Just wanted to say hello to everyone, especially Swez which I actually used to get alot of information from from another audio forum.
Also, I'm currently running a Directed Audio D2400 amp, and I'm looking to purchase some competition 12"s, two to be precise. This amp is a beast rated at 1,200w RMS @ 1 ohm, and I need something high quality that can handle this kind of power. My Eclipse SW6200's just weren't hacking at pushing a mere 300w per sub, I'm getting ready to send my second one back to the factory. Thanks in advance.
Ender
Replies (20)
swez on 06/2/2007 08:19:07
Welcome to CK Ender... it's about time you took the invite and came here to get some solid support from a great team of very talented guys.
OK, if I recall things right, you have a custom sealed box in the rear of this Camero. Knowing the internal airspace of this enclosure and the depth limits of your enclosure will help us guide you to a better setup in the next phase of your project. Knowing those limitations will help us point you to a new set of options and some strong subs that will meet the power needs of the amp you actually have here.
If memory servers me right, these amp are very strong at 2 ohm. (The 2400D is a monster) Have a look at this link and pull up the manual for the amp model you now have.
http://www.directedxtreme.com/support/owners.asp
I see a DA 2400 2 channel manual and the DA 2400D MONO sub amp. They are two vey different amps. Which one do you have now? Knowing this information is important as these amps are drastically different in power output, performance and power ratings. Neither of these amps are 1 ohm stable.
In short, before we can really help you, we need to know which amp you actually have. (Be very clear on the fact these models are very different and we need to know which one you actually have now)
Comments please,
Swez SMILE
Ender2 on 06/2/2007 13:10:42
I appreciate the concern Swez and yes you are accurate that it is a custom box. I can give an approximate mounting depth and Volume:
Depth : No less than 1.5'
Volume : Right around 2ft³
As far as which amplifier I have, you are perfectly correct in saying that I should definitely know which one I have. As far as the amp NOT being1 ohm stable, that is incorrect. The Actual amplifier I have is not either of these:
Directed Audio 2400D 2 Channel
Directed Audio 2400D Mono
But instead if you scroll futher down the page, or Hold Ctrl + F and type in D2400, you'll find my amp under the Directed Audio D1200, D2400 Owners Guide section.
Power Output: 400 Watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms and < 1% THD+N
Signal to Noise Ratio: -60 dBA (reference 1 Watt into 4 ohms)
Additional Power: 1200 Watts RMS x 1 at 1 ohm and < 1% THD+N
This amp will most certainly safely operate at 1 ohm, oh my I love the power.
I have grown quite tired of the quality of Craftsmanship from my current subwoofer(s) and furthermore rated at handling a mere 350w RMS or 1,000w peak means they just can't handle the kind of power I wish to drive to them, meaning it's time for a few new 12's, or I was also looking at the possibility of opening up the holes in the enclosure a little more and possible working with some 15's, I guess it all just depends on what you guys think is best. :)
Ender
Apprentice to Swez
Ender2 on 06/2/2007 14:47:35
3, 40 amp fuses, for a total of 120A.
Everyone asks this question when I say what the amp can do. :D
swez on 06/2/2007 16:06:27
Now we're getting somewhere. This is one well built amplifier sir!
http://www.directeddealers.com/manuals/og/directed_audio/G45105.110_06-05.pdf
OK, it can do 1 or 2 ohm loads per the specs and plenty of power at 1 ohm loads. (1200 watts RMS @ 1 ohm or 800 watts RMS @2 ohms) Pretty strong and likes a lot of current too huh?
OK, for a 1 ohm load, your subs need to be a pair of 4+4 DVC's, all coils wired in parallel. The sub power rating needed here is about 600 watts RMS per sub, give or take a few watts.
Power line for this amp should be 1/0 gage off the battery and and inline ANL 150-200A fuse system about 8-12" away from the battery. If this amp is coupled with another full range amp for your mids & highs, a solid D-block should be added that accepts 1/0 inputs and this amp can probably do OK with a very short length of #4 gage power and ground lines. (Under 3 feet each)
OK, we need to clarify the sealed chamber inner airspace for the subs. You said about 2 ft^3... is that per chamber or the aggregate for both subs?
