Read this:
http://www.lightav.com/rules.html
Replies (16)
trunkisloud on 06/7/2007 10:28:57
THINK
trunkisloud on 06/7/2007 10:35:54
this is a good site here...lots of info....that being said.. i would still rather buy a great product for a reasonable price instead of paying a retailer my whole paycheck for something i could get elsewhere for a fraction of the cost. doesnt matter to me if they are an authorized dealer ...if they have something and the price is right ....then why not buy it.?...
gearhead on 06/7/2007 17:30:16
Many of the manufacturers mentioned in that link abuse the VERO program on eBay.
If I buy a brand new amp (or any other item), whether from a retail store, wholesaler, individual, etc., it's MINE. I paid for it! If I want to turn around and sell it for $1, the manufacturer has absolutely no business interfering with my sale.
swez on 06/7/2007 18:29:37
In the real word, that's the way it should work GH. But when dealing with large companies and warranty issues, 2nd hand buyers do not have transfer rights on warranties. If something goes wrong, the new buyer usually has to contact the seller and the seller often has the burden or repairs and warranties.
Also. Mfg's want to keep the prices on their gear at reasonably high profit margins to their dealers and disty's. This is where price errosion hurts Authorized Dealers and Distribution channels. The middlemen are making a lot of profit, but we can get around the high prices when buying online or at e-bay.
This is a catch 22 scenario and if a buyer gets quality gear and uses it as designed, most won't need a warranty or can have repairs done out of pocket. (But not supported by the Mfg.)
Frankly, in our economy now, buy the best gear at the lowest prices we can find from reputable sellers. The rest is on the buyer's back to insure things are not abused.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/7/2007 18:46:14
I am a big supporter of the local car audio stotres, as I get deep discounts. After listening to some of these stories, I wouldn't really want to ever buy off the internet again.
The idea I really was weary of was claims of counterfeit/ poorly refurbished gear.
Need cheap gear? Make best freinds with a car audio salesman, or better yet a manager......
trunkisloud on 06/7/2007 18:52:39
hard for me to make friends with the retailers around here.....especially they dont have much knowledge to offer me....they just wanna push a sale on me assuming im just some kid who wants bang in the back but doesnt know anything about it...and a perfect example of retail rip offs--i bought a set of boston acoustic speakers at mobile one ....tried to return them still in the unopened box and they would not take them back....i found the same set online for 80 dollars less than retail...to me a warranty on speakers isnt that important.....if i damage a sub usually its because i did it....not because it was defective...but if i want to return the unused item because of price gouging then i should be able to do so.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/7/2007 19:16:56
I feel you there, but thats where you need to weed out the good salesman who knows their product like the back of his hand. This may be hard to find, but when it comes down to customer srevice, it helps a ton to have somebody who knows and loves their product. It may be hard but look around.
Not to say that a lot of salesman aren't vile moneytaking mofos, but again, you got to look for the guy that all the other salesman are going to with their questions.
Many big box stores offer over the counter replacement warranties. I personally sleep well at night knowing that if something happens to a componet purchased from that store, its as simple as swapping out some stuff and some quick labor I do in their parking lot
Also, I like to keep an eye on pawnshops for good deals at all times. Sometimes a good score can be had at very reasonable prices. I bought a 25 dollar Kicker sub, and it has a 6 month full replacement warranty. Dude even tells me to bring it back before the warranty period to get new gear even if it isn't damaged....
If I bring this sub back undamaged, it will go on their "damaged goods" shelf and sell for like 5-6 dollars. I will probably repurchase it an use it in the house after finding the replacement or straight getting my money back. Kind of like a rental................
One just needs to be a patient frugal and educated consumer to milk the price out of the dealers, but it can be done.
cplkittle on 06/7/2007 20:54:15
I think the biggest issue here is deception..
Online stores tell you that you get the manufacturer's warranty.. you don't.
trunkisloud on 06/7/2007 21:15:31
oh...well i see your point now cpl......word..
swez on 06/8/2007 01:33:04
After a short stint of working at a small chain store for mobile audio as a salesman, I understand both side of the equation.
