Is there any way to get a 2ohm load with 4 4ohm SVC speakers? I don't think there is, I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Replies (25)
swez on 05/25/2007 00:05:10
No Sir... the best you can do is a 1 or 4 ohm load.
In full parallel: 4/4 = 1 ohm
In series/parallel: 8/2 = 4 ohms
What are you contemplating here? Perhaps we can offer a suggestion or two to give you the best option possible. (Ie: If using Mid/Highs and a given amp, there may be some wiggle room) If using woofers only, it's pretty much a cut and dried scenario.
Say more OK?
Swez
Swez
gearhead on 05/25/2007 08:40:45
All woofers.
Bazooka RSA150.2HC
600w x 1@ 4ohm
1000w x 1@ 2ohm
500w x 2@ 1ohm
I'll just have to use 2 RSA75.2HC's
Thanks Swez
swez on 05/25/2007 09:11:41
Are you sure you want to use this Bazooka RSA150.2HC amp x 2 for this application? I believe you would be better served using 2 Class D amps here. (2 subs in parallel = 2 ohms per amp)
These are Class A/B High Current amps and fused at 70 A's per each. A Class D is more efficient with power draw VS output and often more reliable too. What woofers are you planning to use here GH? (Make & Model #?)
Swez
gearhead on 05/25/2007 10:17:57
I've only got 1 150.2.
I've got 2 of the 75.2's (600w x 1@ 2ohm, fused at 50A ea.).
Power draw isn't a problem/concern. I've got 3 regulated power supplies connected in parallel that will provide 375A@13.5v.
Woofers are
2- Infinity 1230's (12"/350wRMS)
2- Bazooka 1004's (10"/200wRMS)
All in separate sealed enclosures that are on the small side of the recommend size.
Yeah, I know. I shouldn't mix sub sizes. But hey, I'ts what I've got.
Mids/highs are:
"Front"- the Sony's we talked about earlier, 2 enclosures w/2- 6" round, 6ohm 45w ea., wired in parallel (3ohm load per enclosure)
"Rear"- Sony Explode 6x9 triaxials (you can quit laughing now GRIN)
Amp- Bazooka EL460 (65w x4@ 4ohm, 85w x 4@ 2ohm)
Pioneer DEH-2900MP
Pioneer CDX-FM687 6 CD changer
This is in my "garage", not a vehicle.
swez on 05/26/2007 11:18:00
Ahhh, never mind... I get the picture a bit better now and see that your garage system is indeed a serious collection of some very fine audio gear.
How do these Bazooka amps stack up to other brands you may have demo'd before? They look like something that get the job done well, on a tight budget.
Sony Explode 6x9 triaxials eh? Am sure this is a weak link to be addressed later. They might be OK in boxes for rear stage fill though. It's all about how one sets up their sound stage.
Swez
PS Where did you get such a hefty power supply for these amps?
gearhead on 05/26/2007 14:41:07
Well, the only other amps I'm able to compare the Bazooka's to are some Ample amps that I have. Both 4 channel amps (Bazooka EL 460/Ample A414X) are comparable in wattage, cost, and "features". The Ample looks a little better cosmetically and runs a little cooler, but I don't push the Ample nearly as hard as I push the Bazooka.
The Ample is in my car and is running 1 4ohm speaker on each channel (72w x 4@4ohm) and almost never gets turned up that loud.
The Bazooka is running the aforementioned Sony's (3ohm load on the front channels/ 4ohm load on the rears) and is routinely run at "high" volume levels.
Neither has ever gone into protect mode or shutdown.
I haven't had any problems with the Bazooka EL/ELA 2ch & mono amps I have. I did quite a bit of "research" on them, and the main thing I found out is that the vast majority of people that had "problems" with them weren't adhering to Bazooka's installation requirements (running them below their ohmage ratings, undersize power cable, improper gain settings, wtc.)
The Bazooka RSA HC series amps I have appear to be well made. I've got the 75.2's hooked up bridged to 2 subs each at @2ohms. They run a little warm (again, at relatively "high" volume levels for extended periods) but haven't gone into protect or shutdown after 3+ hrs at just below clipping.
For me, the Bazooka stuff is right up my alley. Prices are very reasonable ($50-$75 for the RSA amps, $15-$50 for the EL/ELA amps). I've also got a couple of their Euphonic Series component sets. These were pretty high end sets ($379 in 1993) when they originally came out, and recieved many accolades in car stereo magazines. I've gotten them for $70-$90/set, NOS still in the original packaging.
The power supplies I get on eBay. There is a seller with "perfect" feedback that sells Cosell power supplies (new & used) for $50-$125 ea.. You can connect up to 5 of them in parallel.
I also got my Kepco power supply on eBay for $100 (brand new still in the box, approx. $1300 retail)
Now I have another question. Is the output from the rear channels of a head unit the "same" as the output of front channels? What I mean is: would there be any difference in the sound/music from a set of front speakers then there would be from a set of rear speakers, all things being equal (fader-0, R/L-0, sub-off, bass boost-off, etc.)?
swez on 05/26/2007 17:07:03
Good info there GH... I can see you have done your homework and found a budget priced set of gear that works pretty good.