Also, we will need to know the maximum mounting depth these chambers can handle regarding sub depth. If the subs use rear air vents, we need to allow adequate depth in the box to cool the subs. (If the air vent of a given sub is 1.5" dia, we must have 1.5" or more clearance behind the sub to the rear wall of the box)
Easy questions:
1. How deep are your Eclipse subs when measured from the lower lip to the bottom of the magnet structure?
2. How much clearance is there from the magnet to the back panel section of you box?
3. What is a rough price range per sub that you wish to pay?
OK Ender, the ball is back in your court, say more..
Swez
Ender2 on 06/2/2007 17:57:50
First of all, the enclosure is dual compartment, keeping the woofers totally separate, so for simplicities sake, we have have the Drivers Side Compartment, and Passenger side compartment.
Did a little math while determining Mounting depth for a few different things, I'll answer your questions before revealing the intel.
1.) The current subwoofers I use measure 6" from lower lip to the back of the sub (Magnet)
2.) Complicated answer. The subwoofers actually sit in at an angle and to make things worse the interior of the enclosure contains a slanted wall towards the top of the enclosure. Each compartment measures exactly 16" deep top to bottom, but from the angle of the slant of the woofers, and the slant of the interior, I'd say the Drivers side has a good solid 6" more to go before nearing the edge of it's compartment. The Passenger side is pretty close but I'd feel safer saying 5" for reasons explained in the latter section.
3.) I'm quite fed up with these eclipses breaking and I need something high quality; I'd say no less than $200-$300 per sub. $200 preferably, but if there's something spectacular for $100 more, just let me know, it's negotiable. Besides, they way I see it, even if I can only buy 1 subwoofer now, it'll damn near rival my two SW6200 pulling 300w RMS.
The fun stuff:
The enclosure volumes of the passenger side and driver side differ by .21ft³
Drivers Side sub enclosure : 1.46ft³
Passenger Side sub enclosure : 1.25ft³
Imagine if you will a big rectangular enclosure, and on the bottom right hand side of it, there's a large block of wood just sitting inside; this is what the passenger side enclosure looks like (for intents of describing why the volume is lower) while the driver's side enclosure does not have this cube.
Ironically enough, the same sub that messed up is the one that sat in the 1.46ft³ both times, which is much closer to the recommended sub enclosure of 1.50ft³ than other side which is still working fine.
swez on 06/2/2007 20:19:01
Excellent report... that's what I was looking for.
The lack of symmetry or a slight difference in chambers is part of the problem. That 1.46 ft^3 chamber would be the likely one to fail as the sub has more room to move w/o restrictions and hense, would fail at high power levels. Even if the sub is spec's at 1.5 ft^3, the one in the smaller chamber would have more air pressure to resist extreme cone excursions and that's why it did not fail. (Added back pressure helped it survive)
As for the depth issues at hand, it seems we can go up to 7.5 -8.0" in woofer depth and still be OK with mounting them and no problems here. Would you agree?
Tech tip: Many newer SQL 12" subs are designed for smaller, more compact sealed chambers, below 1.0 ft^3. This allows them to play tight and accurate bass with out excess boominess and flabby sounding lows. (poor definition at high SPL)
OK, a few more questions before we go on a full scale hunt for some new subs here.
1. Do you prefer SQ, (Very accurate bass) SQL (Accurate and clean but can play loud too) or SPL type bass? (Just plain loud and accuracy is not a big factor)
2. Do you see a way to modify the internal airspace of each chamber to reduce the inner airspace to a range more suitable to a given woofer spec? (1.0 - 1.25 ft^3 max)
This would not be polyfil as a filler in this case as it is too porous. It would need to be more rigid and have adequate density to reflect bass and not just absorb bass. But permit good tooling ability to shape and not add too much weight to volumn. (Something on the order of "Great Stuff" sealant/filler) But a tad more density.
A Bondo overcoat would be possible here as well. This stuff is very dense, can be tooled well in uncured state and shaped to some degree after cured as well.
Great Stuff expands a lot as it sets up and once cured, it's light in weight, but not so dense. A few top coats of fiberglass resin/hardener or bondo might do the trick after a full cure and shaping are done. Do you see what I am driving at? (A smaller pair of matched sealed enclosures within the custom enclosure you now have is what I am thinking about)
This is so hard to explain w/o pictures... words are so inadequate at times like this.
Comments?