1. Salesmen get paid based on what they sell.
2. Stores stay in business based on keeping reasonable profit margins on what is sold.
3. The customer has to be sharp enough to know the going market prices on the gear they buy and how to use it correctly.
Trust me, there is a lot of markup on some products and name brand Mfg's don't like it when a store whores the prices. If they get caught doing so, they can loose their rights to sell that brand.
Also, few brick and morter stores can compete on price with online sellers. The lack of overhead for online stores, allow them to offer very good prices. However, there are a number of bad sellers out there and knowing who to avoid is half the game.
In a nutshell, if one can find a good local shop that offers fair prices, stands behind their products and installs, it's worth a few extra bucks for that peace of mind. Unfortunately, this is a very competitive market and it's shrinking too. There are a lot of "hoes" out there in retail and online.
KNOW WHO WE ARE DEALING WITH AND BECOME A SAVVY CONSUMER!!!
Swez
gearhead on 06/8/2007 08:11:52
Probably one of the main reasons customers get "confused" is because of the way manufacturers themsrlves word their warratny policies.
"Rockford Fosgate does not authorize ANY dealer, distributor, wholesaler, representative, magazine, mail order, or other type of business to sell any Rockford Fosgate products over the internet."
Followed by:
"Our Authorized Internet Dealers are the only Rockford Fosgate dealers authorized to sell our products on the internet."
Plus the fact that RF itself sells online, direct.
How many other manufacturers have similar policies?
Read JL Audio's internet/online sales statement, then tell me whether they will, or won't, warranty items purchased online. Their wording is verrrry wishy-washy.
jamesp on 06/8/2007 16:39:14
The few internet Ebay stores that I have purchased items from were very straight up and aboveboard about which lines have a real mfg. warranty and which brands were warranted by the "store" only.
The Rockford Fosgate, Infinity and Alpine stuff I bought online all came with a 1 year warranty from the "store". The "stores" I bought from had all been in business long enough to check thier credentials and see from feedback if they did honor these warranties. Of course, there is no guaranty that these places will continue to operate under the same name in the future but since I dont make nearly as much money as I once did I felt that the risk taken for the up front cost savings as well as the ease of shopping online was worthwhile.
I have always tried to support locally owned businesses and fought the Wal=Mart mentality for many years but in the end I suppose I have succumbed to the pressure myself ( w/o actually going to wallyWorld GRIN) I did strike up a relationship with one of the ewo car audio shops left in town,,but I need to save money where possible like most of us and by shopping the internet well, I saved several hundred dollars. I recently bought a Sirius tuner for my Eclipse from Crutchfield for cheaper than most others offered them and got the Master Sheets for a car that I didnt have any luck learning how to take the dash or door panels apart., Thier superb service is worth real money to me...maybe not twice as much though. A company cant offer that kind of service and be authourized to sell every product listed and have the same prices as the gray market sellers...just cant do it even if the mfg's didnt limit thier ability to cut prices..and many times they do.
swez on 06/8/2007 19:24:05
Same here Jimmy, I too have a limited amount of "fun money" to spend on any given item these days and have to do a good deal of research before buying anything over $50.00. I am patient and know what I intend to buy and what the right price is for the quality level needed for a given widget.
Some of the things I desire are very expensive if I go to a retail store or online at say Bass Pro Shop, Cabela's or similar online/retail stores. Yes, I look for specials, closeouts and such when they come up and then pull the trigger if the price is right.
On the other hand, have done a lot of research on well known and lesser known brands that are indeed of high quality. Looking on e-bay, I can now find exactly what I want from reputable sellers, get full warranties and a price that is about 30% of retail.
I can shop from the comfort of my little office in the basement, research as much as I like and so far, every purchase made this way has gone 100% smooth and am very pleased with the quality, service and prices. (No wasting time and gas hunting the retail stores for me guys) It just shows up at my door in a few days and it's like Christmas each time an order comes in.