If the HU is calibrated properly, there should be the same voltage and signals off the rear channels as we get from the front. However, in most cars, the rear speakers tend to dominate the fronts as they are often high up on the rear deck and bounce off the rear window.
In the past, GM use to employ stock 10 ohm speakers in back and 4-5 ohm speakers in front, to obtain good F/R balancing. (That's about 4-6dB difference and we get pretty good control over the F/R stages this way)
As I have tinkered with a few car installs, I have noted that many vehicles that are amped, can get by very well on smaller amp power in the rear channels and as much power as the speakers can handle, for the front stage. When limited to small amps, use 2 ohm speaker kits in the front and 4 ohm speakers in the back. The 3dB difference between speakers is often enough to obtain very good results w/o massive power sucking amps or making too many tweak adjustments to achieve good F/R staging control.
Does that help?
Swez
trunkisloud on 05/26/2007 18:52:23
yea bazooka isnt too bad a product it think...im runnin a bazooka el1500 on my ed 15kv2 (yea the one i punched through) and its plenty of power.....
gearhead on 05/26/2007 19:36:12
The reason for the question about front/rear outputs: I'm thinking of using Y cables (or "splitting" the speaker level outputs) to run the 4 ch amp off of the HU front outputs, and using the HU rear outputs for the sub amps.
HU RF connected to RF & RR on 4ch amp
HU LF connected to LF & LR on 4ch amp
HU RR connected to one sub amp
HU LR connected to the other sub amp
Would that setup "work"? My reason? From what I can ascertain from the instruction manual for the HU, the rear channels are the ones with the all sub options.
swez on 05/27/2007 00:44:24
Yes, this HU offers a pair of 2.2 volt RCA outs. Front/Rear or Front/subs, depending on your preference. It's a tad low for splitting outputs, but most decent amps can reach full power potential at under 0.5 volts. (Depends on amp gain structure your amps provide)
Let me chew on this one overnight and come back with some possible options at hand OK? Went fishing tonight and am pretty pooped out from all the wading. When the mind is fresh and a few cups of Java are down the pipes, I can give you some solid suggestions to consider.
Are you oppossed to using LOC's off the HU amps or prefer to use an EQ/Line driver instead? Either will work out well. It just depends on your preferences and level of control to each amp in this configuration. I like the the EQ/LD option as most have 5-7 bands of EQ and more control over Master volume, fade and sub volume. This feature, EQ/LD offers a higher voltage to each amp channel used and a Master level control for all amps in the chain.
Swez
swez on 05/27/2007 09:49:12
OK, I'm awake now and let's see what other options can be used here for your system wiring.
1. The EQ/LD is a great option as your get 5-7 bands of EQ and 7-8 volts of line out voltage to feed outboard amps. This one has some nice features and if you shop off e-bay, am sure the price will be much better.
2. You can also try the "Y" splitter method off your HU. However, this HU is limited to a 2.2 volt output level off each RCA set. The voltage is the same when splitting when parallel wiring is used. (Most, if not all "Y" splitters are parallel) Try that first and see of you get what you get. If the amps need to be set below 1 volt on the sensitivity settings, that's fine.
3. Many of the newer amps offer full range preouts to "daisy chain" several amps together too. If your amps have this feature, try that too. This often eliminates the need for "Y" splitters.
As for signal filtering needs, let your amp crossovers do that work for you. The full range speakers can probably use 60-80 HPF settings and net very good results. If you note speaker popping at high SPL levels, adjust the crossovers to a higher setting. Set your sun LPF crossovers to match or slightly overlap the full range amp settings.
FYI: Subs can often help weak Midbass output on full range speakers if needed. This is done by setting the LPF between 80-150 Hz. (Extended range woofer settings) As long as we don't hear vocals or non-bass information in the subs, it should be OK. The higher the LPF settings, the more boomy/middy the sub(s) will sound. So, some careful tweaking is required as you do this stage.
Any more questions or comments... just ask as there is no such thing as a dumb question on this forum. (Within reason huh?)
Swez
gearhead on 05/27/2007 10:51:26
I don't think I really have any need for front/rear separation, since all the speakers are essentially on the same plane and inline. The left/right is spaced pretty far apart though. I have the speakers & subs on each side of the shop about 28ft apart and 8ft above the floor. Most of my "listening" is done from a distance of more than 10ft from the speakers.
The way I have things connected now is:
HU front & rear speaker level outputs to the speaker level inputs on the 4ch amp.
HU rear RCA's to both sub amps using Y cables.
Are these what you're talking about when you say EQ/LD?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-Digital-Equalizer-EQ-7000_W0QQitemZ120124772335QQihZ002QQcategoryZ48603QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/SOUNDSTREAM-PQ-7-BAND-PARAMETRIC-EQUALIZER-CROSSOVER-EQ_W0QQitemZ120123590415QQihZ002QQcategoryZ14931QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneed-EQ-6500-Graphic-Equalizer-NEVER-used_W0QQitemZ290120318335QQihZ019QQcategoryZ79841QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Kicker-9-Band-Equalizer-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ230132794232QQihZ013QQcategoryZ79841QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Don't forget that I can also use 110v/120v stuff (home audio)
Another question about my HU. If I set everything on the HU to "flat" (no bass boost, natural equalizer curve, subwoofer output ON, bass set to 0, etc.) I get NO output from my subs, even with the gains and bass boost on the amp maxed out. As soon as I move the bass setting to +1 I get good sub output. Any ideas/info/comments? The factory instruction/operation manual for this HU leaves a LOT to be desired as far as setup and use of the various functions.