Swez
PS Ash, 30 Hurtz, newB and other SQL fabricators that might have a few thoughts... please chime in. We need your expertise here.
swez on 06/2/2007 20:43:26
Have a good look at SoundStream's Reference Series 12's. These are solid SQL woofers and can be used well in sealed designs of 1.25 ft^3 enclosures:
Overview:
http://www.soundstream.com/subwoofers-reference.htm
Manual and Specs:
http://www.soundstream.com/manuals/2006/sbw/REFERENCE%20RFW%20SERICES.pdf
Swez
Ender2 on 06/2/2007 20:55:07
1.) Whatever you'd classify as me previously having is what I like, just more of it, or louder of it. I'd probably say SQL, but I really need it to hit HARD too.
2.) Why make it hard Swez? I'll just just build a "mini" enclosure of the fiber board and bondo it to the inside of existing enclosure Anything smaller than 11x11x11 (the last 11 still allows for 6" roughly of sub mounting room) can fit inside the existing subwoofer hole and can effectively eliminate .77ft³ of airspace per enclosure maximum, not to mention... In fact, let me do some quick math.
By placing a 8x10x10 fiber board box in the left enclosure we effectively reduce internal volume by 800in³ bringing the new volume to .997ft³.
By placing a 6x8x9 fiber board box in the passenger side enclosure we effectively reduce internal volume by 432in³ bringing the new volume to precisely 1ft³.
Is this so simple that it would actually work?
swez on 06/2/2007 21:05:36
I agree with the simplicity idea 100%.
The subs noted above are SQL subs and like a 1.25 ft^3 sealed (Qtc of 0.709) enclosure. For that matter, they would still sound very tight and good low end bass at a tad over 1.0 ft^3. (Qtc of ~0.85 something) The Fs will be a bit higher in a smaller box, but cabin gain effects will help with the deeper lows as well)
Whatever mods you can do to get to that level on both sides of this enclosure are definiately your call. A simple matter of adding a few boards of MDF to bring down the internal airspace is all that is needed.
Have a good look at the sub link in the last post and see if you like what you see. These are definitely SQL subs.
http://www.soundstream.com/manuals/2006/sbw/REFERENCE%20RFW%20SERICES.pdf
Swez
Ender2 on 06/3/2007 19:05:50
Swez's word is divine but I would like some other opinions, are these going to be able to put out some serious SPL at 600w RMS per sub?
One more question, is a 1/0 gauge wire really needed from the Battery to the trunk? It's going to be a pain to replace the existing 4gauge. :(
swez on 06/3/2007 21:02:32
Yes, these subs are designed with solid SQL performance at a price that is very affordable. I own a pair of the older SPL-10 series and find them very up to the task in the right enclosure.
Hey guys, give this guy a few more suggestions on other strong 4+4 SQL subs that will fit in his enclosure.
Yes, 1/0 wire is large, but to get full power transfer to your amps, this one is mission critical. This amp is rated for 120 A's alone. A #4 line is fine up to 80 A's. However, as the wire length gets past about 12 feet, the resistance in the wire goes up too. This resistance grabs power your amps need to operate at their best. In the worst case scenario, you could have a fire in the car by using too small a wire and pulling this much current.
FYI: One of our installers, (ttocs) was working on a car that someone else had wired up before. The power line was not adequate for the amperage draw and the insulation on this wire actually melted and left a nasty black line under the carpet. Parts of the carpeting were charred and could easily have caught fire in time. Don't let this happen to your ride!
Tech Tip: Since you already have a #4 line installed, it may be easier to use that #4 line as a "Puller line". Here, we attach a strong nylon cord to one end of the Puller Line and then attach the other end to the larger cable we wish to pull through the same pathway. As long as the pathway has enough room to accomodate the larger gage line, it can be pulled right through the original pathway. You may have to loosen some of the trim panels to help things along, but in many cases, that is not a big job.
You can then install a D-block near the amp(s) and use the #4 wire to feed your amp(s). A short length of #4 gage wire should be OK to feed this amp. (Under 6 feet is good)
BTW, I looked up the sub specs on your Eclipse SW6200's. The Vas spec, (2.0 ft^3) indicates these subs need a semi-compact sealed enclosure to survive high excursion power levels. Vas is the same volume of air that has the same mechanical resistance as the speaker's suspension system.
