with drivers whose Qts is anywhere between .4 to .7
to keep this one in a sizeable form, 8" s and 10" s make a perfect choice for the Wicked One in car audio...
Victor...
30Hertz on 06/25/2007 14:02:25
You can design the enclosure to have the pressure and sound waves enter the cabin through the hole in the back of the cab and the bed. I've seen folded horn designs before, their very impressive but very complicated.
It really comes down to how much time, effort, and room your willing to give up in your bed for a design such as this.
I've seen a truck that had (12) 12" RE XXX's in an enclosure that ran down the side of the bed on both sides with the large port opening at the back of the bed. On the top (between the enclosures and above the port) there was a huge 3/4" Plexi window that in essence sealed the whole bed creating just an extention of the cab so all soundwaves were forced into the cab, rather than keeping it open. Hope that makes sense.
trunkisloud on 06/25/2007 18:20:52
makes sense to me....but im rollin 2 elemental designs 16kv2....im thinkin the wicked one is outta the question..so a good size ported enclosure will be employed here....if im not satisfied then i will upgrade and add as needed (budget permitting)....also looking at the autotek 1400d to run the subs....what you guys think.?
trunkisloud on 07/17/2007 00:46:41
so i installed the components.....didnt turn out as clean as i wanted but they look decent...will have pics of my stuff tomorrow....
SQLThump on 07/18/2007 05:03:38
Excellent...............Bust out the pics..........
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