If I'm getting to scattered with questions, just say so and I'll stick to one item at a time.
swez on 05/27/2007 12:25:48
OK, since this is not an "high def", well defined "concert seat" install, no real need for all the fancy "staging" gear. A 7-10 band EQ preamp is a real plus and you can use a 12 volt DC system or 120 Volt AC option is desired.
If you want accurate staging and Hi/Def listening in a given "sweet spot" for optimal imaging, (Home Theater apps) then these components would make sense. However, for just filling your working area with good quality sound, what you have now should do the trick.
This HU is limited in output selections. I would suggest using the rear channel RCA's with some bass boost so that you get good sub performance. Setting your tone contols to bring of the bass channels is what is needed.
Yes, you can run F/R channels as full range from the HU and use the HPF's in amps used to maximize Mid/Highs. If you find too much MB in the full range channels, use the gain controls and HPF's to dial in your best overall sound for Mid/Highs.
Once you have a good mix on your Mid/Highs, (Amp gains and HPF's) then bring up the sub amp gains and adjust the HU EQ features to drive up sub output as needed. This may take some extensive tweaking to get the right mix between Bass/Mids/Highs, but some patience and walk about listening will get ya home.
I know the drill here pretty well and use a combination of Home/Pro and Car audio gear to get the best mix possible. What makes this easier, have an older Crown IC-150 preamp to do most of the source mixing. It will handle up to 7 pairs of input devices. I then use a 10 band EQ to feed all amps used.
1. Yamaha 2050, (120 VAC) feeding a pair of Polk 7a's and some gerneric rear fill speakers in parallel.
2. Sub amp is an older JBL DA1002 bridged to a pair of 2x10" Soundstream subs in one corner. (12 volt car amp) I get +300 Wrms from this amp for the subs and it does offer plenty of low bass when desired. (Enough to annoy the neighbors) A very leaky garage/shop!
Yes, it's a hodge-podge system in some ways, but the SQL and mixing controls I get from the Crown IC -150 and EQ, make all the difference. If I just want good full range HI-Fi, SQL performance, it's there. However, to obtain HT quality and the "sweet spot" listening on Hi-Def HT performance, a 2nd 2 ch amp would be best for the rear fill speakers. Yes, I do have a 4 channel amp that can be added, (12 volt amp) but have not bothered as it just adds more expense and such to the system used now. To get that "sweet spot" affect, I have to set up seating to match and optimize. Have done this before and loved listening to Pink Floyd tracks with nice balance in the past, but my shop/garage is so full of other things now, I don't bother with it.
Where would you like to go with your present system? (Deficiencies and compensations for same?)
Swez
gearhead on 05/27/2007 12:50:38
I'm not overly concerned with the high definition/concert seating/HT aspect since I'm usually moving around quite a bit when I'm in the shop. My primary goal is clean LOUD music (when I want it loud) and being able to "adjust" the sound with the least amount of effort. The way I have things connected now, when I make an "adjustment" to the rear channels on the HU, it seems to affect the 6x9's AND the subs, which requires me to tweak the gains, crossovers, and bass boost on all 3 amps (rear channel adjustments of the 4ch amp, and both sub amps). That's why I'm wanting to run just the subs off of the HU rear channel. That way when I make a change to the HU rear channels, I'll only have to be concerned with the subs. Does that make an sense?
I'm also thinking that I might need to spend a few hours/days playing with all of the different functions/features on the HU to see just what can be accomplished with it. I just don't want to fry anything by connecting cables incorrectly.
gearhead on 05/27/2007 14:53:25
Well, I guess it's loud enough. GRIN GRIN I just had a visit from the local gendarmes saying they had recieved a complaint. I told em "No problem, I"ll turn it down a little".
swez on 05/27/2007 18:48:46
Yeah... I think it is louder outside the garage then we think it is inside. Although none have called the gendarmes on me, I had a friendly word from my neighbor on 2 occassions about the bass levels after 10:00 PM.
While in the garage, (all doors and windows closed) it sounds pretty modest at say 100 watts. But if I open a door and walk out say 50 feet from the garage, the bass carries much more than I thought it did. Even if I have all doors closed, at that time of night, things are so quiet in this neighborhood, the bass really comes through anyway. I learned my lesson and just shut the subs off after 10:00 PM.
I see your point on having to tweak and adjust a lot. If your system, (HU has a loudness contour feature) this can be a real pain with too much bass boost at low volumes and perhaps a bit too much boost in highs as well. As you crank up the HU volume, this feature should cut back on the auto-boost features and now, back to adjusting gains and such. (I know the drill)
Some careful reading about the HU options and such may be very helpful. There may be a few added features you can use to make things a bit less tedious along the way.