High SPL/SQL woofers have stiff woofer suspensions and very small Vas #'s. These work best in very compact enclosures. Loose suspension systems have larger Vas #'s and are designed for larger enclosures, but less power handling. This is why these subs are failing only on one side.
The Vas for the RFW 12" is 2.4 ft^3. This means that the sub can handle a larger enclosure and still take good power. This sub has an operating range of 0.75 - 1.25 ft^3 sealed. That's why I chose this sub and recommend about 1.0 ft^3 sealed enclosure as your target range. You'll get high power handling plus very good SQ. (A solid SQL sub for any price)
Yes, you can pay more for an exotic sub if it makes you feel better. I believe these retail for over $250.00/sub. However, since the market is soft for such products now, one can get some very competent subs at very attractive prices. Take advantage of such discounts when possible.
I would not steer you toward "CHUMP CHANGE" products. You know me much better than that by now right?
Swez
Ender2 on 06/4/2007 02:52:44
Heya Swez, would you see any advantage in my setup to use 2 TC9's found at
http://www.tcsounds.com/tc9.htm#diy
vs. the Soundstream RW-12's?
swez on 06/4/2007 06:55:49
The only parameter I would be concerned about here is the depth of this sub. (7.5") If you have enough depth to accomodate this sub, the T/S and power parameters fit your enclosure range. (0.8 - 1.4 ft^3)
One of the guys here, (newB) has just bought a pair and we are all waiting to see how they stand up to his application. On paper, these appear to be very competent subs. I would just like to see how they stack up in time regarding reliability and robustness.
Swez
Ender2 on 06/9/2007 18:47:16
What do you think about these Swez? in case I ever contemplate upgrading my amp?
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_5091_Hifonics+XX-2412+-+HSPL12+-.html
Victor on 06/9/2007 19:02:51
I would suggest a Cerwin Vega Stroker Pro 12 or 15" Sub if you are talking this league of woofers.....
http://cerwinvega.com/manuals/mobile/strokerpromanual.pdf
These are definite performing Subs with pretty impressive specs and noted performance too..
http://cerwinvega.com/manuals/mobile/VMAX_Sub_Manual.pdf
One more thing to add..
Just met the Soundstream Importer in India a month back and he was cribbing about a lot of warranty calls, the last batch imported to India had many warranty calls...
issues with the surrounds seperating either from the rim or the cone.. and lot of them had to be replaced under warranty... something as simple as a bad quality glue issue made them replace a lotta subs and speakers..
just a piece of info i have that i am sharing with you guys..
Victor...
kirchatndftbl on 06/9/2007 21:25:39
i have two of the reference 12`s in a ported box with a pca1000D and they sound nice hit every note, havent had any problems with them yet
30Hertz on 06/9/2007 21:37:31
I would check out Fi Car Audio BL series or the Q series 12s. The Qs are more SQ oriented but the BL series is more of a daily SPL sub. I dont have the parameters in front of me to tell you what the ^ft, or the power requirements are due to me being at work currently.
I'd also check out the Image Dynamix ID MAX series. I've heard alot of good reviews from these. Also check out RE Audio they have alot of models that should suit your needs nicely.
I tend to stray away from Soundstream and Hifonics. I know alot of people who have had alot of bad experiences with both brands. I'm not saying they dont work, just know more people with negative experiences than most other brands.
I can add more later
-30
swez on 06/9/2007 21:51:01
I would not choose the HiFonics subs noted either. The notation of a foam surround turned me off immediately as foam surrounds are not very robust for car audio environs. (Heat and UV will cause them to fail much faster than butyl rubber) Theu look like butyl rubber in the picture, but there are better subs out there in this league.
I would listen well to 30 Hertz and Victor's comments too. Both have extensive knowledge on newer SPL/SQL subs out there and custom enclosure needs as well. Yes, I can do pretty well for ya on the products I know, but these guys and newB have come up several new sub offerings I have no experience with.
Swez
Hunt_1 on 06/9/2007 22:01:41
I am running 4 Orion HP12D2 on an Orion 1200D (true 1200RMS)at 2 ohms.The H2 are nice but are kind of high.If you only need 2 you should check out the Orion HP12D4.
swez on 06/9/2007 22:17:11
Yes, those are pretty solid SQL subs too. Good thought there Hunt_1 and welcome to CK.
