First let me apologize in advance for any redundant questions I may be asking.......
Ok, So I finally have gotten a new sub reciever for my house, and I am totally stoked to put it to work., however I have no respectable subs, and definitely want to carefully plan out my course of action before buying anything.
The Reciever is a Kenwood KR-5030, this thing is old school too. A 1978 model to be exact. Older than my step dad. It is rated at a modest 60X2RMS, which is confusing because it has 4 speaker outputs with functions to run speakers A (top outputs) and speakers B (bottom) and a A+B function to play all 4 speakers. So I have no clue on the real wattage.
Normally in the past I would take a "hook up every single speaker you possess" approach, possibly make an 'octupus cable' to bridge all 4 channels into a single one (still baffled by how that worked, because it did) hook up 8 speakers in parellal and it would pound like hell till I eventually blew the reciever. I killed one that I had for over a year by bumping into it........Now I am edumacated somewhat in art of doing things right, and want a solid plan before I connect a wire.
First some basic questions.
I have touched on this topic with Cplkittle and Swez in the past, and that is concerning the use of a DVC sub with stereo output going to it. The conclusion was nay, but we were discussing actual stereo imaging, and the input to the sub amp in this case would be mono. There is only one RCA plug from the 5.1 reciever to the sub reciever, But output would of course be stereo....
So the question is, would a 2 channel sub amp safely power a dvc sub with each coil hooked up to a different channel (L/R) when input is coming from a single plug, split with a y connector?
Swez....How the hell did they rate these things back in the day? I would really like to know what amount of clean power I am working with here so I can plan accordingly. I'm totally lost......It states at this website of the brochre with the correct model number and perfect match picture 60x2 at 8 ohms, but has four channels, and says it can take 4 ohm speakers.......and would wattage double at 4 ohms?
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/oldp46030-5030rx.gif
Either way, I am sure I can juice a good 120 watts out of it possibly 240, and that could be enough........
Ok, that being said, I am thinking of a couple ways of going about doing this to maximize output, effiiency and the deepest bass notes possible by this O.G. Kenwood. I really want deep bass, like in the low 30's. I am more than willing to sacrifice some upper range punch as my 5.1 can go low enough to cover some upper bass frequency if I use some good front speakers with it.
So .....Plan A
Seek the magic DVC car sub that would work well with this application, build it a nice box and let her rip if this is possible. Definitely want the biggest cone area possible, and definitely a lower end tuned sub and enclosure.......GRIN
Plan B.....
Find 2-4 decent 60 watt speakers, and hope for some possible low end bass and cone area......SMILE
Plan C
hit up all the pawnshops and thriftstores for cheap gear, then hit the liquor store. Drink a 6 pack while I make an 'octopus cable,' and acheive the absolute lowest ohmic load possible, forget knowledge and remember the phrase ignorance is bliss while my army of speakers put the amp under a slow but deadly seige set to a soundtrack of loud rap music...............THINK.
Alright, any pushes in the right direction?
Replies (11)
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/9/2007 11:57:59
Holy crap thats long........Hopefully thats bite sized chunks......
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/9/2007 22:46:20
Nobody.........?
trunkisloud on 06/10/2007 00:52:26
dang this thing is old school...ok i believe the a/b is to run speakers in different locations and you would be able to switch which speakers you want to play...example....you have 2 speakers in your living room on the "a" channel...then 2 speakers for outside listening on the "b" channel..im sure you can wire as many speakers as you want to this thing...just make sure you keep it in line with the right ohms...but then theres the issue of lack of power...to answer the ? about a sub amp....i think it will work...all your doing is feeding a signal to a source...from the sub amp is where you need to watch what you do....i am currently running a cerwin vega dvc 8" on my yamaha reciever.....it works great....the key is making sure you stay within ohms limit.....my reciever is rated at 4-8 ohms......so i ran my sub series to make 8 ohms......i know your dillema with the old school reciever because i have blown quite a few due to incorrect ohms..
swez on 06/10/2007 07:41:21
In most cases, the old school Hi-Fi had these features and put out what is rated at 8 ohm loads. The A/B and A+B speaker configuration mentioned allow for remote speakers to be used. (A/B config)
The A+B configuration often connects speakers in series internally to protect the amp from low ohmic loads. These old school amps do not take kindly to loads under 8 ohms.
Frankly, if this receiver has tape output busses, it would be good to use them to power a remote sub amp that can deliver the power at a given load you desire. Parts Express has a couple of plate style amps for such things. They can be mounted onto the sub enclosure and have their own power supply and amplifier circuits. Take a look at these options:
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?Webpage_ID=3&CAT_ID=43&ObjectGroup_ID=505
The Bash and Dayton series plate amps have been around for a while and offer a great alternative to remote powered subs or even full range + sub channels.