Swez
PS After a few beers, (Or just working away and losing track of time) it's very easy to get into the music and just dial up the volume on tunes we really like to hear loud. Then, looking at the clock... "OH CRAP"... it's after 10:00 PM and not the time to do SPL testing... LOL Yeah, have done that a time or two but no complaints as I dialed back on the SPL real fast. (Listening fatigue also tends to dull the hearing over time and that catches me once in a while too)
Thank God my neighbor is pretty hard of hearing at 83 years old. But if the music drowns out her watching the news, I'll probably hear about it.
gearhead on 05/29/2007 11:35:21
Well, I figured out what one of my problems is. Since I don't have a battery connected to my setup, every time I shut it off all of the HU settings return to the default settings. DOH! I've got figure out how to connect a battery to the system, without blowing up the battery.
swez on 05/29/2007 12:37:28
There ya go... the HU does need a constant 12 volt source to retain all settings. This can be done with a small 12 volt cell that can then be charged as needed by your power supplies. Or, just leave the power supply that feeds you HU on at all times. When wired properly off the REMote feeds, any amps or AUX devices will shut off with the HU being turned off.
Swez
gearhead on 05/29/2007 15:28:36
Will a battery act as a load on the power supply? What I mean is, if I connect a battery to the power supply, will the power supply try to pump 125A into the battery? These power supplies aren't battery chargers, so I don't know how they would respond to being connected to a 12v battery. I'm going hang gliding for the naxt couple of days, so I'll do some "research" on this when I get back.
swez on 05/29/2007 19:16:35
Yes, a battery that is below the power output ratings of your power supply, will act as a load.
We don't need a big battery to power the HU's Constant 12 volts at all times. The HU consumes well under 10 amperes of current at full power w/ all internal amplifiers running. However, if your model has a feature that allow one to turn off the internal amps, the current draw will be well under 3 amps. When the HU is switched off, it may draw well under 1 ampere of current.
Hummm... THINK.... Ah!!! A plug in Wall-wart power pack (12 volt AC/DC power converter) might work in this application with a blocking diode should work here and be a cheap solution too. The diode will block power from your big power supplies. (One way current flow only)
http://www.apogeekits.com/12v_dc_power_adapter.htm
Chew on it for a time and we'll chat again when you get back from the hang gliding trip... Wow, that sounds pretty cool with an element of danger too. Be careful mang!
Swez
gearhead on 06/8/2007 18:25:55
OK, I'm back. Didn't crash, but did get a little too much sun. Kids both went hang gliding and had a blast. Went to Disney World & Epcot while we were in the area too.
Here's what I would like to do, if possible.
I would like to use a small battery (motorcycle, etc.) so the HU will retain all of the settings when it's off.
I would like to leave the P/S's plugged in and use the HU to turn them on (the P/S's have remote control capability).
I would like the HU to run off of the P/S's once they are switched on.
I would use a Battery Tender (or a similar charger) to keep the small battery charged.
swez on 06/8/2007 19:43:40
Battery tender is a good idea and a small motorcycle battery will last a long time just to hold memory functions on the HU. This circuit is very low current and why I suggested a Wall-Wart.
The Constant power line on your HU is the main player here. (Often the yellow wire) As long as there is power to that circuit, all memory functions will remain in tact. Frankly, since these amps and P/S's have remote turn on features you can get from the HU, you may need to install a relay circuit to trigger all amps and P/S's. That will be easy and clean up your wiring Medusa as well.
As for powering the HU off the power supplies, (Once the P/S's are powered up) that would require blocking diode circuits. This gets a little more tricky and am not sure how to ground your system properly in this manner. Frankly, K.I.S.S. is always a good option. I would just run the HU off your small battery pack and keep the battery tender on it as needed. Leave the amps and P/S's as is, but add the remote turn on feature if you like.
A typical HU will only draw a few amps of current if you can shut off the internal HU amps. (2-5 ampers at most) If the amps cannot be disabled in this HU, current draw is well under 10 amperes when you push it. This option needs no diodes and only a relay to turn on your amps and P/S via the HU Remote. This too is a very low wattage line and the battery should be able to handle that too. (maybe 2 amps max)
What say you?
Swez
gearhead on 06/10/2007 12:24:34
Anyone know where I can get tinsel lead wire?
(Swez, is it OK if I use this thread for off-the-wall/ unrelated questions? That way I won't end up with a bunch of short board clogging threads).
swez on 06/10/2007 13:16:50
You can do this thread, but better to start a new one so others may offer suggestions too. If you don't wish to keep the post or threads going, I can delete them if you wish
Tinsel leads needed huh? That's a good question and I can only come up with 3 answers:
1. Contact the speaker Mfg and ask for spare parts
2. Salvage lead wires from a dead speaker
3. Find out who makes lead wires for speaker Mfg's and ask for a sample of "X" feet of same
This may help:
http://www.manufacturers.com.tw/showroom-6741-4-5-0000049748-3694.php
Swez
gudoxa on 06/11/2007 18:31:12
thanks swez
i was about to ask you about the same thing
my friends damage their subs a lot and the most common thing i see damage to is the spider and the tinsel leads(mostly burnt up)
i don't suppose you know where i can find voice coil at do you?