The sellers I deal with are not "gray market" sellers. They buy closeouts, get large lot discounts and one guy is now selling a few items he specified to the Mfg and they build to his specs and he sells them just above cost to get a feel for his cutomers interests. He's an older retired guy who has a real passion for fly fishing and only offers quality gear he would use. (Basically a full service outfitter)
Yes, he has some low budget, entry level offerings to those who are just starting out, but to the avid outdoor guys, he can meet their needs too. He is a bit unique as he has solid ties to the Mfg's that he buys from and they support his business needs as he sells for them. In every respect, it's a win-win deal for all.
There is only one middleman in this game. (The seller) His margins are good enough to cover expenses and a reasonable profit. He serve his customers with excellence too. It does not get any better than that for those of us who demand high quality stuff at well below retail pricing structures. How cool is that?
Swez
PS I too prefer to shop the local Mom & Pop stores for most things. Yes, I will go to Wally's World for some thingstoo. But it's because they have such a wide range of items and why make 5 trips to other places when I can get it all at one place? (Especially if the local stores don't have what I need in stock)
You know "Ain't Gots" right? Home Depot, Lowes and other big box stores where they ain't got what ya need, can't find what ya need or can't get someone to help find it.... NUTS to that nonsense!!! I just go local when I can and pay the extra 5%.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/8/2007 21:14:05
I love my local stores, but pretty much all of them have been run out of business by big box stores.
Speaking of bad places to go for gear, why the hell would someone go to Walmart for any stereo gear. I understand needind wires connectors ect, but walmart offers no over the counter warranty exchange, no install bay, and zero knowledge of product whatsoever.
Another interesting fact, Walmart branded Lightning Audio is now being sold out of Ultimate electronics like the stuff is worth a crap. Eeeeeeeewwwww Groooooossssss!!!!
swez on 06/8/2007 21:20:39
Lightning Audio is a subsidary of Rockford Fosgate. The upper priced parts of their line are not too bad, but the stuff we see at Wal-Mart is garage sale, bargin cave gear. This is especially true on car audio gear they carry.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/8/2007 22:46:54
It was all the same stuff. Fosgate is also one of my blacklisted brands, until you start getting up the price range to waaay expensive power seires. Was very impressed with the T1 though.
http://www.lightav.com/rules.html
Replies (16)
trunkisloud on 06/7/2007 10:28:57
THINK
trunkisloud on 06/7/2007 10:35:54
this is a good site here...lots of info....that being said.. i would still rather buy a great product for a reasonable price instead of paying a retailer my whole paycheck for something i could get elsewhere for a fraction of the cost. doesnt matter to me if they are an authorized dealer ...if they have something and the price is right ....then why not buy it.?...
gearhead on 06/7/2007 17:30:16
Many of the manufacturers mentioned in that link abuse the VERO program on eBay.
If I buy a brand new amp (or any other item), whether from a retail store, wholesaler, individual, etc., it's MINE. I paid for it! If I want to turn around and sell it for $1, the manufacturer has absolutely no business interfering with my sale.
swez on 06/7/2007 18:29:37
In the real word, that's the way it should work GH. But when dealing with large companies and warranty issues, 2nd hand buyers do not have transfer rights on warranties. If something goes wrong, the new buyer usually has to contact the seller and the seller often has the burden or repairs and warranties.
Also. Mfg's want to keep the prices on their gear at reasonably high profit margins to their dealers and disty's. This is where price errosion hurts Authorized Dealers and Distribution channels. The middlemen are making a lot of profit, but we can get around the high prices when buying online or at e-bay.
This is a catch 22 scenario and if a buyer gets quality gear and uses it as designed, most won't need a warranty or can have repairs done out of pocket. (But not supported by the Mfg.)
Frankly, in our economy now, buy the best gear at the lowest prices we can find from reputable sellers. The rest is on the buyer's back to insure things are not abused.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/7/2007 18:46:14
I am a big supporter of the local car audio stotres, as I get deep discounts. After listening to some of these stories, I wouldn't really want to ever buy off the internet again.
The idea I really was weary of was claims of counterfeit/ poorly refurbished gear.