Swez
Also, I'm currently running a Directed Audio D2400 amp, and I'm looking to purchase some competition 12"s, two to be precise. This amp is a beast rated at 1,200w RMS @ 1 ohm, and I need something high quality that can handle this kind of power. My Eclipse SW6200's just weren't hacking at pushing a mere 300w per sub, I'm getting ready to send my second one back to the factory. Thanks in advance.
Ender
Replies (20)
swez on 06/2/2007 08:19:07
Welcome to CK Ender... it's about time you took the invite and came here to get some solid support from a great team of very talented guys.
OK, if I recall things right, you have a custom sealed box in the rear of this Camero. Knowing the internal airspace of this enclosure and the depth limits of your enclosure will help us guide you to a better setup in the next phase of your project. Knowing those limitations will help us point you to a new set of options and some strong subs that will meet the power needs of the amp you actually have here.
If memory servers me right, these amp are very strong at 2 ohm. (The 2400D is a monster) Have a look at this link and pull up the manual for the amp model you now have.
http://www.directedxtreme.com/support/owners.asp
I see a DA 2400 2 channel manual and the DA 2400D MONO sub amp. They are two vey different amps. Which one do you have now? Knowing this information is important as these amps are drastically different in power output, performance and power ratings. Neither of these amps are 1 ohm stable.
In short, before we can really help you, we need to know which amp you actually have. (Be very clear on the fact these models are very different and we need to know which one you actually have now)
Comments please,
Swez SMILE
Ender2 on 06/2/2007 13:10:42
I appreciate the concern Swez and yes you are accurate that it is a custom box. I can give an approximate mounting depth and Volume:
Depth : No less than 1.5'
Volume : Right around 2ft³
As far as which amplifier I have, you are perfectly correct in saying that I should definitely know which one I have. As far as the amp NOT being1 ohm stable, that is incorrect. The Actual amplifier I have is not either of these:
Directed Audio 2400D 2 Channel
Directed Audio 2400D Mono
But instead if you scroll futher down the page, or Hold Ctrl + F and type in D2400, you'll find my amp under the Directed Audio D1200, D2400 Owners Guide section.
Power Output: 400 Watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms and < 1% THD+N
Signal to Noise Ratio: -60 dBA (reference 1 Watt into 4 ohms)
Additional Power: 1200 Watts RMS x 1 at 1 ohm and < 1% THD+N
This amp will most certainly safely operate at 1 ohm, oh my I love the power.
I have grown quite tired of the quality of Craftsmanship from my current subwoofer(s) and furthermore rated at handling a mere 350w RMS or 1,000w peak means they just can't handle the kind of power I wish to drive to them, meaning it's time for a few new 12's, or I was also looking at the possibility of opening up the holes in the enclosure a little more and possible working with some 15's, I guess it all just depends on what you guys think is best. :)
Ender
Apprentice to Swez
Ender2 on 06/2/2007 14:47:35
3, 40 amp fuses, for a total of 120A.
Everyone asks this question when I say what the amp can do. :D
swez on 06/2/2007 16:06:27
Now we're getting somewhere. This is one well built amplifier sir!
http://www.directeddealers.com/manuals/og/directed_audio/G45105.110_06-05.pdf
OK, it can do 1 or 2 ohm loads per the specs and plenty of power at 1 ohm loads. (1200 watts RMS @ 1 ohm or 800 watts RMS @2 ohms) Pretty strong and likes a lot of current too huh?
OK, for a 1 ohm load, your subs need to be a pair of 4+4 DVC's, all coils wired in parallel. The sub power rating needed here is about 600 watts RMS per sub, give or take a few watts.
Power line for this amp should be 1/0 gage off the battery and and inline ANL 150-200A fuse system about 8-12" away from the battery. If this amp is coupled with another full range amp for your mids & highs, a solid D-block should be added that accepts 1/0 inputs and this amp can probably do OK with a very short length of #4 gage power and ground lines. (Under 3 feet each)
OK, we need to clarify the sealed chamber inner airspace for the subs. You said about 2 ft^3... is that per chamber or the aggregate for both subs?