Replies (25)
swez on 05/25/2007 00:05:10
No Sir... the best you can do is a 1 or 4 ohm load.
In full parallel: 4/4 = 1 ohm
In series/parallel: 8/2 = 4 ohms
What are you contemplating here? Perhaps we can offer a suggestion or two to give you the best option possible. (Ie: If using Mid/Highs and a given amp, there may be some wiggle room) If using woofers only, it's pretty much a cut and dried scenario.
Say more OK?
Swez
Swez
gearhead on 05/25/2007 08:40:45
All woofers.
Bazooka RSA150.2HC
600w x 1@ 4ohm
1000w x 1@ 2ohm
500w x 2@ 1ohm
I'll just have to use 2 RSA75.2HC's
Thanks Swez
swez on 05/25/2007 09:11:41
Are you sure you want to use this Bazooka RSA150.2HC amp x 2 for this application? I believe you would be better served using 2 Class D amps here. (2 subs in parallel = 2 ohms per amp)
These are Class A/B High Current amps and fused at 70 A's per each. A Class D is more efficient with power draw VS output and often more reliable too. What woofers are you planning to use here GH? (Make & Model #?)
Swez
gearhead on 05/25/2007 10:17:57
I've only got 1 150.2.
I've got 2 of the 75.2's (600w x 1@ 2ohm, fused at 50A ea.).
Power draw isn't a problem/concern. I've got 3 regulated power supplies connected in parallel that will provide 375A@13.5v.
Woofers are
2- Infinity 1230's (12"/350wRMS)
2- Bazooka 1004's (10"/200wRMS)
All in separate sealed enclosures that are on the small side of the recommend size.
Yeah, I know. I shouldn't mix sub sizes. But hey, I'ts what I've got.
Mids/highs are:
"Front"- the Sony's we talked about earlier, 2 enclosures w/2- 6" round, 6ohm 45w ea., wired in parallel (3ohm load per enclosure)
"Rear"- Sony Explode 6x9 triaxials (you can quit laughing now GRIN)
Amp- Bazooka EL460 (65w x4@ 4ohm, 85w x 4@ 2ohm)
Pioneer DEH-2900MP
Pioneer CDX-FM687 6 CD changer
This is in my "garage", not a vehicle.
swez on 05/26/2007 11:18:00
Ahhh, never mind... I get the picture a bit better now and see that your garage system is indeed a serious collection of some very fine audio gear.
How do these Bazooka amps stack up to other brands you may have demo'd before? They look like something that get the job done well, on a tight budget.
Sony Explode 6x9 triaxials eh? Am sure this is a weak link to be addressed later. They might be OK in boxes for rear stage fill though. It's all about how one sets up their sound stage.
Swez
PS Where did you get such a hefty power supply for these amps?
gearhead on 05/26/2007 14:41:07
Well, the only other amps I'm able to compare the Bazooka's to are some Ample amps that I have. Both 4 channel amps (Bazooka EL 460/Ample A414X) are comparable in wattage, cost, and "features". The Ample looks a little better cosmetically and runs a little cooler, but I don't push the Ample nearly as hard as I push the Bazooka.
The Ample is in my car and is running 1 4ohm speaker on each channel (72w x 4@4ohm) and almost never gets turned up that loud.
The Bazooka is running the aforementioned Sony's (3ohm load on the front channels/ 4ohm load on the rears) and is routinely run at "high" volume levels.
Neither has ever gone into protect mode or shutdown.
I haven't had any problems with the Bazooka EL/ELA 2ch & mono amps I have. I did quite a bit of "research" on them, and the main thing I found out is that the vast majority of people that had "problems" with them weren't adhering to Bazooka's installation requirements (running them below their ohmage ratings, undersize power cable, improper gain settings, wtc.)
The Bazooka RSA HC series amps I have appear to be well made. I've got the 75.2's hooked up bridged to 2 subs each at @2ohms. They run a little warm (again, at relatively "high" volume levels for extended periods) but haven't gone into protect or shutdown after 3+ hrs at just below clipping.
For me, the Bazooka stuff is right up my alley. Prices are very reasonable ($50-$75 for the RSA amps, $15-$50 for the EL/ELA amps). I've also got a couple of their Euphonic Series component sets. These were pretty high end sets ($379 in 1993) when they originally came out, and recieved many accolades in car stereo magazines. I've gotten them for $70-$90/set, NOS still in the original packaging.
The power supplies I get on eBay. There is a seller with "perfect" feedback that sells Cosell power supplies (new & used) for $50-$125 ea.. You can connect up to 5 of them in parallel.
I also got my Kepco power supply on eBay for $100 (brand new still in the box, approx. $1300 retail)
Now I have another question. Is the output from the rear channels of a head unit the "same" as the output of front channels? What I mean is: would there be any difference in the sound/music from a set of front speakers then there would be from a set of rear speakers, all things being equal (fader-0, R/L-0, sub-off, bass boost-off, etc.)?
swez on 05/26/2007 17:07:03
Good info there GH... I can see you have done your homework and found a budget priced set of gear that works pretty good.