Swez
swez on 06/10/2007 07:52:04
LOL, I just googled this receiver and had one of them until about a year ago. I gave it to a friend as she had no music in her home office and wanted some tunes as she worked.
This receiver is pretty basic on features and moderately low power. (More like 30 Wrms/ch) It does have 2 tape out busses and really lame tone controls too. The loudness contour helps bring up the bass, but I used a 10 band EQ, (Via tape 1 busses) to correct the lack of tone control features on this one. Tape 2 output can be used to power another amp as well.
I used this one for years as a back up receiver in my garage. It was OK for low power, high efficiency speakers @ 8 ohms per channel. I never tried going lower than 8 ohms either. That's why it lasted some 20 years. I bought it at a garage sale for maybe $10.00.
To my knowledge, it's still working for my lady friend. She's not into high end Hi-Fi, so it worked out pretty well for her needs.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/10/2007 09:25:10
Wow, what a trip. It's not a bad little guy, and hearing it on upper range speakers, It can get up there pretty well. Nothing too much, nothing too little. I think I am going to wire up my 5.1 back up (she went a way for a while in pawnshop land), and hook 'er up to the sub out and see how it rolls with an old pair of 10's I got.
The old 10's are the bass drivers from some old towers I used, and I loaded them isobaricaly and threw them in the car one time for a short little project to alleiviate boredom
Looking for something low powered and efficient so as I don't anger the neibhors and family. With my brother always at the house, I really wont be able to play it too loud, so I am not too worried if I drop it to 4 ohms because it will probably never see high volumes anyway.
Trunk, are you running the voice coils in stereo? As in one speaker channel to one voice coil, not wired together??
I love old skool gear. I had an old Realistic reciever that screamed while playing 10+ speakers wired together with an 'octopus cable' to bridge all of the channels. A week before I smoked it the neibhor came over and asked me to turn it down because I was shaking the windows on her house. I still have the thing in hopes I can someday get it repaired. I was also the first stereo I ever bought. I had it for years. A victim of raw lack of knowledge.
My little brother gave me this as a gift, and I really want to use it because of that, and I really cant aford anything else. I am more than confident I can milk some satisfactory bass out of this considering I dont have a need for quaking stereo in the house, just some good low frequency sound. More of an Sq setup than anything.
swez on 06/10/2007 13:23:22
Never done biz w/ a pawn shop. How does that all work anyway?
Say one has a few old power tools on hand and wants some fast cash. The tool may be worth $10.00 at a garage sale, but all the hassles that go with this method are many. What would a pawn shop deal look like?
Swez
trunkisloud on 06/10/2007 17:13:42
my reciever has an output for a powered sub and a regular sub output rated at 110w......so i have it wired into the regular sub output at 8 0hms....
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/11/2007 03:56:35
I taa depends on what the tool Is worth, age, condition, ect. They gave me 30.00 for my reciever, and sold it back to me for a marked 45.00, but I got a 15-20% discount on it. It may be worth your while to go check it out. I had to pawn it to buy my 2 channel for the bucket, I definitely wasn't watching my old amp go.
Plus, sometimes pawnshops are great places to score some old classic audio gear at a great price. I got an Infinity Perfect 10" 10.1 in a custom built box for 40.00 a few years ago. I prefer old skool equipment to much of the newer gear out today. Especially when it comes to bass from home audio gear. The old stuff just holds up and kicks.
swez on 06/11/2007 10:40:54
OK, I get the general idea on pawn shops. They front cash for goods based on a given book value, (Something like Bluebook for cars) of the item based on age and condition. Then, they mark up the price for their profit margin and one has so many days to buy it back before the general public can buy it.
If the original owner buys it back, they pay a premium to get said item back. Looks like a pretty high premium too. (Over 50% in this case, minus any discounts) Wow... that is some usery fee structure dude.
If I did the number right, say we get $100.00 cash for a given item and then buy it back later, the buy back cost might be as high as $160.00.
Holy Hedgehogs Batman... that's a big hit and a huge profit for a short-term loan. (What? 30 days grace period?) These guys are the proverbial "Den of Thieves".
Guess I won't be doing biz under those terms. It would be sell only and take the cash and run.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/12/2007 04:12:21
Yeah, definitely don't pawn things unless absolutely neccassary. Still one of my favorite places for low budget gear.
Hooked up some old 8's in an old BP box I have just to play with the reciever a bit, and power really isnt a problem, but I definitely need to find some better speakers to put up to the task. It is one nicely made box, it is custom built for something, and it's almost worthing finding something to suit the box. *'s would be goos for the task at hand.
So what say you Swez? Any suggestions for a Nice low wattage pair of 8's or a DVC 12 or something? I have been looking around, but havent had much luck.