Also, we will need to know the maximum mounting depth these chambers can handle regarding sub depth. If the subs use rear air vents, we need to allow adequate depth in the box to cool the subs. (If the air vent of a given sub is 1.5" dia, we must have 1.5" or more clearance behind the sub to the rear wall of the box)
Easy questions:
1. How deep are your Eclipse subs when measured from the lower lip to the bottom of the magnet structure?
2. How much clearance is there from the magnet to the back panel section of you box?
3. What is a rough price range per sub that you wish to pay?
OK Ender, the ball is back in your court, say more..
Swez
Ender2 on 06/2/2007 17:57:50
First of all, the enclosure is dual compartment, keeping the woofers totally separate, so for simplicities sake, we have have the Drivers Side Compartment, and Passenger side compartment.
Did a little math while determining Mounting depth for a few different things, I'll answer your questions before revealing the intel.
1.) The current subwoofers I use measure 6" from lower lip to the back of the sub (Magnet)
2.) Complicated answer. The subwoofers actually sit in at an angle and to make things worse the interior of the enclosure contains a slanted wall towards the top of the enclosure. Each compartment measures exactly 16" deep top to bottom, but from the angle of the slant of the woofers, and the slant of the interior, I'd say the Drivers side has a good solid 6" more to go before nearing the edge of it's compartment. The Passenger side is pretty close but I'd feel safer saying 5" for reasons explained in the latter section.
3.) I'm quite fed up with these eclipses breaking and I need something high quality; I'd say no less than $200-$300 per sub. $200 preferably, but if there's something spectacular for $100 more, just let me know, it's negotiable. Besides, they way I see it, even if I can only buy 1 subwoofer now, it'll damn near rival my two SW6200 pulling 300w RMS.
The fun stuff:
The enclosure volumes of the passenger side and driver side differ by .21ft³
Drivers Side sub enclosure : 1.46ft³
Passenger Side sub enclosure : 1.25ft³
Imagine if you will a big rectangular enclosure, and on the bottom right hand side of it, there's a large block of wood just sitting inside; this is what the passenger side enclosure looks like (for intents of describing why the volume is lower) while the driver's side enclosure does not have this cube.
Ironically enough, the same sub that messed up is the one that sat in the 1.46ft³ both times, which is much closer to the recommended sub enclosure of 1.50ft³ than other side which is still working fine.
swez on 06/2/2007 20:19:01
Excellent report... that's what I was looking for.
The lack of symmetry or a slight difference in chambers is part of the problem. That 1.46 ft^3 chamber would be the likely one to fail as the sub has more room to move w/o restrictions and hense, would fail at high power levels. Even if the sub is spec's at 1.5 ft^3, the one in the smaller chamber would have more air pressure to resist extreme cone excursions and that's why it did not fail. (Added back pressure helped it survive)
As for the depth issues at hand, it seems we can go up to 7.5 -8.0" in woofer depth and still be OK with mounting them and no problems here. Would you agree?
Tech tip: Many newer SQL 12" subs are designed for smaller, more compact sealed chambers, below 1.0 ft^3. This allows them to play tight and accurate bass with out excess boominess and flabby sounding lows. (poor definition at high SPL)
OK, a few more questions before we go on a full scale hunt for some new subs here.
1. Do you prefer SQ, (Very accurate bass) SQL (Accurate and clean but can play loud too) or SPL type bass? (Just plain loud and accuracy is not a big factor)
2. Do you see a way to modify the internal airspace of each chamber to reduce the inner airspace to a range more suitable to a given woofer spec? (1.0 - 1.25 ft^3 max)
This would not be polyfil as a filler in this case as it is too porous. It would need to be more rigid and have adequate density to reflect bass and not just absorb bass. But permit good tooling ability to shape and not add too much weight to volumn. (Something on the order of "Great Stuff" sealant/filler) But a tad more density.
A Bondo overcoat would be possible here as well. This stuff is very dense, can be tooled well in uncured state and shaped to some degree after cured as well.
Great Stuff expands a lot as it sets up and once cured, it's light in weight, but not so dense. A few top coats of fiberglass resin/hardener or bondo might do the trick after a full cure and shaping are done. Do you see what I am driving at? (A smaller pair of matched sealed enclosures within the custom enclosure you now have is what I am thinking about)
This is so hard to explain w/o pictures... words are so inadequate at times like this.
Comments?