If the HU is calibrated properly, there should be the same voltage and signals off the rear channels as we get from the front. However, in most cars, the rear speakers tend to dominate the fronts as they are often high up on the rear deck and bounce off the rear window.
In the past, GM use to employ stock 10 ohm speakers in back and 4-5 ohm speakers in front, to obtain good F/R balancing. (That's about 4-6dB difference and we get pretty good control over the F/R stages this way)
As I have tinkered with a few car installs, I have noted that many vehicles that are amped, can get by very well on smaller amp power in the rear channels and as much power as the speakers can handle, for the front stage. When limited to small amps, use 2 ohm speaker kits in the front and 4 ohm speakers in the back. The 3dB difference between speakers is often enough to obtain very good results w/o massive power sucking amps or making too many tweak adjustments to achieve good F/R staging control.
Does that help?
Swez
trunkisloud on 05/26/2007 18:52:23
yea bazooka isnt too bad a product it think...im runnin a bazooka el1500 on my ed 15kv2 (yea the one i punched through) and its plenty of power.....
gearhead on 05/26/2007 19:36:12
The reason for the question about front/rear outputs: I'm thinking of using Y cables (or "splitting" the speaker level outputs) to run the 4 ch amp off of the HU front outputs, and using the HU rear outputs for the sub amps.
HU RF connected to RF & RR on 4ch amp
HU LF connected to LF & LR on 4ch amp
HU RR connected to one sub amp
HU LR connected to the other sub amp
Would that setup "work"? My reason? From what I can ascertain from the instruction manual for the HU, the rear channels are the ones with the all sub options.
swez on 05/27/2007 00:44:24
Yes, this HU offers a pair of 2.2 volt RCA outs. Front/Rear or Front/subs, depending on your preference. It's a tad low for splitting outputs, but most decent amps can reach full power potential at under 0.5 volts. (Depends on amp gain structure your amps provide)
Let me chew on this one overnight and come back with some possible options at hand OK? Went fishing tonight and am pretty pooped out from all the wading. When the mind is fresh and a few cups of Java are down the pipes, I can give you some solid suggestions to consider.
Are you oppossed to using LOC's off the HU amps or prefer to use an EQ/Line driver instead? Either will work out well. It just depends on your preferences and level of control to each amp in this configuration. I like the the EQ/LD option as most have 5-7 bands of EQ and more control over Master volume, fade and sub volume. This feature, EQ/LD offers a higher voltage to each amp channel used and a Master level control for all amps in the chain.
Swez
swez on 05/27/2007 09:49:12
OK, I'm awake now and let's see what other options can be used here for your system wiring.
1. The EQ/LD is a great option as your get 5-7 bands of EQ and 7-8 volts of line out voltage to feed outboard amps. This one has some nice features and if you shop off e-bay, am sure the price will be much better.
2. You can also try the "Y" splitter method off your HU. However, this HU is limited to a 2.2 volt output level off each RCA set. The voltage is the same when splitting when parallel wiring is used. (Most, if not all "Y" splitters are parallel) Try that first and see of you get what you get. If the amps need to be set below 1 volt on the sensitivity settings, that's fine.
3. Many of the newer amps offer full range preouts to "daisy chain" several amps together too. If your amps have this feature, try that too. This often eliminates the need for "Y" splitters.
As for signal filtering needs, let your amp crossovers do that work for you. The full range speakers can probably use 60-80 HPF settings and net very good results. If you note speaker popping at high SPL levels, adjust the crossovers to a higher setting. Set your sun LPF crossovers to match or slightly overlap the full range amp settings.
FYI: Subs can often help weak Midbass output on full range speakers if needed. This is done by setting the LPF between 80-150 Hz. (Extended range woofer settings) As long as we don't hear vocals or non-bass information in the subs, it should be OK. The higher the LPF settings, the more boomy/middy the sub(s) will sound. So, some careful tweaking is required as you do this stage.
Any more questions or comments... just ask as there is no such thing as a dumb question on this forum. (Within reason huh?)
Swez
gearhead on 05/27/2007 10:51:26
I don't think I really have any need for front/rear separation, since all the speakers are essentially on the same plane and inline. The left/right is spaced pretty far apart though. I have the speakers & subs on each side of the shop about 28ft apart and 8ft above the floor. Most of my "listening" is done from a distance of more than 10ft from the speakers.
The way I have things connected now is:
HU front & rear speaker level outputs to the speaker level inputs on the 4ch amp.
HU rear RCA's to both sub amps using Y cables.
Are these what you're talking about when you say EQ/LD?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-Digital-Equalizer-EQ-7000_W0QQitemZ120124772335QQihZ002QQcategoryZ48603QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/SOUNDSTREAM-PQ-7-BAND-PARAMETRIC-EQUALIZER-CROSSOVER-EQ_W0QQitemZ120123590415QQihZ002QQcategoryZ14931QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneed-EQ-6500-Graphic-Equalizer-NEVER-used_W0QQitemZ290120318335QQihZ019QQcategoryZ79841QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Kicker-9-Band-Equalizer-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ230132794232QQihZ013QQcategoryZ79841QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Don't forget that I can also use 110v/120v stuff (home audio)
Another question about my HU. If I set everything on the HU to "flat" (no bass boost, natural equalizer curve, subwoofer output ON, bass set to 0, etc.) I get NO output from my subs, even with the gains and bass boost on the amp maxed out. As soon as I move the bass setting to +1 I get good sub output. Any ideas/info/comments? The factory instruction/operation manual for this HU leaves a LOT to be desired as far as setup and use of the various functions.