Need cheap gear? Make best freinds with a car audio salesman, or better yet a manager......
trunkisloud on 06/7/2007 18:52:39
hard for me to make friends with the retailers around here.....especially they dont have much knowledge to offer me....they just wanna push a sale on me assuming im just some kid who wants bang in the back but doesnt know anything about it...and a perfect example of retail rip offs--i bought a set of boston acoustic speakers at mobile one ....tried to return them still in the unopened box and they would not take them back....i found the same set online for 80 dollars less than retail...to me a warranty on speakers isnt that important.....if i damage a sub usually its because i did it....not because it was defective...but if i want to return the unused item because of price gouging then i should be able to do so.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/7/2007 19:16:56
I feel you there, but thats where you need to weed out the good salesman who knows their product like the back of his hand. This may be hard to find, but when it comes down to customer srevice, it helps a ton to have somebody who knows and loves their product. It may be hard but look around.
Not to say that a lot of salesman aren't vile moneytaking mofos, but again, you got to look for the guy that all the other salesman are going to with their questions.
Many big box stores offer over the counter replacement warranties. I personally sleep well at night knowing that if something happens to a componet purchased from that store, its as simple as swapping out some stuff and some quick labor I do in their parking lot
Also, I like to keep an eye on pawnshops for good deals at all times. Sometimes a good score can be had at very reasonable prices. I bought a 25 dollar Kicker sub, and it has a 6 month full replacement warranty. Dude even tells me to bring it back before the warranty period to get new gear even if it isn't damaged....
If I bring this sub back undamaged, it will go on their "damaged goods" shelf and sell for like 5-6 dollars. I will probably repurchase it an use it in the house after finding the replacement or straight getting my money back. Kind of like a rental................
One just needs to be a patient frugal and educated consumer to milk the price out of the dealers, but it can be done.
cplkittle on 06/7/2007 20:54:15
I think the biggest issue here is deception..
Online stores tell you that you get the manufacturer's warranty.. you don't.
trunkisloud on 06/7/2007 21:15:31
oh...well i see your point now cpl......word..
swez on 06/8/2007 01:33:04
After a short stint of working at a small chain store for mobile audio as a salesman, I understand both side of the equation.
1. Salesmen get paid based on what they sell.
2. Stores stay in business based on keeping reasonable profit margins on what is sold.
3. The customer has to be sharp enough to know the going market prices on the gear they buy and how to use it correctly.
Trust me, there is a lot of markup on some products and name brand Mfg's don't like it when a store whores the prices. If they get caught doing so, they can loose their rights to sell that brand.
Also, few brick and morter stores can compete on price with online sellers. The lack of overhead for online stores, allow them to offer very good prices. However, there are a number of bad sellers out there and knowing who to avoid is half the game.
In a nutshell, if one can find a good local shop that offers fair prices, stands behind their products and installs, it's worth a few extra bucks for that peace of mind. Unfortunately, this is a very competitive market and it's shrinking too. There are a lot of "hoes" out there in retail and online.
KNOW WHO WE ARE DEALING WITH AND BECOME A SAVVY CONSUMER!!!
Swez
gearhead on 06/8/2007 08:11:52
Probably one of the main reasons customers get "confused" is because of the way manufacturers themsrlves word their warratny policies.
"Rockford Fosgate does not authorize ANY dealer, distributor, wholesaler, representative, magazine, mail order, or other type of business to sell any Rockford Fosgate products over the internet."
Followed by:
"Our Authorized Internet Dealers are the only Rockford Fosgate dealers authorized to sell our products on the internet."
Plus the fact that RF itself sells online, direct.
How many other manufacturers have similar policies?
Read JL Audio's internet/online sales statement, then tell me whether they will, or won't, warranty items purchased online. Their wording is verrrry wishy-washy.
jamesp on 06/8/2007 16:39:14
The few internet Ebay stores that I have purchased items from were very straight up and aboveboard about which lines have a real mfg. warranty and which brands were warranted by the "store" only.
The Rockford Fosgate, Infinity and Alpine stuff I bought online all came with a 1 year warranty from the "store". The "stores" I bought from had all been in business long enough to check thier credentials and see from feedback if they did honor these warranties. Of course, there is no guaranty that these places will continue to operate under the same name in the future but since I dont make nearly as much money as I once did I felt that the risk taken for the up front cost savings as well as the ease of shopping online was worthwhile.