Ok, So I finally have gotten a new sub reciever for my house, and I am totally stoked to put it to work., however I have no respectable subs, and definitely want to carefully plan out my course of action before buying anything.
The Reciever is a Kenwood KR-5030, this thing is old school too. A 1978 model to be exact. Older than my step dad. It is rated at a modest 60X2RMS, which is confusing because it has 4 speaker outputs with functions to run speakers A (top outputs) and speakers B (bottom) and a A+B function to play all 4 speakers. So I have no clue on the real wattage.
Normally in the past I would take a "hook up every single speaker you possess" approach, possibly make an 'octupus cable' to bridge all 4 channels into a single one (still baffled by how that worked, because it did) hook up 8 speakers in parellal and it would pound like hell till I eventually blew the reciever. I killed one that I had for over a year by bumping into it........Now I am edumacated somewhat in art of doing things right, and want a solid plan before I connect a wire.
First some basic questions.
I have touched on this topic with Cplkittle and Swez in the past, and that is concerning the use of a DVC sub with stereo output going to it. The conclusion was nay, but we were discussing actual stereo imaging, and the input to the sub amp in this case would be mono. There is only one RCA plug from the 5.1 reciever to the sub reciever, But output would of course be stereo....
So the question is, would a 2 channel sub amp safely power a dvc sub with each coil hooked up to a different channel (L/R) when input is coming from a single plug, split with a y connector?
Swez....How the hell did they rate these things back in the day? I would really like to know what amount of clean power I am working with here so I can plan accordingly. I'm totally lost......It states at this website of the brochre with the correct model number and perfect match picture 60x2 at 8 ohms, but has four channels, and says it can take 4 ohm speakers.......and would wattage double at 4 ohms?
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/oldp46030-5030rx.gif
Either way, I am sure I can juice a good 120 watts out of it possibly 240, and that could be enough........
Ok, that being said, I am thinking of a couple ways of going about doing this to maximize output, effiiency and the deepest bass notes possible by this O.G. Kenwood. I really want deep bass, like in the low 30's. I am more than willing to sacrifice some upper range punch as my 5.1 can go low enough to cover some upper bass frequency if I use some good front speakers with it.
So .....Plan A
Seek the magic DVC car sub that would work well with this application, build it a nice box and let her rip if this is possible. Definitely want the biggest cone area possible, and definitely a lower end tuned sub and enclosure.......GRIN
Plan B.....
Find 2-4 decent 60 watt speakers, and hope for some possible low end bass and cone area......SMILE
Plan C
hit up all the pawnshops and thriftstores for cheap gear, then hit the liquor store. Drink a 6 pack while I make an 'octopus cable,' and acheive the absolute lowest ohmic load possible, forget knowledge and remember the phrase ignorance is bliss while my army of speakers put the amp under a slow but deadly seige set to a soundtrack of loud rap music...............THINK.
Alright, any pushes in the right direction?
Replies (11)
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/9/2007 11:57:59
Holy crap thats long........Hopefully thats bite sized chunks......
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/9/2007 22:46:20
Nobody.........?
trunkisloud on 06/10/2007 00:52:26
dang this thing is old school...ok i believe the a/b is to run speakers in different locations and you would be able to switch which speakers you want to play...example....you have 2 speakers in your living room on the "a" channel...then 2 speakers for outside listening on the "b" channel..im sure you can wire as many speakers as you want to this thing...just make sure you keep it in line with the right ohms...but then theres the issue of lack of power...to answer the ? about a sub amp....i think it will work...all your doing is feeding a signal to a source...from the sub amp is where you need to watch what you do....i am currently running a cerwin vega dvc 8" on my yamaha reciever.....it works great....the key is making sure you stay within ohms limit.....my reciever is rated at 4-8 ohms......so i ran my sub series to make 8 ohms......i know your dillema with the old school reciever because i have blown quite a few due to incorrect ohms..
swez on 06/10/2007 07:41:21
In most cases, the old school Hi-Fi had these features and put out what is rated at 8 ohm loads. The A/B and A+B speaker configuration mentioned allow for remote speakers to be used. (A/B config)
The A+B configuration often connects speakers in series internally to protect the amp from low ohmic loads. These old school amps do not take kindly to loads under 8 ohms.
Frankly, if this receiver has tape output busses, it would be good to use them to power a remote sub amp that can deliver the power at a given load you desire. Parts Express has a couple of plate style amps for such things. They can be mounted onto the sub enclosure and have their own power supply and amplifier circuits. Take a look at these options:
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?Webpage_ID=3&CAT_ID=43&ObjectGroup_ID=505
The Bash and Dayton series plate amps have been around for a while and offer a great alternative to remote powered subs or even full range + sub channels.