If I'm getting to scattered with questions, just say so and I'll stick to one item at a time.
swez on 05/27/2007 12:25:48
OK, since this is not an "high def", well defined "concert seat" install, no real need for all the fancy "staging" gear. A 7-10 band EQ preamp is a real plus and you can use a 12 volt DC system or 120 Volt AC option is desired.
If you want accurate staging and Hi/Def listening in a given "sweet spot" for optimal imaging, (Home Theater apps) then these components would make sense. However, for just filling your working area with good quality sound, what you have now should do the trick.
This HU is limited in output selections. I would suggest using the rear channel RCA's with some bass boost so that you get good sub performance. Setting your tone contols to bring of the bass channels is what is needed.
Yes, you can run F/R channels as full range from the HU and use the HPF's in amps used to maximize Mid/Highs. If you find too much MB in the full range channels, use the gain controls and HPF's to dial in your best overall sound for Mid/Highs.
Once you have a good mix on your Mid/Highs, (Amp gains and HPF's) then bring up the sub amp gains and adjust the HU EQ features to drive up sub output as needed. This may take some extensive tweaking to get the right mix between Bass/Mids/Highs, but some patience and walk about listening will get ya home.
I know the drill here pretty well and use a combination of Home/Pro and Car audio gear to get the best mix possible. What makes this easier, have an older Crown IC-150 preamp to do most of the source mixing. It will handle up to 7 pairs of input devices. I then use a 10 band EQ to feed all amps used.
1. Yamaha 2050, (120 VAC) feeding a pair of Polk 7a's and some gerneric rear fill speakers in parallel.
2. Sub amp is an older JBL DA1002 bridged to a pair of 2x10" Soundstream subs in one corner. (12 volt car amp) I get +300 Wrms from this amp for the subs and it does offer plenty of low bass when desired. (Enough to annoy the neighbors) A very leaky garage/shop!
Yes, it's a hodge-podge system in some ways, but the SQL and mixing controls I get from the Crown IC -150 and EQ, make all the difference. If I just want good full range HI-Fi, SQL performance, it's there. However, to obtain HT quality and the "sweet spot" listening on Hi-Def HT performance, a 2nd 2 ch amp would be best for the rear fill speakers. Yes, I do have a 4 channel amp that can be added, (12 volt amp) but have not bothered as it just adds more expense and such to the system used now. To get that "sweet spot" affect, I have to set up seating to match and optimize. Have done this before and loved listening to Pink Floyd tracks with nice balance in the past, but my shop/garage is so full of other things now, I don't bother with it.
Where would you like to go with your present system? (Deficiencies and compensations for same?)
Swez
gearhead on 05/27/2007 12:50:38
I'm not overly concerned with the high definition/concert seating/HT aspect since I'm usually moving around quite a bit when I'm in the shop. My primary goal is clean LOUD music (when I want it loud) and being able to "adjust" the sound with the least amount of effort. The way I have things connected now, when I make an "adjustment" to the rear channels on the HU, it seems to affect the 6x9's AND the subs, which requires me to tweak the gains, crossovers, and bass boost on all 3 amps (rear channel adjustments of the 4ch amp, and both sub amps). That's why I'm wanting to run just the subs off of the HU rear channel. That way when I make a change to the HU rear channels, I'll only have to be concerned with the subs. Does that make an sense?
I'm also thinking that I might need to spend a few hours/days playing with all of the different functions/features on the HU to see just what can be accomplished with it. I just don't want to fry anything by connecting cables incorrectly.
gearhead on 05/27/2007 14:53:25
Well, I guess it's loud enough. GRIN GRIN I just had a visit from the local gendarmes saying they had recieved a complaint. I told em "No problem, I"ll turn it down a little".
swez on 05/27/2007 18:48:46
Yeah... I think it is louder outside the garage then we think it is inside. Although none have called the gendarmes on me, I had a friendly word from my neighbor on 2 occassions about the bass levels after 10:00 PM.
While in the garage, (all doors and windows closed) it sounds pretty modest at say 100 watts. But if I open a door and walk out say 50 feet from the garage, the bass carries much more than I thought it did. Even if I have all doors closed, at that time of night, things are so quiet in this neighborhood, the bass really comes through anyway. I learned my lesson and just shut the subs off after 10:00 PM.
I see your point on having to tweak and adjust a lot. If your system, (HU has a loudness contour feature) this can be a real pain with too much bass boost at low volumes and perhaps a bit too much boost in highs as well. As you crank up the HU volume, this feature should cut back on the auto-boost features and now, back to adjusting gains and such. (I know the drill)
Some careful reading about the HU options and such may be very helpful. There may be a few added features you can use to make things a bit less tedious along the way.