Swez
PS Ash, 30 Hurtz, newB and other SQL fabricators that might have a few thoughts... please chime in. We need your expertise here.
swez on 06/2/2007 20:43:26
Have a good look at SoundStream's Reference Series 12's. These are solid SQL woofers and can be used well in sealed designs of 1.25 ft^3 enclosures:
Overview:
http://www.soundstream.com/subwoofers-reference.htm
Manual and Specs:
http://www.soundstream.com/manuals/2006/sbw/REFERENCE%20RFW%20SERICES.pdf
Swez
Ender2 on 06/2/2007 20:55:07
1.) Whatever you'd classify as me previously having is what I like, just more of it, or louder of it. I'd probably say SQL, but I really need it to hit HARD too.
2.) Why make it hard Swez? I'll just just build a "mini" enclosure of the fiber board and bondo it to the inside of existing enclosure Anything smaller than 11x11x11 (the last 11 still allows for 6" roughly of sub mounting room) can fit inside the existing subwoofer hole and can effectively eliminate .77ft³ of airspace per enclosure maximum, not to mention... In fact, let me do some quick math.
By placing a 8x10x10 fiber board box in the left enclosure we effectively reduce internal volume by 800in³ bringing the new volume to .997ft³.
By placing a 6x8x9 fiber board box in the passenger side enclosure we effectively reduce internal volume by 432in³ bringing the new volume to precisely 1ft³.
Is this so simple that it would actually work?
swez on 06/2/2007 21:05:36
I agree with the simplicity idea 100%.
The subs noted above are SQL subs and like a 1.25 ft^3 sealed (Qtc of 0.709) enclosure. For that matter, they would still sound very tight and good low end bass at a tad over 1.0 ft^3. (Qtc of ~0.85 something) The Fs will be a bit higher in a smaller box, but cabin gain effects will help with the deeper lows as well)
Whatever mods you can do to get to that level on both sides of this enclosure are definiately your call. A simple matter of adding a few boards of MDF to bring down the internal airspace is all that is needed.
Have a good look at the sub link in the last post and see if you like what you see. These are definitely SQL subs.
http://www.soundstream.com/manuals/2006/sbw/REFERENCE%20RFW%20SERICES.pdf
Swez
Ender2 on 06/3/2007 19:05:50
Swez's word is divine but I would like some other opinions, are these going to be able to put out some serious SPL at 600w RMS per sub?
One more question, is a 1/0 gauge wire really needed from the Battery to the trunk? It's going to be a pain to replace the existing 4gauge. :(
swez on 06/3/2007 21:02:32
Yes, these subs are designed with solid SQL performance at a price that is very affordable. I own a pair of the older SPL-10 series and find them very up to the task in the right enclosure.
Hey guys, give this guy a few more suggestions on other strong 4+4 SQL subs that will fit in his enclosure.
Yes, 1/0 wire is large, but to get full power transfer to your amps, this one is mission critical. This amp is rated for 120 A's alone. A #4 line is fine up to 80 A's. However, as the wire length gets past about 12 feet, the resistance in the wire goes up too. This resistance grabs power your amps need to operate at their best. In the worst case scenario, you could have a fire in the car by using too small a wire and pulling this much current.
FYI: One of our installers, (ttocs) was working on a car that someone else had wired up before. The power line was not adequate for the amperage draw and the insulation on this wire actually melted and left a nasty black line under the carpet. Parts of the carpeting were charred and could easily have caught fire in time. Don't let this happen to your ride!
Tech Tip: Since you already have a #4 line installed, it may be easier to use that #4 line as a "Puller line". Here, we attach a strong nylon cord to one end of the Puller Line and then attach the other end to the larger cable we wish to pull through the same pathway. As long as the pathway has enough room to accomodate the larger gage line, it can be pulled right through the original pathway. You may have to loosen some of the trim panels to help things along, but in many cases, that is not a big job.
You can then install a D-block near the amp(s) and use the #4 wire to feed your amp(s). A short length of #4 gage wire should be OK to feed this amp. (Under 6 feet is good)
BTW, I looked up the sub specs on your Eclipse SW6200's. The Vas spec, (2.0 ft^3) indicates these subs need a semi-compact sealed enclosure to survive high excursion power levels. Vas is the same volume of air that has the same mechanical resistance as the speaker's suspension system.