I have always tried to support locally owned businesses and fought the Wal=Mart mentality for many years but in the end I suppose I have succumbed to the pressure myself ( w/o actually going to wallyWorld GRIN) I did strike up a relationship with one of the ewo car audio shops left in town,,but I need to save money where possible like most of us and by shopping the internet well, I saved several hundred dollars. I recently bought a Sirius tuner for my Eclipse from Crutchfield for cheaper than most others offered them and got the Master Sheets for a car that I didnt have any luck learning how to take the dash or door panels apart., Thier superb service is worth real money to me...maybe not twice as much though. A company cant offer that kind of service and be authourized to sell every product listed and have the same prices as the gray market sellers...just cant do it even if the mfg's didnt limit thier ability to cut prices..and many times they do.
swez on 06/8/2007 19:24:05
Same here Jimmy, I too have a limited amount of "fun money" to spend on any given item these days and have to do a good deal of research before buying anything over $50.00. I am patient and know what I intend to buy and what the right price is for the quality level needed for a given widget.
Some of the things I desire are very expensive if I go to a retail store or online at say Bass Pro Shop, Cabela's or similar online/retail stores. Yes, I look for specials, closeouts and such when they come up and then pull the trigger if the price is right.
On the other hand, have done a lot of research on well known and lesser known brands that are indeed of high quality. Looking on e-bay, I can now find exactly what I want from reputable sellers, get full warranties and a price that is about 30% of retail.
I can shop from the comfort of my little office in the basement, research as much as I like and so far, every purchase made this way has gone 100% smooth and am very pleased with the quality, service and prices. (No wasting time and gas hunting the retail stores for me guys) It just shows up at my door in a few days and it's like Christmas each time an order comes in.
The sellers I deal with are not "gray market" sellers. They buy closeouts, get large lot discounts and one guy is now selling a few items he specified to the Mfg and they build to his specs and he sells them just above cost to get a feel for his cutomers interests. He's an older retired guy who has a real passion for fly fishing and only offers quality gear he would use. (Basically a full service outfitter)
Yes, he has some low budget, entry level offerings to those who are just starting out, but to the avid outdoor guys, he can meet their needs too. He is a bit unique as he has solid ties to the Mfg's that he buys from and they support his business needs as he sells for them. In every respect, it's a win-win deal for all.
There is only one middleman in this game. (The seller) His margins are good enough to cover expenses and a reasonable profit. He serve his customers with excellence too. It does not get any better than that for those of us who demand high quality stuff at well below retail pricing structures. How cool is that?
Swez
PS I too prefer to shop the local Mom & Pop stores for most things. Yes, I will go to Wally's World for some thingstoo. But it's because they have such a wide range of items and why make 5 trips to other places when I can get it all at one place? (Especially if the local stores don't have what I need in stock)
You know "Ain't Gots" right? Home Depot, Lowes and other big box stores where they ain't got what ya need, can't find what ya need or can't get someone to help find it.... NUTS to that nonsense!!! I just go local when I can and pay the extra 5%.
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/8/2007 21:14:05
I love my local stores, but pretty much all of them have been run out of business by big box stores.
Speaking of bad places to go for gear, why the hell would someone go to Walmart for any stereo gear. I understand needind wires connectors ect, but walmart offers no over the counter warranty exchange, no install bay, and zero knowledge of product whatsoever.
Another interesting fact, Walmart branded Lightning Audio is now being sold out of Ultimate electronics like the stuff is worth a crap. Eeeeeeeewwwww Groooooossssss!!!!
swez on 06/8/2007 21:20:39
Lightning Audio is a subsidary of Rockford Fosgate. The upper priced parts of their line are not too bad, but the stuff we see at Wal-Mart is garage sale, bargin cave gear. This is especially true on car audio gear they carry.
Swez
ShootuhMcBustaCap on 06/8/2007 22:46:54
It was all the same stuff. Fosgate is also one of my blacklisted brands, until you start getting up the price range to waaay expensive power seires. Was very impressed with the T1 though.
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