Swez
PS After a few beers, (Or just working away and losing track of time) it's very easy to get into the music and just dial up the volume on tunes we really like to hear loud. Then, looking at the clock... "OH CRAP"... it's after 10:00 PM and not the time to do SPL testing... LOL Yeah, have done that a time or two but no complaints as I dialed back on the SPL real fast. (Listening fatigue also tends to dull the hearing over time and that catches me once in a while too)
Thank God my neighbor is pretty hard of hearing at 83 years old. But if the music drowns out her watching the news, I'll probably hear about it.
gearhead on 05/29/2007 11:35:21
Well, I figured out what one of my problems is. Since I don't have a battery connected to my setup, every time I shut it off all of the HU settings return to the default settings. DOH! I've got figure out how to connect a battery to the system, without blowing up the battery.
swez on 05/29/2007 12:37:28
There ya go... the HU does need a constant 12 volt source to retain all settings. This can be done with a small 12 volt cell that can then be charged as needed by your power supplies. Or, just leave the power supply that feeds you HU on at all times. When wired properly off the REMote feeds, any amps or AUX devices will shut off with the HU being turned off.
Swez
gearhead on 05/29/2007 15:28:36
Will a battery act as a load on the power supply? What I mean is, if I connect a battery to the power supply, will the power supply try to pump 125A into the battery? These power supplies aren't battery chargers, so I don't know how they would respond to being connected to a 12v battery. I'm going hang gliding for the naxt couple of days, so I'll do some "research" on this when I get back.
swez on 05/29/2007 19:16:35
Yes, a battery that is below the power output ratings of your power supply, will act as a load.
We don't need a big battery to power the HU's Constant 12 volts at all times. The HU consumes well under 10 amperes of current at full power w/ all internal amplifiers running. However, if your model has a feature that allow one to turn off the internal amps, the current draw will be well under 3 amps. When the HU is switched off, it may draw well under 1 ampere of current.
Hummm... THINK.... Ah!!! A plug in Wall-wart power pack (12 volt AC/DC power converter) might work in this application with a blocking diode should work here and be a cheap solution too. The diode will block power from your big power supplies. (One way current flow only)
http://www.apogeekits.com/12v_dc_power_adapter.htm
Chew on it for a time and we'll chat again when you get back from the hang gliding trip... Wow, that sounds pretty cool with an element of danger too. Be careful mang!
Swez
gearhead on 06/8/2007 18:25:55
OK, I'm back. Didn't crash, but did get a little too much sun. Kids both went hang gliding and had a blast. Went to Disney World & Epcot while we were in the area too.
Here's what I would like to do, if possible.
I would like to use a small battery (motorcycle, etc.) so the HU will retain all of the settings when it's off.
I would like to leave the P/S's plugged in and use the HU to turn them on (the P/S's have remote control capability).
I would like the HU to run off of the P/S's once they are switched on.
I would use a Battery Tender (or a similar charger) to keep the small battery charged.
swez on 06/8/2007 19:43:40
Battery tender is a good idea and a small motorcycle battery will last a long time just to hold memory functions on the HU. This circuit is very low current and why I suggested a Wall-Wart.
The Constant power line on your HU is the main player here. (Often the yellow wire) As long as there is power to that circuit, all memory functions will remain in tact. Frankly, since these amps and P/S's have remote turn on features you can get from the HU, you may need to install a relay circuit to trigger all amps and P/S's. That will be easy and clean up your wiring Medusa as well.
As for powering the HU off the power supplies, (Once the P/S's are powered up) that would require blocking diode circuits. This gets a little more tricky and am not sure how to ground your system properly in this manner. Frankly, K.I.S.S. is always a good option. I would just run the HU off your small battery pack and keep the battery tender on it as needed. Leave the amps and P/S's as is, but add the remote turn on feature if you like.
A typical HU will only draw a few amps of current if you can shut off the internal HU amps. (2-5 ampers at most) If the amps cannot be disabled in this HU, current draw is well under 10 amperes when you push it. This option needs no diodes and only a relay to turn on your amps and P/S via the HU Remote. This too is a very low wattage line and the battery should be able to handle that too. (maybe 2 amps max)
What say you?
Swez
gearhead on 06/10/2007 12:24:34
Anyone know where I can get tinsel lead wire?
(Swez, is it OK if I use this thread for off-the-wall/ unrelated questions? That way I won't end up with a bunch of short board clogging threads).
swez on 06/10/2007 13:16:50
You can do this thread, but better to start a new one so others may offer suggestions too. If you don't wish to keep the post or threads going, I can delete them if you wish
Tinsel leads needed huh? That's a good question and I can only come up with 3 answers:
1. Contact the speaker Mfg and ask for spare parts
2. Salvage lead wires from a dead speaker
3. Find out who makes lead wires for speaker Mfg's and ask for a sample of "X" feet of same
This may help:
http://www.manufacturers.com.tw/showroom-6741-4-5-0000049748-3694.php
Swez
gudoxa on 06/11/2007 18:31:12
thanks swez
i was about to ask you about the same thing
my friends damage their subs a lot and the most common thing i see damage to is the spider and the tinsel leads(mostly burnt up)
i don't suppose you know where i can find voice coil at do you?
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