High SPL/SQL woofers have stiff woofer suspensions and very small Vas #'s. These work best in very compact enclosures. Loose suspension systems have larger Vas #'s and are designed for larger enclosures, but less power handling. This is why these subs are failing only on one side.
The Vas for the RFW 12" is 2.4 ft^3. This means that the sub can handle a larger enclosure and still take good power. This sub has an operating range of 0.75 - 1.25 ft^3 sealed. That's why I chose this sub and recommend about 1.0 ft^3 sealed enclosure as your target range. You'll get high power handling plus very good SQ. (A solid SQL sub for any price)
Yes, you can pay more for an exotic sub if it makes you feel better. I believe these retail for over $250.00/sub. However, since the market is soft for such products now, one can get some very competent subs at very attractive prices. Take advantage of such discounts when possible.
I would not steer you toward "CHUMP CHANGE" products. You know me much better than that by now right?
Swez
Ender2 on 06/4/2007 02:52:44
Heya Swez, would you see any advantage in my setup to use 2 TC9's found at
http://www.tcsounds.com/tc9.htm#diy
vs. the Soundstream RW-12's?
swez on 06/4/2007 06:55:49
The only parameter I would be concerned about here is the depth of this sub. (7.5") If you have enough depth to accomodate this sub, the T/S and power parameters fit your enclosure range. (0.8 - 1.4 ft^3)
One of the guys here, (newB) has just bought a pair and we are all waiting to see how they stand up to his application. On paper, these appear to be very competent subs. I would just like to see how they stack up in time regarding reliability and robustness.
Swez
Ender2 on 06/9/2007 18:47:16
What do you think about these Swez? in case I ever contemplate upgrading my amp?
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_5091_Hifonics+XX-2412+-+HSPL12+-.html
Victor on 06/9/2007 19:02:51
I would suggest a Cerwin Vega Stroker Pro 12 or 15" Sub if you are talking this league of woofers.....
http://cerwinvega.com/manuals/mobile/strokerpromanual.pdf
These are definite performing Subs with pretty impressive specs and noted performance too..
http://cerwinvega.com/manuals/mobile/VMAX_Sub_Manual.pdf
One more thing to add..
Just met the Soundstream Importer in India a month back and he was cribbing about a lot of warranty calls, the last batch imported to India had many warranty calls...
issues with the surrounds seperating either from the rim or the cone.. and lot of them had to be replaced under warranty... something as simple as a bad quality glue issue made them replace a lotta subs and speakers..
just a piece of info i have that i am sharing with you guys..
Victor...
kirchatndftbl on 06/9/2007 21:25:39
i have two of the reference 12`s in a ported box with a pca1000D and they sound nice hit every note, havent had any problems with them yet
30Hertz on 06/9/2007 21:37:31
I would check out Fi Car Audio BL series or the Q series 12s. The Qs are more SQ oriented but the BL series is more of a daily SPL sub. I dont have the parameters in front of me to tell you what the ^ft, or the power requirements are due to me being at work currently.
I'd also check out the Image Dynamix ID MAX series. I've heard alot of good reviews from these. Also check out RE Audio they have alot of models that should suit your needs nicely.
I tend to stray away from Soundstream and Hifonics. I know alot of people who have had alot of bad experiences with both brands. I'm not saying they dont work, just know more people with negative experiences than most other brands.
I can add more later
-30
swez on 06/9/2007 21:51:01
I would not choose the HiFonics subs noted either. The notation of a foam surround turned me off immediately as foam surrounds are not very robust for car audio environs. (Heat and UV will cause them to fail much faster than butyl rubber) Theu look like butyl rubber in the picture, but there are better subs out there in this league.
I would listen well to 30 Hertz and Victor's comments too. Both have extensive knowledge on newer SPL/SQL subs out there and custom enclosure needs as well. Yes, I can do pretty well for ya on the products I know, but these guys and newB have come up several new sub offerings I have no experience with.
Swez
Hunt_1 on 06/9/2007 22:01:41
I am running 4 Orion HP12D2 on an Orion 1200D (true 1200RMS)at 2 ohms.The H2 are nice but are kind of high.If you only need 2 you should check out the Orion HP12D4.
swez on 06/9/2007 22:17:11
Yes, those are pretty solid SQL subs too. Good thought there Hunt_1 and welcome to CK.
Swez
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