Swez
swez on 06/10/2007 07:52:04
LOL, I just googled this receiver and had one of them until about a year ago. I gave it to a friend as she had no music in her home office and wanted some tunes as she worked.
This receiver is pretty basic on features and moderately low power. (More like 30 Wrms/ch) It does have 2 tape out busses and really lame tone controls too. The loudness contour helps bring up the bass, but I used a 10 band EQ, (Via tape 1 busses) to correct the lack of tone control features on this one. Tape 2 output can be used to power another amp as well.
I used this one for years as a back up receiver in my garage. It was OK for low power, high efficiency speakers @ 8 ohms per channel. I never tried going lower than 8 ohms either. That's why it lasted some 20 years. I bought it at a garage sale for maybe $10.00.
To my knowledge, it's still working for my lady friend. She's not into high end Hi-Fi, so it worked out pretty well for her needs.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/10/2007 09:25:10
Wow, what a trip. It's not a bad little guy, and hearing it on upper range speakers, It can get up there pretty well. Nothing too much, nothing too little. I think I am going to wire up my 5.1 back up (she went a way for a while in pawnshop land), and hook 'er up to the sub out and see how it rolls with an old pair of 10's I got.
The old 10's are the bass drivers from some old towers I used, and I loaded them isobaricaly and threw them in the car one time for a short little project to alleiviate boredom
Looking for something low powered and efficient so as I don't anger the neibhors and family. With my brother always at the house, I really wont be able to play it too loud, so I am not too worried if I drop it to 4 ohms because it will probably never see high volumes anyway.
Trunk, are you running the voice coils in stereo? As in one speaker channel to one voice coil, not wired together??
I love old skool gear. I had an old Realistic reciever that screamed while playing 10+ speakers wired together with an 'octopus cable' to bridge all of the channels. A week before I smoked it the neibhor came over and asked me to turn it down because I was shaking the windows on her house. I still have the thing in hopes I can someday get it repaired. I was also the first stereo I ever bought. I had it for years. A victim of raw lack of knowledge.
My little brother gave me this as a gift, and I really want to use it because of that, and I really cant aford anything else. I am more than confident I can milk some satisfactory bass out of this considering I dont have a need for quaking stereo in the house, just some good low frequency sound. More of an Sq setup than anything.
swez on 06/10/2007 13:23:22
Never done biz w/ a pawn shop. How does that all work anyway?
Say one has a few old power tools on hand and wants some fast cash. The tool may be worth $10.00 at a garage sale, but all the hassles that go with this method are many. What would a pawn shop deal look like?
Swez
trunkisloud on 06/10/2007 17:13:42
my reciever has an output for a powered sub and a regular sub output rated at 110w......so i have it wired into the regular sub output at 8 0hms....
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/11/2007 03:56:35
I taa depends on what the tool Is worth, age, condition, ect. They gave me 30.00 for my reciever, and sold it back to me for a marked 45.00, but I got a 15-20% discount on it. It may be worth your while to go check it out. I had to pawn it to buy my 2 channel for the bucket, I definitely wasn't watching my old amp go.
Plus, sometimes pawnshops are great places to score some old classic audio gear at a great price. I got an Infinity Perfect 10" 10.1 in a custom built box for 40.00 a few years ago. I prefer old skool equipment to much of the newer gear out today. Especially when it comes to bass from home audio gear. The old stuff just holds up and kicks.
swez on 06/11/2007 10:40:54
OK, I get the general idea on pawn shops. They front cash for goods based on a given book value, (Something like Bluebook for cars) of the item based on age and condition. Then, they mark up the price for their profit margin and one has so many days to buy it back before the general public can buy it.
If the original owner buys it back, they pay a premium to get said item back. Looks like a pretty high premium too. (Over 50% in this case, minus any discounts) Wow... that is some usery fee structure dude.
If I did the number right, say we get $100.00 cash for a given item and then buy it back later, the buy back cost might be as high as $160.00.
Holy Hedgehogs Batman... that's a big hit and a huge profit for a short-term loan. (What? 30 days grace period?) These guys are the proverbial "Den of Thieves".
Guess I won't be doing biz under those terms. It would be sell only and take the cash and run.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/12/2007 04:12:21
Yeah, definitely don't pawn things unless absolutely neccassary. Still one of my favorite places for low budget gear.
Hooked up some old 8's in an old BP box I have just to play with the reciever a bit, and power really isnt a problem, but I definitely need to find some better speakers to put up to the task. It is one nicely made box, it is custom built for something, and it's almost worthing finding something to suit the box. *'s would be goos for the task at hand.
So what say you Swez? Any suggestions for a Nice low wattage pair of 8's or a DVC 12 or something? I have been looking around, but havent had much luck.
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